487. The Wit and Wisdom of Bridgerton with Julia Quinn

[music]

Sarah Wendell: Hello! Thank you for letting me into your eardrums again this week! I’m Sarah Wendell; this is Smart Podcast, Trashy Books, episode number 487. My guest today is Julia Quinn! She joins me to talk about The Wit and Wisdom of Bridgerton, a new release collecting quotes about the different characters, plus new commentary from Lady Whistledown! It’s very fun.

I have questions from members of the Patreon, so to Katerine, Crystal, Rhonda, Katherine, Agnes, Kelly, Laura, and Kate, thank you for the questions.

I also want to let you know that at about forty-two minutes in [42:00], we’re going to talk about her recent loss of her father and her sister in a vehicular homicide. She also shares some very funny memories of her sister.

And we have some behind-the-scenes details about Bridgerton season two. We cover a lot in this interview.

Hello and thank you to our Patreon community, who makes episodes like this possible by making sure that I have really interesting questions to ask and that every episode, like this one, receives a transcript! If you’d like to have a look at our Patreon community, it is patreon.com/SmartBitches.

If you are looking for more podcasts to listen to, may I introduce to Wit Beyond Measure?

Elle Kammerer: Are you a fan of stories with strong female leads, witty banter, and romantic themes? Do you revel in writing that examines the timeless relatability of human existence? If you answered yes to one or more of these questions, then you may be a fan of Jane Austen, and in that case Wit Beyond Measure is the podcast for you.

Catrina Mayer: It doesn’t matter if you’re reading Austen for the first time or if your well-worn copy of Pride and Prejudice is your go-to read; Wit Beyond Measure will be your next favorite podcast. Wit Beyond Measure is found wherever you listen to podcasts, and follow them on Instagram @wbmpodcast.

Sarah: I will have links to where you can find Wit Beyond Measure in the show notes at smartbitchestrashybooks.com/podcast or in the little window thing that comes with your podcast app where get all the details about the show.

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I am so excited to share this episode with you. On with my conversation with Julia Quinn.

[music]

Julia Quinn: My name is Julia Quinn, and I am an author of historical romance novels.

Sarah: Yeah, I think that about sums it up, right?

Julia: It pretty much does! I mean, I’ve got a couple side projects going right now –

Sarah: Yeah?

Julia: – like the thing on Netflix? But, you know.

Sarah: I’ve, I’ve heard a few things about the thing on Netflix?

Julia: [Laughs]

Sarah: Just a little bit about it?

Julia: It’s a little crazy, but awesome.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Julia: Crazy awesome!

Sarah: I have a bunch of questions from members of my Patreon, and –

Julia: Okay.

Sarah: – let’s start with Katherine’s question: is there going to be a new book or series or content, or is Bridgerton all-consuming for a few years?

And I was so excited when I got this question, ‘cause I was like, I already know the answer! You have a new book coming out with The Wit and Wisdom of Bridgerton! [Squees]

Julia: Yes. Yes, although –

Sarah: Congratulations!

Julia: – I mean – thank you! – I – this is where I forget I’m doing a podcast, ‘cause I was actually about to pick something up and show everyone.

Sarah: [Laughs] Show and tell!

Julia: Show and tell. You can see. You, it’s kind of new. It, it is a collection of some of the best Bridgerton quotes, but with a little bit of new material in there. So what, what happened was Avon, my long-time publisher, came to me saying they want to do a gift book, and the initial idea was The Wit and Wisdom of Lady Whistledown, and I said, you know, I don’t know if there’s enough material there for a whole book, and my editor said to the people who had pitched it that, she says, that’s what I said! But they said they want to give it a try! Because I think perhaps they didn’t realize that, you know, the people who were, were pitching this, that, you know, Lady Whistledown is actually only in half of the Bridgerton novels, and, and it’s just the opening of, of chapters, and so within a week they come back and are like, yeah, there isn’t enough material for a whole book.

So then we thought of this idea for Bridgerton, and we kind of tossed around the idea of how do you structure it? And the idea was to structure it around each character.

Sarah: Right.

Julia: So we did each of the Bridgerton siblings. We did Kate, Simon, Penelope, Violet, and Lady Danbury. I think I got them all.

Sarah: Yep!

Julia: And for each of them I did write a new Lady Whistledown entry, which was really fun. I hadn’t picked up the Lady Whistledown pen in a really long time, so, you know, it’s a very specific mindset of snark without being super mean, but still being snarky. And, and so it was really fun, but it is mostly material that has been previously published with a little bit of new stuff, a new intro. So yes, that is new, although it is still in the all-consuming Bridgerton world, I suppose.

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

How fun was it to look, look back at the characters and become Lady Whistledown again? ‘Cause you mention in the intro that it’s been twenty years since you’ve written Lady Whistledown’s words. I mean, that’s a really long time, and to have that character evolve and then have a visual representation is really something! How much was it to go back and be Lady Whistledown again for a little while?

Julia: It was, it was really weird and wonderful, I guess, which is kind of a cop-out to say, because you could take that to mean just about anything. I’m not somebody who goes back and rereads my books very often. In fact, I just don’t. When I finish a book, I, I, I’ve read it a hundred times, right?

Sarah: Yeah, oh yeah.

Julia: So, you know, by the time I’m done I’m like, oh my gosh, this thing is so predictable. You know, and of course if you’ve read something a hundred times it’s, it’s incredibly predictable! I mean, it’s a romance, so we all can predict the ending –

Sarah: Right.

Julia: – but, you know, just the little twists and turns, you know, I’m like, oh gosh, ugh. [Laughs] It’s so funny: I’ve had PR people saying, stop telling that story, but it’s true! You know, by the time I’m done, like, gosh, you know, why would anybody want to read this? You could predict every single word! Well, of course you can if you wrote it –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Julia: – and you read it a hundred times.

So I’m generally not interested in rereading my own stuff in its entirety again. I will go back to look for specific things. So this time I had to go back and, if not read them again, do a, a skim, a fairly purposeful skim, trying to find quotations that fit the characters –

Sarah: Right.

Julia: – but also can be used pretty much out of context, which is a little bit difficult. There are some great parts – you know, if I may pat myself on the back – I was like, wow, I really like this! But you just can’t figure a way to pull it out of context. So that was a little challenging, to find the quotations that worked out of context.

So anyway, it was very interesting to go back to these works that I haven’t looked at for so long, because, one, I was like, oh! [Laughs] I’m not that bad, actually! You know –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Julia: – these are, these are kind of fun! You know, I hadn’t, I hadn’t looked at them in so long, but also I’m not a very visual writer. I’ve said that many times –

Sarah: Yes.

Julia: – you know, long before the show. I’m not somebody who sees my characters in my head, and, and I think that makes sense if you read my books. They’re not hugely descriptive, and, you know, I could give you all sorts of, you know, oh, well, I want the reader to be able to imagine them – no! I’m just not a descriptive writer! And so it was very interesting to now have these visual images of the characters in my head.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Julia: And, man, they were absolutely there. I mean, I’m seeing Regé-Jean Page right now, what, you know, every time I read him. I mean, he’s, he will always look like Regé-Jean Page now. I mean, the world would be fabulous if everybody looked like Regé-Jean Page, but –

Sarah: I mean, that is true.

Julia: Yes! I, I may or may not have a photo of me with Regé and his arm around me, like, favorite in my phone?

[Laughter]

Sarah: You know, the only phone picture I have that’s favorited is a high school picture of my husband with a truly majestic mullet that he had at fifteen? I think your favorite is better.

Julia: That’s funny! I, I, now I’m like, here’s a, what else is in the favorites? I mean, I think I have, like, a copy of my driver’s license?

Sarah: Important, yeah.

Julia: Important, but now I’m like, ooh! Do I have any pictures of my husband in the favorites? ‘Cause that’s, that’s maybe not good.

Sarah: Well, I mean, mine is, he’s fifteen with a gigantic mullet, so it’s not like it’s a romantic picture. Mostly I provide it as visual evidence when I say, oh yeah, in high school, when I met my husband, he had a really big mullet, and people are like, really? And I’m like, just wait right there! I’ll show it to you!

Julia: Well, you know, this is what happened, too, because everybody kept asking to see this picture so much of – oh, I do have a cute picture of Paul and me favorited; I feel better now.

Sarah: Okay, good! [Laughs] Glad, glad you sorted that!

Julia: But everybody kept asking to see it, so I needed to make it favorited, so.

Sarah: Holy – oh dear God!

Julia: For all you people who, who can’t actually see what’s happening, I just showed her the picture. But now I feel like I must show you this picture: there I am with my, my actual husband.

Sarah: That’s fine! I get it!

Julia: That’s fine. Like, he’s nice.

Sarah: Yeah.

Julia: Oh, I have some good stuff in here favorited! My goodness! My most embarrassing moment from high school?

Sarah: Oh my God!

Julia: Yeah, just picture that on a screen in front of the entire student body.

Sarah: No! Explain this photo, please? What?

Julia: Okay. Well, for the, the story to make sense, you have to know that my maiden name is Cotler, and you also have to know that there’s a brand of clothing called Cotler jeans or Cotler Pants or something, and I am not related to these Cotlers; I’ve never met these Cotlers. All I know is that they make pants, and maybe they make other stuff, and, and maybe they still make them, I don’t know, but they did in the ‘80s when I was in high school.

And so I went to a private school where sometimes we would have these all-school meetings in the auditorium and you, they would take attendance because they want, you had to be there; you had to attend these, these lectures. And so we had this lecturer come in, he was a sociologist from Harvard, I think, and he was talking about, like, subliminal messages and the power of advertising.

Sarah: Oh no.

Julia: Yeah, and, and so there’s a slide show going on, and we’re in the auditorium, and normally you have to sit in alphabetical order –

Sarah: Oh no!

Julia: – and so that’s so they can take your – ‘cause you have an assigned seat that you go to, and you sit in your assigned seat for every single all-school meeting, and, but we do this thing where, like, you know, whenever we were having these evening meetings, sometimes you would switch with somebody so you could sit next to your best friend. So that was really good; so I was not seated in the Cs. I had switched with somebody so I could sit over in the Ks with my, my roommate.

This guy gets up there and he goes, and as always, sex sells, and then this image comes up which I, I will describe to you, and I will provide Sarah with a link so she can show you all, but it’s from Cotler Pants, and it says “EVERYBODY’S GETTING INTO COTLER’S PANTS.” And it didn’t say Cotler Pants, which is the name of the jeans. It was Cotler’s, apostrophe s, possessive, pants, and it has this image of this, this guy –

Sarah: No!

Julia: – it’s his naked – I mean, it could be like a really bad romance novel cover, I think. He’s, he’s not wearing a shirt, and there’s this woman who looks positively feral, and she’s like wrapped around him with her, her hand like in the back of his pants and her legs wrapped around. I mean –

Sarah: It’s very provocative.

Julia: It, I, I don’t know if that’s provocative; it’s just, like –

Sarah: Bizarre! She looks like she’s going to, like, take a bite out of his carotid artery.

Julia: Doesn’t she look a little vampirish? So this goes up on the giant screen –

Sarah: Oh God.

Julia: – in the auditorium, and I’m a senior, so, like, even if people don’t know me, most people are kind of aware that somebody at the school with this name exists, and there’s a moment of absolute silence –

Sarah: Oh gosh.

Julia: – as everybody takes this in, and then the auditorium just goes crazy.

Sarah: [Laughs] Oh no!

Julia: As I’m sure you can imagine, people are hooting and hollering, and they’re yelling my ex-boyfriend’s name. The guy on stage is sort of like –

Sarah: What.

Julia: – what the heck is happening? You know, he has no idea. And I’m, meanwhile sinking into my seat, and my roommate’s next to me going like, oh my God! Oh my God! Oh my God! And just like –

[Laughter]

Julia: You know, and I’m going like – I, I mean, I can’t even speak, and she’s going, oh my God! Oh my God! And everybody – I mean, it was just, I think it took, in my imagination it took like a good two minutes for everybody to calm down. It was probably still a full minute. It was – I actually went back to my high school and delivered the commencement address this year, and I included that story, and I got them even to put the, the image up, and I, in my, I said, this is my gift to so you know that your most embarrassing moment here will never be the most embarrassing moment here, because that one belongs to me!

Sarah: [Laughs]

Julia: You know. So I guess, I guess the, the story is that if you’re going to give a commencement address somewhere, you know, show them the, the awful story of you getting, like – [laughs] –

Sarah: Completely embarrassed on a massive screen scale, yeah.

Julia: On a massive screen scale! I mean, this is like a movie-theater-size screen with that thing on it.

Sarah: Oh God!

Julia: So anyway, I put this up on Instagram ages and ages ago, and I will send Sarah the link so she can link to it.

Sarah: Yeah, it’s really something. Oh my God.

Julia: It, it is really something, and I think that I’m glad to spread this joy to everyone.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Julia: It’s one of those things I have, I’ve reached the age where – and actually, you know, I pretty quickly was able to see the humor in it.

Sarah: Right.

Julia: I, I actually now, looking back on it, I shudder to think, like, what if that had happened to, you know, a different girl on campus –

Sarah: Oh yeah!

Julia: – who, who could have been, like, slut-shamed in a terrible way. You know, just, these are things that – that didn’t occur to me at the time?

Sarah: Yep.

Julia: I mean, I don’t think we were all thinking about that sort of thing then? But that was an exciting moment in my high school years.

Sarah: And now it’s preserved forever on Instagram.

You mention in the intro – and you just mentioned – that when you were rereading the originals to compile all of these quotes, you heard and saw the actors in their roles –

Julia: Oh yeah.

Sarah: – which I completely agree: like, those are the voices I’m going to hear. Rhonda asked, actually asked a, a related question: I’m curious about your thoughts on the inevitable changes between the book and the film/TV, especially a decision to reveal Lady Whistledown’s identity to the viewers at the end of season one. And I, I recently saw an Instagram video, she says, with the cast that said it was a reshoot to change the ending that was originally planned.

I did not know that!

Julia: Yes. So this is one of those things where I’m not sure how much I can tell.

Sarah: I understand completely.

Julia: First of all, I need to make it clear I am not in the writers’ room. And, and I think that that’s a good thing. As much as, like, you know, me, you know, wanting to be a joiner and a part and everything, would love it, I also think that my presence would be disruptive, because I don’t know that people would feel free to express all their opinions if the author of the source material was there.

So I’m not in the writers’ room; I’m not part of these, these major decisions on how to adapt the books, and before I read the very first script I was talking with some people from Shondaland – not, not Shonda this time, but they were like, Shonda says –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Julia: – Shonda says, Shonda says when you read the first script, know there are some obvious changes in especially how we set things up, and just to bear in mind – and I said, well, it’s a different medium, and they said, well, yes, but also bear in mind that in many ways we need to educate the viewership as to what a romance novel is.

Sarah: Oh, that’s a very good point, yeah!

Julia: And, and actually, I feel in many ways that’s what season two is doing, because look at the huge uproar when people realized that Regé-Jean Page wasn’t coming back in season two.

Sarah: Right, which made total sense to me! I was like, well, yeah! There’s nothing for him to do! He’s, he’s done his thing.

Julia: Yeah, I mean, and that’s the thing: people who don’t read romance novels expect us to be following the same main two characters the whole time, whereas all the romance novel readers are like, well, no, that’s not how a romance series works.

Sarah: Yeah!

Julia: You get new people! So this is part, part of the education of, of the Netflix viewing public. This isn’t Outlander, which is a series following one couple. This is Bridgerton –

Sarah: Right.

Julia: – which has many different couples. And, and that was actually something I had thought about when they were casting, how it must have been a very different casting experience than anybody’d ever done, because you’re, you’re working with these actors and saying, okay, well, we’re casting in this role, and you’re a supporting member of the cast, and in season three maybe you’ll be the lead –

Sarah: Yeah.

Julia: – but for now you’re supporting, and this is how it works, and –

Sarah: Yeah.

Julia: – it’s, it’s very different. I, I started reading it, and I realized that the way that they had structured it, you know, opening with the presentation, which actually wasn’t in the books; the Lady Whistledown voiceovers provide even more framework than they did in the books.

Sarah: Yeah.

Julia: It was exactly the right way to do it, and I would never have thought of it, which really reinforces my belief that the smartest thing you can do in life is recognize when people are smarter than you.

Sarah: Oh gosh, yes, that’s absolutely true. And when to get out of the way.

Julia: Exactly! And, and, you know, I think I’m a pretty smart person, but I had no experience with television!

Sarah: Nope, me neither.

Julia: This isn’t what I do! And these people did such a great job. And so the, you know, the changes that they made I think were all changes that serve the medium of film and television really well. For example, the, the secondary characters, most of them play a much bigger role in season one than they did in The Duke and I. I mean, they’re in The Duke and I –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Julia: – it was important to make it more of an ensemble show, and I just, I think the changes are fabulous. And, and I love, one of the things I love is that, you know, when I’m stalking the interwebs, sometimes I’ll see people saying, oh, the book is better, and sometimes I’ll see people saying, oh, the show is better. And it’s about half and half, and I’m totally cool with that!

Sarah: Yeah.

Julia: I think that’s great! I think if it was all one or all the other, then one of us wouldn’t have done our job quite as well.

Sarah: Yeah.

Julia: But to have that split means that these two works are really good complements. So, so there’s that.

But getting to the end thing: so I, I think – you know, again, I wasn’t in the writers’ room, so I’m not privy to all of the discussions, and I will say that at first they told me I wasn’t supposed to say that they had originally shot something else.

Sarah: Ooh!

Julia: But – I know – well, Nicola let it go, so I’m like, I’m okay! Now I can talk about it.

Sarah: Nicola knows everything!

Julia: And she is also the nicest person in the history of the world. I want to make that clear.

Sarah: Oh, that’s so lovely. When I saw her –

Julia: She is –

Sarah: – on the British Bake Off special I thought, wow, she seems so charming?

Julia: She’s wonderful. She’s, she is truly as wonderful as you think she is. I mean, not that, like, I know her deeply super well, but I, I actually have had more communication with her than most of the other cast members, and she, she is truly, truly one of this, this planet’s most wonderful individuals.

But anyway, so I read it, and, and I, I – what they were doing at the end is it looked like they were just throwing a red herring. Like, it was always – they were never not going to make it Penelope, but they were going to throw a red herring to sort of trick people. And I think in the end the decision was made that, you know, everybody’s just going to google this. [Laughs]

Sarah: Yeah. ‘Cause you could figure it out; it’s in some of the descriptions and the reviews and the comments. Yeah, it’s pretty – it’s kind of like, is a movie a spoiler once it’s being shown on an airplane? Can you talk about a movie when it’s on, like, you know, Delta domestic flights? When, when is it a spoiler? It – argh!

Julia: Exactly.

Sarah: Hard to say –

Julia: Yeah.

Sarah: – but this is old info.

Julia: Exactly, and so I think they were just like, you know, we could be trying to fool people, but you know – and it’s one thing to fool, you know, try to fool them for the first eight episodes when nobody knows to look up –

Sarah: Right.

Julia: – you know, other than the readers. At this point I think they – so they reshot it, but what’s really funny is, they didn’t tell me they reshot it.

Sarah: Oh no! [Laughs]

Julia: So I got all the episodes before you did, early versions that I saw in this sort of proprietary Netflix video file sharing thing –

Sarah: Yes, the press room, yeah.

Julia: – [laughs] – and so you should have seen me when I was like, what?!

Sarah: [Laughs]

Julia: So I actually, I got the same surprise as everyone else. I thought it was going to be the other ending.

Sarah: Oh wow.

Julia: So, you know, I mean, how ‘bout that? I mean, plot twist that the author didn’t know about! [Laughs] I was just like, and I’m like, well, like, I’ve got my email out! Like, ahhh! What happened?!

Sarah: [Laughs] But I think the way that they ended up revealing it really, really worked! Like you said, it introduces everybody to this character who is both very powerful and not very powerful, and then you get the full context of that character in the first season.

Julia: Yeah, and hopefully it makes everybody want to go back and watch it again. I don’t know. It’ll be interesting to see, you know, how they move forward with this, because Lady Whistledown did do some things – you know, with the changes that were between the book and the television show – she, she did do some things that were, perhaps, had more real-world consequences than she did in the book.

Sarah: Yeah.

Julia: So that’s, that is interesting.

Sarah: Now, Agnes actually asked how involved you were in the production of Bridgerton – which she said she enjoyed a lot. Does production cut into your writing time? Now, I know that you aren’t involved, ‘cause you just said so, but I know that you, you visited during the filming of season one, and I’m presuming that’s not possible with COVID protocols for season two, but do you get to see the scripts for season two? What is your involvement with the seasons two, three, and four?

Julia: Okay, well, first of all, I did actually get to visit for season two.

Sarah: Oh, that’s awesome!

Julia: Yeah, I didn’t – also on Instagram – I didn’t get to do, I mean, spend as much time as I did for season one. The COVID protocols were quite strict, which is excellent.

Sarah: Yeah.

Julia: I think anybody who follows me in any social media aspect knows that I am a big proponent of science. [Laughs]

Sarah: Aren’t you married to an infectious disease specialist?

Julia: Yeah, my husband is a board-certified medical doctor in the field of infectious diseases.

Sarah: So this is slightly something you might know a little bit about.

Julia: Yeah! Well, a little bit more than the average bear, but not as much as a doctor.

Sarah: Right.

Julia: We keep talking about this; we haven’t scheduled it, but I will say that we’re going to do this now so that we get locked in: I’m actually planning to do a Facebook Live with him so that readers can ask him questions.

Sarah: I think that is such a smart idea! Given the amount of misinformation that’s running around Facebook every twelve seconds, that is really, really smart!

Julia: You have to wait twelve seconds for misinformation? Mine is much faster than that.

[Laughter]

Sarah: Well, you know, I don’t always check it.

Julia: He’s also a, he’s really good at explaining things. He, he wins teaching awards. He, he’s a professor at University of Washington in the medical school, and he wins teaching awards all the time. He’s done over two hundred interviews during the pandemic, mostly because, I, I think when a reporter finds a doctor or a scientist who can actually speak articulately and at a level that lay people can understand, they just grab them. They’re like, we are going to call you forever.

Sarah: Yep!

Julia: And so – in fact, there’s this one reporter here in Seattle, the local news, we love. Her name’s Tammy Mutasa, and he’s in so many interviews with Tammy that when he did one for someone else we were all like, you’re cheating on Tammy!

Sarah: [Laughs]

Julia: It’s not cool! [Laughs]

Sarah: She’s going to be really hurt, man.

Julia: Yeah! We’re like, we really like Tammy! Tammy, by the way, is originally from Zimbabwe, which is also where Regé-Jean Page is originally from, and she was telling me how, like, he’s basically like national, like, hero of the, of the whole country right now. She said, you can’t go anywhere without people being like, oh my God, you know, he’s from here!

Sarah: [Laughs] That’s awesome! I mean, he was, he was a heartthrob in how many languages?

Julia: Many, many, many. I think we hit the top ten – well, we hit the top ten of Netflix in every Netflix country in the world except – I should make people guess, but – except Japan. Every other country in the world we hit the top ten, and in I don’t remember how many, we hit number one. But it was, it was really, really remarkable.

Sarah: Did you think that would happen when it was optioned? Did you think this was going to – I mean, it had a perfect landing at the perfect time, when we most needed an absolutely glorious piece of eyeball candy –

Julia: Yes.

Sarah: – and I remember, I said this when we were discussing it, and, and I’ve said this to a bunch of people: I remember very clearly a moment when I was watching the first episode, thinking, ohhh, so this is what it looks like when someone takes the thing that I love and puts a buttload of money in costume and attention and writing, and treats it with respect as an adaptation. This is what happens? This is what this is like? Oh my God, I love this! [Laughs] Like, I’ve seen it for other genres, but never this one!

Julia: Yeah, pretty much that was my reaction too, and –

Sarah: Yep!

Julia: – I always thought it was going to do well.

Sarah: Yeah.

Julia: For a couple reasons: one, I think Hollywood, you know, being run primarily by a bunch of white guys, wasn’t paying attention to the fact of how many millions of mostly women read romance novels and were dying to have something adapted with a big budget and –

Sarah: Mm-hmm!

Julia: – you know. I mean, we’ve had some adaptations, but they don’t have the money to really put into it to make it super glorious.

Sarah: To make that! That was one of the most opulent things I’ve ever seen with my eyeballs!

Julia: Oh my gosh, yes. And you should try seeing it in person; it’s unbelievable. So I knew that there was this incredible audience for it. So I was pretty sure it was going to be a success. We’d probably get at least one more season. I did not think it was going to do what it did.

Sarah: What it did.

Julia: I mean – or I guess I didn’t not think it. It just, like, I just hadn’t dreamed that big.

Sarah: Do you remember the press event that you did? There were like nine hundred people in that one Zoom, and that’s when I was like, holy crap!

Julia: Yeah. Before they announced, I said to them that there a lot of fans in Brazil.

Sarah: Oh yeah! Oh yeah!

Julia: And, and they were like, oh, okay. I’m like, no, really. There, there, there are a lot of fans in Brazil, and the Brazilian fans are really effusive.

Sarah: Oh, Brazilian fans love the series and love romance.

Julia: Yes. They were like, yeahyeahyeah, okay, rightrightright, and then literally one day after they announced it, they were like, oh my gosh, we need to get an interpreter on staff, because – [laughs] – they couldn’t believe the Brazilian fans! And so, you know, of course they were going to get a lot of the Brazilian fans in there because they just, you know, they make it –

Sarah: It was wonderful!

Julia: It was really exciting, but I do want to do a call-out about Brazilian fans and how much they love romance and that it truly is the work of one person, and that is my editor at Editora Arqueiro, who, her name is Nana Vaz de Castro, and she was an exchange student in the United States, I think for high school, and while she was here she started reading Regency romance historicals and loved them! She ended up going into publishing, and she pitched to her bosses, she said, look, I don’t know why – you know, Brazilian publishing was doing contemporary romance –

Sarah: Right.

Julia: – but not tons of it. Like, Nora Roberts was, you know, stuff like that. And she said, I really want to do these historical romances. They really had only been done there in a very kind of fly-by-night way.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Julia: Like, newsprint, sold in kiosks. She said nobody had been properly publishing them as real books.

Sarah: Mm-hmm!

Julia: And so she started a program at Arqueiro with me and Lisa Kleypas and Mary Balogh. Just the three of us launched, and it was such a success that, you know, they started slowly adding in more authors, and then other publishers started doing it too, but it really honestly comes down to this one person saying, I really think there’s a market here, and I think we can bring this in to this country. And so –

Sarah: That’s so cool!

Julia: Yeah. She’s, she’s amazing. She’s one of the, just the loveliest people.

Sarah: That’s amazing!

So Kelly asked: I know the Bridgertons are all the rage, deservedly, but Miranda Cheever is my favorite Quinn heroine.

Julia: Oh?

Sarah: Which of your non-Bridgerton characters are closest to your heart?

Julia: Those – it’s always so hard to, to answer that, ‘cause, like, they’re all, they all, they all have something different –

Sarah: Yeah.

Julia: – that are important to me. I really, I find the ones that, like, are maybe the closest to my heart are often not the main characters? Because, like, sometimes I can have more fun with the side characters. So I’m going to go right now with Frances, who is the, like, twelve-year-old girl in the Smythe-Smith quartet who is obsessed with unicorns? It’s really funny; like, I think Frances got to be such a thing that people assumed I was obsessed with unicorns?

Sarah: [Laughs]

Julia: I actually, you know, have, can take unicorns, leave – I mean –

Sarah: They’re fine!

Julia: They’re fine!

Sarah: Yeah!

Julia: I mean, I like, whatever, you know. Be really cool to poop rainbows. I don’t know! I had so much fun with Frances! I’ve gotten, a lot of people will ask me to write the story about Frances, and I don’t think I can because I just, I can’t grow her up.

Sarah: Agnes asked: Is there anything that you’re interested in, in exploring or haven’t gotten around to, and Laura had a related question: I appreciate the risks she’s taken on some books, such as the dual point of view Two Dukes of Wyndham series. What is something else you’d like to try in the future?

Julia: Ooh, I don’t know, but I would just like to say thank you for bringing that up, because I’m actually, I’m really proud of the Two Dukes of Wyndham. That was – so for people who don’t know this, it was two stories that are interconnected, that share the same external plot –

Sarah: Right.

Julia: – but each have their own love story.

Sarah: Yeah.

Julia: But since they share the same external plot, there are a number of scenes that take place in both books, but from different points of view, and when I was coming up with this whole idea, originally I was thinking one book. You know, I was like, it came about from a, a lyric from a Dire Straits song called “Industrial Disease.”

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Julia: There’s a line in there I remember loving so much. I think I was in high school or junior high when it came out. It was “Two men say they’re Jesus; one of them must be wrong.” Which of course I thought was so clever.

Sarah: Yeah!

Julia: But anyway, so of course being a romance author I’m thinking, okay, well, two men say they’re the duke of something; one of them must be wrong. I was like, ooh, that’s a cool idea. And, and the more I thought about it I, I was like, okay, well, which one would be the bad guy and which one would be the good guy? And then I was like, ooh, what if they’re both good guys?

Sarah: Ooh!

Julia: That, that’s much more interesting and much more, like, you know, Julia-Quinn-ish, because I don’t do bad guys as much as a lot of other people, and so then I was like, okay, now I have two books, and I realized that in order to, to write these two books so that neither story was overly formed by the other story, I was going to have to write them simultaneously.

Sarah: Ouch, brain!

Julia: Yeah. And so the first big challenge was to write the joint outline.

Sarah: Right, right, right.

Julia: Which I think I went through like seventeen versions of. I mean, not seventeen completely fresh versions; it’s just edited, because I actually kept switching who fell in love with whom.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Julia: And then, you know, I write them simultaneously because I just, I wanted to make sure that I didn’t box the other couple into a corner –

Sarah: Right.

Julia: – and I allowed them to do what those characters wanted to do kind of in real time as I wrote it. It was an incredibly wonderful writing experience for me which I will never do again.

Sarah: [Laughs] So Kate wanted to know: what are your comfort reads? What are things that you read for comfort? Or watch, ‘cause there’s a lot of comfort watching going on too.

Julia: Ah, I’ve been definitely doing a lot of watching, ‘cause that’s something I can do more easily with my family. I will say, I don’t know if it’s comforting, but my husband and I have been watching Succession, which is amazing; so well written. You know, you know a big comfort watch is, is Call the Midwife?

Sarah: I have heard people say that it’s really comforting television.

Julia: It is! There’s something very gentle about it.

Sarah: Have you watched the first season of All Creatures Great and Small, the new version?

Julia: I have not!

Sarah: Okay, it’s gorgeous, pastoral countryside eye candy. So far it is so pretty and comforting and cozy, like the original story but the, the, the cinematography is just gorgeous!

Julia: Oooh, ooh.

Sarah: Yeah. Which is part of what I like about this, this kind of comfort show: it’s, it’s eye candy as much as it is brain candy.

Julia: Yeah, I feel like I need to, like, comfort-read books? I read a lot of hockey romance.

Sarah: No kidding!

Julia: I am not sure why. I also love, I love dystopian books.

Sarah: Really!

Julia: And post-, post-apocalyptic books, and so if people, if people have suggestions, I would, you know, please put them in the comments of this podcast, because I would love, I’d love to read them. One, one I really liked: Life As We Knew It, which was, I am blanking on the author’s name – Susan Beth Pfeffer, that’s it. So that was a Young Adult novel, and it came out, gosh, over a decade ago, I’m sure –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Julia: – and the plot of that one was that, I think a, a meteor or some sort of object in space hits the Moon, knocks the Moon closer to Earth, and so, and then you have all sorts of things that happen because of that, you know, mostly with tides and, and, and weather patterns and everything, so I thought it was very, very interesting.

Sarah: That is cool!

Now, I don’t know how much you can say about season two of Bridgerton in progress. Is there anything you can say about it? Like, are you, do you scripts? Do you get pictures?

Julia: I do get scripts in general. So I am a consultant on the series, which, which doesn’t necessarily mean I, I do a lot, but I’m, I’m there if they need me. It’s, it’s delightful. I, I assume you saw the clip from season two?

Sarah: I did!

Julia: I mean, is she Kate, or is she Kate?

Sarah: Oh my gosh! Even just the expression on her face, just the smile?

Julia: Yeah.

Sarah: The I-am-barely-tolerating-your-behind smile was perfection.

Julia: Yeah. And I, so I think, you know, one of the things that I thought was so fascinating about season one was, you know, it did, it absolutely followed the overall story arc of Simon and Daphne. The characters were completely true to who they were in the book, and yet you’d be really hard-pressed to find any part that’s word-for-word pulled from the book.

Sarah: Yeah.

Julia: Lots of scenes were changed in, in meaning, but they – so it’s really a masterful adaptation, and it’s really like that in season two as well. There, there’s very little that’s word-for-word from the book, but the characters are absolutely true to who they are, the overall story is, is true to the, to The Viscount Who Loved Me, and I, I think people are going to love it. I have not seen much more than you have at this point.

Sarah: Right.

Julia: And by much I mean almost nothing. I, I saw what I saw filmed on the day I was on set –

Sarah: Right.

Julia: – and that’s all I’ve seen so far. It was amazing, and, and I think I am allowed to say where they were filming? It was at Hampton Court Palace.

Sarah: Oooh!

Julia: And the only reason I’m allowed to tell you now is that they’re done filming there. Before, they, they, so they’re, they’re like, we’re super secret about where we film because then the press comes, and sure enough, like, there was a paparazzo there, you know, with like a long, one of those super-long telephoto lenses, and, like –

Sarah: Oh wow.

Julia: – somebody from Netflix publicity’s like, all right, we’ve got a paparazzo, you know, in their little walkie-talkie, and –

Sarah: Whoa!

Julia: I know, but, like, I even asked them permission; I was like, look, can I post some pictures on social media? Because I got a private tour of Hampton Court Palace, which I thought was so amazing. I mean, imagine being, like, at, like, the Louvre and having it to yourself or something.

Sarah: That, that’s unreal.

Julia: It, it was absolutely unreal, but, I mean, it was closed to tourists because they were filming –

Sarah: Right.

Julia: – and they arranged for this guy who does PR for six different royal sites to take me and then two people from Netflix on a private tour. And then with the woman who actually has the keys!

Sarah: Oh, that’s unreal!

Julia: Yeah! So we’re going around – there are five of us – you know, and she’s literally, like, opening doors for us, and I got to go in a couple rooms that are not normally open to the public.

Sarah: Oh, that’s so cool!

Julia: They are bedrooms with the original fabric on the beds. The fabric is so old and delicate that just, they, they have to be super careful about light –

Sarah: Yeah.

Julia: – but also just, you put that many people in the room, and even if they’re not touching it, the air and stuff like that –

Sarah: Yep!

Julia: It was incredible, and we got to hear all these really, really cool stories.

Sarah: So what are you working on presently?

Julia: I’m working on life, in general. [Laughs] I –

Sarah: It is a lot.

Julia: Yeah! I, I need to get going on a new novel. I, I haven’t been writing much. Just, life has really gotten in the way. You know, first there was the pandemic, which is still ongoing, and we are incredibly fortunate in that nobody in my family has gotten sick.

Sarah: Yeah.

Julia: Which is wonderful, but my husband is, I mean, he is as exhausted as a human being can be, and, and not just that: he’s exhausted in every possible way a human being can be exhausted. He’s mentally exhausted; he’s physically exhausted; he’s emotionally exhausted.

Sarah: Yeah.

Julia: And, you know, I, my children’s lives were disrupted in a huge way, and so for a while I was just like, you know what? I’m in a position where I can just support my family right now.

Sarah: Yep!

Julia: And, and I’m incredibly fortunate that, you know, I had the financial means to do that, but also I just, like, I just, I just want to be there for them.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Julia: So there was that, and then I, I wasn’t necessarily going to talk about this, but I experienced a great family tragedy this year as well.

Sarah: Yeah, the, the introduction of the, of the book, where you talked about the web of family support that inspired the Bridgertons, that gave me a lot of sympathy and empathy pain for you, because I know that’s a big piece of the web that’s missing now!

Julia: Yeah. So for, for people who may not be aware, my father and youngest sister were killed at the end of June in an accident. Well, no, I don’t want to call it an accident, ‘cause it’s not an accident; it’s vehicular homicide. I still – it’s amazing how quickly you call a car crash an accident, but it is vehicular homicide. They were killed by a drunk driver. There was a catering truck that did not secure their load properly –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Julia: – and something spilled onto the highway, and my father, who was driving, either slowed down or stopped; we, I don’t know which; and they were hit from behind by a drunk driver driving a very large pickup truck; and he had been drinking for three days straight.

Sarah: Good God!

Julia: He had been driv-, he drove from Idaho to Utah, drinking the entire time. His blood alcohol level was three times the legal limit. And so that has really consumed a lot of my life and energy since then.

Sarah: Grief is such an exhausting process, too.

Julia: It is! Also, my sister and I had just finished collaborating on a book.

Sarah: Yes, the graphic novel, the Butterworth novel.

Julia: Yes. And, and that was done. She was actually in the process of fixing something with the black ink, and she was almost done with that, and then of course, you know, after she died – [laughs] – we couldn’t get into her computer to get access to these files. It took us like three months. That’s part of the reason why the book is delayed, but –

Sarah: Right.

Julia: – what ended up happening was, you know, right after their death, HarperCollins pushed the graphic novel back instantly, ‘cause they, you know, they, they were wonderful, like, don’t even worry about it, and I immediately started hearing from readers who were, you know, what’s going on? Why is this, you know, this, ahhh! And they were very upset.

Sarah: Yeah!

Julia: I mean, they weren’t mean, but they were very upset, and then, you know, I was like, I, I can’t deal with this right now, and then people who were like friends of friends of friends who maybe had heard about what had happened but didn’t really know me well enough to have any sort of personal access to me started posting condolence notes –

Sarah: Oh, and you hadn’t said anything!

Julia: – in a public forum. Which is – it’s lovely of them. I, I, I don’t fault them for this at all, but I, it made me realize, I’m going to have to make a public statement.

Sarah: Ouch.

Julia: Which was really odd, and so I did, about, I think it was about a week after it happened. I had not expected it to get picked up the way it did –

Sarah: Yeah.

Julia: – in the news, and it did! I mean, it was covered on NPR! And so it was, it was very odd to have it play out in such a public manner.

Sarah: Yeah. Especially because you se-, you separate your family and your work life very deliberately. Like, you don’t really talk about your kids.

Julia: Right.

Sarah: You, you, you have a pretty firm division between professional and personal, and to have that cross over and then have to, have to navigate that is really hard!

Julia: Yeah, and I’m, you know, and I’m also just learning all these practical aspects of people dying that, you know, I’ve never had to deal with before. I haven’t really wanted to do much writing, but hopefully I will again soon. It’s been very tough, and I’m kind of mentally gearing up to write In Memoriam page for the graphic novel. It’s, it’s really heartbreaking because this was going to be such a big thing for my sister. You know, she’d, she’d had kind of a tumultuous twenties and was really coming out on the other side and was about to do something just amazing and was, we were trying to come up with an idea for another graphic novel. The, the proceeds from this graphic novel will be going towards the healthcare of her husband, who was injured in the crash.

Sarah: Oh no! I’m so sorry that that happened.

Julia: Thank you.

Sarah: Would you be willing to tell me a memory of your sister that makes you laugh?

Julia: The one that comes to first was, she was quite a bit younger than me. She’s my half-sister, so she’s fourteen years younger than, than me, and when I was twenty-seven and she was thirteen, I took her on a trip to England, which was really special, and I had, when I booked all the tickets – and this was when people still used, like, travel agents in person for the most part; it wasn’t all on the web – I, I said to them, you know, we decided we were going to spend, I think, about half our time in London and half our time driving around the country, and I said, I would like to pick up the car at Heathrow, and they said, no, no, no! You can get it right in London! I said, I do not want to drive in central London. I said, I would like to get on the Tube, go all the way to Heathrow, and pick up the car there. And like, no, you don’t want, you, you can get it right in Mayfair! It’d be so much easier for you! I was like, it really will not. Please, please, car, Heathrow. Well, I’m sure you know what happened: I get all my paperwork; it’s like, pick up your car in Mayfair! I’m like, really?!

Sarah: [Laughs]

Julia: And so we go pick up the car in Mayfair, and I am, like, terrified, okay. I’m just like, okay, okay, do not, don’t speak, don’t speak! You know, I’ve got to get, like, you can’t say a word till we get out of town. We must have gone around Hyde Park Corner like fourteen times before I was able to actually exit?

Sarah: [Laughs more]

Julia: And at one point I was like, don’t speak to me, don’t speak to me, and then probably about two or three days into the trip, you know, we’re off, like, somewhere in the countryside; we’re going around a little roundabout; I mean, nobody’s there; she goes, can I talk in the roundabouts yet?

Sarah: [Laughs again]

Julia: Because I had been like, no talking in the roundabouts!

Sarah: [Still laughing]

Julia: – roundabouts yet? That was, that was just like one of those things that would come up every now and then, you know, out of nowhere. She, you know, we’d be driving; she goes, can I talk in the roundabouts? It’s the, you know, roundabouts are very stressful if you were, if you were in a country where you’re driving on the other side and –

Sarah: Oh, forget it! I can’t even cross the street in England! I get, I forget which way. So am I supposed to look right, but look left? But maybe I’m wrong; maybe I should – and then by the time I’ve looked in every direction there’s a car, so I can’t cross!

Julia: And in London you need it ‘cause there’s so many one-way streets –

Sarah: Yeah.

Julia: – so it changes each time. They, they, they paint it on the ground!

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Julia: When you cross the street it says LOOK RIGHT or LOOK LEFT, and I’m just like, I really appreciate this, whoever did this. Thank you for saving –

Sarah: Oh! Oh yeah. Yeah. When I was in, when I was in Australia, it was shortly after the Olympics, and they had that painted on the ground, and I thought, oh, thank you! I like to be able to cross the street without looking like I don’t know where I am on the planet. [Laughs]

Julia: So I’m going to recommend a book to you that actually, that is a huge plot point, looking the wrong way.

Sarah: Really!

Julia: It’s called Code Name Verity –

Sarah: [Gasps] Oookay!

Julia: It is sooo good! That book, the, the only word is devastating. I, I couldn’t put it down. I read it straight until about three in the morning, and then for the next hour just lay paralyzed in bed, staring at the ceiling and being like, what just happened?

Sarah: Oh wow. Now, my next question from Kate is a very important question: what –

Julia: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – is your favorite snack food?

Julia: Oh well, that depends on whether I’m going salty or sweet.

Sarah: This is, this is a very big question! So do you have one for each category?

Julia: I think so, yes. So sweet, I’m an ice cream girl. I can down a pint of ice cream like, like nobody’s business. Like, I have to, like – I really should know better, and I should put some in the bowl, because I will just keep –

Sarah: Yeah! Keep going.

Julia: I love ice – and then for salty, it’s popcorn.

Sarah: Really! Anything on the popcorn? Just salt and butter?

Julia: I mean, salt and butter, that’s the classic.

Sarah: Right.

Julia: But, you know, I love a good cheesy popcorn.

Sarah: Oh, cheese popcorn is the best! Especially when you, the cheese just lives on your fingers and you can’t get it off?

Julia: I know, and then you’re all – [nibbling noises].

Sarah: Yep. Right, you’ve got the weirdest manicure ever? It’s just orange on the ends?

Julia: Yeah. And then, of course, there’s that delicious cheese caramel stuff, too.

Sarah: Oh, that stuff is good.

Julia: That stuff is also good. I am under strict instructions, anytime I go through O’Hare I have to pick that up.

Sarah: Oh yeah! Oh yeah.

Julia: Yeah, that, yeah.

Sarah: I remember when, at the holidays we used to get the, the triple section of, like, big tin of popcorn where one section was white cheese –

Julia: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – one section was cheddar, and one section was caramel, and that was when I realized if you ate some of them together it was mindblowingly good. Do you have a preferred ice cream flavor?

Julia: Oh, I like many, many types of ice cream. I mean, I’m definitely a caramel person.

Sarah: Right.

Julia: I love a good salted caramel. I love anything with dulce de leche, but then sometimes I’m off on a fruit mood. Haagen-Dazs strawberry ice cream. I feel like strawberry ice cream is often overlooked. People just forget, you know, the kind of beauty of, of good strawberry ice cream.

Sarah: It’s true! It’s very true.

So I always ask what books are you reading that you want to tell people about? Or is there any book you want to recommend, beyond Code Name Verity, which was, which is going to destroy me?

Julia: Yeah, that’s going to destroy you, and also Life As We Knew It is good.

So I, I was thinking about this, like, ‘cause I know you always ask people this, and I’m going to recommend that people – and maybe, you know, if they’re Smart Bitches readers, they may already know this, but sort of one historical romance writer that I think is just so under-sung is Julie Anne Long. I think she is such a talented writer, and anybody who likes my books should pick up her books. I think – I mean, it’s, you know, it’s so smart. You know, I’ll be reading them sometimes thinking like, I am such a hack!

Sarah: [Laughs]

Julia: I mean, her books, they’re just really, really smart! And I love, you know, she’s got this long series called Pennyroyal Green, which she’s, I believe she has wrapped that one up –

Sarah: Yeah.

Julia: – and she’s now on a different series, which is also wonderful. The Pennyroyal Green is super fun because, you know, you can pick it up and just keep going.

Sarah: Yep. And there’s an over-arcing mystery that goes through all of the books, which is nice.

Julia: Yeah. And you know, it’s sort of like, you know, I said try Call the Midwife: if you start it you’ve got, what, like ten seasons; you’re all set. So if you start Pennyroyal Green with the first book, which I believe is called The Perils of Pleasure, you are set for a while.

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Julia: But I, I want to say there’s maybe fourteen, and so I think she’s a real unsung hero of historical romance, and I would love for more people to read her books.

Sarah: Thank you so much for doing this interview, and again, my condolences. I’m so sorry that it has been so hard.

Julia: Thank you. I will – oh, I do want to add, actually, one thing that my family has done to honor my father is we’ve established a scholarship in his name for the Summer Science Program, which is a – [laughs] – exactly what it sounds like: it’s a science program for high school students in the summer that he actually took part in when he was sixteen, and then later in his life, when it was starting to fall apart, he and some other alums kind of went in and revitalized it, and now it’s this really well respected, wonderful summer program that does, I think, astrophysics and environmental science, and it’s really wonderful, and so we are working on raising enough money to establish an annual scholarship for a student with financial need.

And then also there will be a Cotler Prize given to the student who, in the opinion of the faculty, demonstrates the most exuberance and love of learning, and if you’ve ever met my dad, there’s nobody who was more exuberant, and there’s nobody who loved learning more, so we felt that that was a fitting tribute.

And I have to say that working on that has been incredibly healing for me. I guess somewhere I’ll post a link, or I’ll give you the link.

Sarah: Oh, give it to me! I’ll put it in the show notes.

Julia: That would be great, and you can just learn a little bit more about the Summer Science Program, because if you have a high school student who’s interested in science, it’s a really great summer program, or if you would like to donate towards the scholarship fund, you can do that.

[music]

Sarah: And that brings us to the end of this episode. Thank you to Julia Quinn for joining me and for sharing memories of her family. I will have links to all of the things that we talked about in this episode, and I will have links to all of the books we mentioned as well. And if you have post-apocalyptic ideas for Julia Quinn, drop them in the comments at smartbitchestrashybooks.com/podcast.

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As always, I end each episode with an absolutely dreadful joke. This joke comes from a recent podcast guest! In episode number 478 in October, Rebecca Slitt from Choice of Games was a guest, and we talked about interactive gaming, and she has sent me a joke. According to Rebecca, Simon Majumdar for the Food Network has a podcast, and he likes to begin every episode with a terrible food pun, and I did not know this. My life has been opened in a new way. But here is this week’s joke, courtesy of both of them:

Where would you go in the bookstore to look for an Indian cookbook?

Where do you go in the bookstore to look for an Indian cookbook?

In the naan-fiction section.

[Laughs] Naan! I love it! It’s a food and a book pun! Oh, so, so cool. Thank you, Rebecca! I am so delighted to have this joke. If you would like to send me a joke, you can always do so at [email protected] or at Sarah with an H at Smart Bitches, Trashy Books dot com [[email protected]].

On behalf of everyone here, we wish you a wonderful weekend with great reading, and if you are celebrating, Hanukkah Sameach. I hope your night and every night is filled with light and really good smells.

Smart Podcast, Trashy Books is part of the Frolic Podcast Network. You can find excellent podcasts to subscribe to at frolic.media/podcasts.

[holiday music!]