667. RT Rewind – February 2015 Ads & Features Part I

[music]

Sarah Wendell: Hello there! Welcome to episode number 667 of Smart Podcast, Trashy Books. I’m Sarah Wendell, and with me once again is HelenKay Dimon. We are going back in the time machine with HelenKay and Darby Kane, who thankfully are one person, so we’ve got extra room in the cabin for snacks. We are headed back in time to February 2015 for part one of two of the ads and features. Yes, by listener suggestion, this is another long one, but I’ve divided it up into two, so this week we will be having part one of the ads and features, and on May 30th we will have part two. The reason this is a part two and a part one is because, once again, HelenKay’s really interesting.

And we’re going to talk about writing, about things that she’s noticed in the genre, authors that she’s excited to come back, but we also talk a lot about romance history and RWA history. HelenKay was past president immediately before, you know, everything, and she talks at length about what specifically was lost when RWA’s position in the community was destroyed.

I love this whole month of episodes, and I really appreciate all of the feedback telling me how much you have enjoyed them too. I am really gratified to hear that.

I also want to note that this episode has a midroll spot for another podcast you might be interested in listening to. Thank you to the Patreon community for helping me with my spot, which will be airing on The Historical Romance Sampler podcast. And if you who are listening have a podcast about romance or books or anything and you’d like to exchange spots, email me: Sarah@smartbitchestrashybooks.com.

Thank you, as always, to our Patreon community, not just for helping me with the ad, but also helping me procure more issues of Romantic Times and also making sure that every episode has a handcrafted transcript by garlicknitter. Hi, garlicknitter! [Hi! – gk] Your support means a lot. If you’d like to join the Patreon, it would be awesome if you did. The benefits include a wonderful Discord and full PDF scans of every issue. But if Patreon support is not in the cards right now, may I humbly ask that you leave a review for the show wherever you listen. Or just tell people. Just tell all the people. Most of all, thank you for listening. I am really happy that you are here.

Support for this episode comes from A Goddess Unraveled by Morgan Rider. Experience this retelling of Greek mythology – there is Hades, but the female main character isn’t Persephone. Lexi’s a new college grad who suddenly discovers she’s a demigoddess, which is not a field she majored in. When she arrives home for a weekend-long celebration in honor of her college graduation, Lexi is surprised by the number of eligible bachelors who are asking for her attention. And she doesn’t have a lot of experience with the opposite sex, but these are loudmouth, arrogant boys, and she’s not impressed. Enter the mysterious Luke Carrington. She is instantly drawn to him, but despite his charm and intelligence, her parents and her godfather warn her to stay away from him. Lexi will not be deterred. When Lexi learns that her life has been one long lie and the people claiming to be her family aren’t who they say they are, she turns to Luke for solace. He seems to understand her and is the only one who seems to be telling the truth, and it doesn’t take long for him to earn her trust and her heart. Suddenly Lexi is willing to follow him anywhere to keep him close, even into the underworld. Originally published on Wattpad with +28M reads (whoa) A Goddess Unraveled by Morgan Rider is now available in print from W by Wattpad Books wherever books are sold! You can find A Goddess Unraveled by Morgan Rider in your favorite bookstore, or look for the link in the show notes.

All right, we’ve got plenty of extra seats; we’ve got snacks; HelenKay is here. There’s room for you in the time machine, so let’s go back to February 2015! On with the podcast.

[music]

Sarah: So would you like to talk about the magazine a little bit?

HelenKay Dimon: [Laughs] I know!

Sarah: Like, I’m not complaining at all, except that I feel guilty for taking up so much of your time. But I’m having the best frigging time right now.

HelenKay: [Laughs] It’s just so funny. I’m like, Yeah, let’s talk about everything but the magazine!

Sarah: Eh, screw it. That’s the thing, though: the magazine is a capsule, cap-, capsule of a specific part of history, gives you this huge place to –

HelenKay: It really does.

Sarah: – to talk about all of the things that are happening in this time, this month, when this genre is popular. Like, if you look at the top of the magazine on the cover, all of the genres – ‘cause they change it to RT Book Reviews, ‘cause they started talking about more than one genre, so at the top it says Romance | Mystery | Paranormal | Erotica | Mainstream | Inspirational | Urban Fantasy and | Science Fiction.

HelenKay: Yes.

Sarah: And I remember science fiction authors talking to me on Bluesky and saying, That was really the only place we would get reviewed if we were not picked up by any other major outlet. There wasn’t a place as big as RT that was talking about science fiction and fantasy, and so there, like, I remember John Scalzi was at, at RT one year, and he, and he still talks about how very cool it was!

HelenKay: That is, that is – ‘cause you’re right; I forgot they, like, switched the whole name of the –

Sarah: Oh, a couple of times. It’s ridiculous.

HelenKay: – of, of the magazine. ‘Cause I remember all of a sudden mystery folks started showing up, and then James Patterson was there one year.

Sarah: Right? And you’re like, What the hell? Yeah! This –

HelenKay: [Laughs]

Sarah: Kathryn Falk is a, a, a genius! Like, I –

HelenKay: Yeah.

Sarah: – I cannot, I cannot give this person any less credit than all of the credit, because they are a genius. They, they developed a cult of personality around themselves; they made it into a magazine; and Amanda pointed this out early on, and she’s so right: the convention was the magazine come to life!

HelenKay: Yeah, it was, yeah.

Sarah: They took the magazine and made it into a convention! – which is really hard to do – and then started opening it up to other genre fiction because there was a need there. Like, there was –

HelenKay: Yeah.

Sarah: – there was a vacuum in book discussion.

HelenKay: That’s amazing.

Sarah: Like, genius!

HelenKay: It was, it wasn’t until I saw this cover that I – and I think I told you – until I looked through this edition where I realized how big they made the bubble. Like, like –

Sarah: Yes!

HelenKay: Right? Like, how, like, many different things were in there that I just didn’t even realize at that point were being written and –

Sarah: Yeah!

HelenKay: – there was room for, so it’s amazing!

Sarah: And I forget when some of these books came out. Like, when we did the reviews episode I’m like, This was Victoria Aveyard’s debut! Holy crap!

HelenKay: [Laughs] Yeah.

Sarah: Look what’s happened since then!

HelenKay: I know.

Sarah: And what’s weird is the older issues, like the ‘90s and the ‘80s especially, they’re like fandom magazines where authors are buying out half pages to be like, Hey, I’m so-and-so, and I’m here, and here’s my new book, and then they’d be like, I love to hear from readers. Send mail to 485 Saddle Hill Road –

HelenKay: Oh –

Sarah: – Michigan –

HelenKay: – wow.

Sarah: – blah-blah-blah, and I’d be like, Okay, hang on, I’m going to Zillow that! Let’s –

HelenKay: [Laughs]

Sarah: People putting their home addresses for reader mail. Like, it was like a yearbook. Amanda’s like –

HelenKay: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – Some  of these issues give big yearbook energy, like when your parents would buy a little ad in the back.

HelenKay: Yeah.

Sarah: It was that for authors: little picture, little book, and then that evolved into I’m going to write an article for RT that is partially about my book and my thing, but I’m going to interview other authors – and those pieces are really good!

HelenKay: Wow.

Sarah: Because – you know this – authors talk to other authors in a very specific way about writing –

HelenKay: Yeah.

Sarah: – that’s really interesting –

HelenKay: Yeah.

Sarah: – but also reveals a lot to readers, so it was this weird intersection of writers’ yearbook and readers’ fan magazine in one.

HelenKay: That’s incredible, actually.

Sarah: It’s, it – genius! Terrifying.

HelenKay: Incredible.

Sarah: Terrifying genius.

I also heard – I did a bonus episode about, like, the press coverage of Kathryn Falk and things that have been reported about her in the press, and I did that, put that behind a paywall, ‘cause she is still alive, bless her.

HelenKay: [Laughs]

Sarah: She had an emotional support chicken?

HelenKay: Yes. [Laughs] I’d forgotten to write when you said that! Yes. Don’t you, what do you have? How do you get through the day?

Sarah: I have emotional support elderly animals that puke on my carpet; that’s what I have.

HelenKay: There you go.

Sarah: Yeah –

HelenKay: There you go.

Sarah: – I have an elderly dog –

HelenKay: Same thing.

Sarah: – and two elderly cats. Like, I have hairballs! I have tumbleweeds full of hair. That’s what I have for emotional support.

HelenKay: [Laughs]

Sarah: No, I, there was an emoti-, it might have been an emotional support rooster, and somebody told me that people who were staying next door to the room were like, What do we do? This rooster will not shut up.

HelenKay: Wait, she brought it to –

Sarah: Yes! It was riding around the convention on her shoulder! I believe it might have been her father, and her father had dementia, and that was his, it was something that was very important to him to have around, but she walked around the convention with a chicken on her shoulder. Incredible!

So I want to ask you about this cover real quick.

HelenKay: Yeah.

Sarah: ‘Cause we’re supposed to be talking about it, and we, you know, an hour and twenty minutes ago.

HelenKay: [Laughs]

Sarah: Obviously you, you filled in last minute, maybe somebody got dropped, you paid the difference for the cover.

HelenKay: Yeah.

Sarah: I think it’s very effective to put the cover of the book on the cover of the magazine. Sometimes it’s a picture of the author, but I think it’s much more effective –

HelenKay: Yeah.

Sarah: – to have the book cover, ‘cause you’re reinforcing it. You’re creating familiarity by everyone who glances at the cover of this magazine.

HelenKay: I don’t understand why you would do anything other than the book cover? I mean, no, no offense, like, my face is not going to sell the book.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

HelenKay: It’s – right? Like, you can’t go on Amazon or into an independent bookstore or wherever you are and look for my face.

[Laughter]

HelenKay: …please don’t! Please – if you’re doing that, please stop it. Right? Like, why wouldn’t you use the cover? It’s the best, it’s, it’s the best ad, and what’s the whole thing, like, people need to see it, what is it, seven times –

Sarah: Yes.

HelenKay: – before it, like, registers in their brain?

Sarah: Yes.

HelenKay: There are books that I have bought because I have seen the cover so many times on Instagram I’m like, I, I don’t even know what it’s about anymore, and I’m just, I gives!

Sarah: Yeah!

HelenKay: I’m going to, I’m going to go ahead and –

Sarah: I’m going to check it out! And I think using the cover, if the circulation reports from Romantic Times were true, at one point they had over ten thousand subscribers.

HelenKay: Wow.

Sarah: This was a big magazine. According to them – you know, grain of salt – why wouldn’t you want to put the book cover in front of all of those people, plus booksellers, plus librarians, plus – I mean, this used to, do you remember when Barnes and Noble and Borders had, like, that magazine section that was –

HelenKay: Yeah.

Sarah: – just miles long? This was in there! You’d just, like –

HelenKay: Yes.

Sarah: – walk past, but this magazine is for me! We got the magazines for the horse girls and the gun guys –

HelenKay: [Laughs]

Sarah: – and the douchebros, and here’s my magazine. Like, this, this was seen by a lot of people!

HelenKay: Yeah, I can’t even, I, I really, I’m like, I’m stumped that anybody would do anything other –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

HelenKay: – than a cover?

Sarah: Well, I think you made the right choice ten-plus years ago, so good job!

HelenKay: Thank you! I, I wish I had had some say on the font of my name on this cover, ‘cause –

Sarah: It is –

HelenKay: – what is that? It’s like elementary school kids.

Sarah: It’s very, it’s very, like –

HelenKay: Chunky.

Sarah: Yes.

HelenKay: We’re going to use the word chunky.

Sarah: It’s very child’s birthday party. It’s, it’s Aidan Kayden Braden’s first birthday, that’s what that font is.

HelenKay: And it doesn’t match any other font –

Sarah: Oh no!

HelenKay: – anywhere on this cover.

Sarah: No!

HelenKay: I have no idea why – and the book is, you know, is not, like, a laughing good time, so – [laughs] – I’m a little confused!

Sarah: And honestly, I know that, like, my worst design – I don’t even want to call it a trait, and it’s certainly not a skill – is that I love lots of fonts. I just, I think it’s really neat –

HelenKay: [Laughs]

Sarah: – to put a sans serif and then a serif with italics; I think that’s really fun. People are like, That’s too many frigging fonts, Sarah. What are you doing? This is a lot of fonts!

HelenKay: It’s a lot of fonts.

Sarah: There’s a lot of fonts here. I’m surprised they didn’t try to duplicate the broken-up text of Playing Dirty into your –

HelenKay: Yeah.

Sarah: – into your name to reinforce, like – but okay!

HelenKay: I know! I know!

Sarah: Oh, congrats on the cover, yo!

HelenKay: Thank you! Thank you!

Sarah: Shall we see what’s inside?

HelenKay: Let’s see what’s inside.

Sarah: So you wanted to stop at PDF page 3, which is good because I also wanted to stop on this page. It’s a full-page ad for Kensington. Do you remember? This is peak when all of the publishers had –

HelenKay: Yeah.

Sarah: – blogs, and they were starting social media accounts, and they were really trying to brand themselves more assertively?

HelenKay: Yes.

Sarah: And this is part of that. They all had full-page ads in the magazine.

HelenKay: Well, and this ad, I mean, this has a look, because at this time Kensington is doing Brava, which is hotter romance; they’re doing Aphrodisia, which is erotic –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

HelenKay: – and these are all, like, Sandpiper Island, Wishing Lake, Texas Wildflower. So we have flowers –

Sarah: Huckleberry Spring! [Laughs]

HelenKay: – and we have, we have Adirondack chairs; we have a whole lot of very specific-looking –

Sarah: Yes.

HelenKay: – kind of – like, none of them, I mean, no off-, I’m sure all of these are fantastic books, so – but you look at it now, and I’m like, nothing jumps out at, on the page –

Sarah: It’s all –

HelenKay: – other than the fact that there’s an Amish lady, and you know how I feel about Amish romance.

Sarah: She’s got a red, she’s got a red wheel-, not wheelbarrow, watering can.

HelenKay: Yeah. No.

Sarah: The only, like, bright color on here. Everything is blue and purple and violet –

HelenKay: Yeah.

Sarah: – and there’s tons of Adirondack chairs and flowers and dunes, and then at the bottom – this is after Kensington had bought Lyrical Press?

HelenKay: Yeah.

Sarah: So at the bottom there’s two Lyrical eBook exclusives. One of them is Snowed In by Sarah Title –

HelenKay: Mm.

Sarah: – but, you know, you think, Oh, snowed in. Is this a mystery? Is this a thriller? No, a Southern Comfort novella.

HelenKay: Yeah, I –

Sarah: Everything here is cozy and small-town and Adirondack chair porn. This was such a very specific time in contemporary.

HelenKay: Very. Very.

Sarah: This is peak women’s fiction/contemporary romance being very blend-y.

HelenKay: Yeah.

Sarah: Very, very blend-y.

HelenKay: Has, has a look. And today it’s a look that I don’t think it gets you anywhere.

Sarah: No!

HelenKay: Like, I, I can’t imagine having all these Adirondack chairs and all these flowers in this way.

Sarah: Yes.

HelenKay: I just can’t.

Sarah: The one Adirondack chair cover that I think would work today is an old cover – it’s from 2009 – called One Reckless Summer by Toni Blake –

HelenKay: Mm! Mm-hmm!

Sarah: – and it’s an Adirondack chair on the end of a dock in front of a lake, but there’s a bikini top draped over the arm.

HelenKay: That would work.

Sarah: So it’s just a little spicy, and so you’re – oh, it might even be the whole bathing suit – so it, it, it looks like it’s this tranquil, beautiful, sort of small-town, idyllic, low-conflict thing, and it’s like, nope! There’s a whole-ass bathing suit; somebody’s naked.

HelenKay: ‘Cause it raises a question, right?

Sarah: Eh?

HelenKay: It doesn’t just say, This is, it’s something that could be on your grandmother’s wall in her house; it, there’s something about it that’s intriguing, and there isn’t a whole lot that’s intriguing about –

Sarah: No.

HelenKay: – any of the covers here.

Sarah: And it’s weird, because this was also a big time when there weren’t any people on the covers. Now contemporary romance is all flat illustrations –

HelenKay: Yeah.

Sarah: – sometimes they don’t even have any faces. This is, this is all tourism board images.

HelenKay: [Laughs] It really is! It really is.

Sarah: And it’s weird to see – it, it’s so funny to me, because I don’t necessarily recognize the changes in the way the book, the books look? Till I look back ten, fifteen, twenty years.

HelenKay: Yeah.

Sarah: I’m like, Oh, that would not work right now!

HelenKay: Yeah. Me too.

Sarah: That was of its time.

HelenKay: Me too. Me too.

Sarah: Yeah, Jane from Dear Author used to call this Adirondack chair porn –

HelenKay: Yeah.

Sarah: – ‘cause there was just so much.

HelenKay: There was a while where that is, like, all that was on covers.

Sarah: Oh yeah.

HelenKay: I, I mean, it was, it was weird.

Sarah: And you wanted to point out on PDF page 5, a grievous insult!

HelenKay: Oh, the fact that I am on the cover and I’m not a Top Pick.

Sarah: Un- –

HelenKay: Who do I talk to about that?

Sarah: – fortunate. I definitely think you need to write a letter to the manager right there.

HelenKay: I’m really, I’m like, What?! So that blows out of the water the theory that if you were on the cover, you bought your way into the highest…

Sarah: No, no, I’ve seen it a bunch of times, where the cover book gets four stars.

HelenKay: Yeah, yeah.

Sarah: One time it got even as low as three, and I was like, Damn! What do you, what are you all doing?

HelenKay: Daaamn!

Sarah: Right?

HelenKay: No.

Sarah: Yikies!

HelenKay: So I kept reading, even after I saw that, because –

Sarah: [Snorts]

HelenKay: – that is an outrage.

Sarah: Well, I appreci- – [laughs] – I appreciate…

HelenKay: An outrage.

Sarah: And it’s funny; if you look at these Top Picks, it’s Jaye Wells, and Kristin Hannah’s The Nightingale is a Top Pick. I mean, they got that right.

HelenKay: Yeah.

Sarah: Karen Rose is here. Some of these people are still writing, and some of this is very specific to the time.

HelenKay: I just, I love seeing that people still write. I mean, I just, if, if you’re not an author you don’t know how hard it is – [laughs] – to still be doing this work! I mean –

Sarah: Dude.

HelenKay: – it’s – right? Things like – I mean, think of people that ten, fifteen years ago that you loved reading, and you’re like, Hey, whatever happened to – I do that every single day. I’m like, Whatever happened to whatever?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

HelenKay: And sometimes they’ve changed names; sometimes they’ve changed genres. I’m all for all of it. But sometimes you’re just like, like, where they, where they just, like, I, I can’t do this one more second? And I get it.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

HelenKay: I get it. I totally get it.

Sarah: I get a lot of questions from, from readers: do you know what happened to Meredith Duran? Do you know if she’s still writing? I miss her books.

HelenKay: What did happen to Meredith Duran?

Sarah: She stopped writing. There was a – [sighs] – Reddit was very excited to see an update on her website, so there’s all this rumor that she might –

HelenKay: Oh!

Sarah: – be coming back, but I do not know the details. Oh, Laura Florand; I get a lot of questions about Laura Florand, and she said, I’m going to stop writing for a while. I don’t have a new contract.

HelenKay: Really.

Sarah: Yeah, she just said I’m – she’s a professor. Like, these are all, I think these are people who all had, like, legit day jobs, and once you reach a certain part of your career, it just takes up more time than you have –

HelenKay: Yeah.

Sarah: – to give to other things.

HelenKay: Yeah. Yeah. And it is, and, you know, writing’s a career that even when, you know, you think everything’s going fine, the, the rug can be pulled out. I mean, years and years and years ago – this is a story that, like, kind of keeps me sane sometimes – it’s, I was watching Jayne Ann Krentz, and she was talking at RWA or RT, one of them, and she was hitting the New York Times with Jayne Ann Krentz, she was hitting the New York Times with the, her Amanda Quick books –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

HelenKay: – and she talked about how she was switching her, Amanda Quick books were switching publishers because she put in a book that she wanted to write, and the editor was like, No. And I was like, Wait –

Sarah: Who says no?!

HelenKay: – what? Right? Like, who says no to Jayne Ann Krentz? Especially at that point in her career, and it was, she talked about how basically her sense was the editor was like, I don’t really love these books. Like, like, she had that sense; she had to, had to switch, and I’m like, If Jayne Ann Krentz at the top of her career, when she is hitting in the top ten on the New York Times, has an editor who’s like, Eh!

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

HelenKay: Nah. It can happen to any of us –

Sarah: Yes.

HelenKay: – at any time, and it doesn’t mean you suck. It means it can happen at any time, and I think a lot of times people, you know, whatever happens and you’re just like, Do I want to keep doing this –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

HelenKay: – ridiculous thing that has –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

HelenKay: – no guarantees anywhere?

Sarah: Nope.

HelenKay: Oooh!…

Sarah: That’s wild, too, because you –

HelenKay: That’s wild.

Sarah: – then you see authors who clearly have just been, have, and have said, I no longer am edited; they publish what I hand in, and that’s like, How? What? What?

HelenKay: I, I, every time I see that, my brain blinks out for a little bit, ‘cause I cannot imagine wanting that?

Sarah: Yeah!

HelenKay: Every book May Chen touches is a better book because May Chen touches it. And that doesn’t mean I agree with everything she says. Sometimes we’ll talk through things; I’m like, Why do you think that blah-blah-blah-blah-blah? But she sees what I can’t because for however many months I have been too deep in it to be able to say, Oh, that actually doesn’t work.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

HelenKay: How can I make it, how can I make it better? So I cannot imagine.

Sarah: Right?

HelenKay: I, I’m just flummoxed by it; I really am.

Sarah: Listen, I’m a blogger.

HelenKay: [Laughs]

Sarah: Every year I file an annual report with the state of Maryland, and every year I go, I am fucking still here. I am a blogger. So believe me when I say I understand that feeling of hoooly shit. [Laughs] I am still going!

HelenKay: Fuck off! [Laughs]

Sarah: How? How? How? Like, there was an era where literally every publisher had their own blog –

HelenKay: Yes.

Sarah: – advertised them in the magazine. Like, they were my competition.

HelenKay: I know.

Sarah: Still here.

HelenKay: One of the things I love about you is that I love anyone – this is, this is what I love when I go to Comic-Con, right?

Sarah: Yeah?

HelenKay: I love anyone who has a passion for something and has figured out, against all odds, how to make that a career.

Sarah: Oh –

HelenKay: Right? That’s, it’s an incredible –

Sarah: I’m as shocked as anyone –

HelenKay: – thing!

Sarah: – that that happened. [Laughs]

HelenKay: But it’s, but, I mean, it’s, it is a huge amount of hard work and determination, but the fact that you can do that is, like, a beautiful thing. I walk into Comic-Con; you know, it’s like, it’s here in San Diego, and you walk into this exhibit hall, and it’s just what feels like miles and miles and miles of artists and cosplayers and whatever, and I sit there and I think to myself every single time, These are the kids who got their asses kicked –

Sarah: Oh –

HelenKay: – in high school –

Sarah: – oh yeah.

HelenKay: – right? And now they do what they love –

Sarah: Yep!

HelenKay: – for a living, and how many of us can say that? Almost none –

Sarah: Nope.

HelenKay: – right? So the fact that you have done this I think is a triumph.

Sarah: Well, thank you.

HelenKay: I think it’s amazing, okay…?

Sarah: Every year I’m like, Holy shit. I am still doing this.

HelenKay: [Laughs]

Sarah: Holy hell. And those are also the kids who are like, Wait a minute, I am an adult, I have my own income, no one’s going to tell me what to do? I can do all the stuff I wanted to do when I was younger and people told me it was weird? Like –

HelenKay: Yes.

Sarah: – that’s awesome.

HelenKay: It’s, it’s amazing. One of my, one of my dearest friends in high school, his name is Dave Shirk. Dave Shirk won an Oscar because he is on the, like, what is it, VFX team for Gravity.

Sarah: No –

HelenKay: And –

Sarah: – way!

HelenKay: – he just did it where he was up for Wicked.

Sarah: No way!

HelenKay: And I’m like, this is a kid who was, like, a geek in high school –

Sarah: Yeah!

HelenKay: – right? Like, he was in plays with me, etc., and he is kicking everybody’s butt, doing exactly what he wants for his entire life, and that is, that is a gift; that is amazing. I, I just find that amazing.

Sarah: That is very cool. It is very cool, especially to have had that level of success that you’re now getting Oscar-nominated? Like, that’s frigging dope, ‘cause that’s a hard industry, too.

HelenKay: Yeah, to come, coming out of Lancaster County, Pennsylvania –

Sarah: As you do.

HelenKay: – a winner.

Sarah: Well, moving on to page 6, you and I both love the, the letter from Kathryn Falk, Lady of Barrow.

HelenKay: [Laughs]

Sarah: There’s a lot of shiny, shiny man chest going on here.

HelenKay: There’s a, there’s a lot of man chest there.

Sarah: Yep.

HelenKay: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: And you noticed that the letter starts talking about meeting all the cover models!

HelenKay: I know. [Laughs] I know! That was my nightmare, but yes.

Sarah: I remember the first RT was the same one as you, I was in Pittsburgh, and I was, I snuck into one of the ballrooms early, and at that point the cover models had to sort of like solicit your vote? So they would be like –

HelenKay: Yes!

Sarah: – extra charming, and they’d, you know, offer to take your bag and escort you and pull out your chair, and they were just performing chivalrous behavior to try to win over votes and flirting with everybody. And first of all, that made me so uncomfortable, I did not want to participate, but I went into the ballroom early to charge my computer, and all the cover models were in there, and they were like, Oh, hey, how are you? I’m like, Listen, I am, I am writing; I’m, I’m like press. You don’t need to worry about me. So all of them, there’s like six of them, they all just, like, collapse on the floor, and they’re like, Oh, thank God, and they, like, unflex, and their bellies are relaxed, and they’re just lying on the ground like I need a break; oh my God, I’m so tired; Dude, do you have a snack? And I’m just like, This is so great. Then I’m like, So what do you, what do you guys do professionally when you’re not here? Like, I’m a personal trainer; I’m a personal trainer; I’m a model; I’m a model; I’m a personal trainer; I’m a fitness adviser; I am a geologist, and I work on undersea excavations; and all of us –

HelenKay: What?!

Sarah: – looked at this one guy like, What?! Yeah!

HelenKay: What?!

Sarah: Isn’t that cool? Yeah. Super, super nice; all of them were lovely people; but I was like, I am not here for this performance of chivalry; it makes me very uncomfortable.

HelenKay: [Laughs]

Sarah: Please let your guy hang out and just chill on the floor with me. It’s much better for everybody.

One of the models that she mentions is Axl Goode, G-O-O-D-E, and every now and again I like to google these people to see where they’ve ended up. So you’ve got, you know, Don Allen, and in the lower left we’ve got Axl Goode. Axl in the magazine is, he’s got long, blond hair, wraparound sunglasses, and some kind of beaded necklace; maybe it’s an, a rosary? I don’t know, but he’s sort of looking at the camera; he’s in his car; he’s taking a selfie. So I’m like, Axl Goode! That’s a name! So over on the right side of the document I posted a comment with a link. I apologize for the New York Post link that I am going to put in the show notes, y’all.

HelenKay: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: This guy was in the news in 2014 because he sat next to a nurse who had been working with Ebola patients, next to, he sat next to this nurse who had worked with Ebola patients on a flight to Dallas – [laughs] – and so the headline is Romance Novel Model: I Sat Near Ebola Nurse on Flight. And then there’s pictures of him posing with, with Farrah Abraham’s book!

HelenKay: I don’t even know what to do with this. [Laughs]

Sarah: It is the most New York Post thing. Like, this is so Page Six? I cannot believe this. He’s also mad – this is very sad – he’s mad that he contacted the CDC hotline – and this is, again, in 2014, because they had a hotline about Ebola exposure, and he had to wait eighty-one minutes for someone to pick up the phone.

HelenKay: [Laughs] They had to go find the one Ebola person.

Sarah: The one guy. Meanwhile, do you know who was in charge of the Ebola response at the CDC?

HelenKay: Wait, it’s a, it’s a romance author, and I can’t remember her name.

Sarah: Dr. Jennifer McQuiston.

HelenKay: That’s it!

Sarah: Yeah!

HelenKay: I was on a panel with her, and everybody was like, What do, what do you do when you’re not writing? And she talked about her, and we were all like, we had the same reaction to the geologist model one; we were all like, Wait, what?

Sarah: What?

HelenKay: What? [Laughs]

Sarah: I did a whole interview with her. I’ll put, I’m going to make a note to myself to put a link in the show notes to my McQuiston interview, but she, I asked her all about being in the, in the Ebola response and what that was like and what it meant and what – and she’s a veterinarian by trade, but because she specializes in infectious diseases that transfer across mammals into humans, she was very well positioned to lead the Ebola response from the CDC. Now, if you think about it, how long do you think you’re going to wait on the phone if you try to call the CDC right now?

HelenKay: Can you call the CDC right now?

Sarah: I don’t even know! I mean, they might not even have phones anymore. Who the hell knows?

HelenKay: I’m sure there’s no hotline, but there could, it’s possible there’s not even a building, so, I don’t know.

Sarah: No! I mean, just like one guy.

HelenKay: Yeah. [Laughs]

Sarah: So yeah! I love that this guy’s big moment of fame since then is a Page Six article about how he sat near a nurse, and there’s lots of pictures of him with his shirt off, so of course Page Six was like, yes!

HelenKay: I don’t mean to suggest it might have been a slow news day, but –

Sarah: But I mean, yeah!

HelenKay: – that is – [laughs] – it’s a little, hmm!

Sarah: It’s a little weird, right?

[midroll]

Sarah: [Sings] Let’s all go to the midroll and have ourselves an ad!

Ad: The Historical Romance Sampler is a weekly podcast to fill your TBR. Each episode, hear an excerpt of a historical romance like Hell’s Belle from Annabelle Anders:

>> Apparently she’d forgotten all manners, all sense of social boundaries, as one of her hands rested on his no-longer, well, uninterested – “It’s moving!”

>> Ah, yes. Marcus wasn’t sure whether he ought to cover his face in mortification or turn the chit over his knees for a good spanking.

Stay for an interview like this conversation with Beverly Jenkins:

>> I’ve already educated my readers, and I don’t have to –

>> Right.

>> – hit them over the head anymore with, like, what’s happening in Louisiana in 1877.

And play games like Love It or Leave It with Golden Angel.

>> Love It or Leave It: Protagonists meet in the first ten percent of the novel.

>> I do love it! I prefer it if the protagonists meet like several books before their book.

Tune into The Historical Romance Sampler every Wednesday wherever you listen to podcasts.

Sarah: And now, back to the show!

[midroll ends]

Sarah: So on page 7, you noticed something that I have noticed over and over again about certain authors that are in this magazine.

HelenKay: Oh, this, oh my goodness, this is, they’re ta- – okay, so this is an article with Fred – [laughs] – and –

Sarah: Fred is, like, the librarian of RT magazine. I don’t understand, but he’s in –

HelenKay: I don’t –

Sarah: – so many issues.

HelenKay: I didn’t remember at all, ‘cause I’m like, Wait a minute, who is Fred? But he’s talking about indie authors –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

HelenKay: – which, again, at that time –

Sarah: Were not in libraries.

HelenKay: Not, not libraries. It was Tarryn Fisher and Colleen Hoover.

Sarah: Tracy Garvis Graves is in here!

HelenKay: I mean, I mean, what?!

Sarah: Yep!

HelenKay: These – talk about longevity –

Sarah: Oh yeah.

HelenKay: – you know, ‘cause a couple people have probably heard of Colleen Hoover. And, and I mean, Tarryn, Tarryn Fisher is, like, she does great in, she writes thrillers now, too, and she does great in thrillers, and you see the names and you’re like, Well, good for them!

Sarah: Yep.

HelenKay: They were, like, out-of-the-box kind of – this, I think, they’re talking about them writing New Adult fiction, but they’re out-of-the-box indie authors, and they still, a decade later, are at the absolute top of their game. I mean, Colleen Hoover’s, for a long time, she was the only one on the New York Times bestseller list.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

HelenKay: Is that still the case? I’m not sure, but –

Sarah: I mean, I think so. One of the things that made me absolutely twitchy was when It Never Ends with Us [It Ends with Us] came out, and people –

HelenKay: Mm.

Sarah: – were talking about how this was like Colleen Hoover’s, like, runaway hit. They, and there was a lot of talk as if she was a new author, and I’m like –

HelenKay: Yeah.

Sarah: – I have pictures from RT from fifteen years ago where it talks about her needing security when she travels internationally for book signings. She has been this huge for a long, long time –

HelenKay: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – and the, and the optioning and the reintroduction to, from all of her self-pub titles taking off on TikTok, this is just another arm, like another era of her career. She has been here. But still people talk about like it’s, like she’s new, and I’m like, No! She’s been around forever!

HelenKay: No. I have some –

Sarah: And still here! Still here!

HelenKay: Still, still here. Still at the top! Not, like, oh, a couple people have heard of her. I mean, geeze!

Sarah: I don’t know why this one guy was the librarian, but, I mean, Kathryn had people who she just featured and kept with her all the time, and it, Fred was one of them! Okay!

HelenKay: And he’s already retired by the time of the party.

Sarah: He’s already retired, yeah. It’s interesting, though, to see a retire- – oh, he’s semi-retired, but what, what, what’s interesting, ‘cause he worked at adult and teen services at Downers Grove Public Library in Illinois –

HelenKay: Okay.

Sarah: – and this is a time, like we’ve said, that indie books were not in libraries.

HelenKay: No, no.

Sarah: It was very hard to get them in!

HelenKay: No. We were still going through – I mean, I’m not even sure where we, where it was in RWA, but were they even recognized yet? I mean, I, I don’t think so! Like, you know, like, could you become a published author, blah-blah-blah? I don’t know! I don’t…

Sarah: Okay, I have some timing on this one. Okay.

HelenKay: I can’t remember!

Sarah: So I was pregnant. I was pregnant –

HelenKay: Maybe…

Sarah: – so that was 2007.When you and I first met, it was in Dallas. I was this little pregnant lady op-, like, orbiting the lobby, and I didn’t leave –

HelenKay: …remember that.

Sarah: – ‘cause it was so hot. I remember, I think I was pretty pregnant at that point, at that conference – it was the only one I was pregnant at – that they, RWA had just announced, We’re not recognizing digital, digital presses, and those authors are not considered published authors, ‘cause it was always about PAN, right?

HelenKay: Yeah, everything was about…

Sarah: It was already who, who got to be in the Published Author Network. I will never understand that. Like, I just want to go back in time and be like, Listen, in 2025 you’re going to have Facebook groups, and you’re going to have Discord, and you’re going to have Signal chats, and you’re going to have so many places to be a Published Author Network that is actually useful to you? This is not useful to you. This is not a big deal.

HelenKay: It is not. It was, I mean, I think it was probably, you know, at some point in this I get on the board, and I remember, you know, thinking to myself, If they knew how little the PAN designation mattered?

Sarah: Yeah!

HelenKay: And, but there’s so little in the publishing world that makes you feel part of the team? Like, and, and that you’ve accomplished something? I think it became a misplaced idea that this means I’ve accomp- – and you’ve written a book, you’ve published a book, you absolutely have accomplished something, but slapping PAN on it didn’t change anything. Like –

Sarah: Nope.

HelenKay: – it didn’t, you know, I don’t know, maybe it helped you, but I don’t know how.

Sarah: Well –

HelenKay: Like, I, I just – oof.

Sarah: I remember, in a lot of the coverage of Vivian Stephens like the last, past couple of years, her talking –

HelenKay: Yeah?

Sarah: – openly about how the organization had a moment where it could be a professional business organization or it could be a social organization, and it really veered toward social and stayed there.

HelenKay: Yeah.

Sarah: I mean, also, the RITA did not mean that much either, outside of RWA.

HelenKay: I know. We could, we could have a very difficult conversation about that, and, and –

Sarah: Well, it’s not difficult for me! Just tell me! [Laughs]

HelenKay: Well, and it, it is true; she’s right about the social thing, ‘cause I remember when I got on the board, our whole, for the entire time I was on, was trying to pull it back into a business organization –

Sarah: Yeah.

HelenKay: – and it’s very hard to do that when people just want to meet and have coffee and gossip, so it’s very hard to get it back on track, but –

Sarah: Yep.

HelenKay: – you know, the thing, the RI-, I, so I was a RITA finalist maybe four times?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

HelenKay: I won it once.

Sarah: I can see it over your shoulder. Hello!

HelenKay: Do you see? I know you see her; she’s behind me. And it is the coolest thing, and it feels validating.

Sarah: It’s frigging huge! It’s –

HelenKay: It feels amazing.

Sarah: You could do biceps curls. You could do a whole, like, I, I challenge you to do a RITA workout where you just hold it and do, like, biceps curls. Overhead – like, that thing is heavy!

HelenKay: I might do that! I might do that, actually!

Sarah: Yeah!

HelenKay: But it didn’t, I didn’t sell more books because of it? I didn’t. I didn’t. Maybe other people had a different experience. I did not. It’s not like my publisher was like, Oh good! Now we’ll give you thirty thousand more – no.

Sarah: No.

HelenKay: Like, none of that happened.

Sarah: Nope.

HelenKay: It was validating for me –

Sarah: Yep.

HelenKay: – to have my peers say, Hey! She can actually write romantic suspense; good job. That was awesome, and that meant something? But it didn’t mean quite what people thought it meant –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

HelenKay: – which is some kind of jumping-off point for your career. It just, it just didn’t, outside of RWA. The one that was, the Golden Heart was really the one that, earlier in its day –

Sarah: Yes.

HelenKay: – when more people were unpublished because self-publishing wasn’t an option, e-, eBooks –

Sarah: Were not a thing.

HelenKay: – like, weren’t a separate thing –

Sarah: Yeah.

HelenKay: – there were people who were published and people who weren’t published yet –

Sarah: Yep.

HelenKay: – and the Golden Heart had a lot – it was, it was a place for people to go, editors to go, agents to go and say, These books have been at least partially vetted –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

HelenKay: – so I’m not going to waste my time; I’ll read it. But as the industry grows and independ-, you know, indie books start all this, what happened with the Golden Heart is – and what people didn’t realize outside of it is – you, you would have a category where there would be seventeen people.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

HelenKay: Like, like, whatever, we kept lowering the number of entrants you had to have to qualify to be a, a category, because we got fewer and fewer and fewer, and of course what happens is if there’s twenty and you’re one of five finalists, that’s not quite as big a deal as being one of five finalists when there are four hundred –

Sarah: Yes.

HelenKay: – which is what it was a couple years before.

Sarah: Yep.

HelenKay: So toward the end, I mean, it just didn’t mean anything except for nostalgia.

Sarah: Yep. And nostalgia, people will defend nostalgia with –

HelenKay: Oh my gosh.

Sarah: – absolutely incredible outrageous behavior.

HelenKay: They will hold it until – oof –

Sarah: Yep.

HelenKay: Maybe…

Sarah: [Sings] Let it go! Let it go! I will never forget – I have a bad picture of this – but Rachel Gibson every year would wear her Golden Heart pendant to RWA.

HelenKay: Is that true?

Sarah: Yes! I took a picture of her. She would wear her, it was a necklace. She won a little necklace –

HelenKay: Oh yeah, you did, yeah.

Sarah: – I think it was with the, with the little RITA logo on the little Golden Heart necklace. She wore it to RWA, and she would always wear it to the RITAs. I have a picture of her; it’s a bad picture ‘cause hotel lighting back then was not good. They didn’t know about influencers and ring lights and shit like that. It, it’s a really cute picture. She’s wearing her little Golden Heart. She wore it to every RWA.

HelenKay: Well, good for her! And when she was in it, it probably was –

Sarah: It was very meaningful, yeah!

HelenKay: – four, five, six hundred people, and it meant a huge deal, but toward the end, other than –

Sarah: There were so many other paths, it didn’t –

HelenKay: Yeah.

Sarah: – you didn’t need that, that validation –

HelenKay: You didn’t need it.

Sarah: – and that confirmation. And, I mean, RWA –

HelenKay: And agents and editors knew it.

Sarah: Yes. You didn’t need it. And RWA was also one of the, like, I remember when we had a co-host for the RT Rewind, there was a sense way, way, way back when I started reading romance in the ‘90s where it was like, the romance was what was published, and that was, that’s what you got was mostly historical –

HelenKay: Yeah.

Sarah: – maybe there were some contemporaries, but, like, in the ‘90s, ‘80s, these were the romance publishers, and this was what you got, and there was this sort of sense of, Okay, but couldn’t we do better?

HelenKay: Yeah.

Sarah: Like, do we have to –

HelenKay: Yes.

Sarah: – have so much, like, assault? Could we not, maybe?

HelenKay: Yeah.

Sarah: Could we not have this, this one dy-, you know, this one dynamic over and over? Like, this is not great. But couldn’t we do more? Now there’s no limit to how much romance –

HelenKay: Yeah.

Sarah: – there is!

HelenKay: Yeah.

Sarah: And so an organization like RWA that’s going to be like, Okay, so you’re an aspiring writer? We’re going to introduce you to other writers, and then we’re going to introduce you to agents, and if you come to national, you’re going to meet agents and editors, and we are going to guide you through The Path. Well, now there’s like nine paths. Twenty-five paths –

HelenKay: Yeah.

Sarah: – a hundred, twenty –

HelenKay: Yeah.

Sarah: – thirty thousand paths. There’s no one way –

HelenKay: Yeah.

Sarah: – to shepherd someone through that.

HelenKay: No. And, and, and people are doing extraordinarily well without needing whatever these, like, you know, like, these –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

HelenKay: I, I –

Sarah: I’m a PAN; I’m a –

HelenKay: Yeah, I’m a this; I’m a that. You don’t need any of, any of that –

Sarah: Yes.

HelenKay: – and there’s a readership for everything!

Sarah: Absolutely.

HelenKay: I mean, there just is! [Laughs]

Sarah: The greatest loss of RWA, in my opinion, will always be – ‘cause I remember you telling me this – people at RWA used to be able to call a person at Facebook, and that person would answer the phone.

HelenKay: Yeah. Yeah.

Sarah: And people would be able to call Amazon. There was an, a representative for Amazon where you –

HelenKay: Yeah.

Sarah: – could talk to a person.

HelenKay: Yep.

Sarah: That is such a loss.

HelenKay: It is, it is the single biggest loss. I remember when I was president of RWA, and that was near the end. It was like two years, I think, or something, a year before it falls apart.

Sarah: No, it was the president after you.

HelenKay: Oh yeah…

Sarah: I did a whole series on it, and you were there, so thank you for that, by the way.

HelenKay: [Laughs] The, we would have, there would be meetings, like, with all of these, like, Authors Guild, Science Fiction and Fantasy, Mystery Writers of America, like, the Journalists Society. Anybody who had anything to do with writing, and there were, like, like, way more groups than you would think, and we’d be on the phone, and the, the woman at Authors Guild ran it, and she would always be like, RWA, what do you think? Always, every single time.

Sarah: Yep.

HelenKay: RWA, what do you think? Because we would listen, and some of it was just, like, you know, like, way past the self-publishing has now started, it’s taken off, you need to understand what it is and why it’s doing so well. You know, there’d be a couple groups who were like, We need to shut down – I’m like, Stop. You guys, stop it.

Sarah: Don’t be ridiculous.

HelenKay: Stop it!

Sarah: Yeah. We need to stop this madness! Nope, nope, sorry. That horse left the barn, and it is two counties over now.

HelenKay: Long ago.

Sarah: Yeah.

HelenKay: Long ago. And RWA was a voice that people listened to.

Sarah: Yes!

HelenKay: And we would have, like, there was a time where people were copyrighting, like, very, like, everyday statements, like romance writers were trying to copyright them so nobody else could use the most ridiculous – Fiona somebody did it; I can’t remember her name – and, you know, we would have, like, there’d be three, Authors Guild, us, and one other – and that’s it! We are on the phone with Amazon; we are on the phone with Facebook; we are on the phone with the copyright lawyer who is arguing the case –

Sarah: Yeah.

HelenKay: – saying what the problem is. RWA wasn’t just, didn’t just have a seat at the table; they were the table!

Sarah: Yep.

HelenKay: Along with Authors Guild, they were the table! And the –

Sarah: That must have been the neatest part of being president, by the way.

HelenKay: It was, it was absolutely amazing to listen to, and, and I remember Allison Kelley and I had a meeting with two, two guys from Amazon, and one was, like, in charge of, of, like, Fiction.

Sarah: Holy crap!

[Laughter]

HelenKay: The other one, the other one was, like, in charge of KU. I mean, these were huge people, and we were having a conversation about how, like, people are coming in, they’re taking books, they’re putting their own name on it, you know, etc.

Sarah: Yes.

HelenKay: What do we do? And everything that they were doing, and all of the stuff that they were doing that nobody is talking about because nobody knows, but they’re telling us –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

HelenKay: – and then they’re giving us a private number to call –

Sarah: Ho- –

HelenKay: – for when our members have their, their books stolen and somebody else that we can immediately call –

Sarah: And report it.

HelenKay: – and they can immediately shut it down.

Sarah: And Amazon does not do anything immediately. Not ever.

HelenKay: Nothing!

Sarah: Never!

HelenKay: I mean, have you ever tried to call there?

Sarah: No!

HelenKay: I mean, it’s – right? So that is a huge loss, not only to RWA. It is a huge loss to the writing community. That copyright thing, RWA funded.

Sarah: Yes, that was bankrolled in a large part by RWA, yeah.

HelenKay: Funded it, right? And, and there were, there were people who did a, an anthology; there were a bunch of authors who did an anthology. They give the money to RWA for the sole purpose of funding copyright legislation that copyright violations that come out. That’s for everybody!

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

HelenKay: That helps mystery; that helps science fiction and fantasy –

Sarah: Yes!

HelenKay: – that helps all of us! And when that was gone, people were like, Oh no, you know, the contest is gone. I’m like, You, you guys don’t even understand what’s really important here, because –

Sarah: That’s –

HelenKay: – that doesn’t matter. This is a huge loss, the, that piece, which we had really worked hard for like five years –

Sarah: Yeah.

HelenKay: – to make that huge, even if it was behind the scenes, and I remember repeatedly saying, Guys, you had win after win after win on this, and you never talk about it, so your membership doesn’t know.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

HelenKay: Like, what are we doing? What are we doing? But that makes me sad. I mean, so much about RWA and, and its demise – well, it’s still around – but it, the demise and the way –

Sarah: It used to be.

HelenKay: Where we were?

Sarah: The fuckery. Yeah.

HelenKay: [Laughs] Is, it makes me furious?

Sarah: Yes.

HelenKay: That just makes me sad. It makes me incredibly sad.

Sarah: It was such a powerful resource if you were a member? It’s sort of like –

HelenKay: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: It’s sort of like having really good insurance. You know, like something shitty happens and you don’t know what to do, and here comes an insurance agent who’s like, You’re a policy holder; you are covered. Tell me –

HelenKay: Yeah.

Sarah: – tell me – I mean, now, I have been through Hurricane Sandy with insurance adjusters, and that was not fun, and don’t ever, ever believe a commercial that tells you any insurance company is your friend or family; they are not. But when you have good coverage and you have a policy and you get a legitimate adjuster on the phone or someone who’s willing to help you, having somebody say, Nonono, I can help you with this.

HelenKay: Yeah.

Sarah: Did a tree fall on your garage? I can help you with that. That’s covered by your policy; let’s get started. You know, that’s huge! To have somebody –

HelenKay: Huge.

Sarah: – like, Oh, you’re a member of RWA? We can help you with this problem where someone stole your whole back catalogue and –

HelenKay: Yeah.

Sarah: – released it. Or scraped Wikipedia pages and put your name on it.

But hey, up until it went to shit, you guys did a great job. You really did; it was so impressive. That last RWA in 2019 was so fucking impressive.

HelenKay: I, I’m so – and I was president during that one, and I am so happy that there is that memory.

Sarah: Yeah!

HelenKay: Because what happened like a year later was not good.

Sarah: No, six months, because RWA –

HelenKay: Yeah.

Sarah: – 2019 was when, like, Kennedy Ryan won a, won a RITA.

HelenKay: Yeah!

Sarah: The whole RITA ceremony was about the history of romance. Steve Ammidown contributed so much history about Black authors –

HelenKay: Yeah.

Sarah: – and, and marginalized authors –

HelenKay: So well down.

Sarah: – and December 23rd of the same year: done.

HelenKay: Done!

Sarah: Kaflooey. It took, it took so little. You know what? There’s a lesson here. This is reflected in our current presidential administration. You didn’t think RWA was so fragile as to be undone by a handful of people in five months, but it is, and it was. And I didn’t think our government was fragile, but apparently it is.

HelenKay: And, I mean, we, you know, I saw all the financial stuff. There was a lot of money, and you can say whatever you want about Allison Kelley, she, she had money set here, money – I mean, there was contingency funds, and gone. Six months, that’s all it took. And she used to say at the table, You know, RWA has a lot of money; more than any other writing organization.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

HelenKay: You know, we can fund other people’s thing. One bad conference and we’re in huge trouble, and she wasn’t wrong!

Sarah: 2020. There was no conference.

HelenKay: None.

Sarah: Not just because of the pandemic, but I don’t know if anyone –

HelenKay: No.

Sarah: – anybody would have gone anyway.

HelenKay: No.

Sarah: So let’s go to PDF page 8, where Anita is really mad about curse words, HelenKay; she’s real mad about it. Really, really angry about foul language. Would you like to read this letter? because it is just incredible.

HelenKay: I, I, this – okay.

Sarah: Anyone who is mad about foul language definitely does not listen to me or this podcast or my website. Like, I am, I am in the clear here. You know, you know the deal. [Laughs]

HelenKay: Well, and the thing is, this is, this is like her supporting somebody else who wrote a letter about this.

Sarah: People write about other letters, and I’m like, I am mad that I don’t have a consistent collection here, because I –

HelenKay: [Laughs]

Sarah: – want to go to the other letter!

HelenKay: So, so she, Anita:

>> I’m encouraged to see that I am not the only woman who finds foul language and graphic sex, depicted more and more in the current market, objectionable.

Sarah: Where’s she been?

[Laughter]

HelenKay: >> My “accepted authors” list is growing smaller by the month. RT does a fairly good job at rating for sexual content, but there is no rating for language. Swearing or coarse speech is subjective; however, profanity is not. Anyone –

Sarah: Fuck are you talking about?! [Laughs]

HelenKay: Man.

>> Anyone who claims to be a wordsmith knows fully well that profanity is to treat something sacred –

Okay.

>> – with abuse, irreverence, or contempt.

I don’t understand where she got that.

>> So to put it simply, please, authors, don’t use God’s name as a swear word. This is offensive beyond anything I could forgive. A profanity rating would be helpful.

Oh, Anita. Anita. Anita.

Sarah: Jesus Francesca Christ.

HelenKay: I – [sighs] – okay, so I wrote for Harlequin Intrigue for years, and the first time I go from Brava, writing very sexy romance, and I add Harlequin Intrigue –

Sarah: Which is a much more confined boundary of –

HelenKay: Much more.

Sarah: There are, I know for every line in Harlequin, there is a very specific set of rules and boundaries that you –

HelenKay: Yes.

Sarah: – stay inside.

HelenKay: And, and they were absolutely clear. They’re like, Look, you know, because they had that book club thing – you know, the thing where they – what was that called? You know what I mean?

Sarah: Yeah, they would, you would subscribe to a line; they’d send you all the books.

HelenKay: Yeah.

Sarah: Yeah, you know, direct consumer marketing and –

HelenKay: Direct –

Sarah: – subscription box, which was something that became popular later that they did not capitalize, and I don’t understand…

HelenKay: Well, they stopped it then. And –

Sarah: Yeah.

HelenKay: – that was a good time to stop it, yeah.

Sarah: Yeah.

HelenKay: And so my editor, who is now a thriller editor at Crooked Lane, but my editor said, Look, you know, we have gotten feedback over the years that people do not like profanity, so, you know, kind of keep it as low as you can. Now, I am writing romantic suspense about undercover operatives. You know, I’m like, They’re going to swear every now and then. I mean, they just are, right? And one time I, like, lost my head and – I’m sorry if this offends anybody – the word fuck was in the book, right? I know. I don’t know what I was thinking. So in the –

Sarah: All my pearls are clutched at this time!

HelenKay: In the comments, Denise Zaza, God love her, writes – ‘cause this is the best sentence in the world – We don’t fuck in Harlequin Intrigue, and I wrote back, and I was like –

Sarah: [Laughs]

HelenKay: – Is, is that what you meant to say? [Laughs]

Sarah: Why is there, why is there not swag with it? Why is there not HelenKay Dimon We Do Not Fuck in Harlequin Intrigue swag? I would wear the fuck out of that shirt. Oh my God!

HelenKay: I was like, I don’t think that’s what you mean to say. [Laughs]

Sarah: We do not fuck in Harlequin Intrigue – oh my God! [Laughs]

HelenKay: But it, but, I mean, and she wasn’t wrong! Like, I –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

HelenKay: – would get email, and –

Sarah: Got to chop that F-bomb!

HelenKay: – and my favorite is when they would write a letter! I’m like, This, this took some –

Sarah: Time!

HelenKay: – doing, right?

Sarah: Effort – you had to get the envelope; you had to get the stamp; you had to look up the address!

HelenKay: And they would count the number of times that you used profane language, and they would send it to you and, you know, Your mother would not be proud, or whatever thing they would say, and it’s like, somebody – it may have been Jill Shalvis – somebody I know, somebody went through their book and circled –

Sarah: Oh dear God.

HelenKay: – every time, and sent it to the author so they would know how much profanity they were using. I’m like, If you were in my home –

Sarah: [Laughs]

HelenKay: – and you heard –

[Laughter]

HelenKay: – the stuff that comes out of my mouth over nothing, you would be appalled. I’m just saying. Just saying.

Sarah: And yet there are actual-factual psychological studies that have proven that the physical and chemical release of using curse words in your language is beneficial to your stress cycle.

HelenKay: Yep.

Sarah: Like –

HelenKay: It is to mine!

Sarah: It’s definitely good to mine. Oh my God. Like, did you see, see the name of my, on my website? It’s, you know, I’ve got a little –

HelenKay: [Laughs]

Sarah: Bitches was an okay word in my house from a very young age. We just had a whole talk about not to say it in front of Grammy. That was all.

HelenKay: Yes.

Sarah: ‘Cause I had mail coming to Sarah, Smart Bitches or Smart Bitch Sarah, and my kids could read, so, you know.

HelenKay: [Laughs]

Sarah: Oh my God. I know a copyeditor who used to write for Harlequin Love Inspired. Not write: edit. She would edit for Harlequin Love Inspired, and there is a list of things that cannot happen, and I actually know, I think I’ve met the editor who wrote the list of things that cannot happen in a Harlequin Love Inspired, like No cursing –

HelenKay: Yeah.

Sarah: – No drinking, No gambling. You are allowed to talk to God; God cannot have dialogue? Like –

HelenKay: Fascinating!

Sarah: Yeah, they had, like, God cannot have dialogue. You, the characters can talk to God, but God cannot answer back. You may not be the voice of God as an author, and I was like, You know, that’s actually really smart.

So there was, like, a list of things that could not be in a Love Inspired, and this copyeditor created a drinking game with their friends where they would go in a circle and have to name something that shouldn’t be in a Love Inspired, but wasn’t on the list.

HelenKay: [Laughs]

Sarah: Fisting! Pony play! Like, I would have been so drunk if I had played that game.

HelenKay: That is, that is actually spectacular.

Sarah: Isn’t that great?

HelenKay: I, I can imagine the rules for that line.

Sarah: Oh yeah! I’m sure if you asked they would give them to you. I’m thinking about –

HelenKay: Oh –

Sarah: – writing a Love Inspired. Can you tell me your, you know, editorial boundaries? What’s also funny is this response to Anita and her fucking letter? So this is the response from RT. Sometimes RT does not handle the Letter to the Editor responses very well, or they –

HelenKay: [Laughs]

Sarah: – they will just throw – like, at one point it was like, How could you do a list of pets in mystery without mentioning that one cat? I forget his name – Amanda’s going to yell the name at me the next time I ask her what the – it was, maybe it was Charlie – either way, there was a very famous mystery series with a cat who solves crime! And RT was like, Well, you know, we reached out to her, and she never wrote back, so she wasn’t…

HelenKay: That’s…nice.

Sarah: I was like, Just chuck her under the bus, right? So the RT’s response is:

>> Your position is well taken, and your suggestion for a profanity rating is interesting –

HelenKay: Mm-mm.

Sarah: >> – but would be rather difficult to implement with over fifty reviewers to manage. It may be wise for you to stick with authors that work for you. Also go to booksellers and fellow readers for recommendations. Perhaps RT readers can help! Anyone have suggestions for Anita?

So that was many, many, many, many words of Bless Your Heart.

HelenKay: [Laughs] I, I have a suggestion for Anita. Where’s Anita?

[Laughter]

HelenKay: She won’t like it!

Sarah: She won’t like that suggestion. Oh my God. The letters to – and the other thing I love about Letters to the Editor is that they would just reprint tweets?

HelenKay: [Laughs] Yeah.

Sarah: Like, they don’t have a lot of letters, but they’ve got four giant, giant tweets. From Lorraine Heath and @AmazonPub! [Laughs] Jenny Holiday and Larissa Ione are all “tweeted.”

HelenKay: Larissa Ione! I haven’t heard that name in forever!

Sarah: She has a new book out, I –

HelenKay: Urban fantasy?

Sarah: No, it, she has restarted the Demonica series with Demonica Birthright –

HelenKay: Mm! Mm-hmm!

Sarah: – and the covers are really good.

HelenKay: Oh, good for her!

Sarah: If you look, there’s Legacy of Temptation and Legacy of Chaos, and they’re both backlit wrought-iron gates, but there are words in the wrought iron that are spelled out in gold? So the first one says Wrath and the second one says Pride? They’re so well designed.

HelenKay: Good for her!

Sarah: Isn’t that cool? Yeah, she just released a whole new series. Amanda was so excited, ‘cause she loved the Demonica series.

Did you know, by the way, that your book is on page PDF 9?

HelenKay: As it should be! And I am very – [laughs] – very, thank you, Avon, ‘cause look at that lovely round! Now, compared to the other round – no offense to Kensington – but this round, it does look a little more, we’ve got, right? We’ve got a paranormal, Maya Banks has a romantic suspense in there, so it’s a little less Adirondack-y chair-y looking.

Sarah: Yeah, we’ve got Candis Terry, Sweet Surprise – clearly a sweet contemporary.

HelenKay: Very, yeah.

Sarah: We’ve got Jeaniene Frost and some big man nipples.

HelenKay: Yeah, that’s, that’s some – that chest is more impressive than the guy on Playing Dirty.

Sarah: Yeah.

HelenKay: Yeah, it’s close!

Sarah: Yeah, it’s pretty incredible. And then we’ve got three historicals, including a Julia Quinn. Like, this is a really good collection. This is what Avon used to do; remember that?

HelenKay: Yeah. I know, I know.

Sarah: It’s a sad thing.

HelenKay: I know.

Sarah: And then on the next page, there’s more of you!

HelenKay: There I am!

Sarah: Do you remember this interview at all?

HelenKay: No, I have no – [laughs] – I have no memory at, at all!

Sarah: So I love this author picture of you. I know this was your author picture for a really long time, but because I know you –

HelenKay: It was.

Sarah: – every time I see this picture – ‘cause you’re standing and you’re smiling, and you look very friendly, and your hands are, your fingers are apart, but your hands are pressed together, and I know that gesture? When you make that gesture it’s like, Okay.

HelenKay: [Laughs]

Sarah: I am going to explain some things to you. So this is the start of HelenKay setting you straight. That is the posture of Okay.

HelenKay: Let me tell you –

Sarah: Yes!

HelenKay: [Laughs] And –

Sarah: Exactly that!

HelenKay: – and I’m clearly at, like, an RWA signing or something there, ‘cause there are…

Sarah: Well, you have –

HelenKay: – people behind me.

Sarah: – PAN on your name tag!

HelenKay: Oh, I do!

Sarah: Look at you!

HelenKay: Look how – and some kind of special sticker. I don’t even know what that is!

Sarah: Yeah, that was before we started decorating our badges with ribbons and stickers and shit.

HelenKay: Wooow.

Sarah: Yeah.

HelenKay: I’m not a ribbons and stickers kind of gal, but –

Sarah: Look at that.

HelenKay: I know. Mostly I’m upset because I liked that shirt, and I don’t know where it is.

Sarah: Unfortunate!

HelenKay: I hate that.

Sarah: Is that silk? You could get another one.

HelenKay: It is! It is! It was like nice and silk, and my hair –

Sarah: Check out Poshmark. I bet, I bet if you look on Poshmark there are gorgeous –

HelenKay: I’ll just find it. [Laughs]

Sarah: I have been secondhand shopping like a beast this week.

HelenKay: I like that shirt! I like the color. Mostly I’m impressed, I’m like, Oh, that’s back when I wore watches that didn’t tell me to stand up and then I haven’t moved in fifteen minutes, you know.

[Laughter]

HelenKay: HelenKay, you haven’t gotten up in four hours. Yeah, I know! I know!

Sarah: Yes, I know! It’s like Netflix –

HelenKay: I know!

Sarah: – Are you still watching? Yes!

HelenKay: [Laughs]

Sarah: Fuck off! [Laughs]

HelenKay: I know!

Sarah: I didn’t ask for your opinion!

HelenKay: [Laughs] It’s like, learn from Peacock; they never ask!

Sarah: They never ask me. So this article is really, really good! And it’s got a little excerpt? Do you think that this article and the cover helped sales of this book? Is that something you could quantify or identify at all?

HelenKay: You know, because it’s the first in a series –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

HelenKay: – so I think it had that push too, and –

Sarah: Mm.

HelenKay: – this was back at time, do you remember where romance publishers did this thing where – ‘cause this was big with Larissa Ione – if there are three books in the series, so they’d put them out like June, July, and August –

Sarah: Oh yeah the back-to-back –

HelenKay: – or June, August, October.

Sarah: – triplet releases. Yeah! Oh yeah. One, they would do them all in a row.

HelenKay: Yes. And I remember being angry – [laughs] – because Avon’s like, We are not doing that. It was like, Why not?

Sarah: Why not?!

HelenKay: I thi-, I think they had, like, some, you know, it was waning. Like, they weren’t –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

HelenKay: – doing it as much by this point, but I don’t know. But they ended up putting them out like maybe three months apart? So.

Sarah: That’s not bad.

HelenKay: So it wasn’t bad! It wasn’t bad.

Sarah: ‘Cause now you have a series, and it’s like, you know, a year, fourteen months –

HelenKay: Oh yeah, all the time.

Sarah: – between installments, and I’m like, Who, who even are these people? I don’t remember who these people are.

HelenKay: And this is where I talk about the, one of the inspirations for the series, ‘cause I think I, I told you that this MI6 and CIA series, and there was a Cinemax television show called Strike Back –

Sarah: Yes!

HelenKay: – and they had – which I loved and still love. Anybody who hasn’t seen it, go see it. It’s like four, five, it starts, the very first season, I think, starts, like, it was on British television with Richard Armitage, and then it switches to Cinemax, and it’s a, it’s a slightly different group of people, but it, watching that is where I was like, These people should kiss! And then, then I –

Sarah: [Laughs]

HelenKay: A series was born! [Laughs]

Sarah: And then on page 11, you noticed a feature that I love: the Book Sleuth.

HelenKay: The Book Sleuth. I know, you do this!

Sarah: So this is basically a HaBO! This is basically my whole brain. Like, I read this book and this thing happens, but I don’t remember the name, the cover, or the author. I am a librarian’s worst nightmare.

HelenKay: But this one:

>> The oldest sister is a nun, or possibly a nurse –

Same thing.

Sarah: It starts with N.

HelenKay: >> – who is in love with the middle sister’s husband.

Come on, now! What book is that?

Sarah: That sounds like a Reddit thread. Am I the Asshole?

[Laughter]

Sarah: I told my nun sister to fuck off. Am I, was I overreacting?

HelenKay: I just love a nun or, like, an elementary school teacher –

Sarah: Or maybe a nurse!

HelenKay: – one of those two. [Laughs]

Sarah: Yeah, one of those two things – totally the same thing? Nurn, nurse, nun. I mean, unless it was like one of those hospital convents. But yeah. I don’t know what book that is, but listen, if you’re listening and you know –

>> – a fairly recent release about three sisters.

So this was around 2015. Older sister’s a nun or a nurse, and she’s in love with her middle sister’s husband. If you remember this book, please, please tell us. Please.

Speaking of nun, on PDF page 15 –

HelenKay: We got priests!

Sarah: – we’ve got hot priests. Charlotte Stein –

HelenKay: A priest!

Sarah: – reveals her obsession with forbidden loves. Dun-duh-duh.

HelenKay: She was way ahead of her time…

Sarah: Oh, a hundred percent. And she even cites The Thorn Birds as part of her inspiration.

HelenKay: Love it.

Sarah: Like, obviously!

HelenKay: Of course. Come on, now. Rest in peace, by the way. Didn’t he die like a month ago?

Sarah: Yes, I think he did.

HelenKay: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: But, like, yeah!

HelenKay: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: Writing hot priests?

HelenKay: Come on, now.

Sarah: Sexual taboos? Like, cutting edge. And this was a Harlequin Impulse Red, which I think was super, super horny.

HelenKay: I don’t even remember. All I remember is I went to my editor and I was like, I want to write a book with a priest, and she’s like, Absolutely not.

[Laughter]

HelenKay: So that’s all I remember. So – come on, May! No. [Laughs] So, ruin everything!

Sarah: Yeah, I know. Honestly, just – taking out all the fun, May! I’ll send her this, this episode and be like, We have some, we have some notes.

HelenKay: [Laughs] We’d like to come back.

Sarah: We’d like, like to circle back with you about a couple of things from ten years ago. It’ll be fine.

HelenKay: [Laughs]

[outro]

Sarah: And that brings us to the end of this week’s episode. Thank you profusely to HelenKay Dimon for being so generous with her time. She will be back on May 30th for the second part of the ads and features, because, again, there’s so much history that we discuss, and I can’t tell you how much I have enjoyed producing these episodes, and I’m really happy to hear that you like them.

I will have links in the show notes at smartbitchestrashybooks.com/podcast under episode 667 to all of the books that we talked about, plus TV shows, prior episodes that I mention, and of course the Page Six article with the male model who’s in quarantine.

As always, I end with a terrible joke. This joke is horrible, and I’m delighted to share it with you.

Did you hear about the person who got arrested for stealing an entire set of encyclopedias? Whole set! The whole thing. Yeah.

When the cuffs came out, they said they could explain everything.

[Laughs] I can hear you groaning! I can hear – somebody just stood still wherever they are and went, Ah, Sarah. That was from AnimatorNr1 on Reddit, and I am deeply grateful for every terrible joke that I see, that I receive from all of you –

Wilbur: Meow!

Sarah: – from Wilbur, apparently; he also has things to say?

On behalf of Wilbur, who’s yelling, I wish you the very best of reading. Have a wonderful weekend, and we will see you back here next week. And in honor of my favorite retired podcast Friendshipping, thank you for listening; you’re welcome for talking.

[end of music]