476. Behind the Scenes of Reviewing Romance with Shana and Amanda

[music]

Sarah Wendell: Hello there! Thank you for inviting me into your eardrums. I’m Sarah Wendell from Smart Podcast, Trashy Books, and in our last collection of Patreon listener questions we had two inquiries about the process of reviewing: what we look for, what questions we’re trying to answer when we write a review. So Shana joins Amanda and me to talk about the process of reviewing romance. We talk about how reviewing helps us identify what we most like to read and how reading and review-writing works for each of us as writers, plus a little extra insight as to my process and editorial oversight. I want to thank Patreon members Tara C and Leslee for the very kind and thoughtful questions.

And thank you to our Patreon community, who is entirely awesome. Every time you support the show, you’re making sure every episode is transcribed, making sure every episode is accessible, and you keep the show going, which is pretty awesome.

Thank you so much to Laura, Maya, Erin, and Brianna, who are new members of the Patreon. If you would like to take a look: patreon.com/SmartBitches.

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We had such a great time discussing reviewing and answering these questions, so let’s get to it, shall we? On with me and Amanda and Shana talking about reviewing romance.

[music]

Sarah: I would just like to thank Linus for making biscuits over your shoulder.

Amanda: Wait, wait! He’s on my bed?

Sarah: Yeah! He’s behind you.

Shana: Oh my goodness!

Sarah: Yeah, there he is; he’s making biscuits!

Shana: Wow!

Amanda: In my room.

Shana: – In real life?

Amanda: Yeah. This never happens, Shana; I hope you know that.

Shana: [Laughs]

Amanda: You can ask Sarah –

Shana: I feel special.

Amanda: – he never does this.

Sarah: Linus, Linus doesn’t like me. The minute we start talking –

Amanda: He’s out.

Sarah: – he leaves.

Shana: [Laughs]

Sarah: All right, so Tara’s question is:

“What are the processes you go through when you review a book? How do you choose which books to review, what questions do you ask yourself, what makes you want to throw a book across the room, etc…”

I love this question. And then Leslee had a follow-up.

Amanda: Leslee says:

“May I add to this:”

Of course, Leslee, you may.

“what is the…I guess ‘breakdown’ of what the site is looking for a in a review? The reason I follow/trust SBTB specifically in a way that I trust basically no other romancelandia site is because as an almost-strictly histrom reader who falls further on the left side of the political spectrum than the vast majority of other histrom readers with whom she interacts (and there are a LOT),”

she says –

[Laughter]

Amanda: “is because I can depend on the site to point out issues of consent (not just in sex, in RELATIONSHIPS), racism, homophobia, anti-Semitism, etc., but also to discuss the overall shape of the plot, characters, etc, without feeling overly summary-forward or super theoretical. My point is, the reviews here are a REALLY good balance on a number of levels despite being written by a wide variety of reviewers and I’m wondering if there are guidelines, if it’s something you look for in reviewers, etc., etc.”

Sarah: Thank you!

Amanda: Linus is already gone, by the way. [Laughs]

Sarah: Yeah, Linus is like, yeah, you’re talking; I’ve got to go. Linus, Linus’s review of this podcast is, I’m leaving.

But thank you, Leslee, for the compliments. I do work really hard to make those things true, and it really means a lot to me that you noticed, so thank you! That makes my entire week. Probably longer than that, especially ‘cause today is typically the day I do editorial, and these are all things that are on the, the top of my brain.

Shana, I would really love to start with you with the, with, with Tara and Leslee’s questions. What do you do when you go, when you decide to review a book? How do you choose what to review, and what do you ask yourself when you’re doing a review?

Shana: Well, I feel like it’s probably the same process that I go through when I just choose a book to read. It’s just, it’s a book that I like! [Laughs] And probably about half the time I’m deciding to review a book because I love the blurb. Maybe it’s using a trope a little bit differently. It might have succeeded or failed at doing that, but that’s usually why I choose. And then half the time I don’t plan to read a book, or plan, plan to review a book, and I’m just in the middle of reading it, and I think, oh my God, I have to talk to everybody about this. And a good example of that is that hot priest book –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Shana: – that was not actually very hot.

Amanda: Yes! Which was such a good review, by the way.

Shana: Oh, thank you!

Sarah: It was a really, really –

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: – thorough review, and it’s, it’s hard to write a review when you’re like, I have lots to say!

Shana: [Laughs] I had a lot to say about that, and I think the, the final review was like even one-eighth of the things that I could have said! But at some point you can’t actually write a book about the book.

Sarah: [Laughs] Sometimes you can’t write a book about the book!

Amanda: I don’t know; some people have done it.

Sarah: I have done it; I have done –

Shana: [Laughs]

Sarah: – I have done, I have written a book about many books! I wrote books about all the books.

[Laughter]

Sarah: But I, I totally –

Shana: That’s true!

Sarah: It’s true! I have – those, covers right there. I have very much found myself writing a book about a book before. Oh yeah. And, and it’s like when you get going and all of a sudden your brain sort of organizes all the things you have to say, and it’s like, and another thing, and one more thing, and just let me tell you this other part; you’re not going to believe this. Yep! That’s, that definitely happens to me.

Shana: [Laughs]

Sarah: So what questions do you ask yourself when you review, Amanda?

Amanda: Oh boy. I will, I will say, these days, I nope out of book pretty quickly? And – [laughs] – I give it about fifty pages, and if it’s not grabbing me it’s out. And then, you know, there’s always the, the, like, back and forth of, like, do I keep reading this terrible book for the sake of reviewing it so other people know about it, or do I save myself the, the pain and agony?

But, like, like Shana said, I pick up a book because it interests me. Like, why would I want to review – so this has happened with – no offense to Courtney Milan, but The Duke Who Didn’t came out, and I was going to review it, and halfway through I realized, I really don’t like a friends-to-lovers sort of set-up, and I –

Sarah: That is not your jam.

Amanda: No, and I realized this book is not for me. Like, it’s fine, but I don’t think I could have given it, like, a fair shake because I, this trope is already not my bag. So I asked Catherine if she would review it, and of course she did, and it was her jam.

But yeah, I try to mainly stick with books that I know appeal to me, like, character-wise, setting-wise, trope-wise, because if I don’t then, like, I feel as if the review was already starting off on the wrong foot. If I’m just picking up a book that I don’t really – so I don’t, like, read a lot of historical romance, so why would I force myself to read one when they usually don’t interest me?

Sarah: Yeah –

Amanda: So definitely interest is a big part of what I pick up.

Sarah: Yeah, it’s hard to write, to write a review from the perspective of, this is not my jam, and this is yet another example of why this is not my jam. Like, okay, well, as a reader reading that review, how is that useful?

Amanda: Yeah, ‘cause most readers who don’t review books for a job or, or whatever –

Sarah: Yeah.

Amanda: – are only going to pick up books that sound good to them.

Sarah: Right. And there’s, there’s a third classification which I’ll get to in, in a minute, but it is very difficult, I think, to start writing a review of a book from the perspective of, this is not the thing I like, and this is yet another example of why I don’t like it. Now, unless that particular example is doing something extraordinary in a positive or negative or in some other way, there has to be a reason, I think, the underlying reason that you’ve written the review in the first place, and I think one thing that has happened over the years of so many things being reviewed on the internet is that you can almost very quickly tell sometimes exactly what the motivation was, and sometimes it’s not, I read this book and I want to tell you about it? It’s some other thing. Like I’m having a bad day and this is, I’m putting my bad feelings on this review of this vacuum cleaner. Like, okay, you had a bad day –

[Laughter]

Sarah: – and the vacuum didn’t help. I got it. I see exactly what you mean. What makes it complicated with romance is that because they’re about feelings and because they’re meant to inspire emotions, people get emotional about them? That’s completely part of the package. I mean, that’s just part of what happens. Right?

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: Shana, what about you?

Shana: Well, the big reason I was thinking that I wouldn’t review a book is actually usually ‘cause I loved it too much.

Amanda: Hmm!

Shana: So sometimes I read a book and –

Amanda: That’s a hot take, Shana!

[Laughter]

Shana: Sometimes it’s just like I’m just overwhelmed with my feelings, kind of like you were just saying, Sarah. So, like, I just loved it so much I’m, like, incoherent. Like, I just have nothing to say but, like – [gibbers] – beautiful! [Laughs] And, and that wouldn’t be a very interesting review. Like, I read Last Night at the Telegraph Club, which is this, like –

Amanda: Mm, yeah!

Shana: – you know, lesbian historical novel set in like the ‘50s, I think? In, you know, Chinatown in San Francisco, and it was just so beautiful – see, I don’t even know what to say about it now. Like, it was – [laughs] – it was just, like, wonderful, and I loved everything about it, but, like, I just couldn’t decide what to say, other than, like, you should read it! But you might not like it; I’m not sure why I liked it!

[Laughter]

Amanda: Well, one, one thing that we get a, a lot of, and I know, like, I’m guilty of this, and I’m sure, like, Sarah is too is, like, you read a book and you realize, like, this is the right book at the right moment for me –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Amanda: – and, you know, it’s comforting, but it’s like, how is that a review? You know what I mean? I think this ties into, like, you love a book so much because it ticks all the boxes in, like, your current, present place and time, but that isn’t going to be the case for everyone who picks up that book based on your review. So I think the, the balance of loving something but also still being critical can be hard. And sometimes you don’t want to be critical! You just want to enjoy the book because it made you feel good things.

I think for me the, the hardest reviews to write are the ones that are like, it, it was a book. There were some letters on some pages.

[Laughter]

Amanda: Some stuff happened. Do I remember it?  Mmm, not quite. [Laughs] I finished it! Like, you got, you can’t really say it was bad, but you can’t really say it was good. Like, those middle-of-the-road books are –

Sarah: Yeah.

Amanda: – for me, the hardest to –

Sarah: Meh. Meh reviews are the hardest.

Amanda: Right?

Sarah: Like, yeah, those were some words.

Shana: Yeah.

Sarah: ‘Kay.

Amanda: It was okay. [Laughs]

Shana: I think that was even your advice you gave me as a new reviewer, Amanda, because I think my very first review was like a C book. Like, this is so hard! [Laughs]

Amanda: It is! The C ones are so hard!

Sarah: They are.

Amanda: Because it’s, it’s, like, not egregiously bad, but it’s not like, oh my God, you have to read this book right now. And it’s like, how, how much can you keep going in that circle of, like, it was okay?

Shana: [Laughs]

Amanda: Here’s why it was okay.

Shana: It exists. Did it need to exist?

Amanda: [Laughs] Yeah, it exists!

Shana: Probably not.

Amanda: Should you pick it up? I guess. Like, if you want. [Laughs]

Sarah: When Adam was in college there was a classic rock radio station, and one of their promos was, this may not be your favorite song, but it has a lot of the same notes.

[Laughter]

Sarah: And then they would play a different song. And I feel that way about a lot of books: all right, this was a perfectly serviceable example of this trope. It was, it was there. Yeah. It didn’t blow my socks off, and it was technically proficient, but, you know, I wasn’t, like, super excited or super disappointed. It was there. And that’s, that’s very hard to articulate.

I think what gets tricky is when you are trying to both articulate your opinion and then also decipher why you have that opinion. Do you have this opinion of this book because it was the perfect book for you at this moment and it did exactly what you needed to do and for that you were deeply grateful and appreciative, even though if you look at it objectively there are flaws? Or do you have complete inability to be neutral or objective about this book in any regard because you absolutely adored it or because it just offended you to your core? And either way, those are hard positions to explain, because if you’re, like, if you’re, Shana, if you are so over-the-top in love with a book and it just did everything, sometimes I know that when I’m having that experience, it will start to diminish if I start to try to deploy critical thinking about it, and I just, I just want the sparkly, fluffy gloriousness. I, I do-, I don’t want to think too hard about the technicalities because then, like, okay, well, yeah, there was that one character whose, whose story didn’t get resolved.

And one thing I’ve seen a lot of lately – total aside – I’ve seen a lot of the conflict being, being based on, I have shitty boundaries; maybe I will get some, which I cannot read; it makes me instantly frustrated. Like, I, I have no patience. And also conflict that dissolves instead of resolves. Like, we have a conflict – wait! Um, apparently we don’t anymore. We, we –

[Laughter]

Sarah: – I have decided I don’t care about this problem. Happy Ever After! And sometimes those two things are present or one of them is present and I’m really enjoying it, and I know the minute I start to look, look at it critically the, the bubble will burst and the fantasy will dissolve, and I’ll be like, but I just wanted to enjoy my book!

[Laughter]

Sarah: My brain sometimes does not help. [Laughs]

Amanda: I mean, that’s how I feel about any, like, even if I pick up a book just to read and I don’t plan to review, it’s like, can I turn that critical part of my brain off and just simply read the fucking book, Amanda?

Sarah: No. I cannot.

Amanda: Like, just read it and, like, don’t think too hard and just kind of, like – but no! I think that reviewer part of your brain usually tries to, like, sneak in there, and I’m like, please, please don’t. Plea- – [laughs] –

Sarah: Yep.

Amanda: – like, please stop! Like, be- –

Sarah: It’s a hazard! [Laughs]

Amanda: – before you logged on, I was telling Sarah that I was up till 4 a.m. reading The Duke I Tempted by Scarlett Peckham?

Shana: Ohhh, yeah, I love that.

Amanda: Which I think I read half of it in one sitting. I, I looked on my kindle at, like, midnight and be like, maybe I’ll, like, read something for a minute, and then like four hours later – I’m loving it, but there’s still, like, parts of my brain that are being, like, nit-picky about, like, the pacing, so that, I feel like that’s one thing I, I struggle with in terms of, like, preserving those good book feelings is, like –

Shana: Yeah.

Amanda: – to turn off that, that critical thinking part of my brain.

Shana: Yeah, sometimes I can be very resentful of the decision I made to review a book.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Shana: Like very angry at Past Me, ‘cause it’s not like, you know, Sarah made me do it, Amanda was like, you must review this book! I chose –

Sarah: No, we don’t assign! We let you choose. Yeah.

Shana: Yeah! And so, like, you know, a good example was The Wife in the Attic? That, like, Jane Eyre retelling? I was reading it and I was just like, God, I love this, I love everything about it. It is just, like, ringing through me, and, and then, oh no, I have to pay attention to things that might not be perfect.

Amanda: [Laughs]

Shana: I don’t want to. Like, I’m throwing a temper tantrum while reading the book like, no!

[Laughter]

Shana: I love you! Don’t make me do this! [Laughs]

Sarah: Don’t make me acknowledge any flaws! It will ruin the joy! Yep, I know that feeling.

Amanda: But it’s just like Shana talking to herself in a mirror. [Laughs]

Shana: Yes, it’s just me! [Laughs]

Amanda: Why did you make me do this, Past Shana?!

Sarah: My other problem is that when a book has been claimed for review and I want to read it? I’ll read it, and sometimes I’m like, damn it, I have many words and no place to put them. Or it completely, completely diminishes my motivation and curiosity because I know I’m –

Amanda: Yes!

Sarah: – going to edit the review. So one, one thing that –

Shana: Ohhh!

Sarah: – people who are listening may not know is that every review is edited by me. Like, all reviews go through me before they go to the site, so I, I tend to take it extra personally – [laughs] – when something is wrong, ‘cause I am like, damn it! I messed up on that one! So all the reviews go through me; most of the content that is review or critical goes through me. And I know I’m going to read a review of the book, so I either have to hurry up or just accept that I’m going to be reading a review of the book, and that might also color whether or not I want to read it, which is what a, a good review does. The whole point of a review for the site in most cases is to help a reader make a decision as to whether or not they want to read that book. Whether it’s an investment of time or money or both, we want to help people make informed decisions, especially when, like I said, since romances are about emotions, informed decision sometimes means warning people when something harmful or hurtful might be waiting around the corner.

Amanda: I think – back to what you were saying about reviewers reviewing books that you also read or want to read, I also have that problem. Like –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Amanda: – ‘cause I schedule the things, so, like, I also have to look at these things? Maybe not as closely as you do, but I still see the grade, and I still see some of the comments, especially if I have to pull quotes for –

Sarah: Yes!

Amanda: – you know, social media or, like, Books on Sale or whatever.

Sarah: Yeah.

Amanda: And I’m like, oh, that was on my list. It was, like –

Sarah: Meh!

Amanda: – but, but I just saw what, you know, so-and-so thought about it, and I’m like, do I really need to read it now? It does, like, lessen my – it does get moved down the pile –

Sarah: Yeah.

Amanda: – way, way further once someone reviews a book that, like, I was curious –

Sarah: Yeah.

Amanda: – to read.

Sarah: Good, good news: there are so many books to read!

Amanda: Yeah, there’s no shortage!

Sarah: Bad news: there’s no shortage of books to read! [Laughs]

Amanda: Nope.

Shana: Yeah, I love it! It’s like, thank you for removing that from my list so that I can get back to the two thousand other books that I plan to read this year.

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: And the fanfic that I’m reading, and the interactive fiction game that I’m playing and all the other ways in which I’m interacting – and the videogame that I’m playing. Yeah, all the other stories that I’m, I have in progress, yep.

Shana: Yeah. This is why I can’t read Goodreads reviews for a book that I’m reviewing until after I finish the review. I don’t want to know. And I know that not everybody does that, but, like, I am such a people pleaser that if I know what other people think, like, it’ll color my review, so I have to completely finish my review and all my thoughts and then read the Goodreads reviews. And oftentimes I’m really surprised, and then I sometimes feel validated. Like, everybody loved this book. Why don’t they realize how stupid it is? I can’t wait –

[Laughter]

Shana: I’m going to explain in great detail why it was –

Amanda: I feel like I have the opposite.

[Laughter]

Amanda: I, so I don’t have a problem reading Goodreads reviews, but I feel like books that I love, more people don’t love.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Shana: Oh, that makes me so angry! I’m like, I want to fight you about that! [Laughs]

Sarah: How dare you not love my darling?

Amanda: I’m like, but then I, I, like, sort of thing is like, did I miss the point? Like, is there, did I – am I reading the right book? Why does everyone not like this?

Shana: Obviously you didn’t; they’re obviously wrong.

Amanda: [Laughs] Thank you for your confidence in me, Shana. I appreciate it!

Shana: Completely confident; sorry the whole world is wrong, Amanda, but thank goodness you know. [Laughs]

Amanda: What’s it like to feel so wrong?

[Laughter]

Sarah: Being in complete lack of alignment with other people about a book is really disorienting, isn’t it?

Shana: Yes.

Amanda: Yeah. That’s how I feel about poetry. Like –

[Laughter]

Sarah: Just the whole genre of poetry?

Amanda: The whole genre of poetry! I don’t like poetry –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Amanda: – because most of the time I don’t get it, and it’s like, am I missing –

Sarah: Okay.

Amanda: – something?

Sarah: Okay, so –

Amanda: It just –

Sarah: – I’m going to explain.

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: There once was a man from –

Amanda: – from Nantucket.

Sarah: – Nantucket. Okay, so you’re with me so far!

[Laughter]

Amanda: I just feel like I have a little, like, you know, turkey brain, where it’s like I –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Amanda: – am not understanding, is there supposed to be a metaphor here? Like, in terms of poetry, my limit is like Hop on Pop by Dr. Seuss.

[Laughter]

Amanda: No, yeah, I don’t like things that make me feel like I don’t get it, and sometimes Goodreads reviews can do that. It’s like, that’s not the experience I had at all! Maybe –

Shana: Do not send your poetry to Amanda to review. [Laughs]

Sarah: No.

Amanda: [Laughs] No, I’m not, I’m not the one to review your poetry.

Sarah: Poetry Corner is, is not open at this time, no.

Amanda: My, my biggest review goes like, it doesn’t rhyme. No.

[Laughter]

Amanda: Automatic fail.

Sarah: I want to go back to Tara’s question about the process when I review a book and how I choose to review a book? ‘Cause I also want to say, you know, I do, I do pay reviewers, I do pay them, but I don’t assign books, and I don’t, like, I don’t stand over all the reviewers like, where’s my review? [Clapping] Where is it, where is it? Because reviewing a book is a really hard thing to do, especially –

Amanda: Especially the last year!

Sarah: – especially in the last year and a half, yeah! And in addition, the reviews that our community expects are pretty critical and intensive. It’s not like, this book had words: three stars! Like, even a Lightning Review is going to pull out something that speaks to that reader or speaks to that reviewer, and so reviewing a book right now is a really hard job. Like, it’s hard for me? I don’t have, sometimes, a lot of extra brain energy to not only react to the book but then articulate my reaction to the book, especially when I’m already so stressed and exhausted mentally that sometimes my reaction is a whole lot of, ‘kay, next book. I mean, sometimes all I want is what I think of as potato chip romance, just one after the other. Go, and let’s go, let’s go, yep, mm-hmm, next one, thank you, thank you, and it’s just that, that constant little hit of good feelings. That’s what I’m looking for, and sometimes my reaction to that is, okay, thank you, next book, I need another book, I need another, I need – I mean, I’m not going to stop at one Pringle; that is not the law.

Shana: [Laughs]

Sarah: When I want to review a book, though, what makes me want to review a book is when I have something to say or share about it, and like Amanda said, it’s really hard for me to turn off that critical part of my brain.

And then I have a sort of set of questions that I usually try to answer, either when I am writing or editing my review or when I’m editing someone else’s review. What did I think of the book? Why did I think that? And what does a reader need to know about the book in order to make a decision to read it? Is this review a recommendation? Is this re-, is this review a report? Or is this book review a warning? And the fourth type is “y’all are not going to believe this.”

[Laughter]

Sarah: So is it a recommendation, is it a report, is it a warning, or is it a “y’all, get a snack”?

Amanda: Buckle up!

Sarah: Buckle up, because, listen! Okay, the rails are here; we are no longer on them. [Laughs]

Amanda: We are so far away from these rails.

Sarah: And I love those! Like, I love a review where it’s like, “y’all just need to get a snack and have a seat,” like the Alexis Hall review?

Amanda: Oh, that was, I, like, something obscene ruin or whatever.

Sarah: Right!

Amanda: I saw it and I was like, listen, Alexis put a lot of work into this review, and –

Sarah: That was –

Amanda: – I don’t know if I’m going to read the book, but I’m reading this review. [Laughs]

Shana: Maybe.

Sarah: That’s why people love the F reviews on the site, because a lot of the time it is “y’all are not going to believe this shit” review, and that is super fun!

Amanda: But then people are like, you’re right; I don’t believe it. I need to read it for myself.

Sarah: I mean, every year we sell affiliate copies of The Playboy Sheikh’s Virgin Stable-Girl, and I can tell you why.

Shana: [Laughs]

Sarah: I fucking love that book. I love that review, and I love that book, and I wrote that review! [Laughs] And that is one hundred percent a “y’all need to have a seat and listen to this story, ‘cause oh my God.” And there’s always a romance that you’ve read where you could just recap it and be like, and then she stabs herself in her appendix scar with a box cutter and bleeds all over the floor! That’s a Diana Palmer by the way, as recapped by Heather Osborne, a story I have heard multiple times and still laugh my, laugh my eyeballs silly, like, when I read that. I mean, you know what I mean, right, Shana? Like, there’s always a book where like, yep, yep, mm-hmm!

Amanda: Do, do either of you have, like, one of those go-to, like, weird, like, romances where it’s like, you remember it, and when you tell someone, someone about it, that is the first thing that you mention. Like, for me it’s like the Kresley Cole Immortals after Dark books, especially ones with demons?

Sarah: Oh, and the horns?

Amanda: Be-, because I love mentioning that demons can’t ejaculate until they find their soulmate.

Sarah: [Gasp-laughs]

Amanda: So they can have sex with their partners –

Sarah: [Gasp-laughs again]

Amanda: – but there’s this weird seal over –

Shana: [Laughs]

Amanda: – over their penises, and that’s the only way they know they’ve found their mate –

Sarah: [Laugh-sniffles]

Amanda: – is if, you know, Mount Vesuvius erupts, essentially.

Sarah: You’ve just got to up the ante.

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: Sometimes, like for the Carpathians, their hearts would start to beat, and they would see in color? And sometimes you just, you’re able to ejaculate.

Amanda: Can you imagine –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Amanda: Can you imagine you get dicked so hard, or you have such amazing sex that you start seeing in other colors?

Shana: Doesn’t it happen to everyone? [Laughs]

Amanda: Sorry, I’m, I’ve missed that boat, Shana. I’ll report back if –

[Laughter]

Amanda: – if I start seeing in neon.

Sarah: I cannot, oh gosh, I cannot breathe!

[Laughter]

Sarah: And the funny thing – I’m going to wipe my eyes; oh my gosh.

[Laughter]

Sarah: The funny thing about that is, when you start talking about these demons who can’t ejaculate, right?

Shana: As you do.

Sarah: [Laughs] You either have people who are like, oh yeah, I totally read that; yep, mm-hmm! Absolutely, they couldn’t come, and the other people are going to be like, what?! Like –

Amanda: Well, it’s like the first out of the gate is like, listen –

Sarah: Listen –

Amanda: – I want to recommend these books to you –

Sarah: But we need to clear this hurdle.

Amanda: – but you need to know something first.

Sarah: Yup!

Amanda: And how you feel about what I’m about to say – [laughs] – is going to determine whether or not these books are for you.

Sarah: I feel the same way about some of the older historicals that have a great deal of nostalgia affection on my part? So if I explain to you that in a particular historical there is an arranged marriage and the heroine has deliberately made herself as unattractive a prospect as possible so the hero would not pick her, but then he does pick her because he wants to drop her in the country and go back to boning his mistress in London, as you do, and so he has to use cream to his ease his way, and he thinks he’s being so thoughtful to use this cream, and, like, if I say this to somebody who is just beginning to enter the genre, they’re going to be like, wh-, what? Wh-what? And if I speak to somebody who has read some older historicals, they’re going to be like, oh yeah, that’s nothing! Let me tell you about that time they had sex in a dirty, cold pond on horseback! [Laughs]

Amanda: Let me tell you about all the different ways pearls are used!

[Laughter]

Amanda: We have had, I will say, we have had so many HaBOs –

Sarah: About –

Amanda: – where there is a pearl scene, and we get so many, like, recommendations in the comments.

Shana: I know! ‘Cause people are like, oh, it could be this, but it could be –

Amanda: It could – and, like, I never knew that –

Shana: There’s seven books with this scene!

[Laughter]

Amanda: There’s like, there are certainly trends in romance, and for a while it was pearls. Like, seriously – [laughs] –

Sarah: Pearls and love grottos, baby, pearls and love grottos. [Laughs]

Shana: Well, that’s why I loved that, that Scottish historical, the heart, My Heart’s in the Highlands? Because it was all of the tropes from the, like, ‘90s, but, like, it was as though – I mean, I don’t know what happened; it was as though, like, the author was in this great time travel machine her, of her own!

[Laughter]

Shana: And, but I’ve never read that in – [laughs] – in one book. It is amazing and, like, nothing made any sense, there was no attempt for it to make sense, and –

Amanda: Like, we deserve this too!

Shana: [Laughs] We do!

Amanda: [Laughs]

Shana: There’s this point where the couple, like, they set the castle on fire and then have sex in the bedroom while the bed-, the literal room they’re in is burning around, and then, like, you know, leap out the window. I’m like, what is happening? Why is it happening? I –

Amanda: But does one of them start seeing in color afterwards?

Shana: [Laughs] You’re, you’re right! I don’t know!

Amanda: [Laughs] I feel like I would after that.

Shana: I was seeing in colors reading it!

[Laughter]

Sarah: Is it like how scientists have, have tried to calibrate how bugs and birds see flowers and it’s like this gorgeous, infrared, Technicolor – like, do you get infrared vision?

[Laughter]

Sarah: Is this a lesbian secret you’re not telling us?

Shana: It definitely is. Everyone, I, I suggest sex with women, because –

[Laughter]

Sarah: You see in infrared!

Amanda: You get superpowers!

Shana: – you’ll see like a frog.

[Laughter]

Sarah: Speaking of, I just want to show you guys, I love the site Autostraddle? They are an independent, queer media site, and so I joined their little A+ membership, and I got some stickers, including one that says, Read a Fucking Book, which, you know, I’m in favor of.

Amanda: Yeah!

Sarah: There’s one that says, Gal Pal. And then there’s this one, which is my favorite.

[Laughter]

Amanda and Shana: Scissors!

Amanda: One of my favorite, like, enamel pin makers does, like, queer weapons? So there’s, like, Battleaxe Bisexual –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Amanda: – and it has, like, this battleaxe with, like, bisexual colors? I’m trying to –

Shana: Oh my God, Amanda, I’ve seen these in real life!

Amanda: You’ve seen them?

Shana: I was at Disneyland; I was waiting in line –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Shana: – to go on the Tower of Terror ride, and –

Sarah: Not where I expected this story to take place, but okay!

[Laughter]

Shana: – the queers in front of me had, like, that pin on! And I of course have no problem talking to complete strangers –

Amanda: No! Why would you?

Shana: – so I was like, hello! Where did that pin come from? And then once you start it’s you for the next forty-five minutes with your new friends in line talking about the Etsy shop where that pin came from, and also their other pins and how they’re amazing.

Amanda: Yes!

Shana: – reminding me, because I took a picture of them so I could find them, and now I can!

Amanda: I’ll post – yeah, they have, like, Sword Lesbian –

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Amanda: – and one was like three, like three weapons, and it’s Poly Armory.

Shana: [Laughs]

Sarah: When you guys are trying to decide whether to read a book and you are looking at reviews, what do you look for in a review, and do you try to do that in the reviews that you write?

Amanda: That’s a tough question.

Shana: Hmm. That is!

Sarah: So in a review, I look for the same things in a book that I’m trying to decide whether to read or in a review that I’m trying to write or in a review that I’m trying to edit. The first thing is scissoring; that’s the first think I’m going to look for –

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: – preferably on a sticker.

Amanda: You control-F –

Sarah: Yep.

Amanda: – scissor.

Sarah: Scissor, yep. What did the reviewer think of the book? Can I walk away from the review and say, all right, this is what that reviewer thought; why did they feel that way? What did you think of the book, and why did you feel that way? All right, well, I really love this book because I was in the absolute worst place, and this book gave me all the happy feels. I cannot be objective about it; it made me feel good. Your mileage may vary. Good to know!

What does a reader –

[Dogs barking]

Sarah: Up!

Amanda: Oop!

Sarah: FedEx is here. Duh-duh-duh!

[Laughter]

Sarah: What does a reader who hasn’t read the book need to know? And that’s why I like spoiler tags: like, you can elect not to read the spoilers and the narrative of the review should work, but if you need that extra information we want to put it there. The biggest thing for me when I’m editing is does the grade match the text? If you look at the grade and then you read the text, do those things match up? And like I said, I don’t take a lot of things very seriously, but I take very seriously the importance of making recommendations to people, because people are going to be entrusting their emotions into this book. I want to be a trustworthy source of whether or not you can trust your emotions. I just said the word trust like nine times, so it doesn’t mean anything anymore, but I want people to, I want readers to have the experience that they’re looking for in a book with the romance, and I want to make sure that they know that this is, this is likely to provide that, and this is likely to not provide that. Like, I’m not recommending friends-to-lovers to Amanda unless the friends-to-lovers part is like the last quarter and they spend the first three-quarters trying to kill each other. Then, maybe.

Amanda: Yeah, yeah.

Sarah: May-, maybe.

[Laughter]

Sarah: Shana, what about you? What are you looking for when you read a review of a book?

Shana: You know, I think I’m looking for, is this person aware of their own biases?

Sarah: Oh, that’s a good one, yeah!

Shana: Like, how self-reflective are they? Because for me, when I review, I’m always thinking about my own position in the world and, like, how does that impact how I’m responding to this book? And I feel a lot of responsibility to what I imagine are all of my, like, book siblings out there who, like, share some, like, slice of similarity with me, and they want to know, like, say that you’re a fat person; is there going to be fat-shaming in this book that, like, might go over the head of a thin reviewer, but, like, I will feel like a knife in my gut?

Sarah: Yeah.

Shana: Like, and I will tell you that, you know? So that’s what I look for in reviews, so I really love the reviews where, even if it’s just like, I know half the reason I love this book is ‘cause I miss traveling during the pandemic, and it made me feel like I was in this other country. Like, I want to know, like, who you are and, like, why that you love this book, and so any review that, either positive or negative, it doesn’t explain that, I do not trust. Because I don’t know if we are similar enough or if you understand, like, me and who I am as a reader that you will read the book and understand it the way that I will. Which is why Amanda is always right and the Goodreads reviewers are always wrong.

[Laughter]

Amanda: There’s nothing I love hearing more than I’m right, I will say. [Laughs]

The reviews that I read, first of all, I will pretty much only trust a majority of reviews from people that I know and trust, ‘cause Goodreads can be a cesspool sometimes.

Sarah: What?!

Shana: [Laughs]

Amanda: Yeah. So –

Sarah: Wait, the unmoderated, corporate-owned arm of a retailer – ?

Amanda: Yes. [Laughs]

Sarah: With, with a, with a, a number of –

Shana: I know!

Sarah: – different schemes for extortion and a number of different ways to game the ratings system? That’s not a general system you trust? Wooow!

Shana: What’s the world coming to?

Amanda: No!

Sarah: [Snorts]

Amanda: I know. You can’t even trust – [laughs] – Goodreads. So I put a lot of weight into books that are recommended to me by my fellow, you know, book-reading friends or not recommended to me by my fellow book-reading friends. Like, you know, I work with a bookseller named Audrey who I have said is the best bookseller I have ever met in my entire life. She is a tornado of a woman, that’s for sure. But if she tells me, Amanda, I read that book at the library and it’s garbage and you would hate it, like, say no more. Audrey doesn’t have to tell me why. I trust Audrey, and Audrey, like, knows me and knows what I like to read. So that’s, like, the first kind of barrier of entry is, like, do I know you and do you know me in terms of –

Sarah: Do you trust that source, right.

Amanda: Yeah, do I trust that source? And that’s a very small pool of people. Most of the, the reviewers here – there’s not really an exception, but I just know that some of us read different things, so what some person loves isn’t necessarily going to be for me.

Sarah: Oh yeah. I have email that says, Sarah, I love everything you hate. Keep up the good work!

[Laughter]

Amanda: And it’s like, I – maybe this is like the, the cynical part of me, but I, no book is perfect, right? So I’m automatically suspicious if a book has an A grade. I feel like a Squee grade is different than an A grade. A Squee grade –

Sarah: No, it’s definitely different! You’re right!

Amanda: Yeah, it’s like, I loved this book. It, you know, for me it was just a joyful experience. It may not be perfect, but, like, it made me feel so good.

Sarah: Yeah. Squee is a signal – objectivity is not here. There is no –

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: – objective criticism here. This is just rainbow cannon: take cover; here it comes.

Amanda: Yeah. But for, for a perfect grade, no matter, like, what grading system a site is using, I’m automatically I guess, like, on the defensive. I was like, there’s no way –

[Laughter]

Amanda: – there can’t – there’s just no way – [laughs] – this book is without flaws! So I feel like I’m more trusting of, like, a B+ or an A- than I am of an A grade? You know, no piece of media will be for everyone, but I think it’s helpful to inform people about whether that piece of media will be for them or not.

Shana: That’s definitely, like, similar to the questions I ask myself when I’m writing the review is like, who will like this? Because I always think someone will, even if I hated it.

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: If, if two things are, are generally true, one, that romance is a space in which we are entrusting our emotions and our empathy as readers, and the larger context of what is happening around romance is important, then any breakdown in that trust is important, and it is, it is essential, I think, when you’re dealing with – especially right now when you’re dealing with, with people who really need the solace of, of a happy story – the context in which that story is taking place is very important, and what happens in that story is important.

Shana, any last comments about reviews or a book you want to tell us about that you absolutely squeed over?

Shana: Well, I want to say my last thoughts are that I looked at my notes for one of my last reviews in preparation for this interview, because when I do reviews I, like, take notes throughout the whole thing, which is basically just like if I were texting Sarah, like, while reading it –

Amanda: [Laughs]

Shana: – which I won’t do because Sarah has a life?

[Laughter]

Shana: Like, that’s what my notes are.

Sarah: I almost spit water all over my microphone.

[Laughter]

Shana: And –

Sarah: Sarah does not have a life! What are you talking about? [Laughs]

Shana: – even though most of my notes do not make it into the review, I just want to say they’re really hilarious to me.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Amanda: Shana’s like, I’m hilarious!

Shana: Rereading them is like, that hero is an incel. Like, why is there so much, like, dick-waving happening in the book? Like, everything is bullshit. Like, there’s no context in my notes; it’s just like, this was bullshit! I’m like, I wonder what was happening then, when I wrote that down? I don’t know! So I highly recommend doing that if you are going to write reviews, because it will entertain you later when you go back and look at your notes.

Amanda: [Laughs] You, like, look at your highlights; you’re like, what is this?

Shana: [Laughs]

Sarah: That’s why there’s a, a number of conversational reviews that happen on the site, which I love, because reading someone else’s conversation about a book they’ve both read can be extremely illuminating! It’s not quite the same tone and voice as someone reviewing knowing that that reviewer is essentially talking to you, the reader; you’re actually reading the transcript of what people are saying to each other. But I like both types because y’all are hilarious!

[Laughter]

Sarah: Amanda, what about you? Any last thoughts on reviews or books you want to say, talk about?

Amanda: Reviewing is hard! Like – [laughs] –

Sarah: Ah, it’s so hard.

Amanda: I, like, I feel like some people think you just type up a little summary and thumbs up or thumbs down and you’re good to go. It is tough, and Sarah is a, is a fair editor but a tough editor, and she makes –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Amanda: Like, you’ll say something; she’s like, okay, but why? Like, why do you feel this way? I’m like, Sarah, I don’t want, I don’t want to analyze my own feelings! So reviewing is hard, and –

Sarah: It is.

Amanda: – you know, kudos to all of our reviewers, and anyone thinking that just some average joe can do this, you’re wrong. It’s, it, it takes practice and work and the willingness to be critical and look at your own writing, and sometimes I don’t want to look at my own writing.

[Laughter]

Amanda: It’s like, I don’t like hearing my own voice: I don’t like reading my own writing. [Laughs]

And in terms of books, as I mentioned before, I stayed up till 4 a.m. reading The Duke I Tempted by Scarlett Peckham. I abused my power and asked when the new Scarlett Peckham will be out. I, like, put out some feelers. Nobody knows, so.

Sarah: Oh.

Amanda: I know. It’s okay! I hope, I hope Scarlett’s doing great, but so, I’m just going through the backlist and, and enjoying it for now.

Sarah: Yay!

Amanda: Yay!

Sarah: Thank you for doing this, y’all, and thank you for all of your reviews. I know it’s hard. I know it is hard.

[music]

Sarah: And that brings us to the end of this week’s episode. Thank you to Amanda and Shana for hanging out with me and talking about reviewing. Thank you to Tara and Leslee for the questions. I will have links to everything we talked about in the show notes, including some of the reviews that we mentioned at smartbitchestrashybooks.com/podcast.

As you may have heard me mention in last week’s episode, coming up on October 15th I am starting a new podcast project. It is called the Sweet Dreams Romance Recap Project, because I don’t create things with short titles. Basically, I’m going to recap the first twenty Sweet Dreams romances, which are vintage YA paperbacks you might have seen. They started being published in the early ‘80s. I’m going to be starting with PS I Love You by Barbara Conklin, which is Sweet Dreams #1, and some folks it is – whoo! – a book that really got them into romance. We’re going to look at the cover copy, the cover photography, the context, the story, and we’re going to talk about the writers and take a look back at romance that was the gateway for so many readers.

If you were into Sweet Dreams or you remember some of these, I would love to hear from you? You can email me at [email protected] and put “Sweet Dreams” in the subject line. I would really love to hear which is your favorite, and I’ll see you on the 15th with our first Sweet Dreams recap.

This podcast is also brought to you by Headspace. If you have tried meditation before and felt like it didn’t work or maybe like you were doing it wrong, have a look at Headspace, especially if mental health is part of your self-care plan this year. Headspace is your daily dose of mindfulness in the form of guided meditations in an easy-to-use app. Headspace is one of the only meditation apps advancing the field of mindfulness and meditation through clinically validated research, so whatever the occasion, Headspace really can help you feel better! Overwhelmed? Headspace has thirty-minute SOS meditations for you. Need some help falling asleep? Headspace has wind-down meditations that Amanda and their members swear by. And for parents, Headspace has morning meditations you can do with your kids! Headspace’s approach to mindfulness can reduce stress, improve sleep, boost focus, and increase your overall sense of wellbeing. Since I started using Headspace, my day goes a little easier when I start with meditation, and I’ve meditated nearly every morning. I feel pretty great! I also love the focus music collection in the Headspace app. I love the variety, and I love the curated playlists. Headspace is backed by twenty-five published studies on its benefits, six hundred thousand five-star reviews, and over sixty million downloads. Headspace makes it easy for you to build a life-changing meditation practice with mindfulness that works for you on your schedule, anytime, anywhere. You deserve to feel happier, and Headspace is meditation made simple. Go to headspace.com/SARAH; that’s headspace.com/SARAH for a free one-month trial with access to Headspace’s full library of meditations for every situation. This is the best deal offered right now. Head to headspace.com/SARAH today.

As always, I end each episode with a truly terrible joke, and this week is no exception, because why would I abandon you like that after getting you hooked on the very worst of humor? It is, it would be really mean. It is an unkind thing for me to do, so you ready for joke time? Joke time! All right! You ready? [Clears throat] Serious podcaster voice:

How did Vikings communicate across long distances?

Give up? How did Vikings communicate across long distance?

They used Norse code.

[Laughs] Norse code! Thank you very much to u/SleepNowMyThrowaway on Reddit for that fabulous joke.

If you would like to send me a joke or you would just like to get in touch with me or you just like to tell me things, this is great! Please do! You can email me at [email protected] or [email protected], whichever one sticks in your ears or your mind more. I love to hear from you; it’s lovely when you send me email.

On behalf of everyone here, we wish you the very best of reading. Have a fabulous weekend, and we will see you back here next week!

Smart Podcast, Trashy Books is part of the Frolic Podcast Network. You can find more outstanding podcasts to subscribe to at frolic.media/podcasts.

[cool music]