668. Hot Takes with Sarah & Amanda

[music]

Sarah Wendell: Hello! And welcome to episode number 668 of Smart Podcast, Trashy Books. I’m Sarah Wendell, with me is Amanda, and inspired by a recent episode of The Sam Sanders Show – which is a great podcast, by the way – Amanda and I are sharing our own hot takes and possibly controversial opinions about romance. Oh yes, we are talking about third-act bleak moments, transcending the genre, rom-coms, cozy things, conferences, gatherings, and accessories.

Please be aware, we do take a side trip briefly into parental estrangement and emotional abuse. That will last, oh, about a minute and a half.

There are a lot of links to news and articles and episodes and some books that we talk about, and you know where they’ll be, right? The show notes: smartbitchestrashybooks.com/podcast under episode 668.

I have a compliment today, which makes my entire week.

To Kevin H.: Did you know that yesterday one of your former grade-school teachers thought about you and about how funny and kind and intelligent you are? You were, in fact, a joy to have in class.

If you would like a compliment of your very own or you would like to support this show, hello! Come on, join us; it’s great! Patreon support helps me procure more issues of Romantic Times, keeps the show going, and helps ensure a handcrafted transcript by garlicknitter. Hey, garlicknitter! [Hi there! – gk] Your support means a lot, and your support does a lot. If you’d like to join the Patreon community, it’d be awesome if you did. Have a look at patreon.com/SmartBitches. And if Patreon support isn’t in your cards, may I humbly ask that you leave a review for the show wherever you listen. Or tell some people. Either way, I am very happy you’re here. Thank you for listening!

Support for this episode comes from Skims, who want you to know about the ultimate push-up bra. Did you know push-up bras were back? I have not seen one in ages that I like, but the Skims ultimate bra is everywhere on my social media channels. I remember push-up bras being bulky, itchy, very uncomfortable, and to be honest, I have quite a lot to, uh, raise up, architecturally speaking. But the ultimate push-up bra is delightful. When is the last time I said that about a bra? No idea, but it is true. It is very lightweight, it doesn’t dig into my ribs, and does it push things up? Oh yes, and comfortably so! In fact, I was trying it on and doing the turn all around in the mirror thing, and my younger child walked in and said, Mom, you look great! Which I will take as a compliment, thank you very much. Wearing it was really surprising. It was so comfortable, with very little adjustment needed, and if you’re like me and you have ample assets in that department, this is important for you: the ultimate push-up bra does not make anything bigger. There’s no added bulk. It does, however, mock gravity with the lift and support provided. The fabric is very soft and also comes in a range of colors to match different skin tones. You can shop the Skims ultimate bra collection and more at skims.com. And after you place your order, be sure to let them know I sent you. You can select Podcast in the survey, and be sure to select my show in the drop-down menu that follows. Or go to skims.com/SARAH.

Are you ready for some potentially spicy-hot takes about romance? Let’s do this. On with the podcast.

[music]

Sarah: I would like to record our hot takes about romance. The reason I want to do this is because there’s an episode of The Sam Sanders Show recently – which is actually a really great podcast; I don’t know why I didn’t try it sooner? – where they did, like, hot takes about pop culture. Like, for example, one of their hot takes that I agree with is that Beatles songs always sound better, with the exception of “Hey Jude,” when performed by a Black person.

Amanda: Interesting. Any time – [laughs] – Brian and I were just having this conversation of – any time a Beatles song comes on the radio I’m like, I don’t get the hype. I don’t get the Beatles hype. I’m sure maybe when you’re in the thick of it and it was happening –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Amanda: – while you were living it, maybe that’s, you could feel it better? But, like, I was listening to, what came on? “Come Together.” “Come Together” was on the radio; I’m like, These lyrics are fucking stupid.

[Laughter]

Amanda: What are ju-ju eyeballs? What the fuck are those? Like…

Sarah: Yellow matter custard? [Laughs]

Amanda: Yeah, I was just like, I don’t get it! Anyone who says the Beatles are the greatest band of all time, and they won a Grammy this year because they found an old track and they AI’d John Lennon’s voice onto it and it won a Grammy? [Laughs] Which is insane, but anytime I hear it I’m like, I don’t get it.

Sarah: I –

Amanda: I don’t get it.

Sarah: I understand. When my children were younger – and for the record, now they are almost eighteen and almost twenty, so this is two decades ago – they were first introduced to the Wiggles. The OG Wiggles were huge, and that is a four-man band with a lot of harmony, and they wrote their own songs. And when we started to get a little tired of nonstop Wiggles because there were a lot of Wiggles? It was, it was a lot. We had a – and this was back when you’d, like, make a CD and just keep it in the car? So I had a six-CD changer; four of them were all Wiggles, all the time. My knowledge of the Wiggles catalog is, is only, only matched by actual Wiggles themselves. So we decided to try to, like, shift them into other music? I’ve seen them live twice.

Amanda: Not so much.

Sarah: We started shifting in, like, Hey, have you tried the Beatles? And I showed them this cool video that I’d found on YouTube, and we started listening, and then every CD in the car was Beatles. All of the Wiggles CDs were replaced by Beatles CDs, so my knowledge of the Beatles catalog is pretty substantial because it has such an impact on my kids, and they all know all the Beatles songs. So I don’t mind the Beatles, but I don’t think they’re, like, the top band ever.

The biggest pop star ever, ever, ever? Janet Jackson is better than Michael Jackson. This was something that was discussed –

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: – on Sam Sanders Show as well, and I completely agree, and the reason they gave, which I was like, Oh, obviously: Janet could do “Thriller,” but Michael Jackson could not do “That’s the Way Love Goes.”

Amanda: [Laughs] Yeah.

Sarah: Which, fair, right? It was a really interesting episode, but I was like, Oh, wait – wait, nope, you’re right. That is a spicy take, but you’re right. So I wanted to do that for romance, because I am a hopeless copycat, and I love when people have good ideas and I can go, Ooh, that’s brilliant! Thank you; can I borrow that? So I’m borrowing it. Thank you, Sam!

Amanda: Okay.

Sarah: I’m sure he gives many shits. Please tell me your first hot take about romance.

Amanda: So, my first hot take about romance. I feel like one is maybe on, like, the reader side, and then my second hot take is more on the industry side?

So this one, I, my hot take is a third-act bleak moment or breakup is a necessity to believe that the couple can achieve a Happily Ever After, and I will explain why.

Sarah: Okay, ‘cause I totally disagree, and I’m awaiting the explanation.

Amanda: I know you do.

Sarah: Yeah, I’m, my eyebrows went, like, down to my nose. Please explain! Like, I’m not, I’m not – I, I don’t know, I don’t know that I agree, but I really want to hear your reasoning.

Amanda: So if you look at real-life relationships – and I know romance is a fantasy, and we can get away with a lot in romance that we couldn’t get away with in real life – for me especially, conflict resolution with a partner is very important.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Amanda: And if a couple is tasked with a very tense moment that drives them apart or really challenges them and really amplifies the emotions, how are they going to navigate that in a healthy way or in a way that makes me believe that, no matter what, these two people are able to resolve conflicts, big or small, that can withstand their relationship, rather than miscommunication after miscommunication after miscommunication? I personally want to see their conflict resolution tested as a couple.

Sarah: I agree with you on the conflict, but I don’t know that there has to be a third-act breakup.

Amanda: I think there needs to be a challenging moment. Maybe not a breakup, but like a bleak moment where they are tested towards the end of the book.

Sarah: Okay.

Amanda: I don’t think they necessarily have to break up, but I do think there needs to be sort of that plot point?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Amanda: Where their communication styles and conflict resolution styles are challenged.

Sarah: So effectively what you’re advocating for here is a third-act, os-, you know, ostensibly a third-act moment where their commitment to each other is tested, and maybe for the first significant time they have to choose each other over what other, whatever else things they’ve got going on.

Amanda: Yes.

Sarah: Interesting. I’m not sure I agree, because my, again, my favorite romances –

Amanda: Yeah, we are very different readers! [Laughs]

Sarah: We are very different readers, and my favorite romances are all internal conflict, which you think is boring as all hell. Like, I do not need –

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: – you know, demons flying through the air, and the world is going to end if we don’t bone! Like, my world will end if we don’t bone is my favorite. I can see why having the conflict resolution skills on the page is extremely important, and I can see why you want to see the characters choosing each other over whatever else they have going on, but I don’t need that to be so bleak in the third act, mostly because I’m watching, I want to read books where people have been working out their conflict resolution and figuring out, and figuring out how to choose their partner over all other things.

Amanda: I think what that, I think it can still work in something with an internal conflict, but also, secondly, even if you’ve been working on yourself –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Amanda: – and you know yourself?

Sarah: Yeah.

Amanda: You don’t know how you will be in reaction to another person.

Sarah: Mm.

Amanda: Like, example, I felt pretty comfortable in who I was as a person? But when I started dating my now-fiancé –

Sarah: Isn’t that a fun word to say?

Amanda: I know! Fiancé – they have a different communication style than I do. They are very – I’m avoidant because my emotions ratchet up, and so I need to take a breather before I can talk about something.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Amanda: They are the opposite; they want to talk about and resolve things immediately. Also, they are a more sensitive person, and so I really have to think about the way I’m communicating my feelings in a way that doesn’t inadvertently sort of step on a hot button for Brian…

Sarah: For sure!

Amanda: So even if I feel comfortable in myself as a person, how that mixes with another person can still not work out well? You still have to do further work if you’re like, This person is important to me, and there’s a way that we can compromise our communication skills. Or, like, I thought the way I was communicating is fine! But the damage it does to my partner –

Sarah: Is not worth the ease of my communication method. I understand exactly what you’re saying. I think this relates to why you don’t like friends-to-lovers romance and think they’re so boring, because the, the, the conflict has been resolved over many, many, many years of friendship, and now the conflict is slightly different, but you’ve already got a foundation of knowing how to talk to this person ‘cause you know them so well. I think for you, in this case, the conflict and the conflict resolution is an indication of emotional fluency in your partner, and emotional maturity and, you know, readiness to handle all of the things that come with, with being really, really intimate with someone, and then also being intimate with them when you’re really frigging pissed at them. I get it. I don’t agree, but I get it. I understand –

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: – the stake.

Amanda: I also don’t think that normally – and I stopped reading a lot of, like, friends-to-lovers or second-chance romance or any of, like –

Sarah: All of my favorites, by the way.

Amanda: – best friend’s brother, and I stopped reading those because I don’t see them as having an actual conflict? Like, the ones that I read are always like, Oh, if we cross this line in our relationship, how do we go back if things don’t work out? Am I really jeopardizing this friendship that I value so much?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Amanda: And I feel like if you’re adults and you’ve cultivated a friendship, like, I would hope that there’s really no issue there of why you wouldn’t give it a try if you’re both on the same wavelength.

Sarah: Sexytimes, in a lot of ways, for real people and in romance, sexytime can be an endgame. Like, that can be, if, if it doesn’t work out, then you can’t be with this person or be around them because you’ve added sex to the relationship, and I think for me the conflict that I like is, We get on really, really great, and I have hornypants for you, but if we engage in the hornypants activities, that could endanger us having the relationship that we have now, which I really, really value. That, that totally speaks to me. Like, I am, I am so fascinated by that. However! Let it also be said that I met my husband at high school when I was nineteen – no! When I was seventeen! – and we’ve been together since I was nineteen, so it’s not like I have dated.

[Laughter]

Sarah: I have, people are like, Do you have dating advice? Nope. That is not my department. None at all. My advice is, transfer to Spanish class; that’s my advice for you.

Amanda: I don’t see that as a conflict for me. I just see that as, like, my opinion, those stories, in my brain, are like fifty pages, and then we’re all set. Like –

Sarah: I get it.

Amanda: – you know!

Sarah: I get it. I totally get it! I think this is really interesting, because it’s right down the line of our polar opposite tastes.

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: One, one thing about choosing yourself in a plotline that I really don’t like – this is a hot topic, and I’m going to, I’m going to set the table with a caveat, and this, this is sort of inspired by yours. It’s not one of my, on my list.

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: So I’m going to do a little bit of table-setting; I know that’s really pretentious, but you have to understand: I have had an estranged relationship with my mother for a very long time, and she passed away last year, and I had not spoken to her in ten years. And that is the healthiest decision I’ve ever made for myself. So in my opinion, you can drop people who are harmful to you. Full stop, and I will always advocate: you do not need to injure yourself emotionally and mentally to care for somebody who is a whole-ass adult and should be able to care for their own emotional needs. I’m talking about –

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: – specifically emotional abuse here.

Amanda: Yeah. I’m going on a year; I think it’s like my year anniversary of not speaking to my mother. [Laughs]

Sarah: Has it been a, has it been a good year?

Amanda: For the most part, yeah! And definitely a lot of anxiety has been removed –

Sarah: Oh yes.

Amanda: – from my life.

Sarah: Yes.

Amanda: So it’s, I – [laughs] – I highly recommend it!

Sarah: If, if it’s a problematic relationship, you do not owe people anything, including your parents. I don’t care if you can exchange a kidney. My position is – and this affects my parenting as well – you earn a place in your child’s life when they are an adult, and the way that you earn  that is how you treat them when they don’t have a choice to be around you, because they are dependent on you. You earn a place in your children’s life when they are adults by how you treat them while you’re raising them.

With parental conflict and with the whole idea of, I like what you said about how in a moment, in a bleak moment, the characters are choosing each other over everything else? There are so many romances – and I recognize that this experience is very different for marginalized communities, for diaspora communities; I am fully cognizant of this – but I really struggle (for my own personal reason) with books where the parents have so much control over the protagonist. And I’m like, The first thing you need to do is choose you. You can’t have a relationship with two other people running your life for you. That, that’s, then they’re going to manage your relationship too? That’s not adult; that’s not healthy. So I have a real hard time with, Oh, well, I can’t do this because it will disappoint my father, grandmother, my aunt who left me this business. Did you ever say you wanted that business? How many, how many of the romances have you seen where, like, so-and-so just inherited their aunt’s blah-blah-blah-blah-blah, and they can’t let –

Amanda: I mean…

Sarah: – the business fail! Like, yes, you can!

Amanda: I’m selling it.

Sarah: Did you want this business? Did you talk about this? Was this part of the estate plan? Or was this a surprise? Because you should not surprise people with dogs, cars, or jobs, or ownership of a company. Like, These are not things that you surprise people with. Do not surprise people with a puppy. [Laughs] Do not surprise people with inheriting a business that they may or may not want! Like, Just say no!

This is where I think I, I dovetail away from a lot of romances, because I understand completely having to work out that conflict with whoever is trying to manage, influence, run your life for you, because they may have great intentions, and they may be somebody you care about a lot, but, like, as a character, you have to choose you at some point and also choose the other person that you’re, or persons that you’re in the relationship with. So I, that’s something I don’t love. Okay.

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: So my hot take: I would like to ban the phrase “transcends the genre.”

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: It is no longer allowed. And if I’m allowed to have a couple more phrases, I would like to ban the phrase “fully-fleshed.”

Amanda: You don’t like some, you don’t like some full flesh in your –

Sarah: Just, they’re really fleshed out. What does that mean? That’s gross. It makes me think of viscera, and this is – I’m, I’m just ranting here. Transcends the genre, however, I’m ready to get rid of that as anything referring to romance, because what you’re saying is this book isn’t like other girls.

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: And I see a lot of this with the new Emily Henry book, where people are, are discussing, like, Is this a romance? Is it not? It didn’t, I didn’t like it as much as I liked the other ones. It’s because she’s not writing romance. Now, she herself has said it’s both a mystery with a romance in it – like, she’s tagged it in different ways in interviews. It’s totally up to her how she wants to market her book. What I have a problem with is people who say they tra-, that something transcends the genre. That implies there’s something bad about being in the genre.

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: That’s the most Not Like Other Girls phrase, so I hate that phrase. I am very happy to say, this is a romance and also other genres. It doesn’t quite fit just in romance, ‘cause it’s doing other stuff, but that doesn’t mean that romance is something to be escaped from. You know what I mean?

Amanda: What about transcendingly fully-fleshed?

Sarah: No!

[Laughter]

Sarah: No!

Amanda: Fully, fully transcends the flesh. How can we – [laughs] –

Sarah: What’s it called in Catholic churches where someone rings the bell, and it becomes the body of Christ? Transubstantiation is the Catholic doctrine stating that during the consecration of the bread and the wine, they are physically changed into the substance of the body and blood of Christ, while the physical appearance remains the same. So transubstantiation is this bread and this wine are now body and blood. I do not want any transubstantiation fully fleshed out, because I’m just going to think of Catholic Eucharist. Like, we’re not doing that. Mm-mm, nope! Sorry.

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: What is your other hot take? ‘Cause I have a couple more. I’ve been thinking.

Amanda: Yeah, so I just, I just have one other one. I, I was thinking about things that, like, irritate me in general, but I don’t know how to phrase them without being mean. [Laughs] So –

Sarah: It’s very Aries of you.

Amanda: Yeah. So I need to work on the phrasing of some of them, because –

Sarah: Well, do you want to tell me and we can work on rephrasing? Or wait, you know what? Save the rephrasing ones for the end, and we can, like, talk about them in a bonus ep.

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: Okay.

Amanda: Okay, so my second one is, there are – it’s kind of related to what you just said – there are certain phrases that we now use that have lost all meaning –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Amanda: – and mean absolutely dog shit to me.

Sarah: Yeah!

Amanda: So one of them is romantic comedy. Rom-com means nothing! It means absolutely fucking now.

Sarah: We could do an entire episode about this, and I think that we should. Yes! Rom-com is a meaningless term in a, in literary circles. In a movie I know what that means.

Amanda: Yeah. Humor is subjective, but anything that I read that’s listed as a rom-com does not meet what I find to be humorous, and it, for me, that just comes across as, like, silly, slapstick, and embarrassing, and I don’t like any of those.

Sarah: Oh, I hate that. I hate slapstick; I hate embarrassment. I have said this so many times lately, but I am so over the idea that what starts a contemporary romance is that the heroine has made a mistake, and it has cost her job, her apartment, her whole life, on one mistake, just comes crashing down. Number one, I, where are this person’s friends? How did this happen? Why are they completely alone in the world and have to return to this town they, you know, ostensibly hate? The complete demolishment of someone’s life to start a romance is, like, my least favorite, my least favorite starting point, right? Because that’s supposed to, sometimes that’s supposed to be funny? And it’s not? It’s –

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: – I mean, people are legitimately losing their job in traumatic fashion, so I can’t make that com-, comedic, comedic. Like, that’s just not happening.

Amanda: Yeah. There’s another phrase, and this is, this is going to be spicy! And we just sort of discussed it in a recent Wednesday links post where I shared an article about cozy fiction, and I think cozy is on its way to meaning nothing.

Sarah: Yes.

Amanda: Because in the discussion that we had on the site, which was really interesting, there are two camps of cozy. There is cozy in the context of the worldbuilding? T. Kingfisher does this a lot; a lot of her worldbuilding is kind of dark and dreary and scary, but there’s a coziness to the characters and their environment and the community that they build around themselves. It’s cozy in context of the non-cozy elements, kind of like hopepunk sort of tone. But then there’s, there, there’s cozy in, it’s just vibes. No plot, just vibes, slice of life; we’re here to, like, enjoy ourselves, run a tea shop, run a bookshop. You know, it’s very contained, and it’s very much about the day-to-day lives of reasonably good people.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Amanda: But it’s just kind of like the cozy vibe. And I think, when you have those very two different camps and you call something cozy –

Sarah: Using the same word.

Amanda: – what does that mean to a reader who is looking for one over the other? And some people are like, Well, they’re still defining the term, but it’s like, who gets to define the term and have it set in stone that this is what cozy means? And I think…

Sarah: We’re still trying to figure that out with rrromantasy, so…

Amanda: I know. If you think of cozy mystery –

Sarah: That’s a thing! That’s been a thing forever!

Amanda: There’s a dead body!

Sarah: Yeah.

Amanda: A murder happens, right?

Sarah: Yes, but usually that dead body disappears like an NPC in, like, The Witcher. You’ve killed him, and then he just dissolves into little sparks or whatever. Or you loot his pants for chicken, and then he dissolves. You have to get the chicken out –

Amanda: So –

Sarah: – of his pants first.

Amanda: So is the, is cozy mystery a different cozy than cozy fantasy? I think the word cozy is just becoming so muddied right now in terms of reader expectation –

Sarah: Yeah.

Amanda: – especially if you want sort of a slice-of-life, low-stakes adventure and you get a T. Kingfisher, who, lovely writer, but some fucked-up stuff happens in –

Sarah: Scared the poodle out of me!

Amanda: Yeah!

Sarah: You kidding?

Amanda: So it – I think cozy is on its way to becoming just a nothing-burger.

Sarah: What cozy means in mystery? Very well defined. I know exactly what that is; that is their, that is their term; I get it. Cozy applied to romance I think is supposed to mean low conflict without saying low conflict. Or low stakes.

Amanda: I’d rather just say low conflict or low stakes.

Sarah: Yeah, me too.

Amanda: That –

Sarah: Because it doesn’t have to do with that, it doesn’t have to do with that same shift of women as victims to women as angry protagonists. It’s, like you said, no plot, just vibes. And a plot that – we’ve talked about this before – I think that a lot of people are now writing to trope and then just connecting the tropes in an order that kind of resembles a plot? And so then you’ll read, like I read a, I read a fantasy, a romantasy, a cozy rom- – I don’t even how you – cozy romantasy. It’s got, like, the soft lighting; it looks like Thomas Kincaid painted the cover. You know what I mean.

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: Like, it just glows. You know.

Amanda: Was it The Spellshop?

Sarah: No.

Amanda: Sarah Beth Durst.

Sarah: No, it was a different one, but it kind of looked like that.

There was a point where I was like, I understand the vibes that you’re going through, but I cannot get past the mammoth fucking plot holes where characters just do a one-eighty because that fits the plot and where it is right now. Like, I need character development to match plot development. I can’t have the characters go, Well, I have to go from being really grumpy and taciturn to super emotionally fluent and giving, because that’s what, that’s what’s needed right now, and I’m like, I don’t believe this! This has lost me completely.

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: Cozy means – it’s like rom-com! It means many different things to many different people, and we’re all using the same word to describe something that we mean very differently. And this has been a problem for decades, right, ‘cause I used to go off about how contemporary ro- –

Amanda: Yeah, this is not new.

Sarah: This is not new! Contemporary romance could mean Debbie Macomber, or it could mean Megan Hart, and those are not the same thing.

Amanda: No.

[music]

Sarah: [Sings] Let’s all go to the midroll and have ourselves an ad!

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Sarah: And now, back to the show!

[music]

Sarah: Those are good, those are good, good hot takes. Okay.

Amanda: Thank you!

Sarah: My first, my second hot take, in addition to “transcends the genre” should be banned: book conference weekends, like the weekend book cons? Are going to be a massive opportunity for scammers, and differentiating yourself is going to get harder and harder, and so either these events will, will be one that’s really, really popular, but a lot of these won’t last very long, because consumers are not going to be able to tell the difference between a conference that is run by people who legitimately know how to do a gathering and conference that, who are like, Oh, I could make money inviting all these people, and I have a platform, so I can make it happen. This is like –

Amanda: They’re expensive –

Sarah: They’re expensive.

Amanda: – for a weekend.

Sarah: For a weekend, yes. And this is similar to the idea that an actor can host a show? Like, to be a host, you need a personality, and you are, if you are an actor that you don’t have your own personality, you’re used to playing a part on stage, getting up there and playing the part of yourself is very awkward and uncomfortable. I mean, think about how many times that has not worked, like, at the Oscars or the Emmys or whatever. So, for example, we have Readers Take Denver, which was a massive disaster –

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: – because, I think it was the second or third year last year. It was not the first one, I know, and they had Rebecca Yarros come, and they were not prepared for the number of people that were going to show up to meet Rebecca Yarros, and it just got worse and worse and worse, in terms of security, in terms of boundaries, in terms of keeping the attendees safe, in terms of just managing the amount of stuff, because that, that shit is really hard! There’s a reason why the loss of Romantic Times was such a big loss, because that, it might have been absolutely off the rails, but it was run by someone who knew what they were doing most of the time.

There was A Million Lives Book Festival in Baltimore, and it, according to people on Threads, it was really not good. This is such a pretentious question, and I apologize in advance, but were you around for DashCon on Tumblr? Are you fami- –

Amanda: Yes.

Sarah: Okay, so you’re familiar with DashCon. This is not before you arrived on the internet, ‘cause I have no concept of time.

Amanda: You can get time in the ball pit!

Sarah: Yes, time in the ball pit!

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: Which is literally the only thing in the room. It’s like a big ballroom with just a ball pit. Time in the ball pit!

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: So you don’t want your weekend of romance reading to be like DashCon –

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: – which could have been great, but was not. And according to people on Threads, the Million Lives Book Festival in Baltimore was really not great. There was a ball, but it was an empty room, and someone had to borrow a Bluetooth speaker from security and put it on a chair to have music? There was no food. There was no bar. There were not a lot of reader attendees, and those who did attendee, attend, they didn’t get swag bags and were talking about it? Like, that’s one of the things you draw people in to a weekend, right? You’re going to get swag; you’re going to meet an author, get your book signed; you’re going to meet other readers.

Amanda: Related to this, earlier this year, maybe late last year, there was, like, people were doing, like, Bridgerton Regency ball experiences, and there was that one, I think it was in Michigan, that –

Sarah: And it was –

Amanda: – people got scammed –

Sarah: – terrible!

Amanda: – out of their money? Yeah. And they, like, couldn’t get refunds, and there was, like, barely any food, and –

Sarah: Here’s the thing: I would be really good at running these weekends. I have done event planning –

Amanda: You just don’t want to! [Laughs]

Sarah: I have worked at an overnight camp. I have, I have logistically planned my way through utter chaotic events all of the time. I don’t want to, because being the person with the clipboard is, like, the least fun job, but, like, I look at this and I’m like, Oh, I can tell this has not been run by somebody who is, has run this event before.

At the Million Lives weekend, they had the same problem as Readers Take Denver, where books that were meant to be for sale were given away for free, which means that the authors who brought those books are out more money, in addition to having attended the conference. Allegedly there were no bad-, no badges because the organizers said the badges got damaged? Okay, go on down to Office Depot or Staples or whatever the nearest store is – even CVS. Get yourself some written name badges and a couple of Sharpies. Problem solved.

Amanda: Yeah…

Sarah: Go get some stickers and be like – can you imagine the art project of Oh shit, all of our badges got damaged? Okay, somebody’s going to go to CVS, and somebody’s going to go to a store – you’re going to get Sharpies, you’re going to get little sticky labels, and you’re going to get stickers, and you’re going to have a badge decoration party for people. Like, I’m so sorry; this sucks. Please decorate your badge; let’s decorate each others’ badges. Hell, get extra badges and then have authors sign them, and then that, you know, that’s your – like, there’s a way to solve this instead of no badges, just random – just, just be a rando is not the answer to something that is aimed at readers, right?

So I think, given, given that this is a thing that seems to be happening over and over, book con weekends are going to become a massive opportunity for scammers, and it’s going to be really hard to tell which one is the one you want to go to.

Amanda: Yikes.

Sarah: Yeah. That sucks. Because we are all so – allegedly; not me – desperate to get together in, in person and meet other readers.

Amanda: No. No, I’m not. [Laughs]

Sarah: I am the most Gen X person that has ever existed, and a group of people is called a No, Thank You.

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: Also, just before I go on – [laughs] – can we talk about that thing I sent you on Instagram where you wear your book?

Amanda: So stupid. That made me so angry? Like –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Amanda: Like, it –

Sarah: I’m fascinated by this! Okay –

Amanda: I –

Sarah: – so describe what it is. I’ll, I’ll –

Amanda: …It was an overreaction, but the minute I saw it, I’m like, This is the fucking stupidest thing I’ve ever seen.

Sarah: And people are so into it. So into it.

Amanda: Imagine a bookmark, right, like a cloth bookmark, or a sturdy bookmark, whatever. And then on the ends is a chain.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Amanda: Like a purse chain.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Amanda: Imagine that.

Sarah: Strike one, ‘cause I don’t like purses with chains, but anyway.

Amanda: And then what you do is you put your book – imagine like a little tent, making a little tent with your book, and you slip the bookmark into it. So the book –

Sarah: Where you have stopped reading. So it’s better to be in the middle of the book all the time. [Laughs]

Amanda: And so you can then put the chain over your shoulder while your book is dangling from the inserted bookmark.

Sarah: On the chain next to your hip, in the shape of a square bag, but it’s actually your book.

Amanda: Yes.

Sarah: This is so exciting to me, because it is visual confirmation of something that I have been talking about for like six months. I feel like I manifested this, and I agree: I don’t understand this at all. I understand that people dig it; I’m excited that it exists; I’m excited that people are excited about it; this is not for me. This is –

Amanda: Like, unless you’re going to, like, a girls’ brunch, if I took that to the streets of Boston and I’m walking around, taking the subway, doing whatever, that book is going to be cur-, like, just coated in dust and grime, if I don’t fucking drop it on the street. Like –

Sarah: And in a puddle. If you drop it, it will be in a puddle, no exceptions.

Amanda: I – and then, plus, I need another purse to actually carry my belongings.

Sarah: Yes, that’s the part that’s incredible! [Laughs] There’s a tiny, tiny, tiny, teensy-tiny little change purse attached to it. I don’t even think it’s big enough for a phone!

Amanda: Like, where do I, where am I going to put my tampons? Where am I going to put my sunglasses? Where am I going to put my wallet? I need another bag.

Sarah: I’m a walking Duane Reade pharmacy; I have a whole pillbox full of over-the-counter medications because everybody in my orbit gets allergies and headaches, so I’m just like, Here you go! Yeah.

Amanda: And I get so frustrated, the more shit that is on me. Like –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Amanda: – I don’t know if anyone listening has watched I Think You Should Leave, which is a sketch show on Netflix, and one of the sketches is this guy wearing full prosthetics, and he’s supposed to be hosting, like, a candid camera show, but he’s having an anxiety freak-out ‘cause he has too many prosthetics on? And he’s just like, I just have too much shit on me, and he’s just freaking out in his prosthetics. And the more stuff I have with me, just, the more my mood goes sour. If I have to carry something in one hand and hold an umbrella, just call it a day. I don’t want to be outside; I don’t want to be hand-, like, I just want one bag to pull all my stuff in, and if I’m already bringing a bag, I’m putting my fucking book in there.

Sarah: That’s the thing. Like, if you want to have a bag that’s reader or book-sized, I mean, obviously. What’s wild to me is that this turns your book into a visual facsimile of a purse that would itself, if it were slightly larger, be large enough to put your book in the bag, but the book in the bag is not what we’re talking about here. The book is an accessory. You are wearing your book as an accessory. I feel like this is the pinnacle of everything I’ve been talking about with books being accessories. This is the ultimate ex- – I’m so excited about this? Like, I –

Amanda: But the length, the length is, like –

Sarah: Vindication!

Amanda: – right at your hip.

Sarah: Yeah!

Amanda: It’s right at your hip or a little lower, so that thing’s going to be fucking bouncing around while you’re walking.

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Amanda: I – oh, the second Sarah sent it to me I was like, Sarah, I hate this so much.

Sarah: [Laughs] I could, I could feel –

Amanda: I hated it.

Sarah: I could feel Amanda’s blood pressure rising from five states away. Yeah, pretty much.

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: I think this is so interesting, because it is utterly not for me, but it is visually representing something that I have been talking for, what, six months now? That books are becoming accessories, that the decorative object of a book and how it looks and how it presents and how it matches a reader’s aesthetic is more important than what the book actually says inside?

Amanda: Yeah, ‘cause it’s like, Look at what I’m reading!

Sarah: It’s Look at what I’m reading, and then, like, are you going to do that to your FairyLoot limited edition spredges book? Probably not, but maybe! I mean, and if you have a rare book, are people just going to, like, book-lift? Like, run up, grab the book, and go?

Amanda: Yoink.

Sarah: Yeah! Like, it’s so interesting to me because it is not useful! Like, I carry a bag because – [laughs] – I need shit with me that doesn’t fit in my little itty-bitty woman pockets, and also, I want to put my book in the bag, because I don’t want anything to happen to it. Like, no, absolutely not! I am completely delighted by this, though, because it is proving what I’ve been saying, that books are becoming an accessory and must match your aesthetic, and that is so interesting to me. Like, even, even Jennifer Weiner got spredges.

Amanda: No!

Sarah: Yeah! Did you, did you get a copy of this?

Amanda: I don’t know. I haven’t opened my mail in a long time…

Sarah: What the hell does that look like? What does that even look like? Is it quite a tower at this point?

Amanda: Yep. We were, like, working on unpacking – Brian was working on unpacking the living room a little bit more today, and it was like, Oh yeah, I put all your book mail in a pile on the couch. Kind of just, like, go through it.

Sarah: It’s now its own chair. Have they, like, built a chair out of the book mail so you can sit? I mean, all those padded mailers could be really comfy.

Amanda: But, like, I opened a mailer the other day, and apparently at some point I bought Laura Kinsale’s Shadowheart, and I don’t remember when I purchased this. But I now own it. [Laughs]

Sarah: I mean, it’s a good book, but when did we talk about that? When would you have bought that?

Amanda: I don’t know! I went back and I looked in my email, and I think I bought it back in January, and I’m like, Why did I buy this?

Sarah: Yeah! That is a weird one!

Amanda: I don’t know why, but I did!

Sarah: Yeah!

Amanda: So I – who knows what I’m buying these days? [Laughs] Jesus!

Sarah: Surprise!

Amanda: And the, the jacket copy does the classic –

Sarah: Ooh, two percent.

Amanda: – Dear Readers.

Sarah: Ohhh, I remember that! When the author would write a letter to the reader, and then sometimes the ARCs had a letter to the reviewer from the editor.

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: That was a wild time.

Amanda: Get Caught Reading at Sea. Details on the back. I don’t know what that means.

Sarah: We saw that! That was one of the cruises! Yeah, Get Caught Reading at Sea; that was one of the cruises that’s a, yep, that we saw those in, in RT! That was one of the ones that was advertised in RT; you’d go on a readers cruise, which, by the way, I could also plan very well, but I don’t want to plan things because the problem is if you plan things? While they’re happening, you’re managing things.

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: I love how it always comes back to cruises with us.

Amanda: Yeah, but I don’t know what was going through Amanda’s brain, but apparently she bought a used copy of Shadowheart.

Sarah: Are you going to read it?

Amanda: Probably at some point. [Laughs]

Sarah: Well, there you go!

Amanda: It was just a weird surprise. I’m like, this isn’t like a publisher copy. I bought this.

Sarah: You bought that, yeah. It could be your purse book! It can be – I’m going to buy you, I’m going to buy you that chain bookmark thing so you can –

Amanda: Sarah, do not –

Sarah: – you can –

Amanda: – waste your…

Sarah: – wear your copy of Shadowheart.

Amanda: I’m going to turn it into a cat toy –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Amanda: – and let the cats have it.

Sarah: [Still laughing] I am so sending you one! If this product works – I think a, a woman invented it – if it works, if it sells, hell yeah, that’s awesome. Way to go! I don’t want one, and I understand why it is, and I’m delighted that it exists. Like, I am just delighted by the existence of this thing.

Are you reading anything you want to talk about?

Amanda: I’m reading, I’m still reading the, The Irresistible Urge to Fall for Your Enemy, but I’m also playing, I call it my battle boyfriends game?

Sarah: Battle boyfriends game!

Amanda: It’s, it’s called Love and Deepspace is what it is, and you –

Sarah: Amanda bait!

Amanda: I know – you unlock six hunky love interests. SPOILERS: One’s like a merman; one is probably a million years old – I don’t know how old he is, but just weird – and then one is like a hunky doctor that treats your heart condition but has ice powers. It’s weird. But, like, you collect, you collect the, the hunky Pokémon cards for each love interest, and then you –

Sarah: [Laughs] You collect hunky Pokémon cards. Okay!

Amanda: – and then you use them to battle monsters – [laughs] – so I call it my battle boyfriends game. You log in or whatever, and I was like, Brian, I’ve got to go do my boyfriend chores!

Sarah: Do all of your boyfriends chores.

Amanda: I’ve got to do my boyfriend chores. [Laughs]

Sarah: I am currently listening – if you’ve ever wondered if celebrities going on other people’s podcasts work, if it’s a really good interview, yes, it does? Bruce Vilanch, who was, like, on Hollywood Squares forever?

Amanda: Oh my God!

Sarah: Have you not heard that name in a while?

Amanda: I forgot he existed! Yes!

Sarah: Oh, wait until you hear about this! So Bruce Vilanch, who was, like, the queer, bawdy square on Hollywood Squares for a long time.

Amanda: Had the, the haircut, like the long blond hair and the big old glasses?

Sarah: He has a Prince Valiant haircut, yes. He has written a book. It’s a memoir. It’s called It Seemed Like a Bad Idea at the Time: The Worst TV Shows in History and Other Things I Wrote. So Bruce Vilanch has been writing for the Oscars for decades, the Emmys, like all of these award shows, when there’s jokes and patter, he is usually one of the people writing them, unless it’s like Conan is hosting; Conan has his own team. So he wrote this memoir about the worst television in history, including the Oscars where Snow White dances with Rob Lowe, and the Star Wars Christmas Special [Star Wars Holiday Special], which is apparently like the worst thing that’s ever been on television ever?

Amanda: I’ve heard bad things about it.

Sarah: Yeah, it’s, like, terrible-terrible. So he’s just going to tell you the behind-the-scenes of how this happened. This could not be more Sarah-bait if it tried, but it’s the right balance between super dishy behind-the-scenes gossip and This is how television used to be; this is the history of television in my lifetime, so it’s like, I get to, I get to hear about the changes that happened while I was watching TV. Not, like, straight all the time, but, like, over the course of my life?

Like, for example, in the ‘60s and ‘70s there used to be all these variety shows? Like, Cher had one, and, you know, there would be variety shows with singing and dancing and skits and whatever, and those kind of went away as celebrity became something were you could just be one thing. You didn’t have to be Bob Hope and sing and dance and act and everything; you could just do one thing really well? But those variety shows are now the singing and dancing competition reality shows.

Amanda: Oh!

Sarah: Those have taken the place of variety shows in the ‘60s and ‘70s, and some of the ‘80s, too. I remember seeing some, and I’m like, Oh, yeah! Yeah, you’re totally right! I had no idea! I’m having the best time – and also he reads it, so, like, the, the delivery, the delivery is great, the voice is fun, but Bruce Vilanch was on like two different podcasts that I listen to, and I was like, I’m really enjoying this! I might need to listen to the book. There was no hold; it was all mine; it’s great; I love it. It’s fantastic. I’m enjoying it.

And then I’m, I always listen and read? I am currently reading The Librarians by Sherry Thomas. Comes out in September, but I wanted to try it.

Amanda: …What is that?

Sarah: Sherry Thomas has written a contemporary mystery about librarians. It is a very slow start. It’s a very slow start, but I love Sherry’s writing, so I’m like, I’m committed. I’m in.

Amanda: Ooh, the cover’s good!

Sarah: The cover looks like all, okay, all mystery covers like this either look like the Osman books, they either look like The Thursday Murder Club, or they look like The Maid.

Amanda: Yeah, this is very –

Sarah: The Maid.

Amanda: – giving like noir vibes…

Sarah: Yes, it’s very The Maid. I have a post coming up – mostly I haven’t done it because it’s just a lot of graphic resizing? I have a post coming up that I’m going to do, I think this month or in June – like I said, it’s a lot of formatting. Like, the stuff, Stuff We Like posts take me a long time, ‘cause it’s a lot of formatting.

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: So I have a folder called Everything Is Coming Up Osman Style, where every time I went to Goodreads, I would take pictures of covers and, and save them if they looked just the Thursday morning, murder, Thursday Murder Club. I currently have ten, twenty, thirty – hang on –

Amanda: Oh my God.

Sarah: – forty, probably fifty covers in this folder, and every single one of them is an Osman-style cover. Like, all of them. They all look like The Thursday Murder Club. It’s kind of incredible.

Amanda: The adaptation on Netflix is coming out in August.

Sarah: Listen, I’m going to be so broke? I have to sign up for Apple+ because of Murderbot. Have you seen the previews? Oh my God, it’s so good!

Amanda: I know, and I was – this happens every time, where we get rid of a streaming service ‘cause we’re like, Oh, we’re not using it anymore, and then something then comes out on the streaming service that we just canceled.

Sarah: Do you have a .edu email address?

Amanda: I do!

Sarah: If you use your .edu email address, you may be able to sign up for Apple Music for Students, and that comes with free Apple+.

Amanda: Ohhh!

Sarah: Ask me how I know!

[Laughter]

Sarah: ‘Cause my child’s got –

Amanda: You have one .edu cooking!

Sarah: You hold onto that .edu as long as you can, man. You just grip it with your tight dead hands, and it gives you discounts on streaming services! Like, we got Peacock – whatever the Peacock thing was where you had to have it to watch the Olympics? That was –

Amanda: Oh.

Sarah: – that was my older child’s student email address, thanks very much. And then, and then he goes back to school, and in his apartment his friends are like, You have every streaming service! He’s like, Well, technically they are mine, but my family uses them because I get them cheaper. And the only exception is Netflix. We keep, Netflix is being very finicky about it.

So we’re going to have to re-sign up for Apple+. Then I’m going to be watching The Thursday Murder Club adaptation. I feel like I’m being challenged to watch more TV, which is not my general position on things?

Amanda: Yeah, it’s not mine either.

Sarah: But oh my God, the Murderbot previews look so good?

Amanda: They look good! I mean, better than, I think, a lot of people were expecting after the, the casting announcement.

Sarah: Yeah, I was expecting to be cringe?

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: I was expecting it to make me just go, Oh no, this is, like –

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: – you know, local theater version? Like, it wasn’t going to be good. I was so wrong. It – the local theater version is actually going to be the fact that they’re actually making a show out of The Rise and Fall of Sanctuary Moon?

Amanda: I know!

Sarah: The biggest, campiest, most weird thing I’ve ever seen – I’m so excited about this? I am not going to be normal about it at all.

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: Not at all. No, not going to be normal.

[outro]

Sarah: And that brings us to the end of this week’s episode. Thank you to Amanda for all of her hot takes and for listening to mine. If you are thinking, Oh, that was fun, and you’d like more, the podcast Patreon bonus episode will feature more hot takes that we thought should probably go behind a paywall. Although at the end Amanda was like, that wasn’t that spicy, so maybe I’m wrong.

You can find all of the links that we talked about and all the books we mentioned in the show notes. I know you’re curious; there are many.

As always, I end with a terrible joke. This week is no exception; I would never leave you hanging. This is terrible, and I’m delighted to share it with you:

What’s one difference between cats and dogs, other than, you know, genus and species and installed software?

What’s one difference between cats and dogs?

Dogs can’t operate MRI machines, but cats can.

CAT scan! [Laughs] Terrible. I know you’re delighted. I’m delighted. You’re going to tell many people, and they’re all going to groan, right? That’s the plan? I’m pleased to be a part of it.

On behalf of everyone here, we wish you the very best of reading. Have a wonderful weekend, and we will see you back here next week for part two of the ads and features with HelenKay. But until then, in the words of my favorite retired podcast Friendshipping, thank you for listening; you’re welcome for talking.

[end of music]