590. Audiobooks and Romance Tropes with Mara Wilson

[music]

Sarah Wendell: Hello and welcome to episode number 590 – woohoo! – of Smart Podcast, Trashy Books. I’m Sarah Wendell, and my guest today is Mara Wilson! Recently Mara Wilson was talking about her favorite and least favorite romance tropes on social media, and so of course I immediately emailed her publicist and invited her over here to talk about it! You may know Mara Wilson from Matilda or Mrs. Doubtfire, but she’s also working very happily as an audiobook narrator, including for Camp Damascus by Chuck Tingle. So we’re going to talk about her journey from reluctant romance reader to happy romance fan, we’re going to talk about some of her favorite tropes, and I’m going to recommend some romances, as I am wont to do.

Please note: we don’t talk a lot about the films that she is in, because this was recorded while SAG-AFTRA and the WGA were both on strike.

I also want to give a special hello to Basil and Freya, who make appearances in this episode, demanding attention.

Hello and thank you to our Patreon community. I am so very, very thankful for you. You keep me going, you make sure every episode has a transcript compiled by garlicknitter – hi, garlicknitter! – and you make a very wonderful community even better, so thank you for that. If you would like to join the Patreon community, it would be wonderful to have you. We have a Discord, we have bonus episodes, and we have a lot of fun.

I have a compliment this week!

To Tracy H.: When your friends need inspiration to be courageous and daring, the first person they think of is you.

If you would like a compliment of your own or you’d just like to find out more about the Patreon, head over to patreon.com/SmartBitches. Monthly pledges begin at one entire dollar a month, and every pledge is deeply, deeply appreciated, so thank you.

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Are you ready for this episode to get started? I am. Let’s do this. On with my podcast with Mara Wilson.

[music]

Mara Wilson: My name is Mara Wilson. I am a writer, actor, and audiobook narrator.

Sarah: There’s so much summed in those three words.

Mara: [Laughs] There is.

Sarah: There’s a lot in there. Now, you were just –

Mara: Yeah!

Sarah: – at Comic Con in Northern Ireland, right?

Mara: I was, yeah! And people in Belfast are some of the nicest, warmest people that I’ve ever met. They’re very hospitable, and they’re very kind, and you would never know that this was a city that was so incredibly war-torn and had gone through so much, although there is a resilience in the people, I think. But there’s, there’s a kindness and a hospitality and just a, a willingness to take care of people that feels very, it feels very real. I mean, people brought me my favorite Irish tea. [Laughs] Even though it’s not actually as readily available in Northern Ireland, they gave it to me anyway, and people were just incredibly kind, and so I had a great time there.

And I do like doing the cons, because you also get to meet a lot of cool people. I’ve made friends with some people that I never thought I would meet, and I’ve gotten to get, you know, things signed and, you know, brief, like, video cameos from, from celebrities that my, my friends adore, and my family, you know, people they love, so that gets to be the, the fun birthday presents. [Laughs]

Sarah: I imagine all the celebrities at a Comic Con, like, behind the scenes just all pointing at each other like the, like the Spiderman GIF? Like, Oh, it’s you! Oh, it’s you! [Laughs]

Mara: And, and every now and then there’s kind of a like, Don’t I know you? Like, I, I was in the green room and I said Hi to Elijah Wood, and he gave me a hug ‘cause he thought he knew me. [Laughs] And he’s just a nice guy, and I was like, I don’t know if we’ve ever actually met!

Sarah: [Laughs]

Mara: I mean, maybe we have. Maybe. The child actor world is very small, and he was a couple years ahead of me, but not by much, so it’s possible. It’s possible that we, we did at some point. But yeah, there is a lot of that. There is, probably one of the coolest that I ever had of that is I sat across the table from, from David Tennant, who I adore. Yeah, you’re, you’re putting your, your hand over your mouth right now, and –

Sarah: Oh my gosh!

Mara: – he was, and oh my gosh, he had, like, he had, like, the red hair for Good Omens, and he was wearing a, a sweater with, I think, like – it’s from I think like Secret Squirrel or some show where there’s like a squirrel or something that’s a secret agent, and he was taking the time to read all of his fan letters, and –

Sarah: Oh!

Mara: – not everybody does that! Some people are just like, Oh, okay; they’ll look over it; but he was deeply reading them. And I introduced myself, and I told him how much I loved everything he’s ever done, and he told me in that, like, gorgeous, gentle Scottish accent that, like, his kids loved Matilda.

Sarah: Oh!

Mara: And I was like, Oh my gosh, I can’t believe this is happening! [Laughs] And you try to play it cool, but, but yeah –

Sarah: No. There’s no playing it cool. I always say moments like that, my inner thirteen-year-old is completely losing her cool. Like, there’s a part of me –

Mara: Oh.

Sarah: – inside that’s just like making a noise that only dogs can hear in that moment.

Mara: Yeah, exactly. I was, I, I still, like, you know, on a bad day I can still be like, like, David Tennant said his kids loved my movies!

Sarah: Yeah, right?

Mara: And yeah, it’s, it’s really, it’s, it’s very, yeah, that was amazing.

Sarah: I’d think about that every night before I went to sleep.

Mara: Yeah, it’s, it’s one of the things – one thing I do at cons is I write down the nice things people have said and done –

Sarah: Ohhh –

Mara: – during the day, because you meet so many people that sometimes you forget? And so I, I have that from my book tour, too. One of the nicest things is when, I’ve met a lot of people who have named their child Matilda? And once or twice in, in, let’s see, I think at Newcastle, I actually met people who named their baby Mara.

Sarah: Oh my goodness!

Mara: And – I know! – and in San Francisco I actually met a trans woman whose name was Mara, and she said, The first time that I saw that name was on, you know, the, the videocassette of one of your movies. So both times that I was told this I was, you know, crying, because what, what an incredible, incredible thing to be told that, you know, somebody named their child or named themselves after you, and you just hope that you can live up to that. [Laughs]

Sarah: I mean, you have already done so much work taking Matilda, the, the character, and giving it a new, a new point of access for so many people, because I personally, like, I struggle to recommend Roald Dahl’s books sometimes, because Roald Dahl had some questionable politics?

Mara: Yeah, I mean, the, the thing about that is that I’m going to be associated with Matilda, no matter what I do, for the rest of my life –

Sarah: It is true!

Mara: – and, and I only had wonderful experiences with the, with the Dahl family. They were, they were all open and warm and kind to me –

Sarah: Wow!

Mara: – and, and, and I will say that a lot of men, you know, British and European men of his generation did not have the best views. [Laughs]

Sarah: No, not so much!

Mara: It was, you know –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Mara: – very common, so, so, it, it is sort of a, I think it’s easier to separate the art from the artist when they have passed on?

Sarah: Yes –

Mara: And they’re not –

Sarah: – I think that’s very true.

Mara: ‘Cause, you know, I think about all the people I know who are very disappointed in, you know, in, say, like, J. K. Rowling or Orson Scott Card or all of these authors, and they’re like, Well, should I just not buy anymore of their books? Should I, you know, how, how do I, I deal with that? And it is very hard. I think, you know, you can – you know, I was a big fan of Woody Allen’s movies, and then, my God.

Sarah: Uh-huh.

Mara: I think about it now and I’m just like –

Sarah: Ahhh!

Mara: – I’m just like – I know! [Laughs] Exactly! So it is hard! You know, it is hard, but I will say that Matilda, for me, is, is sort of an archetype.

Sarah: Oh, she very much is!

Mara: She’s a character – yeah! – she’s a character that, that kind of exists almost out-, outside of everything, almost outside of her creator, I think. It’s – and she means so much to so many people that, you know, I, I am going to be associated with her, no matter what, and I think that I just kind of, I, I make the best of it. And sometimes that’s a lot of pressure! To be the character that so many girls – well, so many people, really – related to.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Mara: So that can be a lot of pressure, but I, I feel, I, I, I feel glad about what I’ve done with it. Have I made some mistakes? Yeah, I’m sure; everybody has. But I, I think – and, and some people have said that they find it very fitting that one of my biggest creative outlets and the, and one of my most regular jobs is audiobook narration –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Mara: – and it’s especially full-circle because the first time I encountered Matilda, my mother was reading it out loud to my brother’s class.

Sarah: Oh wow!

Mara: So I, I think I maybe had an ear infection or something; I was maybe four years old; and my mother, my mother was a, was a natural actress. She went to Northwestern University, you know, studied theater there, and they, like, we, I went to Theodore Roosevelt Elementary School, and she would dress up as Theodore Roosevelt every year on his birthday and –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Mara: – it was really embarrassing. She was a natural actress, and they asked her to read out loud. I think she was like PTA president at the time; she was kind of overcommitted. But she couldn’t find a babysitter for me – like I said, overcommitted – and she took me there, and she just took me in my pajamas and wrapped me up in a blanket and put me in the back of the classroom. And the kids were reading as she was reading to them, and I was just transfixed. I loved this book. So it, it is kind of fitting that now what, what is my job, I – [laughs] – I read to people.

Sarah: It’s a lovely job, isn’t it?

Mara: I think that audiobook narrator is probably the best job I’ve ever had. I absolutely love it. It’s so much fun. It’s, it’s, it’s, you get to be so many different characters. A lot of times it gives you excuses to read books that you might not always have time for, and I absolutely love it! It, it feels, it really scratches the acting itch without having to deal with all the nonsense of Hollywood.

Sarah: Absolutely.

Mara: So it’s, it’s fun. Or, or the, the theater: it feels a lot like being in theater. So I absolutely adore it, and I hope that, I hope that people are listening! [Laughs]

Sarah: Oh!

Mara: And they do seem to, they do seem to be.

Sarah: Oh yes.

Mara: [Laughs]

Sarah: My, my podcast has a Patreon to support it, and I have questions from my Patreon members about your audiobook work, because they were all –

Mara: Oh, I would love that.

Sarah: – so excited about, not only that I was going to interview you, but we’re going to talk about audiobooks.

Mara: Yeah.

Sarah: So one person who is in my Patreon named Rebellion Bear wanted to ask you –

Mara: Great name.

Sarah: I know, right? Want, wanted to ask, What was surprising to you about audiobook narration? ‘Cause you’ve done a lot of very different titles. You did Camp Damascus by Chuck Tingle, which is like –

Mara: Yeah.

Sarah: – super body horror creepy, and you’ve done –

Mara: Oh yeah.

Sarah: – One for All by Lillie Lainoff, which is a fantasy with great disability representation, and those are separate – I mean, they have things in common, but those are separate genres. What was surprising about audiobook narration for you when you got started?

Mara: [Laughs] How physically exhausting it is?

Sarah: It really is, isn’t it?

Mara: Yeah, especially earlier on in, in it. You know, especially, like, when I was doing One for All, that was one of the first books that I did, and, and I was affecting different poses to help with characters. Now I don’t need to do that as much, but at the time it really helped to access different characters. So it is very tiring. In fact, I had to make myself a list of things that I could plausibly do at the end of a – [laughs] – at the end of an, a long audiobook day, because otherwise I was just going to come home and I was just going to play Stardew Valley or, you know, reread one of my favorite books or, you know, just rewatch Hacks or a show that I really love, and so I had to remind myself that, no, you do have to do things when you get home, so I made a list of, like, Here are things that, even though I’m exhausted, I can plausibly do: I can go for a walk, I can do some very simple yoga, I can do some dishes while I’m listening to an audiobook or a podcast. I can, you know, I can, I can clean out the cat’s water dish. I can, you know, do a little bit of laundry. Like, things that are not overwhelming.

Sarah: Right.

Mara: Now, I’m probably not going to want to go to a big exercise class. I’m probably, you know, I may or may not want to hang out, and those are also things that will rest my voice, because telling me to, not to talk is very, very hard.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Mara: That is a very big challenge for me. So, so –

Sarah: Oh! Funny enough, me too!

Mara: Yeah, so telling me to relax my voice is hard. One thing that I always tell people about audiobooks that they would never expect is your biggest enemy is your stomach?

Sarah: Oh my gosh, yes?

Mara: Yes, because you are reading from, you know, maybe nine in the morning to noon, to 1 p.m. to 2 p.m., and then you are reading on into the afternoon, and at some point your stomach starts to growl.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Mara: So you – and they will hear everything.

Sarah: Oh –

Mara: Audio engineers are used to hearing every noise there is from the human body. So – and they’ll just be polite about it, but you get used to them saying –

Sarah: ‘Scuse me, your liver just sneezed. Yeah. [Laughs]

Mara: Yes, exactly. They get used to saying things like, you know, There’s some stomach noise on that, and the first few times that happens it’s humiliating, but then you just get used to it, and you start, like, bringing in a banana – [laughs] –

Sarah: Yep.

Mara: – so, so your stomach won’t growl two hours in, and then four hours in you take a break –

Sarah: Yep.

Mara: – and you actually eat lunch. And then you have to deal with, you know, the stomach noises after lunch, and there’s a lot of pressing cushions to your stomach – [laughs] – pressing cushions to your abdomen to muffle the noise. And that, I think, is something that people don’t always realize. So those are the practicalities, I think, of, of recording audiobooks that I really, I really like to tell people about, because I think that they’re, they are very funny.

I also think that another thing that surprised me, but probably shouldn’t, was how much more emotional and, and affecting it can be doing first person rather than third.

Sarah: Oh yes.

Mara: Because in third person you’re saying this happened to this person –

Sarah: Right.

Mara: – in first person you’re saying, This happened to me.

Sarah: Yeah.

Mara: And saying it out loud – I remember the first time I had to, I, I did a scene where there was, you know, an assault, and it was in first person, I –

Sarah: Oof!

Mara: – I had to, like, get up and go take a breath afterwards, and now I remind myself every time that I’m doing a first-person book that I need to relax, I need to ground myself, I need to make sure that I’m okay – [laughs] –

Sarah: Yeah.

Mara: – and check in with myself, because it, it is hard! It is hard to say the things that happen to you. So –

Sarah: And, and your brain doesn’t always recognize the difference, right? Your brain is hearing your voice –

Mara: No, it doesn’t!

Sarah: – in your head say, I am experiencing this right now, so –

Mara: Yeah.

Sarah: And, and acting is going to bring up physical reactions to the things that you’re saying, because that’s part of acting, so you add that on top of your brain going, I’m sorry, what’s happening right now? What is happening?

Mara: Yeah.

Sarah: What?

Mara: So you need to, you need to be very, very careful with that, I think.

Sarah: How do you, how do you ground yourself? What are some of the techniques you use?

Mara: I mean, I’m an anxious person in general, so I’ve, I have a lot of breathing exercises that I can kind of pull out because they’re things that I, I do. My sister has gotten me a lot more into meditation. I’m, I, I’m not great at meditating just sitting there not doing anything, because that’s very hard for me, so she, she got me into, like, chanting meditation.

Sarah: Mm-hmm!

Mara: So that helps me a lot. That helps ground me a lot, because it gives my mind something to do, you know, and she, she said – you know, and sometimes the chants are just like, you know, just kind of, you know, kind of silly affirmations, and sometimes they’re in another language, and sometimes they’re more spiritual than others, and sometimes they’re just, you know, grounding, you know, words to, to do that, and I think that really helps me focus, and that really helps me relax. You know, listening to that, listening to something like that in the car on the way over to wherever I’m working, that can really help. That kind of thing. That, that helps a lot! And, and that’s something that I do more and more, and I notice wonderful benefits – [laughs] – from doing, so that’s something that I definitely keep doing.

Sarah: Sue wanted me to ask how you approach narrating multiple points of view, which I’m sure relates to the, you know, switching on and off of emotions and physical reactions as you switch characters. Are you thinking about each character’s background and motivation as you might while you’re acting?

Mara: You are, yeah. I, I think that you are. I think that for me it is, a lot of it is in the voice. I think especially when I started and, and still, this still happens, sometimes I focused too much on the voice instead of the character –

Sarah: Oh, interesting!

Mara: – and that is the most important thing, because I would be doing, if I were, say if I were doing a masculine voice, I would be really low, I’d be really deep, or, or, or I’d kind of be in the back of the throat. You know, I’d kind of be –

Sarah: Yep.

Mara: – I’d kind of be more like that, and that can hurt your voice.

Sarah: Oh, just a little.

Mara: So I have to remind myself – yes! [Laughs] Doing it all day long? So I had to remind myself that this is not, this is theater; it’s not film or animation where you really have to sound different, you really have to look different. This is, it’s evocative. You know, you, you have to evoke the character.

So that’s something that I have to remind myself: Okay, well, it’s about their motivation; it’s about what they want; it’s about who they are. And I tell myself, You have to keep that in mind, because that is more important than getting their voice exactly right every time. They’re going to know, people are going to know, and there’re people who don’t do voices at all, where every character sounds the same. I like to do voices because I think that it differentiates people –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Mara: – but I, it really is sort of getting into their mindset; sometimes it is adopting a different physicality, but a lot of times it’s their, it’s, it’s sort of like, yeah, what guides them in life? What is, what is their affect? Are they a very cool, calm person? Are they very anxious? Are they, you know, very perky? Are they this or that? And sometimes –

Basil: Meow.

Mara: – sometimes I, I think of people. I, I think of –

Basil: Meow.

Mara: Okay, I hear you.

Sarah: Is that –

Mara: One of the cats is bringing me his mouse.

Sarah: Is that Freya?

Mara: Not a real mouse!

Sarah: Which cat?

Mara: No, this is my cat’s, this is my sister’s cat who’s, who’s with me right now. She just moved, and he’s going to be moving in soon. Yeah, good boy! His name is either Basil [Bay-zl] or Basil [Baa-zl].

Sarah: Whichever –

Mara: He’s famous on the internet. [Laughs]

Sarah: Hey, handsome! Look at you!

Mara: He’s very handsome. He is a black and white tuxedo cat, and she has, like, Instagram and Twitter accounts for him, and people love him on there. Good job, Basil! Thanks for bringing me your toy mousy.

But yeah, you, you, it really is – and it’s fun, though, because it’s all characters – I mean, this is what I’ve always loved about voice work – it’s all characters that you’ll never get to play. I’m never going to get to play a, a dashing male main character in real life. I’m never going to get to play, you know, the beautiful princess. I’m never going to get to play somebody who’s, who’s evil, somebody who’s a child, somebody who’s – you know, these are all characters that people aren’t going to give to me if they just look at me. So I’m, I’m limited, I like that I’m not limited by my looks –

Sarah: Yeah!

Mara: – and my age.

Sarah: And the addition of a, an, not an affect in a false sense, but just a minor alteration to someone’s voice that you consistently do is a way to build that character, too, because I’ve listened to so many audiobooks, sometimes just the, the quirk of a voice begins to build the character too.

Mara: Yeah! For me, honestly, keeping somebody in mind is, is very helpful, I think? Yeah, sometimes I’ll think of somebody like Kristin Chenoweth; sometimes for a male main character I’ll think, I’ll think of like a movie or TV show that I’ve seen a million times. You know, I’ll think of John Hamm in Mad Men; I’ll think of, you know, Cary Elwes in The Princess Bride. You know, and, and a lot of times, like sometimes with it, if I’m doing a male main character who is really not my type?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Mara: [Laughs] I’ll have to think of somebody who, you know, I’ll, I’ll, I’ll think of it like there was one book that I did recently where the, they talked all, in all, they kept talking about how big and buff this guy was, and that is not my type.

Sarah: No.

Mara: When I am attracted to men, I am attracted to these eccentric little dandies, I would call them?

Sarah: Mm-hmm!

Mara: You know? One of my friends once called me a Duckie chaser?

Sarah: [Laughs]

Mara: Yeah. Duckie from Pretty in Pink? Like –

Sarah: Duckie chaser!

Mara: – all the queer-coded, you know, men. When I am attracted to men, it’s usually those. So I had to think; I was like, Okay, who, who is big and muscular and masculine but still, like, really beautiful? And I was like, Okay, maybe Jason Momoa; maybe –

Sarah: Okay.

Mara: – you know, somebody like that. And, and I’m like, Okay, I can see the, the attraction in that. So that’s some substitution – [laughs] – going on for all of you theater kids out there. I mean, I don’t really have, like, one method for acting. I have a lot of different methods for acting, and, and it is, for me, kind of whatever works?

Sarah: Yeah.

Mara: And I think a lot of times finding it in the voice and finding it in the body and finding what these people’s motivations are in, in the moment is really what, what gets me into them.

Sarah: Speaking of muscular and buff men –

Mara: [Laughs]

Sarah: – not to sound like a complete creeper, but recently you were chatting on Bluesky, which –

Mara: Yeah.

Sarah: – which is I, I’m, I’m begin-, I really am beginning to, like, feel happy there. And you were talking about romance tropes that you love!

Mara: I was!

Sarah: And I did not know that you were a romance reader! Have you been reading romance a long time?

Mara: Not very long, actually. I, I think that I, I had a very severe case of Not Like Other Girls in middle and high school?

Sarah: [Laughs]

Mara: So I, I, you know, it’s, it’s in remission now, but I had to, I think that I was afraid – and this, you know, gets into the fact that I was raised by a single father and three older brothers and a very judgmental, very judgmental extended family, and I always felt like there was a lot of judgment on me anyway, because the world knew who I was. So I was very committed to being a tomboy. I was very committed; I, I thought that I didn’t like girly things, which everybody who knows me knows that that’s a total lie. Like, I’m, I’m not, I, I’m still not, like, super girly. Like, my sister is, is into everything feminine; she’s very feminine. I, I think that at the time I was very nervous about it. But I will say that anything, you know, pornographic kind of was overwhelming for me at that age, and it was not anything I was interested in, so a lot of what, you know, my friends and I used to do is we used to, like, do dramatic readings of romance books.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Mara: And we would go to the bookstore, and I would pick out, I would find the sex scenes in the romance books, I would fold down the corners and put them back on the shelf – [laughs] – at all the bookstores. But I would never admit to anybody, you know, to ac-, that I actually read these books. But I did. Of course I did. And, but I think it’s really only recently that I kind of re-fell in love with romance.

I also think at the time there were, I know some people will look at the 2000s as sort of this, like, if not golden, like, silver era of rom-coms, but they really didn’t speak to me. I did not like them; I did not like, you know, How to Lose a Guy in Ten Days, even though it had some of my favorite actors ever in it, like Bebe Neuwirth, you know, who I absolutely adore. It’s, a lot of those movies, I felt, were, were very, they were very strange, and I didn’t like the male characters, and I couldn’t really relate to the girls, and I, I had trouble with that. But I always say that if you think you don’t like something, some, like, whole, something wholeheartedly, some whole genre, some whole art form, you probably would like some of it.

Sarah: Mm-hmm!

Mara: I, I didn’t used to be into mystery books, because I felt a lot of times that the, the solving of mysteries, a lot of them felt kind of contrived to me? I was like, How would you even accomplish that? That just doesn’t make sense!

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Mara: So, but I think that what it was was that I just read a lot of bad mystery.

Sarah: Yep!

Mara: If you read a good mystery, it’s absolutely wonderful, and if you watch a good mystery movie, it’s, you know, it’s absolutely fantastic, and it’s, it’s fun. So I think that that was something that for a while I was like, Maybe I don’t really like this genre, and then I was like, Well, no, actually, I think I do like this genre; it’s just –

Sarah: These were not the ones.

Mara: – depends on what it is.

Sarah: Yeah.

Mara: Yeah! So I, I think I kind of felt that way about romance. I, I – but I did definitely read romance when I was younger, and now I’ve, I mean, I’ve done like five romance books in a row, audiobook-wise, and it’s really fun to have an excuse to read, to read romance audiobooks?

Sarah: Multiple times, too! [Laughs]

Mara: Oh yeah. And I’ve become friends with famous romance narrators, which is very, very fun.

Sarah: Now, I men-, I know you mentioned on Bluesky that you love grumpy/sunshine as a trope.

Mara: I do, yeah.

Sarah: What are some of your faves?

Mara: Well, I think that I like grumpy/sunshine – maybe this is a bit pretentious, but I feel like I’m kind of both grumpy and sunshine?

Sarah: No, I think it makes total sense! Yeah.

Mara: Most people are, and I’ve always been attracted in my life, both romantically and friend-wise, to people who are very, very sunshiny. All my favorite characters are the sweet, wholesome ones. I’ve never been attracted to, to cynics.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Mara: I, and maybe it’s ‘cause I, I don’t like cynicism in myself?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Mara: But, like, I have, let’s see, do I have my, my earnest characters that I love playlist? Let’s see: Dr. Zoidberg, Cher Horowitz, Rose from The Golden Girls, Sparrow in Dykes to Watch Out For, Da Mayor in Do the Right Thing –

Sarah: Yep!

Mara: – Marla and her mom on Derry Girls, Alexis Rose, Christine Baskets, Martin Prince. You know, all of these characters that I, I really love, those are all of my favorite kind of characters that either they, they warm my heart, or they are the ones who make me laugh the most, you know?

Sarah: And they also have an element, a lot of them have an element of femme to them as well.

Mara: They do! That’s a good point. That’s a good point. There’s, there’s kind of a beauty to, to them that I really like. So –

Sarah: I always thought Rose Nylund was so beautiful. Like, I know that, like –

Mara: Yeah.

Sarah: – Blanche was very dramatic, but I always just thought Rose was just, like, so charmingly, beautifully dressed every episode.

Mara: Yeah. She really is, and there’s, there’s just a sweetness about her.

Sarah: Yes.

Mara: You, you get why, you get why – who is it? I know there’s a lesbian character who comes onto the show and falls in love with her? And I was like, I was like, Yeah, I get it. [Laughs]

Sarah: Totally! Oh, a hundred percent, I get it!

Mara: I get it.

Sarah: Yeah!

Mara: So, so, like, working on, I would say, like, narrating Mrs., Mrs. Nash’s Ashes was a real delight for me, because that is a grumpy/sunshine romance novel, and, and I, I, I loved that. I love the, the sort of, the, the warming over of it, and I love the, the warming over and the winning over of that character. Like, you know, I think I mentioned this earlier, but, like, like my favorite Alanis Morissette song is “Head Over Feet” –

Sarah: Yep!

Mara: – because it’s, it’s the sort of defrosting – [laughs] –

Sarah: Yep.

Mara: – of an icy heart? And I think that that’s really sweet, and it’s really hopeful. So that’s one trope I really like.

One trope I cannot get into? I do love, like, best friends to lovers –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Mara: – but I get very bored when there is nothing standing in the way of these people getting together, and there is no reason for me, for, for them not to get together?

Sarah: Yeah.

Mara: And they just won’t.

Sarah: Yeah.

Mara: You know? If, if –

Sarah: And why is that?

Mara: – they already know –

Sarah: ‘Cause it’s only page 114! That’s why!

Mara: Yeah, exactly! And, and, but if there’s nothing in the way, like, you know, if you watch When Harry Met Sally, there are things getting in the way of their relationship.

Sarah: All the time.

Mara: Either there’s other people, or there’s them not knowing if they actually are compatible, if they actually can stand each other. You know, it’s, it’s, there is, there are things in the way. But when it’s just, We’re best friend; we love each other; we’re, we’re great; but we just don’t want to ruin it; I’m like, Yeah, I, I, I don’t know about that. But I also think that that’s a very heterosexual problem, because – [laughs] – I think most, most, you know, LGBTQ people I know are like, the way that they make their friends is by dating them sometimes? And you just remain friends.

Sarah: Sometimes in that order; sometimes in the reverse order; sometimes both.

Mara: Exactly!

Sarah: Yeah.

Mara: Exactly, but you remain friends.

Sarah: The striations, yeah, the striation between –

Mara: Yeah.

Sarah: – romantic love and friendship love is a very heteronormative com-, concept? The –

Mara: I think it is!

Sarah: Yeah.

Mara: Yeah, I, I, I think that it is, and I also think that, like, I look at, you know, my nieces and nephews now, and I think that they hang out with people of all genders now. Like, like –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Mara: – you know, as teenagers, and they, they are friends, you know, like, the boys are, are friends with girls, and the girls are friends with boys, and there’s a little bit more mixing than, I think, you know, you probably got in the ‘70s and ‘80s where it was very much you hang out with your boys, you hang out with your girls. And I’m not saying that, like, you know, like, yeah, of course, like, people who aren’t male should have, like, their own spaces and, you know, I think men should be friends with men too, but I do think that keeping them very separate can lead to this sort of mys-, increase of mystery, and I think that that mystery doesn’t always help them – [laughs] –

Sarah: No, it doesn’t.

Mara: – later on.

Sarah: I have some grumpy/sunshine recommendations for you if you are interested.

Mara: Oh, I would love them. Yeah –

Sarah: Okay.

Mara: – I would love them. Oh! I also like, I will say I do like enemies-to-lovers. There is a thing – I’m sorry, I do love the, the fast-talking, you know, the, the fast-talking 1930s Katherine Hepburn/Spencer Tracy kind of thing. That’s –

Sarah: Yep!

Mara: – that’s something that, that gets me every time. I struggle with fake relationship, because I think that that would be very hard for me, and for some reason I just can’t suspend my disbelief enough? It, I guess, it’s kind of embarrassing, but sometimes when I’m reading a book I think to myself, Okay, could I plausibly do these things? If it’s, like, somebody who’s solving a mystery or something I’m like, Okay, given all the information and given, if I had all the information and all of these character’s abilities, would I be able to solve it? Would I be able to figure it out?

Sarah: Yeah.

Mara: And if I can’t, then I’m kind of taken out of it if I can’t plausibly believe that. And I feel that a little bit with, with fake romance, too. Like, okay, could I plausibly do this? Could I plausibly, you know, would I want to do this? And I just don’t think that I ever would. I think that I’m too much of a loudmouth?

[Laughter]

Mara: That said, some, my friend has given me some that, that I want to read. I think there’s one called Written in the Stars, which is a, a, yeah, a very cute – is that on the list?

Sarah: On my list! On my list! Yes!

Mara: Yeah! One of my best friends gave me that book recently, and I really want to read it.

Sarah: Oh yes.

Mara: ‘Cause I was like – and it’s funny because I’m definitely like the skeptic type? I tend to end up getting attracted to, especially if they’re, they’re women or feminine people, I tend to get attracted to the, the sort of hippie types sometimes?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Mara: I tell people that my type is either, like on Stardew Valley I say it’s either, it’s either Maru or it’s Emily or Leah. Some people in the audience will get that.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Mara: So my type is either the, the, you know, the scientist type –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Mara: – like I always tell people Cosima from Orphan Black, once she gets rid of the dreads, is kind of my type.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Mara: Or I also like these, you know, these sort of like earthy, hippie, new age girls.

Sarah: Yep.

Mara: So the idea of like a skeptic dating a new age girl is very, very familiar to me. [Laughs]

Sarah: Okay, so here are some books, and the first one of course is, not only is it a fake relationship, but it’s a fake relationship that takes place between actors on a London stage.

Mara: Oh, that sounds fun.

Sarah: It’s called Act Like It by Lucy Parker. It is one of my all-time favorite books; I’ve probably read it six or seven times. And the setup is that the hero and heroine are both in a play on the West End, and she has just been dumped terribly by her co-star, who she was in sort of a rebound relationship with, and she found out that he was cheating on her from like a tabloid. She has to fall in love with him every night on stage, and it’s just miserable?

Mara: Ohhh.

Sarah: But the other actor who is on the stage, at one point they left a party together, and the resulting picture of them leaving at that same time generated a lot of interest in the play, and the play is not doing so well, so the manager says, Okay, I will do all of these things for you: I will make donations to your charity; I will make sure that you, you know, you, all of the box office for this period of time goes to your charity, if you two will just pretend to date each other for publicity for like two weeks. They do not like each other. And –

Mara: Yeah.

Sarah: – he’s, like, acting royalty, and she’s a newer actress, and there’s, she, she’s very sunshine, he’s extremely grumpy, and there’s wonderful dialogue and tension because they both spend a lot of time together in character and then have to get to know each other as themselves? Which is like my favorite, it’s one of my favorite forms of tension, the public and the private self.

Mara: I, I love that. Well, yeah, that’s something that I can definitely relate to. I also think that it’s possible, I think that probably I read a lot of fake relationship romance that, that didn’t resonate with me, and so for a while, you know, I, I got the, I got the ick from, you know – [laughs] – from, from How to Lose a Guy in 10 Days and movies like that.

Sarah: Right.

Mara: Although I will say, I mean, although 10 Things I Hate About You is technically fake relationship and it’s great, so yeah, there, there are some great ones there.

Sarah: Well.

Mara: So I’m very open to, I’m, I’m very open to reading more, I will say. My sister and I got into an argument probably I think last year where we debated very deeply, she said she didn’t like enemies-to-lovers, and I said that I didn’t like, I didn’t like fake relationships, and we, we, we got into an argument, ‘cause she said she loves it, and she doesn’t like enemies-to-lovers, and we got into an argument, and so I started to kind of see the benefits. She, she’s a good arguer.

Sarah: Yeah.

Mara: It’s funny because there are a lot of romance books that I’ve been narrating lately that I feel like she would really like, but I think it would be weird for her to listen to me reading them?

[Laughter]

Sarah: You need like a filter on Instagram? Like, you know, you have a filter that you can change…

Mara: Yeah! But she –

Sarah: You just need a voice filter. [Laughs]

Mara: But she’s, she’s a visual artist, so she listens to a lot of audiobooks while she’s working, so that’s how she does, she, she gets most of her, her stuff anyway. You know, she’ll, she’ll listen to audiobooks while she’s painting.

Sarah: I’m just imagining her painting, and she’s listening to you, and she goes, Damn it, Mara – nope, that’s not actually her. [Laughs]

Mara: Yeah. [Laughs] She’s like, Yeah, that would be a little too weird for me, I think, and I was like, Yeah. I’ve had friends of mine say, You know, I love audiobooks, but I don’t think I could listen to you doing a sex scene? And I was like, Yeah, I understand that.

Sarah: Fair!

Mara: I mean, I have enough actor friends that I’ve seen do things on stage that it’s not that big of a deal for me? But, you know, I get it. I get it if that’s not comfortable for you.

Sarah: For sure! Do you like fantasy with magic, that kind of thing?

Mara: I do. I do.

Sarah: Okay.

Mara: I’m, that’s something that I’ve gotten back into lately. I, I’ve read a couple of, of romantasy – as the TikTok teens say these days –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Mara: – books, and, and I was like, Oh my gosh, this takes me back to my, my preteen days of, like, reading Bruce Coville and reading –

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Mara: – you know, all of these –

Sarah: It’s an old genre.

Mara: – all of these books about – yeah, and, and Madeleine L’Engle and, and, you know, Jane Yolen and all of these, these things, and I, I really had a soft spot for fantasy when I was a kid. So I, that really, it, it, it’s nice; it kind of takes me back to, to it. So yeah! So what was your other recommendation?

Sarah: I have a queer, fantasy, romance, historical trilogy for you. It’s by an author –

Mara: Okay.

Sarah: – named Freya Marske. The first one is called A Marvellous Light. It is –

Mara: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – so the first two, the first one is men; the second one is two women, one of whom, I believe, is an actress – yes! One of whom is an actress – and the third is two men who are also introduced in the first one, so by the time you get to the third you’re like, These two must kiss!

Mara: Yeah. Yeah.

Sarah: But there’s a magical bureaucracy, and one of the characters in the first book is hired to be the intermediary, the civil service liaison between the magic society and the government, and he has no idea about any of it. He got placed in the job by mistake. There’s a, there’s cursing, and there’s danger, and there’s, you know, it’s, it’s Edwardian, so there’s a, a certain sort of structural formality that is starting to break at the seams, given the time period? And there’s a lot of people –

Mara: Oh, I love that.

Sarah: Yeah! Yeah.

Mara: I love, I love stories –

Sarah: Yes!

Mara: I, one, one of my favorite genres is coming of age or love stories set in times of political or social upheaval?

Sarah: Oh yes!

Mara: I love that. It’s, yeah. I, I absolutely love that; that’s one of my favorite genres.

Sarah: Absolutely. So can you share, if, if it’s possible, what are you reading right now that you would like people to know about?

Mara: I mean, I, I feel like I’m kind of a poser, because a lot of the romances that I’ve been reading and listening to are the big ones like Talia Hibbert and Red, White & Royal Blue and things like that. Although I will say that the audio narration for those book are absolutely fantastic. I, I wanted to listen to more. Like, I listened to, I, I think I was babysitting my friend’s kid at the time, and I remember listening to Red, White & Royal Blue and being like, Oh, I don’t know if I should be listening to this while I’m babysitting –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Mara: – because God forbid my AirPods get disconnected? [Laughs]

Sarah: And all of a sudden every speaker in the house is…

Mara: Yeah, yeah! The, the, the baby’s going to wake up to some very interesting stuff. But Ramon de Ocampo does a, a wonderful, wonderful job with that.

Let’s see, which – well, some of them are books that I’m going to be doing. Like, I’ve been reading Helena, or is it Helena Greer’s books about, yeah, the Christmas tree farm. I’ve been reading her books. That one is –

Sarah: I loved the first one so, so much.

Mara: Yeah! And so I’m going to be narrating the second one!

Sarah: Hey, that’s awesome!

Mara: Yeah, which is super fun. There’s also other books that I’ve, I’ve done, but I can’t quite talk about yet?

Oh, let’s see, what else have I – oh, You Made a Fool of Death with Your Beauty.

Sarah: Oh my gosh!

Mara: Yeah, I just, I just got that, and that book is amazingly spicy, and Bahni Turpin is fantastic. You know, she is – I mean, everybody knows she’s like the Meryl Streep or the Viola Davis of audiobooks.

I, I went back and I actually read some of the – because when I was first getting more into audiobooks, my mentor was telling me, Oh yeah, this is, these are some good people, people to listen to. So I went back and I listened to a lot of the like 2000s books like The Undomestic Goddess by Katherine Kellgren and books like that, and that one really surprised me. I, I didn’t think I would like it, but I, I very much did.

I recently read like a bunch of books about people growing up in cults, because people growing up with strange childhoods I think is something that resonates with me because I had a pretty strange childhood? I reread some, I reread some interesting memoirs. Like, I reread Viv Albertine’s Clothes, Clothes, Clothes. Music, Music, Music. Boys, Boys, Boys. Just finished the Neapolitan novels a couple months back, which blew my mind; Elena Ferrante’s books, which I think are some of the – they’re very good books about growing up, you know. Like, they’re about growing up a girl; they are very good books about that. What else am I reading? I’m listening to the audiobook of The Last Slave Ship by my friend Kevin R. Free, who is absolutely lovely.

I’m, I’m always listening to and reading, you know – I actually, I really liked doing the audiobook for Mrs. Nash’s Ashes, so I reread it on the plane to, to Belfast and back. I reread it because that was a book that I actually really loved. I’m lucky, because I’ve got to do, I’ve gotten to do a lot of audiobooks that are books that I really loved.

Sarah: That is really cool.

Mara: There haven’t been many that I did not enjoy, that I didn’t think, Oh, this is something that I would not want to read on my own.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Mara: Although there are a lot that I think I wouldn’t necessarily seek out on my own? But I, but I’m glad that I did. I’m glad that I got to, to do that.

And I will say, yeah, if you have any questions about narrating the spicier scenes? Those actually, that’s not as hard as you think, but I will say what is difficult about narrating spicy scenes is when you have to do pickups?

Sarah: Yes! [Laughs]

Mara: So it, they, it’s just part, because so many of these books are, are so well written that it’s just part of – and that’s the thing: I don’t think we give romance authors enough credit for how they have to deal with structure and how they have to, the way they have to do these things, and I’ve always thought like, you know, in another life – or maybe in this life – I could probably like romance because I am a very analytical person who likes structure, and you usually know how it’s going to end, but –

Sarah: There’s absolutely a structure, yeah!

Mara: – but it’s, it’s like a roller coaster.

Sarah: Mm-hmm!

Mara: You know, you know the roller coaster’s going to end, but it’s really fun in the meantime!

Sarah: That’s right!

Mara: So pacing and action and, and all of that, usually the, the pacing and the tension of it usually makes the, the spicier scenes feel very, very real and very easy. That said, though, it is very hard to get into the middle of it?

Sarah: Oh yeah!

Mara: There’s one book that I did, I think, where we were doing pickups, which is where you go back and you record lines that you missed, or maybe there was a sound in the background on, and so you go back and you do that. So, so I was looking at all the pickups that I had, and they were just things like, So-and-so, he said. So-and-so this. And then there was, there was a line that was something, I think it was something along the lines of Give me your, you know –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Mara: – and so it was very hard to go from, like –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Mara: – to go from, like, We were on our way, to Give me your – and –

[Laughter]

Mara: – you know, like, Oh my God, I want it! Like, really –

Sarah: Yep.

Mara: – doing that in, in the middle of, you know, in the middle of the afternoon and without any context. I will say that is difficult. [Laughs]

Sarah: That is very, very tricky.

Mara: Spicy scenes aren’t, spicy scenes are, are, are fun to do, and they’re just, they usually are not very difficult, but I, I will say that it is difficult – [laughs] – to get back into that mindset –

Sarah: Right!

Mara: – in the middle of nothing for one or two of those lines.

Sarah: Absolutely! Out of nowhere, just give me your large, turgid – yeah, no, mm-mm.

Mara: Yeah, yeah. That can be difficult. [Laughs]

Sarah: Yeah.

Thank you so much for doing this interview. It has been such a delight –

Mara: Yes!

Sarah: – to talk to you. Where can people find you if you wish to be found?

Mara: They can find me @marawilson on Instagram and on Bluesky. I’m, I’m trying to slow down with the social media posting because I don’t think it’s that great for me, but I, I do like to, you know, keep up with people. I am still on Twitter, but I don’t know how much longer I’m going to be on there –

Sarah: Yeah.

Mara: – ‘cause it’s a mess! So –

Sarah: Yes. Kind of horrible.

Mara: – I think that it is kind of horrible, but, and people are nicer on Instagram and Bluesky anyway.

Sarah: Yeah.

Mara: You can find me at those places. I do have a Substack that I have not updated in a very long time, because I’ve been writing other things and working on other things, but I do plan on getting back to it soon. And it is mara.substack.com, and it is called “Shan’t We Tell the Vicar?” because it’s about, every time I post I come up with a title for a, a fake British TV show?

Sarah: Brilliant.

Mara: Because British TV shows always have the strangest names ever, often nothing to do with the actual show?

Sarah: Yes.

Mara: So, and, and I’ve always loved that about them, so yeah. It’s things like I’m Just Here to Do The Hoovering or –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Mara: – you know, Pippa Meets the Poors or, or Shouldn’t Be Running a Surgery! So yeah, that’s been very fun.

[music]

Sarah: And that brings us to the end of this week’s episode. Thank you, thank you very, very much to Mara Wilson for agreeing to do this interview, and to Freya and Basil for making the conversation so completely chaotic.

I will have links to all of the books that we discussed and Mara’s Substack at the headquarters of the show notes, which is smartbitchestrashybooks.com/Podcast under episode number 590.

Speaking of episodes, in recent episodes I asked for reviews because all of my reviews on Apple had disappeared, and it was super annoying, and I didn’t know what happened, and they just did not stick around, but oh my goodness, did you guys come through! Thank you so much! I am deeply honored by the reviews that you’ve left. This one from Katie BDMN made me so very happy. Katie says:

>> Awesome podcast for readers. I rarely review, but I’ve listened to and loved this podcast for years, and it’s one of the few Patreons I contribute to.

Thank you!

>> If you love reading romance or are adjacent, you are in for a huge treat, and your TBR pile will grow exponentially.

That is very true. We have a lot of books in this show. Thank you, Katie, and thank you to everyone who has left a review. It is such an honor, and it really does help so very much for people to find the podcast. And the good news is when they find it, they have lots to choose from. Like, so much – [laughs] – so much to choose from!

As always, I end with a terrible joke. This joke comes from Bull in our Discord. Hi, Bull! Hold on to your butts, ‘cause you’re going to groan.

Did you hear about the new Halloween/Cold War thriller crossover?

Yeah, Halloween/Cold War thriller crossover.

It’s called Pumpkin Spies.

Bull, that was genius! [Laughs] It’s so bad, I love it so much! Pumpkin Spies! Thank you, Bull!

And thank you for hanging out with me. It is really an honor to keep you company.

On behalf of all of the cats, who are snoring, we wish you the very best of reading. Have a wonderful weekend, and we’ll see you back here next week. 

Smart Podcast, Trashy Books is part of the Frolic Podcast Network. You can find more outstanding podcasts to subscribe to at frolic.media/podcasts.

Pumpkin Spies! [Laughs]

[end of groovy music]