522. Five Books that Rocked my World with Agatha Andrews from She Wore Black Podcast

[music]

Sarah Wendell: Hello and welcome to episode number 522 of Smart Podcast, Trashy Books. I am Sarah Wendell, and today my guest is Agatha Andrews. Agatha is the host of the She Wore Black podcast, which focuses on Gothic and horror, and Agatha’s a former librarian. I was a guest on her show back in July, and now she is coming to visit with me. Basically, horror and romance need to hang out, so we did. We’re going to make book recommendations; we’re going to talk about readers’ advisory and all the ways we connect books to readers. Please stay tuned to the end when she requests some help finding a very niche kind of book.

I will have links to all of the books that we mention, and there are many, in the show notes at smartbitchestrashybooks.com/podcast.

Hello and thank you to the Patreon community. How are you? You’re looking fabulous today. Thank you so much for your support of the show. Every pledge helps me keep going, makes sure that every episode has a transcript – thank you, garlicknitter! [You’re welcome! – gk] If you would like to join our Patreon, please have a look at patreon.com/SmartBitches.

This episode is brought to you in part by Caraway Home. It has been a little over a month since we got our new set of Caraway Home cookware, and, wow – wow! – do we both love it. Our pots and pans were pretty old; they might have been from before our wedding, so at least twenty-two years old; and the nonstick did not do the nonstick, and we both cook a lot, so our pots and pans get a lot of use. We ordered the entire cookware set in navy, and they’re gorgeous. There’s a fry pan, a sauté pan, a sauce pan, and a Dutch oven with lids, and they come with storage. It’s like they know me. Every set comes with these little slots so that, like, each pan has its own little house; it’s so great. But in terms of how they cook, they’re fantastic. Adam and I both cook nearly every night, and we put our cookware through a lot. I’ve scrambled eggs; I’ve simmered soup; I’ve fried chicken. Everything has come out perfectly. The pans heat up evenly, they hold a low simmer with no problem, and clean up is amazing. Remember how I said my old cookware nonstick was no longer nonstick? This has solved all of the clean up issues; clean up is so simple. Over twenty-five thousand people have raved about their Caraway kitchen, and you can try it for yourself! We both recommend it over here at Chez Wendell. Visit carawayhome.com/SARAH to take advantage of this limited-time offer of ten percent off your next purchase. This deal is exclusive for our listeners, so visit carawayhome.com/SARAH or use code SARAH at checkout. Caraway: non-toxic cookware made modern.

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All right, you ready to talk books, horror, Gothic, and the overlap between those genres and romance? Let’s do this thing: on with my conversation with Agatha Andrews.

[music]

Agatha Andrews: I am Agatha Andrews, and I spent many years as a bookseller and librarian, but now I am the host of the She Wore Black podcast, and I’m feeling quite fancy to be on Smart Bitches, Trashy Books today.

Sarah: Aw, thank you!

Agatha: [Laughs]

Sarah: What led to you starting a podcast?

Agatha: Well – oh boy – so I was one of those sad Violet Gaze writers that needed a home last year whenever – [laughs] – whenever Violet Gaze went away, if you will, suddenly? And I was, you know, I, I was trying to get my rights back to my stories, and I actually had a Texas history podcast under a different name, and I just said, you know what? I, I miss connecting books to readers, I’ve been staying home from being a librarian for a long time, and sometimes Texans don’t like to hear actual Texas history? And so that got less fun to do. [Laughs]

Sarah: The devil you say!

Agatha: So lots of people appreciate it, about fifty percent of Texans appreciate it, but the other fifty percent are unpleasant. So I decided, you know, books –

Sarah: Yeah.

Agatha: – I’m going back to books. Yeah.

Sarah: And it’s a particular joy, right, to connect readers with books that they, they might like?

Agatha: It’s a high. It’s a high that I get. I, it was the, you know, readers’ advisory is, is what it’s called whenever you’re grilling your patrons or your customers about, well, what is it that you like? And especially when it’s angsty teens coming in going, I hate books; I have to pick something for class. And you’re like, I understand, dude; you just have not connected with whatever it is that you’re into, because I don’t like all books! I don’t like all movies! Like, you don’t have to like every song that’s out. It’s all the same! And so it’s just kind of connecting readers to, or connecting books to readers that, that will want them and finding joy in people just getting excited about it.

Sarah: I mean, it’s a fundamental part of humans, right? We tell stories? And then we like to hear stories? We like to hear stories about other people?

Agatha: Yes!

Sarah: There’s a whole industry about that, and in my experience I’ve, I’ve encountered some people who think that librarians are only supposed to recommend books that are the literary equivalent of lots of bran.

Agatha: I’m so ex-, I’m so excited to talk about that, because –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Agatha: – it’s –

Sarah: It’s so annoying!

Agatha: – the worst!

Sarah: It’s so annoying!

Agatha: It’s the worst! And the thing –

Sarah: Like, you are not a gatekeeper and arbiter of what is quality, for God’s sake!

Agatha: It is, that is, I mean, let me just tell you, Sarah, we had a public librarian when I was a branch manager in a public library, and I should probably keep this in my pocket for a future story or something, but, like, our oldest senior citizen librarian had a box of books under her desk that was not catalogued because they were way too erotic. Like, they were erotica with, like, fairies and, like, all kinds of wonderful things that people would donate.

Sarah: Wait, I bet I know what book this is.

Agatha: Yeah! She would, she, and she, they were things that she wanted to, like, keep around ‘cause she knew that people would want them, and it was called the Naughty Box, and so, like, ladies would come in asking for the Naughty Box. Like, you have no idea what librarians are really up to as far as, like, in a good way. Like, we’re talking –

Sarah: The Naughty Box.

Agatha: But those were not things being passed around to kids. I think the current banning book phenomenon would try to have you think, oh, we’re handing these out to five-year-olds. We were handing them out to other senior citizen ladies that just had already read everything else. [Laughs]

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Agatha: So whenever, I mean, being a librarian in Texas was interesting in the early aughts.

Sarah: [Laughs] I’m sorry! That might need an award –

Agatha: Yeah. [Laughs]

Sarah: – for understatement. “Being a librarian –“

Agatha: Listen –

Sarah: “– in Texas was interesting.” And I want you to know that not only did I grow up in the Midwest, but I went to a college in South Carolina, and I’m fully aware of all of the permutations of “interesting.” Well, well said.

Agatha: Listen –

Sarah: Well Said.

[Laughter]

Agatha: Listen, one of the things that people need to remember about Texas is that we’re not a monolith.

Sarah: No!

Agatha: We are, we are a very gerrymandered and voter-oppressed state, so –

Sarah: Yes.

Agatha: – like, we actually sent more of blue voters to the polls in the last election than every other state but New York.

Sarah: Yep!

Agatha: So people need to remember that that happened despite them, like, closing polls in high populated urban areas; the gerrymandering is so scientifically profoundly grotesque that there’s entire books and NPRs and stories on it and, like, it’s so precise, so, that we have them as – it’s bonkers, Sarah, how, how badly we’re gerrymandered. So I want people to remember that when they hear Texas being Texas, it’s like the Florida Man? It’s like that’s, that’s really not – [laughs] – we’re so diverse. You know, we’re such a diverse place, but anyway.

Sarah: Lot of blueberries! Lots and lots of blueberries floating in your tomato soup there. Lots of blueberries.

Agatha: Yes, exactly! Exactly. Well, we, you know, being a librarian in Texas was interesting – [laughs] – because, you know, people would try to think that addressing diversity, all you needed to do was whip out the same five books for every Black History Month or, or –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Agatha: – you know, Hispanic Heritage Month or whatever, and I’m like, it was always, for, like, Black History Month it was always like – no joke – like Bill Cosby and Oprah biographies and like the same five things, and I’m like, you have so much you can pull from. Brace yourself: for Hispanic Heritage Month I had to tell other librarians to stop putting out biographies on like Ricardo Montalbán for people that, like, I was like, these children have never even heard of Fantasy Island. Like, stop that! [Laughs] There’s so much diversity in your own state of our people, like, what are you doing? I mean, they put out Cameron Diaz biographies and think they covered – you know, so I had to start giving professional workshops on, like, what diversity should really look like –

Sarah: Holy crap.

Agatha: – but I think it’s so much better now. That was twenty years ago –

Sarah: Yeah, absolutely.

Agatha: – I think it’s a lot better now, and, you know, it, it took some work, but I think we’re definitely, definitely getting there.

Sarah: So what led you to starting your podcast and focusing on –

Agatha: Ooh, yeah!

Sarah: – horror and mystery? Because, I mean, I love that this exists; I love your show so much.

Agatha: Thank you! Thank you!

Sarah: I love any show that takes a deep, embracing dive into a particular style of book, and there’s a, there’s, I mean, there’s a lot to cover for you. There’s a lot there.

Agatha: Well, like I said, I was sort of, kind of, you know, everything happened with Violet Gaze, and I don’t really want to talk about that very much, but I do, I did find myself like, what am I going to do? You know, I, and so I just kind of made the switch from the Texas history, ‘cause that was kind of like a fun hobby?

Sarah: Yeah.

Agatha: You know, to something where I could find, where I could revisit connecting readers with books and while I figured out what was going on with my own writing, and the reason why I chose, I really lean hard on Gothic because –

Sarah: Oh yeah!

Agatha: – as a romance writer, I was a Gothic romance writer.

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Agatha: So I lean into my podcast, in, into Gothic really deeply in my podcast, but I do mystery and horror because all those three things really kind of go together?

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Agatha: You know.

Sarah: That’s a very, that’s a very –

Agatha: Yeah!

Sarah: – fuchsia Venn diagram: you got a little pink, got a little purple, got a little blue. It, there’s a lot –

Agatha: Yeah!

Sarah: – going on in there.

Agatha: And I feel like Gothic is almost having a moment, and so I really was excited about it, and I also – so there were some really fabulous ladies with, doing horror podcasts, and I was not trying to replicate that, because they’re able to talk about elements of horror that I’m not? Like, I don’t really know splatterpunk or I don’t really do, do slasher or anything, and there’s nothing wrong with those things! I just don’t have the language to talk about those things because they’re not my things!

Sarah: Absolutely!

Agatha: I’m, I’m very Gothic with my interests and, like, I remember your show about, with Diana Biller or, like, talking about The Widow of Rose House; you and Amanda were sort of like in love with that book, and I’m like, yes, that’s me! [Laughs] So, where I can have my ghosts; have a little, like, maybe sexiness in there; maybe have some mystery elements; and I love Sherry Thomas and, and that kind of thing, so – and also I’m, you know, being Latina, I just wanted to have a space where I could talk about all of those things that I love, but also talk about those things either from my point of view or with, you know, just being a person of color, just mattered to me to also have that voice out there.

Sarah: Absolutely! And nothing happens in a vacuum. No genre becomes popular without any connectivity to what is happening around it.

Agatha: Well, and look at, look at everything happening with, like, Isabel Cañas right now and The Hacienda and, you know, a Mexican Gothic and all of that, and I’m like, yes! It’s my time! [Laughs]

Sarah: Oh my gosh! And it’s, it’s like, wow! Wait a minute: obviously, obviously Mexican Gothic! I mean –

Agatha: Yeah.

Sarah: – even within different subcultures within Mexico, there is so much of an active culture of ghosts and ancestry and the past, and the past is kind of perilous –

Agatha: A little bit.

Sarah: – and there’s a lot of colonialism. Like, there’s a whole bunch of shit that’s menacing from the past moving into the present, which is one of the hallmarks of Gothic, right? Like –

Agatha: Yeah, yeah!

Sarah: – of course Mexican, of course!

Agatha: I mean, Silvia Moreno-Garcia’s been out there doing the thing, and what I love about her is she just kind of writes whatever she feels like in the moment. It’s not necessarily like she sticks to one –

Sarah: Yep.

Agatha: You know how authors will sort of have a brand a lot of times? She just –

Sarah: Sure!

Agatha: – she writes like, okay, I’m going to write a, a Regency romance, or I’m going to write a vampire novel, or I’m going to write, you know, a good Gothic horror, something – but she’s so good at her craft –

Sarah: Oh, she’s so good.

Agatha: – she can master all those things.

Sarah: So tell me about some books that rocked your world. I love asking this questions to, I love asking this question to librarians and bloggers and podcasters because you don’t spend the amount of time that it takes to create a podcast about books without having some books that really speak to your soul, and that, those books are always different for different people, so tell me, past, present, future, tell me about the books that rocked your world.

Agatha: Well, the very first one was so easy for me to come up with to talk to you about. I talked about it on my episode with Isabel Cañas, and it’s actually something that the Austin History Center has recorded as an oral history for part of an oral history project.

Sarah: That’s so cool! Congratulations!

Agatha: Well, thank you!

Sarah: Fuck yeah! Look at you, leaving your imprint on Texas history!

Agatha: [Laughs] I do what I can! So it came up –

Sarah: Fuck yeah!

Agatha: It’s Like Water for Chocolate by Laura Esquivel. My mom was very, she struggled when I was growing up to find, I mean, you know, it was the ‘70s and the ‘80s. I’m, I’m forty-eight years old, so I’m firmly in Gen X, you know. [Laughs]

Sarah: Hi, I just turned forty-seven on Monday, so I’m in there with you.

Agatha: Yes! I, I, I actually knew that you were right there with me –

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Agatha: – ‘cause I listen to your show.

[Laughter]

Agatha: And I was like, she’s going to know all my references.

Sarah: Absolutely! I love this book because I read it both in Spanish and in English.

Agatha: Oh, you’re so much fancier than I am! [Laughs]

Sarah: I was in for Spanish class, but, like, I was like, wait, this is so fun! I’ve already read this; I know this story, but I don’t know all these words, so now I get to, to find out –

Agatha: Yeah!

Sarah: – the original language that it was published in and understand all of the nuances that don’t happen in – oh, I love this book so much. Tell me everything.

Agatha: Well, so, when I was little, my mother really struggled to find representation for me at all.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Agatha: She really worked hard to, so that I wouldn’t – you know, when I was growing up we were supposed to be nothing. We weren’t supposed to necessarily, we weren’t supposed to know Spanish, we weren’t supposed to – and, you know, my mom tried to show me those things, but socially, in order to survive, I had to just be nothing. And so she really struggled to fight against that and, and the pressure that I was feeling, like, from teachers? Or from society at large and not seeing representation, so she would look for toys, and there were no brown toys or brown dolls or anything, so I either had African-American dolls or blonde ones, and finding a brunette was a big deal, you know? [Laughs] And so she tried, and, and in books, forget it. This was her white whale, you know. So whenever Sandra Cisneros started writing, my mom was into her, but I was so immersed in trying to please my teachers and not – because you had to be extra. In the ‘70s and ‘80s, you had to be, you had to work twice as hard so that your teachers wouldn’t dismiss you and just write you off as a student, and so I’m reading all of that bullshit Dostoevsky and shit we’re supposed to read, right?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Agatha: So – [laughs] – Mom is all enjoying herself with some Sandra Cisneros, and I’m like, I don’t know; I don’t have time. And then I transferred into the University of Texas, and I had been to Austin enough to know, like, I’m a hermit and I’m feeling very awkward trying to assimilate into this dorm like, uh, let me just go to BookPeople. [Laughs] And I, you know, I, I, I’m going to go hide in the bookshelves, right? That, that’s what we introverted book people do, right? And I came across Like Water for Chocolate, and you might remember, since you are Gen X, you might remember the movie poster with the hotties on it?

Sarah: Ohhh yeah.

Agatha: Like, the movie had just come out.

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Agatha: They were beautiful! Like, every single person in that movie, and so, you know, when you’re nineteen years old you’re just sitting here going, well, I might want to – [laughs] – I might want to read the book with the beautiful people! And so I picked it up and I read it in two days –

Sarah: Oh wow!

Agatha: – and I had never done that before! And I just went down a rabbit hole of, like, oh my gosh! Who are other Latina writers? And I –

Sarah: Yeah, yeah.

Agatha: – I, for the first time, felt proud and like I had a place in this world and like, oh! We write! We’re artists! We’re all of these things, you know, and I had no idea! I now was so excited. Mom had worked so hard to try to impress that upon me, but sometimes you just have to figure it out for yourself.

Sarah: Yeah. As a, as a parent of teenagers, they don’t like it when I tell them things, but then when something that –

Agatha: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – happens in the outside world agrees with what I’ve said they’re like, wow! You were right!

Agatha: [Laughs]

Sarah: I’m like, yes, it happens a lot. You just missed it. [Laughs]

Agatha: Yeah, yeah. That would happen when I was a high school librarian, too. Like, if a, if a kid came in with a mohawk and, and a Misfits shirt, and I’m like, next year you’re going to like rockabilly, and they’re like, you don’t know! And I’m like, I always know, and of course they’d come in all rockabilly next year going, how did you know? And I’m like, I just know these things. It’s the natural progression! You go –

Sarah: Yep.

Agatha: – punk to rockabilly; it’s how it works! [Laughs] We know weird things, don’t we?

Sarah: We really do. And the older you get, the more you see the, the patterns and the cycles of things? Like, oh, this is happening! Okay, so here’s what’s next. All right, get ready.

Agatha: Yeah.

Sarah: It’s like every February when all of the romance think pieces come out, I’m like, everybody get in the bunker. I’ve got wine. People who don’t know anything about romance are going to write about it. It’s going to be okay; we’re going to get through this. It happens every year; it’s no less annoying. It’s getting better! But it’s, it’s happen-, okay. And then, you know, come October it’s spooky season!

Agatha: Yeah, yeah.

Sarah: Let’s talk about the same five things! Like, what if we didn’t?

So tell me about another book!

Agatha: Well, Like Water for Chocolate, you know, the next one would be The Hacienda by Isabel Cañas, which I mentioned earlier. And that one’s out, and that’s a big new one right now, and I don’t know if you’ve read it. So Like Water for Chocolate is definitely a love story, very different vibes than The Hacienda. I don’t want people to think – ‘cause they will – that oh, all –

Sarah: But wait, no, no, they’re both books by Latina authors –

Agatha: They’re the same!

Sarah: – so of course they’re the exact same thing, whereas –

Agatha: Right!

Sarah: – Like Water for Chocolate is super hot erotic food and magical realism –

Agatha: Yes! The Hacienda is ghosts with a hot priest and witchcraft and –

Sarah: So many people just stopped listening to go find it.

[Laughter]

Sarah: When this comes out somebody’s going to be, I’m sorry, I’ve got to go. What?! [Laughs]

Agatha: Yeah! The hot priest has every reader fanning themselves. People that didn’t know they were looking for hot priests are looking for this book now. [Laughs]

Sarah: Oh yes.

Agatha: And, and it’s just a delicious, it’s – so she wrote it kind of in conversation with Rebecca; there’s Rebecca Easter eggs in there?

Sarah: Yep.

Agatha: So it’s very traditionally Gothic, but it is just the best time.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Agatha: You know, like, the thing that’s different than you – I mean, I love Rebecca and du Maurier and all of that, but her book has, you know, Isabel Cañas’s book has a character who’s definitely stronger. You know, it’s a little bit more modern with respect to, you know, obviously this character has a name, and then – [laughs] – let’s start there with a difference from Rebecca, right?

Sarah: Yeah.

Agatha: And she’s, she’s a stronger character, but you still have the isolation and the crumbling mansion, and you have an actual ghost, not the, is it a ghost or is it not a ghost? And again, you know, Rebecca didn’t have a hot priest. I mean, that right there – [laughs] – is –

Sarah: I mean, you’ve got to make up the difference, right?

Agatha: Right, and he’s a brujo, too, so, you know.

Sarah: Even better!

Agatha: Yeah. I kind of want to, like, lick my fingers when I’m done reading that book. [Laughs]

Sarah: Yep.

Agatha: It’s very sexy. Goodness. She, that book is so delicious; it is absolutely top five for me.

Sarah: Ever!

Agatha: Ever!

Sarah: Awesome!

Agatha: Ever, yes.

Sarah: Isn’t it cool when a new book comes out and you realize, wow, this is now at the pinnacle of my list? At, no matter what age you are? Like, wow, I can still be blown away by a book; this is amazing.

Agatha: I have purchased this for people to just give out so many times.

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Agatha: It’s, and it’s in hardcover! [Laughs]

Sarah: There are books that I’ve done that with.

Agatha: Yeah.

Sarah: Sometimes I read a book and I think, oh, okay, I know exactly who needs this book right now; I will send it to you, and I will send it to you; and then I have books that I send to people who are in bereavement? Like, okay –

Agatha: Hmm?

Sarah: – you’re exhausted. I’m going to send you some books. If you don’t like ‘em –

Agatha: Yeah.

Sarah: – don’t worry about it, but this is just –

Agatha: Yeah.

Sarah: – going to let your mind pause and breathe. I did this for my neighbor, and then she loaned it to her mom, and then – and there are very specific books, but when you hit the one that is like the best thing you’ve ever read and you think of like ten people who need it immediately –

Agatha: Yes!

Sarah: – it’s awesome feeling. It’s another form of the high of good book rec.

Agatha: Oh my gosh, yes! And then, like, I’m not going to give it out to randos; I’m going to give it out to people I know – [laughs] – will appreciate it –

Sarah: No, of course!

Agatha: – but, you know, it, when it, I see when it hits, and it’s so exciting –

Sarah: Yes!

Agatha: – you know? [Laughs]

Sarah: You start getting texts: oh my God, this book! Oh my God, this book!

Agatha: [Laughs] So the next one, if you’re ready for the next one –

Sarah: Yes, bring.

Agatha: Sarah, do you ever have that experience where, as much as you love a book, the audiobook is just divine?

Sarah: Yes.

Agatha: Okay.

Sarah: Yes. A thousand times, yes.

Agatha: Circe. Madeline Miller’s Circe is my third pick –

Sarah: Oh!

Agatha: – because that is like my summer soundtrack. I probably listened to that last summer at least three times –

Sarah: Wow!

Agatha: – and I’ve already listened to it again this summer on my drives, because I go visit my parents with my kid in the summer, so that, you know, gosh, we need something to do with the kids, right?

Sarah: Mm-hmm!

Agatha: And since I’m from a beach town, perfect! Let’s go visit grandma and grandpa! [Laughs] And so, and I –

Sarah: The things to do are built in!

Agatha: Yes! Yes! And so I take Circe with me, and it’s just – so Circe, to me, I mean, you know, she’s, it’s mythology and she’s a witch and everything, but the, and the book, I mean, if you’ve read it the words, you know, are wonderful, but the reader for the book is so good! And I do that with, like, Neil Gaiman and a couple of others where you know the, the book is wonderful; I love the book. Even people like David Sedaris, something about the way they read it just really hits, you know, and in a way that’s better –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Agatha: – I think, for me? And with Circe it’s like not only are the words just beautifully dripping off her mouth, but, like, I feel like she’s talking to me.

Sarah: Yeah.

Agatha: You know, like it’s a conversation. It’s just a divine experience, and every time I –

Sarah: And that’s Perdita Weeks, right?

Agatha: Mm-hmm –

Sarah: Yes.

Agatha: – and I’ve looked for other things that she’s read, and she hasn’t – or read – she hasn’t done that many audios.

Sarah: She’s done a bunch of Philippa Gregory, and I think she did The Golem and the Jinni?

Agatha: Okay, well, I guess I’m comparing it to Mary Jane Wells, which is probably unjust.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Agatha: You know, like, Mary Jane Wells has got pages upon pages on Audible –

Sarah: Yeah.

Agatha: – of books she’s read. I’m actually in the middle of listening right now to, to Lisa Kleypas’s Ravenels series, just because, I mean, I love Lisa Kleypas, but, you know, anything Mary Jane Wells reads, of course –

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Agatha: I’ve discovered authors by looking for, for books she reads.

Sarah: Absolutely! Absolutely. There are a lot of people who follow narrators, and I think that’s so cool, because, I mean, people – and you know this as a podcast – I think – as a podcaster – I think a lot of the times people take for granted how intimate voice is?

Agatha: Yes.

Sarah: When, when someone is putting our voices in their eardrums, that’s very intimate. It is very –

Agatha: Yeah.

Sarah: – very intimate, and narration is the same thing because you’re, you’re telling a story, and there’s so many ways to do that, but when you come across a good narrator who tells the story in a way that, that adds another element to it?

Agatha: Mm.

Sarah: Nalini Singh’s audiobooks are just as amazing.

Agatha: Ooh!

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Agatha: Okay, noted!

Sarah: Absolutely.

Agatha: I’m always on the hunt for an audio. I always have an audio going on or a podcast going on when I’m cleaning, washing dishes, cooking, whatever.

Sarah: Yep.

Agatha: You know, even just going to the grocery store, wandering around, ‘cause I don’t want to hear, you know, Chicago or something playing overhead –

Sarah: Yep.

Agatha: – in the grocery store. I’m walking around listening to a romance book or something.

Sarah: Yep.

Agatha: Yeah, Circe does that to me, and you know, again, being from, originally from a beach town, like, she’s on an island.

Sarah: Yeah.

Agatha: So, like, I have a sort of internalized knowledge of, like, maybe what that salty ocean wind –

Sarah: Yes.

Agatha: – feels like, and –

Sarah: Yes.

Agatha: – I can feel that sea breeze blowing through the hair and, like, that little trickle of sweat down the middle of your back in the middle of summer.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Agatha: Like, I, you know, I, I just felt that book so viscerally, and then the way she reads it is just divine. It’s a glorious experience. I cannot – every time I’ve recommended it to, people come back in my DMs and like – [gasps] – you were so right!

Sarah: Oh my gosh!

Agatha: [Laughs] But yeah, it’s my summer soundtrack.

Are you ready?

Sarah: I’m ready. Bring it.

Agatha: Number four: And Then There Were None by Agatha Christie –

Sarah: Oh-ho-ho-ho-hooo!

Agatha: Yes! Sarah, I mean, I – okay, first, it’s a perfect Gothic, it’s a perfect horror, it’s a perfect mystery: it’s all the things! And it does not hurt that the 2015 BBC production has Aidan Turner walking around in just a towel! [Laughs]

Sarah: Ohhh, no! Never say! Ah, man! What a sad, sad thing!

Agatha: And that is actually accurate to the book! Just – [laughs]

Sarah: Aidan Turner in a towel. Again, many people have turned off this episode now.

[Laughter]

Sarah: All of a sudden the listener numbers have dropped. I will watch in the – you know how when you get your stats –

Agatha: Yes.

Sarah: – and you see how many people listen?

Agatha: Yes.

Sarah: Yeah, there’s going to be two points where the listener stats just drop: I’m sorry, I’ve got to go read this, bye. [Laughs]

Agatha: It’s a three part, like a miniseries that the BBC did, and I read the book before I even realized that was out, because that hadn’t been out, I’d only read this book a couple of years ago.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Agatha: If you, if you believe it, it took me that long to get to this book. But it is now a perennial favorite for me for the rest of my life. It is just, it’s one of the Christie books that does, it’s one of the darkest. I don’t even know –

Sarah: Oh yeah!

Agatha: – as dark as this; all the other ones I’ve read are mystery novels that have either Poirot or Marple, and they’re kind of cheeky, slightly, like, even though they’re murder mysteries – like, she invented the cozy! I mean, they’re, they’re still kind of, there’s moments of humor, there’s moments of, where they’re just not as dark as this. This is dark and Gothic, and it’s a pure horror novel. It’s just absolute perfection! I’m just, I, and I think she knew it. She did say it’s the hardest book she wrote.

Sarah: Yeah. I have a book recommendation if you like Christie. Have you read Hither, Page by Cat Sebastian?

Agatha: Oh no! No, no, no!

Sarah: Okay. So Hither, Page is the first one, and The Missing Page is the second one, and they are pitched as cozy Agatha Christie, except –

Agatha: [Gasps]

Sarah: – really, really gay.

Agatha: Okay! And, I mean, everyone loves Cat Sebastian! So I’m going to just go with this!

Sarah: It’s so good. I read the two of them. I was immediately bummed that there weren’t more. Like –

Agatha: Oh!

Sarah: – they’re so good. They are all of the types of notes of a cozy mystery: there’s a small town, there’s a small community. Page and Sommers – I think it’s the Page & Sommers series –

Agatha: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – one of the men is a spy who was sent to find out what’s going on in this small town because someone has been killed that shouldn’t have been killed?

Agatha: Oh my!

Sarah: And the other is a resident of the town who is a former war surgeon who is now the country doctor, and they are all dealing with post-traumatic war bad memories, not sure of what your actual job or place in the world is, having experienced such horrible things –

Agatha: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – plus a murder mystery, and there’s just queerness everywhere. It’s so good.

Agatha: Perfect for my show!

Sarah: There you go!

Agatha: [Laughs]

Sarah: Absolutely!

Agatha: I might even – yeah, I might see if I can lure Cat to come talk about this.

Sarah: That should definitely happen.

Agatha: You know, ‘cause I, I am, I think you’re the same. I mean, I am a fan of the, of the midlist and the backlist?

Sarah: Oh yeah. My theory is any book that you haven’t read is a new book; it doesn’t matter if it was published two hundred years ago.

Agatha: Exactly.

Sarah: Exactly!

Agatha: I, I, the episode I have coming out this week, at least at the time of this recording, is about The Ghost Bride. I mean, that book –

Sarah: Heck yeah!

Agatha: – is almost ten years old! [Laughs]

Sarah: But it was adapted, and it keeps being rediscovered! It’s, you know –

Agatha: Yeah.

Sarah: – it’s still in print because it’s rediscovered.

Agatha: And that’s a marvelous book too. [Laughs] So.

Sarah: Yeah.

Agatha: And that’s another one where the Audible or, like, the audiobook is, is amazing, ‘cause Yangsze Choo, the author, actually reads it, and so she perfectly does the differences between all the characters; you’re completely engaged. She’s amazing.

Sarah: All right, what’s next?

Agatha: My fifth and final book for the books that rocked my world –

Sarah: Got to love a top five.

Agatha: – yeah, the fifth –

Sarah: Got to love a top five.

Agatha: [Sighs] Lady, it is We Have Always Lived in the Castle by Shirley Jackson. I mean, I cannot be a Gothic writer without a Shirley Jackson book.

Sarah: It’s true!

Agatha: And this is about 130 pages or so? I mean, it’s small. You can read it in a sitting. This has moments so perfect and subtle that you might miss them.

Sarah: Yep.

Agatha: You know, it’s just perfection, and I do not know if there is any story I’ve ever written that doesn’t have at least a little sliver of this novel in there. It is that big of a deal to me. It is just, it’s horror without a monster that is, like, in monster form?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Agatha: You know, she’s the queen of, of people being monsters.

Sarah: Oh, yes.

[Laughter]

Sarah: Yes, indeed!

Agatha: And, and then, you know, I mean, of course there’s going to be things I love, like the 1950s esthetic, and I think the movie adaptation that you can find on Netflix and Prime and stuff did a gorgeous job, again, accurately adapting this novel, and then also the look of it, you have all those beautiful wallpapers and the clothes and everything? I mean, you know, I’m a fan of a good adaptation, but this novel is just, I, I mean, it’s just perfection. It’s Gothic without, like, where humans are the monsters; it’s amazing. And it’s short! It’s short –

Sarah: It’s very short.

Agatha: – it’s short perfection. And Merricat is somebody that I think, you know, is kind of getting a little bit more attention; people are understanding a little bit, neurodiversity a little bit better now, and I think that she is a brilliant neurodiverse character, and as the mother of a neurodiverse child it’s just – a friend of mine kind of honed in on something just this week where I was talking about this book, and, and she goes, you’ve just given me new understanding into why her sister wouldn’t leave her, because I was talking about Merricat’s neurodiversity, and I was like, absolutely. You know, her sister understood, like, how critical she was to her sister –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Agatha: – in a place that would never understand her. And, you know, and we still struggle with that today, understanding neurodiversity, and –

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Agatha: – you know, putting neurotypical expectations on neurodiverse people at all times, to the point where they’re exhausted, you know. So it’s just, it’s just profound and beautiful and perfect and, you know, 130 pages of perfection.

Sarah: And seriously, it’s a book that, once you read it, it’s just going to sit in your brain and you’ll think of it at odd moments.

Agatha: For the rest of my life! [Laughs]

Sarah: Oh yeah, absolutely.

Agatha: And like I said, every time I write, there is a sliver of that novel that will work its way into my stories.

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Agatha: I just cannot – and I don’t even do it intentionally! I’ll just –

Sarah: No!

Agatha: – notice it as I go.

Sarah: So what books are you reading right now that you want to tell people about?

Agatha: Well, you’re going to love this cover. You’ve probably already seen it, ‘cause you are the, the wonder goddess of romance.

[Laughter]

Sarah: I don’t know about that, but okay!

Agatha: But this is going to come out, so everyone, if, if you fall in love with this concept, you’re going to need to preorder it, because this one will come out in October, but I am going to have her on the show –

Sarah: Yes!

Agatha: – and I’ve read her short stories. I’m going to show you the cover; can you see that?

Sarah: Ohhh yeeesss! That’s a good cover!

Agatha: It’s called On Good Authority, and it’s by Briana Una McGuckin, and it is a kink-positive Gothic romance in Victorian times.

Sarah: The cover reminds me a lot of The Widow of –

Agatha: Yes, The Widow of Rose House.

Sarah: Yes, Widow of Rose House.

Agatha: Can I read you the, the final line of the blurbs?

Sarah: Please do.

Agatha: “The line between servitude and bondage is drawn, and the dynamics of dominance and submission will shift in this sensually charged novel of Gothic suspense.”

Sarah: And that sound you heard was all of the listeners hitting pause.

Agatha: [Laughs] I felt like this was the perfect place, but it’s on my nightstand right now because I’m about to dive into it, since I’m going to interview her, and, I mean, I’ve read –

Sarah: Holy cow.

Agatha: – I’ve read her short fiction. Sarah, her short fiction is so – she has got such a mastery of the craft that I’m mad that she hasn’t been published as a novelist before.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Agatha: ‘Cause it’s just so good! Her Gothic stories are so, like, every single word is, like, there’s not a wasted word; every single word is perfect and evocative and beautiful, and she’s got such a mastery of the craft, and she’s a smarty librarian also – [laughs] – so, as her day gig, and so she appreciates, you know, a good story, and, and I’m just so excited for her that On Good Authority is going to be out in the world. So.

Sarah: And I think we’re due for another exploration of BDSM –

Agatha: Yes.

Sarah: – and what bondage and sexual roleplay mean and how it functions, ‘cause it’s always been there. You just sort of see it pop up in popular culture every now and again –

Agatha: Right.

Sarah: – sometimes great! Sometimes not so great.

Agatha: Well, and you know, Sarah, the thing is I straddle pretty evenly the worlds of romance and, and horror, mostly because Gothic does!

Sarah: Yes, exactly.

Agatha: And so, and, and I have my toe in both worlds, I follow authors in both worlds, and I’m just bummed that both of them are really interested in the merging of genre, but they’re not talking to each other, and so, like, horror fans are, are aware of On Good Authority, and they’re preordering it, but I don’t know if anybody in the romance world knows about it, and so that’s why I was so excited to talk about it on here, because, like, okay, so, you know the dumpster fire that is RWA. Well, horror –

Sarah: Little bit, yeah.

Agatha: – horror has one that’s not a dumpster fire, which is the, the HWA, and they just had a conference panel on horrormance, and, you know, the merging of horror and romance and erotica, and I, my most successful show now, all of the, all of my shows that have these topics are very highly rated –

[Laughter]

Agatha: – but the one that has, like, everyone edged out is on erotic horror, and we talk about erotic, I mean, like horrormance, where there is supposed to be an HEA in this horror world, but it’s also got a romance in there, and we talk about erotic horror, which is, like, more like erotica in the context of a horror story, which will lead to the next thing that I wanted to, to share with you guys about currently reading, because I pick up the short story collection on my nightstand, read, read a short story before bed, and then – [laughs] –

Sarah: Very cool.

Agatha: – and then dream, dream about some, some crazy shit. So – [laughs] – I hear sometimes, you know, from romance readers, well, but it has the word horror and I don’t want to try it, and they, I don’t want them to think – I think ‘80s slasher films really influenced people’s perception of horror, and they all think it’s just Stephen King. They had no idea that, like, women writers are the predominant force in thrillers and, and with horror. They’re, you know, they’re just, they’re such a loud voice, and I don’t think they understand, you know, the romance readers that I’ve come across, there is such, such a huge merging of, of romance and horror coming together.

Well, the last thing I want to talk to you about is exactly what I was saying is that the guest I had on that episode was V. Castro, and V. Castro, I’m going to show you Goddess of Filth; this is her, it’s a novella. So Goddess of Filth is definitely an erotic horror story. It takes place in south Tex-, San Antonio, she’s from San Antonio, but I’ve also got here Mestiza Blood, and because I’m from Texas I’m going to say it my way, which is Queen of Chicharras, but, you know, my husband –

Sarah: I’ve never heard it pronounced that way!

Agatha: My husband’s from Virginia, so he’ll say cicadas, but, you know, in Spanish we say chicharras. So –

Sarah: Holy cow. Learn something every day.

Agatha: [Laughs] But, you know, her stuff is extremely sexy. There, it’s not about HEAs; she’s not interested in putting a couple together. It’s about, it’s more erotica, where it’s a personal erotic journey.

Sarah: So as you said, horror and romance need to hang out, so we did.

Agatha: Yes!

Sarah: Where can people find you if they want to find more?

Agatha: Well, people can find me @SheWoreBlackPod on Twitter, or you can –

Sarah: Awesome.

Agatha: – yeah, or @sheworeblackpodcast on Instagram, or I keep my website pretty updated at sheworeblackpodcast.com, and you can find links to, like, books on our show notes and stuff there, and I’m hoping before we go, Sarah, that you can give me some advice or maybe your readers can help me out? A wife of one of, a brilliant horror writer, you know – his name is LP Hernandez – his wonderful, wonderful wife has asked for help looking for – and I know you’ve got this device on your website – erotic unicorn horror. If y’all can come up with something that niche – [laughs] – help me find it, I’d love to pass that off.

Sarah: All right, I want to say that Diana Peterfreund wrote unicorn horror. I don’t believe it’s erotic, ‘cause it might have been YA, but Diana Peterfreund wrote a series where the unicorns were evil. Killer Unicorns is the name of the series –

Agatha: [Gasps] Okay.

Sarah: – the first one is called Rampant.

Agatha: Yes.

Sarah: They can only be killed by the virgin descendants of Alexander the Great.

Agatha: Oh, of course!

Sarah: I will find some more, and I’m certain that we can find some more in the comments for you.

[music]

Sarah: And that brings us to the end of this week’s episode. Thank you so much to Agatha for hanging out with me and for doing a crossover episode, and you can find me on her podcast, and I will link to her show and that episode in the show notes, and thank you for listening. It is an honor to keep you company for a little while each week, and I love knowing how much you enjoy the show.

If you have recommendations for erotic unicorn horror, please email me at [email protected] or, you know, yell at me on Twitter. You can also find Agatha on Twitter. Either way, if this is a book where you’re like, I know that one! It’s like knowing the answer to a trivia question, right? Please get in touch because I know there’s more out there. There are so many books, and I think between all of us we’ll know about all of them at some point in the future maybe one day.

I always have a bad joke. This week’s bad joke comes from Alison. Alison sent me three bad jokes. You know, if you want to send me bad jokes you can do that?

Where does chocolate milk come from?

Where does chocolate milk come from?

A dairy ca-cow.

[Laughs] Dairy cacao! It’s so silly! Thank you, Alison! The minute I get an email where it’s like, I have some jokes for you, I’m like – [gasps] – this is the greatest moment of my day! So please, if you’ve got bad jokes, you should send them to me, because, I mean, it’s like a highlight of my week, I swear.

On behalf of everyone here, we wish you the very best of reading! Have a great weekend, and we will see you back here next week!

Smart Podcast, Trashy Books is part of the Frolic Podcast Network. You can find outstanding podcasts to subscribe to at frolic.media/podcasts.

Dairy cacao! [Laughs]

[Cool music]