346: Fuchsia has Followed Us Everywhere: Deep Diving Into Romance Cover Art with Kelly Faircloth

[music]

Sarah Wendell: Hello, and welcome to episode number 346 of Smart Podcast, Trashy Books. I am Sarah Wendell from Smart Bitches, Trashy Books. Today, for this episode, fuchsia has followed us everywhere. We are deep-diving into the history of romance cover art with Kelly Faircloth. Kelly is a senior writer for Jezebel and a frequent writer of excellent journalism about romance. I’ve interviewed her before, but this time I’m going to talk to her about her Valentine’s Day feature which examined the artists behind the romance cover art that we know and love. Here are the top four titles that I almost used for this episode:

Number four: Fuchsia, Teal, or Both?

Number three: Busting Open Historical Bodices

Number two: Sarah and Kelly Hunt for Boners

And the number one, I almost used this: Fuchsia Is Indeed a Genre Descriptor.

You know that romance cover art is one of my favorite things, so I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did.

And speaking of things that we enjoy, if you are attending Book Lovers Con in New Orleans in May and you would like to come see us record a podcast live, it would be so great if you came! Thursday, May 16, 3:30 p.m. local time at the Hyatt Regency in New Orleans, Amanda, Elyse, and I are going to record a live show at Book Lovers Con, and I hope you’ll join us! We’re going to play Cards Against Romance Tropes, I might pepper them with terrible trivia, we’ll definitely be silly about something, and there will probably also be wine. We’ll be in Imperial 5C, and this is free for attendees of Book Lovers Con, but we are asking for folks to register so we know how many chairs we’ll need. I have links in the show notes to sign up and RSVP and let us know you’re coming, and I hope that if you’re attending Book Lovers Con you will come hang out with us for the live show, ‘cause it’s really fun to do this in front of an audience, as opposed to just me in a room talking into a box. That is also fun! But this is way better.

Each episode of the podcast, as you know, receives a transcript, and the transcripts are compiled by garlicknitter – thank you, garlicknitter! – and this one is brought to you by the Patreon community. The podcast has a Patreon at patreon.com/SmartBitches, and every pledge helps me make sure that every episode has a transcript and helps keep the show going. Monthly pledges start at one dollar, and because goals are always good to have, I have some new patron goals to try to level up the podcast, so here’s the deal: if I get to 350 patrons, we will start hosting quarterly Ask Us Anything conversations. You want book recs? You want, need, need advice? You want us to tell you what to wear? What color should you paint your kitchen? You can ask us; we will give you uncommonly good answers. Other goals include an exclusive audio feed just for patrons and the option for a live call-in show. Have a look at patreon.com/SmartBitches to see how close we are, and maybe you can join in. It would be wonderful if you did. Your support for the show means a lot, so thank you.

Speaking of, I have two compliments this week! I love doing this; this is so fun! Okay.

Amanda P.: You have worked hecking hard for your accomplishment and the things that bring you joy, and you deserve to feel exceptionally excellent about them. Good job!

And to Kirsten – I hope I’m saying that correctly: There is a new line of scented candles, and one of them was inspired by you! It is the bestseller, and it does not give a single person anywhere a scent headache. Excellent!

And I have a special message this week for Angelica M.: Keep going! You have got this!

The music you are listening to is provided by Sassy Outwater. I will have information at the end of the show as to who this is. I will also have a preview of what is coming up on Smart Bitches this coming week, and at the very, very end, I have a terrible joke. This one’s so bad! I love it so much, I’ve been torturing my kids with it, so I hope – [laughs] – hope you stay to the end. I also will have links to some of the topics that we talk about in our conversation, a link to a Q & A that I reference, and of course a link to the original piece that inspired this entire interview, plus all the books that we talked about, including with their original covers, because if you’re going to talk about seeing Fabio in purple tights, then you want to see Fabio in purple tights, right? Right, of course!

Zeb: Bark, bark! Woof, woof, woof!

Sarah: The garbage truck has arrived. It is time for Zeb to be barking, which means that is time for me to move on to editing this podcast. Let’s do the show: on with the interview with Kelly Faircloth.

[music]

Sarah: Do you know about the podcast You’re Wrong About…?

Kelly Faircloth: I do, and I keep meaning to, like, sit down and start listening to it, because I’ve seen several go by where I was like, oh, I’m curious about that! Oh, I’m curious about that! Oh, I’m also curious about that! So –

Sarah: Okay, this is so much your catnip. Like, I cannot more emphatically personally recommend this to you?

Kelly: [Laughs]

Sarah: Because the two journalists who do it are exactly the kind of journalist you are, which is, I’m going to take the deepest submersible into the past of nerdom that I possibly can, and I’m going to get one of those pressure suits, and it’s going to be great! And Sarah Marshall, who’s the – there’s a dude and a woman; like, the guy is Mike Hobbes, and the, the dude is, or the woman is Sarah Marshall –

Kelly: Mm-hmm?

Sarah: – which is a really unfortunate name, I think, ‘cause there’s, like, been a bunch of movie heroines named Sarah Marshall?

Kelly: [Laughs]

Sarah: Anyway, each episode, she says something that is incredible. Like, there’s one episode about You’re Wrong About… “Alpha Males,” which, as you might imagine, is –

Kelly: Uh-huh.

Sarah: – relevant to my interests, right?

Kelly: Deeply.

Sarah: So the entire deconstruction of why this term came into our lexicon and in our culture is fascinating – [laughs] – but at one point – I love this quote so much I wrote it down, and I might have to cross-stitch it? – she says, and I quote, “White men can’t be motivated to do anything unless you call it a hack, and then they jump right on it.”

Kelly: [Laughs] For dudes!

Sarah: Right?!

Kelly: Oh boy.

Sarah: It’s incredible! It’s, it’s exactly the kind of journalism I think that you would dig, because it takes a really deep nerdy dive, and the other general rule of the show is, if a, if a prominent dude’s downfall is being blamed on a woman, take another look.

Kelly: Oh yeah. That sounds, like, extremely relevant to my interests.

Sarah: Oh, it’s, it’s very much your catnip. I am really sorry for all the time you’re about to lose.

Kelly: [Laughs] Well, it’s good, because I’ve run out of episodes of my favorite podcast, which is BBC’s In Our Time, which is –

Sarah: Ohhh?

Kelly: – or, or this, like, ex- – okay, so the, it’s like, I mean, it’s been going for, like, twenty or thirty years. It’s this host, and what he does is he picks a topic like Jane Eyre or, like, Elizabeth Gaskell or, like, like, late Medieval Renaissance, whatever, or something – not late Medieval Renaissance, but you know what I mean – like, some –

Sarah: Yeah!

Kelly: – specific topic, and he gets three academic experts, and he puts them all in a panel, and he bosses them around, and it is just the most, the best, it is so good, it is so fascinating, I learn so much from it, and I have listened to, like, so much of the archives that I, I, like, now I’m, like, waiting every week for something to load, so I’m, like, constantly looking for stuff to listen to when I’m, when I’m between In Our Time podcasts, so.

Sarah: Oh, you, you are going to be so happy.

Kelly: [Laughs]

Sarah: Would you please introduce yourself and tell the people who will be listening who you are and what you do? When we’re not talking about podcasts, obviously.

Kelly: So my name is Kelly Faircloth. I’m a senior writer for jezebel.com. I cover things like women’s history and books, and I particularly love to write about the history of romance novels, which I’m obsessed with ever since I stole my mother’s copy of The Wolf and the Dove, and now I have spent a lifetime reading romance novels and also telling my editors fun facts about the history of the genre until they say, Kelly, I swear to God, if you don’t write a piece about this.

Sarah: [Laughs] I remember at an RWA – I think it might have been the last RWA in New York – I was sitting in a corner charging my computer, and you came and sat down next to me, and I was like, hey! And I never told you this, but my inner thirteen-year-old completely lost her shit.

Kelly: [Laughs]

Sarah: Like – [gasps!] – oh my God, Kelly Faircloth just sat down next to me on the carpet! Holy shit! I’m sharing the power with Kelly, oh my God! Yeah, I was, it was a big moment for me.

Kelly: Well –

Sarah: So you and I –

Kelly: – I was the same way, because I was like, oh my God, it’s Sarah! It’s Smart Bitch Sarah!

Sarah: [Laughs]

Kelly: Oh my God! And also, there really weren’t enough power outlets.

Sarah: No! There are never enough power outlets. They will take over the men’s rooms and turn them into ladies’ rooms in ways that every year I find absolutely amazing; like, they put flowers and tablecloths on the urinals in case we, you know, were inclined to use them or something, but every year men’s rooms will be turned into women’s room, but there’s never enough power outlets.

Kelly: Let’s run a generator in one of those men’s rooms.

Sarah: Right, I’m going to bring the world’s biggest Squid. It’ll be like the undersea giant squid with, like, sixty outlets. That’d be quite a money maker, actually: rent a power, power outlet?

Kelly: [Laughs] That’d be pretty good.

Sarah: And then put it, like, right next to a sensory deprivation tank for all the introverts?

Kelly: Sounds great.

Sarah: Yeah, right? Where’s my venture capitalist? So you and I have a very large overlap of our interests when it comes to romance, particularly the covers, because, as you know, I also adore them. You wrote a wonderful essay, published on Valentine’s Day, and as I’m sure you are aware, the whole genre sort of, like, assumes a defensive posture around February 1st, ‘cause we know what’s coming, and it’s not going to be good, and then you did this incredibly cool and deep dive into covers and how they, how they came to be the way they looked and still look, and who were the women who we don’t know about behind them? What led to your writing about this, and do you like fuchsia, or do you prefer the, the teal ones?

Kelly: [Laughs] I like fuchsia. I love fuchsia. I love everything about fuchsia. But you know, I –

Sarah: I love how it’s spelled. [Laughs]

Kelly: – but I’m not mad at teal.

Sarah: No! No!

[Laughter]

Kelly: So this is when, like, you know, I, like, I’m always, like, looking for sort of interesting ways into the topic, because I love writing about it, and I love reading about it, and this is one where I will sort of realize that, like, you know, that there are things that, like, you know, I know because I’m so obsessed with the history of it, where I can actually, like, I, where I’m like, oh, this is actually an entire piece, and I can, like, write it, you know, and, like, you know, fairly quickly, because I’m so, like, I’m, you know, I just, like, read this stuff for fun. I enjoy, like, doing these research deep dives, and it’s something that, that’s, people are, it’s, it’s, what I like is this gap between, like, like, we were talking about the podcast You’re Wrong About…, and I love that kind of knowledge gap where it’s something that’s very familiar to people, but they don’t know anything about it? And I think that covers, romance covers are sort of the perfect example of that where, like, you know, I, like, I opened the piece with this, this, this clip I actually found by accident – I didn’t know I was going to find it – of Johnny Carson making fun of the covers, and it’s like, to me, that typifies, like, the way so many people have encountered the genre, which is everybody knows the covers. The covers are this incredibly iconic, famous visual style, but people picked –

Sarah: Yes.

Kelly: – a specific type of the covers on a specific type of the books, and I was really curious about, like – and, and, and, like, readers see certain things when they look at those covers, and non-readers see a different side of things, and I’m, I’m just sort of like really interested in any sort of, you know, moment where there’s, like, a gap between what people see and what people know and, and, like, where you can sort of tell, tell people something that, you know, like, tell people like a backstory or like a larger story that they didn’t know. So it was, like, exactly the type of thing that I love to write about, basically. [Laughs]

Sarah: Well, I mean, there’s so much to talk about, because the minute you sort of like tug that one string, there is so much there.

Kelly: Yeah, yeah. That’s what was great about it! I mean, like, I kind of, honestly, I, like, I could have written, you know, I, like, I, you could write a, an entire book about it, and I would love to write an entire book about it one day, because it’s like, it’s just, it’s, like, so rich, and it’s such an interesting – like, I mean, a lot of this was happening in like the late ‘70s and the early to mid ‘80s and the early ‘90s –

Sarah: Yep.

Kelly: – when a lot of interesting stuff was happening about, like, around gender roles and, like, and, and all this sort of stuff anyways, so there’s, like, a lot going on that’s interesting. Like, it intersects in interesting ways with, like, the sort of broader cultural currents in a way that I think is, you know, really interesting, but then you can also just spend like, you can spend like a thousand words just, like, de-, like, describing these covers in all their beautiful glory, and then, then you’ve, like, written half of an essay, and you know, so there you are? [Laughs]

Sarah: Yep. And the minute you put those images up, everyone is an expert on them!

Kelly: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm!

Sarah: Which is, which is incredible to me! Like, everyone knows exactly what they’re talking about!

Kelly: [Laughs] It’s amazing how true that is in, in so, in so many respects about so many things!

Sarah: Yes, especially when women are involved.

Kelly: Yeah, of course, of course.

Sarah: So in this essay, you kept looking for the names of the people, often women, who were behind the scenes influencing and creating this style that we are all so familiar with. How much research did you do? How did you do some of it? What did you, like, where, what was the string that you started pulling on to be like, okay, who actually made these?

Kelly: So I think what really, like, unlocked it for me was, you know, I knew, like, I knew about a couple of the male illustrators, like – oh God, I’m going to get his name wrong, but I think Frank Kalan did a lot of the Harl-, like, famous Harlequin illustrations, and he’s really interesting to me, and, you know, but I, I went looking specifically for, like, sort of who made Fabio? And I real, I found Elaine Duillo, and I was like, oh, well of course a woman made Fabio! You know, like, and I think it’s just, that’s always been, like, an interesting, you know, a lot of people have written about this and talked about this, like my article was written about this, like, how, like, you know, Fabio becomes the face of this entire genre that, like, is, you know, is mostly run by women, and, and I was like, to me that was just really fascinating to sort of, to, to, like, have a name and to think about, like, he sort of, you know, presented as this, like, this, like, this, sort of this independent phenomenon? Like, oh, you know, Fabio is this, like, you know, this sort of independent creature that exists in – there’s no broader context, and, like, there’s this –

Sarah: He burst out of the forehead of Zeus!

Kelly: Right, exactly! There’s this entire, like, industry and, like, you know, behind-the-scenes business that’s happening, that’s mostly, like, that’s mostly women, and, and, and the places where it’s not women is also, like, an interesting thing to look at, like, you know, thinking about, like, you know, a lot of times it’s like the g-, like, it’s guys in the, you know, corner office, and it’s, you know, men in the wholesale business buying the books, but it is, like, you know, it’s, like, once I realized that it was a woman who had painted those initial covers, I was like, oh, okay, here we go.

Sarah: Yep.

Kelly: And that made it obvious to me. I was like, oh, well, you know, I bet if I keep looking, this is going to turn up again and again and again, so.

Sarah: So that is exactly the story that I was told by Kate Duffy, who was an editor at Kensington, that when she would meet with all of these buyers – and this was her personal anecdata –

Kelly: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – that when she would meet with all of these buyers, it was hundreds of dudes from different small markets, so there’d be the Kroger buyer for the Austin greater area, and then –

Kelly: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – the Kroger buyer for another state, and they wanted romance, and they had an idea of what they wanted it to look like, and they always gravitated towards big hair and big tits – not a big surprise.

Kelly: Mm-hmm-hmm.

Sarah: And you’re saying it was more than that!

Kelly: I think, you know, I mean, I’m sure that, like, that absolutely was, like, an element of it. Like, to get, you know, to, to get the books on the shelves, you had to go through all those guys, because, like, that’s where the books were sold, you know, like, a lot of them, like, a lot of it was, you know, purchases were happening in places like, like, you know, the suburban Atlanta Kroger.

Sarah: Yep.

Kelly: But I do think that, like, you know, it’s not like, it’s, you know, ultimately who buys them, right? It’s like, you know –

Sarah: Right.

Kelly: – they have to go through the wholesaler first, but, like, it’s women, you know, who are buying these books at the endpoint, and I think that, like, I also was looking at, like, the archives of RT, and I think that, like, clearly, like, RT, you know, they always, like, really were drawing on this, like, visual style. Like, they were really using that on the covers of all of their issues and, you know, like, you know, there was this whole, like, you know, culture of, like, bookmarks of, you know, like, they would do, like, promote, you know, there were all these, like, promotional bookmarks and stuff like that, and I think it became –

Sarah: Yep.

Kelly: – you know, kind of clear to me that, like, you know, I think that, like, sort of – [laughs] – maybe we can explain the, like, bursting out of the dress by the wholesalers, but, like, I’m not sure that we can explain – like, I think there’s more to a clinch cover than just, than just that, you know? I think that, like, there’s the, like, obviously, there’s, like, there’s the guys, but there’s also, I think there’s other – I didn’t get into this as much in the piece, but I kind of wish I had, but, like, I think that part of the clinch cover, it isn’t just the clinch; it’s like, it is, like, the beautiful dress, and it’s like the, they’re always in some, like, fascinating landscape. Like, I would love to, like, sit down and count up how many of the, the covers had, like, boats in the background? Like, they’re always up on the high plains –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Kelly: – or there’s a boat, and it’s, like, about, like, adventure and, like, in these, like, you know, suppo-, like, spaces that are, you know, construct-, like, imagined to be, like, undomestic, and I think that there’s a lot of, you know, other things that are, that are going into that, that are sort of, that, that, that make up what a clinch cover is, and I think that that, I do think that, like, readers responded to that, and I think that, you know, I think that that, that’s definitely something that we have to, like, that’s, like, good to acknowledge.

Sarah: Oh, absolutely. It’s not just the dress, and it’s not just the, the clinch, and it’s not just the hair. There’s also the posture and the location and even the color scheme. It is, it is incredible to me how many of, how much overlap there is between, like, things are marketed towards teenagers and covers that are marketed on, on older romances.

Kelly: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: Like, fuchsia has followed me my whole life.

Kelly: [Laughs] You can’t escape it!

Sarah: I can’t! Wow, between Lisa Frank and this, it’s everywhere!

So what do you think are some of the elements, or the reasons behind those elements?

Kelly: I mean, I think that, like, especially with sort of the historicals, it was, like, about, you know, sort of like, it was about, you know, adventure and, like, these, you know, larger-than-life characters and these larger-than-life storylines and, like, you know, I, I, I think a lot about the term, like, bodice ripper and sort of quote-unquote, but, like, like, a lot of times if you look in the press of the time they’re calling them, like, bodice busters? And, like, I know that that’s, like, often used as, like, a pejorative against the genre, but I, I think it’s, like, useful to think about, like, what that can mean. Like, how, how we can, like, help that define, like, a subgenre in that, like, it was, like, it was, like, every, you know, like, if you read those early ones, it’s like, they are kind of like sort of, you know, in a larger, like in an almost metaphorical sense, bursting out of their bodice all the time –

Sarah: Oh yeah!

Kelly: – so it’s just like –

Sarah: It is a very literal name.

Kelly: I mean, like, they cannot be contained, and I think –

[Laughter]

Kelly: – I think a lot about this, like – I’m, I’m, I’m going to give away one of my favorite archival things that I have never written about but really want to: I think a lot about this other author who was really popular in the ‘70s called Marabel Morgan? She’s the, she’s the, the, the Saran Wrap lady? If you’ve ever seen Fried Green Tomatoes, where she’s, greets her husband in the Saran Wrap dress? And she was this woman, this, like, she was like an, an evangelical Christian woman, and she wrote all these self-help books about, like, how to, like, revitalize your marriage by totally submitting to your husband, and it was basically like, figure out what your husband likes and do it. If what your husband likes is you dressing up, like meeting your husband at the door in Saran Wrap, do it, and, like, just totally submit to him, and, like, you’ll be so happy, you’ll be a total woman, and I’m, like, really simplifying it, but, you know, I think that there’s, like, a contrast there between, like, you know, what, like, this, this – and she was like, she sold millions of books; she was very popular – like, what this woman was telling women and then sort of what probably some of the overlapping audience was reading in these, like, these bodice busters, which were like, you know, they, like, if you, like, read, like, the Woodiwiss and the Rogers, like, they’re, they fight all of the time!

[Laughter]

Sarah: Yes.

Kelly: And they’re, they –

Sarah: Slap, slap, kiss! Slap, slap, kiss!

Kelly: [Laughs] Yeah! And I think that –

Sarah: Slap, slap, rape, kiss! Yeah! Pretty much.

Kelly: And I think there’s something very interesting in, like, the, sort of the image of, like, argh! You know, like, I mean it’s like, just, you know, shuck all my clothing, and my hair’s going everywhere and, like, and then we’re going to get on a ship, and, like, I think there’s just something, like, you know, very interesting about that, like, that, you know, that says a lot about the time period and, and, you know, and the fantasy and, and stuff like that.

Sarah: And that things that seem extreme are often reacting to something else.

Kelly: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Sarah: So if, if, if this message is, you know, wrap yourself in Saran Wrap, submit to what your husband desires, become the embodiment of what your husband desires, the antithesis of that is, I am so full of adventure and rage and sex, I cannot even be contained by my clothing.

Kelly: Yeah, exactly! And I think that that’s so contrary to what the, the stereotype of the genre is, you know? I think that, like, it’s – [laughs] – I do think it is almost like people, like, people outside the genre imagine the bodices being ripped, and the people inside the genre imagine the bodices busting?

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah, there’s the, the heaving bosoms is, is, it is an internal eruption; it is not an external extraction.

Kelly: Mm-hmm. I love the heaving bosoms.

[Laughter]

Sarah: I’m, I’m a fan! I am a big fan. I don’t know if you know.

Kelly: You know, you might have mentioned it a time or two.

Sarah: I love them! A lot!

[Laughter]

Sarah: So what else that you had to cut that you had wished could have been in the article? ‘Cause I’m sure that the original draft that this was, like, what, ten grand? Ten, ten, ten K?

Kelly: Well, you know, I, I did, you know, just to pat myself on the back, I did a pretty good job of not overwriting this time, which is a new development.

[Laughter]

Kelly: So, you know, like, so my favorite scene in any movie is, you know, like the first twenty minutes of Casino, where they’re just explaining how the casino works? Like, I, like, basically, sort of the point of the piece was like, I wanted to give people, you know, sort of a general interest way in, and so it was sort of like talking about how, you know, this is the covers you picture versus this is what’s actually happening in the genre, and sort of unpacking a lot of that. Honestly, what I would have been just as happy to do is to write four thousand words on everything about the process of how these covers were created in this very specific moment, because I was, I’m just obsessed with this idea of, like, Elaine Duillo talking to Bertrice Small and then being like, oh, well, you know, the pe- – and I, I, I found this, this illustration magazine where Elaine Duillo was, like, talk-, like, explained a lot of her process, and she, you know, and it was interesting to hear, to read about sort of the cover creation in the context of the graphic art trade, you know, like, sort of, it was interesting to get that perspective? And it was like, I just am obsessed with this idea of, like, her talking to Bertrice Small about, like, what happens in the book, what period it is, so then she, like, goes to this studio, ‘cause apparently they all, they worked from photographs, and so they would go to this studio, this one specific studio where this guy had, like, a roster of models, this photographer had a roster of models, and he had, like, a big collection of props and costumes, and, you know –

Sarah: Yep.

Kelly: – he would pick the models, hire the models, put them in the costumes, he would shoot the photos, and then she would go back to Hicksville, Long Island, and she would paint this, this huge painting in, like, acrylic paint, and then she would bring it back in, and she would hand deliver it to the art department, and then they would all go to, like, the Society of the American Illustrator for lunch or drinks or whatever, and I was –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Kelly: – obsessed with, like, imagining her day? Like, just –

[Laughter]

Kelly: Like, I just, the idea of, like, Elaine Duillo on the, like, Long Island Rail Road to come deliver this giant acrylic painting of, like, Fabio is just, like – [laughs] – I cannot even tell you how much that thrills me to my core!

[Laughter]

Kelly: Like, I just, to me it’s like, it’s like, it’s like opposite day Mad Men, right? Like, Mad Men is about all these, like, you know, like, this, like, about this, like, troubled male creative genius, like, you know, sadly commuting in from Westchester? Like, the idea of just, like, I mean, you know, I don’t, like, I don’t know what she, you know, I don’t really have a clear picture of what she looked like, so of course I’m just, like, imagining her with, like, beautiful pink acrylic nails and, like, with this huge painting. It is, I’m just obsessed with this image! [Laughs]

Sarah: I did an interview several years ago that came about – this was, like, 2013, so this is already, you know, six years ago – with an artist whose name was Joe DiCesare, and he contacted me because I was writing about a Silhouette Desire cover –

Kelly: Oh yeah, those are good.

Sarah: – and, you know, the guy is standing in front of a burning sunset, and he’s got his thumb on his chin like it’s some kind of like Olan Mills photo shoot –

Kelly: Uh-huh?

Sarah: – and he contacted me and was like, yeah, I painted that. I painted so many of those. I have probably the original painting in my garage.

Kelly: Oh my God.

Sarah: I did, like, two hundred plus romance covers from ’84 to ’98, and it was really great to see my work on your site, and I was like, holy shit! So I emailed him back and did this really long interview, and the thing I remember that, that he, that he talked about was that, what he was basically doing at the time was creating what he called a photorealistic oil painting –

Kelly: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – which in current context is hilarious, because now people are taking color photographs and trying to make them look like oil paintings.

Kelly: I know; it’s amazing! [Laughs]

Sarah: ‘Cause it’s so expensive to have somebody commission an oil painting based on a, on a photo shoot, but it was the exact same thing. He went to a, a photographer, and he would take the shoots of the models, and then he would just embellish the hell out of it. You know, she might not have been wearing a dress with a brocade, but he was like, she needs brocade; let’s add some.

Kelly: [Laughs] So good!

Sarah: And he remembers so clearly – this is the detail that I was like, oh my gosh, Kelly needs to know about this – he remembers so clearly getting on the subway to take the photo, or take the, the flat to the publisher, and the paint would be still wet.

Kelly: Oh my God! I’m –

Sarah: So he’d be on the New York subway like, nobody fucking touch me!

Kelly: I just think the idea, I just, I just like, the idea of just, like, a huge, like, Silhouette Desire cover, like, on the 1 train is just like –

Sarah: Yes!

Kelly: – I just, like, can’t even tell you, like, how, how thrilling I find that. Like – [laughs] –

Sarah: I will send you a link to this interview so that you can, you can have it for your archives. The thing that I love is that this gentleman now works as a painter for DreamWorks.

Kelly: Really!

Sarah: He does digit-, he does digital matte painting. So you basically paint the backgrounds of, what he says, you paint in the background of the environmental elements that would be too costly to build. So the Emerald City was, in, in The Wizard of Oz, was a matte painting. There’s a whole series of the matte paintings that created the backdrops in Star Wars –

Kelly: Oh man.

Sarah: – which look real but are actually matte paintings. So digital matte painting is what he does, and he worked on How to Train Your Dragon 2 and did some of the clouds, which were really fricking realistic! [Laughs]

Kelly: Huh.

Sarah: So I love that this, you know, that this incredible skill goes into something that I still watch and enjoy.

Kelly: Uh-huh.

Sarah: And yet they’re trying to take photographs and make them into photorealistic oil paintings, and they did them by the hundreds.

Kelly: Huh. That’s so –

Sarah: Amazing!

Kelly: I just, I like, I just, I love that, like, like, it’s like this pocket universe that I wouldn’t know about –

Sarah: Yes!

Kelly: – if I hadn’t, like, started writing about this, and, like, it was so interesting to me the way they, like, clearly, like, it was like a, like a professional universe of people. Like, they knew each other. Like, Elaine Duillo –

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Kelly: – was married to a Western artist, like, who did, like, Western covers, and I think it’s, it’s just, like, so interesting to me, just, like, to just peek into this world is like, it’s just, it’s like a favorite, my favorite part of my job, and it was, this was a particularly fun world to peek into.

Sarah: When you were doing research for the, for the piece that ultimately ran on, on Valentine’s Day, what were some of the things that you discovered that you, just absolutely delighted you? What other things did you look for? I mean, you started with Johnny Carson, which I thought was incredible.

Kelly: Well, what’s funny is I went, I was, I went to the Paley Center in Manhattan, which, you know, they have all these clips. Like, it’s like a, like a TV archive, and I’m looking for, like, Joan, for clips of him. He appeared, like, so many times on The Joan Rivers Show, so I was, I was like, you know, I, I was looking for places where sort of, you know, this was sort of presented to sort of the mass, like the mass culture, you know, sort of the biggest possible audience; how was it presented? And I was like, I knew that he’d been on Joan Rivers several times. I was like, well, maybe I can find a clip of him on Joan Rivers, and I didn’t find the one I wanted. I found, like, the, the, you know, the image of him on her QVC show, which was also fascinating, and I highly recommend it if you ever watch episodes of that; it’s fascinating. But I, so, you know, I, I was, I started just sort of, like, the, you know, the last thing I do before I, like, leaving any sort of research thing like that is I just run a few more search terms through and just see what else I can find and, like, every variation of, like, Fabio, you know, like, Avon Harlequin romance cover bodice ripper, like, I’ll just run all the search terms through and see what comes up, and I found this picture, this clip of Johnny Carson, like, just making fun of the covers, which was, like, exactly proved my point. Like, I knew it was true, and, like, it was just, it was like, I actually, I missed my performance review? I was, I was supposed to go to my performance review, and I literally just forgot about it until I got a, like a, like a DM message from, from somebody being like, Kelly, you know you’re supposed to be at your performance – and I was, I, I, like, messaged my boss to say I’m so sorry. She, I don’t think it’s going to be a problem that you’re super obsessed with your work.

Sarah: [Laughs] Kelly is so obsessed with her work that she was watching Johnny Carson instead of going to her performance review.

Kelly: It was embarrassing, but you know, it was –

Sarah: So that’s, that’s on brand.

Kelly: [Laughs] What else, what else did I find? Oh, I think my favorite thing was – I mean, I kind of got – my favorite thing was to look at the, the trade advertisements in Publishers Weekly, because it’s so int-, I’m, you know, I’m, like I said, I’m fascinated by, like, sort of, like, the whole sort of distribution system and, like, how does this, you know, how does this get from point A to point B? How are they marketing it? How does it get to the bookstores? What does it look like in the bookstores? And I’d always, like, I’d, you know, I’d, I’d, like, I’d really try to find stuff like that, like pictures of how these would have been displayed in, like, B. Dalton in the, the ‘80s or whatever. Online and, you know, it just doesn’t, like, I just wasn’t turning anything up, and it turns out that there’s a lot of images and stuff like that in the Publishers Weekly archive, and, like, it was just so interesting to see, like, sort of what, you know, how they positioned different lines and, you know, how they would have advertised different authors to industry professionals? ‘Cause you get much more granular stuff than, you know – like, you’ll get the picture of the, the display, like the, like, I found this one of the Shanna, like, when they promoted Shanna, it was like, you know, you’ve got the Shanna cover, and then you’ve got the, all the, all these copies of Shanna inside a big cardboard Shanna cover, you know? It was just, like, it was just really fascinating to me, ‘cause then you can kind of picture it; like, what does it look like at Kroger, you know? And that’s very interesting to me.

Sarah: The way in which the, the, the novels themselves are presented is almost as, if, if not more interesting – or excuse me, the, the way that people talk about the novels themselves –

Kelly: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – is, is almost as, if not more interesting, than the, the actual picture of them. Like, the way that people talk about them is so much, there’s so much going on there.

Kelly: Uh-huh. Yeah, oh yeah.

Sarah: And it reveals so much about attitudes towards women and sexuality and gender and fuchsia and all of the things that are packed into the cover. Meanwhile, the cover has one job to do, which is to get you to pick it up.

Kelly: Uh-huh, uh-huh.

Sarah: It’s astonishing!

Kelly: Mm-hmm. It’s so, it’s so interesting. Like, like, and that’s, too, like, that’s why I was like, you know, the, there’s this, like, idea, idea that the covers are for the, the, like, the middle men, but I do think that like, like, when, like, in this interview in this illustrator’s magazine that Elaine Duillo was, like, literally saying, you know, you have to – she was talking about putting the, the clinch on the cover versus in the stepback, and she was talking about thinking about, like, the woman who is shopping. She has one child in the stroller, and she has one child running down the aisle, and she has thirty seconds to pick a book, and I think that that is important to remember that, like, that, that’s like the, the, the, like, material context in which these books were purchased, and I think that, like, that’s, you know, that’s, like, I certainly, when I am at the grocery store and my child is running away, that’s definitely when I think about getting on a big fuchsia galleon, you know? Like – [laughs] –

Sarah: Hell yeah! I am all about the fuchsia galleon, actually. One, one another thing I learned ages and ages ago when I was researching the, the first book, Beyond Heaving Bosoms, was that there was not only an awareness that these books were being sold in that context, that you had a very small window with which to communicate to the buyer, this is the genre, this is the type of book, this is the historical period, this is the kind of conflict you’re going to get. Are they grasping each other with a lot of muscles, or are they just sort of hanging out? Because if you really want tension and angst, you’ve got to go for the muscles. There’s all of these very subtle messages that are being sent in this one image that is being shopped for in a very limited amount of time, and yet, because the purchase was folded into the groceries –

Kelly: Mm-hmm?

Sarah: – and was part of the weekly shop, it was almost a hidden purchase, and I know of people now who, when they do their grocery shopping, if they are in a household where their purchases are inspected, the gift cards for a bookstore will be purchased at the grocery store so that the, it’s folded into the food purchase –

Kelly: Mm-hmm?

Sarah: – and it’s not seen, so it’s a hidden purchase on a, with a very obvious cover!

Kelly: Mm-hmm. Yeah, that’s such an interesting tension.

Sarah: It is; it really is. Now, you also wrote about Elaine, is it Duillo?

Kelly: It’s Duillo.

Sarah: Duillo?

Kelly: I’m not –

Sarah: Duillo?

Kelly: I’m not entirely sure.

Sarah: I don’t know! This is the problem with the internet.

Kelly: [Laughs]

Sarah: Doesn’t always tell me the right way to say things, and if I do look it up, sometimes it’s wrong, but either way, if I’m saying it wrong, I apologize. She is, as you noted in, in your article, quoted as the Fabio artist, whereas she had an incredibly wide-ranging career. Had you heard of her before, or was she someone that you, like, really went, did much more research on for this?

Kelly: I did a lot more research on her. I hadn’t, I wasn’t familiar with her, just ‘cause, like – and it’s sort of always been in the back, you know, it’d been in my head that, like, oh, the covers are really interesting to me, but, like, I hadn’t gone, like, done sort of, you know, a formal, like, research trawl on them, but once she, like, you know, sort of once I had her name, you know, that obviously, like, unlocks, like, once you have a name you can look for, that, suddenly you have a lot more stuff you can find.

Sarah: Absolutely.

Kelly: And I think, I don’t know, I think she’s so interesting. Like, and then you can do, my, one of my favorite research tricks is I’ll go and I’ll, I’ll put things in, in eBay? Because that turns up old magazine coverage, and so I found the old People magazine article, I found the illustration magazine, and it’s, it’s funny what’ll turn up there, whereas you could spend, you know – and, like, you could spend all day just sort of looking through, like, a general, like, looking through Google or even, like, looking through the New York Public Library’s search box, but, like, sometimes that’ll give you, like, a, you’ll just get, like, a, a weird specific item that’ll just, like, turn up, which was, which was really cool.

Sarah: Wow. I love looking on eBay for the cover flats, like the painted covers that are for sale?

Kelly: Oh, same. Ohhh, I –

Sarah: Do you have any, bought, have you bought any?

Kelly: No, but one day I, like, one day I’m going to do – like, one day I’m going to pull the trigger. I’ve let a couple get away, and I very much regret it, but I’m, like, waiting for the perfect one. [Laughs]

Sarah: I have one on my office wall. It is behind me, and it is a John DeSalvo in a hot pink gladiator toga –

Kelly: Oh my God.

Sarah: – grabbing a woman wearing a, a yellow dress, and she is at least sixty-five percent bosom? They’re, they are, they are round like the most perfect grapefruits you’ve ever seen –

Kelly: [Laughs]

Sarah: – clearly, and like, there’s a, there’s a folly and some trees and some clouds, and I love this thing so much. Like, it is my favorite thing. It was given to me by Kate Duffy when they cleaned out their offices and were moving, and she’s like, do you want this? And I was like – [gasps!] – oh my God, are you serious?

Kelly: I –

Sarah: She’s like, yeah, I have, like, five of them behind a file cabinet? I have a feeling that they’re like this weird currency where if you have too many of them it’s like, oh my God, get them out of my garage, but then when you want one, you’re like, yes! I will spend any amount of money for a hot pink gladiator Fabio!

Kelly: Oh man, I just, I, like, I, I, I just, I can’t even tell you how badly I want one to hang on my wall. I actually, the, the, one of our, one of our illustrators at work did that cover, like, the cover image for me, and she sent it to me, and I was like, I can’t even tell you how thrilled I am. I’m going to print this. I’m going to take it to Kinko’s, I’m going to get it printed off on the highest quality and I’m going to frame it, and I’m going to put it right over my desk!

Sarah: It is gorgeous!

Kelly: [Laughs] And I was like, could you just, like, maybe, like, you know, do like a couple of, like a, you know, two of the couples and just sort of like do something, and she’s like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I’ll, I’ll get back to you, and then she’s like, sends me this, and it’s like, oh my God! What have you done? It’s beautiful!

Sarah: It is glorious! I mean, it is stunning. So – [laughs] – do you have, do you have a favorite cover?

Kelly: How, I mean, how could I, how could I even begin to pick? The one that I really want to find a copy of is, I really want to find a copy of the version of The Wolf and the Dove that I read when I was, like, inappropriately young?

Sarah: Yeah.

Kelly: Because it was, like, it’s not the, like, I have one of the ‘70s covers, but it’s, it was like this specific, like, it was clearly, like, it must have been done in the late ‘80s or something and designed to look like, to be, like, more of a, like, a clinch cover of the era, and they’re, like, in a forest, and he’s, like, wearing, like, a bearskin vest, and it’s just like, like, it just, you know, it just, like, puts me in such a specific place and time, thinking about it, and I really –

Sarah: Yep.

Kelly: – want to find a copy of it, because I really need to, like, have the specific copy that I read.

Sarah: Oh yeah!

Kelly: ‘Cause it was just like, you know, you looked at it, and you were like, yeah, this is the good stuff.

[Laughter]

Sarah: And the one where – [laughs] – there’s literal tit-fucking on the cover?

Kelly: Oh my God! You know, I have a really embarrassing confession: I have had that cover for a really long time, and I put it in another article, and it wasn’t until recently that I looked at it, and it was like, holy shit, he’s fucking her tits! Like –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Kelly: – I don’t think it even, like, clicked for me, because, like, imagine, like, a cover, a book cover in, again, like, the grocery store; he’s fully fucking her tits!

Sarah: It’s so incredible, and he looks so bored!

Kelly: I know! [Laughs]

Sarah: And she’s just like, yes, I have a thorny rose in my hand, and my bosom is clearly above my dress, and he’s butt naked!

Kelly: He is fully just bare-ass naked, and I just, I –

Sarah: [Sighs]

Kelly: The best part about this is that people on Twitter kept sending me other great, other great covers from her, from the era –

Sarah: Yep.

Kelly: – and it was just like, there’s one where they clearly added a scarf, and, like –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Kelly: – who was really into painting – they all, like, have this flower crown happening, which is just very funny to me. It’s like they all, like, left Coachella to go, you know, hang out with these medieval warriors or whatever. I just, I’m so, like, I just, I feel like I, I actually really don’t know what these people. Like –

Sarah: [Laughs] Left Coachella!

Kelly: – I want to know about that cover specifically. I want to know. I want to know every letter they got about it. I want to know what, like, the, I want to know if the wholesalers actually bought it. Like, I want to know. I want to know, like, what, like, you know, what did, like –

Sarah: How did this happen?

Kelly: Who, like, did, like, you know, like, was it, like, the topic of discussion at, like, Sunday school? Like, what was the – everything about it, I’d just like, I’m dying to know, everything there is to know about that cover. [Laughs]

Sarah: I mean, Tender is the Storm is probably one of the most explicit that I can think of? There was one, there was one I remember, the couple are, like, chest deep in a waterfall, and I remember looking at it and being like, oh yeah, they’re literally doing it on the cover of this book. Like, that, yep, yep, they’re fucking! But –

[Laughter]

Sarah: Yep!

Kelly: Oh, I love when subtext becomes text.

[Laughter]

Sarah: It’s not even subtle. My personal favorite cover that I will love for all of its problematic ridiculousness is the original Silver Angel by Johanna Lindsey?

Kelly: Wait a minute, I’m Googling it right now.

Sarah: Okay, so it’s a, it’s, it’s a harem romance, so you know –

Kelly: Oh boy.

Sarah: – there’s, there’s, there’s secret twins. One of them has a harem, and the other one is an English lord! Because of course.

Kelly: Oh, oh my God!

Sarah: And she has white hair, like, a, a cloud of white hair cascading over the pillows. I believe her name is Chantal, and she’s kidnapped and sold into the harem, and she’s wearing what I can only describe as –

Kelly: Oh my God!

Sarah: – [laughs] – it is the most ridiculous costume. She’s got, like, diaphanous baggy pants –

Kelly: Oh my God. This is – oh my God, this is so much! This is so much.

Sarah: Isn’t it wonderful? It is my favorite of the ridiculous covers, because there is so much going on, not the least of which is her hair.

Kelly: I mean, that’s, honestly, what’s the most incredible to me is, like, this, the, like, ‘80s sofa covers? Like, I’m sorry; those are, like, the, the, like, the, the brocade is, like –

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Kelly: – that’s, like, from, like, from Home and Garden or whatever in 1983, for sure. Oh boy.

Sarah: [Laughs] That’s some big paisley and some throw pillows from Pier One right there, people.

Kelly: [Laughs] Oh my God. Hoo!

Sarah: Yeah, this is my fav- – and he’s got, like, gold arm bands on?

Kelly: Oh right, totally, yeah.

Sarah: Yeah, ‘cause that’s what the, the sheikhs wear, right?

Kelly: Oh my God.

Sarah: And this book is complete and utter lunacy. Like, it is completely off the wall –

Kelly: Oh boy.

Sarah: – this book.

Kelly: Oh boy.

Sarah: It’s, this, this narrowly edges out the Johanna Lindsey Defy Not the Heart where Fabio has long hair and is wearing purple tights?

Kelly: Oh, wait, wait, is that –

Sarah: But only by a bit.

Kelly: Defy – I, I’m double-checking to see if this is the one that I think it is.

Sarah: Defy Not the Heart is the one where you have Morticia Addams in a red velvet V-neck –

Kelly: Oh –

Sarah: – sitting on Fabio’s lap?

Kelly: Here’s the one that I want a flat of. Like, I just, this is good. This is – yeah, she is Morticia. You know what? I can’t believe she would do Gomez like that.

Sarah: I know, right? They’re my, they’re my power couple. You can’t sit on Fabio’s lap wearing purple tights. That’s not okay!

Kelly: [Whistles] Those are absolutely purple tights. Wow! Oh my God.

Sarah: All right, so you wrote in the article that there was one cover where the male model had gotten an erection, and she included it in the painting. Which book was this, oh my God?

Kelly: I am, I’m dying to know; if anybody has any information, please contact me. [Laughs] At me if you know where the boner is.

Sarah: Oh my gosh!

Kelly: I mean, it’s fascinating, ‘cause it’s like, it’s so, it’s such a, like, of course People magazine spotted that. Like –

Sarah: Of course!

Kelly: – it’s, like, exactly the kind of detail they went in there looking for, I promise you that. I am, I would love to know. I’m, I’m dying to know. Unfortunately, they do not specify. I would love, I would love for somebody to tell me what was up with that.

Sarah: I would just like you to know that you should not Google Image search romance novel cov-, “romance novel cover with boner.” That’s a bad idea.

Kelly: [Laughs] Oh no!

Sarah: Neither should you Image search “romance novel cover with erection.” That’s bad. Don’t do it.

Kelly: Oh yeah.

Sarah: Just trust me on this.

Kelly: You know, yeah, I’m going to just take a hard pass on that.

Sarah: Yeah, I wouldn’t recommend it. [Laughs] I can’t believe that they would put a detail in that, like that in a magazine and then not tell you which one it was!

Kelly: It’s, it’s, it’s, you know, it’s, it’s like, I can’t account for the editorial decision, personally, but –

[Laughter]

Sarah: I have questions. I have many questions.

Kelly: I mean, hopefully the fact checker verified it.

Sarah: Right? I mean, somebody knows. Somebody has to know which one has the erection. Now watch: you and I are both going to get an incredible onslaught of cover image. Like, that guy’s got a boner –

Kelly: Yeah.

Sarah: – that guy’s got a boner. We’re going to have, like, nothing but boners in the inbox!

Kelly: At me, @ me on Twitter if you know where the boner is.

[Laughter]

Sarah: This is the worst podcast ever, Sarah and Kelly Hunt for Boners.

[More laughter]

Sarah: So what did you learn in the process of writing this article that you were surprised by? Was there anything where you were like, holy shit? Or was this a lot of con-, confirming things that you had already suspected? ‘Cause you’re pretty fluent in the genre; it’s not like you were coming in like, what? No, this can’t be true!

Kelly: You know what, I think my favorite thing was, was I, like, I’m really fascinated by the studio where they all shot, and I’m really, like – ‘cause I, I don’t know how I thought they were doing these covers. Like, I don’t know what I, what I was picturing, but it’s this guy named, like, his name, like, it was, like, Robert Osonitsch Studios, and, you know, Duillo says that, like, everybody used him, and it was, like, really, you know, he was really popular, and he had all the models, he had all the props, but I think that actually was the most surprising and fascinating thing to me, just because it’s like, it makes total sense once you know it, but just, like, the image of this one studio where they’re shooting all of these, you know, the photos for all of these covers, and I think he did, like, a lot of shoots for paperback covers. Like, I did – you know, I of course, like, immediately went Google Image searching, and I found two, like, I found a couple of, you know, like, a romance-specific photo, but also it was like a shoot of, like, a Western cover or something, and it’s just, just such an interesting image to me to picture – and, and my editor, who knows a lot about art history, was like, this is literally how studio painting used to work. Like, it was, like, too, you know, expensive to, like, have all of the models and all of the props and everything, so, like, artists would literally do this exact same thing, historically speaking, which I thought was really interesting as well. So I think that was, like, my favorite, you know, my favorite thing that I became, like, totally obsessed with that I, that I was just, like, kind of surprised, you know, surprised to learn. I thought it was just really cool.

Sarah: And it’s almost like a, like a, becoming a lost art.

Kelly: Yeah. I mean, it makes me so sad. Like, you know, obviously, like, you know – [laughs] – like, you know, like, the content business is not as flush with cash as it used to be.

Sarah: The devil you say.

Kelly: [Laughs] Like, it’s like, it’s one of those things like copyeditors? Like, it’s like, you know, I, like, you know, people in the comments would be like, what, why, why do you have all the wrong commas in here? And I’m like, trust me, there’s nothing that would thrill me more than to have a copyeditor. Like, I think that it’s, like, I know why they don’t do ‘em anymore, but I just, I feel like it’s just such a lost art, and I just love them. I love the, I love the, like, the painted covers so much, and I’m just, like, really sad that, that that’s no longer feasible.

Sarah: And it’s, it, it’s funny for me as a, as a consumer; I struggle with historicals that have color photography covers, because it just strikes my brain as such an anachronism, and it’s a silly one. Like, it shouldn’t stop me that much, but I’m like, oh, that’s a photograph, and that’s very shiny fabric. That doesn’t, that doesn’t look right! And it’s not like, oh, I don’t like this historical inaccuracy! I don’t give a shit if the, as I’ve said, if the duke drives a Porsche to Almack’s; like, I don’t care. He can go through the drive-thru, I really don’t give a shit, but, like, the, the conditioning that I have grown through as a reader from a young age, seeing a color photograph with, like, lighting and shiny and flash! Like, I’m very confused. I need, I need art and brushstrokes and candlelight! That’s what’s on a cover! I need ridiculous sunset! I need the wind from five directions!

Kelly: Uh-huh.

Sarah: You can’t fake that!

[Laughter]

Kelly: You really can’t. I mean, this is, like –

Sarah: No!

Kelly: – such a bummer to me. ‘Cause I, you know, I just, I will, ‘cause I will, like, when I started reading it was, like, sort of the last great era of the painted, you know, the, like, I mean, at this point they were, like, well into the stepback era, but, but you know, all those, like, like, you know, like, the Lisa Kleypas interior covers where it was like, you know, like – I, I, stumbled upon the artist’s website who did a lot of those, and he was saying, like, there’s a couple that are, like, literally references to rococo, late rococo painters, which I get a huge kick out of.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Kelly: And it’s just like, I don’t know, I just, I, to me, they’ll just, like, ‘cause that’s when I, you know, first got into romance, that’s what’ll always say, like, this is a historical romance; like, look at all the beautiful, soft, pink satin, you know? It’s like, that’ll just, that sensation will never go away for me.

Sarah: Yep! Big gown.

[Laughter]

Sarah: So you are incredibly fluent in the genre, and you have all of this knowledge of it. What are you working on or writing or working on now re-, regarding romance?

Kelly: Hmm. I mean, at the moment I’m, like, kind of, I’m kind of like taking a breather, ‘cause I did this, and then I was like, okay, let’s let it, let’s let the field like fallow for a little bit. But I’m trying to think of what else. Like, there’s, I don’t know, I’m, I actually, really there are several leads that I would like to chase from this. Like, I would like to talk to somebody who was involved with the, the studio, and I, I would love to, like, find, you know, I would love to talk to some people, like, do actual, like, you know, like an oral history of something with the folks who, like, who actually did a lot of this. ‘Cause I didn’t do that many interviews for this; I did a lot of, like, archival research, but I’d love to talk to people and do, like, a, you know, follow-up piece, just ‘cause there’s so many, like, every time you talk to people, there’s so many, there’s always so many good details that come out. And actually, it’s funny, because I’ve, I really want to get – like, I’ve written a lot about romance novels, and I read a lot about, I’m, you know, I read them all the time, and I’ve always, like, I’ve been a fan for, you know, many, many years, but I, like, I really want to do a bunch of, like, reading and, like, possibly start writing about soap operas? Because I don’t really know anything about soap opera, but I think it’s, like, an interesting part of TV history, and I would like to be more literate about it, and I would like to understand more about sort of the tropes and the history and – ‘cause it’s like, it’s this funny sort of cousin in terms of, like, popular imagination to romance, but it’s, like –

Sarah: Yes!

Kelly: – such a different narrative style, because it’s like the, the romance is like, it’s like you close, it’s like you read it and you close the circuit, right? It’s like you read from beginning to end, it climaxes, there’s a Happily Ever After, and it’s like a, it’s like a loop, right? Whereas, like, soap operas, like, just keep, they keep going like, I mean, like, they’re decades and decades old, and I just, I, I think that it’s so interesting how, how they’re sort of, they run in these parallel tracks that don’t intersect, and I would like to understand it. Like, I would like to understand the history of that, that genre better. So that’s what I’m, like, obsessed with right now.

Sarah: It’s like they’re cousins.

Kelly: Yeah!

Sarah: But, but they are not always the same in a lot of ways, and, like, I don’t follow soaps, because they don’t end. I am all about the end.

Kelly: [Laughs] Yeah, same! And I’m just, I’m, I don’t know, I’m, like, very, I’m just very, I, I would like to understand it better and, like, you know, sort of have a better grasp on its history, ‘cause I mean, it’s like a foundational part of TV, and I just –

Sarah: Yes!

Kelly: – and I also interviewed this, this author about the blacklist and how the TV blacklist worked, and I think a lot of times people, you know, sometimes who couldn’t get work in, who were sort of blacklisted, like, you know, there’s, soap operas was one of the places where, you know, they, like the, sort of the, you know, Red hunters weren’t as concentrated on, and I learned this fascinating detail where, like, I think the, the creator of General Hospital, her father had been a socialist mayor of Milwaukee, which –

Sarah: Whoa.

Kelly: – [laughs] – so I’m just, I don’t know, I’m just, like, I’m, I’m really interested in what’s going on there, so, like, that’s sort of something I’m obsessed with right now and sort of want to do a bunch of reading about and, like, try to, try to understand. But I just, like, I’m just really drawn to that sort of body of stories that’s like sort of, that’s often dominated by women, and you know, very aggressively –

Sarah: Yes.

Kelly: – stereotyped, and I just think there’s always, like, there’s usually, there’s things that are, whenever you look at something like that, that is often a punch line, there’s almost always, there is always something more interesting going on there. You know, there’s, like, if you actually do the deep dive, it’s like, you’re going to find a million fascinating stories in that world.

Sarah: Yes. And it’s generational; like, you inherit following those stories from an, usually from a woman in, in your, in your immediate family or world.

Kelly: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Sarah: Like, you, you, you’re sneak-watching them, or you start watching them with your babysitter, your aunt, your mother, your grandmother, your sister, someone.

Kelly: Mm-hmm. That’s exactly where you get your romance novels from.

Sarah: Exactly! It is our, it is our quiet story inheritance.

Kelly: Mm-hmm. And I mean, I feel like that is why, and it’s like, that’s probably why I’m a romance reader instead of a soap opera, is my mom and my grandmother were romance readers, not soap opera watchers, so and if I’d spent more time with my great-grandmother, who was a soap, soap watcher, maybe I would have been a soap watcher instead. I don’t know, it’s an interesting, like, pattern of transmission too.

Sarah: So what are you reading that you want to tell people about?

Kelly: So, I mean, not to galley brag, but I just got the – [laughs] – and that –

Sarah: Galley brag! [Laughs]

Kelly: – and that galley copy of Lucy, Lucy Parker’s new book, which I’m tremendously –

Sarah: [Gasps] Me too!

Kelly: – excited about. I’m like, oh, you know, I, I would have, you know, if, like, she could, you know be writing stories about what was happening in the phone book and I would be delighted to read it, but I’m, like, especially excited that it, like, involves Austen, because, you know, obviously, you know, I love, love anything that involves Jane Austen.

And what else? There was something else I was going to mention. Let me look at my Kindle here. You know what I read recently that I enjoyed was, like, I used to read a bunch of fantasy as a teenager, and I sort of, I don’t read it as much now, I read much more romance, but I read Naomi Novik’s Uprooted, and it was, like, very much relevant to the interests of a romance, of a romance reader?

Sarah: Ohhh, yes, it was!

Kelly: [Laughs] I really enjoyed that. I just read, I finally read Meredith Duran’s last book, The Sins of Lord Lockwood, and what else did I read? Oh, and the Jenny Holiday books with all the misbehaving bridesmaids I really enjoyed.

Sarah: Ooh!

Kelly: What else? I’ve also, I’ve also just downloaded the book about Theranos and Elizabeth Holmes, and I’m very excited to read that, but that’s probably, there’s, I, from what I understand, there’s no romance in the nonfiction book about the Silicon Valley startup that wasn’t.

[Laughter]

Kelly: I also went back, and somebody was talking about, I was reading a Twitter thread about, like, the wildest, like, the wildest scenes from romances you have read, and, and –

Sarah: Yes!

Kelly: – somebody mentioned Patience and Passion by Lisa Valdez on there, and so –

Sarah: Oh dude!

Kelly: [Laughs]

Sarah: Oh dude.

Kelly: Half of us were like, wha-? Like, you know, they didn’t look like, you know, they were – I don’t think of things from, like, before sort of Kindle Unlimited as being as wild as they were, but it, they absolutely were! [Laughs] Like, it was, like, so, they were, they were really over the top, all of them.

Sarah: Ohhh yes. Yes, they, yes, yes, yes! Oh yeah.

Kelly: It’s like, what is, is, like, is this even anatomically possible?

Sarah: Yeah, those were so over the top.

Kelly: [Laughs]

Sarah: We don’t get a lot of books like that anymore.

Kelly: Yeah! That was, like, I think that part of the reason that they fascinate me is ‘cause they reminded me of, like, yeah, their bodice is busting, you know? That’s, that’s what type of book it was, and I think that every now and then I just love to read, like, a real old-fashioned just, like, like, you can’t even, like, believe what, you know, like – [laughs] – you can’t even believe what you’re reading. Like, that’s just, I feel like the pleasure of that type of book is just, you’re just like, oh my God! You know? Really, like, brings you back to your teenage years, and you’re like, yes, but can they do that?!

[Laughter]

Kelly: I’m not sure you can, but – [laughs]. And, you know, some fuchsia! Some fuchsia on the cover.

Sarah: Oh yeah, right, nothing – there’s a very specific type of romance that I associate with fuchsia, but I think you have to be talking to someone who’s read a lot of romance to fully communicate what fuchsia romance is? It’s a very specific thing, but the over-the-top-ness is, like, a requirement.

Kelly: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love it; I love fuchsia; I love the fuchsia books. That’s like what I love about the wild covers and the, you know, the bodice busters and the fuchsia; it’s just like, it just so totally does not give a shit that I just, I find it just, like, invigorating – [laughs] – you know?

Sarah: Yep!

Kelly: It’s just, I just love it! [Laughs]

[music]

Sarah: And that brings us to the end of this week’s episode. I want to thank Kelly for hanging out with me, and as she said, @ her on Twitter if you know where the boner is! Which out of context is, like, the most fun thing to say. [Laughs] You can find Kelly on Twitter @kellyfaircloth, and all of her writing at Jezebel is at kinja.com/kellyfaircloth, and I will of course have links to both places.

If you would like to email me, if you have thoughts, questions, suggestions, you want me to tell you to do things in a different way, I can do that – I’m not very bossy most of the time, but I can’t try to be – you can email me at [email protected], or you can leave us a message or tell me a terrible joke at 1-201-371-3272. I love hearing from you, you always have interesting things to say, and so always feel free to email me.

And if you would like to see us record a podcast live and you are attending Book Lovers Con, here are the details that you need: Thursday, May 16, 3:30 p.m. local time in Imperial 5C! Amanda, Elyse, and I will be doing a live podcast recording. We love it when you hang out and join us and make it more silly, and we’re going really try to make sure there’s wine for everybody. There is a link to RSVP, just so we know how many chairs we’ll need, but it’s free for people who are attending Book Lovers Con, so if you’re making the trip down to New Orleans I hope you will join us, because we would love to see you.

This week’s episode transcript is brought to you by the Patreon community. If you have supported the show with a pledge of any amount, it is deeply appreciated. I have new goals for the Patreon community, because I’d like to level up the show! Have a look at patreon.com/SmartBitches. Monthly pledges start at one dollar. Every pledge makes a deeply appreciated difference, and we have some new patron goals. For example, at three hundred and fifty patrons, we will start doing quarterly Ask Us Anything conversations, and if Elyse has had some Kraken rum and Coke, that could be a really fun conversation! We’ll try to make that happen. We could just ask her about The Bachelor – [laughs] – and just let her go, but either way, it would be wonderful if you were to join the Patreon community, so have a look at patreon.com/SmartBitches. Thank you so much for your support. It keeps the show going, and I can’t tell you how much it means to me.

The music you are listening to is provided by Sassy Outwater. This is Caravan Palace from their two-album set, Panic and Caravan Palace. This track is called “Lazy Place.” I hope that you have one and that that is where you do your reading. You can find this album on Amazon or iTunes or wherever you buy your funky music, and you can find out more about Caravan Palace, who make excellent music to work to, at caravanpalace.com.

Coming up on Smart Bitches this week: by request, we are going to be doing Whatcha Reading twice a month! We love hearing what you’re reading, and we had requests to do that post more frequently so we could keep up with one another, so here you go! Tomorrow we’re going to be talking about books! And then we’re going to buy more books, ‘cause that’s how we roll. We also have a guest review this weekend of Netflix’s Sex Education, so if you’ve been thinking maybe you want to watch it, have a look at this review and make your decision with lots more information. On Monday, Robyn Bachar is sponsoring the Caption That Cover Contest, and, well, you, you have to see her cover. It is so terrific because of who the heroine pictured looks like, really, really looks like. We also have some new reviews for books that we’ve enjoyed and a Rec League that I know will contain some catnip for many of you! Plus Books on Sale and Help a Bitch Out, so I hope you will come and hang out with us at smartbitchestrashybooks.com this week!

However, did you know, you could also go to trashybooks.com and smartbitches.com, and it all ends up at the same place? I know; URLs are amazing.

I will have links to the books that we talked about, some of the original cover art, the Q & A, and the original article that inspired me to contact Kelly and say, please talk to me about this! This was so cool! She’s amazing; I am so excited that I get to read her writing whenever she publishes it.

And now it’s time for the bad joke. Are you ready for the bad joke? This is so bad; I love it so much!

What do you call a werewolf YouTuber?

You should see my face; I am trying so hard not to laugh.

What do you call a werewolf YouTuber?

A Lycan subscribe!

[Laughs] Lycan subscribe! That’s so dumb; I love it so much! Okay. [Clears throat] Yes, that is what you call a werewolf YouTuber: a Lycan subscribe. That is from Reddit user itsmoeyo, and I am so deeply grateful for that joke, because every time I think of it, I start laughing like a goofball. [Laughs again] Lycan subscribe! Okay, I’m going to go back to being professional now. There’s actual tears on my face, and I have to wipe my face. Oh my gosh. Lycan subscribe! It’s so dumb, and I love it so much. Okay.

On behalf of Kelly Faircloth and everyone here, including my dog, who is really mad that the garbage men came and took the trash away, we wish you the very best of reading. Have a wonderful weekend, and we will see you back here next week.

[enfolding music]