684. Thief of Night with Holly Black

Sarah Wendell: A listener contacted me to let me know that an ad for ICE, also known as Immigration and Customs Enforcement, had run before the start of my show and that they were very upset about it. Understandable! I am also very upset about this. These ads, if you’re not familiar, they’re called dynamic insertions. They’re added to the file at the moment that you download it, which is why, if you’re traveling, sometimes you might have ads for local attractions, or you, if you’re overseas, you might get ads in a different language. Dynamic ads are different from the host-read ads that are in the intro that is my voice reading the ad. Those I do control, and I’m pretty particular about which ones I approve, because I am reading them myself. Dynamic ads do not have my voice in them. I don’t control the dynamic ads, but I have asked multiple times for certain categories to be blocked. More on that in a second.

The short answer as to why is this happening, why you might be seeing ads for ICE everywhere online? Right-wing grift is abhorrently well funded. Being complacent and letting ads like these run means more money for the creator – that’s me – and the platform that serves them. Ad spend for these spots will top twenty billion dollars this year and comes with higher percentages, offering greater revenue for creators than a non-political ad campaign. In other words, they’re profitable, and any company running them wants to run them. Now, I have asked Acast, who controls the dynamic ads and is my podcast host, repeatedly to block all political ads for years, and maybe this time it will stick.

But I would like to turn them all off. I don’t want to risk running ads for anything like that. It’s not okay with me, and it’s horrible for you. So here is the honest truth: if you have been thinking of joining the Patreon, now would be a great time. I make about two hundred dollars a month from Acast from the dynamic ads, and if I can gather enough Patreon memberships I can turn them all off at the source. I can cut off ICE and any other objectionable ads that would run pre or post the show. At the five-dollar tier, that’s forty new members. At the ten-dollar tier, that’s twenty people. (Look at my math skills.) That money goes towards paying for distribution, paying for transcripts from garlicknitter, and keeping me going week after week, as I’ve said. In other words, it’s like buying me one nice cocktail a month.

I would love to have you join our community. If you are not a member of the Patreon, everyone is wonderful, and I learn so much from them during discussions. Plus, you will get benefits, which I’ve outlined before, like full Romantic Times issues, a wonderful Discord, and the chance to be in the end-of-year holiday wishes episodes, which I will be recording very soon. If you would like to join, patreon.com/SmartBitches.

I will be updating in subsequent episodes to let you guys know how we’re doing with this goal, but my goal is to cut off these ads altogether, and I am very grateful for your consideration in helping me do that. Most of all, thank you to that listener for letting me know what was happening, and thank you for your understanding and support.

[music]

Sarah: Hi there! Welcome to episode 684 of Smart Podcast, Trashy Books. I’m Sarah Wendell, and my guest today is Holly Black. The second book in Holly’s Night duology, Thief of Night, is out soon, and I am so excited to talk to her about it. We start off right away by talking about creepy places like what kind of magic comes out of New Jersey? And then we start talking about worldbuilding, starting with atmosphere instead of plot, and the intricacies of shadow magic in her duology. Plus we squee about books that we’ve loved, magic powers that we wish we had, and also Kelly Clarkson. Truly, though, if you are writing, specifically if you’re writing romance or fantasy, this episode contains many, many excellent pieces of advice and perspective. As the young people say, it is a banger.

I have two timestamps for CONTENT and TRIGGER WARNINGS, and I will give them right before the show starts, once I know exactly the minute and second that they are.

Hello, Patreon community. I have a compliment.

To a new member, Eileen M.: A team of reality show producers are trying to cast someone exactly like you, someone who is kind and thoughtful and fascinating and fabulous, with excellent taste in carbs, but there is no one like you: you are one of a kind.

While I usually have a short piece of information about Patreon and the benefits, I have a bit of a different message today.

Support for this episode comes from The Spite Date by Pippa Grant, a hilarious rom-com featuring a Golden Retriever celebrity who needs to get out of his own way; a woman trying to live her best life, even if she’s not exactly sure how to do that; and a series of plans gone very, very wrong. Here is the cover copy:

>> I might be the only person not obsessed with Simon Luckwood, Hollywood’s hottest leading man and the newest part-time resident of my little hometown. I don’t trust the way he’s always smiling. No one smiles that much. And I am clearly missing something, because I do not get why the character Simon played on his weird hit TV show is so popular. But revenge is a dish best served cold, just like the dishes on the menu at the restaurant my ex stole from me. So, when Simon feels guilty enough about his twin teenage boys accidentally getting me arrested that he wants to take me out on an apology date? I see a perfect opportunity to get my cold revenge. One night, one date, one very loud public scene at my ex’s grand opening, and then I can wash my hands of men forever. That’s exactly how it has to go. Because my life cannot handle one more plot twist.

Reviews for The Spite Date are very positive. MaddMoxie says:

>> This book was a total win for me, the kind you inhale on one night and then stumble through the next day running purely on caffeine and zero regrets. I cackled so hard I woke my husband at least a dozen times, but I would do it again in a heartbeat.

And GetLitwithAshleyZ says:

>> This book was amazing. It’s the kind of book you binge and then have a book hangover the next day. Totally worth it.

Your good book hangover comes in different format options, too! The eBook will be in Kindle Unlimited; while the paperback has sprayed edges, illustrated endpapers, and custom chapter headings; plus the audiobook features duet narration by Will Watt and Callie Dalton. The Spite Date by Pippa Grant is out now, and you can find your copy where you like to buy books. Visit pippagrant.com for more information, and there will also be links in the show notes.

Thank you to Pippa Grant for sponsoring this week’s episode, and thank you for supporting our advertisers.

Support for this episode comes from Skims, who want me to talk about my favorite bra, and that is absolutely not a problem. The Fits Everybody T-shirt bra rules. I know you’ve heard me say this before; it is still true: I did not think that I could ask for more than Yeah, it mostly fits with a bra, but it turn out I was wrong. I don’t have to put up with any bra that is itching, pulling, pinching, ride up – riding up – slipping off my shoulders, or, you know, when it pops an underwire and stabs you, usually at a pont, point where – or, you know, when it pops an underwire and stabs you at a point where you can’t actually do anything about it? That is the worst. I want all my bras to be like the Fits Everybody T-shirt bra, honestly. I reach for it all the time. I was sad when I handwashed it and it had to dry, because I love it so much. It is comfortable, it is soft, it is not bulky, it offers the exact right amount of support, it’s smooth under my clothing, and once I put it on I forget I have it on because it is so comfortable. I love traveling with it too, because it is very lightweight. My favorite part about the Fits Everybody T-shirt bra is that it comes in a wide range of sizes and skin tones, so if I’m wearing a thin top or, you know, that one shirt I should probably throw away, but I still haven’t, it blends in perfectly; nothing shows. I actually look forward to wearing it, which is not a thing I expected. And now that I’ve tried both the ultimate pushup bra and the Fits Everybody T-shirt bra, I’ve been telling everybody about Skims bras, even my poor neighbors. You can shop my favorite bras and underwear at skims.com. After you place your order, please be sure to let them know that I sent you. Select Podcasts in the survey and be sure to select my show in the dropdown menu that follows. Or visit skims.com/SARAH.

Are you ready to get started on this podcast? Excellent; I am too. Here are your timestamps: at twenty-two minutes [22:00] there are mild spoilers for the Lynburn Legacy series by Sarah Rees Brennan, if you’ve never read them, and at twenty-four minutes, thirteen seconds [24:13] there’s a discussion of weight loss and cosmetic surgery. You want to skip ahead about a minute. I like to be as thorough as I possibly can. And now, on with the podcast.

[music]

Holly Black: Hi! I’m Holly Black. I’ve written fantasy for kids, teens, most recently for adults, most of it folkloric-based, a great deal involving fairies, but my most recent duology, which is Book of Night and Thief of Night, involve shadow magic.

Sarah: I am very curious, and I have many questions. Congrats on Thief of Night. I know this is a sequel, and I try very hard not to spoil a book when we’re, you know, when I’m doing a podcast. What can you tell me about this story and the world of it?

Holly: So I’ve been living in, in Amherst, Massachusetts, for, since 2004. I grew up in New Jersey, and a lot of my work, like, involves New York and New Jersey, and this is my first book that’s actually set where I’ve been living, and so it’s sort of a love letter to where I am now. And it’s a world where some people have these quickened hungry shadows that they can use for magical purposes, so long as they’re willing to feed them blood and energy. And it’s about Charlie Hall, who’s a retired con artist and magnet for trouble.

Sarah: Okay, I love a retired con, con artist, but I do have a question. I used to live in Jersey; I lived there for like twenty years. What –

Holly: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: What kind of magic do you think comes out of Jersey?

Holly: So growing up, I felt like suburbia was always portrayed as, like, these cookie-cutter houses that all look the same, and one of the things that I was super interested in in my early work was writing about the suburbia I understood, which had a lot of liminal spaces. It actually has a lot of natural spaces. So, you know, you have these weird stretches of woods behind houses and off of highways, and you have these kind of abandoned areas which, which feel really magical and which can be moved into. When I was growing up, behind my high school was this place called Cemetery Hill, and it had a house-built mausoleum, and it had just been abandoned part way through, and so the top level of it had all of these trees that had grown up in the top level, and you could go in and they were all, kids tagged, you know the walls, and it was, like, such a magical space. I think I’ve probably written it into like three or four books?

Sarah: I mean, why not?

Holly: Because I, it was just, like, the most magical space, and I think that stuff you see in suburbs, and in Jersey in particular, is super interesting, because we kind of have an idea of what Jersey is now, but it used to be really fancy. This was the place that presidents went to go to the beach –

Sarah: Yep.

Holly: – because people didn’t fly places. And so, again, you had these, like, in Asbury Park, these incredibly beautiful structures that now have either been repurposed or abandoned. And so I’m really fascinated with, with New Jersey and with, with the ways magic permeates it.

Sarah: I completely agree with you.

Holly: …I had to figure it out, you know?

Sarah: I completely agree with you, and then you have Massachusetts, which is like old, arcane magic.

Holly: One of the thing I was fascinated by when I moved up here and bought this house, and they were like, Oh yeah, it was moved from the Quabbin, and I was like, What’s that? And apparently they had moved some of the houses because they flooded all these towns to make the Quabbin, and so all of the houses that they weren’t moved are underneath water.

Sarah: Oh, creepy, creepy, creepy!

Holly: Right? It’s a drow-, they’re all drowned towns!

Sarah: When that happens in the South it’s like bad vibes, ‘cause it’s almost always a minority town or a largely Black town that gets flooded for whatever lake of death. But, like, anything that has drowned human structures in it? Oh my gosh. My skin is attempting to leave my body right now.

Holly: Right?

Sarah: …so creepy.

Holly: It’s still down there, right?

Sarah: Oh, it’s all, it’s so, still down there, and it’s dangerous to go look at it?

Holly: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: It’s not, it’s not dangerous to…

Holly: I mean, I mean, it is, right. I mean, I don’t, I don’t know. I, you know, because the Quabbin is a, it’s a nature preserve?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Holly: So you’re not even really supposed to be on it without permission, and –

Sarah: Right.

Holly: – you can only boat in certain areas? So, like, you can’t even – I’m sure there’s a way to get to them? But I don’t know.

Sarah: One thing I love, I mean, comparatively to a lot of other nations, we are a very young country. I also, I mean –

Holly: Yeah.

Sarah: – I think we’re about to hit, what, two-fifty? Is it two-fifty next year? It –

Holly: It was, yeah, right? Soon!

Sarah: Yeah, we’re a toddler? We’re two and a half, if we’re going by centuries. We are a two-and-a-half-year-old, and also it shows. But I look at older places –

Holly: [Laughs] Certainly this year!

Sarah: Just a little bit, right? And I look at other countries that are much older and have a much longer history, like if I was studying abroad I, I could touch a wall and think, Wow, students were touching this wall like hundred, two hundred, three hundred, four hundred years ago, going back to the 1500s people been studying in this building. Like, that is a deep, sort of porous amount of history. But I think a lot of people underestimate how creepy and haunted different parts of the US are? And they’re all very different. They’re all haunted in different ways.

Holly: Right, and it is also that we don’t know, right? Because we have a country that’s built on other countries that we are not aware of.

Sarah: Yep. And nations –

Holly: And have not…

Sarah: – that we pretend weren’t there!

Holly: You know, yeah. And then we – yeah.

Sarah: Yep!

Holly: We don’t even know what we’re doing half the time.

Sarah: No, we, like I said, we’re two-and-a-half. And it shows! [Laughs]

Holly: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: We’re just careening everywhere. We’re like ninety percent no impulse control.

So when you were, you did an interview in People magazine. I love to do research about, like, where, like, what are your interviews and what, what have you done on –

Holly: It’s so appreciated!

Sarah: Oh, it’s my favorite part? Because it helps me sort of get a vibe for the guest: what are they really engaged about talking to? What do they, like, really like to talk about? And so I, I do a little bit of research, and you mentioned in People – awesome placement, by the way; it’s so exciting! – you’re exploring the secrets in the parts of ourselves that we try to hide, our shadow selves, and, you know, the hiding doesn’t work long-term, because secrets that are kept out of shame tend to decay us from the inside. What are some of the darker elements that Charlie has to face in both Book of Night and Thief of Night?

Holly: Yeah, I think all books are essentially torture devices built for your protagonist – [laughs] – right?

Sarah: Yes! Yes.

Holly: They’re custom built, like, that way, and so the thematic element has to be the thing, right, it has to be the thing that, that messes with them the most. [Laughs] So, you know, I see Charlie, she’s a person who’s running away from her past. She’s running away from a lot of terrible things that happened to her as a kid, where she wasn’t protected by the people who should have protected her, where she was blackmailed and exploited and nearly killed, and instead of dealing with any of that, she shoved it down into her Jungian shadow if you have the right, you know, the sort of disowned parts of herself, and she’s been trying to work that – well, she’s been trying not to work that out, and I have been forcing her to work that out for two books.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Holly: And, right, you know, she is tied to a literal shadow, one of the hungry shadows, and she can’t hide her secrets. She can’t get away from it! And there are parts of her past that, you know, are coming back and that she’s forced to confront, and there’s also some murder.

Sarah: It, it always helps if there’s a murder. Gives them more to do. [Laughs]

Now, I read a bunch of reviews and discussions of your books, and I don’t know if you know, but there are many, ‘cause you’ve been publishing a long time. How’s it feel to be part of rrromantasy, slightly, even though you’ve been writing –

Holly: Yeah. I’ve been…

Sarah: Like, there’s a whole new word for you, what you’ve been doing for twenty years.

Holly: I’m delighted!

Sarah: It’s so great! I have a name…

Holly: [Laughs] Love when we remarket things!

Sarah: I know! [Laughs] It’s been…

Holly: …dystopian? When we were like, Wow, we love science fiction, yay!

Sarah: What happened?! So in all of your books, one thing that readers talk a lot about is the atmosphere, the worldbuilding, that your books are extremely absorbing, like you go in and you’re in a different world, and then you kind of come – like, readers’ll say, like, I, I came out and I was like, Where am I? What am I doing? Where, why is my tea cold? Like, what happened? I like to think of that as, like, I think of worldbuilding in a lot of ways is, is the politics of the world. Who has alliances? Who has power? Who doesn’t? Who is trying oppress so-and-so? Who’s trying to get away from so-and-so? Do you remember what led you into this world or where the politics of this world came from? ‘Cause they’re very intricate; there’s a lot going on.

Holly: That’s a lovely thing to think of people saying. I, I, I actually start plotting from a place of atmosphere, and it’s my…

Sarah: Oh, that’s fascinating!

Holly: …it’s, like, the worst way to plot, because I’m like, I think of the texture of the world, and then I’m like, What plot would give me the feeling that I get when I think of this texture? Like, it’s really not, super inefficient. So I have not –

Sarah: Yes, but it seems to be very effective! [Laughs]

Holly: But I, I have not yet figured out a different way to do it, but I, I do start, actually, from, like, feeling. I think of politics themselves evolved out of my, the way I wanted to figure out how the magic came into the world, because I wanted it to always be there? You know, I, I, you know, fiddled for a while with the idea of, of something that brought it on, but I decided, no, I really wanted it to be something that had existed, and so it had to be something that could have existed, and yet now had become open, and so what changed in my story, became interested in the idea that it was about collective knowledge changing? And so, you know, these sort of news groups building up, and as the internet evolves, so do communities who, like, can realize that their shadow has quickened, and before they lose it are able to sort of learn these magical techniques that people have written down over time, but were sort of lost and, you know, not, not taken seriously because not that the right people didn’t have them. And so I sort of played with how that would organically, I thought, evolve, you know, from, from these news groups to small communities to informal gangs and wealthy collectors, sort of vying for the information, because it’s still such a new discipline.

Sarah: When you were working with the, with the shadow selves, were you reading a lot of Jung?

Holly: I read some. It did not, it, I thought, This will definitely help! And it definitely did not! [Laughs]

Sarah: It’s very – I’ve read it – it’s very dense. [Laughs]

Holly: I think the, the, the three things that really the shadow magic came out of was, one, actually, there’s a, there’s like a, like a video of a bunch of fairy stories, like where, where someone went around into, you know, and, and got people to tell them stories about things that either happened to them or happened in their family? And one of them is about a, a woman who wakes up after sleeping on a hillside, and there’s a little man cutting off her shadow? And she jumps up and he runs away, and she has the sense that if she had lost it something terrible would have happened.

And then, you know, I, when my son was younger, we were walking back from town, and I was just watching him, like, he was fascinated – as we all are, right? – with how, when he passed through a light, his shadow got longer and it got shorter and it would bifurcate, and I thought, This is a kind of magic we all respond to. Like, we all have a, a, a slightly uncomfortable relationship with our shadows.

Sarah: Yes.

Holly: They feel a little too independent.

And then I think the thing that really, like, got me to, I think, a place where I was ready to write this was I, I got my, I got my ears surgically pointed?

Sarah: I know! I, I think it’s so dope!

Holly: [Indistinct] Right? And so when I did, I, I was like, I was fascinated with the idea of somebody who traveled the world performing, you know, a, a fairly minor and, you know, surgery on people, and I thought if someone was traveling around altering people’s shadows, that would be really, that would be really interesting, and that’s sort of where I, I jumped in to being like, Okay, this is how it works. It has to work so that I can have this happen, and now I know something about the magic that I can go from.

Sarah: One of the things that struck me while I was reading was, there was a book – and of course now I cannot remember who wrote it – it was the Linfield series – this is maybe ten years ago? – where this, two characters could talk to each other telepathically, and they’d never met? And – spoiler for the first book – they meet each other, and they’re, like, horrified to be in the same elevator.

Holly: Is this Sarah Rees Brennan’s Lynburn Legacy?

Sarah: Lynburn, thank you! Thank you! I member, remembered it…Sarah Rees Brennan makes sure I get a sunburn, because when I start reading her books and I am outside, I forget that I need sunscreen, and –

Holly: Oh my God.

Sarah: – all of a sudden I’m on fire.

Holly: Long Live Evil!

Sarah: Right?

Holly: So good!

Sarah: Oh my God!

Holly: So good!

Sarah: Holy crap! [Laughs] I was very sunburned after Long Live Evil.

Holly: [Laughs] Oh no!

Sarah: But SPOILER for the Sarah Rees Brennan series Lynburn (I remembered as Linfield ‘cause my brain is great): in, in the end of the first book, she separates from the other person by cutting off her shadow! And it’s like –

Holly: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – Wow, how many different ways have we, in fantasy, been exploring the darker side of ourselves, this side of ourselves that we know we have –

Holly: Right.

Sarah: – that we don’t want to engage with. And it’s –

Holly: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – fascinating, because we all, like you said, we all respond to that dark side of ourselves at the same time, that we’re trying to, like, not acknowledge that it exists.

Holly: Right, and we all have – it’s interesting – we all have a bit of folklore that’s, like, we have that sort of that Peter Pan, do you fold up your shadow, what it, like – it’s super interesting, ‘cause it’s not a large folklore discipline, shadow magic, but there is, there, there’s stuff that echoes.

Sarah: It’s everywhere! Yeah!

Holly: …the fact that’s – it’s so funny you say that, because I’m like, Oh, yeah, that does happen! I bet I was thinking, I bet my, my back brain remembered that! [Laughs] Thanks, dude!

Sarah: Exactly! No – you’re welcome! No spoilers, but other Sarah also gets more credit than me. Like you said, this shows up! This shows up everywhere! There’s lots of different, pockets of shadow negotiation. The other thing I thought about with the traveling minor surgery altering shadows? But it made me think of the current discourse about plastic surgery –

Holly: Mmm.

Sarah: – and cosmetic surgery, and how there’s becoming, at least in the States, it’s becoming much more visible and common? We’re much more upfront about how we are altering ourselves to accommodate a specific ideal or, you know, make ourselves more comfortable in our houses. I’ve had plastic surgery. Like, I, I don’t care what you do to your house; I think it’s awesome! [Laughs] Whatever, whatever floats your boat! But it, it is still something that is looked down on as shameful. You’re, the way that we approach our shadow selves, too.

Holly: Right, right. It’s true: we have a really, we have a complicated relationship with the idea of anything that, that we can perceive as cheating, right? Right, makeup even, right? People will get…

Sarah: Yes!

Holly: – about makeup.

Sarah: Makeup and weight loss?

Holly: Right. If you don’t do it the right way?

Sarah: You’re doing it the wrong way! Like, is there a right way?

Holly: I mean, right! The right way is, you do nothing and you’re organically beautiful and perfect, right? And any, any effort that you take –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Holly: – or make, you know, that isn’t sort of the right thing – like, I guess you could probably go to the gym, but, like, you’re, you know, you’re not even really supposed to eat less to be fit, right? You’re supposed to be a person who can, you know, not make trouble, who can eat everything, who can, you know –

Sarah: Yes.

Holly: – talk about it, too. I mean, ‘cause we read a lot of books, and this stuff comes out in books all the time, right. This is the burden every protagonist must bear, and specifically female protagonists.

Sarah: Oh, we’re so harsh on them, the way we’re harsh on each other! And we don’t talk about that nearly enough.

Holly: Mm-hmm!

Sarah: And one of the things I love about Charlie – again, no spoilers – is that she, she fucks up! Like you said, what was the descriptor of the, of the second book? She’s a sticky mouse, a sticky flytrap of, of trouble?

Holly: …maybe. [Laughs] Yeah, she is. Oh yeah, the, yeah, she is, right. You know, I’m terrible at my own, I’m terrible at all quotes? Including quotes from my own book!

Sarah: So one of the things that I also noticed that readers talk about is how, there, there are a lot of books right now with shtupping –

Holly: Mm!

Sarah: – in them.

Holly: Mm-hmm!

Sarah: You can, you can have sex with literally many, many things that, at this time in romance. We’re very into –

Holly: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – lots of sex at the time. We, we kind of go up and down. And readers have talked about how your characters just kissing each other’s necks is hotter than some full erotic sex scenes that they’ve read. Like, the sexual tension is so high that it’s like, it’s like that, that one scene in the Colin – Colin Firth – in the Keira Knightley Pride and Prejudice –

Holly: Oh right!

Sarah: – where he helps her into the carriage and holds her hand, and then he’s like, Oh my God, girl cooties, and I can’t handle the feeling! Yeah, it’s like that; it’s like this incredible moment –

Holly: Ah.

Sarah: – of just the tiniest amount of touch! And readers are like, Oh my God, it was so hot! Like, there’s a whole, there’s a whole thread about how, like, Holly Black rights hot things without sex scenes, and it’s just not fair?

Holly: I so appreciate that? That is so kind? Because I know that my sex scenes are too abbreviated for some? I was, I was on tour in Canada, and, you know, a, a woman asked me, you know, Does your publisher, like, make you take out parts of your sex scenes? [Laughs] And I was like, Actually, my editor told me to add more. And, and –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Holly: – the woman was like, Well, why didn’t you? And I was like, Girl, I did!

Sarah: I did!

[Laughter]

Sarah: I just, I love the idea of that editorial comment in the margin, Could there be maybe more boning here?

Holly: [Laughs] I’m like, I think –

Sarah: More boning.

Holly: – like, maybe make it more clear what’s even happening? I mean…

Sarah: Boi-oi-oing

Holly: – showing this to Rina, so I appreciate any kind words, because I know I’ve got work to do.

Sarah: Seriously, readers are very into the sexual tension of your books and the attraction between the characters. There’s often, you know, you’re writing fantasy; there’s big stakes –

Holly: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – to keep them apart or together or whatever. I often describe the difference between internal and external conflict –

Holly: Mmm!

Sarah: – as external conflict is when the world will end if we do or do not bone, depending on the book, and then an internal conflict is my world will end if we do or do not bone, but the rest of the universe is kind of indifferent to it. But the sexual tension is, you know, I mean, I mostly read romance, so that’s a very important part. What do you think are the necessary elements for you when building vivid and believable sexual tension and attraction between characters? I know you said you start with the vibe; do you start with the vibe in that scenario as well?

Holly: The dynamic, definitely, the dynamic. And I’m super interested in power dynamics. I think that’s really fun. I think obviously longing is a big part of what we all enjoy from a sex scene, and I think that some level of, like, fear and risk creates tension, and I think what we as readers respond to about, like, really intense dynamics? You know, even, like, dynamics that look like, Oh, this feels on the edge of something that I don’t know how I feel about, but I like! Like, monster romance, which, you know, to some extent the Of Night series is, right. I think the level of intensity we experience from reading that –

Sarah: Yeah.

Holly: – feels as close as we can get to the feeling we have at the much smaller and more realistic romantic risks in our real life, because they feel as big –

Sarah: Yes.

Holly: – as, as, as very problematic dy-, right, as really high-stakes dynamics! Like, to get –

Sarah: [Laughs] Yes!

Holly: – to the feeling we really have, I think we have to create in literature often something that is much bigger stakes.

Sarah: Especially in romance, for example. You’re basically writing about limerence and attraction –

Holly: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – and sex and, and all of these things that bring us together and, you know, there’s a thousand of those stories every hour! People meeting or boning or whatever. Writing it into a book, it has to be bigger; the stakes have to bigger. And the intimacy is a risk!

Holly: Yeah.

Sarah: Like, there’s always a risk in intimacy, and it’s terrifying! I mean, especially because I think, I think culturally, people are moving farther and farther apart, because we talk online, we were, were quarantined for a couple of years. We, we, we have maintained social distance, and for me, as an introvert, that’s fine, but I also notice that the number of ways I’ve heard people talk about social anxiety? And the way that, like, I don’t want to go to that; that’s too many people; I, I was afraid to go into this book club because I don’t know anyone; that’s a fear of intimacy! Just showing up and being seen –

Holly: And judged!

Sarah: – is, is risky.

Holly: Right!

Sarah: And judged! And risky, ‘cause we just talked about that, yeah. The, so if you said that the fear and the risk creates tension, you know, because intimacy –

Holly: Right.

Sarah: – is that, is that risk, when you’re writing that, the power dynamics and the tension, are there things you make sure you want to include, or are there things that you try to stay away from, or are you just sort of like, Whatever happens, it’s great?

Holly: I think I’m, I’m trying to figure out a thing that will express that dynamic. That will, you know, get to the, the, you know, push that dynamic as far as I can push it, and –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Holly: – so I don’t start with it, usually. I might start with something. You know, when I was writing the Cruel Prince series, it was one of the few times that I went ahead and wrote the par-, a particular scene, which is in, in like the late middle of the first book, in which one of the, Jude is trying to decide whether or not she is going to murder this, this guy, Cardan, who then confesses that he feels desire for her. Not love, desire, right? And he is very upset about it. Does not want to have those feelings. And so, like, for that piece of business, I did start with – and I was like, if this doesn’t work, nothing in this book will work, and so I better figure out –

Sarah: Yeah.

Holly: – how to make this part work before I go back and do this other stuff, because if I don’t know how –

Sarah: So you’re sort of giving, you’re giving yourself –

Holly: Yeah, like, this is –

Sarah: – a destination to go to.

Holly: – I need this stuff, this real weird piece of business to work, you know, and if, you know, it’s obviously, it’s funny in retrospect, because when I was writing that book I thought, No one will like this guy. He’s horrible! He’s, like –

[Laughter]

Holly: But I guess YOLO!

Sarah: That proved incorrect!

Holly: And, you know, yeah, you – so you can’t always tell, either! Like, you, I think you have to write for yourself, you have to write the dynamic you’re interested in and, you know, believe that some people at least will go along with you if you like it enough, and if you care enough to get it the, like, really – ‘cause it’s, I think all romance is also calibration. It’s small movements.

Sarah: Oh, really!

Holly: Because, like, there’s a massive difference between people’s motivations for doing something. You know, like, and how we perceive them. You know, we, I, you know, we need, you need – and, and, like, what connects them? And – I think the most romantic thing in the world is to see and be seen.

Sarah: Exactly as you are!

Holly: Right, and so what is the moment where they, where you really have that? And, and where does it come? And how do you, how do you express that? How do you – and how do you hide that? Like, all of those things are really, you know, moment to moment, like, small calibrations. People often, like, ask me what’s fun to write? Like, who I like writing the most, and I think they expect it to be, like – [laughs] – you know, often the, like, the romantic hero, right? Because – he is the hardest person always to write because it’s all calibration. If you say it this way, it means one thing; if you say it this way, it means another thing. If you proceed, if you are, you know, too mushy here, then the tension goes out of the scene!

Sarah: Ages and ages and ages ago, like I think 2008, I did an interview with Lisa Kleypas, who said something that I have never forgotten? She said a really good sex scene causes as many problems as it solves.

Holly: Ah, so good!

Sarah: Isn’t that so accurate, though?

Holly: So good!

Sarah: Because you don’t want your book to do, like, the, the equivalent of jumping the shark, like, Okay, and they boned! We’re bored. There’s no tension anymore. They hath boned.

Holly: Mom’s first confession to me –

Sarah: Please tell!

Holly: – which is that I will skim sex scenes in which there is no plot going on.

Sarah: Me too.

Holly: And by plot I mean human, like, like, people plot. Like, if there’s no tension, if I’m, if they’re not scared, if they’re not feeling anything but, like, Yay! I, I’m sorry, I skim, I’m sorry!

Sarah: Please don’t apologize, because I do the exact same thing.

Holly: Really?

Sarah: My least favorite is when there’s a, you know, a pair of characters who have all of these conversational problems, and they don’t communicate very well, but somehow in the bedroom he turns into, like, the dirty-talking king, and she’s actual –

Holly: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: And I’m like, Where did the roleplay come from? What, what happened?

Holly: Right? Who are these people?

Sarah: What the hell happened? Just ‘cause you’re going to Bone Town doesn’t mean you’re different people! It’s almost like the expectation of the sex scene and the expectation of the character journey sometimes diverge.

Holly: Mm-hmm. And when –

Sarah: Yep.

Holly: – you see, like, character stuff being worked out in intimacy? It is, like, amazing. It is just so good and, but so hard to do.

Sarah: Yes.

Holly: So hard to get that, that right; so hard – ah, she’s, yeah, she’s, this is a great, that’s a great quote.

Sarah: Isn’t it true, though? It’s so true. Every book where I’ve, like, read the sex scenes and really, like, absorbed every part, I’m like, Oh, that’s what’s happening here! This is a release of some tension and the establishment of more tension in a completely different direction. Oh yes, I love it, I love it, I love it.

You’ve given your characters a lot of different powers and a lot of different worlds, and I love to ask writers of fantasy this question: you’ve got magical systems, you’ve got different personal and community powers. Which of the powers that you’ve written would you like to have for yourself and why?

Holly: Okay, so I’m obviously somewhat tempted by stopping aging and not dying. Like one of the Folk? I’m tempted.

Sarah: Yeah.

Holly: But it is probably, it probably would be immensely lonely. So I think I’m going to go with, so in The Darkest Part of the Forest, there’s a, the protagonist Hazel has a different life at night? She essentially never sleeps. [Laughs] She’s Day Hazel and Night Hazel? And though I personally love sleep, doing without it would be fantastic. I could get so much done! That’s my dream.

Sarah: I, I am the same, because I need a minimum of eight and a half hours. I just, that’s how my brain is; I accept this about my brain. But I also, because as I age, I have a hard wakeup. I’m  not going to sleep in past X time. I used to be able to sleep, like, all day!

Holly: Aging and sleep is messed up. Aging and sleep is almost, it’s like –

Sarah: It’s so wrong! Like, my teenagers can sleep like fourteen, fifteen hours and then just be like, Hey, I’m fine! I’m like, if I did that I would be a mess for a week! I would love to have a Night Sarah and a Day Sarah. I mean, that would be pretty awesome!

Holly: So much done.

Sarah: Wait, here’s what we can do: we deputize our shadow selves to do chores at night?

Holly: Yep…Get to work, shadow self!

Sarah: Yes. I need you to unload the dishwasher, you know, clean up some of the pet hair, maybe vacuum, that’d be great. I’ll sleep through it. That, that’s what I want.

Holly: Ready to give up my blood, some blood and a few memories? I’m ready. I’m already…anyway. [Laughs]

Sarah: Not a problem; it’s fine; I don’t care. Go ahead, take ‘em. I mean, I forget things anyway. Like, what – I wouldn’t even know what was missing! What memory are you taking? I don’t remember! Fine!

So I always, as I said, do research on my guests, and I saw you on The Kelly Clarkson Show, and I watched that clip like three times, because I was like, Oh my gosh, I would lose my mind to be sitting across from Kelly Clarkson. Like, I would just not – my, my inner thirteen-year-old would really not handle it well. Please tell me what that was like.

Holly: So she – first of all, she smelled fantastic. [Laughs]

Sarah: Oh, see, that’s the kind of detail that you –

Holly: She was a delight! Like, she truly was super nice. I didn’t talk to her for, you know, very long past the –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Holly: – the segment, but she and one of her band members both told me about the secret doors in their houses. Which was incredible! [Laughs] They both have secret doors!

Sarah: Secret doors?

Holly: Secret doors! Secret rooms!

Sarah: That’s so cool! So were you nervous when you did that?

Holly: I was terrified, and in fact, I mean, I think, I’ve been in…I was incredibly fortunate to get to be on television, and every time I’ve ever been on television I know what an incredible, like –

Sarah: Oh yes.

Holly: – you know, gift I’m being given. But I dread it and never watch myself. I don’t feel like, I feel like I don’t know how to be the sort of shinier and more polished version that gives, like, the quick, clever answers and is TV ready? And so I – [laughs] – just try my best, and then never look back. Like, you know what I mean? Try to learn from the experience without actually seeing the experience.

Sarah: Reliving the experience?

Holly: Right. I don’t need to know. I don’t need to, you know, ever see it from that perspective, so, but I, I’ve hidden in the bath-, I hid in the bathroom when we did Spiderwick on tel-, we did, like, one of the good morning shows, and, like, I hid in the bathroom while Tony watched it. I was like, No. There’s no world –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Holly: – in which I’m watching myself on television. I’ll never do it again! And actually, the thing that is best about television is that when you’re doing it you’re really not in front of people. Like, you’re in front of a few people, but you’re not in front of that many, although she does have a studio audience!

Sarah: Yes, ‘cause she’s performing.

Holly: Yeah. She was a delight, though; so nice. Really.

Sarah: Oh, I’m so glad to hear that. She seems like she gives really good Christmas gifts. Like, if you’re on her gift list you’re getting a really thoughtful present.

Holly: You get a little basket! When you –

Sarah: What?!

Holly: You get like a…like a, you have the, I got, like, a Kelly Clarkson, like, cup and, like, popcorn. Like, they give you stuff!

Sarah: They give you stuff?

Holly: And all…like, the support people who, like, they all, like, they were texting me, like, beforehand, like, trying to get pictures and stuff? So nice! Like, it is a, it’s clearly, like, she’s clearly linked to everybody there is nice.

Sarah: It’s really cool when you see somebody famous surround themselves with people who are, like –

Holly: Mm-hmm!

Sarah: – decent and good. I have done live television twice, once in Canada and once in the US?

Holly: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: I don’t even remember it, I was so freaked out? But I do remember –

Holly: It’s so fast!

Sarah: Oh my God, it’s like Boom and you’re done. I went on this show in Canada, and I, and it was two men that would, hosted this, like, daytime chat show, and they invited me up to talk about my book, and we had little mugs of water? And they were like, You don’t have to drink the water. It’s mostly just, you know, for a prop? The minute I got out there and I was like, Oh my God, I’m on live TV; I’m in front of all of Canada; there’s like, you know, thirty people in the audience and I’m on this set; and my mouth goes so dry I cannot speak? So so much of that, like, little tiny appearance is me delicately sipping water so it doesn’t get picked up on the mic, but my mouth is gone. I can’t talk? I am so freaked out! It’s so fast, and it’s so, like, it’s a nervous system overload, isn’t it?

Holly: Yeah! You don’t have to watch it; it’s not quite as real. [Laughs]

Sarah: No. So you’ve done Kelly Clarkson; you did one of the morning shows.

Holly: Yeah, I did two morning shows! One back with Spiderwick, and then, and then I’ve done a little bit of, like, local TV?

Sarah: Yeah.

Holly: Which is always, you know, very different, depending –

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Holly: – on where you are, and sometimes, like, much more chill. Like, sometimes they’ll…

Sarah: Oh, for sure!

Holly: – little bit longer? Which is a little bit like, you know, you can sort of get yourself together more.

Sarah: And you can have, like, a conversation, as opposed to book, book, highlight, highlight, okay, thanks, bye.

Holly: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: When you’re doing media appearances, do you find that one particular venue is more effective than others? Or is it all sort of the same tide lifting your name?

Holly: I mean, I think, definitely think TV is a whole different level, right. National TV is, like, you know, the highest level. And I think, you know, print, print magazine stuff? Is, you know, especially, like, the right print magazine stuff is, is…big. But I think you, I, I, also, I think you don’t always know. Like, what is the thing?

Sarah: No.

Holly: Is, is so unclear to me? You know, I had the experience with The Cruel Prince of, like, having what I thought was a really successful book; it was a successful launch; I felt great about it; The Wicked King came out; it was doing great; like, I really felt good about it; and then 2021 came and it blew up on TikTok, and it was a whole different level that I hadn’t – like, I had been really happy! All my books did well, right? And then –

Sarah: Yeah!

Holly: – just a whole different, like, way of doing well in a, in a venue that I wasn’t, you know, like, I, I knew was there, but didn’t really, wasn’t really thinking about myself, and without a new release. I mean, that is the chaos of publishing! Like, you do not know –

Sarah: No.

Holly: – what is the thing and what is the book and why this book, this book at this time in this way, right?

Sarah: Mm-hmm. For sure. And the thing keeps changing, the thing that you have to do? ‘Cause –

Holly: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – Smart Bitches is twenty years old, and when I started, blogs were the thing. Then came BookTube and Bookstagram! And Facebook groups and all of the – and then it keeps changing. Now it’s Instagram and TikTok; now it’s cross-posting on both, because they’re visual and audio mediums. And the thing to do keeps changing!

Holly: Mm-hmm. The thing to do keeps changing. I mean, yeah, you remember LiveJournal! I know you do!

Sarah: Oh, I used to have a specific sharing button on the site for LiveJournal, because I had so much traffic coming out of and into LiveJournal that people would share. I needed a dedicated button for them, because none of the other sharing options would work.

Holly: We’ve been through the social media! [Laughs] And then Tumblr came back!

Sarah: Some of it’s coming back! Like, I think Substacks are blogs! They’re just blogs behind a paywall.

Holly: They’re just blogs –

Sarah: They’re just blogging! I know how to do that! Been doing it a while. And the thing I think that’s most changed is that, how, how public it is. When you show up on the internet, especially with, with your name or with your voice or with – that is very, very specifically personal and public? Because you know there’s a bunch of weird people who like to dox people as a hobby, and that’s terrifying. So I understand the need for paywalls; that’s why I created one. But when the thing to do to promote yourself and your books keeps changing, it’s so frustrating. It’s so, like, it’s just very depleting?

Why do you think, do you have any theories as to why, why The Cruel Prince hit again when it did? I have theories about, like, the combination of COVID and lockdown and extremely high-stakes fantasy? I think all of those combine into a whatever, whatever captures that vibe? We’re back to vibes again.

Holly: I think…like, I think you’re right. I think people were reading a ton, and so they were –

Sarah: Mm-hmm!

Holly: – like, you know, reading, reading backward a bit because we were having trouble finding newish stuff? And so I think people were reading a little more back than they normally do. Like, normally people are like, Oh yeah, well, what’s the newest release? But it actually was really hard to find the newest release, which is another, separate, tragic story for so many people who had their releases in those years, and for whom I know it was a truly devastating time.

Sarah: Yeah.

Holly: But I think there was a lot of, some reading back, and I think, yeah, like, I think somewhat escapist high-stakes fantasy, romantasy sort of got its, you know, a big push during that time.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Holly: It’s always right, right time, right place, right book, right? When’s the thing.

Sarah: Yep.

Holly: And it’s interest-, like, I was writing Book of Night during, during lockdown, and it was very weird to be essentially feeling like I was in a more high-stakes situation – [laughs] – than my protagonist. I was like, I am more stressed out than you are!

Sarah: Way too many people are looking at me at this time. They’re not actually looking at me right now, but I know that they are perceiving me and seeing what I do next. How do you handle that, that stress of perception and, and, and those stakes? Like, that, that would…creativity.

Holly: Oh, I was just thinking of COVID! I wasn’t even thinking – [laughs] –

Sarah: Oh!

Holly: I was just thinking I’m more stressed about not knowing what’s happening. But, but yes, also, also perception. I don’t google myself at all.

Sarah: See, that’s very smart. I used to have a google alert for my name, and at one point I was like, What are you doing?

Holly: Yeah! Oh, I did too! It’s not like, it’s not like I came by this through great, you know, starting out with great wisdom. I came through this by doing all of the bad things. [Laughs] Reading my Goodreads reviews; you know, feeling like I needed to know everything that was out there. Feeling like, you know, whatever emotional experience I was having, I wasn’t really, like I was supposed to discount, and then I just sort of got to a place where I realized – the thing that really tipped me over was that I read a really good review? And I couldn’t write for the rest of the day, because –

Sarah: Oh no!

Holly: – I was just thinking, This book is not as good as the book they liked! And I thought, it’s one thing if bad reviews make me feel bad, but if good reviews make me feel bad and bad reviews make me feel bad, I can’t keep doing this.

Sarah: I have given many workshops on how to interact with reviews, how to process reviews, how to put them in your rearview mirror?

Holly: Right.

Sarah: And the two things I always tell people, tell authors is, It is entirely normal for you to reach out to me and say, I’d like to send you my book; I don’t have any intention of ever reading what you say about it. That’s normal; don’t feel weird about that. But also, if they said your name and they spelled the name of the book, great, you win. Doesn’t matter what comes after that. Did they talk about your book?

Holly: Yeah. That makes, that makes total sense. I think –

Sarah: Victory!

Holly: – that I like to go and sometimes look at, like, what’s the, what’s the overall cumulative rating?

Sarah: Yeah.

Holly: Have people liked it?

Sarah: Yeah.

Holly: And if people haven’t liked it, I can send an emissary to go and tell me, like, what wasn’t working. I don’t, it’s not that I don’t think that, that teabag is valuable; I just don’t think that…like, it’s better cumulatively.

Sarah: Oh yeah. I heard of authors who have their assistants sort of go through reviews after a certain amount of time and just pull out the major themes.

Holly: Right, like, what is, right, what’s, what’s resonating, what’s not resonating? [Laughs] You super don’t know, which is very alarming! But I think that’s why in the end you have to write for yourself.

Sarah: I really think that writing the things that you’re excited about or you’re into, that translates into the book. It’s like when you watch a show and you can tell the writer, or the, the, the writers and the actors are having a really good time? It adds something to the show. Like, you can tell they’re happy being there; they’re really into what they’re doing. Or they’re just really good actors and I am misreading the situation. Could be either.

Holly: Which, I mean, as a person who kind of grew up thinking of myself as an outsider and a weirdo, like, has been a really good lesson to realize how much we’re all connected, how much we all do love very similar things. You know, how big of a community it is who are into the things I really like.

Sarah: Oh yeah! Yeah, that’s the rule of the internet: whatever, whatever weird thing you’re into, I promise someone else is into it too. And now we can talk to each other!

Holly: …narrowly and specifically now.

Sarah: Yes! Oh yeah. There’s probably a subreddit already! You just didn’t know!

[Laughter]

Sarah: One other reader comment that I found a-lot-a-lot, like repeatedly, was that you got people into reading; your books made them readers. Like, one person said Tithe made me a reader, and I have not stopped reading since. That was the book that changed what I do with my time. Which is a big old compliment! Which of your books do you hear the most about from readers? Is it The Cruel Prince? And what does it feel like to have people say they grew up with your books?

Holly: Well, in terms of growing up with my books, it felt one way when I was, when I was, you know, young people saying it – [laughs] – feels an entirely different way when it’s grown people with kids of their own, I’ll tell you that!

Sarah: I have that same experience, yeah.

Holly: But it always feels special, and I am always incredibly grateful and happy to hear it. I’m always excited that they stuck with me? You know, this is a job where I know you know, like, success is getting to still do the job.

Sarah: Yes! Being still here –

Holly: Right?

Sarah: – is the, is the –

Holly: Right! Being still here is success! And that’s because of readers who stuck with me, and so, yeah, it’s always a, a great honor to have, you know, done, done something that they feel is good? You know, and something that meant something to them, and for them to hang around!

Sarah: Do you hear the most about The Cruel Prince?

Holly: Right now. Right now I hear the most about The Cruel Prince. We just go into graduation season, and I got a lot of letters from graduates with their announcements – so sweet! And, like, sometimes I get wedding announcements, which is really sweet.

Sarah: Oh, that’s adorable!

Holly: But I also, you know, I still get Spiderwick letters. I just got a comment the other day asking for some more in another point of view? So it is a mixed bag! People discover different books at different times, and different books kind of stick with them. But, you know, and, and, and the book you get the most letters, changes, right, as, as –

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Holly: – you know, ideally, ideally, because, you know, that’s also always like the, a thing that makes you nervous is, you know, that, that that’s it.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Holly: That you’ll never have a thing that resonates with people again in that way.

Sarah: Congrats on that, by the way. That’s really a cool accomplishment!

Holly: It is great to have a second act, you know, and a third act.

Sarah: Yeah!

Holly: And, like, like, like I was saying, right, staying on the horse is, is success.

Sarah: Yes. Every year when I file my, you know, my, my business annual report with the state and I, you know, do all the year-end things I think, Still here! I’m a blog, and I’m still here. And that’s, that’s, that’s the goal, right?

Holly: Still here! Is the right, is the…success!

Sarah: That is making it. I’m still here.

Holly: You know, I’m sure, like, I know when, when all else, when you started out, right, there were other blogs…

Sarah: Oh, many!

Holly: – other people, and you, you know, one day you look to the left and look to the right, and it’s just you! And –

Sarah: Yes.

Holly: – scary moment!

Sarah: It’s very weird. But I have always felt – and I imagine you sometimes felt this way too – that in terms of my career, I wasn’t doing anything that I could follow someone else? I sort of stand in a field with a scythe and say, Oh, that looks interesting! Let’s go that way! Oh, that looks interesting! Let’s try that! I’m in the field with a scythe making my own trail, because who am I going to follow that does this? There’s, there’s not that many people. And that’s, that’s fine! I’m not saying I’m, like, the most special one. But it also means I have to figure it out every time.

Holly: Yeah.

Sarah: And the fact that I have is, like, I’m very proud of myself. [Laughs]

Holly: In a fast-, in a fast-moving field, you have, you know?

Sarah: Oh yeah, internet changes kind of quickly? It’s very annoying.

Holly: Go fast.

Sarah: You said in an interview on Wondermind that writing is a lot like a slow-motion gamble. Which is brilliant and true, yes, because you are creating the story and then, like, I don’t know, like eighteen months from now, someone’s going to read it, and you’re going to be like, Oh, what did I say? I don’t remember. And I’ve spoken to a lot of authors who are like, I, I am really struggling to do publicity for this book, because I’m in the middle of another book, and I wrote this one like a year and a half ago, and, like, I don’t remember that much! Which I completely understand! That’s how my brain is all the time. What are you slow-gambling on now?

Holly: [Laughs] Yeah, I mean, it’s true, right? You’re, you’re right; it takes you two years to write a book; takes it, you know, maybe a year, year and a half to come out –

Sarah: Yep.

Holly: – and then, you know, it’s like, it’s like throwing dice and waiting four years to see –

Sarah: Yeah!

Holly: – how they land.

Sarah: That’s fine.

Holly: So after Thief of Night I have an Elfhame book that I haven’t announced yet, but – and also I’m going to figure out a proposal for what I do after that, which is going to be something in adult.

And I have a card game! Enemies and Lovers: we did a Kickstarter last year? It’s an Elfhame-based card game, which I made, which is maybe the most fun thing, well, like, one of the most fun things I’ve ever done, and the commercial, like, retail version is coming out with Van Ryder Games this winter.

Sarah: That’s amazing! Oh my gosh, that’s cool!

Holly: It was so much fun to do!

Sarah: What was that like?

Holly: Dude, I, like, talked to somebody about doing a game, like I’m…a game –

Sarah: Right.

Holly: – and I have some friends who have, like, made games, and I thought, Oh, I could go to my friend, you know, one of my friends and talk about it, and then I thought, You know what? I am growing up with game, I grew up with Dungeons & Dragons, I edited gaming magazines, I went to Origins, like, I play games! Like, maybe I could give it a try. And so I started trying to figure out what it would be like and me and my husband and my son, we would just play it all the time as it evolved, and my son definitely made, made up a whole bunch of different cards that we wound up using, and I wanted it to have a dynamic that felt like it had some connection to the Elfhame books, and so part of it –

Sarah: Yeah.

Holly: – was figuring out what that was. And so it’s a lot of backstabbing and betrayals, and I wanted it to be fast enough for, you know, my then like seven- or eight-year-old, who is now eleven, you know, to, to enjoy it.

Sarah: Yeah! Well, I just looked it up, and it was fully funded in thirty minutes. Hot damn!

Holly: Well, I was so excited! It was, like, I was so glad people came and, like, were willing to, to try it!

Sarah: I think that’s fascinating, but you, you met your spouse through Dungeons & Dragons, am I re-, remembering correctly?

Holly: I did! In high school!

Sarah: Oh, I met my husband in high school too! Wasn’t Dungeons & Dragons.

Holly: Did you really? I always, I always think that, you know, I can, I feel, I feel justified in writing YA books in which people stay together, ‘cause I’m like, Look!

Sarah: This is exactly how I feel when I read a review that’s like, I don’t believe that these people are going to be together forever; they’re just in high school. And I’m like, But I do! [Laughs]

Holly: Yeah, I, I believe!

Sarah: I absolutely believe it! I think my high school class had two marriages. I’m one of the two, and we’re still going strong, both of us.

Holly: We were rival Dungeon Masters!

Sarah: No!

Holly: [Laughs] Yes! My, one of my players went to his, moved to, went to his private…school, from my public school, and joined his campaign.

Sarah: I love that so much. That’s amazing. [Laughs]

Holly: Rivals to lovers!

Sarah: That is so cute and very, very romantic. Very, very romantic.

So I always ask this question: what books are you reading that you want to tell people about?

Holly: So I recently read Seven Days in June by Tia Williams, which was so good! I super loved it. It’s set in the world of publishing. I mean, I can see you know, but it’s set in the world of publishing and so, so good. I loved Amal El-Mohtar’s The River Has Roots? And I really loved M. T. Anderson’s adult debut Nicked?

Sarah: Really!

Holly: It’s fantastic; it’s so fun!

Sarah: Oh, nice! When you’re writing, do you read outside your genre mostly?

Holly: I don’t care.

Sarah: Oh, that’s interesting! I, I speak to a lot of authors, and one of the things that’s most commonly said is –

Holly: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – I can’t read in the genre I’m writing right now? I have to do separately, so if I’m writing fantasy I’m reading contemporary or historical; if I’m writing historical, I’m reading fantasy. But you can read anything! That’s very cool.

Holly: Ah, I mean, I feel like, yeah, I don’t, I don’t actually feel like it will be – you know, if it reminds me that I should be doing something in my book, great. Like, you know what I mean? If it’s, like, if it’s really atmospheric and I’m like, Actually, this is not feeling very atmospheric, now that I read this book? Then that’s really useful to, to actually take on? And I think sometimes we do kind of have the resonance of what we’re reading in what we’re writing? So it is tricky?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Holly: Like, if I read too much contemporary while I’m writing something that’s supposed to be atmospheric, I feel like I’ll actually echo some of that?

Sarah: Yes.

Holly: And sometimes that’s great, right?

Sarah: Where can people find you if you wish to be found?

Holly: I am on Instagram, at blackholly.com, and that’s pretty much all the social media I’ve been getting up to. I’m trying to get off Twitter. I haven’t planted myself firmly in Bluesky? I’m still hanging on the ‘gram, and I have a website and a newsletter.

[outro]

Sarah: And that brings us to the end of this week’s episode. Thank you deeply to Holly Black for connecting with me when I know she is very busy. I will have links to all of the books that we talked about in the show notes at smartbitchestrashybooks.com/podcast under episode 684!

As always, I end with a terrible joke. This week’s joke comes from u/blargdag. I hope I didn’t just say a curse word in another language, but blargdag is the source of this joke. It’s important to cite your sources, especially when it’s blargdag.

How do you measure the quality and effectiveness of a bad joke?

Give up? How do you measure the quality and effectiveness of a bad joke?

With a sighs-mograph.

[Laughs] I, I need to come up with one that’s also about groaning, ‘cause I know, I know you all groan. Sighs-mograph. Thank you, blargdag, for that joke; it totally made my day!

On behalf of everyone here, we wish you the very best of reading. Have a wonderful weekend; we’ll see you back here next week! And in the words of my favorite retired podcast Friendshipping, thank you for listening; you’re welcome for talking!

[end of music]