- Writing a horny heroine’s POV
- Dual timelines
- Celebrity profiles
- Life as a celebrity and managing a fandom
- Things that do, and do not twitch
Elissa is an extremely fluent fan of the romance genre, and we talk a lot about romance conventions we love and loathe, and what it means to subvert and undermine some very familiar dynamics, characters, and tropes.
If you love celebrity profiles, the narratives that construct fame, and behind the scenes details, you’ll like this book, and you’ll probably really like this conversation. Please join us!
Thank you to Melissa Folds and Courtney Mocklow at Penguin RandomHouse for setting up this interview!
So – what’s your favorite celebrity profile? Do you follow celebrity gossip narratives? What sites are your faves? Email me – I would love to know. I personally love the FauxMoi subreddit (not the instagram feed itself). Tell me yours?
…
Music: purple-planet.com
❤ Read the transcript ❤
↓ Press Play
This podcast player may not work on Chrome and a different browser is suggested. More ways to listen →
Here are the books we discuss in this podcast:
You can find Elissa Sussman on her website, ElissaSussman.com.
Ready for all the profiles we talked about in this episode? GET READY!
- Anne Helen Petersen on Jennifer Garner for BuzzFeed
- Anne Helen Petersen on Jennifer Garner again for BuzzFeed
- Anne Helen Petersen on Angelina Jolie for BuzzFeed
- Petersen again on Jolie and Brad Pitt for BuzzFeed
- Edith Zimmerman’s profile in GQ of Chris Evans
- Taffy Brodesser-Akner’s profile in GQ of Tom Hiddleston
- Jessica Pressler’s profile in GQ of Channing Tatum
- Anna Peele’s profile of Miles Teller for Esquire
And we also mentioned Shana’s review of A Lady for a Duke.
If you like the podcast, you can subscribe to our feed, or find us at Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows!
❤ More ways to sponsor:
Sponsor us through Patreon! (What is Patreon?)
What did you think of today's episode? Got ideas? Suggestions? You can talk to us on the blog entries for the podcast or talk to us on Facebook if that's where you hang out online. You can email us at [email protected] or you can call and leave us a message at our Google voice number: 201-371-3272. Please don't forget to give us a name and where you're calling from so we can work your message into an upcoming podcast.
Thanks for listening!
Transcript
❤ Click to view the transcript ❤
[music]
Sarah Wendell: Hello and thank you for letting me into your eardrums. I’m Sarah Wendell, and this is episode number 515 of Smart Podcast, Trashy Books. My guest today is Elissa Sussman, and Elissa is joining me to talk about her book Funny You Should Ask, and we are also going to talk about many things: writing a horny heroine’s point of view, celebrity profiles, how to manage a fandom when you’re a celebrity, and things that do and do not twitch. Elissa is a very fluent fan of the romance genre, and we talk a lot about what romance conventions we love and that we dislike and what it means to subvert and undermine some very familiar dynamics and tropes.
I want to thank Melissa Folds and Courtney Mocklow at Penguin Random House for setting up this interview.
I also want to say hello and thank you to the members of our Patreon community who just joined recently. Hello to Kelli, Rachel, Clay, G, Kristin, and Alyssa. Thank you so much for joining and supporting the show!
If you value what we do, well, have a look at patreon.com/SmartBitches. Pledges start at a dollar a month, and every pledge makes sure that every episode has a transcript, which is hand-compiled by garlicknitter. Thank you so very much for your support, and thank you for listening.
This episode is brought to you by my favorite shoes, Rothy’s! I know you’ve heard me talk about Rothy’s before, and I do indeed love them, but I also want to warn you that if you buy a pair and start wearing them, people will ask you, Are those Rothy’s? And then you get compliments, and everything about this is great. I get so many compliments on my Rothy’s, regardless of what style I’m wearing. Sometimes it’s because the color is terrific – I have very pink Driving Moccasins that I love so much! – and sometimes it’s because they look cute, which they really do. They’re effortlessly comfortable; they’re extremely stylish: two of my favorite things. Rothy’s work great with every outfit, and there is a style for every situation. Most of all, when they get dirty I chuck ‘em in the washing machine; they come out looking like new. I love these shoes a lot, not only because of how they look but how long they last. Your new favorite shoes are waiting: discover the versatile styles you can wear absolutely anywhere, and get twenty dollars off your first purchase at rothys.com/SARAH. That’s R-O-T-H-Y-S dot com slash SARAH for twenty dollars off your first order.
This podcast is brought to you in part by Ritual, a vegan-friendly multivitamin that is delivered to your door! Ritual is formulated with high quality nutrients in bioavailable forms that your body can actually use. Ritual contains everything my body needs, like vitamin D and omega-3 DHA; it’s all in one place. I like Ritual because they never make me feel nauseated, and I like knowing what I’m putting in my body and why, and the packaging tells me literally everything. Their transparent supply chain details where each ingredient comes from and why it’s there. I really like a nerdy vitamin. You won’t find sugars, GMOs, major allergens, synthetic fillers, or artificial colorants. I also love how easy it is with Ritual: my multivitamins are delivered to my door every month, free shipping always. I can start, snooze, cancel anytime, and I don’t have to think about refills or buying more; they just show up right when I need them. These are supplements you can trust taking. Ritual is offering my listeners ten percent off your first three months when you visit ritual.com/SARAH to start your Ritual today. That’s ritual.com/SARAH.
This episode is brought to you in part by Thrive Causemetics. I recently realized that I haven’t worn makeup in like two and a half years, and most of what I own had expired – yikes! But thankfully I found Thrive Causemetics to replace my essentials. I started with mascara – always replace your mascara if you don’t know how old it is – and I can tell you the Thrive Causemetics Liquid Lash Extensions Mascara is fabulous: no clumps, no flakes on my eyeglasses, and it washes off so easily with warm water. And it doesn’t irritate my eyes at all, and my lashes looked incredible. I paired it with the Brilliant Eye Brightener, and I looked like I knew what I was doing with eye makeup. Spoiler: I don’t actually know what I’m doing with eye makeup, but this stuff made me look so great! Plus, for every purchase Thrive Causemetics donates to help women thrive. They have a Bigger Than Beauty program that donates products and funds to over two hundred nonprofit giving partners. Now is a great time to try Thrive Causemetics for yourself: right now you can get fifteen percent off your first order when you visit thrivecausemetics.com/SPTB. That’s Thrive CAUSEmetics: C-A-U-S-E-M-E-T-I-C-S dot com slash SPTB for fifteen percent off your first order.
The episode is brought to you in part by Prose. One of the ways that I have been taking care of myself in the past few years has been caring for my hair, and I’m sure you’ve heard me talking about Prose, which is the world’s most personalized hair care. First there’s a quiz – you know I love a quiz – and Prose has given over a million consultations. My results created a custom blend that has made my hair softer and shinier, and the waves are more defined even when my hair is really short. And because I get to choose my own scent, it smells really good! I love the scent I chose; it makes me so happy every morning. All of their ingredients are sustainably sourced, ethically gathered, and cruelty-free. And if you’re not a hundred percent positive that Prose is the best hair care you’ve ever had, they will take the products back, no questions asked. I even mentioned Prose to the producer of my other podcast, and she made the noise. You know the noise where you go [Gasps] I love Prose! So it’s not just me! Prose is the healthy hair regimen with your name all over it. Take your free in-depth hair consultation; get fifteen percent off your first order today! Go to prose.com/TRASHYBOOKS – that’s P-R-O-S-E dot com slash TRASHYBOOKS – for your free in-depth hair consultation and fifteen percent off.
This episode is brought to you in part by one of my new favorite games, June’s Journey. June’s Journey is a Hidden Object mystery game that several of you have downloaded and started playing with me, so a special hello to the members of the SBTB Romance Club inside June’s Journey, and congrats on another first place finish – go us! June’s Journey is a Hidden Object murder mystery set in the ‘20s. You play as June Parker, an amateur detective investigating a series of mysteries that take her and her friends around the world. You progress through the mystery by gathering clues found in different scenes, and you level up by building and restoring the property on Orchid Island. If you like miniatures you’ll love that part. There are so many different elements, but the heart of the game is the Hidden Object scenes where you try to find as many objects as quickly and as accurately as you can. It is very easy to get caught up trying to beat your last score. I love the puzzle challenges, but I really love how relaxing it is. I use June’s Journey as a reward, and one of my favorite things to do is put on a podcast and play a few chapters. There is a detective in all of us; find your inner detective: download June’s Journey for free today at the Apple App Store or Google Play! And if you’re playing June’s Journey, please let me know how you like it and come join our team.
All right, it is time to start talking gossip. Are you ready to discuss celebrity narratives? Let’s do the podcast.
[music]
Elissa Sussman: So hello! This is Elissa Sussman. I’m the author of the adult novel Funny You Should Ask. I’ve also written the Y, the YA novels Drawn That Way, Stray, and Burn. I’m a lifelong lover of romance. I am a former animation production badass and occasional ghostwriter. I was born and raised in Los Angeles, where I currently live with my husband and our two dogs, Basil and Mozzarella!
Sarah: Okay, these are great cat names, by the way.
Elissa: [Laughs]
Sarah: These are outs- –
Elissa: We have some good food –
Sarah: – -standing.
Elissa: – some good food animal names in our, in our household, yeah.
Sarah: This is an excellent strategy. Well, congratulations on Funny You Should Ask. We are in the same Discord server connected to –
Elissa: Yes.
Sarah: – “Culture Study” and the, the, the Sidechannel Discord, and there’s a whole romance channel, and watching one person after another squee over your book must have been so delightful, ‘cause I was delighted and it is not my book! This is so great!
Elissa: [Laughs] It was, it was so nice. I mean, I love, I love that community. It’s just like the sweetest, most encouraging, most wonderful group of people.
Sarah: It’s very chill. Yes.
Elissa: It’s so chill, and everyone is just like, ever so often someone will pop in and be like, I’m just dipping my toe into romance; like, what should I start with? And everyone’s just like, bing!
Sarah: [Laughs]
Elissa: Let me recommend everything for you! It’s the – ah! – it’s so satisfying and soothing and just wonderful. It’s a safe place.
Sarah: So what will readers who haven’t read Funny You Should Ask, what will they find inside this book?
Elissa: So Funny You Should Ask is a dual-timeline, second-chance romance. It’s about a journalist and her movie star crush. Ten years ago, Chani Horowitz was tasked with writing a profile on Gabe Parker, who is her number-one celebrity crush and about to be the next James Bond, and the first American James Bond. Their interview was supposed to be one afternoon; it lasted the whole weekend, the piece went viral, and readers were left wondering what exactly happened between the two of them.
Sarah: Ah-ha!
Elissa: So it’s a decade later and Chani is a celebrated writer; and Gabe is kind of mounting a comeback after some rough years, some bad press; and the past and the present unfold together as readers figure out what actually happened between the two of them that fateful weekend. Ah! [Laughs]
Sarah: Oooh! So all of this hinges on the profile that she wrote that causes some drama.
Elissa: Yes. [Laughs]
Sarah: And I, I love dual-timeline stories, and there’s a couple different ways to do it, right? Like, you can have the Sliding Doors, where there’s two realities and one of them will win; and then you have –
Elissa: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: – two people doing the same thing at the same time, parallel to each other; and then you have the dual timeline where there’s a past arriving at the present and a present arriving at the future?
Elissa: Yeah.
Sarah: And that’s, that – okay, I don’t even know what day it is, so writing two timelines –
Elissa: [Laughs]
Sarah: – would make my brain explode. Was that, was that fun for you?
Elissa: It was definitely complicated. I did, I mean, I did have, like, I’m very visual in that sense, so I did have to put it together in a way that – like, I used Scrivener –
Sarah: Oh yeah.
Elissa: – to assemble it?
Sarah: I’m a big fan.
Elissa: And I wrote it piecemeal. So I started, like, writing it in bits, and I was like, I don’t really know what this section is or where it’s going to go, and then I would kind of drop ‘em into the outline that I was building and then rewriting and changing and adjusting? When I’d written about fifty percent of it –
Sarah: Yeah.
Elissa: – it sort of felt like, okay I have enough of the –
Sarah: Yeah.
Elissa: – structure –
Sarah: Yeah.
Elissa: – and I can start filling it in, and I can, and I see where everything is assembled and what I need to plus here or minus here or whatever. And that was when it was, like, really fun, when it sort of all just gelled in that way. [Laughs]
Sarah: Do you remember what, what started this book for you, what led you into these characters?
Elissa: I think I wrote the very first section of Chani’s profile first.
Sarah: Oooh!
Elissa: So that was like capturing her, her sense of humor, the kind of tone for the book –
Sarah: Yeah.
Elissa: – ‘cause I was like, I really want this one to be very funny and very horny? Like, I wanted it to be super horny from the beginning? ‘Cause it’s just like, you know, like, I feel like we read romance and – and this is a single POV, so it’s only Chani’s perspective.
Sarah: Right.
Elissa: But usually what we get from, like, male characters is very, very horny. They’re like –
Sarah: Oh, always!
Elissa: – they’re like super, super into her boobs, her butt, her eyes –
Sarah: Yeah.
Elissa: – whatever –
Sarah: Yeah.
Elissa: – and they’re obsessed with it, and I’m like –
Sarah: Lots of dick twitch.
Elissa: So many dick twitches! [Laughs]
Sarah: There, there was a point on Twitter – this was in the early days of Twitter when it was, like, less awful –
Elissa: Right!
Sarah: – I, I turned to my husband and I was like, does your dick actually twitch? And he went –
Elissa: [Laughs]
Sarah: – what the fuck are you talking about? So then I went on Twitter and was like, listen, I need y’all to ask your husbands, partners, and men in your life, does your dick twitch? And it kind of went viral in romance? Like, everyone was like, all of our husbands are wondering why we’re asking about their dick twitches. [Laughs]
Elissa: I –
Sarah: But they all, why do they all twitch?
Elissa: – love it!
Sarah: You’re so right: the male POV is very dick-twitchy!
Elissa: It’s very dick-twitchy, and it’s also, like, there are times when I’ll talk to my husband too, and I’m just like, is this –
Sarah: Does this happen?
Elissa: Yeah, are you, like, is this how you see women for the first time? And he’s just like, no.
Sarah: No.
Elissa: [Laughs] So I think, you know, one of the things I would love to see more of in romance is men that are less sort of like sexually on –
Sarah: Yes.
Elissa: – from the beginning?
Sarah: Yes.
Elissa: You know, and then women who are more sexually on, you know, because I think we, we have, like, we’re not having the dick twitches, but we’re having, like –
Sarah: Ooh!
Elissa: – you know, oh, ohhh, the little, the heart flutters –
Sarah: Yeah!
Elissa: – the sweaty palms? You know, I’m like, women are horny, and they will look at men and find them attractive, and –
Sarah: Yep.
Elissa: – and I think, and I think sometimes there is this, we, we mistake writers writing about lust for, like, love? Especially with –
Sarah: Mm-hmm, yes.
Elissa: – female characters –
Sarah: Yes.
Elissa: – where we have, like, if a woman is – ‘cause I’ve, you know, I’ve read a few where they talk about, like, oh Chani is, like, in insta-love with him, and I’m like, no, she thinks he’s really hot! You know, and –
Sarah: No, her pants are on fire.
Elissa: Her pants are on fire, which is different than her being in love with him.
Sarah: Yeah.
Elissa: And –
Sarah: And I wonder how much of that is tied to this sort of puritanical idea that women don’t have sex until they’re in love. And so if she’s horny –
Elissa: Yeah.
Sarah: – then obviously it’s emotional.
Elissa: Well, yeah! I mean, that’s what we’re taught, and, and even, even romance kind of can perpetuate that.
Sarah: Yes, it can!
Elissa: Yes, it can! And, and I think there is this – I actually think this, this sort of trend that we see in contemporary romance of this idea of, like, the guy is now the first guy to give her an orgasm?
Sarah: Yeah.
Elissa: Is like our version of, like –
Sarah: Virginity.
Elissa: – it’s like the new virginity thing.
Sarah: There’s always a new virginity. For a while it was anal –
Elissa: There’s always – yeah! [Laughs]
Sarah: – and then sometimes it’s like, oh, she’d never given a blowjob, of course, but then she’s a natural.
Elissa: Right.
Sarah: Like, I’m sorry: it’s not difficult.
Elissa: Right, but it’s also, like, not –
Sarah: It’s not corn on the cob, for God’s sake! Come on!
Elissa: [Laughs] Like, do we really need to, like, have it be like an art form?
Sarah: Yeah! Can’t –
Elissa: That –
Sarah: I mean, come on! But you’re right: there’s always a new form of virginity and a, a new way of indicating that this person is the special one, and that –
Elissa: Yes.
Sarah: – that sort of re-, re-emphasis of a lot of puritanical and patriarchal elements is, it, it can be very frustrating, I agree. I love that she’s just openly like, yeah, kind of want to bone him.
Elissa: Yeah! I mean, and that was, like, really, really what I wanted to do with her. I wanted –
Sarah: Yes.
Elissa: – I wanted her to just – because I think with a lot of celebrity/normal person romances –
Sarah: Yes.
Elissa: – which I love, which is, they’re so much fun; it’s such a fun dynamic to play with –
Sarah: Yeah.
Elissa: – but we see a lot of times that it’s the, that she doesn’t know he’s famous –
Sarah: Yeah.
Elissa: – you know? Like, she’s –
Sarah: Yeah.
Elissa: – and it’s, and I feel like that’s a little bit of the variation of, like, Not Like Other Girls?
Sarah: [Laughs]
Elissa: Where she’s, she’s not into, like –
Sarah: She’s not your –
Elissa: – celebrity culture, you know.
Sarah: Yeah. Oh, I don’t understand what, who you, what? You’re famous?
Elissa: Yeah, I don’t, I don’t go to movies like other girls, you know? [Laughs]
Sarah: You’re so right: that is, like, that is a, a hallmark of the Not Like Other Girls motif.
Elissa: Yeah! And so I really wanted to, like, I was like, it would be, like, how awkward and weird would it be for both of them if it’s like, not only does she know who he is, but she has, like, she’s definitely had some fantasies about him.
Sarah: Oh yeah.
Elissa: She’s definitely had some, like, alone time with a few shirtless pictures of him.
Sarah: Oh, for sure!
Elissa: And so –
Sarah: That’s awkward!
Elissa: That’s super awkward! And it’s, you know, and I’m sure he knows that that’s what women think when he, they look at him.
Sarah: I mean –
Elissa: You know, so it’s this kind of fun way to play with that dynamic.
Sarah: For sure! And of course, of course celebrities have to know what kind of angle they’re going for for the marketability of their persona: are you the person that people are going to, like, whack off to? Are you the person that people are going to fantasize is going to, like, run the dishwasher and vacuum the house?
Elissa: Yeah!
Sarah: You know, like, there’s –
Elissa: Yeah, I mean, you look at, like, like, you know, I always think about Leonardo DiCaprio and how aggressively he has made himself hideous in, like, so many of his roles –
Sarah: Yeah.
Elissa: – and I think it’s because he, I mean, understandably, can, I’m sure it’s very uncomfortable to imagine people, like, lusting after you? But I think he also is, you know, ashamed of his fan base a little bit? Like, when his fan base was mostly, like, teen girls and young women –
Sarah: Yeah.
Elissa: – and I think that made him feel like he wasn’t a serious actor if he was being, like, lusted after?
Sarah: And I definitely think that’s an attitude in Hollywood as well, that if your fan base is young girls, then your career is this very narrow area.
Elissa: Yeah.
Sarah: I think Robert Pattinson dealt with the same thing too, and he has chosen some absolutely banana-crackers roles as a result –
Elissa: Yeah.
Sarah: – of trying to break out of Twilight.
Elissa: Yeah. He’s, like, chasing that forever. Like chas-, like running away from it –
Sarah: Oh yeah.
Elissa: – and I think, and I think Anne Helen Petersen, she had this whole series on BuzzFeed about, like, celebrity profile, like, celebrity, not profiles but, like, the way that celebrity images are crafted?
Sarah: Yes, the –
Elissa: And –
Sarah: – the celebrity narrative, abs- – I’m fascinated by celebrity narratives; I think they’re so interesting.
Elissa: Super, super fascinating, and she did such a great job breaking it down, and I think in one of them she talks about, about that sort of thing of, of –
Sarah: Yeah.
Elissa: – men being kind of ashamed, male celebrities, male actors –
Sarah: Yeah.
Elissa: – you know, because all of this just sexism and the patriarchy and all that stuff that, like, you know, we’re ashamed of, you know, if, if your, if your fan base, like you said, like, is young women, then can you really be legitimate?
Sarah: Yeah.
Elissa: You know –
Sarah: So how do your characters approach their – especially your, your hero? How does your hero approach his fandom?
Elissa: I think he is really trying to be respectful of the people that love him and admire him? But is uncomfortable with the attention, for sure. But I think he, I really wanted him to be someone who’s very emotionally intelligent, and so, you know, he has, like, really intimate relationships in his life. You know, he has a really close relationship with a male friend; he has a, a sister he loves; he has a mother he loves; and that kind of allows him to pull back a little bit more and –
Sarah: Yeah.
Elissa: – look at sort of gender dynamics.
Sarah: Yeah.
Elissa: And he’s less kind of, I think he’s less ashamed of his sort of beefcake past –
Sarah: Yeah.
Elissa: – and is more of just like, he realizes that it’s hindering him in the way that people think about him and his intelligence level, and that’s the thing that bothers him –
Sarah: Yes.
Elissa: – which I think is a, you know, very fair, and I’m, and, and, and I’m sure there are actors out there – like, I, I have friends who are actors; I have friends who work in the industry; and they’ve, they’ve spoken about, like, a lot of actors feel very insecure about their, how intelligent they’re perceived as.
Sarah: Oh, for sure! For sure!
Elissa: And so, and I think, especially if you are handsome it’s like, it’s almost like, you know, we don’t want people who are really beautiful to be really smart too. It feels really unfair.
[Laughter]
Sarah: It’s not fair if you’re super hot –
Elissa: It’s not fair!
Sarah: – and smart! That’s just really terrible! And –
Elissa: That’s just, just rude!
Sarah: – and one of the things that he recognizes is also that, because he has been objectified, he has an understanding of the, of the objectification that happens to other people, which I, and I think that’s something that, until you truly experience being reduced down to a body part or an image, how demoralizing and weird it is, and he gets that, which gives him a, sort of a greater understanding, like you said, of gender dynamics and nuance.
Elissa: Yeah. I mean, I’m, I’m so glad that you, you picked up on that, ‘cause I think, yeah, I wanted to make – you know, we talk about his body.
Sarah: Yeah!
Elissa: His body gets, gets spoken about a lot, and, and –
Sarah: It’s –
Elissa: – there is this sense of, you know, Chani is lusting after it, and she thinks it’s very hot, but we, I, I really try to make a point to, to comment on, like, that it’s work for him –
Sarah: Yeah.
Elissa: – to get to this physique, ‘cause –
Sarah: Thank you. That was my favorite part, actually.
Elissa: Well, thank you! Thanks so much. I mean, I think a lot of male celebrities now are talking about it. Like, Channing Tatum did an interview where he talked about, like, how, when he does stuff for Magic Mike it’s like, that’s not, he, it doesn’t last. It’s like –
Sarah: No!
Elissa: And it’s, it’s so fleeting, and it feels – he’s like, this is sort of why I don’t want to do any more of those movies –
Sarah: Yeah!
Elissa: – because it’s so much work, and, and you are starving yourself.
Sarah: Yes.
Elissa: Like, these men are starving themselves –
Sarah: Yes.
Elissa: – to look this way, and I, and I don’t think –
Sarah: I’m not okay with it.
Elissa: – it’s – yeah! I mean, we don’t, we don’t need it. We don’t need – the answer isn’t to make men do what we’ve made women do. It’s to go the other way! It’s like, let’s be more okay with bodies –
Sarah: Yes.
Elissa: – of all sizes and all shapes and, and, you know –
Sarah: Yes.
Elissa: [Laughs]
Sarah: Yes, yes!
Elissa: Because, like, you know, the more we see different bodies, the more we, as a society, are going to be able to embrace how beautiful they are.
Sarah: Absolutely.
Elissa: It’s just that we don’t see it, and, and we’re shamed for, you know, for seeing bodies that don’t fit that narrative as beautiful.
Sarah: Yes. And there’s –
Elissa: Which is a problem.
Sarah: – there’s also the narrative – and this makes me absolutely rage – after #MeToo I would look at movies and think, all right, you know, who got groped so this movie could be made? What, who is paying –
Elissa: Yeah.
Sarah: – a very horrible price for my entertainment? It’s why I don’t watch football anymore: I don’t want men of color to have to get brain damage for my entertainment; I can’t do it. Cannot; do not put it in my eyeballs. And as I’ve heard other people say, I don’t believe cancel culture is real, but things can indeed be canceled for me, and I will be like, nope!
Elissa: Yes.
Sarah: I’m done now. And with, with acting and the body objectification, particularly of men, first of all, I, I know they’re dehydrated, and I look at, like, the, the man-chest covers on romance novels, and I’m like, I can see more than three of your veins –
Elissa: Yeah.
Sarah: – when did you last have a glass of water? That’s not sexy; that’s very scary. And also, I know how much work goes into maintaining that physique, and I’m like, anyone who looks like that does not have time to run a company, be the CEO but do astonishingly little work – CEOs never work in romance –
Elissa: No.
Sarah: – pursue the heroine, you know, write a business plan for her cupcake bakery. Like all of the things that happen in a romance novel, you don’t have time to do that and maintain that physique; that physique is a full-time job. And I remember –
Elissa: Yeah!
Sarah: – Chris Evans talking about for the, the biceps helicopter scene, they filmed that first, ‘cause those biceps do not stick around.
Elissa: Yeah, and he injured himself in that scene!
Sarah: Yeah, yeah!
Elissa: Like, he –
Sarah: He hurt himself.
Elissa: – is still, I think, dealing with, you know, shoulder and arm pain from that. It’s just like –
Sarah: Yeah, from, you know, biceps curling a helicopter, as you do.
Elissa: Yeah!
Sarah: The other thing that makes me really angry, and I also like that this is sort of touched on in your book: there is a big, big lie being sold to the public as well, that you can look like a Kardashian if you work out, if you drink this tea, if you wear this foundation. You can look like these movie stars if you go to the gym, if you get ripped and shredded and you, you know, jump on a box and eat only kale. That’s – no, that is not reality. There are a lot of other things happening to make those humans look that way, and it is not attainable by average, normal people. It’s, and that makes me so irritated, because that –
Elissa: Yeah.
Sarah: – that lack of understanding is being sold to younger and younger people, and I have to counsel my teenagers like, listen, that doesn’t happen because you work out once a, once a day; that happens when you work out eight hours every day for three weeks prior to the start of filming, and then all those films are, those shots are done first.
Elissa: Yeah, yeah, and you have someone who is, like, monitoring your food, who is probably feed-, like, you’re probably not feeding yourself.
Sarah: Nope.
Elissa: Someone’s probably, like, bringing you food.
Sarah: Mm-hmm!
Elissa: You have someone who is training you every single day. All, all you have to do is work out and memorize your lines at that point, probably.
Sarah: And take steroids!
Elissa: And take steroids, probably. Yeah, it’s just like –
Sarah: Yeah, and human growth hormone. Come on, don’t lie to me! I’m not – like you said, I, I – [laughs] – I have a lot of respect for people who are like, I am good looking, this is a tool that I use to do my job, but let me tell you about my brains, and then I am like, yes, tell me everything.
Elissa: Yes, I want to know about your brains!
Sarah: I love your brain!
Elissa: Tell me you have brains!
Sarah: Yes, I’m, I’m into the zombie celebrity! I like brains!
Elissa: Mmm, brains!
Sarah: So what were some of your favorite parts of writing this book?
Elissa: Ah, I mean, I had so much fun. There’s a reason that, like, most of the book is Gabe and Chani talking? It’s because just having the two of them – [laughs] – together is super fun! And I –
Sarah: I love dialogue!
Elissa: Yeah!
Sarah: These characters could be sitting in the middle of a whiteboard; it’s fine. I don’t need background! Just give me the talking.
Elissa: Yeah! I mean, I’ve had –
Sarah: It’s good that I have a podcast! [Laughs]
Elissa: I had, I had a, I had an MFA teacher who would constantly criticize me. He’s like, you need to write a scene.
Sarah: [Laughs]
Elissa: And I was like, nah! I’m good!
Sarah: Nah, it’s fine.
Elissa: I’m good.
Sarah: They’re talking; it’s sexy; trust me.
Elissa: Fine! They’re talking; it’s fine! I don’t, I don’t need to set the scene; it’s fine. We’re good.
Sarah: [Laughs]
Elissa: Well, ‘cause it’s, you know, I, I know what I skip over when I read –
Sarah: Yeah.
Elissa: – books. You know, like –
Sarah: Oh yeah.
Elissa: – I, I’m not really paying that much attention to descriptions of clothing –
Sarah: Nope!
Elissa: – you know, to descriptions –
Sarah: Don’t care.
Elissa: – of location, unless it’s, like, important, and I want to see the characters interacting and talking and, and also what they’re sort of feeling when they’re, when they’re interacting with each other. So, so definitely putting the two of them together was super, super fun, and then to be able to drop other characters in and kind of like, you know, Ollie is, is, you know, a fan favorite; I’ve heard so many people talk about how they love Gabe’s friend Ollie –
Sarah: Yeah.
Elissa: – and I love him too, and he’s just like a fun foil to, like, he’s both, like, they’re biggest fan and, like, wants them to get together, but also is kind of like causing a little, like, drama –
Sarah: Yeah.
Elissa: – in between too –
Sarah: Yeah.
Elissa: – you know, ‘cause he’s a, he’s, he’s as delightful a character to, to write with all –
Sarah: Agent –
Elissa: – when the three of them are together it was so much fun.
Sarah: A little agent of chaos.
Elissa: A little agent of chaos –
Sarah: Yeah!
Elissa: – we need that!
Sarah: Yeah! So as I noted, celebrity profiles play a somewhat large – heh-heh – role in this book. What are some of your favorite celebrity profiles? ‘Cause I know you had to read some to develop the profiles that are in the book. Why do you – what, what are some of your favorites, and why, which ones are the ones you reread and why?
Elissa: I mean, I definitely have reread Anne Helen Petersen’s profile – like, they’re not celebrity profiles in the traditional sense, but, like –
Sarah: Yeah.
Elissa: – her Ben Affleck and Jennifer Garner dual one, where she talks about their, when they were still married and how their marriage kind of works in the press –
Sarah: Yes.
Elissa: – was so fascinating to me, and I’ve been just –
Sarah: Their marriage was its own brand, right?
Elissa: Yes! And she, like, the talking about sort of how Jennifer Garner is her own brand, even though she doesn’t really do a lot of movies anymore, but she is, like, immensely popular in the Midwest –
Sarah: Yep.
Elissa: – and what that means? I think it’s so fascinating.
Sarah: She’s a minivan celebrity.
Elissa: Yeah! She’s, she’s just like – and, and I think she does really good work with that celebrity –
Sarah: Oh yeah.
Elissa: – because I think she –
Sarah: She knows!
Elissa: – she knows, yeah. I think she’s like, you know, it’s that, it’s the Reese Witherspoon thing, but Reese Witherspoon’s a little, little, like, more welcoming of maybe the conservative mindset? Or, like, or a little more like, I’m not going to say where I, my beliefs land –
Sarah: Yeah.
Elissa: – on the political spectrum, and I think Jennifer Garner is, like, a little more pro-choice, a little more like –
Sarah: Yeah!
Elissa: – hey! Gun violence is bad! –
Sarah: Yeah.
Elissa: – type stuff. And so I, I loved that profile. I’ve, I’ve definitely reread that multiple times. Of course the Chris Evans/Edith Zimmerman profile I think is pretty obvious a big inspiration.
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Elissa: I think it’s such a brilliant, like it, it was, there was that interview, and then there was an interview with Tom Hiddleston and then one with Channing Tatum that all came out around the same time, and I want to say they were all GQ? I feel like GQ does great, great celebrity profiles.
Sarah: Yes. GQ is like the profile that actors want to have because they know it’s going to make them interesting? And then there’s the actor profiles –
Elissa: Yes.
Sarah: – in The New Yorker, where they think they’re going to be the exception to The New Yorker profile, and then they’re not –
Elissa: [Laughs] They’re not.
Sarah: – and then they’re mad, because The New Yorker –
Elissa: Yeah.
Sarah: – The New Yorker doesn’t want them to look good.
Elissa: Yeah, The New Yorker is like kind of the intellectual side of things where it’s –
Sarah: Uh-huh.
Elissa: – it’s a little like –
Sarah: And you’re not allowed to have a brain as an actor in The New Yorker. You’re, you’re allowed –
Elissa: Yeah.
Sarah: – to be a weirdo, and you’re allowed to be self-absorbed –
Elissa: Right.
Sarah: – and it’s really easy to make some people look like dicks, ‘cause they are, but you’re not –
Elissa: Right.
Sarah: – going to get a profile that makes you think, damn, this guy’s cool, in The New Yorker; you’re going to get that at GQ.
Elissa: Yes. GQ is going to, and they’re going to do – and, and they’ve really allowed sort of the space for the interviewers to be part of the story, which I love.
Sarah: Yes, yes.
Elissa: And I feel like, and I feel like, you know, female journalists specifically have, have really taken that form and found a way to elevate it –
Sarah: Yes.
Elissa: – by, because their, their self-insertion in the story allows us to sort of talk about celebrity and to explore celebrity, and it allows us to feel closer to these celebrities and also, you know, acknowledge that they are not like us.
Sarah: Yes.
Elissa: You know, so it’s that, it’s that really fun balance, and, and you really get to feel like you are along for the ride in a very intimate way.
Sarah: Yes. And that, and that intimacy allows the person writing the profile to not necessarily be the audience avatar or the entry point, to be, but to be almost a bridge, because they are usually themselves a regular person. Like, I am sure that Taffy Brodesser-Akner goes to Target and nobody freaks out –
Elissa: Yeah. Yeah.
Sarah: – but, like, if Channing Tatum goes to Target he’s going to be taking selfies all the way down the pharmacy aisle. I hope he didn’t need athlete’s foot cream, ‘cause he’s never going to get there. Right?
Elissa: Yeah. Never going to get there. [Laughs]
Sarah: But if you say that name to somebody who reads journalism they’re going to be like, oh my God, you met Taffy? Oh my God!
Elissa: Yeah.
Sarah: So there, there’s this, this balance between celebrity and normal person that they can uniquely occupy as the journalist doing the profile.
Elissa: Yeah.
Sarah: Yeah.
Elissa: And, and I have friends who have done profiles with actors, and they’ve talked about that it is such this, this interesting dynamic of just going into the room and being with that person?
Sarah: Yeah! Oh yeah!
Elissa: Because, yeah, because it’s like, they’re the celebrity, but they also know that they have to, you’re the one they have to impress.
Sarah: Yes!
Elissa: And, and like you’re saying, it’s like, how are they going to play it?
Sarah: Yes. It’s like when –
Elissa: Like, how – is it going to be flirtation? Is it going to be –
Sarah: Yes.
Elissa: – like, I’m an intellectual? Like, what, what are they trying to sell with this interview? What do they need?
Sarah: Yes! Yes.
Elissa: And so it’s this interesting – and for the story, that was such a great way to have that dynamic, because usually with celebrity/normal people romances, the normal person doesn’t have any clout. They don’t have any leverage.
Sarah: No.
Elissa: So you sort of, you’ll read a story, and it’s very clear that the, the – ‘cause usually the celebrity is usually a guy – is, like, really into the female character, and you’re just like, well, why – and, and the female character’s like, I don’t know! I don’t know if he’s into me, and it’s like, he’s, his dick is twitching, you know, like –
[Laughter]
Elissa: He’s into you! We get it!
Sarah: You have achieved three twitches, ma’am. He’s into you a lot. [Laughs]
Elissa: He’s into you a lot. You know, but it’s like, it’s so obvious?
Sarah: Yeah, absolutely.
Elissa: And, and so with this one it’s like, it is very obvious, but then there’s that extra layer of why?
Sarah: Why?
Elissa: Is, is he being this charming, this flirtatious, this, like, into me because –
Sarah: Yeah.
Elissa: – of me? Or because of the article? And so it, like, it really messes with Chani’s sense of reality and, you know, she’s kind of gaslighting herself a little bit of just like, I don’t, I don’t know what’s real! I don’t –
Sarah: Yeah.
Elissa: – I don’t know if he’s – am I imagining this ‘cause I want it so badly, or –
Sarah: Yeah.
Elissa: – you know, is it real? And then it’s like, how could it be real? He’s –
Sarah: Right!
Elissa: – a huge star, you know, and –
Sarah: Right!
Elissa: – and I think we have this idea of like, you know, celebrities are – especially, like, incredibly beautiful celebrities? – they’re not human –
Sarah: Yes!
Elissa: – you know, so it’s like, so –
Sarah: Yes.
Elissa: – you know, I’ve definitely seen comments where they’re just like, you know, it’s unbelievable that he would fall in love with her. It’s like, well, celebrities fall in love with normal people –
Together: – all the time –
Sarah: Yep.
Elissa: – because they are normal people; you know, they’re just human beings who have –
Sarah: Yeah!
Elissa: – desire that is specific to them and sometimes doesn’t fit –
Sarah: Their image, yeah.
Elissa: – their image or what we think their image is, or, or the idea of what a celebrity relationship should be.
Sarah: Yeah. That’s one of my favorite things about, like, fake relationships, especially between, fake relationships between two celebrities who have a public persona and a private persona, and when you start –
Elissa: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: – playing with that private persona when the public persona is how they make money, there’s a lot of tension there!
Elissa: Yeah!
Sarah: And for Chani, she’s experiencing, okay, is he actually into me because he’s into me, or is he into me because I’m writing this profile that’s going to, you know, help him professionally? She’s experiencing what he experiences with, you know, adoring fans: are they actually into me, or are they just into my rippling man-chest and my, you know, flat male nipples? Like, what –
Elissa: Yeah. [Laughs]
Sarah: – are you actually into me, or is it just, you know, this waxed, bronzed, you know, accentuated image of me that you’ve seen?
Elissa: Right, yeah, yeah. So it, it levels the playing ground for both of them, I think, which is, which is interesting, and, and I think it’s sort of sad that, like, you know, people, you know, it’s, it’s the problem that exists everywhere, but it’s just this idea that, like, women have to be so extraordinary, like extraordinarily beautiful or intelligent or whatever for them to be worthy of love, especially from someone who we think is like the pinnacle of manhood?
Sarah: Yeah.
Elissa: And it’s just like, attraction is so specific, and, and I think that’s, that’s the thing I, I wish we would explore a little bit more in romance about just, when we get into too much detail and description of what these characters look like –
Sarah: Yeah.
Elissa: – I feel like it kind of does us a disservice because it’s like, attraction is so varied and so nuanced –
Sarah: And so subjective, yeah.
Elissa: – and it isn’t just about flat abs and, you know, a tight butt or whatever. It’s like, there’s so much more, and, and I think sometimes we – I think I, we’re, we’ve gotten better at it, like, with female characters, because we want our female readers to relate to them –
Sarah: Yeah.
Elissa: – but then can we be a little more flexible with what we see as, like, the male –
Sarah: Heroic.
Elissa: – archetype and, and what is attractive –
Sarah: For sure.
Elissa: – because there are so many different kinds of, of beautiful male bodies out there that we just –
Sarah: Yeah!
Elissa: – don’t see in romance as much as we should!
Sarah: No, and, and then when you find one that isn’t the muscled, tall, handsome archetype, everyone’s like, oh my gosh, it’s, this hero is fat! He has a belly! Oh my gosh! What? Really? What? And, and we all get excited about it ‘cause they’re so rare!
Elissa: [Laughs] Yeah! It’s, and it’s so rare, and I think if, if we could sort of, you know, adjust and sort of be like, maybe it’s not the description of these, like, rippling muscles and stuff; it’s just the way that their body makes the character feel?
Sarah: Yes!
Elissa: You know, ‘cause that’s what’s more important to me, and that, you know, whenever someone gets too specific into describing a character I’m like, you’re – with each description, you are risking losing me –
Sarah: Yeah.
Elissa: – because we all have our things that are, we find attractive, we don’t find – like, it’s like, you know, you describe it too much and they say, oh, he’s got like a, a dimple in the chin, and it’s like, well, what if I don’t like dimples in chins?
Sarah: Yeah.
Elissa: So now all of a sudden this, this character’s not attractive to me, versus, you know, having a female character just be like, I just thought he was gorgeous.
Sarah: Yeah.
Elissa: You don’t need to see.
Sarah: Fill in the blank on your own. There you go.
Elissa: Yeah!
Sarah: Yep!
Elissa: What is gorgeous to you?
Sarah: So why do you think that we readers are, are fascinated with celebrity? This is a very big question, and I don’t think there’s only one answer. And you know, like I said, I’m super into the idea of the narratives that surround celebrity and the distance between – and I think this is always fascinating – the distance between their public persona and their private persona? The wider that distance, the more devastating it is when you find out that their public persona was false.
Elissa: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, ‘cause we feel cheated for sure.
Sarah: Yeah! Yeah!
Elissa: I mean, I think –
Sarah: Even though we were just sold a narrative! You know, we never –
Elissa: Yeah! Yeah!
Sarah: – we were never promised that it was true! They are an actor; that is what they do.
Elissa: They are an act-, yeah.
Sarah: But I still am like, oh man, you are a turd! [Laughs]
Elissa: Yeah. Well, I mean, I think it’s always disappointing when someone that you have developed this, you know, we are now talking more about like at the parasocial relationships –
Sarah: Yeah.
Elissa: – to celebrities.
Sarah: Yeah.
Elissa: You, you know, they’re, the point of them is to create intimacy –
Sarah: Yeah.
Elissa: – and to create loyalty –
Sarah: Absolutely.
Elissa: – and, and you do that so you will buy their movie, you go to the movies and buy their music and all these things, and it’s –
Sarah: Yep.
Elissa: – you know, that’s part of – and I, you know, I, I don’t have that same, you know, extreme, but anyone who has a forward-facing job –
Sarah: Yep.
Elissa: – has a sense of balance. I mean, I’m sure even, you know, with you and the podcast it’s like –
Sarah: Oh yeah.
Elissa: – there are things that, like, you’re not going to talk about on the podcast –
Sarah: Oh yeah.
Elissa: – ‘cause they’re personal and they’re no one’s business. And I’m sure there would be, there could be instances where people would be like, well, that’s, you know, you should be sharing everything with us, because we’re, we’re, you know, listening to your podcast, we’re supporting you, you owe us, and it’s that entitlement that we’re taught to have, you know. It’s, it doesn’t come from anywhere.
Sarah: Yeah.
Elissa: It’s, it’s a relationship that sort of goes back and forth: who has the power? Is it the person who is the celebrity? Yes, to an extent, but then they only have celebrity because we are buying magazines about them, and we’re going to their movies –
Sarah: We’re participating.
Elissa: – and we’re participating in it.
Sarah: Yep!
Elissa: And, and I’m fascinated with fame. Like, I’m not ashamed to admit that, like, I have, of course, dreams of fame and, and imagine what it would be like to be famous, but I also, you know, will take steps back and be like, actually, I think that would be really horrible – [laughs] – and probably very destructive emotionally.
Sarah: Yeah.
Elissa: If I didn’t have – especially, like, I imagine, like, someone becoming famous at a really, really young age.
Sarah: Oh yeah, that’s a big ol’ mindfuck.
Elissa: And just have no solid ground –
Sarah: Yeah.
Elissa: – to exist on.
Sarah: Yeah. I call it, you can’t go to Target. Like I was saying with Channing Tatum, if you’re the type of celebrity –
Elissa: Yeah!
Sarah: – where you can’t just be like, oh crap, I’m out of Lysol; I’ve got to go to Target; you can’t go to Target.
Elissa: Yeah.
Sarah: Or you have to live in a place where there are enough other celebrities around you that your presence in Target is not going to be remarked upon, or you have enough celebrity and wealth that you hire somebody to go to Target for you, so you don’t have to go, because going –
Elissa: Yeah.
Sarah: – is a whole thing.
Elissa: It’s a whole thing! I mean, like, you know, people have been, make fun of Barbra Streisand ‘cause she has her own, like, shopping center in her house where she shops by herself?
Sarah: Yeah!
Elissa: And I’m like, well, she can’t go anywhere else!
Sarah: Yeah! Like –
Elissa: And, and if she really likes shopping –
Sarah: – I get the shoppies! I, I get the shoppies: I go to Costco, I go to the mall, and I’m done! Barbra –
Elissa: Yeah!
Sarah: – Barbra can’t be like, I’m just going to go out to Walmart; that’s not, that’s not an option!
Elissa: No, she can’t go to Walmart! So she’s got to do, you know, it’s like –
Sarah: Yeah.
Elissa: – that’s, that’s something that is important to her, so that’s what she does. Like, she has her own little shopping center, and she goes and she shops. And it’s like, well, we’ve made it, we’ve made it so that, like, you can’t –
Sarah: Yeah.
Elissa: – you know. Like, I was reading a book on Clark Gable and Carole Lombard, and they were talking about how in the beginning of celebrity culture they would print their addresses in these fan magazines.
Sarah: Oh yeah, and they would get mail! Yeah!
Elissa: People would get mail; people would, you know, not that often come to their house, but occasionally come to their house; and it’s like, you know, we, our ideas of celebrity have changed so much, and we really feel, as an audience, so entitled to such personal things –
Sarah: Yeah.
Elissa: – that it’s, it’s impo-, you know, it’s impossible for anyone to give you enough –
Sarah: Yeah.
Elissa: – to give you what you want, because what you want is real intimacy. You want, you want to be able to approach this person and feel the intimacy that you felt from them.
Sarah: Yeah.
Elissa: And it’s, it’s, you can’t have that –
Sarah: It’s only one way.
Elissa: – it’s one-sided!
Sarah: It’s, it’s all one-sided. Yeah.
Elissa: Yeah. And, and we, I think, have trouble – we, you know, it’s understandable we have trouble with that. Like, our whole media, you know, system is, en-, encourages us to have that intimacy –
Sarah: And pursue it, yeah.
Elissa: – and pursue it for capitalism and –
Sarah: It’s profitable!
Elissa: – and it’s super profitable, and –
Sarah: Absolutely!
Elissa: – and, and then we kind of like lose the sense of, like, oh, but these are actually human beings.
Sarah: Yeah.
Elissa: On both sides, you know?
Sarah: Absolutely.
Elissa: The fans are human beings –
Sarah: Yeah.
Elissa: – and the celebrities are human beings, and we don’t really respect either, and we don’t have healthy relationships with fandom; we don’t have healthy relationships with celebrity.
Sarah: Nope.
Elissa: So – but it’s, like, fascinating to think about and to, and to discuss –
Sarah: It’s absolutely fascinating.
Elissa: – and to, to write about. It’s like there’s, it’s fraught. There’s, there’s so much to discuss.
Sarah: There is, there’s so much, and it’s interesting because I think one of the ways in which the celebrity profile, especially the GQ style ones, work so well to accommodate that weird tension of intimacy is that you’re getting an extra-long deep dive. Like, those are long form. Those are long frigging essays. So you’re getting a very deep dive into that person, and I’ve read different deep dives on, say, Reddit of, okay, here is the complete visual social media history of this relationship between these two people, and somebody goes out and compiles all of the links and pictures and, like, this is where they broke up, this is where they got together, this is where they hooked up that one time. This is where, you know, he’s holding someone else’s cell phone case; that’s not her cell phone case, ‘cause here’s that – and I’m just like, wow! This is the same length as a full-length celebrity profile, but they’re very different things.
Elissa: Yeah.
Sarah: And the celebrity profile is participant. Like, both people –
Elissa: Yeah.
Sarah: – are participating in it.
Elissa: It’s a conversation. Yeah, it’s a conversation between two people who have, there’s some balance of power.
Sarah: Yeah. It’s not complete. It’s not complete, but there’s some.
Elissa: But there is, but there is some balance of power versus, yeah, versus us, us normal people just sort of observing celebrity. There is, you know, like, I always, I, that’s what I think, like, when I think of all of the, this whole new thing where you do, like, the photos with celebrities, like the meet-and-greets?
Sarah: Yeah.
Elissa: I, I, I totally understand the impulse for it –
Sarah: Yeah.
Elissa: – but I always am just like, I just feel like you would, you’re never going to get what you want from that.
Sarah: Yeah.
Elissa: You know, because what you want is a, that, that a-ha, oh my God, you’re, you’re that fan. You’re that person who understands my work –
Sarah: Yes.
Elissa: – the way I understand it, and there’s that connection. It’s just like, it’s, you are one of a hundred people this celebrity has met today –
Sarah: In that line, yes.
Elissa: – in that line, and they are there because they have been told to do – you know, I don’t think anyone really wants – you know, because a meet-and-greet is not, it’s not someone talking about your work, you know. It’s not, it’s not having – I imagine it must be really nice to sit with an interviewer and be like, I get to discuss my work.
Sarah: Yes, as a longer form conversation –
Elissa: I get to –
Sarah: – as opposed to –
Elissa: Yeah!
Sarah: – five minutes, two minutes, five minutes, two minutes.
Elissa: Yeah, like those, those, like, you watch enough of the, those sort of press junket things –
Sarah: Yeah!
Elissa: – and you sort of see celebrities, like, not only just getting loopy towards the end of it –
Sarah: Yes.
Elissa: – but, like, the way they sort of are reacting to hearing the same questions –
Sarah: Yes.
Elissa: – over and over again, especially if you’re a woman. It’s usually about how do you work in the movie or –
Sarah: Wardrobe, did you lose weight, yeah.
Elissa: – did you lose weight, all of that stuff. And so, like, I imagine the opportunity to, to actually talk about your work and your craft is very exciting –
Sarah: Yes.
Elissa: – and you’re being taken seriously.
Sarah: Yes.
Elissa: And you’re not –
Sarah: You’re being seen!
Elissa: – like, that’s not what happens on a meet-and-greet. That’s not what happens at a press junket.
Sarah: That’s all superficial. This is –
Elissa: It’s all superficial.
Sarah: – these, a profile is, is, is an invitation to be seen at a deeper level, whereas –
Elissa: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: – the meet-and-greet and all of the superficial fan reactions are very superficial; they’re only momentary and visual, whereas the profile is the allure, something more.
Elissa: Yeah, and I think people think that that’s what they’re going to get –
Sarah: Yeah.
Elissa: – when they interact with a celebrity, and it’s like, you can’t, like, you can’t because you don’t – there has to be that, like we talked about, like, that balance of power –
Sarah: Yeah.
Elissa: – because there has to be a reason for the celebrity to kind of let their guard down in a sense and be –
Sarah: Absolutely.
Elissa: – you know, be like, okay, I can, I can hold back a little from the persona.
Sarah: Yeah.
Elissa: You know, still in control.
Sarah: I don’t have to be the, I don’t have to be the role.
Elissa: Yeah.
Sarah: And I, I think that helps a lot when actors have stage names? Like, I did not adopt a pseudonym, it’s my actual name, but when I speak to authors, like, for example, I did an, an interview with Christina Lauren, who is two people, and –
Elissa: Yeah.
Sarah: – it’s their first names, but that’s not them. That’s a third person, and it’s like, you know, makes it easier for them to deal with some things like, oh, Christina Lauren did that. She’s crazy! She’s nuts. We don’t have to worry about her.
Elissa: [Laughs] Whatever!
Sarah: That’s a whole other person! That’s that role that I’m stepping into. And I think that’s also why we love it when the celebrity profiles reveal that celebrities are really weird people sometimes! [Laughs]
Elissa: Oh yeah!
Sarah: Oh, we love it when they’re weird!
Elissa: Love it!
Sarah: Like the one profile of Miles Teller? Where –
Elissa: I don’t remember that one!
Sarah: I will send you a link if you would like, the –
Elissa: Oh my God, yes!
Sarah: It starts off like, I, I’m trying to decide if Miles Teller is a dick, and I think he is?
Elissa: [Laughs]
Sarah: Because he is! He’s just not hiding the fact. He, like, has the reporter –
Elissa: Right.
Sarah: – cut up his steak for him.
Elissa: Oh God.
Sarah: It went, it, it was, it was just a piece of majesty, but even the Chris Evans profile and the Tom Hiddleston profile –
Elissa: The Tom Hiddleston one is –
Sarah: Honey, you’re, he’s a little weird! Wow!
Elissa: He’s a, like, I’m like –
Sarah: Weird and a –
Elissa: – Taffy is not your therapist, Tom!
Sarah: My dude! ‘Cause wow!
Elissa: I mean, I also think he was, like –
Sarah: In a place –
Elissa: – desperate to talk about it.
Sarah: He was in a place.
Elissa: Desperate, yeah.
Sarah: He was in a place where he needed to just – [laughs] –
Elissa: And I just, I just, like, I felt so much empathy for him in that moment, ‘cause I was just like, yeah, who hasn’t, who hasn’t done this? Like, just spilled their guts to someone they don’t really know and pro- – and then, like, immediately regretted it? [Laughs]
Sarah: Yeah, immediately be like, ooh, I overshared!
Elissa: I overshared! What did I do?
Sarah: Yeaahh.
Elissa: But, like, could you come over again so I can overshare some more about how I overshared?
Sarah: Yeah, I need to walk this back, but I’m only going to dig, dig it deeper. Sorry.
Together: Yeah.
Elissa: But I feel, but I feel like it was, it was effective, and –
Sarah: Yeah!
Elissa: – that, you know, we had, everyone had been sort of looking at him like, what is your deal, dude? And then you look at this, this article, it’s like, aw, poor Tom Hiddleston! [Laughs]
Sarah: Tom is going through it!
Elissa: He’s going through it! So you have –
Sarah: Yeah.
Elissa: – a lot of sympathy and empathy for him, which –
Sarah: ‘Cause celebrity is hard!
Elissa: – is exactly what you want at that point, you know? You –
Sarah: Exactly.
Elissa: It’s fascinating. I’m, I’m waiting for, like, there’s going to be some article, some interview with John Mulaney in the next year or so that’s going to be fascinating.
Sarah: Ohhh, he makes me mad.
Elissa: There’s just, there’s just a lot going on?
Sarah: Seeing all of the people in the Ohio show talk about how devastating it was for him to invite Dave Chappelle on stage to then go make –
Elissa: Yeah.
Sarah: – transphobic jokes, and there are trans people in the audience who thought they felt safe because John Mulaney had built a brand on –
Elissa: Yeah.
Sarah: – not making people feel unsafe – bro. My dude. My dude.
Elissa: It’s, I, it’s, I’m just like, what’s going on with you? Like –
Sarah: My dude.
Elissa: – this is an int- – because I feel like, you know, so much of what we were talking about of, as far as parasocial relationships really came –
Sarah: Oh!
Elissa: – to the surface with him –
Sarah: Oh yeah.
Elissa: – getting divorced –
Sarah: Oh yeah.
Elissa: – and people took that very personally.
Sarah: Extremely personally! And in my experience, when someone takes something celebrity very personally, it is because it has challenged or damaged something about their own identity that they see in that person. It’s a –
Elissa: Yeah!
Sarah: – it’s actually about themselves – of course it’s about themselves, ‘cause they’re the ones taking it personally – and I’m like, what did you see, what did you identify in this guy that you now feel betrayed about? Like, what, what was it that you lost? ‘Cause he never did anything for me – he was fine; I thought it was great, but I didn’t have that, oh, this is my dude!
Elissa: Yeah.
Sarah: You know, he, I was not in his fandom; let me put it that way. I have fandoms for other things –
Elissa: Yeah.
Sarah: – but this was, this was not one of my fandoms.
Elissa: I think, I think also we’d had such betrayal from male comedians –
Sarah: Oh Lord, yes.
Elissa: – for so long –
Sarah: We thought you were a good one!
Elissa: – and he’s – we thought you were a good one!
Sarah: We were rooting for you!
Elissa: You know, here you are making, like, charming jokes about your wife, who you love –
Sarah: Yeah.
Elissa: – and the fact that you’re not having kids and, like, that’s okay, and isn’t that great?
Sarah: Yeah.
Elissa: And then all of a sudden it’s like –
Sarah: Yep.
Elissa: – I’m getting a divorce and I’m having a child with someone else –
Sarah: Yeah.
Elissa: – and you’re just like –
Sarah: What?
Elissa: – so you’re sort of like all the other comedians that –
Sarah: Oh yeah!
Elissa: – a little – I mean, I think, I think it’s like – and we also, like, the standards for men, male celebrities are so low –
Sarah: Oh –
Elissa: – that they’re inevitably going to topple –
Sarah: – it’s a real low bar.
Elissa: – from that pedestal.
Sarah: Yeah, that’s what I was talking about –
Elissa: You know, they’re –
Sarah: – when the distant between your public persona and the dist-, and, and who you are gets greater and greater, and then one of them –
Elissa: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: – collapses, it’s like, wow, okay!
Elissa: Yeah, yeah. I mean, my favorite, my favorite sort of celebrity tidbit –
Sarah: Yes?
Elissa: – is, is finding out that Joe Manganiello is like a huge Dungeons & Dragons fan?
Sarah: Yes! I love this so much!
Elissa: It’s the, I feel like that’s the best example of, like, using your, what people think of as your public persona –
Sarah: Yeah.
Elissa: – and your real life personality is, like, such a good way to challenge that. It doesn’t really lose any, like, it’s such a brilliant –
Sarah: Nope.
Elissa: – way to do it –
Sarah: Yep.
Elissa: – and I just, like, yeah, how can you not love him for that? How can you not love him imagining him hosting these Dungeons & Dragons games?
Sarah: I know! I saw, I think it was, I want to say it was Tumblr, could have been Reddit, but basically we are nervous systems housed in horny electrified bags of meat, and all of our bags of meat are different. We’re just horny bags of meat! And I am okay with my celebrities looking like horny bags of meat! [Laughs]
Elissa: I am a hundred percent for it. I think it’s –
Sarah: Yeah! [Laughs]
Elissa: – great! I love it, you know? It’s like, let’s –
Sarah: Yeah! We’re horny bags of meat! It’s okay! Just let yourself off the hook!
Elissa: Let’s embrace it! Let’s embrace all of our different sizes and shapes of our horny bags of meat.
Sarah: Yes.
Elissa: Like, it is good.
Sarah: It’s hard to overcome that shame, too. Like, I stopped shaving my legs during the pandemic, and then I was, like, wearing shorts, and I’m like, oh! I will be perceived with body hair, and I had feelings about that.
Elissa: Yeah! I mean, it’s so, like, it’s so hard to untangle.
Sarah: It’s such a mess.
Elissa: All of it is hard to untangle –
Sarah: Yes.
Elissa: – and, and I, like, you know, that’s why with romance it’s like, you know, we are learning from each other a lot of the time, I think –
Sarah: Yes.
Elissa: – we – and, and unfortunately sometimes that means we perpetuate bad stereotypes and –
Sarah: We are all in the patriarchal soup, yes.
Elissa: We’re all in the soup! And so, like, and I love that romance is, can be both very conventional and very progressive at the same time, and I love that it’s moving more and more into progressive spaces and people are really thinking about, like, okay, what, what are things that we have taken for granted as romance tropes and expectations, and how can we play with them?
Sarah: Yeah.
Elissa: Because I really feel like the only thing you really need for romance is for it to be a happy ending!
Sarah: Absolutely.
Elissa: Everything else can change! You know, it doesn’t have to be two people; it could be three people! It doesn’t have to be a man and a woman –
Sarah: Yeah.
Elissa: – it could be, you know, a, a man and a man. It doesn’t have to be two Christians; it doesn’t – you know, like, all these things that we – it doesn’t have to be a virgin; doesn’t have to be a female virgin! Could be a male virgin!
Sarah: Okay, now let’s not get crazy here! Okay.
Elissa: I know, I know. I’m going nuts.
Sarah: Calm down. [Laughs]
Elissa: Going nuts! Changing all the things! You want to talk about, like, the way we talk about male bodies in romance, it’s like, not everyone has a huge dick.
Sarah: No!
Elissa: Like, maybe we should stop equating masculinity with huge penises.
Sarah: Yes.
Elissa: That’s, usually are uncomfortable to have sex with. Like –
Sarah: Yes!
Elissa: – we should, we should talk more about, like, the logistics of having sex? And often –
Sarah: Your body makes weird, weird noises, and –
Elissa: It makes weird noises; it, it, like, it does weird things?
Sarah: Yeah.
Elissa: And, and the hymen is not where people think it is!
Sarah: No, it is not in the valley; it is not up the canal.
Elissa: We need to, we really need to, like, have some serious conversations about, like, sex ed and –
Sarah: [Laughs]
Elissa: – and what we’re getting wrong and –
Sarah: And the, and the physical body folklore –
Elissa: – and it’s because we’re all in the patriarchal soup –
Sarah: Yep.
Elissa: – and we don’t know –
Sarah: Yep.
Elissa: – and it’s no one’s fault.
Sarah: Yep.
Elissa: Ex-, I mean, it’s, it’s, you know, the Religious Right’s fault; I’ll blame them.
Sarah: Fine with me.
Elissa: Yeah. But –
Sarah: Yeah. Let’s blame them.
Elissa: – I mean, I think for the most part it’s like, you know, we do ha-, like, I, a lot of people learn about sex from romance novels, and so –
Sarah: Absolutely, they do.
Elissa: – I feel like it is kind of our obligation to get the biological stuff correct.
Sarah: Yes. Absolutely.
Elissa: So let’s re-explore where the hymen is, guys.
Sarah: Yeah.
Elissa: It’s not, it’s not one of those things that a bunch of, like, sports fans run through and break? You know, it’s like, I feel like that’s how we describe it. [Laughs] Yeah, it’s like, you don’t, you don’t break – and also, a penis cannot tell there’s a hymen.
Sarah: No. Not that sensitive.
Elissa: It’s not that sensitive.
Sarah: Nope.
Elissa: It’s, it’s, it’s not all-knowing.
Sarah: No. It doesn’t twitch!
Elissa: It doesn’t even twitch, guys; it doesn’t even twitch.
Sarah: Doesn’t even twitch! [Laughs]
Elissa: We need to – [laughs] –
Sarah: It doesn’t think, doesn’t have a name; it doesn’t twitch.
Elissa: We need to re-explore our –
Sarah: Yeah.
Elissa: – our relationships with penises in, in romance.
Sarah: So what are you working on right now?
Elissa: So – [laughs] – what was I talk – it was just like, oh, just penis twitches. Just –
Sarah: Dick twitching. I’m –
Elissa: – just a book of, just dick twitching.
Sarah: Poetry about dick twitches: I would, I would read that –
Elissa: [Laughs] It’s poetry!
Sarah: – by the way. I would totally read that.
Elissa: I mean, I – one day.
Sarah: Would read, read the hell out of that.
Elissa: There’s an anthology of, of dick twitching poetry.
Sarah: [Gasps] Oh my gosh! Yes, please!
Elissa: We just, we just put the call out.
Sarah: Yeah, let’s do it.
Elissa: So I’m working on my next book, which hopefully will come out in spring of 2023, and I can’t say too much about it, but it is about celebrity as well.
Sarah: Yay!
Elissa: And it is about our relationship with celebrity, and it does have dual timelines, and that’s all.
Sarah: I love it!
Elissa: But hopefully I’ll be able to start talking about it in the next few months.
Sarah: Ohhh, excitement! Will you come back on the show and tell me all about it?
Elissa: Hell yeah!
Sarah: Yay!
Elissa: Anytime!
Sarah: Please!
Elissa: I love this; this is great.
Sarah: I’ve had the best time talking with you. So I always –
Elissa: This is so much fun, you know! [Laughs]
Sarah: I always ask this question: what books are you reading right now that you want to tell people about?
Elissa: So I have a really, really great stack of books that I haven’t – well, I’ve read one of them, but the rest are all books that I’m, like, really excited about?
Sarah: Tell me all the things.
Elissa: So the one that’s come out is Katie Cotugno’s Birds of California.
Sarah: Ooh!
Elissa: It’s her adult debut. I’m a huge Katie, like, she’s a friend of mine, but I’m, like, a huge fan of her writing, and I think she is so good with details and specificity and it’s just wonderful, wonderful writing.
I have a copy of Queerly Beloved by Susie Dumond, which I am so excited about. It’s got baking and small towns and found families, and I’m just yes! It just came out.
And then Alexis Hall’s A Lady for a Duke, which I’ve heard just amazing, amazing things about. I’m so – like, I – these are all the books that I’m, like, taking on my vacation, so I’m, like, holding off on reading them because I want to, like, sit on a beach and savor them?
Linda Holmes’s Flying Solo, which I’m so excited about? So, so excited about.
Sarah: Yes!
Elissa: And, and as you will know from the, from our Discord, I am constantly talking about Julie Anne Long’s books? I love her; I think she’s such a great writer, and she has a book coming out.
Sarah: Speaking of details and specificity, yes!
Elissa: Details and specificity! She’s, I think she just is, she has such a way – like, her humor is just exactly what I want.
Sarah: Yes.
Elissa: It’s like, it’s just, I feel like she writes for me?
Sarah: [Laughs]
Elissa: I know she doesn’t, but I think it, I just, it’s, like, so comforting, and so she has a book coming out in June called You Were Made to Be Mine, which is part of her Palace of Rogues series, which is a series I am just bananas about.
So, so many good books coming out. I’m so excited. Do you have any books for me? Do you have any books to recommend to me?
Sarah: I do!
Elissa: What are you reading?
Sarah: I do, let me tell you. All right, so last night I started A Lady for a Duke –
Elissa: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Sarah: – and I will show you my phone: I made myself stop at chapter two because it was bedtime, and it was one of the hardest stops because I, I – usually when I edit a review for a book I’m like, oh great, I don’t have to read it; I read the review, I know how – things are good, I can ask the reviewer, so how did it end? What was the twist? Whatever. I read the review for this and I was like, wellll, now I have to read it right now.
Elissa: Oh yeah, that was an amazing, amazing review. That was definitely – I mean, everybody was talking about it ‘cause it came out this week –
Sarah: Yeah.
Elissa: – but that review, I was like, okay.
Sarah: Oh yeah.
Elissa: I’m, I’ve, I’ve gone and bought this book.
Sarah: Wonderful.
Elissa: It’s great.
Sarah: Shana writes great reviews.
So the other book was actually being discussed in the royalty gossip channel of the Sidechannel Discord, is –
Elissa: Oooh!
Sarah: – called HRH: So Many Thoughts on Royal Style by Elizabeth Holmes – not the same Elizabeth Holmes from Theranos, different Elizabeth Holmes. This person’s on Instagram, and they are a fashion journalist who used to work for The Wall Street Journal. So they’re looking at the intersections of fashion and the economics of fashion. You know, fashion’s a billion-dollar industry, but it’s, you know –
Elissa: Oh my God.
Sarah: – it’s girls’ clothes, so we don’t have to pay attention to it. She took a look at the queen and Diana and then Kate and Meghan and looked at their – I love how we just have first names –
Elissa: Of course.
Sarah: – look at the role of fashion, and especially Diana and the queen, how they use fashion as a communicative element and what is the dialogue or even just because it’s fashion, so the monologue, what is, what is it that they’re saying? And as a form of soft diplomacy, as a form of interaction without actually interacting. Like, why, one of the reasons why the queen wears bright-ass neon colors is that if you are two hundred yards away, you take a picture, that little green dot, that was the queen. You knew you saw her, ‘cause there –
Elissa: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: – she’s wearing a big green hat and a big green coat: you can’t – and everyone else is wearing black! So the whole thing about fashion and how they use their celebrity and then how fashion played a role in the development of celebrity is really, really interesting, so I really enjoyed that.
Elissa: Oh my God.
Sarah: In fact –
Elissa: That seems perfect.
Sarah: Ah! My library had it, and I was like, this is perfect for me, and in fact, the other night, after the Robb Elementary shooting, I read some of the Meghan chapter because, you know, I wanted my brain to be in a happy place, and I went to bed – [laughs] –
Elissa: Yes.
Sarah: – and I had a dream that I, that Prince Harry was helping me prepare for a yard sale! [Laughs] And he was really good –
Elissa: Oh my –
Sarah: – with all the little stickers!
Elissa: Oh!
Sarah: And I woke up, and I thought –
Elissa: I love this narrative!
Sarah: I, I woke up and I thought, I just had a dream about Prince Harry, but the part where he was good with the stickers and the yard sale and the organization, that did not shock me at all! I, I am sure –
Elissa: No!
Sarah: – he is incredibly competent! [Laughs]
Elissa: I feel like he would be really good at that!
Sarah: Yeah! And, and when I talked about it –
Elissa: Yeah!
Sarah: – in Sidechannel, everyone was like, yeah, that tracks. Course he would be good at it.
Elissa: Yeah! Yeah.
Sarah: So I really enjoyed that as a – and like you, I really like the intersection of, here is a thing that a lot of people don’t take seriously, but there’s actually a lot of narratives going on inside this that are –
Elissa: Yes!
Sarah: – very interesting, whether it’s romance or celebrity or fashion or royalty. You know, these people are in, emblematic and in participating – well, one of them doesn’t anymore, and one of them’s dead, but – participating in a colonialist empire, like literally, that is what they are –
Elissa: Yeah!
Sarah: – it’s how they have their money! But at the same time, there’s still this obsession with royalty, and what is that about? It’s, it is my jam.
Elissa: And none of this, and none of it is, like, the thought that goes into these things, you know, it’s like there’s, there’s a reason these things exist –
Sarah: Yeah.
Elissa: – and it’s, you know, it’s not accidental –
Sarah: No!
Elissa: – it’s not – you know, like, I think that was the thing I loved so much about Anne Helen Petersen’s thing where she’s really breaking down –
Sarah: This is not an accident.
Elissa: – this is not an accident!
Sarah: This is caused.
Elissa: Like, it seems organic, it seems natural, and that’s when you know they’re doing a good job –
Sarah: That’s right!
Elissa: – because it feels that way.
Sarah: Yep. Everything is caused.
Elissa: And it’s the same thing with the fashion: it’s like, you know, people, like, all of these, you know, celebrities are just like us, or celebrities getting caught, you know, it’s like, they’re not getting caught anywhere –
Sarah: No.
Elissa: – for the most part.
Sarah: No, they, they usually –
Elissa: You know, a lot of them are, are out with their very expensive clothing and their very expensive things that they are also trying to sell –
Sarah: Yep.
Elissa: – and it’s –
Sarah: They call the paparazzi to take those pictures.
Elissa: – it’s a relationship, you know.
Sarah: Yeah.
Elissa: And that’s not all – you know, there are definitely times when the paparazzi are like –
Sarah: Absolutely.
Elissa: – we saw the Britney Spears documentary.
Sarah: Oh yeah. And –
Elissa: That’s –
Sarah: – even, even Justin Bieber will be like, okay, could you just get your five pictures and fuck off, please?
Elissa: Yeah. Yeah.
Sarah: And that’s another level of celebrity, where you don’t get the choice to participate? You just have it foisted upon you and there’s no choice.
Elissa: Yeah, yeah. It’s like this – I, I imagine if you were a celebrity it’s this weird thing of, like, you need to be photographed, and then you get to a certain level where you’re like, I don’t need this and I don’t want it anymore, but ev-, but your career, like, your public persona depends on it, so.
Sarah: If you want to sustain your career, then that’s part of it, yeah.
Elissa: Yeah.
Sarah: And then you get to levels like George Clooney, where he doesn’t have to do anything. You know?
Elissa: Right. But then he, he also, he can’t do anything.
Sarah: Nope. Sitting around Italy.
Elissa: So it’s like, is it worth it? Maybe!
Sarah: I don’t know –
Elissa: Who knows?
Sarah: – I like to think he just sits around in Italy and eats a lot of pizza.
Elissa: I hope so.
Sarah: I hope so.
Elissa: Oh, did you, they did an interview with him where he talks about, he cuts his own hair!
Sarah: [Laughs]
Elissa: With a Flowbee! He has a Flowbee!
Sarah: Get the fuck out of here! He has a –
Elissa: I’m not even – he has a Flowbee where he cuts his own hair.
Sarah: Okay, this is the moment of my day, like, if I’m going to, like, journal later tonight: George Clooney has a Flowbee is the thing I learned.
Elissa: It’s a Flowbee.
Sarah: Today I learned. Oh my God.
Elissa: Yes. I hope it’s true. I hope that, like, I would be so sad if that –
Sarah: I hope so!
Elissa: – was not true and that was just a joke, but –
Sarah: I really hope so. Like, I – yeah, I’m with you: he has to have a really good, brrr! That’s amazing.
Elissa: Yeah.
Sarah: All right, where can people find you on the interwebs?
Elissa: So I am on and off the internet, but –
Sarah: I understand!
Elissa: [Laughs] I mean, it’s just, it’s a lot going on, guys!
Sarah: It’s a bit much, yes.
Elissa: It’s a bit much! But I, I’m mostly on Instagram. I’m like the only Elissa Sussman. You can just google me and I’m around.
Sarah: You’re the only one? I will link to everything, too, in the show notes.
Elissa: In the world, yeah, so it’ll be there. And I’m on Twitter a tiny, tiny bit. I have a newsletter which does not come out that often, but when it does there are always pictures of my dogs, so you can sign up for that on my website.
Sarah: Win!
Elissa: I mean, I should send one out soon. I’m very bad about newsletters, but I, I try to, I try to include dog pictures, and then I really like jam, so if I have a good jam recommendation I will include that.
Sarah: Ooh!
[music]
Sarah: And that brings us to the end of this week’s episode. Thank you to Elissa for hanging out with me and talking about all of the things. I cannot tell you how much I enjoyed this conversation.
Thank you again to Melissa Folds and Courtney Mocklow at Penguin Random House for setting up this interview, and thank you – you, you-you – for listening. It’s an honor to keep you company while you do the things you do while you listen to podcasts.
I am curious: do you have a favorite celebrity profile? Do you follow celebrity gossip at all? What sites are your faves? I would really like to know. I can tell you that while I do not follow the DeuxMoi Instagram feed, I do love the DeuxMoi subreddit, because the people there are very kind and very funny.
So tell me your favorites; I would really love to know. You can email me at [email protected], or you can leave me a message and tell me a joke at 201-371-3272. You know I love terrible jokes.
And I, I have one for you in just a moment, but first I need to apologize: if you opened the podcast app and suddenly found that every single episode, all 515 of them, showed up as new, I am so sorry. I was trying to fix a problem with Google Podcasts, and while I did solve that issue – go me! – I might have caused another problem. So if you opened up your podcast app and suddenly had an absolute bumper crop of podcasts from my show to listen to, I’m really sorry about that. Thank you for your patience; I very much apologize for that error.
To make it up to you, I have a really bad joke, and this joke is from Summer, who is part of our Patreon community. Summer sent me screen grabs of a joke from a webtoon called “My Love, My Story” by tcbunnycomics, and Summer, this completely made my day; thank you so much. Are you ready?
Did you hear about the guy who invented the knock-knock joke?
Did you? Did you hear about the guy who invented the knock-knock joke?
He won the no-bell prize.
[Laughs] Nobel! It’s so silly! Thank you so much, Summer! This completely made my week.
I will have links to all of the profiles that we talked about, all of the celebrity profiles that are linked. We have a lot of links to GQ, which is not a thing I’ve done before; it was very fun. And of course I will link to all the books we talked about, so you can get a head start on all of your reading if you visit the show notes.
But until next week, we wish you the very best of reading! Have a wonderful weekend, and we’ll see you here next Friday.
Smart Podcast, Trashy Books is part of the Frolic Podcast Network. You can find outstanding podcasts to subscribe to at frolic.media/podcasts.
[bouncy music]
This podcast transcript was handcrafted with meticulous skill by Garlic Knitter. Many thanks.
Really loved this conversation, despite not having heard of half the celebrities. Thanks for sharing it with us.
Thanks for a very entertaining interview and a fun joke!
Is there anywhere to simply download the episode by itself? My podcatcher is being weird and not showing this. 🙁 It seems to have a right address for the feed, so I don’t know what’s going on.
I’m also unable to play this episode. My podcatcher (Pocketcasts) loaded the file, but it won’t play. I was able to come to this page on my phone and just play it directly from here. I figure I’ll wait until next week and see if it happens again or was just a one-time bug.
@Bransler @Sue – thank you for letting me know! I moved the podcast over to a dedicated podcast host and will try to figure out what went wrong. I’m sorry about the trouble!
@SB Sarah – It just showed up for me, so whatever you did worked? Anyway, yay! I can listen not tethered to my computer!
I have added ‘Funny You Should Ask’ to my wishlist purely on the basis of this chat. 🙂
Am also going to read that GQ Tom Hiddleston profile right now.
@SB Sara – It seems to be solved! Thanks.
YES. Thank you for letting me know! Moving the podcast from my own server to a dedicated podcast host is supposed to be easy.
LOLOLOLLLL. Thank you for letting me know about the problems, and most of all thank you for listening!
Google Podcasts must really not want to play nice with your tech 🙁 Whatever fixed it for the other podcast apps, it didn’t work for me.
I was finally able to listen to the ones from a few weeks ago without it yelling at me about the feed being unsecured though! Thank you for all the tech wrangling, and also for doing this amazing podcast!
@Alanna: I’m so sorry about that. Google is refusing to see the new feed, and I keep nudging it every day. ARGH I’m so sorry about the delay!
In Singing in the Rain, which everyone needs to watch at least once in their lives, the female lead pretends she is so snobby and only follows actors in the theater. It’s revealed later, that she has pretty much a whole shrine of magazine photos and cut-outs dedicated to the male lead, who is a famous movie actor transitioning from silent to talking movies.
I LOVE that you bring up the Miles Teller piece that Anna Peele wrote for Esquire. I remember getting sucked into her writing and this profile where she can really see through his bullshit but also hasn’t totally dismissed him. When I was reading this book I kept thinking about that specific profile and how I wish Anna Peele would get a book deal the way Chani did! I actually found this podcast because I was trying to see who else was able to make that comparison