423. Vampires and Spicy Blood with Zoraida Córdova and Dhonielle Clayton

[music]

Sarah Wendell: Hello. Welcome to my house virtual learning chaos. How’s your house? And welcome to the podcast. I’m Sarah Wendell from Smart Bitches, Trashy Books, and today I am talking with Zoraida Córdova and Dhonielle Clayton. Zoraida co-edited a new anthology called Vampires Never Get Old, and both Dhonielle and Zoraida have stories inside it, so we are going to talk about vampires. And we’re going to talk about ambition, needing sleep, podcasting, accountability, and the prospective titles of our autobiographies. This is a wide-ranging and really interesting conversation, and I love talking to podcasters.

I also don’t know if you can tell, but it’s break time in between classes in my house, so it’s a little chaotic over here. You know that Beatles song “All Together Now”? We are all together now, forever, always. Much like vampires. Except I don’t think vampires would do virtual learning.

Either way, I will have links as to where you can find Zoraida Córdova and Dhonielle Clayton on the show notes, or on the website in the show notes at smartbitchestrashybooks.com/podcast.

This episode is brought to you in part by Dipsea. We have talked a lot lately about how reading can be difficult when your brain is stressed – might I suggest an anthology of short stories? – and that is definitely true for me. It can be really hard to remember to take time to focus on yourself, but your joy and pleasure are so important, especially right now. But you can put your wellbeing first with Dipsea. Dipsea is an audio app full of short, sexy stories and wellness sessions that are designed to turn you on and help you get in touch with yourself. The stories are relatable and immersive so you feel like you’re right there, and there’s something for everyone, whomever and whatever you’re into. The wellness sessions can help you unlock new confidence or heighten intimacy with your partner. They add new stories every week, so you never get bored. It’s an intimate way to use narratives to take care of yourself. And we know what that’s like, right? Obviously. For listeners of the show, Dipsea is offering a thirty-day free trial when you go to dipseastories.com/TRASHYBOOKS. That’s a thirty-day free trial when you go to Dipsea Stories, D-I-P-S-E-A stories dot com slash TRASHYBOOKS: dipseastories.com/TRASHYBOOKS.

A special hello and thank-you to our podcast Patreon community. If you have supported the show with a pledge of any amount, thank you very, very much, and we have received so many new Patreon supporters in the past few weeks! So thank you and hello to Patti, Margaret, Ysabel, Leigh, Varian, Saryta, and Melissa. Thank you so very much for your support.

If you would like to have a look at the podcast Patreon it is patreon.com/SmartBitches.

This episode is also brought to you by Native Deodorant. I believe reading labels is key. I also believe in having clean options, and I support companies who innovate products like Native. Native Deodorant is formulated without aluminum, parabens, or talc. It won’t clog your sweat glands. It’s vegan, it’s never tested on animals, and it works! And it smells really good too.  They have launched plastic-free, one-hundred-percent-paperboard packaging, which I think is so cool. The new packaging will be available for five of their most popular scents, including my very favorite, coconut and vanilla, and they’re committed to going plastic-free by ’23! Sustainable packaging options for all products by the end of 2023; that’s pretty cool! You can try Native risk-free, and many members of the Smart Bitches team are big fans of Native. Free shipping on every order, and Native offers thirty-day free returns and exchanges in the US. Do what I did and make the switch to Native today by going to nativedeo.com/TRASHYBOOKS or use promo code TRASHYBOOKS and get twenty percent off your first order! That’s Native D-E-O dot com slash TRASHYBOOKS or use promo code TRASHYBOOKS at checkout for twenty percent off your first order.

This episode was also brought to you by Ritual, a daily multivitamin obsessively researched for women! It is vegan-friendly, sugar-free, non-GMO, gluten-free, allergen-free, and all of the sources for the nine nutrients inside are provided for you to read and research on your own. We deserve to know what we’re putting in our bodies and why, which is why Ritual’s founder is on a mission to reinvent the vitamin industry. They call it traceability. They’re committed to showing you the nutrients, where they came from, and why they chose them. I like that it’s easy, I like that a new bottle is delivered right when I get an old one finished, and I like knowing exactly what’s inside each capsule. I also like that the capsules are transparent; it’s pretty cool. Daily changes lead to big results, so start small today. Ritual is offering you ten percent off your first three months. Try it out, satisfaction guaranteed. Go to ritual.com/SARAH to start your Ritual today. That’s ten percent off your first three months at ritual.com/SARAH.

Shall we get started with this podcast? Let’s do it. And you know, stay tuned after for a really bad joke.

[music]

Zoraida Córdova: My name is Zoraida Córdova, and I’m the author of many books! The most recent are Incendiary, the Brooklyn Brujas series, and Vampires Never Get Old, which is an anthology that I co-edited with Natalie C. Parker. I’m, I write fantasy predominantly; I also write romance under the name Zoey Castile – Zoey with a Y and Castile with one L. I also have a podcast called Deadline City with my fabulist friend and co-host Dhonielle Clayton.

Dhonielle Clayton: That was the nice version of things that she says about me.

[Laughter]

Zoraida: Yeah, this is very nice.

Dhonielle: Yes, this is very nice. My name is Dhonielle Clayton, and I am the COO of the nonprofit We Need Diverse Books, and I also run a company called Cake Literary, which is a literary packaging company that believes that making a book feels like making a cake, and if it came in, if cake came in one flavor our, our whole lives, it would be very boring, so it, it focuses on diversity. I also write lots of books that torture me.

[Laughter]

Dhonielle: I’m a co-author of the Tiny Pretty Things series, which is debuting on Netflix as an original series, and –

Sarah: Yay!

Dhonielle: – very soon, and I’m, also wrote the Belles series, and I have a lot of other books coming out and things that are about to announce that have just made me really exhausted, but I love it, and so yes, and I run that podcast with Zoraida Córdova called Deadline City, and I adore her, even though she trolls me. It’s great.

[Laughter]

Dhonielle: And we’re so happy to be here!

Sarah: Oh, thank you! What are all of the things that you are working on right now that you can talk about? Because I know you’ve had projects that have moved dates and things that are all happening at once. What all are you doing right now?

Zoraida: Dhonielle?

Dhonielle: Why do I have to go first? I –

Zoraida: I, ‘cause I introduced myself first, so now it’s your turn! I’m trying to alternate!

Dhonielle: See, this is –

Zoraida: It’s fair!

Dhonielle: – this is –

Zoraida: [Laughs]

Dhonielle: – this is what our dynamic is like. Okay, we argue. She’s like the baby sister arguing with me, and we fuss.

Okay, so right now I’m trying to finish up edits on a book – we’ve announced it – that my co-author Sona Charaipotra and I are working on. It’s called the Rumor Game, and I’m in sort of like the line edit/copyedit hell, and that book is coming probably next year or the year after that. And what is time during a pandemic?

I’m also finishing up this Disney project that announced called, it’s the Mirror series. It’s four of us; we’re all writing in a shared universe about this sort of family curse that’s following these two, this family. And so I have the second book in the series, and I’m trying to finish that up.

And I’ve got all these, like, little secret projects.

[Laughter]

Dhonielle: I have another big series that’s going to announce maybe this week, maybe next week, which I’m excited about, and I’m just, and I’m trying to finish up a short story and clean it up, and everything’s taking forever, and I can’t figure out why I can’t get my brain noodles to fire faster – [laughs] – and to work faster. So. I think those are all the things I’m working on, but again, I forget everything now.

Zoraida: [Laughs] I have a, for me it’s, it’s mostly the books that I have coming out this year. I sort of ended up, I, I don’t know how I ended up with three novels and three anthologies, four anthologies accidentally, because earlier this year Star Wars, Lucasfilm asked, like, decided to put together the fortieth anniversary of The Empire Strikes Back anthology, which is an anthology that donates, all the authors donate their fees to the First Book organization to get books, like a hundred thousand dollars’ worth of, of books into the hands of kids, and, and so I ended up with a fourth anthology on my plate, and Nov-, that’s going to be in November.

Sarah: Oof!

Zoraida: So my, my book Incendiary came out April 28th, so, like, right smack in the middle of everything, and that is a, a high fantasy about revenge and romance. The book is, book two is, is more romantic than book one, but it’s definitely about, like, what would, what are you willing to do to avenge the, the person that you love, right, and get justice? And it’s, it’s inspired by fourteen, 15th-century Spain, so it has the element of the Spanish Inquisition that inspired this, the, the, the secondary world that, in Incendiary. So that came out.

I have my first middle-grade, The Way to Rio Luna, which came out in June.

September 1st is the launch of, the launch of the third and final book in the Brooklyn Brujas series, which I’m very excited about –

Sarah: [Squees]

Zoraida: – and I’m, I’m, I’m sad and excited that my trilogy is complete.

And my, the anthol-, I’m working on promoting the anthology for Vampires Never Get Old, which is eleven stories from twelve different authors. I co-authored a story with my co-editor Natalie. Dhonielle’s in the anthology. We have Victoria Schwab and Julie Murphy and so many fantastic authors writing, writing for us, and that comes out September 22nd.

But as for fresh writing – [laughs] – I have –

Dhonielle: What is fresh writing?

Zoraida: Fresh writing like, fresh writing like stuff that isn’t finished!

[Laughter]

Zoraida: I’m working on the sequel to Incendiary, which, you know, took a pound of flesh, but it’s done, and I love it a lot.

Sarah: Yay!

Zoraida: There’s, it’s literally just about getting two characters together, so if you like romance and you like violence, you can, you can, you can read this book. [Laughs] And fantasy, right, obviously.

And I’m also working on an adult novel, which is a book of my heart. It has not announced, so I can’t tell you much about it other than it’s magical realism and it’s the, a book that I’ve always wanted to write.

Sarah: Seriously, I could do like a five-hour episode asking you about all the cool stuff you guys are doing. Holy smokes!

[Laughter]

Zoraida: We don’t like to sleep!

Sarah: This isn’t –

Zoraida: I mean, we love to sleep.

Dhonielle: We don’t like what we do.

Sarah: No! That literally is one of my questions: seriously, do you sleep?

Zoraida: [Laughs]

Sarah: You’re actually vampires and witches, and that’s how this works, and now I’m in mortal danger, basically. Seriously!

Dhonielle: I, I need a lot of sleep, actually.

Sarah: Me too!

Dhonielle: I’m a person that is very sensitive to sleep being out of whack, and I need about eight hours –

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Dhonielle: – eight hours of sleep minimum. So, I –

Sarah: I’m right there with you.

Dhonielle: Yeah, I have to get my sleep, regardless, so even if I stay up till two or three o’clock in the morning, I have to adjust and not get up until eleven, and it just is –

Sarah: Yep!

Dhonielle: – what it is, because my brain cannot think through creative things without the sleep –

Zoraida: Mm-hmm.

Dhonielle: – part. So yeah, sleep is really important to me, but I do, I am a workhorse, and I think that’s the reason why Zoraida and I are very close is because I haven’t met another person, aside from Victoria Schwab – [laughs] – who works at the level that we work, where it’s really important to us to be ambitious and to get things done, but we also crash and burn, and we have to sleep.

Zoraida: I crash and burn hard. I am useless for weeks at a time after a deadline. Like, la-, two days ago, I stayed up until, until 5:30 in the morning to turn in some line edits, and then, and then the next day I, I had to do some recording for our podcast, and I, I was, I was dead to the world during, during that, like, those two hours were the only time I was really alive, and then I just lay down, and I would, I would text my brother from my room to the living room being like, hey, can you get me this?

[Laughter]

Zoraida: And he’s like, I’m literally in the next room, and, and I’m like, I know, but texting is so much easier.

Sarah: Line edits, bro, come on! [Laughs]

Zoraida: Yeah, exactly.

[Laughter]

Sarah: I am, I am the same way, and I find that as I get older, my body has a hard wakeup time? So –

Zoraida: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – even if I need the eight, eight and a half hours of sleep, at around 8:30 my brain’s like, listen, we’re done now. There’s no more sleep to be done; I don’t care how many hours you’ve had, you need to get up. So I have to be so protective of my bedtime now that I’m, you know, old, older and older? I was doing an interview recently, fortunately by email, and I didn’t have to think on my feet, and the, one of the questions was, what’s the title of your autobiography when you write it? [Laughs] And I realized my title would be It Is Past My Bedtime.

Zoraida: Oh my God, that’s fun. [Laughs]

Dhonielle: Yes. Yes.

[Crosstalk]

Dhonielle: Mine would be, I need, You Need a Nap.

Sarah: Yes!

[Laughter]

Dhonielle: Like, literally; like, you’re grumpy, you need a nap! You need a nap, so –

Sarah: Yep.

Dhonielle: – that’s, that’s mine. Zoraida’s –

[Crosstalk]

Dhonielle: I Can’t Nap.

Zoraida: I can’t. I try really hard. I lie down, and I, I close, I’ll close my eyes, and I feel myself drifting, and then, like, I jerk awake because I, I, I can’t nap until it’s bedtime. I need that. I just need to – last night I had, I had bizarre dreams –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Zoraida: – ‘cause I took, I took some melatonin to, like, to really fall deeply asleep, and I, I got nine and a half hours just – I did not set an alarm; I just let my body come awake naturally, and I was having dreams that I was hanging out with the singer Maluma, and –

Dhonielle: [Laughs]

Zoraida: – and it was –

Sarah: As you do.

Zoraida: Yeah! It was great, because we were, like, in a mall in Ecuador, and we were all just, like, super chill. It was not like, it was not romantic; it was more of, like, we’re friends, and I thought that that was great. [Laughs]

Sarah: I would spend nine hours with that dream. That sounds fantastic!

Zoraida: Mm-hmm!

Sarah: Yeah, I have a, I have an, an app on my watch that will sync to another app and tell me my sleep, so every morning I get up and I’m like, how did I do? What was my sleep achievement?

[Laughter]

Sarah: Which, which probably is not healthy, but I love good sleep. I’m so much happier and, like you said, able to be creative and think creatively.

Dhonielle: Yeah!

Sarah: So I would really like to know all about this vampire anthology, please? I want to know about your story; I want to know about the podcast you’re doing about, with it. This is so cool! Could you please tell me about this anthology? This is amazing!

Zoraida: Yeah! So the Vampires Never Get Old anthology was a brainchild of a moment where Natalie Parker and I were in, we were at a romance writing retreat. She runs a company with her wife called Madcap Retreats, and so this was –

Sarah: Mm-hmm?

Zoraida: – their first romance author retreat, and I went, I went as a helper and to sort of lead discussion groups and all these things. So there was a, there was a day where, it’s in the Alabama Gulf Shore, and we were in this pool, and I, I said something to, we were talking about being nostalgic about the books that we used to read, and I said something –

Sarah: Yeah.

Zoraida: – to the effect of, do you know what I miss? Vampires.

[Laughter]

Dhonielle: Vampires, bro.

[More laughter]

Dhonielle: I can hear this! I was not there, but I can hear it.

Zoraida: And, you know, it was definitely, you know, I was in my cups, and Julie Murphy said something like, I want to write a vampire story. And I said, yes, and this anthology has to be a lot of – we’re obviously going to have people you expect to write vampire short stories, right, like Victoria Schwab and Dhonielle, but what about the unexpected people who you wouldn’t think would write a vampire short story, like Julie Murphy, the author of Dumplin’, right? Like Samira Ahmed, the author of Internment. And so how, so that’s how we put that together, and everyone that we asked was interested, and it was, it just fell together really easily. Nat-, you know, Natalie’s agent took it out and publishers wanted it, and so we were just excited because you never know with the publishing industry, people think, they get, I think publishers get tired of trying to come up with new ways of marketing trends? And so even if somebody – people want vampire books. They’re just tired of the same old vampire book, so until they get something new, they’re not going to buy it, and I think that what we’re offering are several stories with different perspectives. Mark Oshiro has a Latinx vampire that was born a vampire, and, and so what, how is that different than, than getting turned? Rebecca Roanhorse, whose an adult author, she has an, she has a short story about a boy, a Native, a Native boy who accidentally calls a band of cowboy vampires to town, and, and the effects that this has on his life. So it’s sort of, it’s all different points of view that have, have not been told before and are offering something distinct. So –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Zoraida: – I’m just really excited for it to come out, and I’ll let Dhonielle talk about her short story a little bit without giving away spoilers!

Dhonielle: I see that I’ve been boxed in for how much I can talk.

Zoraida: [Laughs]

Dhonielle: See how she does me; this is like a little –

Zoraida: Well, we still want people to read it!

Dhonielle: Yes, of course. I –

Sarah: So chapter one, page one, you’re going to start reading.

Dhonielle: Exactly!

[Laughter]

Dhonielle: I was so excited to be part of this collection. First of all, I didn’t get a choice –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Zoraida: No, she didn’t! I said, hey, you’re going to be in this anthology.

Dhonielle: Right. You’re writing a vampire story. I was like, oh, okay. And that’s fine. This is the way our relationship works. I was so thrilled to be able to try to write something that I wanted to see on the shelves in terms of the way that vampire culture or vampirism and all of this great lore is translated into the Black community. I have yet to see it reflect the things that I want to see, and so I gave myself that challenge, and I wanted to write about how would becoming a vampire and being in a vampire family and also being Black American, how would that influence how you work with other supernatural communities? Because I don’t believe that supernatural beings would be immune to racism and sexism and all of the –isms, right? That they would, they would be segregated away from white vampires, and I thought, well, how would that, how would they develop then? What would their powers look like? What would their community look like? And so on. And that challenge was a lot of fun to imagine, imagine that world and also, in doing that, I realized that this is a bigger world and, and my story, “The House of Black Sapphires,” is set in a world that is going to be the setting of an adult book, which is a secret project that I’m working on right now. So it was –

Sarah: Ohhh.

Dhonielle: – fantastic to be able to, to do that, and vampires are always going to be my chosen supernatural creature that I would want to be turned into, so.

Zoraida: ‘Cause vampires never get old.

Dhonielle: Yes –

Zoraida: [Laughs]

Dhonielle: – and they have the potential – I like my vampires sexy and glam and decadent! And so that’s what I’m, that’s what I’m serving for you. And we’re all in New Orleans, which is the best place to be.

Sarah: Well, I mean, that’s where they all kind of hang out, right?

Dhonielle: Yeah, exactly. And it’s –

Sarah: I’ve always, I’ve always thought that vampires represented us struggling with death and mortality, and werewolves were us struggling with rage.

Dhonielle: Mm! That’s –

Sarah: In, in the romance world; that was, at least, my reading of it, that, that werewolves were anger and rage, especially when the werewolf was female, ‘cause, you know, women have various limitations on our ability to get really publicly angry. What if you just can’t control your anger? And what if you just can’t control not dying? You just don’t die! That’s just how it is, and you amass all this wealth, so what are your problems?

Zoraida and Dhonielle: Yeah.

Sarah: I love the idea of setting that within communities that don’t often get to be featured, ‘cause, you know, vampires in popular literature are pretty white!

Dhonielle: Yes. And when a Black vampire or a non-white vampire shows up in vampire fiction or TV and film, it’s just really, I think, a white vampire that’s been painted brown or other. There’s no actual deep interrogation of what culture, community, ethnicity mean at the bone level and how it would influence how the traits of vampirism manifest. So yes, they drink blood, but I believed that my vampires would also add spices to their blood, because Black Americans like spicy food.

[Laughter]

Dhonielle: So they spice, they spice the blood, and they also add, make all kinds of blood dishes and eat different kinds of food that are as laden with blood. So I took it in a different direction to make it actually really reflect the culture and the community that I come from.

Zoraida: See, I would not –

Dhonielle: Because –

Zoraida: – I would not add sofrito to, to my blood.

Dhonielle: Sorry! 

Zoraida: No.

Dhonielle: I just – look, I think that the blood would taste better with a little bit of adobo, okay?

Zoraida: I definitely do not! [Laughs]

Dhonielle: Well, in my vampire culture, my, my beautiful ladies and my community – and they’re not called vampires; they’re called Eternals – they spice their blood! They spice the blood that they, that they drink and they, and also to enhance its properties. They use the blood, they make – you know what I mean? There are, I think there are blood-dusted beignets? There are, you put it – there’s a lot of different ways. I took the idea of blood, and I translated it into different ways to show it in food, right? ‘Cause drinking only blood forever is really boring!

Zoraida: [Laughs] Well. So.

Dhonielle: Look, I just did what I wanted to do!

Zoraida: Absolutely! I, listen, I, I love your story.

Dhonielle: You told me yes!

Zoraida: I think that your story is brilliant. The world you’ve created is brand new, with the familiar trapping of New Orleans; that New Orleans vibe is still there, even though it’s your own magical version, and so I’m excited for our readers to be able to dive into this world.

Sarah: And it’s like, who, who’s going to say you’re wrong about vampires?

Zoraida: Exactly!

Sarah: What, are they going to show up and be like, listen – ?

Dhonielle: [Laughs] Historically –

Sarah: You, this is all incorrect.

Dhonielle: – the vampire community –

Sarah: Well, actually, it’s not going to happen! [Laughs]

Zoraida: Absolutely! That’s the, that’s the fantastic thing about magical, magical beings. We get to reinvent them –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Zoraida: – to, to fit our world, and the nature of speculative fiction is asking what if? So what if Dhonielle’s vampires came from this origin as opposed to just Dracula, you know what I mean? So –

Sarah: Right.

Zoraida: – that is, that is, you’re, you’re doing the work of a, of a, of an SF/F author.

Sarah: And it’s not as if stories of longevity and immortality and blood don’t exist in different cultures. It’s not as if there’s only one version of the story that’s the right version.

Dhonielle: Exactly, and I thought, where can I take this. I’ve been complaining about –

Sarah: Yeah!

Dhonielle: – how I feel like a lot of these mythological and, like, supernatural creatures are, it’s like painting the roses red, where we’re not actually interrogating the root of what it means to be both something else, be both Black and a vampire. I wanted to translate it in a way that would be, like, that everyone would want to be my ladies who live in a beauty apothecary but also drinking spiced blood, right? I wanted to –

Sarah: Yeah!

Dhonielle: – make it a, it’s a decadent New Orleans, and I won’t tell you what my, this version of New Orleans looks like, ‘cause it’ll be a surprise, but I wanted to, you know, make something really, really beautiful and like a dark dreamscape. So! And Zoraida said I could do whatever I want, so did Natalie C. Parker, so I –

Zoraida: Yep!

Dhonielle: – just went with it. I went for it. I went for it! And I’m, it’s one of my favorite things that I’ve ever written. So.

Sarah: Oh, that’s so lovely!

Dhonielle: Yeah. It truly is.

Sarah: Isn’t it just the most wonderful feeling to be excited by something that you’ve created? And be like, I am so proud and excited about this?

Dhonielle: Because most of the time in this writing hell that is, like, life as a writer is, I hate it. I say that every day. I’m like, oh, I hate this. I hate it, I hate it. This is awful. Oh, this sucks. And, like, that’s all I can think about – [laughs] – as I’m writing, and with this –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Dhonielle: – with this story, I don’t know! I don’t feel like I’m alone here. I just felt like –

Sarah: No, you’re not alone! [Laughs]

Dhonielle: I was like, I love this! I love my world! Oh my God! How did I do this? I love this! It’s going to get hard, I know, because I’m translating this world into an adult world, and there are going to be parts that I hate, but I really love my world, and I think that, I haven’t felt like that in a while.

Sarah: So, now, Zoraida, I know you have a podcast to go with the release of this anthology.

Zoraida: Yes!

Sarah: How, how did that come to be, and how much of a multimedia empire are y’all building there?

Zoraida: [Laughs] Well, we’re going to conquer the world like Pinky and the Brain.

Sarah: Love this plan; so excited.

Zoraida: Clearly you know who is Pinky and who’s the Brain over here.

[Laughter]

Zoraida: I am Pinky. [Laughs] So the podcast came about because we, you know, we were talking about what it’s going to look like having to promote this anthology when we can’t go into bookstores and when we can’t have, you know – we, we can obviously do online, online videos and online, online book events, but –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Zoraida: – I thought, why don’t we just deepen the discussion because there’s so much to talk about when it comes to the vampire mythos, specifically in the way that it is handled in the ‘90s and early 2000s, so those, those two decades, 1990 to 2010. We have a couple of books that we’ll be discussing that are outside of that, but for the most part it is In the Forests of the Night, Twilight, The Silver Kiss –

Sarah: Ooh.

Zoraida: – Interview with the Vampire, which is a little bit older, but these books have shaped the way that we look at vampire mythology, and I think that that is why we have a consistently, the same sort of archetype when it comes to the vampire and what happens when authors do it a little bit differently, right. Like, Holly Black’s The Coldest Girl in Coldtown definitely takes the archetype and interrogates in on the page, and so we, we were like, let’s just be nerds and talk about these things and invite the authors to do that as well and just have it be a limited run so that, you know, it’s not like we’re going to be – and, and maybe it, I don’t know, like, if it’s super successful, maybe we’ll do another, another couple of episodes, but for the most part, I really saw it as this contained thing that will feature our authors that are in the anthology and just let us have those conversations that are super fun. It would be like, like a salon, like a literary salon, except for your ears, and you don’t have to go anywhere.

Sarah: Oh my gosh, I think that could be another anthology, the vampire literary salon, where all the vampires sit around and argue about how they’re lit-, represented in literature.

Zoraida: Right?

[Laughter]

Zoraida: That’s a, that would be a great short story as well. It feels like an episode of What We Do in the Shadows.

Sarah: Yes! [Laughs]

Dhonielle: I feel like they’d be so mad. They’d be sooo mad.

Zoraida: Oh yeah.

Sarah: They would be bitter.

Zoraida: Yeah.

[Laughter]

Sarah: And you know somewhere, if vampires are real, they’re listening and they’re going yes, yes, you are right. Drinking blood all the time is really boring. Let me tell you about adding Vegemite to it.

Dhonielle: Exactly!

[Laughter]

Dhonielle: Guys are haters! You can make Blood Mules! You can make blood cocktails! Look –

Zoraida: I would drink blood cocktails the whole time.

Dhonielle: Exactly! I’m just saying, we can liven things up, and that’s what I tried to do.

Sarah: Maybe all the Bloody Marys are actually, like, code!

Dhonielle: Mm-hmm, maybe.

Sarah: Got all that pepper in them. Ooh! [Laughs]

So what led to your starting Deadline City? Please tell me all the things about your podcast. I imagine this is also a project that you really love ‘cause you get to hang out and then share it with people.

Zoraida: Yes. Dhonielle, Dhonielle pulled me into this.

Dhonielle: I did? I don’t even remember the story.

Sarah: It’s all your fault? It’s all your fault.

Dhonielle: Wait! What’s, what’s, what’s the story? I forgot! I’m having brain farts.

Zoraida: [Laughs]

Sarah: Wait, we have a podcast? We do? Really?

Zoraida: Well, I think it, it, it sort of came about –

Dhonielle: Oh, the office.

Zoraida: The off-, you know, the office. So share we an office called – and we, I named the office Deadline City because –

Dhonielle: Yeah.

Zoraida: – the pro-, we share it with Mark Oshiro as well, and the three of us were on deadline at the same time, but Dhonielle and I are al-, like, we have been perpetually on deadline since 2016, and –

Dhonielle: Mm-hmm.

Zoraida: – and so we, you know, trying to get all these books to come out, there was like a year where I didn’t have a book out because all of the books that I was writing sort of kept getting pushed and moved around, and now it’s 2020 and all of them are out at the same time in sort of like a Hunger Games situation; just, like, do whatever you can, okay?

[Laughter]

Zoraida: And so when we were in the office we were talking about how we get a lot of these questions from new authors, how do I do this? How do I keep writing when I’m on deadline? What do I do if I’m on like my third agent and I can’t, you know, like, I’m not inspired? Or what do I do if – you know, so it’s all of these hypothetical questions to us that could be answered but are not answered because most of the resources that are available for authors are for pre-published and debut authors. And so what happens –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Zoraida: – after you get the book deal? After you’ve been in it for five years and you’re sort of like, I still don’t understand how publishing works because it, it maintains this level of, of mystery, and, and I don’t, I truly don’t believe it’s because people are hiding resource; I think it’s because people just expect everyone to know the answers, which is a very different situation? And, and so we were like, let’s just demystify this process, because why not? And talk about our own deadlines and, and, and what we’ve got going on, and so we, and eventually we started having on guests who are our friends and expanding in that sense, but we just, we talk about the things that bother us or that we’re dealing with in our own books, and so we just hope that we’re being helpful to everyone else.

But Dhonielle wanted to do, she, she, she said she wanted to start a podcast and, and, and you said something like, do you want to do it with me? Or I was like, I could do it with you, and I, I honestly can’t remember the exact day, but I just remember you saying like you wanted to do this thing, and I said, I want to do, like, I’ll do it too, and what, and then we were trying to come up with a name, and I just said Deadline City, that’s literally our office, and that’s it. I think that’s it. ‘Cause I can’t remember the rest.

Dhonielle: Yeah! [Laughs] Yeah, I – you see, this is what happens. It’s like pandemic fish brain memory. I, I remember being like, I want to start a podcast. I want to get into podcasting, only because I wasn’t finding writing podcasts that really were helpful for what I was in, which is chronic deadlines, chronic terror, like, beating my own beasts of ambition and, you know, Zoraida and I were in that office till two or three o’clock in the morning weekly just working, and we had started doing something for each other where if she had a deadline and she had a deliverable that she had to get in, I would sit up and stay up with her so that she had someone there to make it through to the end, and she would do the same for me. There’s something about being held accountable where it’s like, shit –

Sarah: Yes!

Dhonielle: – if I don’t get this done, my friend’s not going to sleep either, and that means that my friend is not going to get what she needs, so I need to get my shit together, right?

Zoraida: It was a day where we were in the office until like four in the morning, and –

Dhonielle: Yeah.

Sarah: Whoa!

Zoraida: – I definitely, I lay down, and I couldn’t get up; like, I pulled my back.

Dhonielle: Yeah.

Zoraida: And –

Dhonielle: Yep.

Zoraida: – that was really bad. [Laughs]

Dhonielle: Yeah, I remember that day, and we had, like, a little mattress in the office so that you could lie down and take a nap.

Zoraida: It’s one of those camping, like, sleeping pads that you blow up –

Sarah: Mm-hmm!

Zoraida: – when you go camping for, like, a single person?

Sarah: Yeah.

Zoraida: That’s what that is.

Dhonielle: Right. And so, yeah, I just really wanted to demystify some of the publishing things that I’ve gone through and also talk about the work and talk about the ups and downs, because I think people only see one version of what it means to be a writer, and they –

Sarah: Yes.

Dhonielle: – don’t understand all of the other stuff. So I just wanted to do that, and Zoraida’s the perfect person to do that with because we have a great energy together. We fuss, we – and I love her work, and I think that that’s what makes it easy to do a podcast with her is because I’m a super fan of her books and her storytelling and, like, think that she’s, like, the bee’s knees, so it’s easy for us to, like, argue about books and –

Zoraida: [Laughs]

Dhonielle: – writing, because she knows that I love her work, and I’m, like, a super fan, like first person to read her book, like, you know. So yeah, and it’s just fun to do a project with one of my best friends, because it’s an extension of that love.

Zoraida: And it doesn’t feel like work.

Dhonielle: No!

Sarah: No.

Zoraida: So –

Sarah: Doesn’t sound like work either. Sounds like you guys are having a really good time!

Dhonielle: We are! And we have to coordinate and all of that, and sometimes we’re like, oh no! We act like, we have to do this!

Zoraida: – have this episode done now, and we cannot, so –

Dhonielle: Right, yeah. But that’s, that happens, but, like, we each have our sort of role. I make the, like, overview for the episodes. She does all the tech stuff because I’m a dunce and I’m old and I don’t know how to do it. So, like, we, yeah, we work on, we work on things, and I’m, like, super proud of our little baby podcast. Our little love letter to deadlines.

Sarah: [Laughs] One of the things I love about it is not only is there, you’re, you’re listening to your friendship. You know, people get to listen to your friendship and the way you talk to each other –

Dhonielle: [Laughs]

Sarah: – as writers and as friends, and you have that underlying core of unquestionable support. Like, I am going to support this person. Even when I think you’re making the wrong call, I’m going to tell you about it. But at the same time, like you mentioned earlier, you’re also very frank about ambition and being ambitious, and there’s this, there’s this portrayal of writing that I see online so often where it has to be led with almost a false humility? Like, you have to be –

Dhonielle: Yes.

Sarah: – grateful for the chance you were given, and someone took a chance on you. I’m like, no, you worked your butt off!

Dhonielle: Exactly.

Sarah: Say you worked your butt off! This is hard! I get really –

Dhonielle: Exactly.

Sarah: – [laughs] – I get really frustrated with that!

Dhonielle: And, like, forget, forget that, like, oh, luck, Lady Luck has shined their grace on me and I’ve been plucked out of whatever. No. I’ve been kicking at this door and staring in this window and, like, showing up every day.

Sarah: Yep.

Dhonielle: That’s why I’m here –

Sarah: Yep.

Dhonielle: – and I’m unapologetic about it, and Zoraida as well. Like, we have been clawing our way, blood, sweat, and tears.

Zoraida: Yeah, it’s, it’s one of the things that we say; we say that exact same thing all the time. It’s that people want authors to feel like they should be thankful for just being in the room when, no, like, this is our work. You’re supposed to be helping us, and so that’s one of the things that we really want to carry across.

Sarah: Have you ever, have you received feedback about your episodes? Are there people who are like, oh, you’re, you, you talk too much about ambition or you talk too much about the, about how the process works? Is there any feedback where you’re like, well, that’s kind of the point of why we’re doing this?

Zoraida: I don’t, noth-, nothing neg-, I don’t think anything negative at the moment?

Sarah: Good!

Zoraida: Dhonielle?

Sarah: [Laughs]

Dhonielle: We, I had one of my –

Zoraida: Oh!

Dhonielle: – my writing partner –

Zoraida: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dhonielle: – Sona, her husband teaches at, like, a community college, and, and at college he teaches all of these different – he’s an adjunct – all of these courses, and he makes his writing students listen to Deadline City as one of their curricular activities that they have to do to pass his class, and so we –

Sarah: Awesome!

Dhonielle: – and so they write papers about the podcast, and so they’re like eighteen- or nineteen-year-olds that are, like, fresh out of high school, first year of college, trying to be writers, and so he’ll send us a paper sometimes and it’ll be, like, people complaining that we talk about sexy men too much –

[Laughter]

Dhonielle: – or, like, that, they’re like, oh, my brain oozed out of my ears because they couldn’t stop talking about the, the hot guy they like, and I’m like, it’s ‘cause you’re nineteen and you don’t have chest hair yet. Like, that’s why you’re mad.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Dhonielle: That’s why you’re mad! So it’s fine. It’s fine. That’s the kind of complaint we get is that we, like, stop to talk about sexy men, and people get mad; like, nineteen-year-olds get mad.

Sarah: Who, who, I, I get – [sputters, sighs] – okay. All right.

Dhonielle: Yeah. So.

Zoraida: We don’t try to –

Sarah: All right. All right!

Zoraida: – understand it, but we can just only ever be ourselves. [Laughs]

Sarah: Yep! Yep. And that’s the, that’s the lovely thing about listening to it: your absolutely, unapologetically ambitious, supportive selves. It’s wonderful!

Dhonielle: Yeah.

Sarah: So do you have any favorite or memorable episodes that you like the most?

Zoraida: We’ve had so many good, we’ve had so many good runs. I think I really loved –

Dhonielle: I have some.

Zoraida: – like, recently, I really loved our episode with Jason Reynolds because you can see –

Dhonielle: I knew you were going to steal that one from me! Go ahead!

Sarah: [Laughs]

Zoraida: I love, I love the way that he thinks about writing and just constantly, just pushing you to be a better writer, right, and that’s his message, but also the way that Dhonielle just is mean to him, and –

[Laughter]

Zoraida: – and he takes it –

Dhonielle: Just know –

Zoraida: – with so much grace.

Dhonielle: But jut know that, literally, he is another one of my best friends, a part of my heart, and so I argue with him like this in public and in private –

Zoraida: Mm-hmm.

Dhonielle: – so, but it’s like our dynamic! [Laughs]

Zoraida: Yeah, and we had, we’ve had some really good, some really fun episodes, and I can’t think of them off the top of my head. What about you, D?

Dhonielle: I love Victoria Schwab. We did one – was that season one where we did — 

Zoraida: That was season one; that’s our fourth episode.

Dhonielle: Oh my gosh. And we just talked about what makes a good villain! And I love that one because it is also a glimpse into the three of us and our relationship, and she is really our little missing link in Deadline City? We would, if, if America had gotten its shit together with coronavirus, we would be in Scotland with her.

Zoraida: Yeah, that’s true.

Dhonielle: Like, literally, for, like, the month of August, working. She is our little missing heart of Deadline City. So, ‘cause she works at the same level as we do, and so you get a glimpse into sort of like, when we’re on retreats, when we’re together, this is what we talk about. This kind of stuff, that we’re talking about the work, but we’re talking about it in a way to think about story, and so I really love that episode.

I, I like –

Zoraida: I love the –

Dhonielle: Oh yes.

Zoraida: – we did a, the Land of Disappointment, where we just got really honest –

Dhonielle: Yeah.

Zoraida: – about, like, disappointments in, in publishing, and that was episode, that was season one as well.

Sarah and Dhonielle: Yeah.

Sarah: You’ve mentioned a couple times writing at your level. What is writing at your level?

Dhonielle: I would say, Zoraida and I don’t get paid the big bucks, so we have to scramble with a lot of different contracts in order –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Dhonielle: – to make ends meet, and so level not meaning like, we’re big dogs. Level meaning –

Sarah: No!

Dhonielle: – I think we’re underdogs, and we’ve had to really scrape together to make this career work, and so therefore we’re always balancing a lot of projects. I always have trouble with some of my friends who are like, oh, I’m just working on this one thing, and then they’re like, you know, luxuriating in the one thing that they’ve been paid really, really well to work on, and the, and that’s just never happened for me, so I don’t get to do that. I have to, I have to scramble. I have to prioritize and –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Dhonielle: – juggle a lot of projects, so I’m waiting for that big payday where I just get to work on one book at a time, but that has not been my life since I entered this business in 2013, in 2014 when I – I guess I sold in 2013, but I didn’t come out, my book, first book didn’t come out till 2015. So that level of, like, we have a lot of projects; there’s a lot of work. There, I cannot be lax, so that’s what I mean when I say at that, that level. Am I right, Zoraida?

Sarah: That makes sense.

Dhonielle: Do you agree?

Zoraida: Yeah, no, you’re right; you’re absolutely right.

Sarah: So the, there’s also the, the element of looking at what’s next while you’re working on what’s right now.

Zoraida: Yeah. We can’t enjoy the right now, I think, for the most part, which is hard. And, and sort of, it’s like living paycheck to paycheck, but creatively, which is frustrating? ‘Cause I, I almost envy the authors who can, they write one book every five years, and they promote that one book for five years. [Laughs] And, you know, like –

Dhonielle: They’re like, what is this life? What is that like?

Zoraida: – that would be great, and they have that five years to write the next book! And, and it’s just, and it’s different financial circumstances. They could either have, like, they could be either earning royalties, or they could have a spouse, or they could just, like –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Zoraida: – have gotten paid really well in the beginning so it lasts them for, like, those five years. So it’s, it’s, everyone has different circumstances, but I still, I, I would love to write not four books a year or – [laughs] –

Dhonielle: Mm-hmm!

Zoraida: And so eventually that will happen, but for now this is what I have to do, and I, I’m not, I’m not, I do not resent my own ambition, so I’m, I’m happy with it.

Sarah: I think that’s so important, not resenting your own ambition, but being at peace with that’s how, that’s how you are as a business person and as a creative person.

You’re both very engaged activists in multiple communities, and that is also a lot of work, and we’ve talked about sleeping and needing sleep and looking after your work deadlines as something that you take very seriously. What else do you do to care for yourselves and your energy levels and your attention levels as creative people, especially lately?

Dhonielle: [Laughs] Zoraida, you can go first!

[Laughter]

Zoraida: I honestly do not take care of myself. I’m, right now, I, I’m constantly tired. My brother is like, he yells at me to eat sometimes – you know, you haven’t eaten yet! – and then he’ll make spaghetti and make, and make me eat, because I, I’ll just, I’ll just work through it and, and not, not pay attention to my body. I’m hungry right now. [Laughs] But I think that the one thing that helps my attention level and my focus level is Dhonielle and I will co-write. We’ll, we’ll just get on FaceTime and just write in silence together –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Zoraida: – and that’s sort of our accountability. We do, like, sprints for twenty-five, you know, twenty-five minutes each and stuff like that, so that’s, that’s something that we can, that I use to help me maintain that. But for the most part, I’m, like, holding on as hard, as fast – you know, I, I think that it’s just ‘cause I come from a family where –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Zoraida: – you have to get the work done, no matter what’s happening, so there’s no, there’s no time for me to – I can wallow when I’m about to go to sleep and, and, like, let all that exhaustion, like, you know, happen, but when it’s time to work it’s time to work, and, and I don’t get the, I don’t have the time to sort of –

Dhonielle: Right. We’ve not given permission –

Zoraida: – to take that down time as much.

Dhonielle: – to opt out of the work, and I think it comes from our backgrounds. I come from farming people. You get up every day and you go to work. People who didn’t have a lot of money, right. You have to –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Dhonielle: – survive, you have to eat, so you have to work. So I don’t care if you’re tired; I don’t care if you have anxiety; I don’t care if the world is burning. You have to work, or you’re going to be out on the street, and so I think that, does it create an unhealthy work ethic? Absolutely! But it also creates a work ethic – no, it’s definitely not, and what I’ve been building into is –

Zoraida: And it’s not a healthy way to live. [Laughs]

Dhonielle: – you know, I take the sleep that I need. I always will sleep, because I need it.

Sarah: Yeah.

Dhonielle: I can’t function. I eat the things I want to eat. [Laughs] I’m a stress starver, so I also have to plan my meals, but I do let myself eat the things I want to eat as fuel, and I try to give myself something to work for, work towards, right, like, oh, I’m working with Zoraida tonight: great, great. Friday night, we’re doing a watch party of our friend’s show. Great! If I get all my work done so I can really fully enjoy, like, this treat that I get, you know. I also make sure that I treat myself, whether it’s, well, before it was, like, getting a mani pedi and massage, but now in the land of corona –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Dhonielle: – I’ve got to do –

Zoraida: Right! That used to be what I did, right. I, I finished a, I finished my book! I can go get a mani pedi.

Dhonielle: No, it’s more work!

Zoraida: I don’t like giving myself mani pedis as, as rewards.

Dhonielle: To yourself.

Zoraida: [Laughs]

Dhonielle: And so I just think we’re still getting to new normal? We’re still getting –

Sarah: Yeah.

Dhonielle: – to, like, how can I, in my own house, treat myself? And sometimes, I’m going to be honest with you, it’s, you know, a combination of really good whiskey and some adult gummies. Just – [laughs] – you know, just to –

Sarah: I hear you!

Dhonielle: – relax, and I have to earn my good glass of whiskey.

Zoraida: [Laughs]

Dhonielle: And it’s – yeah! Or make a hot toddy.

Zoraida: I do, I do earn my, my glass of — I just have my bourbon.

Dhonielle: It’s like the small, little things, and I, like, cook myself a steak.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Dhonielle: So I’m really trying to create routines that replenish me? And listening to audiobooks and, you know, saving that book that I get. So –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Dhonielle: – slowly but surely. Definitely more meltdowns than anything else. [Laughs]

Sarah: It’s hard to, it’s hard sometimes, I think, I know for myself, to nourish ambition and also nourish myself, ‘cause sometimes they’re at odds.

Dhonielle: Yes. Absolutely.

Sarah: So I want to ask about those audiobooks. What, what books are you reading or listening to that you want to tell people about? This is my favorite question to ask people.

Zoraida: Dhonielle, you want to go first?

Dhonielle: Why do I have to go first? ‘Cause you listen more than me!

Zoraida: ‘Cause you told me to go first last time!

Dhonielle: She’s so annoying!

[Laughter]

Dhonielle: I signed up for this. I’m really into and re-listening to A Discovery of Witches? The books are really – I don’t know; I’m, I’m just a sucker, and I got sucked into this train. On this train! I’m here for it! So I’m listening to the audio right now. So I’m really into those.

I’m looking at, I’m going to look at my Audible, in the adult space.

Zoraida: I recently finished The Poppy War, which was brutal. Beautiful, just, you know, it’s, it’s fantastic writing, but it was so violent. I was like, this is, like, this is intense. So I’m excited to, to pick up the sequel.

I really loved, I listened to, finished the, the audiobook for A Song of Wraiths and Ruin by Roseanne Brown is fantastic. The, the narrators have such great voices that you can just, you can really sit with, and, and I – so one of my pet peeves in, in, in audiobooks is when people do accents really heavily and it’s almost cartoonish, and none of that happens in this book.

Sarah: Ooh!

Zoraida: And so that’s, that was, that’s such a great, like, it was really refreshing. So that was another book that I recently read and enjoyed.

Sarah: What is next right now? What’s the next thing you’re doing?

Zoraida: We have a lot of secret projects on the way, but I’m, I’m mostly focusing on vampires, and I’m in an anthology called Come On In, which is fifteen stories about immigration, and I wrote my first contemporary, contemporary piece, and it’s, it’s, it’s actually a, a, it’s a comedy, which, you know, not everybody expects immigration things to be about comedies, but I really wanted to, to lighten that up.

Dhonielle: [Laughs]

Zoraida: And, and the story’s called the “Confessions of an Ecuadorkian,” because –

Sarah: Ah!

Zoraida: – I am, I’m from Ecuador myself.

[Laughter]

Sarah: What –

Zoraida: That is something that somebody called me once, and I will never forget it. [Laughs]

Sarah: Ecuadorkian is the best word I’ve heard in my life. Are you writing anymore contemporary romances?

Zoraida: I would love that. I, I am, little by little, writing some ridiculous romance that I’ll probably self-publish, and also I have ideas for some other, more women’s-fiction-y – I’m trying to combine, like, women’s fiction with rom-coms, and I don’t know if I, if it’s, if, like, publishing will let me do it, but I don’t care. I’m just going to, I’m just going to write a really good story. And so I have a couple of romance novels that I would love to write. It’s just, it’s a matter of time – it’s a matter of, of time –

Sarah: Yeah.

Zoraida: – right.

Sarah: Always.

Zoraida: What time do I have? I do have, working on another middle-grade, and, and lit-, I, I think the, the rest of my year is already just booked. [Laughs]

Sarah: Yeah. Literally and figuratively. What about you, Dhonielle?

Dhonielle: Yes.

Sarah: What are you doing? What’s next? What are you working on?

Dhonielle: [Sighs] Ohhh, well, I am writing my first adult book.

Sarah: Yay!

Dhonielle: It’s set in the world of the short story that is in Zoraida’s anthology coming out in September, so if you want a little taste of the world, it’s there. So I’m finishing on, up that and working on that.

I am – oof! – trying to find a work-life balance, but I don’t know what that is. [Laughs] I think it’s more of, I have an emotional goal of not feeling bad when people email me more than twice to get a response, that I can take my time to get back to people? So I’m working on that as a goal.

Also, I have the book of, the series of my heart that is about to announce, which is for little people, for middle-grade readers, so I’m excited for that and writing more books in that series. I need to get started on those things.

So, and my Netflix show based on my first series, Tiny Pretty Things, launches sometime this fall.

Sarah: Yay!

Dhonielle: I wish I could tell you right now when it is, but I am under lock and key, and I’m excited for that to be out in the world.

Sarah: Do you ever look back and think, if I could just tell my past self that someday I would say the words “my Netflix series” –

Dhonielle: [Laughs]

Sarah: – do you think Past Dhonielle would be, would, would believe you?

Dhonielle: Yes, because I have an inflated sense of self. [Laughs] And –

Sarah: I don’t think it’s inflated! I think it’s dead accurate! That’s amazing!

Dhonielle: I’m, I’m a workhorse, and I’m one of those people that I’m stubborn, and I just keep trying –

Sarah: Yep.

Dhonielle: – and trying and trying until I get the thing that I want, because I’m a spoiled brat –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Dhonielle: – and so I always was like, this is what I want: I want to see my work translated to screen and TV, and I’m going to write books that feel that way and do whatever it takes, and so – besides murder – to make that happen, and so yeah! I just, I just really believe in the work. People are always like, oh, you got lucky! I’m like, no, I think, I think saying someone, luck? I guess I just don’t really believe in, in luck in the same way. I think that it undercuts the work.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Dhonielle: I’ve been working really hard, seven days a week.

Sarah: I, I think there’s a quote from Seneca that luck is the intersection of opportunity and preparation.

Dhonielle: Mm-hmm!

Sarah: Opportunity just doesn’t show up and be like, you, random person! You have to have prepared to meet, to be at that intersection when it happens. So –

Dhonielle: Yep, I’ve been ready.

Sarah: Yeah. And it’s almost as if the, the, the underlying motivation is, well, why not? Who’s going to stop me? Why not? Run it up the flagpole! Who’s going to stop me? Why shouldn’t I?

Dhonielle: Exactly. And it’s like, I’m just going to keep trying. Everything. Let’s try this; let’s try that; let’s try this. And that’s another reason why collaborating with Zoraida is so much fun, is because she also has that. She’s like, let’s try it! Why not? She always says, why not? Let’s see what happens! Don’t be scared.

Zoraida: I, yeah! I think that one of the thin-, I, when, when Dhonielle has a crazy idea –

Dhonielle: [Laughs]

Zoraida: – or I have a crazy idea, Dhonielle will, will, will just say, let’s, yeah, let’s do it. Why not? Why, what do we have to lose, other than our, our very valuable time? You can’t, you can’t succeed without trying some-, trying at something. And I am more pragmatic than Dhonielle is, but I think that that’s why we probably work well together?

Dhonielle: Yes. She tries to clip my wings!

Zoraida: Nooo! No!

[Laughter]

Dhonielle: It’s ‘cause she’s a Cancer and she’s a crab in the sand, and I’m a Gemini, okay? I have a lot of, I’m in the air. I’m always like, what can we do? What are the things? Let’s do this!

Sarah: I am, I am also a Gemini, so –

Dhonielle: Yes!

Sarah: – and I, I know this feeling. Well, okay, why not? Let’s try it! Sure! Whee!

Zoraida: [Laughs]

Dhonielle: Whee! Exactly! I’m on a swing, like, yes! And Zoraida’s like, okay, but –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Dhonielle: – and then she takes out her little crabby pincers, and she’s like, what about this? What about this? What about this? This, this, this, this?

Zoraida: Yeah! I’m like, well, let’s – I, I like to look at all the possible outcomes –

Dhonielle: [Laughs]

Zoraida: – to prepare myself!

Dhonielle: See?

Sarah: And I am right at the edge of the Gemini towards Cancer? So there’s like one side of me is like, let’s do all the things! And the other side’s like, yeah, but sleeping?

[Laughter]

Sarah: Sleeping’s good!

Dhonielle: Sleeping is good. But you’re right –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Dhonielle: – it’s, it’s just hard out here. My brain, I get, I’m a big excited person –

Sarah: Oh, me too, me too! Have you seen my website that is now my job?

[Laughter]

Zoraida: And I don’t, I don’t get excited until I see a proof of something.

Dhonielle: I know. I –

Sarah: Ohhh!

Dhonielle: – I get excited on her behalf when she calls me about things, and I’m like, why aren’t you excited? She’s like, I am, bro, but it’s such, I’m nervous! And I’m like, well, I will be the excited one, and then you can join me in the excitement when you’re ready. I’m partying over here with the champagne.

Zoraida: [Sings] Party all the time!

Dhonielle: Exactly, so –

Sarah: Oh!

Dhonielle: It’s a good, it’s a good balance that we have, but we have big dreams for Deadline City; we’ve got big dreams for ourselves and, like, some future things coming.

[music]

Sarah: And that brings us to the end of this week’s episode. Thank you to Zoraida and Dhonielle for hanging out with me. I love doing podcast interviews with fellow podcasters because you just sort of turn on the mic – [laughs] – and everyone has a really good time! Thank you so much for hanging out with me, and I hope you enjoyed our conversation as much as I did.

I will have links where you can find them on the internet, and of course I will have links to all of the books that we talked about, including Vampires Never Get Old, which is pretty awesome. Trust me; I’m really enjoying it.

You can get in touch with me at [email protected]. You can also leave a message and tell me a bad joke at 1-201-371-3272. I love hearing from you all, and if you have a request for recommendations from me and Amanda, she’ll be back in an upcoming episode, and we are more than happy to tell you what books to read, ‘cause we’re really good at it, especially Amanda.

Now, are you ready for a really bad joke? It’s really bad. That’s why I love it! Okay, you ready?

Where did Noah put all the bees on the ark?

Give up? Where did Noah put all the bees on the ark?

In the ark-hives.

[Laughs] In the archives! That joke is from JP Seven on Reddit, and I love it so much! Ark-hives! [Laughs again] Nothing like a good archive joke, right? Right! Of course!

On behalf of everyone here, we wish you a marvelous week, and if you are listening on the day this episode releases, on September 18th or over this weekend, it is the start of Rosh Hashanah, the Jewish New Year, 5781. L’shanah tovah tikateivu if you are celebrating. May we all be inscribed for a healthy, happy, and safe new year.

Smart Podcast, Trashy Books is part of the Frolic Podcast Network. You can find more outstanding podcasts to subscribe to at frolic.media/podcasts.

[totally awesome music]