[intro]

Sarah Wendell: You may notice that this episode has arrived a bit early. Smart Bitches, Trashy Books is participating in the national shutdown on January 30th. We will do no work, no school, and no spending, and we will withdraw our labor in protest of the actions of ICE in our communities. There are links at smartbitchestrashybooks.com to find out more.

[music]

Sarah: Hello and welcome to episode number 703 of Smart Podcast, Trashy Books. I’m Sarah Wendell, and my guest this week is Kayleigh Donaldson. Kayleigh has been the guest on some of my most popular episode, and I know that that is because she is brilliant and very fun to listen to. We recorded this just before the Oscar nominations were announced, so Kayleigh is making some largely accurate predictions about the Oscar nominations and talking about what makes this year’s group of films so interesting. We are also going to talk about vintage Hollywood gossip, character actors, and how actors shape public narrative. I love talking to people who think about their favorite parts of popular culture the way I think about romantic fiction, and I already know you love when Kayleigh is a guest, so do not worry, she will be back.

Two things, three things: Number one, at about two minutes in, we talk about Elizabeth Taylor’s abusive first husband, and we also talk about beauty and body standards in Hollywood.

Thing the Second, a brief technical note: we had some connectivity issues and delay during recording, so I don’t have a video episode for this one, but I do have clips, so watch for them on social media. You might hear some occasionally muddy audio, and I apologize. I did all of the things that I could.

And Thing the Third: Patreon folks, you have an extended episode inside of your Patreon feed with a whole extra hour of conversation. We talk about the Beckhams, the industry of celebrity children, and a lot more, so look for that inside Patreon. And if you’d like to join, you know what? I’m totally about to tell you how to do that.

First, I have a compliment. This compliment is for AdoraBelle42:

Scientists from fourteen different nations have collaborated and officially determined that you are more adorable than a baby otter in a onesie riding a Roomba that’s gathering confetti while “Yakety Sax” plays in the background. This is official scientific finding that I am reporting here.

If you would like to join our Patreon and have a compliment of your very own and support the show, have a look at patreon.com/SmartBitches. As you probably have heard if you are a regular listener, our Patreon community is the reason why there are no dynamic ads before or after the show. I turned them all off because of community support, so the ones that you hear immediately before or after an episode, we do not have those because we want to avoid ads for ICE and other right-wing propaganda. So thank you to our Patreon community.

And if you would like to join, there are some excellent benefits: we have a truly Discord, you get extended episodes like this one, and you help ensure that we have a handcrafted transcript from garlicknitter. Hey, garlicknitter! [Hey, friends! – gk] Your support means a lot. Have a look at patreon.com/SmartBitches, where coincidentally there is a collection of bonus content free for your sampling. Thank you, as always, to our Patreon community, because you are the reason that we are still here.

So let’s get started: on with my conversation with Kayleigh Donaldson.

[music]

Kayleigh Donaldson: My name is Kayleigh Donaldson, I’m a pop culture writer and critic, I am a features writer on Pajiba.com and a bunch of other places, and I run the Substack newsletter, the Gossip Reading Club.

Sarah: I love the Gossip Reading Club, by the way, especially when you do a, a deep dive into, like, vintage gossip? Because Jesus, the, the, nothing changes! Nothing changes! It’s so depressing! And also fascinating.

Kayleigh: Yeah, that’s kind of what got me into it was, like, when I started writing about pop culture and I was always sort of very fascinated by, like – growing up in Britain, and you live in, like, tabloid culture – I was a teenager when the tabloids and the magazines still ruled everything, but on the dawn of MySpace and Perez Hilton and what would later become Twitter, now is X – I refuse to call it X – like, I sort grew up in that era when, like, every, every women’s magazine was Here’s how to lose seven pounds in a week; here is this, you know, let’s make fun of this woman for looking old and ugly; let’s, you know, be really weirdly obsessive over the wives and girlfriends of footballers? Like, I grew up in the WAG era, which was huge in Britain, like when Victoria Beckham was leading the wives through Madrid, and they were all perma-tanned and wore ponchos and, you know, all of those things. So I, when I started writing my newsletter and writing about this stuff professionally, it, it just made it clearer how much of this is the snake eating its own tail.

And the further back you go, the more you see that. I recently, I’d written it ages ago, but I, I put it back on the newsletter, was coverage of Elizabeth Taylor’s first wedding, which was when she’s eighteen years old and she marries one of the Hiltons, and this guy was a piece of shit. This guy beat the crap out of her. He was horrible. But that wedding was organized by her studio, MGM. They made her wedding dress, they made her wedding night lingerie for her, and then on the side of her, like the bride’s side of the ceremony was all the people that had played her parents in movies. Like, this was a big marketing opportunity because the film that also came out around that time was the Father of the Bride, which she was in.

And it’s amazing how we hear all these conversations about, you know, Oh, this couple must be fake; they’re doing it for publicity. Look at them getting sponcon for all these things. There’s still very serious conversations to have about all these things, which I think…bad, but this is kind of the ecosystem that everything is for sale and that hasn’t – I think it’s gotten worse actually. At least, you know, at least, at least Liz Taylor got a nice dress out of it.

Sarah: Liz Taylor is one of my favorite celebrities because I have so much respect for somebody who looks at a problem and says, Hang on a second. I’m Elizabeth Taylor? I got fuckloads of money, and I’m going to strong arm people who are turning their backs on the AIDS crisis to fight for the people who I know who are dying of AIDS. Like, she did not give a fuck, and when a woman reaches that point when she’s – like, she’s Elizabeth Taylor, and she’s got money, and she’s like, Well, who is going to stop me? And I’m like, Okay, you had a crazy life, but I have so much respect for that. Like, that being the final thing you do? Fuck yeah.

Kayleigh: I have such a great love for that era of, like, wildly unrelatable, proper diva stars who had the money and just did weird things with it. ‘Cause it’s not just that she –

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Kayleigh: – you know, basically was, like, the greatest straight ally for queer people? Like, I think the late, great Rob Reiner is actually another great example of this. It’s not just that she did that; she invented the entire concept of, like, the celebrity perfume. She made way more money selling White Diamonds than she ever did being an actress. She was massively involved in all these things and she didn’t have to be. ‘Cause remember, in the 1980s, you know, Rock Hudson was dying and his former BFF Ronald Reagan basically ignored it while he was in the White House, like ignored pleas for help from that man. You know, certain people are in hell if I believe, if I believed in it, and those are those people.

So with Liz Taylor, I mean, and she was so obsessed over from the age of like eight or nine, and was heavily sexualized from about the age of fourteen. They start trying to sell her as an adult star when she is still an adolescent. You look at the coverage of that, and her own mother being like, She’s got boobs; she should push them out and show them off in the movie, right? And again, she’s a child, and she starts getting paired up with, like, men in their late twenties, early thirties in films. So when she gets this reputation for, like, getting married and divorced all the time, it’s like, well, yeah, she probably had no idea what a, a normal relationship was like! Her first husband beat the hell out of her, her second one was probably gay, her third one dies in a plane crash, the fourth one is, is Carrie Fisher’s dad, and then she meets –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Kayleigh: – Richard Burton, and that doesn’t get any better. Like, it’s weird that, like, the Republican congressman is actually – senator – was actually one of the nicer husbands. [Laughs]

Sarah: Which is wild, very wild. Did you ever encounter the rumors that Debbie Reynolds was bi or pansexual and had a relationship with Elizabeth too? Have you ever run into these rumors?

Kayleigh: I’ve, I’ve heard that one. I’ve heard a lot of, like, this person was probably gay or bi. There’s the great stories of the, the Sewing Circle, which was like the, the, which may or may not have been where all of the queer women hung out. Women like, you know – some of it has been confirmed, like Marlene Dietrich was definitely not straight. There was rumors that Joan Crawford was queer. This, I think you hear a lot of these conversations now because when we see the conspiracies people spin about This actor is actually gay and we, you know, they have to hide it, and all that stuff, it’s like, well, but what they’re talking about are people like Rock Hudson. And it was very true that these people –

Sarah: Yeah.

Kayleigh: – were, you know, forced to conceal it ‘cause it was, it was still illegal in the ‘50s. You know, when –

Sarah: Oh yeah!

Kayleigh: – when Rock Hudson had to marry his boss’s secretary, it’s because it was illegal. He couldn’t be out. You know –

Sarah: Yeah.

Kayleigh: – it would have killed his career. He could have gone to jail. He could have been, you know, probably murdered in the streets. So I, I have issues with when people, like, hijack history in that way to try and spin their own conspiracies. This comes up so often with, like, just any number of actors who’s accused of, like, the internet’s boyfriend who gets accused of being in a fake relationship. Like, look at the way that certain people talk about Timothée Chalamet and it’s like, What does he see in Kylie Jenner? It’s like, she’s hot; she’s rich; she’s his age. He likes hot women? Like, I, I, what do you think she’s into her for? It’s not that, it’s not that deep. I don’t think he’s that deep.

Sarah: No. I don’t, I don’t think that he is, and I think that this is a completely normal relationship for two people at that age with that level of celebrity? Like, I am sure that they understand each other on a, on the whole, like, you know, fame is kind of traumatic element? I’m sure they relate very heavily to how traumatic their fame can be. Even though they seek it out, it is very hard.

Kayleigh: That’s, that’s one of the things that’s been so interesting with this Oscar season. Timothée Chalamet is currently the front runner. We’re recording this the day before the Oscar nominations come out. He is prob-, he will, he will get nominated. I think he’s going to win. I don’t think Leonardo DiCaprio is going to catch up. I’d love Wagner Moura to win; it’s not going to happen.

But he has spent this whole award season being like, Thank you to my partner of three years, who I love very much. She’s right over there. Everyone go say hi to Kylie. And you still have these people being like, Oh, Kris Jenner must have him in a weird contract. Oh, she’s only doing this for the fame and stuff. She doesn’t need his fame! I think she’s actually more famous than he is. She doesn’t need the legitimacy of him. She, her family has well and truly gained that, for better or worse.

So it is so fascinating to me how easily people want to believe certain theories like this? The idea that two hot people who are famous –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Kayleigh: – would not want to pose on the red carpet together and dress – their, their matching outfits, their matching orange outfits at the Marty Supreme premiere, I loved so much. Like, bring back classic matchy dressing power couple. It’s Justin and Britney in denim. Let’s go back for that. I am all in favor of that. [Laughs]

Sarah: Lean into the weird, please. Please lean into the weird. And also, they have cracked a code that I think a lot of people don’t fully recognize? In that a couple is always more interesting than a singular person, especially if the singular person you’re talking about is a dude. If it’s a dude, that’s not interesting. If it’s a dude paired with somebody, now we’re interested. Like Channing Tatum is much more interesting when he’s dating someone else, especially if he’s dating someone really interesting like is it Zoë Kravitz? Yeah –

Kayleigh: Yeah –

Sarah: – Zoë Kravitz.

Kayleigh: – who’s now dating Harry Styles, and I think he’s more interesting for dating Zoe Kravitz!

Sarah: Who’s now dating Harry Styles. She’s just making these guys more interesting than they could ever be on their own, and I stand by that opinion. [Laughs]

Kayleigh: And it’s so interesting as well, the idea that a lot of Timmy’s fans, and I will call him Timmy, seem to believe that he is this, like, grand intellectual artiste who is so above and beyond all these things. I think it’s because he’s French, and I think they’ve confused him for, like, characters he’s played? But he’s never pretended to be otherwise. Like, you watch him in interviews, he is a jock who listens to rap music and, you know, plays video games. He just also happens to like art house films and is very serious about his job. Like, I, I have a soft spot for actors who are very open about their ambition, who, ones are like, ‘cause he’s been spending this whole award season being like, I want to be one of the greats. I am very much working hard –

Sarah: Yeah!

Kayleigh: – to get that Oscar. And I, I love that rather than the, you know, Oh, it’s just an honor to be nominated. Please, please, you know, give me it.

Sarah: (FLAG I know you’re making an agreeing noise, but I’m not sure how to transcribe this one. It sounds like you hum Ah-ha-ha? It’s cute, and I feel like it should be included. 12:19)

Kayleigh: And you know, part of that –

Sarah: Yeah.

Kayleigh: – is I actually think that he’s very good at being famous, which is not easy –

Sarah: Yes.

Kayleigh: – and a lot of people aren’t good at it, and I think also Kylie is probably very good at it ‘cause she’s had to be; she’s had to do it since she was like ten. So you have two people who know –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Kayleigh: – how to navigate these sort of treacherous waters doing it together and, I think, doing it very well. And also, if it was fake, why would they have kept it hidden for so long? They’ve been together for three years; they’ve actually not been…

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Kayleigh: – like, that often. They weren’t doing, like, paparazzi walks or anything. They kept it really down low! We haven’t seen him, like, out with her children or anything like that, which I think if Kris was meddling in it, they probably would. So, you know, I think that that’s, you know – I, I, I think that the Kardashian-Jenners are like a net negative for mankind, but I do have a soft spot for them as a couple, just because there is something to be said for, like, hot young people going off and being hot and young and famous together. [Laughs] If the fantasy of celebrity is to kind of enjoy this, like, money delusion, they’re very good at it!

Sarah: Yes.

Kayleigh: I, I have a, I actually, like, a few years ago I wrote a piece where I was like, I actually have a lot of pathos for her because she had no choice but to be famous. She grew up in a family where everyone is obsessed over their looks and their thinness and their, like, appropriation of Black womanhood bodies, and, you know, the fact that her mother let her get lip fillers at fifteen is, is kind of malpractice.

Sarah: Hmm.

Kayleigh: She gets essentially given to Tyga as her first boyfriend. She’s fifteen, and he is a grown man with a child, and everyone in her family –

Sarah: Ugh!

Kayleigh: – is cool with this. She gets pregnant very young. She has had her looks dissected and really cruelly treated, but she has also perpetuated a lot of nasty, negative body standards and made a lot of money out of it. I think, you know, it’s, you know, she’s a, a, a woman of contrasts, quite like Khloé Kardashian, actually. So I kind of, there is a part of me that just, like, if you just want to go and have, like, a nice, peaceful life where you, you know, you and your, you know, auteur darling partner – [laughs] – go play poker together and hang out on boats and just seem nice and quiet together, like, that sounds really nice to me, actually. You know, I would take that over, you know, many other things.

Sarah: I, I will always think of Timothée Chalamet with the meme – I’m sure you saw it – that he looks like a, a medieval shoe?

Kayleigh: Yeah, I was thinking it’s like that.

Sarah: Oh no! I just made you choke on a soda; I’m so sorry.

Kayleigh: It was also like that sort of, you know, how, like, last year the ro-, the hot rodent boy was a thing where it was like, like Josh O’Connor and Mike Faist and guys who have that sort of, like, yes, slightly scrawny white guys with very character-actor-adjacent faces who are, you know, cute, but in a way where they would probably be described as interesting first? And I say that as a fan of a lot these guys. Like, Josh O’Connor is awesome. He is so good in the new Knives Out movie. He is so wonderful in The Mastermind, which is this really great indie, like, heist film.

But it’s so interesting; the way people talk about Timmy is like the gr-, this grand representation of his generation in Hollywood? And he is an, I, I think he is a very good actor. I didn’t like him as Bob Dylan, but I just thought that movie was very boring. I think he’s great in Marty Supreme, but you know – there is a reason that he is becoming bigger in his generation than a lot of, like, other actors. One is ‘cause he’s very good at playing the game. One, he’s young and white, but also, you know, it’s, it’s a weird industry in that it’s not like Hollywood is against young white guys, but it’s interesting he’s the frontrunner for the Oscar, ‘cause they don’t usually give the Oscar for Best Actor to men under the age of about forty-five. Women have to get it before they’re thirty, because we are, we’re thrown out to pasture by thirty-five. You know, we’re playing grandmothers after that. Men have to age into it to be distinguished and show they’ve put the work in. So if he does win it, I think he will be the youngest since Adrian Brody for The Pianist, which he was about twenty-nine when he won that. So yeah, that’s how long it’s been.

Sarah: Wooow!

So as we are recording this, Oscar nominations are out tomorrow, and I know you think and write about this A Lot. What are the things that are really top of your mind right now in terms of the nominations?

Kayleigh: It’s such a fascinating year because Best Picture has been locked for months. If One Battle After Another does not win Best Picture, it will be the biggest shock since maybe Crash winning Best Picture. I think that it is so – it, it is Paul Thomas Anderson’s time. He has never won an Oscar. He is hugely acclaimed and beloved in the industry, and he finally made a movie that made money? And I think –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Kayleigh: – One Battle After Another is great. But he’s an indie filmmaker! All of his films tend to not make money, right? And they tend to be, by the standards of indie filmmaking, quite expensive to make. One Battle After Another cost like a hundred and fifty million to make, which is bananas numbers for a film like that, but because Leonardo DiCaprio’s attached, did really well. So I think some, a lot of the Oscars is very much, when is it someone’s time? Because we’ve ignored them for so long. When do we finally get the opportunity to kind of clear the field?

But it’s also been a very strong year. This is a year without a villain? People keep trying to make Hamnet the villain, and I disagree with that ‘cause I think Hamnet is a wonderful film. But, you know, this, there are previous years where there’s a film that everyone kind of wants to die. Like last year, Emilia Pérez, we were so, like, terrified –

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Kayleigh: – of that winning Best Picture. I remember when Green Book –

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Kayleigh: – won Best Picture. Crash winning Best Picture was my first ever Oscars I cared about, and it’s haunted me ever since. You know, there is no, like –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Kayleigh: – grand evil, Oscar-bait-y film in that conversation. I think that’s why a lot of people are trying to make it –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Kayleigh: – into Hamnet. Hamnet is a film which, it, it’s Chloé Zhao’s film based on the book about Agnes and William Shakespeare navigating, like, their marriage and his creativity and the death of their son, which inspires the play of Hamlet. I saw it at the Toronto Film Festival at a press screening, and the sobbing in the final ten minutes was almost deafening. We were losing our minds. My, I was sitting next to Sarah Mars of LaineyGossip, and we were just, like, nudging each other and sobbing just like mess. It was so messy –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Kayleigh: – at the end of it, genuinely. So I, I think that film is wonderful. I think it’s, because it’s sentimental, people are, like, against it in a way? But I don’t think –

Sarah: Yeah.

Kayleigh: – it’s going to win Best Picture, and I don’t think it’s going to steal anything from Paul Thomas Anderson. And I don’t think it’s going to take anything from Sinners, either, which is the other big player. And it’s really interesting because Sinners and One Battle After Another are both Warner Brothers films, and Warner Brothers is –

Sarah: Mmm.

Kayleigh: – a nightmare machine run by a cultural vandal who’s trying to sell it off to Netflix. And yet leading the conversation are two of the most creatively fascinating, critically commercially successful films of the year, and they just obviously don’t care about that. So I think they’re putting their weight behind One Battle because it’s more probably likely to win, and also it’s the white guy’s film.

But, you know, Sinners is such a triumph that Ryan Coogler should be – you know, he, he, he gets the rights back to that film I think in twenty years, which never happens for a filmmaker. So he is, like, already changing the game so many ways. And I think that Sinners will probably stand up well for that. I think it has a good chance at winning Original Screenplay? I don’t think that –

Sarah: Hmm.

Kayleigh: – it’s got a chance in, in other sort of major ones, unfortunately.

But again, I, there, there’s a, it’s such an interesting year because, other than picture and director, I think a lot of races are up in the air. And that, at this stage –

Sarah: Oh!

Kayleigh: – in the game? Usually there’s so many things that are locked, you know? And that’s…

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Kayleigh: – this year, which is, I, I find it more interesting ‘cause I find, ‘cause sometimes you, you see the same four people getting every award every, every ceremony. And it’s just, even if you like them, it’s like, You don’t really have anything else to say anymore. You’ve kind of thanked everyone. But this year, you know –

Sarah: We’re done, right? We’re done.

Kayleigh: – it’s – I mean, Best Actress, you could fill that category about three times and have a great category. I –

Sarah: Easily!

Kayleigh: You know, I’m personally rooting for either Jessie Buckley or Renate Reinsve, but again, there’s so much to pick from in a lot of these places. Will the voters be adventurous enough to delve into that, or are they just going to kind of stick to what they know? It’s, the Academy is tough to predict in that way because they are boring and very middle brow, but they have been venturing out of their comfort zone in the past couple years because their votership has diversified so much. So –

Sarah: Yes! Yes.

Kayleigh: – you, you get Parasite winning Best Picture, you get No Other Land, the documentary about Palestine, winning Best Documentary, which no one saw coming. You know, this is a year, this year we, there are three Palestinian films up for, on the long list for Best International Feature. You know, there are, like, sort of winds of change in certain areas, like, you know, Scorpions, “Wind of Change.”

But I try not to think too optimistically about the Oscars. If, if I get to the end of a ceremony and my response is, That could have been so much worse, that, I am satisfied. [Laughs] ‘Cause I have watched, I remember watching –

Sarah: That’s a win.

Kayleigh: – the Green Book year. I was in a hotel ‘cause I was in Glasgow at the time, and I just remember furiously typing just at like four in the morning, like, Can’t believe you did this to me! [Laughs]

Sarah: Incredible year, that was. Oof. And with this year’s movies, there are, there are so many very, very different films. Like some years, there’s a, a similar flavor in some years, and the films this year are all very, very distinct, which I think makes it a lot more interesting. What do you think?

Kayleigh: It, that is one of the things that makes it so fascinating, because you have One Battle After Another, which is a strange political dramedy about, like, left-wing resistance against evil racists, but it’s also a stoner comedy. You have Sinners, which is a historical musical drama with vampires? You have Hamnet which is sort of –

Sarah: Vampires.

Kayleigh: – you know, a very sort of nature-driven historical, like, fanfiction, basically. You have Marty Supreme, which is an anxiety-fuelled riff on biopic, but it’s not really a biopic. You have –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Kayleigh: – Bugonia with Emma Stone and Jesse Plemons is a nihilistic sci-fi drama about why the world is on fire. Guillermo del Toro has Frankenstein. There’s The Secret Agent, my favourite film of last year, the Brazilian spy thriller about life in Brazil under the dictatorship of the ‘70s, which is sort of slow-burning drama, but also an examination of national identity, but also it has capybaras in it. You know, it’s, it’s got lots going for it. I am really, really rooting for Train Dreams, which is a film that’s on Netflix. It’s a Terrence Malick-esque, very moving drama basically about a man’s life from cradle to grave as he is working as, like, a logger in the Pacific Northwest. It’s Joel Edgerton –

Sarah: Wow!

Kayleigh: – and he’s so wonderful in it, and I, I don’t think enough people have seen it. It’s on Netflix, I think, because Frankenstein is their priority. It’s kind of got shoved to the side, but it’s so beautifully done.

You know, this is a year where we have a number of films not in English that could qualify. There is The Secret Agent. There’s Sentimental Value, the Norwegian film with Stellan Skarsgård, which is wonderful. There is It Was Just an Accident from the legendary Iranian filmmaker, Jafar Panahi.

This doesn’t happen very often. Usually you get one foreign film, and that’s the one everyone gravitates around. And this year, you know, yeah. Wait, wait, but there’s the rest of the world! We’ve given them one nod, right? And then we don’t have to care about them. Unless they’re English, and then that’s ‘cause they’re wearing a cravat. And this year, that’s not the case, and that’s really exciting!

Sarah: It’s like when we invite Canada to our World Series of baseball. [Laughs] There’s no other world. It’s just Canada and us –

Kayleigh: Oh –

Sarah: – but it’s the World Series.

Kayleigh: Bless the Blue Jays. I was, I was in Toronto for TEF last year, and obviously it was building up to, they were building up to getting into the, to the, the final rounds of the World Series.

Sarah: I was rooting for them. I was rooting for them!

Kayleigh: I, I was rooting for them too. I also have to give a shout-out to the, the guy selling bootleg merch outside of Blue Jays stadium that was selling T-shirts that said I heart BJs.

Sarah: I, I, I would be sad if, if you didn’t buy one. Did you buy one?

Kayleigh: I sadly didn’t! I really regret it, though, because they, they, I saw someone else I saw online wearing another bootleg T-shirt that, it was when they played the Yankees –

Sarah: Yeah.

Kayleigh: – and it said nine, One BJ is Better Than Nine Yanks.

Sarah: Ohhh!

Kayleigh: Beautiful! Filthy! I love it!

Sarah: That’s disgusting, and I adore it.

So this is a bit of an unfair question for a movie critic, but if – for me, for example, my kids are now grown, but for a while, the only category I was aware of was, was Best Animated Feature, because those would be all the movies that I had seen? Like, I saw all of those, like, on purpose!

Kayleigh: Oh yeah.

Sarah: So now I’m, like, back into adult movies. If someone was thinking, okay, which of the likely Oscar nominee films in any category, which do you think people, if they’re only going to see one or two, which should they see?

Kayleigh: So I have to root for Secret Agent, ‘cause it was my favourite film of last year. I do think that Sinners, in terms of a film that’s just a blast –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Kayleigh: – to watch and is just, from a craft point of view, incredible. Michael B Jordan playing two roles and stunning. The support cast of that thing is incredible; I’m hoping to see some of them get some nominations. Delroy Lindo has never been nominated for an Oscar, and I’m still mad about it? And I really want him to get one for this year.

If you’re looking for something that is maybe a little more outré, a little more out there, I would probably suggest Bugonia. I wasn’t a massive fan of it, but it does have, I think, the best ending of any film of 2025. And I – here’s the thing: there’s, there were two films last year about how the count-, the world is falling apart amid brain rot and conspiracy, and Emma Stone is going to tell you about both of them. And the other one was Eddington –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Kayleigh: – and I liked Eddington far better, but Eddington was wildly divisive, and a lot of people hated it, and it’s not getting any recognition. But in terms of a film that so fully captured the feeling of COVID Broke My Brain, I think Eddington was, was kind of unbeatable. And I get why people didn’t want to watch it, ‘cause, like, who wants to relive the very recent history of that time and what it came to symbolize?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Kayleigh: But watching a film about, like, paranoia and conspiracy theories and fake activism while Katy Perry’s “Firework” plays made me laugh hysterically. And I think I was the only one laughing hysterically, to be honest. I was the only one that laughed at Beau Is Afraid. I was the only one in my cinema that was, like, cackling like I was watching Young Frankenstein or something. So I think I just like, I like Ari Aster’s, you know, paranoid, conspiracy, anxiety-riddled brain.

So that’s a harder one to recommend, but I do think that Bugonia taps into some similar stuff, and I think that Jesse Plemons is so phenomenal in it? I’m very excited for people to – and we want to talk about great power couples? Jessie Plemons and Kirsten Dunst are, like, iconic.

Sarah: I love them. I, I think they are so interesting, and I think that the way that they, they appear together, the way that they are together on, like, red carpets and promotional events reminds me a lot of Leighton Meester and Adam Brody. That’s Adam Brody, right? I get my Brody’s mixed up.

Kayleigh: Yes.

Sarah: That is Adam Brody.

Kayleigh: Adrian is dating Harvey Weinstein’s ex-wife.

Sarah: Thank you! Yikes. So I, just, they’re, they’re constantly like, Oh, you go take a picture by yourself. No, you should come over now! Like, they are very engaged with each other, and they clearly support each other as colleagues and then as partners? I just, the vibe is just so lovely. And I also love Kirsten Dunst’s attitude of, I’m going to do what I want.

Kayleigh: She is one of those people that gives great interviews and gives good quotes. I remember she was once asked, Have you missed anything yet to watch in time for the Oscars? And she said, I’ve seen everything because I’m a member of the Academy. It’s like, I love you. You know, and she, she give, she’s someone who’s been in this business, and I think she’s, her first film, she’s about five or six.

Sarah: Yes.

Kayleigh: So she sees everything, she knows how it all works, and she now has, like, the financial, like, safety net to be like, I’m just going to go make weird indies, and I’m going to work more with Sofia Coppola and Jane Campion, and I’m going to do Fargo, and I’m going to – she gave an interview as well where someone said, you know, Will you ever work with Jesse Plemons again? And she says, Yeah, I want, we want to make a film every three or four years together. Why would I stop working with him just because we live together? Which I think is very sweet.

Sarah: Yes!

Kayleigh: They should work together! They’re really good together! So I have a soft – I mean, also she’s Claudia in Interview with the Vampire, so I’m, I’m forever going to just have her on my, like, mood board of inspiration anyway?

Sarah: Yep.

Kayleigh: But I’m such a, I, I really love – like, she, I feel like she is one of the great women of, like, millennial heroine angst.

Sarah: Yes!

Kayleigh: Like, when I think of great millennial women, it’s, like, her; it’s Julia Stiles in 10 Things I Hate About You; it’s Daria, who’s a bit more Gen X, but you know.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Kayleigh: I, I do love her. But Best Actor is so crowded this year that I think there’s like three people who are guaranteed a spot. It’s Leo, it’s Timmy, and it’s Michael B. Jordan.

Sarah: Yes.

Kayleigh: And then there’s these two spots that are kind of up for grabs. I think Wagner Moura might get in for The Secret Agent as the token We Know That People Speak Other Languages, and he’s been in enough English-language things that people kind of know him? He’s in, if you’ve never seen any of his Brazilian films, he is Pablo Escobar in Narcos with Pedro Pascal.

Sarah: Umm.

Kayleigh: But then you have, like, I think Ethan Hawke is a favourite? He plays Lorenz Hart, who was the composer who worked with Oscar Hammerstein, in a film called Blue Moon, which he’s very good in. It’s largely kind of a monologue? I will say the most fascinating thing is it’s Ethan Hawke, who is six foot two, playing a man who was four foot ten?

Sarah: [Laughs]

Kayleigh: And the way they make him look shorter is, like, actually very convincing. But, you know, Ethan Hawke is like an absolute, like, legend who hasn’t been nominated since Training Day, I think.

Sarah: Yeah.

Kayleigh: So I think there’s lots of love for him.

But there’s also – it’s not going to happen, and I know it’s not going to happen. Who I want to get nominated is Harry Melling from Pillion. And they’re never going to do it, even though he’s brilliant in that film, and the film doesn’t work without him. They are not promoting that film; I think that film is too outré for them; I think it is too kinky for them. It comes out in America properly next month for people who haven’t seen it yet. But he’s so wonderful in it, and I feel like one day he will get Oscar nominated, but –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Kayleigh: – they’re not going to do it…this film, unfortunately. If they’re not going to nominate Alexander Skarsgård and his amazing collection of leather halter tops, they’re not going to nominate Harry Melling.

Sarah: Alexander Skarsgård is one of the most interesting actors working today? Like, even the way –

Kayleigh: I love him, I love him.

Sarah: I love him too. I love the way he approaches a red carpet? I love how he is going to make fashion statements in really interesting ways, and he’s going to continue – like, he knows that as a man, fashion is still a message, it’s still a communication, and he has this wonderful deep, but not offensive, I don’t give a fuck energy? Like, he doesn’t, it’s not like he doesn’t give a fuck like he’s rude. He’s just like, I don’t care what you think because I’m, this is me, and I know me, and I’m going to wear these cool fucking pants, so don’t stop me. Like, I love that he recognizes fashion as a language, acting as a language. He is so good. I mean, even in Murderbot, like, he acts with his, with just like the little furrow between his brows is doing a lot of acting right there. He’s so good!

Kayleigh: He is so good in Murderbot. I, I am, my, one of my favourite things in pop culture is the conventionally hot guy who decides to become a weird little freak goblin man.

Sarah: Yes!

Kayleigh: You know, why would you want to be Chris Pratt when you could be Willem Dafoe?

Sarah: Yes!

Kayleigh: And it’s, it’s Alexander Skarsgård; it’s, it’s Sebastian Stan; it is, Josh O’Connor has a certain quality about him with that. You know, I, it’s – sometimes –

Sarah: Ooh!

Kayleigh: – the Chrises do this; like, Chris Pine has a good freak streak, But, you know, Alexander Skarsgård is also the son of Stellan Skarsgård, and Stellan has been playing naked weirdos for decades. He’s got catching up to do to his dad, and I think he knows that –

Sarah: What? [Laughs]

Kayleigh: – and he respects it, and I love it. And Bill is already, he’s up the wayside being like, I’m sorry, do you need a murderous clown? I’m right here.

Sarah: I got that Marvel money, so I’ll do your, all your murder clowns. That’s really no problem. Also, you know who has weird gremlin energy? Daniel Radcliffe.

Kayleigh: Yes! Robert Pattinson!

Sarah: Yes!

Kayleigh: Like, I mean, if we’re talking about actually, like, the actors who were in the Harry Potter franchise, going back to Harry Melling, who I don’t think has, like – people are being very mean about Harry Melling online saying he’s not attractive, and I hate these people. He’s very cute. But also, he’s got character actor face, and he gets to do weird, cool movies ‘cause of that. Like, why wouldn’t you embrace that? How much more fun is Robert Pattinson when he’s doing a weird voice? Like in Mickey 17, he is doing the voice of Ren –

Sarah: Oh!

Kayleigh: – from The Ren & Stimpy Show, and it’s the funniest thing ever.

Sarah: [Laughs] So now you have people like Harry Potter actors and the Twilight actors, who all of, most of whom went weird gremlin real fast, which I guess if you have big money, that’s what you wanna do as a creative, right?

Kayleigh: Yeah, I mean, this is like, I – I mean, I love Daniel Radcliffe anyway. I, we love a short king, and I love the reign of the short king has come back. You know, it’s him; it’s Kieran Culkin, another great gremlin; it’s Kendrick Lamar. You know, we have these great men in our corner. You know, Daniel Radcliffe has basically honed his talent as a stage actor and won a Tony last year for Merrily We Roll Along. He’s now going to do the new Tina Fey comedy, which is so perfect ‘cause he’s such a great comic actor. Like, have that freedom, go enjoy yourself, go off and be kind of strange.

Like, now that Sebastian Stan is kind of I think about eighty percent done with his Marvel contract, how long he’s been in that thing, he’s going off to Romania to make, I think he’s making a Frankenstein movie with Radu Jude, who’s one of the strangest directors in Romania, but he’s never made a film in Romania, despite being from Romania! So now he has the chance to do that.

Sarah: Being Romanian.

Kayleigh: He got an Oscar nomination for playing Donald Trump, where I pretend, I like to pretend he got nominated for A Different Man, which is a better film, but you know, that’s goblin shit energy, and he’s, he’s, he’s using it! And you know, we, I think the actors have, have the freedom to do that because they’re not expected to really open a film anymore. We’re kind of past the days, a handful of people aside who can sell a movie based on their name. Like, Tom Cruise –

Sarah: Yes.

Kayleigh: – can still do it, but he is now stopping big action movies. The Rock could do it for a while, but it kind of waned. Jack Black can do it if the film is aimed at people under the age of nine. He is basically –

Sarah: Yes.

Kayleigh: – the A-lister for, like, my nephew, which is kind of wonderful. But, you know, if you’re Florence Pugh, you know, you can go do the Marvel film; it will get you the money. You have your contract with, I believe she has a fashion contract with Valentino. You get your money from that.

Sarah: Yes.

Kayleigh: And then you go off and make Midsommar and Lady Macbeth and all of these films that may not get seen by a massive amount of people, but build up your clout. Speaking actually of, like, people who –

Sarah: Yep.

Kayleigh:  – I would like to get nominated this year but won’t, Amanda Seyfried gave a really interesting interview recently in The New Yorker. She’s in a film called The Testament of Ann Lee, which is a historical musical about the woman that founded the Shakers movement? It’s actually a fascinating, very beautiful film, and she’s phenomenal in it. But she was asked, Do you really care about getting an Oscar nomination or a win? And she said, The nomination matters more than the win, because that’s what gives you the power. But to, you, to maintain your career, you have to be the one that makes the strategic choices. You have to be the one that says, You know what? I think this film could make money and will be good for me; I’m going to do it. And maybe it will and maybe it won’t –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Kayleigh: – but you have to think about this. And she talked about how, you know, doing Mamma Mia! gave her the money to go off and do other things.  Having done – she just had The Housemaid, which just crossed over, I think, a hundred million dollars in America. That will give her clout to go off and do another weird thing she wants to do. You know, if she wants –

Sarah: Yes.

Kayleigh: – to go do theatre or she wants to go do TV, she has to make choices that are smart about that. And she’s really open about that in a way that most actors aren’t, and I loved her for saying that, because that kind of candor, you still, you’re supposed to be like, Oh, you know, it’s just luck. Like, no! You’re working really hard for this, and that’s, you know –

Before Sydney Sweeney was revealed to be, like, the MAGA jeans queen, the thing I liked about her was that she was very open about, Yeah, I’m making these choices ‘cause I want to build up an A-list career and have the opportunity to do other stuff. Like, I, I want to hear you talk about that! I don’t want to you talk about anything else, but I want to hear you talk about that!

Sarah: Yes. And you wrote about that, didn’t you? You wrote about how in The Housemaid that Sydney Sweeney’s team is trying to make it seem like this movie was a success because of Sydney Sweeney. And I’m like, Amanda Seyfried is right, is right there. She is right there? She’s right there. [Laughs]

Kayleigh: But this is, the thing is the idea that she is responsible for the success of a film based on one of the biggest selling books of the 2020s is, the, the straws are being grasped at, basically. I mean, she did seem to be the one who took the material to Paul Feig and, you know, has had her name on it as a producer, which is a savvy move, but, like, and people are, like, her team are trying to talk about her like she’s been playing four dimensional chess for years and, like, she saw that this would be a hit before anyone else. No! Again, this book was, has sold millions of copies. It is, has been on the bestseller list for I think over two years already. It is one of the biggest signs of the, the success of BookTok. The idea that – it’s like people are like, Oh, I can’t believe this movie based on a Colleen Hoover book is doing well. What do mean you don’t know? Like, I’m sorry; like, I understand –

Sarah: Of course it did!

Kayleigh: – why you don’t want to be on TikTok, ‘cause TikTok is scary, but, like, if you would spend five seconds there, you’d know that this was always going to happen. So, like, Sweeney is –

Sarah: Yep.

Kayleigh: – really interesting to me. I wrote a piece as well on my newsletter about how I think that she is in that position where she is famous, but she’s not popular? ‘Cause, like, who is Sydney –

Sarah: Yes, that was a really good analysis. Yes.

Kayleigh: Like – thank you! – ‘cause that’s the thing is, like, she is obviously well known and is working hard to be famous. Who is her fan base? Because if it is all of these Republicans who are trying to hold her up as like the queen of boobs, they’re not going to see her movies.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Kayleigh: They didn’t go to see Christy, the film about the gay boxer with a violent husband. That’s not what they go to. They don’t care about art. They don’t care about movies unless it’s to make a point. But, you know, the, the people that could have been at the base of her, like, support base, I, I don’t know who they are. I mean, I assume she has stans; everyone has stans. There is probably some Brazilian Twitter account somewhere rooting for her, because that’s just the laws of nature. But, you know –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Kayleigh: – the idea, like, to, to put – and she was putting in the work to try and do that Amanda Seyfried thing of building a long-term career. I don’t know if she has the charm to pull it off. Amanda Seyfried is super charismatic and charming in interviews. And, I think, more talented. I don’t think Sydney Sweeney’s a bad actress. I think she’s bad in many things, but she’s not a bad actress. But, you know, Seyfried –

Sarah: No.

Kayleigh: – has consistently been that woman who is the best thing in a lot of rubbish things for years. And that’s what people remember.

Sarah: Is it, was it you that said that she can take really mediocre dialogue and make it sing?

Kayleigh: She has that very classic, like, 1930s, 1940s actress thing where it’s like, if you were just being put in four films a year that were all bad, everyone would know that you were the most wonderful thing in them anyway. You’re the Irene Dunne; you’re, like, a bit of Barbara Stanwyck.

Sarah: Yes.

Kayleigh: Very, she, if, if they still made screwball movies, you know, if we still got films like The Thin Man, she would be the new Myrna Loy. Like, one hundred percent, I think…

Sarah: Oh yeah!

Kayleigh: But where Sweeney is, I mean, I don’t think she’s ever going to go away? I think that maybe her kind of pizzazz moment has passed and they will move on to someone else.

But, like, compare her to Zendaya. People are obsessed with Zendaya. Zendaya is charismatic. She knows how to work a red carpet. She knows how to harness fame while also keeping her privacy. Like, we know very little about her and Tom Holland, which is kind of awesome, given that they are both hugely famous. She is someone who makes…

Sarah: Speaking of short kings –

Kayleigh: Yes!

Sarah: – and goblin mode, yes.

Kayleigh: And how much do we love, like, a cool short king who also does not care that partner is taller than him? No, he’s not Tom Cruise about this. He’s like, she can be –

Sarah: Yes.

Kayleigh: – seven foot tall for all I care, and I still love her. I love that.

So I will be curious to see where Sweeney goes next, but, like, you compare it even just to, like, the women in Euphoria! You know, Hunter Schafer, I think, is a fascinating actress.

Sarah: Oh my God.

Kayleigh: Or, you know, the, the men! Like, I have finally come round to Jacob Elordi. He’s not just tall; he’s actually the best thing in Frankenstein. But, you know, for a long time I was just like –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Kayleigh: – I think he’s just tall. But no, he’s, he’s the best thing in Frankenstein, and I’m very – do I think Wuthering Heights is going to be good? No. Will I see it opening weekend? Yes. [Laughs]

Sarah: Do you have marijuana in Scotland? I think an edible might be needed to go see that.

Kayleigh: It’s not technically legal here, but Dundee smells of weed all the time, so –

Sarah: [Laughs] So just take a little edible, go see the movie. I’m sure it will be just a mind-blowing experience.

Kayleigh: I mean, I think that film is also a really interesting example of, like –

Sarah: Yes!

Kayleigh: – you know, a film that has stars headlining it and is, like, an act-, a director who’s now building up enough of a name and an aesthetic for herself, whether you like her or not, that she can sell that.

Sarah: Mm-hmm!

Kayleigh: But, you know, Margot Robbie is also someone who’s been incredibly strategic. She has her own production company. She made Barbie happen.

Sarah: Yep.

Kayleigh: She got, you know, Greta Gerwig to make it. You know, she has been so clever about these things, and I don’t know if Sweeney’s quite got that level of strategizing in her yet. It would be interesting if she did, because I think more women in that age group taking control of their careers, I think, is a good thing –

Sarah: Yes.

Kayleigh: – you know? But her current move is like being the girlfriend of Scooter Braun and, like, that’s just a bad move. You want to talk about anti-power couples?

Sarah: Ugh!

Kayleigh: The krypton-, the anti-Kirsten and Jesse. [Laughs]

Sarah: They’re like a black hole of charisma there. Both, like, putting them together is just bad.

Kayleigh: Did you see their paparazzi pictures in Central Park –

Sarah: Ah, ah.

Kayleigh: – when they’re, like, sitting on the big rock?

Sarah: So gross!

Kayleigh: It was, it was very, it was very Spencer and Heidi Pratt. It, that was a bad nostalgic throwback. Did not like that.

Sarah: Not Speidi! Oh yes, it’s very Speidi. Oh my gosh. Wow. The thing about Syd-, Sydney Sweeney that makes me doubt that she has a strategic sense is the way that she – if, if fashion and the, and the fashion choices that you are making are also a narrative about their, about your career, which they are – I mean, look at how Zendaya uses fashion. Even when she’s, like, dressing on a theme for a tennis movie, like, she has an understanding of fashion as a narrative, just like Alexander Skarsgård. If the narrative of your fashion when you are promoting a project is, Hey, look, I have boobs, this is not a good strategy. And I, I mean, you know what? If, if you’ve got great knockers, show them off. I have, I mean, I have no problem with any of how you want to display your body. My point is, if the entire narrative of your fashion choices is Have you seen my boobs? Because I have some, is not a good long-term strategy. That’s, that’s a very short-term amount of attention, because eventually, it’s like, All right, what’s next? Your whole ass? Like, are we going to see the back of your knees? I mean, what is it?

Kayleigh: I, I, and that has been really key, ‘cause, like, she did this really horrendous, like, the timing was bad as well ‘cause she was on, I think it was the Sports Illustrated cover, and it was her and Christy Martin, who she plays in the film.

Sarah: Oh God, yes.

Kayleigh: And she’s wearing the box-, like the old school, like, Muhammad Ali-style boxing shorts and the shoes and the vest, but she’s wearing a push-up bra under the vest.

Sarah: Hmm! Yep.

Kayleigh: And I was very entertained by men who were like, Well, that’s just what her boobs are like. Honey, you clearly have never seen boobs, and I’m really sad you had to admit that out loud –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Kayleigh: – but – it, it does seem like a weird thing of why is, is, do you think that this is it? ‘Cause it does start to feel like you are pandering very specifically to a kind of, like, male demographic that is not going to last in the long term.

Sarah: Nooo.

Kayleigh: And, you know, I, I think a lot of her fashion choices haven’t been very good. They’ve started to look very old-fashioned. They haven’t really fit with, like – she’s not old; she is in her twenties. She should wear something fun and feisty and maybe a little –

Sarah: Hell yeah!

Kayleigh: – you know, a, a little couture. Like, she doesn’t do it! And it’s, it’s very strange to me. And she was on, I think she was on Jimmy Fallon’s show, and she had this hair, and it looked like, it looked like the Mar-a-Lago wig. You know, that, you know, the, the hair that, like – [laughs] – every woman in the Trump administration has, that very sharp bob, you know. And it was like, whoever did that to you should be sacked. I mean, ‘cause it did start to feel like you are leaning into the Republican thing, and I don’t think she was, at least not consciously. I don’t think that’s what her team were going for. But it was this thing of, you know, you’re not helping your case here. And it’s really strange, because, again, she has fabulous boobs. She is very beautiful, stunningly beautiful woman and has had some beautiful fashion moments. It really feels like she has sort of missed the train on this moment. So as a strategist in that way, I think she is being kind of failed!

Sarah: Yes. I just googled these pictures ‘cause I hadn’t seen them? And this is like every blonde woman in the MAGA universe. This is their haircut.

Kayleigh: Yes.

Sarah: This is, the, it, there’s Mar-a-Lago face and there’s MAGA hair, and she’s got one of them. And, I mean, she’s wearing a red dress that comes all the way up to her collarbones. It has big old, big old shoulder pads – I had those shoulder pads when I was in high school! – and it’s very form-fitting. It’s kind of got this shiny appearance, like maybe it’s leather, maybe it’s satin. And it’s a great dress, but the entire ensemble of hair and – yeah, oh, girl – this is leaning into a visual narrative that – and it’s, it’s the very specific shade of red. Like, ooh, yeah.

Have you read Tressie McMillan Cottom’s essay in the New York Times about blondness and the social cachet of being blonde? That is all I can think about looking at this. This is very much an example of what Dr. Cottom was talking about, hundred percent.

Kayleigh: Yeah, that’s a, that’s a great piece. I, I mean, it just also makes me think a lot about, like, Mar-a-Lago face and, like, the particular aesthetics of femininity that have become a really big thing. Like, I don’t think Sweeney strategized, I am a Republican, Republicanism is in, I am going to start dressing like this, because frankly, if she was going to do that properly, she would look three times her age.

Sarah: Yes.

Kayleigh: Like, she would have the most…lip job –

Sarah: She would have no buccal fat.

Kayleigh: Yeah. I mean, Karoline Leavitt’s lip fillers are like, that, that’s like something out of The Substance, man. That, that was actually really tragic. But, you know, it is so interesting that this is like the, the attempt to be the dominant kind of binary of gender and presentation of gender in the industry right now, because you see a lot of women who don’t align themselves specifically or, like, directly with Trump doing it. Like Kim Kardashian has gone back to being a white woman. She has had her BBL taken out; she’s gotten very skinny.

Sarah: Yes!

Kayleigh: She’s not quite as tanned as she’s been. She’s not doing the heavy contouring, but the face doesn’t move. I had to watch All’s Fair for work. I reviewed it for TheWrap, and it was genuinely, like, beguiling to watch an actor who can’t move their face. ‘Cause there’s a number of cases where I’ve seen that recently, including actors who I used to really like, but watching her in that situation, it was almost experimental. It was like, if you had told me, if you were doing this in, like, you know, an experimental indie maker’s – [laughs] – piece of work, I’d almost think it was a deliberate choice. I think it’s just that she can’t move her face.

But that’s now kind of the increasing norm. You know, I was watching some red carpet footage of a film coming out recently, and I won’t name the person, ‘cause that’s not fair. I’ll send you the picture, though. But this person got a facelift, and it is the single saddest facelift I have ever seen in my life, and all I could think was, Why did you let them take your money? Why have you done this? I understand the pressure you must be under to maintain a certain look, to maintain a kind of youthfulness –

Sarah: Mm-hmm. Oh yeah.

Kayleigh: – but this has become so detrimental. Aren’t you afraid that this is just going to hurt your career? So I want to apologize for the jump scare as I send this to your email. But you know, this is now the norm, and it keeps happening. There are like three or four actors who I love, and I can’t watch them in things anymore ‘cause they don’t move their faces.

Sarah: Yep.

Kayleigh: But I feel like you can’t, you can’t, you try to talk about it, but you don’t want to be mean about it or contribute to the culture of, like, shaming these people. ‘Cause I don’t know the circumstances you’re under; I wouldn’t be able to deal with it. But there was a point where people kept saying – yep, yeah. For people who are listening, Sarah’s reaction to the email being opened? [Laughs]

Sarah: All right, I will, I will say the name because I need to tell you something. So we are talking about Bradley –

Kayleigh: Okay.

Sarah: – Cooper? Bradley, Bradley Cooper, right? That’s his name?

Kayleigh: Brad-, it’s Bradley Cooper, yeah.

Sarah: He looks like Barry Manilow.

Kayleigh: Yes, yes! This, I have been screaming this for months!

Sarah: I really thought when I first saw this that he was wearing, like, you know how Ariana Grande has been low-key auditioning to play Audrey Hepburn for like three years now? And it’s all, like –

Kayleigh: Yes. [Laughs]

Sarah: – I really thought that there was some Barry Manilow biopic in the work and he was really trying to like, Hey, look, I can, I can look like him; I look like him now. I was in Spain – I love department stores; we don’t really have them anymore in the States, and I love department stores? So we went into El Corte Inglés, and there was a picture of him and two other celebrities advertising a cologne. I don’t even remember which one, but it was his, his recently updated face. And I’m looking at it, and I’m like, to my husband, Do you know who that is? And he’s like, No. I’m like, Yes, you, you know this person. No, I don’t. I’m like, I promise you, you know who that is. And he’s like, No, I don’t. So one of the sales ladies comes ask, comes up and asks me in Spanish, Oh, can I help you find something? Are you look-, are you shopping for your husband? And I said, I’m so sorry, ma’am. We are just looking at Bradley Cooper’s face. And my husband can understand me when I speak Spanish. He went, That’s Bradley Cooper?! [Laughs] And this woman and I, and then another sales associate had a total gossip about this in the middle of the perfume aisle of El Corte Inglés talking about, like, What happened? We, that photo went up, and we were all like, What did he do? What happened? Who is that? Everyone is stopping to look at this photo because it looks so different.

And it’s like, from the top, I just want to be clear: you can have plastic surgery as much as you want. I’ve had cosmetic surgery. This is my house; I can do whatever I want to it to feel comfortable in it. And so much of plastic surgery is actually gender-affirming care, so have at it.

I do think it is fair to look at when a predominant look becomes so prevalent, like with Mar-a-Lago face and with specific elements of male, male actors who all have jaws like handsome Squidward. Like the lower half of their face is a, is a square shoebox because they have jaw implants at the corners and in the front. Why? Why do we all have this one look? Why do all these women conform to this one appearance? That, I think, is very interesting and worth talking to, talking about because it is a cultural influence that is leading people into altering their appearances permanently and painfully to make this happen.

Did Bradley Cooper get a bad lift? Was this on purpose, or is there actually a Barry Manilow biopic?

Kayleigh: I have to wonder if this is, like – ‘cause the biopic, like, I would love him to be in that, a Barry Manilow movie. I would like to hear him sing “Copacabana,” which is a masterpiece. I would welcome that!

Sarah: Yes!

Kayleigh: You know, I, I, I would highly welcome that.

Sarah: We can produce it. Let’s produce it, you and me! Producer credit!

[Laughter]

Kayleigh: Yes. But, like, facelifts are back now! Like, after Kris Jenner got the most magical dermaplane and facelift that has ever existed that cost, I believe, a hundred thousand dollars, and, you know, if, if you’ve ever been on TikTok and you’ve seen women that go to Guadalajara and just come back looking like a different person, like, this is now the norm. You see women getting facelifts in their twenties now, according to The Guardian. And facelifts with men has always been like, I think fillers are tougher for men –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Kayleigh: – because you’re still supposed to have a kind of rugged distinguished-ness about you, ‘cause you’re allowed to have that as a man?

Sarah: Yeah, mm-hmm.

Kayleigh: You’re allowed to look somewhat like your age, but you can’t get too kind of haggard-looking, unfortunately, because, like, again, gender-affirming care requires a certain kind of masculinity from men.

But you know, facelifts are very major and very easy to do bad. There’s a reason Kris Jenner’s one is so expensive and you have to, like, get the secret code to talk to the guy.

Sarah: Yeah.

Kayleigh: Because, you know, that’s, that’s, that’s a long procedure; that’s a dangerous procedure. Facelifts –

Sarah: Yes.

Kayleigh: – are extremely dangerous.

Sarah: Yes.

Kayleigh: So I, I do feel for someone like, like Cooper because he’s a very good actor, a very ambitious man who wants to be taken incredibly seriously. He’s dating a younger woman, which may have something to do with it. He’s still with Gigi, you know, so I, I, I imagine there’s someone who’s probably been whispering in his ear, You know what, maybe it’s time to just, you know, tighten a few things up; look, look refreshed.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Kayleigh: You know, that’s what they say about, about men: Look refreshed.

Sarah: Refreshed.

Kayleigh: But still look like a believable kind of character actor who could be in, like, I think there was a talk he was going to do the sequel to Heat –

Sarah: Mmm.

Kayleigh: – maybe. So, you know, someone that’s, Michael Mann could still reliably hire.

Sarah: Yes.

Kayleigh: But it has gotten to this interesting point where we’re talking about it with men almost as much as we’re talking about it with women. This is the closest to feminism we’ve had in Hollywood in a long time.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Kayleigh: But it’s still really tragic!

Sarah: The closest to feminism: we’re talking about the men’s surgery too! [Laughs more]

Kayleigh: But it’s, it’s, the, the standards for male beauty are as stifling –

Sarah: Yes.

Kayleigh: – in many ways as they are for women. Men get to be a little older.

Sarah: Yes.

Kayleigh: You’re more likely to see, like, a cool fat guy in film like a Jack Black. They still have to look buff. These standards for muscles required of men, regardless of whether or not the role requires it, is very dangerous. Dwayne Johnson is now in his serious actor era, and he has slimmed down noticeably. Dave Bautista did the same thing recently after years where they were just like the biggest men you’ve ever seen. It looked so muscled it looked like it was uncomfortable to be them –

Sarah: Yes!

Kayleigh: – and that was held up as a masculine ideal for men! Not for women! It’s often said this is for women; it’s not.

Sarah: No.

Kayleigh: This is one hundred percent for other men. And now we’re in the era of, like, the manosphere where –

Sarah: Oh –

Kayleigh: – it’s, this stuff is being packaged so specifically for teenage boys –

Sarah: Oh my God.

Kayleigh: – and that’s terrifying!

Sarah: Yes.

Kayleigh: So I, I don’t know how we navigate that. It’s, and I feel for someone like Bradley Cooper, because, again –

Sarah: This is your money.

Kayleigh: – you’d think that having the money means you’d be able to – yeah, that’s his moneymaker, and you’d think having the money to get the good work would guarantee you – it’s actually kind of shocking how much having money doesn’t insulate you from bad work.

Sarah: No.

Kayleigh: You know – and we tend to notice the bad work more than the good work. It’s the creep effect where you think you need more work, and no one’s going to tell you you don’t, but from the outside, actually, you don’t. You know, I think, like Lauren Sánchez Bezos, her lips are a very good example of that?

Sarah: Mm.

Kayleigh: I think no one told her no, and she now has like Mar-a-Lago face?

Sarah: Oh yes. Laura Loomer!

Kayleigh: Every woman in the Trump administration has the similar thing, to be honest.

Sarah: Yes, it’s – and that is, I think Tressie McMillan Cottom have talked, has talked about that too. That particular community of plastic surgery, especially in women in the Trump administration, that is a demonstration of compliance and conformity and wealth. That is a performance of Look at what I am willing to do to be part of this. I am willing to do this painful, visible, permanent thing. It is a, it is a gesture of compliance, and it’s also a gesture of status if you are the male partner who paid for that surgery? Look at what you can afford to do and, like, keep, keep your partner looking this particular way that is – it’s not quite hypertrophied femininity, but it is hyper, hyper femme. It’s like exaggeration of feminine features, which fits with their –

Kayleigh: It’s drag!

Sarah: Yes, it’s a, you’re (FLAG _____ 55:22) a what? Yes, that is exactly the right word. That’s what I was trying to get to.

Kayleigh: I mean, Erica Kirk walking out on the stage, sparkly trousers with her high visibility, you know, highlighter on cheeks while the sparklers fly out like she’s at the WWE, is a very hyper, hyper kind of femininity –

Sarah: Yes.

Kayleigh: – that is so close to RuPaul’s Drag Race that the fact that she has no sense over that is almost impressive.

Sarah: Like, how?

Kayleigh: But you know, this is, it is that thing of, like, compliance, and, and in compliance to a man who is, like, the worst example of masculinity, both philosophically and physically, you know.

Sarah: Yep!

Kayleigh: And, and a lot of, you know, politically things will spill over into Hollywood, and they, they shape the standards, and every influencer –

Sarah: Yes.

Kayleigh: – kind of follows suit because these are, these become trends, and everyone has to follow the trend, ‘cause there’s money in the trend.

Sarah: Yes, very true. Very, very, true.

Now, I wanted to ask you about Kate Hudson, because you were, you, when we were emailing, you mentioned a truly incredible sentence. Like, I, I, I typed this sentence back because I was so delighted that every word was more strange than the word that came before. Please speak to me about Kate Hudson. What is going on here?

Kayleigh: Kate Hudson is the star of a film called Song Sung Blue, and it is the true story of a Minneapolis-based Neil Diamond husband and wife tribute act from, I believe, the ‘70s and ‘80s called Thunder and Lightning – or Lightning and Thunder; I can’t remember the order; I’m sorry. They are played by Kate Hudson and Hugh Jackman, and Kate Hudson is now working overtime to land her second-ever Oscar nomination. She was nominated for Almost Famous. I think she’s twenty or twenty-one when she gets nominated for that. It’s her big breakout role, everyone thought she was going to win it, and she didn’t. She lost to Marcia Gay Harden, which was a great win, actually. Marcia Gay Harden’s wonderful in Pollock. But since then, Kate Hudson became the rom-com queen. She is the athletics, Fabletics saleswoman. She is someone with a lot of side hustle. She was on Glee. She’s in Running Point, which, she’s actually very good in Running Point. But now I think, like a lot of actresses who have not always gotten the work they deserve, who have not always gotten great chances to shine, she has gotten her moment and is hustling hard to try and land that Best Actress nomination. And I think that, I’m going to call it: I think she’s getting nominated. I kind of wish it would, I would prefer it to go to Amanda Seyfried or Renate Reinsve or Chase Infiniti from One Battle After Another. It’s a stacked year –

Sarah: Yeah.

Kayleigh: – for Best Actress. But in terms of a very middle-brow Oscar bait-y movie and a very Oscar bait-y performance?

Sarah: Yes.

Kayleigh: With Neil Diamond songs! It’s the weirdest thing that we’ve got the movie about the Neil Diamond tribute act before we have a movie about Neil Diamond?

Sarah: [Laughs] I know!

Kayleigh: He’s a big deal! Like –

Sarah: Oh yes.

Kayleigh: – I’m sort of fascinated by this! [Laughs]

Sarah: I am delighted. I am delighted by the idea that a movie about a Neil Diamond tribute band could be an Oscar vehicle for Kate Hudson. Every word of that sentence is more strange than the last one, and I just, this, you know what, this is the kind of boost I need in my day.

[outro]

Sarah: And that brings us to the end of this week’s episode. I will have links to the articles and photos that we talk about and anything else that we mention that I can reference online; it will be in the show notes at smartbitchestrashybooks.com/podcast under episode 703.

As always, I end with a truly dreadful joke, and this is truly dreadful. This joke is from bowen7477.

Did you hear about the guy who coughed up a pawn, a bishop, and a rook?

Yeah, coughed up a pawn, a bishop, and a rook.

He has a chess infection.

I can hear you groaning.

You should really feel bad for this person, because it’s going to be a rough knight.

[Laughs] Chess infection! I can just hear everybody going, Ahhh, Sarah! You’re welcome!

On behalf of everyone here, we wish you the very best of reading. Have a wonderful weekend, and we’ll see you back here next week. And in the words of my favorite retired podcast Friendshipping, thank you for listening; you’re welcome for talking.

[end of music]