405. Behind the Scenes in Publicity, Plus Reading Recs with Estelle Hallick from Forever

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Sarah Wendell: Hello there. Welcome to episode number 405 of Smart Podcast, Trashy Books. I’m Sarah Wendell, and with me today is Estelle Hallick. Estelle is a publicist for Forever, which is part of Hachette, and I know that you guys really like it when I do behind-the-scenes interviews with the people who help make the books that we love happen. So if you’re curious about being a publicist and how publicity is working during the quarantimes, this interview will make you very happy. We talk about all the things, I ask a lot of questions, and we have reading recommendations.

And I do want to let you know, we do talk about the Hachette walkout, which happened in early March and feels like five years ago. We don’t go much into the specifics of the memoir that lead to the walkout, but we look at what happened internally and what happened after and how acting together has made a big difference, which seems rather thematic for these times.

I want to send a special hello. Hello to April and her friend at the library who are currently scanning every book in the children’s section and each have one ear phone in to listen to the show. Hello, ladies!

And to the most awesome librarian at the Florence County public library in South Carolina whose Facebook page is not here for anyone’s crap, and I will have a link because it’s a really great library Facebook page. They are not here for any bullcrap misinformation.

Now, I have a lot of things to tell you about, but first and foremost, I want to give out some compliments. Yay! I love this part; it’s so much fun!

To Jessie M.: Your personal coat of arms includes the perfect pair of pajamas, the warmest quilt, excellent depictions of snacks, and everything great, because you too are everything great.

And if you would like a compliment of your very own or you would like to support this here show, have a look at patreon.com/SmartBitches, and a very special hello and thank-you to our Patreon community.

Now, I am part of a network of podcasts, and if you are looking for another show to enjoy, I would like to tell you about this one:

1. Penelope: Hi. I’m L. Penelope, and I’m an author of epic fantasy and paranormal romance. My podcast My Imaginary Friends is part of the Frolic Podcast Network. On the show, I give you, dear listener, a weekly look behind the scenes of my life writing and publishing books. I talk about creativity, inspiration, writing routines, This Week’s Best Thing, and more! One reviewer said it’s “like sitting down with a writer-friend to have coffee and discuss all the writerly things.” So if you’re an established or an aspiring writer or a reader who always wanted a peek into an author’s life, please check it out! New episodes post on Mondays, and you can find me at myimaginaryfriendsshow.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

Sarah: Thank you, L. Penelope! And of course I will have links to where you can subscribe, or you can just search My Imaginary Friends with L. Penelope on your favorite podcatcher, and I think podcatcher might be my favorite word this year. It’s really fun to say. [Laughs] I’m so easily amused by things, right?

This episode is brought to you by Ritual, a daily multivitamin obsessively researched for women. Ritual is – get ready – vegan-friendly, sugar-free, non-GMO, gluten-free, and allergen-free, and all of the sources for the nine nutrients inside are provided for you to read and research on your own. Ritual is designed to be an easy way to build a daily multivitamin – wait for it – ritual! Ha! A subscription box of vitamins will arrive on your doorstep, and your next bottle will arrive just as you finish the last one. It’s super easy and super effective, and it’s only a dollar a day to have your daily multivitamin delivered to your house! Ritual is offering you, as a Smart Podcast, Trashy Books listener, ten percent off your first three months. You can fill in the gaps with Essential for Women by visiting ritual.com/SARAH – that’s S-A-R-A-H – to start your ritual today. That’s ten percent off your first three months at ritual.com/SARAH.

This episode is also brought to you by Best Fiends. If you are looking for a fun way to pass time, which we have some of, and you’d like to engage your brain and enjoy a fun and really adorable story, your answer is Best Fiends! Best Fiends is a casual game that anyone can play, though it is made for adults. Each level is part of a larger story. Each level involves a puzzle to solve, and as you advance to the next one, you both level up the difficulty and reveal more of the story. There are super adorable creatures that you’re going to help, there are bugs, there are swiping puzzles, characters talking to me. It’s really fun, and it’s a really engaging way to pass time. You can engage your brain with fun puzzles and collect tons of cute characters. With over a hundred million downloads, trust me, this five-star-rated mobile puzzle game is a must-play. Download Best Fiends free in the Apple Store or Google Play. That’s Friends without the R: Best Fiends.

And now, on with this episode with Estelle Hallick talking publicity and book recommendations.

[music]

Estelle Hallick: My name is Estelle Hallick, and I am the publicity and marketing manager at Forever.

Sarah: Now, Forever is part of Hachette, right?

Estelle: It is part of Hachette! And you said it right!

Sarah: I can’t tell you how proud I am that I got that right, because not only does everyone in romance publishing switch places and switch houses when somebody somewhere rings a bell, but I lose track of which imprints belong to which houses, and I have made some incredibly stupid mistakes. [Laughs] I’m really glad I got that right!

Estelle: It happens all the time. It’s really hard to keep track. I feel like we need a flow chart or something to just inform everybody maybe every few months or so where we are and who we are. [Laughs]

Sarah: And also, you know, the, there, the, houses merge? So it’s like, wait, are you this one or this one, or are you both?

Estelle: Right. And I think it’s also confusing because – [zoom] – you might be hearing New York behind me; I’m not sure – because –

Sarah: Hello, New York!

Estelle: Hello, New York! – because we’re part of Grand Central, and sometimes they also publish some, some romance, and our books are, sometimes complement each other, and I think that could be a little bit confusing for people too.

Sarah: Well, I didn’t actually realize that Grand Central and Forever were separate things. I thought that they were interchangeable names that you used based on the genre, so hey! I learned a thing today!

Estelle: [Laughs] Look at that! Yay!

Sarah: How did you get into romance publicity, and what do, what do you do?

Estelle: I never really set out to be a publicist of romance novels? I always thought I wanted to work in editorial, way, way back when I was a baby Estelle, and that ended up not really working out? I, I just feel like I, I’ve been thinking about this a lot, because I’ve been doing some, like, informational interviews with people, and then you’re all of a sudden thinking back to all the things you did before and how you ended up where you are now?

Sarah: How did I get here?

Estelle: Right!

Sarah: This is not beautiful wife! What is happening? Yeah. I, I know, yeah, absolutely.

Estelle: But I, you know, was a writing major, and I loved books, and I always thought I wanted to do something with books, but it just didn’t work out, like, finding a job in editorial. I worked in, at a recruitment firm for six years, a really long time. I thought I would get in, jump into publishing after that, because that was what they specialized in, but it was, like, the recession, I wasn’t sure what I wanted to do anymore, and then I actually got into book blogging, and I did that starting in 2011? And it, like, opened up a whole new world to me? Like, I had a community of people; I was reading books and reviewing them; I was meeting authors, and I was helping them promo their books; and then sort of a light bulb went off, and I’m like, hey, maybe I can actually get paid to do this? I –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Estelle: Not well; I won’t get paid well, but, like, maybe I can still get paid. [Laughs] So I, I ended up, like, one of the bloggers I was friends with was just leaving an internship with a lit agency. She knew that I was, like, hoping to move into a new kind of job, so she asked me if I wanted to take that over, so I got that position, which was also weird, because the person who hired me ended up, like, quitting? So then these two people who had no idea who I was, like, came to New York and met with me, and they were like, oh, this is actually going to do, like, quite fine. So I started doing a little, like, blog tours and a little bit of PR for – [laughs] – for romance authors, and I did that for a while, and then finally I felt like with the blog and with the internship that – and I was still, you know, working full time – I was like, it’s, it might be time to just apply for something real? So I did, and I thought I’d work in children’s books. I loved YA; I loved reading Young Adult. I thought that was what I wanted to do. I never, I don’t even, at that point I didn’t even really think about working in romance. And I did not work in YA; my first job in publicity, I worked at a university press where I worked on books that were really tough, and every day I was like, I am just not smart enough for this! But then –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Estelle: – it was, it was, it was really crazy. I think it was so out of my comfort zone that I’m actually grateful that that was my first job, like, truly in publishing. I, I learned so much, and I think it’s really – I don’t know; it was just, like, fascinating people, people who had been, you know, studying the sub-, like, the subjects they were writing on for years and years and years and were experts, and then me as a baby publicist having to learn the best questions to ask them so that I can pitch the book, even if I had no idea what they were really talking about. So it was really interesting, and I still was, like, blogging, and I was still reading YA and oh, like, reading some romance. Romance was always, like, my palate cleanser at that point.

Sarah: I was just going to ask that! What, what were –

Estelle: Yeah.

Sarah: – what were you reading? Was romance something that you read at all at that point? Like, what, what were you book blogging about?

Estelle: It’s so funny, ‘cause my mom was a huge romance reader, and I used to steal her books all the time, and then I really went through a period where I just stopped reading a lot? I think that was college, because you’re just, you know – [laughs] – reading everything you have to, you’re assigned for class, and then I got into reading YA just when it started coming into the scene again? I guess it really started to blow up, and I was reading a lot of books about high school, and I’m like, I, and I don’t know, I just really like them, but there was always a romance element, and then honestly, like, once I was working, once I was blogging and I was getting pitched books, a very smart publicist also pitched me about reading romance, and I’m like, huh. I hadn’t thought about reading romance in a really long time, and then I started, so I started, like, coming back to romance reading, like Susan Mallery, which, you know, there were like a million books in the Fool’s Gold series to read, so I was, like, keeping up with those, and it just was like a ni-, after reading so much YA, it was nice to, like, read four YA books and then read a romance novel, and I sort of started getting back into it that way. So I will thank book blogging for getting me back into romance!

Sarah: Yeah, I’ve heard that’s a thing that happens!

Estelle: Yeah!

Sarah: I think it also happened to me. [Laughs]

Estelle: Really?

Sarah: Well, I started Smart Bitches fifteen years ago because I, I, I read a lot of romance, and I didn’t have a place to talk about it, and book blogging brought me even more into the genre. Like, when I started Smart Bitches I had a very limited understanding of the genre. I read, like, two types, and then all of a sudden – it was actually, I don’t know if I’ve ever told you this, it was Erin Galloway who was the first publicist to ever contact me as a, as a blogger?

Estelle: That’s so funny. No, I didn’t know that.

Sarah: Back when she was at Dorchester! She was at Dorchester! Remember Dorchester?

Estelle: Oh my God, I – yes, yes!

Sarah: They sank to the bottom of the ocean. But she, she contacted me and was like, do you want to be on our list? And I was like, list of what?

[Laughter]

Sarah: And she, like, we’ll send you books! And I’m like, okay? So then I got galleys, and they were, like, wrapped in almost construction paper. They were a larger format, they were heavier paper, and they had, like, a plain paper cover with just the title and author, and I was like, oh my God, they’re, they’re, like, premature! They’re –

Estelle: [Laughs]

Sarah: – they’re not even, they’re not even books yet! And then I, like, read one, and I emailed her; I’m like, do you want this back? And she’s like, no! Do not send –

Estelle: Oh my God.

Sarah: – do not, no, you may not send that back.

Estelle: That is so cute!

Sarah: And she was – I know, I was so clueless. I had no knowledge about anything, and all of a sudden I started reading more genres, and the more I read, the more I could see, oh, this is not, this part of romance is like this part of romance, and the more I read, the more I wanted to read. So, yeah, book blogging is dangerous. It’s a dangerous hobby.

Estelle: Oh my God, it is dangerous. It’s also very expensive. [Laughs]

Sarah: Oh! You do not say. [Laughs]

Estelle: Mm-hmm! Yeah.

Sarah: So you ended up doing romance publicity.

Estelle: I did!

Sarah: What are the differences that you’ve noticed between romance publicity and academic publicity?

Estelle: Well, everyone wants to cover academic publicity, because all of, every, what they’re writing is what’s newsworthy, and I think that was, like, something I didn’t even think about when I started working at the university press, and then going – I did work on kids in between that, and then worked, and then started in romance, and then realizing just how, like, media was not very friendly to romance, which was something, like, I knew? And I knew that it was, this was going to be more of a marketing job and a job where I was talking more to the, directly to the consumer, but it’s been kind of nice. I’ve been at Forever for three years now, and I think, you know, media has really started to come back to romance –

Sarah: Oh yes.

Estelle: – which is nice, because then I kind of get the thrill back that I had when I was working on the university press and, you know, getting, like, something in the New York Times or whatever. Like, I miss that thrill and I miss that high?

Sarah: Yeah!

Estelle: So it, it’s nice that it comes, it’s coming back in this job where I never thought that maybe we, I would ever feel that way again, but I was actually okay with that too. [Laughs]

Sarah: So when you were at an academic press, your house would publish something that was incredibly newsworthy and incredibly relevant, and major news outlets, who want to be seen as equally informed and relevant, would basically fall all over themselves to cover the things that you were producing.

Estelle: Basically, yeah. That was it.

Sarah: Romance isn’t like that!

Estelle: No, it isn’t like that. It’s –

Sarah: Super annoying! [Laughs]

Estelle: It’s, it is annoying, but I actually think, like, the way that my brain works, because I started at the university press and knowing that there is a little hook in there if you just, like – even, I mean, I never worked on, I was newish, so I never really worked on our main titles? But even for a small thing, I could find a good pitch, right? And I think that helps me now when –

Sarah: Oh!

Estelle: – it doesn’t seem like there might be something there, but I think I think about it a little too much, but I’m not, that is also just an Estelle thing, but I don’t know. I think it, it helps, especially because I didn’t understand all of the books that I was working on at the university press. Like, it wasn’t something that I was comfortable, like – I mean, I was comfortable going to media and pitching them, but I wouldn’t say, like, I could sit and have, like, an hour conversation with the author about it. Like, that would be really hard for me?

Sarah: Right.

Estelle: And here it’s a little bit different, because, I mean, romance is, like, emotion and all of, all of these other things, but then sometimes there is a hook there, and I, I still try to look for it. Even when media is more friendly to it, I think even just looking for the hook for a marketing campaign or just something extra that the author can do, like, there’s different ways to sort of, like, shift the way you’re presenting a book, right?

Sarah: Yeah! So that’s really interesting. So your, so your skill set, moving from academia through children’s into romance, is basically distillation and, and identifying the various precise elements that are going to create interest from either the press or the consumer or both in the book, so you can distill what the absolute essence of a book is that makes it relevant or that, how someone could cover it other than saying – ‘cause it’s, as, as you know, it’s very hard to be like, and here’s a book.

Estelle: I know. It is!

Sarah: Here’s a book is not going to work. Here’s a book and why is what works, so the why is the hook, and you can, you can identify that better and better with having worked in different genres. Oh, that’s so interesting!

Estelle: Yeah, I definitely feel that, especially when I talk to other publicists or just even talking to people who are new out of college and what they want to do, it’s like, I always try to say, okay, you might not be working in a, in a company with books that you are going to go to the bookstore to pick out, but that doesn’t mean you can’t be good at your job, and it doesn’t mean it can’t help you along the way. And I am just, like, so grateful to that university press job, like, every single day.

Sarah: Wow, that is really cool! Because, like, like, like you said, when you were, when you’re looking back at how did I get here? You can sort of see the through line of the skill set that you’ve built on, even if you didn’t recognize that at the time.

Estelle: Exactly. Exactly. Like, I never thought, I didn’t know what would happen. It’s just, like, you want to get your foot in the door, right? That’s what everyone says about publishing, and I thought by, you know, working at the press, that would help, and I –

Sarah: Yeah!

Estelle: – always dreamed, like, I would go to kids and, like, work in kids forever after that, which is funny – ha-ha, Forever – and then that –

[Laughter]

Estelle: And then that’s, like, not, that’s not even close to what happened, and I’m, I’m fine with that. I’m just, I’m such a planner, and, but I think I’ve learned that it’s okay not to be, and sometimes you just have to, like, try the thing, and if you’re not happy for whatever reason, you just need to, like, move on to the next and see how you can make yourself happy in the next position, you know?

Sarah: Right! Absolutely! I’m presuming here that when you’re working with romance, you’re working with a slightly higher volume in terms of number of books in a year than in an academic press?

Estelle: Yeah, it’s true. Well, what –

Sarah: Got a lot more books to find the hooks for.

Estelle: Yeah! It’s true! Ugh! It’s, this is definitely the highest volume of books I’ve ever worked on at one time – [laughs] – and that’s really tough. I, it’s, you know –

Sarah: And there’s new ones every week!

Estelle: I, I know! I know!

Sarah: [Laughs]

Estelle: It’s like you, I think you just have to prioritize them in different ways which is – [sighs] – it’s, that’s also hard. It, ‘cause, you know, it, the book is the author’s baby, but sometimes it also feels like my own? [Laughs] And you may –

Sarah: Oh yeah, because I’ve talked to you about books that you’re really into, and it’s, it’s, I, I know this feeling!

Estelle: Yeah! It’s, you want to give equal attention to everything, but I actually think that’s sort of the benefit of having authors who are writing maybe three books a year, which –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Estelle: – you know, God bless them for doing that, but also it gives me a different opportunity each time? It’s like, okay, out of the three, which one is your, is the one that has your heart this year? And then kind of focusing on, on that one, and then figuring out other things to do with the other two. So I think it’s just –

Sarah: Yeah.

Estelle: – again, it’s like shifting the way that publicity would work at, like, a regular press, and then also, because I do have the marketing title too, I think that helps. You know, some titles are going to be more marketing heavy and more about, like, word of mouth and getting it to a reader, whereas maybe they won’t be a media-friendly book. [Sighs] It’s, it’s, really, it’s tough. It’s tough. I think the biggest problem that I have, if this was a job interview – [laughs] – I think that I just want, I, it’s hard to turn it off. I think, you know, publicity and marketing, you could be doing it all day! You could just be –

Sarah: Mm-hmm!

Estelle: – twenty-four hours and, like, but you have to know when to stop, and I am not always good at that.

Sarah: It must be also difficult to separate your leisure reading from your work reading.

Estelle: Yes, that’s true. I mean, that was the one benefit of working at an academic press, right? It was like –

Sarah: Right, yeah!

Estelle: – I was really just, like, reading the intro of a book and then maybe going through the chapters to look at something that was interesting for an excerpt, but I was never really reading the book in entirety?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Estelle: And here – [laughs] – it’s funny, because I do want to read the books all the way to the end, and then I, but I also need to make time for the things that I like to read, or I’m –

Sarah: Right.

Estelle: – going to go crazy! So – [laughs] –

Sarah: Yep! You need to replenish yourself with the things you enjoy.

Estelle: Yeah, it’s true! And it’s like, it’s funny, because, like, I just finished one of Forever’s books last night, and I’m like, like, even though the book is leisurely to me, as a Forever book and a book that I am working on, I’m still thinking like, how can I use that? Is that fun? Will other people think that’s interesting? And you’re not really –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Estelle: – thinking that way when you’re reading a, a book just for fun. Unless –

Sarah: I know all –

Estelle: – unless you are! Unless you are.

Sarah: Yep.

Estelle: People –

Sarah: I know all the words to that song. If I pick a book, there’s always a part of my brain going, how are you going to review this? What do you think? How are you going to explain this to a reader? What, what are you going to communicate about this story to a reader when you review it? How are you going to write about it? And I’m like, shut up! Trying to read here!

Estelle: Do you take notes when you’re doing that kind of thing, or do you just, like, do you not take notes, do you just take pictures of pages with your phone? Like, how do you manage that?

Sarah: It depends. I, I always read digitally. I just don’t have enough physical space in my house for the number of books that I read. [Laughs] So I highlight things, and I will look at my highlights, or I will write down notes if I’m having what I call word labor, which is when my brain starts producing the words, whether I like it or not.

Estelle: [Laughs]

Sarah: So sometimes that happens and it’s like, here are all the thoughts about this book! Get a pen! Like, thank you; I was trying to do something else, but all right, fine. So sometimes I take notes. Sometimes I can read a book, and I know exactly, like, the top three things I want to say about it? The, the review writing muscles are very strong at this point. Usually what I’m trying to do is explain what the book is doing, explain what I thought about the book, and then try to identify that with a letter grade, which is often the hardest point to, to do. Sometimes that involves taking notes, and sometimes my brain’s like, yep, here you go! One, two, three, and we’re done.

Estelle: Isn’t that interesting.

Sarah: Brains are weird, man, because –

Estelle: They are!

Sarah: – if I read outside the genre, like if I read outside romance, my brain is terrified! Like, is there going to be happy at the end? What if they’re not happy at the end? What if they’re all dead? What if someone kills the dog? What, what, what, this is not okay. Let’s go back. [Laughs]

Estelle: Oh no. I just read a book la-, two weeks, I don’t, you know, I don’t know what time is right now, but I read, maybe a few weeks ago I read a book, and the dog die-, was killed at the end, and I’m like, no. This is terrible.

Sarah: Uh-uh! No!

Estelle: I’m not okay! [Laughs]

Sarah: I don’t remem-, I think it might have also been Erin again – Erin’s like a secondary role in this podcast episode – she sent me a, a Nora Roberts that involved dogs, and I emailed her and I said, if a single dog dies in this book, we are going to have a problem, and she’s like, I completely and utterly promise that the dogs are all fine. And I was like, okay. Thank you.

Estelle: [Laughs]

Sarah: I am not here for this. Not at all. No. No, no, no, you cannot kill the dog. Not happening.

Estelle: I know. That was –

Sarah: So –

Estelle: – still terrible. Ugh!

Sarah: So here’s a question for you: in a normal time, when you would, you know, leave your apartment –

Estelle: [Laughs]

Sarah: – put on a dress maybe? [Laughs] I would, I would actually do my hair? My hair is so big? My hair is so –

Estelle: Oh my God, I want to –

Sarah: – big.

Estelle: – talk to you about your hair. My hair is, like, as a fellow short-haired person, my hair is –

Sarah: Oh my –

Estelle: – a disaster! [Laughs]

Sarah: Estelle, Estelle! I’m growing a mullet! It’s a mullet! I’ve, can almost make a ponytail in the back!

Together: Oh my gosh/God.

Estelle: That’s hilarious.

Sarah: What do I do? I –

Estelle: I don’t –

Sarah: – I’m –

Estelle: I think you need to shave the back of it. No?

Sarah: I, well, my, my, my sons are like, Mom, Mom, I – and we have a beard trimmer. We don’t have hair clippers, and hair clippers are very hard to find right now. But my husband has a beard, so we have a beard trimmer, and I’ve been trimming everyone’s sideburns, which, if you can do, makes a world of difference, because it’s just the part next to your face, and all of a sudden it’s, you know, you’re a little shaggy on the top, but your sideburns look great!

Estelle: [Laughs]

Sarah: That soothed both of my kids for a little while, but I’m think I might have to take the beard trimmer and just start shaving heads.

Estelle: Oh, it’s, I, my hair kind of grows out, so I, like, the sides –

Sarah: Yes!

Estelle: – are, are horrible, and that’s kind of my signal when I need to get a haircut?

Sarah: Yeah!

Estelle: Even though I’ve already missed two, clearly, and I’m going to continue to miss them? And –

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Estelle: – instead, I’ve been thinking about growing out my hair anyway? And then I –

Sarah: Well, now’s the time! [Laughs]

Estelle: Well, before – I know! I was like, well, at least I can go through the real terrible part where I’m just hanging out with my cat and my husband – [laughs] – so –

Sarah: Yeah, right?

Estelle: Yeah.

Sarah: Yeah, hair is, hair, hair is, oof. And let, well, let us not even discuss eyebrows? [Deep breath]

Estelle: I’ve got to be honest: I think – and I’ve been looking through a lot of old pictures, because that’s been, like, one of my quarantine projects? And, you know, I used to butcher my eyebrows when I was, like, in college and high school?

Sarah: Everyone did, I think, yeah.

Estelle: Right! So that –

Sarah: It’s just a phase.

Estelle: I’ve been in the, like, grow out for a while. Like, I haven’t gotten my eyebrows done in probably two years now, but because of all of the extra plucking, like, I just have holes in my eyebrows now, so I have to say, like, my eyebrows is the part that I’m, like, least worried about at the moment.

Sarah: Oh, I look like caterpillars have parked across my forehead.

Estelle: [Laughs]

Sarah: The big ones, the big ones you see after, like, the rain has come out? That’s what I got rolling right now. I got, I got the full unibrow. It’s, it’s really something, and it’s weird because I look at it and I’m like, I don’t look like myself, but oh, yeah! Look at those brows. Okay, well, moving on.

[Laughter]

Sarah: Have you started digging in the back of the toiletry cabinet for, like, Dippity-Do and, like, extra-strength hair product that you only have a tiny bit left of? ‘Cause I, I did that this weekend.

Estelle: It’s funny, because I have kind of stopped, with this new kind of cut I have with my bangs, I guess, I have stopped really using a lot of product, but I was thinking, thank God I still, I didn’t throw out what I had, because –

Sarah: Yes!

Estelle: – I’m going to, go-, I’m going to need it.

Sarah: [Laughs] So be-, in the before times, when you left your home and went to work, publicity was trying to get media coverage and connecting books with readers and connecting books with bookstores and setting up events for release dates and things like that. None of that is happening now! What are the things that are the same, and what are the things that are different, doing publicity?

Estelle: I should start by saying, before all of this happened, I was fully expecting my author to go on tour in April, so I had organized the entire tour, I had booked all of the travel, and then –

Sarah: Nooo!

Estelle: Yeah! And then when we’re, you know, we started being really serious about being home, we still had about a month to go, and I was thinking, like, about all of the hours. Like, it’s a very detail-oriented project, and it –

Sarah: Planning travel for someone else?

Estelle: Ugh!

Sarah: Yes, it’s incredibly detailed! I used to do it! It’s, it’s minute-by-minute accounting of someone else’s movement and time, and then you –

Estelle: Right!

Sarah: – need to communicate with them, and you’re not there, so you have to make sure it goes smoothly! Oh yeah, I’ve been there. That’s not fun, and it’s a lot of work.

Estelle: It is a lot of work! And it was her first one. It was her first tour.

Sarah: Nooo!

Estelle: Yeah. And I –

Sarah: Ugh!

Estelle: – would, like – so in addition to knowing that I was going to be stuck in my apartment for many weeks and that our whole lives were changing, I was really kind of mourning all of that work and also the fact that she wasn’t going to get this first tour, and I think that was –

Sarah: Oh!

Estelle: – really hard. It was extremely hard to deal with, and we’re about to the place where she would have been done touring, like, at the end of –

Sarah: Oh!

Estelle: – this month, which is – and I’m still thinking about it, because I, I’m like, oh, man! Like, at any time, this would have been such a different month. But, you know, we, it, we rebounded, and I think that was something that was really tough to do, and I’m glad that I was working with someone who was so flexible? She was willing to do absolutely anything. She understood that, why we had to cancel. All of those things came together, and we were able to put together, like, a really great virtual event, which was also anxiety-inducing, so it’s like, it’s not only anxiety-inducing when you’re just planning an event where people go in person and you have to make sure you sell tickets? But it’s equally anxiety-inducing when you’re like, technology is a big part of it, and is it, the sound going to work for this event? Are people actually going to buy a, a ticket to attend an event where she’s hanging out in her living room?

Sarah: Yeah.

Estelle: So it, it brings all of these other questions up, and, like, I’m grateful that was my first experience doing this, because I know I’m going to have to continue doing things like this, because I’m just, you know, it’s, the thing, it’s like, okay, maybe things will open up in June and that’s great, but also promoting an event is, it means you have to do it before June, and if no one is thinking about going outside or everyone is nervous about being outside, you can’t promote something.

Sarah: No.

Estelle: There’s just not enough time.

Sarah: And you can’t promote something when you’re like, all right, well, this might happen here –

Estelle: No.

Sarah: – but it might happen here. Like, you need –

Estelle: Exactly!

Sarah: – to be able to say, here’s the thing and when it is and where it is, and here – and, and again, it comes down to the why?

Estelle: Yeah.

Sarah: Like, well, here’s the thing, and here’s why you want to be there.

Estelle: Right. And I think through all of this, and not just work-wise, but I notice that if something is definite, like, very closed, if it is closed, people are not going to go, but if there is a gray area, people are still going to venture out, right? So it’s like, I don’t want anyone to have to be anxious about the gray area. Like, should I go? Should I not go?

Sarah: Oh, yeah!

Estelle: I want them to, to know that they don’t have to go somewhere and that they just have to tune in on their computer, and we’ve made a decision. But it is a hard part to decide after all of that work or all of that planning, knowing like eight months ago they thought they were going on tour, that that’s changing. So I think that has been sort of taking up a majority of my time since we’ve been home? And –

Sarah: And uncertainty is exhausting.

Estelle: It is!

Sarah: It’s so exhausting.

Estelle: It, it is. It really, really, truly is, and I – I think the media thing, like, I said, has been a little, has been fine. You know, most media is home. I feel like they’ve been very responsive, and I do think – romance is a comfort read.

Sarah: Oh yes!

Estelle: People want to read romance, and I, I feel like people are very receptive to pitches, but it’s like, do I have time to write them? Because I’m reworking something that I shouldn’t have had to rework in the first place, so it’s also sort of –

Sarah: Right.

Estelle: – having to deal with that. And I think marketing-wise and even just being on social, it’s, that’s, it’s tough. I mean, we talk a lot about tone and what our readers want to hear, and, you know, I feel, like, I run a newsletter for reviewers and book bloggers and Bookstagrammers –

Sarah: I’m on this newsletter!

Estelle: Yay!

Sarah: And I will tell you, it’s fabulous –

Estelle: Oh, thank you!

Sarah: – and you’re doing a wonderful job with this newsletter. It is –

Estelle: Oh, thanks!

Sarah: – really well done.

Estelle: Thank you; I try. I, you know, every, people are very complimentary about it, but then it’s also sort of selfish for me, because it feels good to just be honest with people and talk to them about books or, like, if they don’t want to read books, that’s an, that’s fine too, and I enjoy having that kind of outlet for myself – [laughs] – and even just going on social and talking to them, it helps me as much as it helps them –

Sarah: Yeah!

Estelle: – you know?

Sarah: For sure!

Estelle: I’m sure you feel that similarly.

Sarah: I have never been more thankful for my own website than I have been in the last few months.

Estelle: Yeah!

Sarah: I mean, not only, my traffic is massive. Like, the increase has been astonishing? But the people are coming to hang out and be in a space that is welcoming and safe and comfortable, and we’re just talking about books, and it’s, it’s a, it’s a, it’s a safe respite to just be in the comments and to talk to people? And the other thing is, I’ve noticed, with, with romance readers, people who I didn’t usually see talking about reading romance have been like, that’s all I’m reading. I’m reading nothing but romance. I don’t care what anyone thinks; give me more, please. I want more.

Have you noticed increase in attention to certain styles or genres or comfort reads or contemporaries or paranormals, like, ex-, like, exploding? Have you noticed an increase in your, in your sales and attention of different books in your lists?

Estelle: I mean, I – I mean, everyone is talking about rom-coms forever – [laughs] –

Sarah: Yeah, that –

Estelle: – but I think – and that still is something that people are really coming to. They just, they want to laugh, but I also think a lot more people are listening to audio, which is amazing, and I’ve seen so much more audio updates on Instagram especially, which has been amazing, and I – and also, I don’t know, this doesn’t really answer your question, but I’ve been really happy to see how many romance readers are supporting indie bookstores at this time. Because I think –

Sarah: Oh, for sure!

Estelle: – that is such a huge part of what I’m trying to do, as much as I can in my position, but also as much as I can do personally, because I worry about them so much, and they’re so important to the book community?

Sarah: Yes!

Estelle: So I think that’s been also really lovely to see. You know, it was supposed to be Independent Bookstore Day this past weekend, and a lot of people still put updates up, and there were, like, a lot of, like, virtual things going on, and it was just really nice to see how many people were saying, like, yeah, I bought from my store, like, this past weekend, and – or I tried this store, and it’s been – I really have been really happy to see that, because it’s just so important, and I think, even for romance readers, where I think they haven’t always felt welcome at an independent bookstore, just, like –

Sarah: Yes.

Estelle: – you know, they, I, it, I don’t know; it just warms my heart even more.

Sarah: I was just going to say, much like the media has changed a lot in the last few years in how they cover and examine romance, more independent bookstores have become more welcoming and open and eager to have romance readers in the store. I’ve noticed that shift in the last few years too.

Estelle: Yeah. It’s amazing, and I, I mean, there’s still a long, long, long way to go? But I’m –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Estelle: – so happy to see that they’re more receptive? Even if it’s, you know, just trying out a romance event for the first time –

Sarah: Yeah.

Estelle: – I think it’s been really, at least, it’s just been really amazing to see. I love the indies that I work with, and when I worked in kids I worked with indies all the time, because we were planning tours all the time, and the indies would plan school visits with our authors, so that was one part that I really missed when I first started at Forever, because there were really opportunities to have events, so I am just so glad that that has come back, because I’m personally a huge, like, bookstore-goer, and I’m, I’m sad that I can’t walk to my local bookstore right now. I’m sad for, like, that bookstore browsing is not a thing right now, so, you know, anything that we can do to support them is just so important.

Sarah: What are some things that are working for you in terms of publicity and talking about books online when everyone is alone and together online? What are some things that are working for you?

Estelle: I think talking about rereading books is a really important –

Sarah: [Laughs] That’s the topic of my article for the Washington Post –

Estelle: Yeah!

Sarah: – rereading, yep.

Estelle: I think – you know, it’s so funny – I think when a lot of people are in book slumps, my number one piece of advice is always go back and reread your favorite book. Because –

Sarah: Yes, absolutely!

Estelle: Yeah, and I stand by that, and I think a lot of people are doing that right now, and I’m happy to, I’m happy to, like, cheerlead them when they do that, even – I think – well, this is sort of going around your question, but I think, you know, on Twitter and social in general and, everyone’s always talking about new releases, right? I mean, my job is to talk about –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Estelle: – new releases, but at this time, not everyone can go out and buy new releases. Let’s be real –

Sarah: Unfortunately, no.

Estelle: Like, everyone is dealing with a lot of personal stuff, so I think also making sure that they realize it’s okay?

Sarah: Mm-hmm!

Estelle: Like, you don’t have to always get the new shiny thing, because more than likely there are five books in your house or your apartment or wherever you are that you haven’t read yet –

Sarah: Yep!

Estelle: – even if they’re from years ago! And I think it’s a good time to go back and look at what you have. And I –

Sarah: Oh yes. 

Estelle: – that’s something, you know, I don’t, I never think, like, our social is, like, overly promotional. I think we speak more to the emotion of reading and the excitement we get and kind of fangirling over it; I think that’s what Forever does on social? And I think just continuing with that and also giving our readers access to authors in a way maybe that they haven’t had before, just because everybody is home and there is that opportunity to schedule things, because not everyone’s as busy?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Estelle: So I think those are, those are some of the things. I mean, and also just making sure we’re sharing books that are available. I think a lot of people want to binge-read an entire series; they want to know that they can get, like, the e-book for that book. So those are all things that I’m thinking about as we continue to share content and continue to share our books.

Sarah: Yeah. I also think it helps a lot when, when talking about books that are newer, that you haven’t read before, to emphasize what’s familiar about it, because our brains are also tired?

Estelle: Yes.

Sarah: Like, the, the, the hook – forgive me – of my article for Washington Post is that it’s normal to want to reread, because your brain is exhausted. When everything is new, everything is exhausting, and going to the grocery store requires like a fifteen-step containment process.

Estelle: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: There is no autopilot. We’re all tired, and our brains are tired, and cognitive energy is a finite resource. So when you reread something, you’re revisiting something where a lot of the cognitive work has already been done, and if you’re binging a series, you’re revisiting a world where you’ve already experienced that world; you’ve, you’ve done half the work already.

Estelle: Right.

Sarah: You, you can just enjoy the new, the new, the new series.

Estelle: It’s true! I was thinking in particular, like, small-town romance, right? I just finished reading one –

Sarah: For sure.

Estelle: – last night. Like, going back to that town is something we always look forward to when the new book comes out in general, but even so now, going back, like, reuniting with maybe some characters from previous books, and also just seeing –

Sarah: Yes!

Estelle: – what’s up in the town, it is so comforting, and it was actually, my poor husband, on all of these walks we go on, is, like, hearing me talk about this new book that we’re, we have coming out in July, and why I think that people are really going to like it, you know, because it does have, like, summertime feelings and things we like, and –

Sarah: Which book is this?

Estelle: Oh, it’s, it’s Annie Rains. She writes the Sweetwater Springs series for us. They’re sweet romance, and it’s called Sunshine on Silver Lake, and basically in this book there’s, like, this great, like, Fourth of July celebration and this great festival and all of these people coming together, which is something we’re probably not going to have this year in real life, but it was really just heartwarming and comforting to watch all the characters hang out and just have, like, a really nice summer night, right? So –

Sarah: Yeah!

Estelle: – mm-hmm. Yeah, but that, that series is, in general, I, I always like going back to it? She just has such great little side characters, but even more so, it felt really, really good.

Sarah: Yeah, the same is true for the Carly Bloom books: you’re visiting this very, very small community.

Estelle: Exactly. Exactly, and Carly Bloom, it’s like, you’re going to laugh, you know you’re going to laugh, and I think that that’s really nice too, and with those stories, coming back and reuniting with the characters, sure, but then also, like, because of the fairytale element, I think that’s also something really nice and comforting right now?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Estelle: My husband and I have been –

Sarah: It’s familiar!

Estelle: Yeah, it is. We’ve been going back and trying to watch all the Disney animated movies in a row from the beginning, which has been a very slow process, because neither of us really want to watch Fantasia, so it’s kind of a thing.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Estelle: That’s why I think, like, reading something like Carly Bloom’s series with the fairytale – like, Cinderella is Cowboy Come Home – and then going back and like, okay, what Cinderella movie can I watch? Like, we have time to do all of the things now. We can read the book, and then we can watch a movie to complement it.

Sarah: And I think that sort of permission to indulge is so important. Like, I notice at the end of the calendar year, when it’s holiday shopping, people sort of feel like they have permission to buy and splurge and, you know, gift shop and go shopping and indulge in, you know, holiday parties. There’s this sort of, you, it’s okay to do that right now. Yeah, in this period of time where we’ve all, we’ve got permission to wear comfy clothes and eat comforting food and read comforting things and watch our favorite stuff, it’s okay. You’ve got nothing else to do; do what makes you happy.

Estelle: I was talking to a friend about this, and she was saying it’s like perpetual summer vacation, and I can’t –

Sarah: Yes!

Estelle: – get that out of my head! Like, on Fri-, la-, Friday night, whatever week that was, I, like, stayed up till 3 a.m. reading an entire book. I was like, when is the last time I ever did that? It was –

Sarah: And why not?

Estelle: Right, exactly! I was like, I have nothing to do tomorrow.

Sarah: Why shouldn’t you? Yeah!

Estelle: Right!

Sarah: Whatever is going to give you comfort and joy and peace right now? Do that, for sure!

Estelle: I totally –

Sarah: Especially if it’s reading romance. Go do that! [Laughs]

Estelle: Yeah! I, I, I can’t agree more. I mean, we just need it. We just –

Sarah: Yep.

Estelle: – we just need it!

Sarah: So, can I ask you – this is going to seem like five and a half years ago –

Estelle: Mm-kay.

Sarah: – but can I ask you about the walkout?

Estelle: You can! You can! I don’t –

Sarah: Remember that?

Estelle: Yeah. It does feel like five and a half million years ago.

Sarah: Was it February?

Estelle: No, it was in March. It was like the week –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Estelle: I know. It was the week before, I want to say we were, yeah, it was early March. Isn’t that crazy? [Laughs]

Sarah: Yes, that’s right, because I was on, I was on vacation the first week of March, and I remember reading about the work, the walkout and thinking, fuck yeah!

Estelle: [Laughs]

Sarah: Hell yeah! So tell me about it; what happened?

Estelle: Well, it all started when they had made an announcement that Grand Central would be publishing the Woody Allen memoir.

Sarah: Boooo!

Estelle: Yeah! I mean, we – like, again, Forever is a part of Grand Central. I remember being at my desk and getting the email with the press release and think, and, like, my stomach just, like, dropped.

Sarah: Oh, I can’t imagine.

Estelle: Yeah, I was like, this is, this is not going to be good. And it’s, you know, it’s –

Sarah: It hurts when that, that happens.

Estelle: It does hurt, yeah. It, it does. I think, especially – I don’t know if you were following what happened with the American Dirt novel at Macmillan –

Sarah: Oh yes.

Estelle: – very closely, but, you know, we –

Sarah: Yes.

Estelle: – had just – again, I don’t know what dates are, but I think that had happened in like February, and we, I was following that really closely. You know, when you’re in publishing, you know people who work everywhere, so you know people who work at Macmillan and are dealing with that all the time, and it was really hard – [laughs] – to, it was just – it’s, you know, I think there’s, it’s a reminder that as great as our jobs are and how fun they are, it’s like, there is someone in charge and who is making these decisions that doesn’t necessarily align with what you think is right. And I think that’s sometimes the hardest thing to – I don’t, I don’t know – give, give into? I think, and I think I felt that way with the Woody Allen; I just didn’t understand why we were giving him a platform. I mean, of course this is all my personal opinion, not really understanding how it fell into the grand scheme of the type of books that GCP publishes.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Estelle: It was a really emotional time at work. When talk of a walkout started to pop up, I, I honestly didn’t know what I would do?

Sarah: Very scary, to stand up –

Estelle: It is!

Sarah: – against your job like that.

Estelle: It is really scary, and it’s, you know, I’m, like, a midlevel person, and, you know, I, it’s, like, not like I have a, like a backup job or, and it’s not even like you can think about all of those things, like –

Sarah: Yeah.

Estelle: – right before it happens, but we had had a town hall with our CEO and the publisher, GCP, that afternoon, like before they were planning, and I was thinking, let me see how that goes, because at that point they had already had many, like, one-on-one conversations with people who worked at the imprint, and I thought the town hall was just, like, rough. I mean, I’ve never, I, I don’t remember ever feeling – or just like a down feel – so the morale was just super low. I mean, I just don’t know how else to say it. Like, I can still feel how, feel it. Like, you, it was terrible. It was terrible, and I think there were just so many brave coworkers who were willing to come forward and speak and tell stories and ask really tough questions, and I am just – like, I don’t think I’m that good, like, right off the bat. Like, I’m someone who really needs to, like, go home and, like, think it through –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Estelle: – and I’m more of a quieter person when it comes to things like this? And there was just, like, no time for, for that? And so I’m just, I’m beyond impressed by my coworkers and what they were able to share, how they really put the decision-makers to task. I thought it was beyond impressive, but also, the answers were disappointing.

Sarah: Yeah.

Estelle: And I, I don’t – I think, you know, it happened in the beginning of March; then the next week, we basically, our, it’s like COVID, everyone’s talking about it. When are we, how are we going to work from home? What’s safe? All of these things, and even after the walkout, you know, no one knew, are we, are they going to cancel the book?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Estelle: Like, no one really –

Sarah: It was people from just about every part of Hachette, right?

Estelle: Yeah, mm-hmm, it was. It was, I guess I kind of sped to the, after this, but after that, like, town hall, it was just like, I can’t, I can’t think of sitting here and continuing my work today. I can’t. I had just felt like the answers that we were given were just not good enough, and so I was like, okay, I’m going to also walk out, and it was, it was really, it was really amazing. Yes, it was people from all over the company, and then the next day we go in, and I didn’t, I, it was just, we didn’t hear anything, and, and then later in the afternoon they announced that they were canceling the book, which I did not, I really did not think that they were going to cancel it. So I’m, I’m happy that they canceled it, but I think also because this just hit up right against COVID, I worry that a lot of the conversations that were started have disappeared?

Sarah: I don’t think so. For two reasons. One: people are talking a lot more to each other online about everything right now –

Estelle: Okay, good.

Sarah: – and –

Estelle: Very good point.

Sarah: – also, that’s a situation where you might have felt really alone; like, do I want to walk out? Do I want to go outside? Do I want to, do I want to leave my space and stand up and do something different? And then you go outside, and there’s, like, a ton of your coworkers who all made the same decision.

Estelle: Right.

Sarah: So you, you were not alone in doing the strange and terrifying thing, and now you’re still not alone in doing the strange and terrifying thing, which is staying home and not leaving your house at all, in New York, where you live in an apartment –

Estelle: [Laughs]

Sarah: You have all my empathy. It, it, it, there’s a parallel there, I think, because you’re, you know that you’re not alone when you see everyone else doing the strange and terrifying thing too, and that you do have, when you work together, an enormous amount of power, but it’s really hard to get everyone to work together, so when it works it’s really inspiring, and I think, I don’t think that conversation is going to stop, because it worked. It, that’s massive! Like, I didn’t expect that either, and then it was published by somebody else, and everyone was like, yep, and it sucked!

Estelle: Mm-hmm! I know. We were, we were actually just talking about that, because –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Estelle: – it published right during when we’re, like, all stay at home, and then it was like sort of a blip on the news, and then it just totally went away. So –

Sarah: Yep!

Estelle: – I think you’re right, and actually it’s kind of, I’ve been kind of obsessively watching Andrew Cuomo’s con-, conferences every, every day, and, you know, he keeps talking about how we have to learn from the past, right?

Sarah: Mm-hmm?

Estelle: And that kind of brings me back to this too. It’s like, you know, I hope that the decision-makers, like, remember this whole situation –

Sarah: Yeah.

Estelle: – and it just doesn’t happen again.

Sarah: Yeah.

Estelle: Yeah.

Sarah: Alas, there will always be toxic men desiring platforms –

Estelle: Ugh.

Sarah: – to talk about how wonderful they are, but with enough coordination, we, we can make them shut up.

Estelle: I mean, we can only hope, right? [Laughs]

Sarah: Right?

Estelle: I mean, I think sometimes I’m, like, naïve in my hopefulness that this won’t happen again, but, you know, we’ve been disappointed time and time again with a lot of the decisions publishing makes.

Sarah: But you got this one!

Estelle: Right, it’s true. It’s true.

Sarah: Like, that’s major. It’s really hard to convince a publisher to forgo money. Like, that’s not how business works! I know! I run one! So it’s really hard to be like, yeah, you should give up this, this book that might make you money or get you attention because it’s the right thing to do? That’s a big win.

Estelle: Yeah.

Sarah: It’s a really big win!

Estelle: Yeah. You’re right, you’re right.

Sarah: So how are you in New York? You okay?

Estelle: [Laughs]

Sarah: Haven’t heard any sirens. I was like, shit, are there going to be sirens in the background? ‘Cause I know that’s a very big deal.

Estelle: Yeah, there, there hasn’t really been any today. It’s been getting quieter. It’s been, it’s weird. Being in New York is weird. I mean, we’re outside of the city, but we can, you know, we see the subway every day. We can also walk a little bit, and we see the Long Island Rail Road, and it’s just crazy to think there’s barely anybody on those trains right now. I think we’re really lucky. I mean, I feel like I have a good place to work, and my husband is great, and, like, we’re fine, but it’s just, you know, we’re not used to being stuck in our apartment this much. We really look forward to our long walks on weekends or just, like, stopping by a bar and just doing those little things. Even just grocery shopping has –

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Estelle: – totally changed, and I have always hated grocery shopping in general, but –

Sarah: Oh, me too!

Estelle: God, it’s the worst! And now it’s –

Sarah: I don’t know where anything is; I’m inefficient; stuff moves around. Ugh!

Estelle: It’s been, I, the last, maybe not this past week, but the last two times before that, I just wanted to cry when we were there. Just seeing the empty shelves – the, I mean, we, we’ve started actually going to a different grocery store, ‘cause we live, like, close to tiny ones, but because they are tiny, we didn’t want to go to them anymore?

Sarah: Oh, it’s so stressful! When you’re –

Estelle: Yeah.

Sarah: – we, we were talking about that here, like, do we go to this store that has the wider aisles, or do we go to this one that’s closer that has narrower aisles?

Estelle: Yeah, we actually –

Sarah: I’m not used to thinking about that!

Estelle: I know! Me neither, but I’m glad that we started – like, we just have to walk ten minutes and we go to a bigger store where they have a lot of, they put a lot of rules in place before our tinier stores did –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Estelle: – and they have, like, a lot more variety of food, but it’s just weird to think, like, that’s our one outing a week? I mean, we do walk every, every night, we try to, but we do it late so we don’t really see that many people?

Sarah: Yeah.

Estelle: But then the grocery store’s really our big, our big moment of the week, and that’s –

Sarah: Yep.

Estelle: – what’s strange. [Laughs]

Sarah: And the thing about living in New York, when you live in an apartment, is that so much of your life takes place in other places.

Estelle: Yeah. It’s true. It’s true. It’s, I, I don’t know. I feel, like, it’s funny ‘cause, you know, the only time that I’m not on the subway or I’m not commuting is, like, usually when I’m on vacation, but now it’s just like, that’s not the case. I’m sitting in my apartment, and, you know, we have, like a one-bedroom that is a relatively decent size, but it’s still small when you’re working and living and trying to, like, have a good time, all in the same space? I do have –

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Estelle: – a greater appreciation for it, though. I think we’ve really, it feels very cozy right now; it feels very homey. We’ve, like, hung up some photos that we’ve been, like, putting off forever, and –

Sarah: Aww!

Estelle: Yeah. So I think it’s been, we’re, we’re sort of nesting in many – [laughs] – in many ways, which I’m sure a lot of people feel, but it’s still –

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Estelle: – it’s still strange. It just doesn’t feel like New York. I mean, no one is a fan of this. There are good days and there are bad days, and I, it’s just hard when there’s no end date, and also, like, the things to look forward to, you don’t even know what those things are.

Sarah: No, and you don’t know what they’ll be like. If you could go back to, like, February Estelle, and be like, listen, there’s going to be a time when you miss the subway and you miss your office and you miss going to work like you would not believe, would you, would, would Past Estelle have believed that?

Estelle: No. Not at all.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Estelle: It’s, you know what’s actually so ironic is that, I’m going to say, Hachette is a, is a great company to work for. They literally are very, everyone is very nice, but one thing that they had started this year was, like, a work-from-home policy that was company-wide, so it was a big thing where it was going to be, like, a lot more accepted to work from home, and then I’m like, that is just too funny to me, that that was, like, the big initiative for this year, and literally that’s all we’re doing. But the positive side is that people who didn’t think that we can work from home now know that we can, because we have been forced to, so I’m –

Sarah: Yes.

Estelle: – I’m truly hoping that that changed, changes things down the line and they’ll be more open to hiring people who might not necessarily live in New York.

Sarah: Right, ‘cause it’s not an easy or, or a cheap place to live, by any means.

Estelle: Not at all!

Sarah: So tell me, what books are you working on, and what are you reading that you want to tell people about?

Estelle: Okay. What I’m working on: well, I’m very excited for June. We have The Boyfriend Project by Farrah Rochon coming out. I feel like I’ve been working on this book forever, which is – also, I say forever all the time, and then I just giggle – but –

[Giggles]

Estelle: Farrah is amazing, and I love her so much, and I think this book is going to be such a fun read for people, especially people who are missing their girlfriends so bad right now?

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Estelle: It’s about three women who meet when they realize that they’ve been dating the same guy? They decide to sort of take a break from dating completely, and they make a pact that they’re all going to concentrate on a personal project that they’ve sort of been forgetting about or pushing to the side for a long time, which actually is so fitting for right now in general, ‘cause it’s like, we have all the time in the world to work on the thing that we’ve been avoiding. So it’s an, so the main character decides that she’s going to start working on an app idea that she had, and of course, like, as soon as she agrees to the six months of no dating, she, like, walks into work and there’s, like, a delicious new guy who’s working and who’s so kind to her and so thoughtful, and she’s like, I just don’t know if I can hold up my end of this bargain. I’ve really enjoyed this book, and I’m so excited for the series. Like, there’s going to be three books, and then each will follow each of the girls and their personal project. So there’s just, like, a lot to like there, and again, Farrah is just such a delight, and I’m really, really excited for readers to get this book.

And then in July, I kind of skipped ahead and I was reading some of our summer books, but I read Paradise Cove by Jenny Holiday, and if anybody knows me – [laughs] – they know that I don’t really shut up about Jenny Holiday.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Estelle: Again, she is, she is an amazing writer. I think she’s like, she wrote rom-coms before rom-coms were all trade paperbacks, I think? Her Bridesmaids Behaving Badly series was one of my favorites that I worked on and is personally a favorite series of mine that I would buy for anyone I know. But she started a new series this year that’s a small town by a lake, and the second book, which she told me was her favorite, it is her best work. It’s about, the hero is a guy who lost his son a few years ago. His son passed away. He had since gotten divorced, and he’s sort of like this fixer in the, the small town. He, like, is quiet. Everyone understands that he’s a quiet guy, they don’t ask too much of him, but he’s always going around and just, like, fixing things and helping people, and he starts helping this new doctor who comes into town, and they form a friendship. He is able to talk to her about things that he’s never talked to anyone about, and at the same time she sort of has, like, this idea that she’s only going to be in this small town for two years. We all know how that goes. And they, like, I don’t know, just, like, the way that she wrote about grief in this book, the things that she, the journey she had the hero go on I thought was, went way beyond what I expected? I cried, I laughed – I read it in less than twenty-four hours. I truly think it’s, like, a masterpiece and is going to go down as, like, one of my favorite romance novels ever.

Sarah: Ohhh, wow!

Estelle: Yeah. It was like, it was so good, and also, they talk a lot about pizza in that book, and I was like, I’m here for the pizza conversation. It was really, it was, it’s really good. So that comes out at the end of July.

So those are, those are two that I’m really looking forward to. I’m trying to think – oh, and then we have actually another book that I – I’ve had a lot of reading time, as I’m sure you are not surprised, but I rec- –

[Laughter]

Estelle: – Kiss My Cupcake by Helena Hunting. This is a standalone romantic comedy, and I swear, like, it couldn’t have come at a better time, because the book is about, like, two small business owners who are kind of competing for this spot on a huge YouTube channel? And I think, like, you know, when we’re all talking about supporting small business and we’re worried about small business, I just, this book just felt like a love letter to small business, and to family-owned businesses? It was very sweet.

Sarah: Ohhh!

Estelle: Like, she’s the cupcake owner, and he owns a bar that has, was owned by his grandfather, and it, it ties to this story of, like, family history and how the grandfather met the grandma, and I, it was just like, it was really great. I really enjoyed it. So that one comes out in August, and I just think everyone’s going to need this, like, sweet romance. And again, just, I just loved how it was all about small businesses supporting each other and yeah! So that was, that was a really good one. I think Helena’s a really fun writer, and I think people are really going to like it, and there are a ton of cupcakes in that book, so then you’re going to be real hungry. And then you can bake, because we have all the time in the world!

Sarah: I’m her for both the pizza and the baking conversation. Like, these sound like great conversations I’m happy to have, have for like two, three hours.

Estelle: Right, totally! I mean, it was so funny, ‘cause I was, like, emailing Jenny about something, and she’s like, well, I’m just, like, not sure what the hook is here. I’m like, clearly the hook is whether or not people like Hawaiian pizza or not. That is all we need to talk about. [Laughs] I like when there’s food in books. I mean, it does make me hungry, but I, I just feel like it’s a nice little memory.

Can I talk about some fun reading? Some fun reading that was not Forever related.

Sarah: Obviously!

Estelle: I read a, Real Men Knit by Kwana Jackson? I stayed up really late reading this one. This was before my 3 a.m. reading marathon? It was, like, the book I read before that, but I was staying up really late reading it, and I guess in – again, it’s, like, set in New York, and it’s about brothers who are trying to figure out what’s going to happen with their mom’s knitting shop after she passes away?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Estelle: And maybe I’m just feeling – I mean, clearly I’m feeling nostalgic for all things New York right now, because nothing is normal, but it was just like another story about people coming together and figuring out this, like, important business to a community, which is, like, not a sexy hook at all, but to me, I just felt like it was really fitting for the time, and I also just loved the romance? It was just, like, two people who always had feelings for each other, but, like, for one reason or another, never acted on it? And it was just really, it was really sweet, and I really enjoyed it. I haven’t, like, stayed up – I know I have talked about the 3 a.m. thing a lot, but before that I hadn’t really been like, oh my God, I need to stay up till 1 a.m. reading this, and I don’t really want to stop, but I really, I really enjoyed it, so that was one of my fun reading ones.

And I really, I mean, I’m still, like, really liking The Worst Best Man by Mia Sosa. I feel like I’ve recommended that book to a lot of people, and I actually just, I missed my mom and my sister’s birthdays because, you know, quarantine, so I sent them, like, a box of romance novels, and I included the Mia Sosa in there, ‘cause I was like, well, they’re quarantining together; like, they could just bor-, like, exchange the books. So I sent them The Worst Best Man, and I, I think my mom should be reading it now, so I’m anxious to hear what her –

Sarah: Aw!

Estelle: – what her review is, because she’s been leaving book reviews on Facebook, which is hilarious and adorable. [Laughs]

Sarah: At least you get to, you’re, you’re, you’re sharing something with people.

Estelle: Yeah! I mean, I used to steal her books, so I might as well just, like, give her all of the books now.

Sarah: Use your powers for good!

Estelle: Yeah. I have to say, she really likes that I have this job, because I’m constantly, constantly like, here, you should read this! You should try this! How ‘bout that? So she has all the books.

[music]

Sarah: And that brings us to the end of this episode. Fear not, friends! I will have links to all the books we talked about and several other nifty things in the show notes, and guess – guess! Guess, guess where you can find them! I bet you know! Smartbitchestrashybooks.com/podcast! Yes. Sometimes I even screw up saying my own URL. That is big fun, let me tell you.

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You want to get in touch with me? Tell me about how much you also need a haircut, and that like me, you have the hairstyle of every member of every boy band ever at the same time? Oh yes, I feel your pain? You can email me at sbjpodcast@gmail.com. I love hearing from you, so if you have suggestions or you want to share a recipe – I had a number of requests for more episodes about baking and desserts and cake? We can totally do that, ‘cause I am baking all sorts of things – please email me and let me know: sbjpodcast@gmail.com.

I always end each episode with a terrible joke, and today is no exception, because obviously we need really bad humor. This joke comes from Chelle, and it made me grin, because, well, you know how terrible these jokes are, right? They’re really bad! All right, here we go. [Clears throat] Professional Podcaster Voice:

Why did the bubblegum cross the road?

Do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do – give up? Why did the bubblegum cross the road?

It was stuck to the chicken’s foot!

[Laughs] It’s, there’s some points where I read these, and I can sort of hear you go, ugghhh! So I imagine there was groaning just then. There was, right? Yeah, I’m sure.

On behalf of myself and all of the mammals currently trapped in my office, ‘cause I shut the door like a terrible podcaster, we wish you the very best of reading. Have a wonderful, tranquil weekend, and we will see you back here next week.

Smart Podcast, Trashy Books is part of the Frolic Podcast Network. You can find more outstanding podcasts to subscribe to at frolic.media/podcasts.

[groovy music]