395. House of Earth and Blood, With Courts of Thorns: A Conversation with Sarah J. Maas

[music]

Sarah Wendell: Hello, and welcome to episode number 395 of Smart Podcast, Trashy Books. I’m Sarah Wendell from Smart Bitches, Trashy Books. With me today are Amanda and Sarah J. Maas. Her new book, House of Earth and Blood, the first in the Crescent City series, is out this week, and it is a much-anticipated release. This is her first adult fantasy title. We are going to talk about pretty much everything, and we have questions from our Patreon community as well. I think they were probably as excited about this interview as we were, and I cannot tell you what a wonderful time we had talking with Sarah. This is so much fun. So much fun, in fact, that I think Amanda also needs to change her name to Sarah, because that would make it more fun for garlicknitter to do the transcript, right? [LOL – gk]

I want to say thank you to Emily Fisher, publicist at Bloomsbury, for coordinating all the pre-interview details, and thanks to our Patreon community for not only making the transcript possible but for also submitting questions, particularly to Molly, Olivia, Danielle, Agnes, Taryn, and Stephanie. Your questions were wonderful, and even if I didn’t include all of them, it was truly wonderful to help develop this episode with you.

If you would like to join our Patreon community, have a look at patreon.com/SmartBitches. Monthly pledges begin at a dollar, and you get to hear about upcoming interviews with super cool people like the one we have today!

And you know, I don’t want to delay getting started. This interview is long and wonderful and so much fun, and I am so excited for you to hear it, so let’s do this podcast thing: on with Amanda and me talking with Sarah J. Maas.

[music]

Sarah J. Maas: I’m Sarah J. Maas, and I am the author of a whole bunch of YA fantasy books: the Throne of Glass series, the Court of Thorns and Roses series, and a Catwoman novel; and I’ve got a new, my first adult novel, Crescent City, House of Earth and Blood coming out on March 3rd, so, yeah, I’m a, I’m a writer.

Amanda: [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: I write a lot of books. That’s me! [Laughs]

Ms. Wendell: Yeah, you know, books that no one has ever heard of, and, you know –

Ms. Maas: Yeah!

Ms. Wendell: – you didn’t sell out, like, a whole auditorium theatre in, in London for your book tour or anything like that, no.

Ms. Maas: Oh, no!

Ms. Wendell: Which is amazing! Congratulations!

Ms. Maas: Thanks! I mean, like, that kind of shit’s, like, crazy to me still.

[Laughter]

Ms. Maas: Like, I still, like, I look at, like, I hear that, like, I get the news that it’s happen-, and I’m like, who really wants to go see me babble on stage about, like, abs and, like, hot dudes and utter nonsense? But I mean it’s, it’s crazy. I mean, it’s amazing, but it’s, it still kind of blows my mind that anyone wants to come see me.

Ms. Amanda: [Laughs]

Ms. Wendell: Many, many people. Many. Many, many, many.

So, adult debut.

Ms. Maas: Yeah!

Ms. Wendell: First of all, I want to say that adult fantasy novel is my second favorite unintentionally naughty term, my favorite being adult services librarian? Adult fantasy novel sounds like it could go in many directions.

Ms. Maas: Oh, like, I mean, you don’t even know. I’ve actually had one person in the past – it was some dude, some, like, old-ass –

Ms. Amanda: Of course it was.

Ms. Maas: Oh my God.

[Laughter]

Ms. Maas: I could tell you so many stories about, like, the dude things that have been said to me when I describe my writing, but what – this was years ago, and when I said I write teen fantasy novels, he was like, what kind of fantasies? And I was like, the, like, ones like Frodo in Lord of the Rings.

[Laughter]

Ms. Maas: What kind of fantasies are you talking about, bro?

Sarah: Ewww!

Ms. Maas: Yeah. And so, like, he literally, he went to, like, a very strange, like, sexy place with my teen fantasy books? He, I guess, had never heard of fantasy as a genre before.

But, yes, this is my adult fantasy novel that does actually have a bunch of sexytimes – [laughs] – but is, yeah, definitely hardcore, like, real fantasy, not just sexy ones.

Ms. Wendell: What was different about writing this versus earlier books? Like, is there a, did you notice a, a difference – in addition to the sexytimes – between writing this and your prior series?

Ms. Maas: Not really. I mean, I think there’s – I’ve been asked this question a lot, you know, as I’ve been doing media for Crescent City, and I’ve really been reflecting on, you know, why people keep asking me, what’s the difference between writing YA and adult, and for me there’s, there wasn’t much difference beyond the fact that I could get away with saying fuck like ten times on a page if I wanted to.

[Laughter]

Ms. Maas: There were so many fucks in this novel that I –

Ms. Wendell: Yes!

Ms. Amanda: [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: – my editor and I had to go through it and just, like, switch it up every now and then for some variation.

Ms. Amanda: Did they, like, Control-F for fucks and they’re like, Sarah –

Ms. Maas: [Laughs]

Ms. Amanda: – we’re, we’re clocking five hundred fucks in this manuscript right now?

[Laughter]

Ms. Maas: Yeah. I mean, I mean just, like, but it was, like, cool, ‘cause I, it was, you know, one of the first times where it was just like, fuck this, fuck that, motherfucker, blah-blah-blah! And I’m like, I didn’t, like, I wasn’t like, uh-oh, can I get away with it? And instead the issue was just finding some variation of, you know, swear words to use?

Ms. Amanda: [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: But, I mean, there wasn’t much difference, and I think there’s kind of this misconception out there that writing Young Adult is easier and simpler than writing adult novels?

Ms. Wendell: But no! [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: No, yeah! I’m like, I mean, so many, you know, YA books are just as complex and deep as adult books out there, and when it came to writing Crescent City, my process was basically the same as what it was for my Young Adult books: you know, the deep dive into characters, into the world, you know, building the romance. So, I mean, I, I guess that sounds a little, like, silly, but, like, really, like, the only thing that was different was, you know, the cursing and then, I mean, my, my Court of Thorns and Roses books have, are, are definitely for an older audience. I mean, I originally sold those as New Adult, but they, New Adult didn’t really become, like, a thing in a, like, a section of Barnes and Noble, so my publisher was the one who made the decision to shelve it in YA, but the content in A Court of Thorns and Roses is very graphic. I mean, I, when the second book in the Court of Thorns and Roses series came out, I mean, there’s a, like, three-day sex marathon in that book, and –

Ms. Amanda: [Laughs]

Ms. Wendell: Well played, by the way.

Ms. Amanda: Sounds like my Presidents’ Day weekend!

[Laughter]

Ms. Maas: Well, I actually, so, my family, like –

Ms. Wendell: Oh God!

Ms. Maas: – God, God bless ‘em, my family, you know, reads my books, like my parents, my grandma, they all read my books and –

Ms. Amanda: [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: – I mean, my dad and I have this understanding that, like, you know, he just skips over those pages, but – so when the second Court of Thorns and Roses book was about to come out, I called my grandma, and I was like, Grandma, I’m going to send you one of my copies, but I just want you to know that there is some very explicit sexual material in this book, and my grandma was like, well, that sounds right up my alley!

[Laughter]

Ms. Wendell: Please tell me the page numbers!

Ms. Maas: Oh my God, I was like, my whole life is a lie. Like –

[Laughter]

Ms. Maas: – who are you? Like, who is this woman who, like, like, loves raunchy romance? Yeah, so, I mean, those books have, like, you know, a lot of sexytimes content, so I mean, even the content in Crescent City I think is on, it’s on the same level as what’s in the Court of Thorns and Roses book, even some of the later Throne of Glass books, so, I mean, that wasn’t much of a shift for me. Yeah, and that, I mean, it really wasn’t that much of a, a big change.

Ms. Amanda: I did have a question – this was not on the list, so apologies –

Ms. Maas: Yeah!

Ms. Amanda: – but it came up while you were –

Ms. Wendell: So two trains, two trains are leaving sta- – yeah, we’re going to, we’re, we’re just dropping it in, yeah.

Ms. Amanda: [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: All right.

Ms. Amanda: You mentioned A Court of Thorns and Roses – it’s always a mouthful when I try to say it. [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: Okay, you know what, we, we, we call it, we call it, I call it ACoTaR for short.

Ms. Amanda: ACoTaR, okay.

Ms. Maas: Yeah.

Ms. Wendell: So does the internet! That’s very handy!

Ms. Amanda: Yeah.

Ms. Maas: [Laughs]

Ms. Amanda: I will, in my brain, I never know how to pronounce that acronym? So – [laughs]

Ms. Maas: Yep. Yeah, ACoTaR, ACoMaF, ACoWaR, ACoFaS.

Ms. Amanda: [Laughs] But the, that series is getting new covers –

Ms. Maas: Yeah!

Ms. Amanda: – I saw, and they look more adult. Is that, like, kind of like a conscious decision to be like, hey –

Ms. Maas: Yes.

Ms. Amanda: – this could possibly be shelved in the adult fantasy/sci-fi section?

Ms. Maas: Yes. So that’s, that was actually my, I mean, my publisher and I have had many conversations over the past few years, ‘cause I’m, I’m sure you guys have heard this from other writers, but, you know, we’re constantly looking years down the road at, you know, what is going to be coming out and, you know, like, for me, like, I know what’s coming out in like 2024 at this point, and we knew that the upcoming ACoTaR book, the Nesta novel – which I read through your questions, and it seems we have a lot of people wanting to know about that book – that book I knew from the start was going to be firmly adult, and when I got the idea for these ACoTaR, I guess spinoff novels/continuation of the series, I wanted them to be adult. I didn’t want them to be shelved in YA anymore, and so the decision to repackage the, the ACoTaR book-, the earlier ACoTaR books with, you know, adult covers, or what I guess the industry considers to be more adult covers, is kind of the setup for the Nesta book being released, you know, as an adult novel, and I hope my publisher doesn’t mind me talking without the  –

Ms. Amanda: [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: – revisions. But yeah, so they wanted to release them before the Nesta novel comes out, just to kind of hopefully, God willing, introduce me to a new, you know, adult fantasy audience and then, you know, maybe give readers of the series a chance to reread the books with exciting new covers. And it was ac-, I mean, they, my publisher came up with the idea of having tattoos featured on the covers, which, ‘cause tattoos are, I think, in all of my books at this point?

Ms. Wendell: Ooh, smart.

Ms. Maas: But, but especially in the ACoTaR ones, and so we spent, you know, a couple weeks or maybe even months trying to find the right tattoo artist, you know, like, browsing on Instagram, trying out, like, different styles, and then we found these guys – I’m blanking on their name right now ‘cause I just did this crazy, like, boot camp workout and I’m –

Ms. Amanda: [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: – shaking. Right, I’m literally sitting at the table like, my limbs are jelly right now, and so is my brain. But we found these guys who are based out of Switzerland, I want to say, and their art is just fantastic and kind of captured the mood of the ACoTaR series, and they actually read the books and love them, which means a lot to me when, you know, a cover artist actually takes the time to read the material they’re creating the art for? And yeah, I mean, I’m so happy with how they turned out, and I’ve just got the final art for A Court of Mist and Fury, which I guess we’ll be revealing soon, but it’s really fucking awesome. So yeah, it’s been, like, exciting to see them kind of repackaged in this new way with this cool color scheme. Yeah, and hopefully, hopefully people like them as much as I do.

Ms. Wendell: I think just focusing on tattoo art is such a brilliant maneuver, because it also sends a very clear signal of the age line?

Ms. Maas: Mm-hmm.

Ms. Wendell: That’s so brilliant, and I’m sure – we have a, we, we want to ask you about fan art. Do you, do you have, like, a, a, a collection of people who have tattooed your work on themselves? I always find that to be such an incredible compliment.

Ms. Maas: Oh my God, I mean, the tattoos, when people show up to my events with tattoos of quotes from the books or, you know, illustrations, you know, just, like, tattooed onto them, like, I, I mean it’s, it’s still a little overwhelming for me ‘cause, I mean, I don’t have any tattoos. As someone who writes about a lot of tattoos, I have zero?

Ms. Amanda: [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: And I think I probably have tattoos in my books because I am so scared of getting one myself that, like, the characters –

Ms. Wendell: [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: – live out all my fantasies of getting cool tattoos? But, so, I mean, you know, the, the act of permanently inking words or images onto their body from my books, you know, that, that is huge, and that, I mean, it touches me. I mean, it moves me so deeply that someone wants to do that. I mean, I’ve had people come up to me at events and have me just sign my signature on their body? Like, literally take a Sharpie and, like, sign on their arm or their back, and then they’ve gone to the, straight to the tattoo parlor where the artist would, like, as far as they told me, would just ink over, like, what I had written on their skin.

Ms. Wendell: Wow!

Ms. Maas: Yeah, I mean, that, I mean, but then there’s so much pressure with that, ‘cause I’m like, shit, like, what if I fuck up my signature?

[Laughter]

Ms. Maas: And, and then, like, sometimes, like, their skin’s a little sweaty, and –

Ms. Wendell: Ooh!

Ms. Maas: – like, the Sharpie will, like, like, it’s not like a smooth, easy surface to write on like, you know, like –

Ms. Wendell: Oh no!

Ms. Maas: – like, like, sweaty human skin? And so I’m just like, in, like, my hands are already shaking from the pressure, then the surface isn’t ideal –

Ms. Wendell: [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: – and so it just, it is so stressful for me, but also, like, so freaking cool that, like, someone wants my, like, shitty-ass signature on their body.

[Laughter]

Ms. Maas: But, yeah, I mean, it is – and then, I mean, the fan art, I mean, you know, seeing, seeing anyone, I mean, you know, anyone take the time to be creative with my books and, you know, express their enjoyment and love of the books through their own creativity, I mean, that, that’s amazing to me. I mean, I, I mean, I, like, now that I have a baby I’m barely online these days, just ‘cause I’m either working or with my son, but I mean, I get sent fan art periodically just from, like, awesome friends of mine or readers that I’ve come to know quite well, who’ve just been like, hey, check this out! And I mean, it blows my mind. Like, it, it blows my mind especially when someone captures the characters so perfectly, like just how I saw them in my head that I’m like, it’s, it’s, it’s like, it’s, yeah – I don’t, I don’t have the words to describe how –

Ms. Amanda: [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: – how cool that part of the job is for me.

Ms. Wendell: I, I cannot imagine, especially because it’s – I believe I read this in a completely different subject genre, but the, the idea that creating in response to the things that we love is a fundamentally human thing to do, but it, it’s also the deepest level of engagement, that when you are so moved by something, you are, you are driven to create in response –

Ms. Maas: Mm-hmm.

Ms. Wendell: – it’s, like, a fundamental human connection, and it’s so cool that your readers are, are connected with your books like that.

Ms. Maas: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it’s that, this, yeah. I mean, I’m, like, literally, like, struggling for words to convey…

Ms. Amanda: [Laughs]

Ms. Wendell: I –

Ms. Maas: – find that, especially since, you know, I, my, like, people always ask, like, what’s your daily, you know, writing schedule like? Like, where do you work? What’s your, like, office setting? And, like, no one understands is that, like, I write in my, like, you know, spandex yoga pants and, like, a dirty old T-shirt with my hair in a scrunchie, like, unwashed for five days. Like, I only wash my hair when my scalp hurts, like, you know what I’m saying, at that –

[Laughter]

Ms. Maas: – point, and I’m like, you, like, put your hair up in a ponytail, and you’re like, ow! Like, what’s happening here? Like, that’s when I’m like, oh shit, I need to shower. But I mean, I create in such a Gollum-like hole –

[Laughter]

Ms. Maas: – that I’m inter –

Ms. Wendell: Write all the words!

Ms. Maas: [Laughs] But it’s just, it’s really, like, cool to see, you know, my work go out there into the world and then kind of come back to me in a different form, like in the, in the form of fan art or music, or people have made, you know, short films or, you know, an-, any kind of creative medium, it’s just, that’s, that’s really amazing to me.

Ms. Wendell: So what is the, the, the abbreviated hashtag for Crescent City House of Earth and Blood? Is it CCHEB? HEBCC? HEB-, HEBCaC? Wait –

Ms. Maas: I don’t know!

Ms. Wendell: – HEBCrack?

Ms. Maas: I have no i-, I have not gotten to the point – [laughs] – of thinking –

Ms. Wendell: HEBCrack!

Ms. Amanda: [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: I mean, I, I’ve been manually, like, typing out, like, #CrescentCity, #HouseOfEarthAndBlood, and it is getting really fucking old, and this book isn’t even –

Ms. Wendell: [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: I’m like, I, I, I write up, like, all of my captions in, like, like, a note before I post it on Instagram, and, like, it doesn’t Autofill, so I have to, like, make sure, like, each thing is correct.

Ms. Wendell: Yep.

Ms. Maas: But I feel like, yeah, House, House of Earth and – Ho, Ho, Ho –

Ms. Amanda: [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: So I have looked at this. Oh, I have – I don’t know.

Ms. Wendell: [Laughs] So –

Ms. Maas: This is a very difficult decision!

Ms. Wendell: So what was, what led you into the CCHoEB world?

Ms. Maas: [Laughs]

Ms. Wendell: What was your point of entry for this, for this story? I want to ask you about it. I have so many questions from our Patreon community –

Ms. Maas: Yeah!

Ms. Wendell: – about ACoTaR, Nesta, and Nesta, and in fact, one of my questions for you was, what is your most common question from readers? And I think I already know the answer to that one.

Ms. Maas: Oh yeah. I mean, nowadays it’s just Nesta this, Nesta that, Cassian this, Cassian that, which is awesome! But yeah, so with Crescent City, I got this idea years and years ago, and, I mean, I was a big fan and writing, you know, epic high fantasy at the time, but one of the things I probably read the most is paranormal romance/urban fantasy. Like, I love them, and I, you know, massive fan of J. R. Ward, Nalini Singh, Karen Marie Moning. Like, I mean, I could go on and on and, like, I mean, those authors are my idols and, I mean, when I would read their books I just, it’s like, damn, like, I wish I could write – like, you know, I had no ideas, you know, for a paranormal romance/urban fantasy type of book, and so, you know, I just stayed firmly in my epic fantasy, old school fantasy type of thing, but then, like a couple years ago I was – I guess it was more than a couple years ago – I was on tour for one of my books, can’t remember which one, but I was on an airplane, flying between stops, and I was listening to this piece of music from the Gravity soundtrack – you know that movie with Sandra Bullock, where she’s in space?

Ms. Wendell: Yeah!

Ms. Maas: It’s one of my favorite movies ever, by the way. I have never sobbed so hard in a movie as I did at the end of Gravity, like, literally to the point where the seat was shaking, like, my entire row was shaking with me, because I was, like, physically convulsing with sobs. But that’s a whole long story about, like, you know, how it moved me and whatever. But I was listening to this piece of music from the soundtrack on this plane, and all of a sudden I just saw this scene play out in my head that wound up being the climax of the novel, which I can’t even speak about without spoiling it, and I had no idea who these characters were, what this world was, but I saw this moment play out like, like a movie in my head, and I, in the middle of the airplane, began crying. And in case it isn’t clear already, I cry a lot. I’m a very –

[Laughter]

Ms. Maas: I cry all the fucking time. I just get very moved by things. But I, yeah, I heard this piece of music, and I saw this scene, like, pop into my head with these two characters at this pivotal moment, and I couldn’t get it out of my head. I, I, I listen-, like, for that entire flight – it was probably like an hour flight between cities – I listened to that piece of music over and over and over and over again, just focusing on that moment, and each time I listened to that piece of music and went through that moment again, you know, I zoomed out a little more on the characters, on the world, on what was happening. I began asking myself, who are these people, and why are in this, like, situation? What is this situation? And I think by the time I got off that plane, I had the kernel for Crescent City, and I realized, oh shit! Like, this is my paranormal romance/urban fantasy/modern fantasy novel that, you know, I’ve always wanted to write that combines so many of the things I love and find to be sexy: you know, angels and vampires and Fae, and then in this urban setting, and I daydreamed about it for years, you know, slowly building these characters in my head, and then I began writing it in secret for years, kind of between deadlines for books, or if I had a little bit of extra creative energy at the end of a day of working on either Throne of Glass or ACoTaR, you know, I would just pound out a couple thousand words of it, and I didn’t tell anyone really that I was working on it, and, you know, after a couple years I had probably around two hundred and fifty pages, very rough pages, but I knew that this was a story I, I had to tell, and as the Throne of Glass series was, you know, wrapping up and we were looking ahead – again, publishing likes to plan things years and years and years in advance – 

Ms. Wendell: Oh yes. [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: – you know, they wanted to know, what did I want to write next? And this was the story. This was the story that was close to my heart in a lot of ways, and so I, you know, I think I sold it to my publisher with a one-page synopsis and my Pinterest board for it?

[Laughter]

Ms. Maas: My – I’m not even joking.

Ms. Wendell: Wow!

Ms. Maas: I’m not even joking. My Pin-, I have not, I have, like, not used Pinterest in years, but, like, the, like, initially, like very early on, like, it was just so, like, I had a Pinterest board for it as a way to kind of like, you know, get inspiration, have some idea-, like, you know, keep track of some ideas. And so I sent my publisher, like, the one-page synopsis because the, the shit that I’d written at that point was not, like, ready for human eyes at all.

[Laughter]

Ms. Maas: Maybe my dog’s eyes, but not human eyes! But, so I sent them, like, the one-page synopsis, and then I was like, in case, like, you just need, like, a sense of the vibe of what I am going to write, like, here is my Pinterest board, and yeah, and so we sold it to them, and then I actually had to write the damn thing, and yeah, I mean, what I wrote initially has now been edited and, you know, rewritten a million times over, but I fin-, I think I finally, like, the, the final version of the book is what, you know, thank God, like, popped into my head originally, like, what I wanted to capture originally. Yeah, so it’s kind of been this, like, years-long journey –

Ms. Wendell: Wow!

Ms. Maas: – secret project that became a real project and is now, like, a couple days away from being out in the world as a, a real book, which is fricking crazy.

Ms. Amanda: Speaking of final versions, I do some work at a, an independent bookstore, and we received copies yesterday –

Ms. Maas: Mm!

Ms. Amanda: – so I was able to take a look at the, the finished book, ‘cause I just have an ARC of it, and it is stupidly gorgeous.

Ms. Maas: Isn’t it?!

[Laughter]

Ms. Maas: Oh my God, yeah. I am obs-, I am obsessed with this book. I, I know that, like, a lot, most authors don’t get control over their covers, you know, how the book looks, but I’m fortunate enough to work with an amazing publisher who includes me in the process and wants my involvement in the cover process, and so, I mean, we, like, basically, you know, God, this process must have started two years ago. My husband and I found the artist for the cover by browsing my, like, old-ass Pinterest board for Crescent City –

[Laughter]

Ms. Maas: – and we, yeah, we sent the, like, the link to the artist whose work – Carlos – I’m going to butcher his last name; I’m just going to call him Carlos – [laughs] – ‘cause I don’t want to sound stupid – but he, like, his work was, I mean, the vibe of it and, like, what he draw-, like, you know, like, lots of, like, angels and demons type of stuff, was exactly – like, it was almost like he reached into my mind without knowing it, and, like, that was the vibe I wanted, so my publisher reached out to him and contacted him, and he read, I think, a partial version of the manuscript that was still pretty rough, but he created the cover base-, the cover art based off of that, and, I mean, I was so blown away by it. His, I mean, his original art for the cover was so beautiful that when Bloomsbury, my publisher, decided they were going to, it would look more striking if they did a red wash on it, like, I thought it would be kind of sad to lose that beautiful original art, so we made the decision to have the original art be the endpapers inside, so you’ve got the red cover with, like, the, the gorgeous, like, red wash to it, which I love, but then you open it up and you’ve got the endpapers with the full, like, original, you know, untinted artwork –

Ms. Wendell: Wow!

Ms. Maas: – and then –

Ms. Amanda: There’s a map. I’m a sucker for a map.

Ms. Maas: Yeah. Oh my God, and then the map, my publisher suggested a couple different map artists and, I mean, this woman just, I mean, she knocked – I mean, like, we, my, I sent her a map that was so stupid and horrific. Like, I can’t draw. I have no skill.

Ms. Amanda: Was it a hand-drawn map? [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: I sent her a hand-drawn map that was like, this is, like, roughly where this should go. Like, it was so – I should, like, almost post the picture of the map that I sent and, like, what she made, because –

Ms. Wendell: Yes.

Ms. Maas: – ‘cause she took, like, what I would consider to be an idiot’s drawing and –

[Laughter]

Ms. Maas: – make a map out of it, and then I love, like, there are little secrets with the, like, you know, you take off the jacket, and then the front of the book is stamped with, like, this, the gold crescent moon, which I, I – that was me. Like, I told them, I was like, what if –

Ms. Amanda: [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: – the moon was stamped on there? I, yeah, I, I feel weird taking credit for that, but yeah, and so, I mean, every part of the book is beautiful, and then, I mean, we, I mean, we were, like, very hands-on with, you know, just the title page, like adding in the art kind of in the background of the title page, and then the –

Ms. Amanda: And, like, the, the paper texture is, like, very thin. It reminds me of, like –

Ms. Maas: Oh my God.

Ms. Amanda: – bible paper.

Ms. Maas: Oh my God, dooon’t get me started on that.

Ms. Amanda: [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: I, like, I literally, I literally call them bible pages, and they started – after A Court of Mist and Fury came out, that was my longest book to date, and the book was so long that when they printed it on the normal paper it took up a lot of shelf space, and, I mean, these are kind of like the nitty-gritty, you know, aspects of publishing that aren’t that, like, fun to explain or talk about, but basically you, you –

Ms. Wendell: Uh, this is actually fascinating, so please don’t stop.

Ms. Maas: [Laughs] Okay. Well, you can’t fit that many copies – if the book is, like, three inches thick, you can’t fit that many copies on a shelf, you know, in a bookstore, so, you know, when the stock runs out, you know, it’s, you know, often just left as empty space, or if you have, like, an endcap, you know, you can wedge in like one, maybe two books, instead of, you know, three or four.

Ms. Wendell: Mm-hmm.

Ms. Maas: And so after Mist and Fury, my publisher decided to print on thinner paper so that we could have my long-ass books, but not have them gobble up all the shelf space, and, and so I think the next book that came out was a Throne of Glass book, which was even longer than Mist and Fury, so that was the first time we had the bible pages, and to be quite candid, I hate them. I have told readers I hate them.

Ms. Amanda: [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: I think my readers hate them, but the reality is, is that certain retailers that I won’t name, like, you know, won’t take books that are over a certain thickness, which is also crazy.

Ms. Amanda: Oh!

Ms. Maas: Again, because of shelf, shelf space and depth, and so in order for me to tell the stories that, you know, the way they need to be told, which is as long-ass books, you know, we have to kind of compromise and have these bible pages, so yeah. I mean, and I, yeah. It’s weird for me, and I mean, when I was, I’m doing this giant virtual signing for Crescent City – I mean, you should see the state of my house; I have like two thousand boxes of books overflowing from every room – but, like, I mean, when I was signing the books, I mean, I was so scared every time I opened up the book that I would rip the page, just ‘cause they’re very, they’re very delicate.

Ms. Amanda: Yeah, I’m, I’m worried I’m going to be like a bull in a china shop and just, like, turn the page too aggressively.

Ms. Maas: No, wear, like, a silk glove and delicately turn the page –

Ms. Amanda: [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: – like you’re going through an ancient manuscript. [Laughs] Yeah, that’s, so the bible pages are kind of, I guess, a necessary evil for, you know, in order for me to be able to tell these really long stories. You know, we kind of have to compromise with that; otherwise – I mean, like, there was a point – so with Kingdom of Ash, the final Throne of Glass book, I mean, we printed on bible pages for that, but the book was still fricking huge. I mean, that book was so long, just ‘cause, you know, it was the last book in the series, and I wanted to cram in everything that I could possibly, you know, wrap up, but we, then the book was a thousand, it was over a thousand pages by the time it was done, and about three days before it was supposed to go to the printer, I get this email from my editor – former editor now, but – saying, the book is too long. It has to be under a thousand pages, because the glue that we purchased to bind the book can’t hold anything over a thousand pages, and if it’s longer than that pages will literally fall out of the book once it’s printed.

Ms. Wendell: Holy crap.

Ms. Maas: This was with three days, and I had everything I wanted in the book. You know, like, it was done; it was, I was proud of it; it was perfect in my eyes; and I was like, I don’t fucking know what to do. Like –

Ms. Amanda: You’re like, what if I just took out all the commas?

Ms. Maas: Yeah, exactly!

Ms. Wendell: [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: I mean, and so –

Ms. Wendell: We don’t need punctuation!

Ms. Maas: I mean, I, I was, like, frantically going through stuff to try and find little, like, things to cut. Like, if there was, if there was a chapter where there was kind of a dangling, you know, three lines on, like, one page, and the rest of it was empty, like, trying to find three lines on, like, throughout the chapter where we could maybe bump that, you know, like to save pages, but in the end, my publisher wound up, I think, like, tweaking the margins or maybe bumping up the chapter headings a little bit, so that –

Ms. Wendell: Wow.

Ms. Maas: – dangling – like, they worked some magic so it clocked in at I think nine hundred and ninety-six pages maybe?

Ms. Amanda: That’s that, like, college term paper magic right there.

[Laughter]

Ms. Amanda: Like, change the font; we’re going to –

Ms. Maas: Oh my – well, so, I actually do that shit with my manuscripts. They’re so long that I make the margins, like, wider so that the page count is lower, even though the word count is still the same –

Ms. Amanda: [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: – but it makes me feel better, like when I send in the book to my editor and it’s like, you know, eight hundred pages instead of a thousand pages, just ‘cause I, like, you know, made, like, just widened – [laughs] – widened the page a little bit more. Yeah, I still, I still do that, even though it ultimately has no effect, I mean, on –

[Laughter]

Ms. Maas: I mean, the books are based on, you know, word count. Like, the Word, the Microsoft Word document that I’m writing in, you know, doesn’t impact the, once they lay it out, lay out the book in its, you know, printed format. It’s all about the word count. So yeah, but these are the glamorous things I’ve learned over the years –

Ms. Amanda: [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: – working as a writer.

Ms. Wendell: So it sounds like the, the second book in the Crescent series will – it’s Crescent City series – will be like Comic Sans eight point.

[Laughter]

Ms. Maas: I just took a, a sip of my tea and almost spat it out –

Ms. Wendell: [Laughs] Sorry!

Ms. Maas: – all over my brand-new Mac Book Pro. [Laughs] This is a dangerous –

Ms. Wendell: Sorry!

Ms. Amanda: It’s been christened is what just happened.

Ms. Wendell: Yeah! It’s been baptized! We were  talking about bible paper.

Ms. Maas: [Laughs]

Ms. Wendell: So I am told by the cover copy, by my copy, by many pieces of material about this book that there is searing romance. Okay, first of all, heck yes, it’s searing romance! What is, what kind of romance are we looking at here? ‘Cause, as you know, we’re, we’re a romance site; we have a romance readership.

Ms. Maas: Yes, yes.

Ms. Wendell: We, we need to talk about that part.

Ms. Maas: Yeah –

Ms. Wendell: And then I have a buttload of questions about Nesta and Cassian –

Ms. Maas: Okay, okay.

Ms. Wendell: – again. With the searing, all of the searing. Searing details is what we’re looking for here.

Ms. Maas: [Laughs] Oh my God. All right, this is my favorite subject. Yeah. I mean, you act- –

Ms. Wendell: We like you so much! Please come and be on the show every week.

Ms. Maas: I would love that. I mean, I literally, like, all I read – if I have time to read these days, which is not that often, thanks to a baby – but I mean, it’s always romance, whether it’s paranormal, contemporary, historical romance. Like, that is what I read; that is what I love to read.

Ms. Wendell: Yes!

Ms. Maas: But we can discuss all that in another podcast at another time! 

Ms. Amanda: [Laughs]

Ms. Wendell: Yes, when you’re not on book tour.

Ms. Maas: Yeah. But, so the romance in Crescent City is what I would call, like, slow burn, but also hate-to-friends-to-more where like –

Ms. Amanda: Yes, hello, thank you.

[Laughter]

Ms. Maas: Hunt and Bryce, you know, the two main characters, like, literally hate each other and curse at each other, and, I mean, Bryce, my main character, she hates, you know, the alpha male type. She calls them alpha-holes, and Hunt is sort of an alpha-hole in some ways, but also surprises her in a lot of ways and challenges her ideas of, you know, you know, whether a man, you know, a man being assertive – a ma-, a male being assertive, ‘cause he’s not a human man; he’s an angel, a very sexy angel assassin – but, you know, whether, you know, him giving his opinion counts as, you know, him being an alpha-hole. So they have this very, like, I don’t know, they’re at each other’s throats for a good section of the book, but both of them are pretty alone when they, they meet each other, Bryce because, like, most of her friends were murdered, and then Hunt because he’s this assassin with a pretty brutal past, and he doesn’t want friends. And the two of them become each other’s person, you know, like, to quote from Grey’s Anatomy. Like, you know, Hunt and Bryce become this dynamic duo together, and, I mean, the sexual tension is there from the start, but, you know, it definitely goes from hate to friends helping each other heal from their pasts to, you know, hot sexytimes. That will continue, definitely. The arc of the sexytimes will continue to greater levels in book two.

Ms. Amanda: [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: I will not spoil what it is, but I’m very excited for some of the sex scenes in book two, and I know that sounds so weird saying it, but there will be some, like, magic involved. Like, magic emotionally, but also like literal magic involved in some of those sex scenes.

Ms. Amanda: Well, it’s like the, the, the reins are off and you’re just like, I’m just going to go balls to the wall with this –

Ms. Maas: Exactly.

Ms. Amanda: – ‘cause I have the opportunity.

Ms. Maas: Exactly, and I mean, like, at this point, I’ve kind of gotten over my family reading my books. I’m just like, you know what? Whatever. I’m writing the books that I want to read.

Ms. Amanda: Well, you know Grandma’s into it, so.

Ms. Maas: Yeah, I mean, at least my grandma will support me. My dad will just rip out those pages and pretend he never saw them.

Ms. Amanda: [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: Cool with me! But, yeah, so, I mean, the romance – and, and the romance was one of the reasons why I wanted to write this book in the first place, ‘cause I, I wanted it to be that slow burn, hate to friends to, you know, more than that. Like, one of my favorite books ever is, is Alice Clayton’s Wallbanger? You guys ever heard of that?

Ms. Amanda: Ooh, that’s a good one. I love her Hudson Valley series.

Ms. Wendell: Oh, good call.

Ms. Maas: Yes! Okay, yeah, I, I, okay, and, like, that’s one of my favorite, like, hate to friends – like, I love how they become, like, like, buddies to, like, you know, sexual partners. [Laughs] It’s such an un- –

Ms. Wendell: To fuck buddies!

Ms. Maas: Fuck buddies, and then Sally Thorne’s The Hating Game; have you guys read that one?

Ms. Wendell: Oh yes!

Ms. Maas: I, I’ve read that book like five times. I love that book. That’s another one of my favorite, like, you know –

Zeb: Bark!

Ms. Maas: – hate to friends to more. And then, I mean, Elle Kennedy’s –

Zeb: Bark!

Ms. Maas: – who’s at a Briar U – was there a doggy? Do I hear a little doggy in the –

Ms. Wendell: That’s Zeb. He supports all of your book choices? He’s very supportive of all of your favorites. He thinks you have excellent taste and cannot contain himself.

Ms. Maas: [Laughs] Oh my God! Well, yeah. Elle Kennedy writes, like, I mean, she writes, she’s written a ton of romance books, and then she’s got this, like, hockey series, it’s like college hockey series? I’m trying to remember the first – all the names are, like, blurring in my head.

Ms. Wendell: Don’t worry; we’ll pull, we’ll, we’ll list them all; no worries.

Ms. Maas: Oh my God. What’s the first one called? It’s driving me crazy. 

Ms. Amanda: Was it The Deal?

Ms. Maas: The Deal is the first one, where that is also, like, hate to friends to, like, more, and I, like, that’s, like, one of my favorite, like, tropes, I guess, like, aside from the marriage of convenience thing, which, like, I also love. [Laughs] But yeah, so, yeah, the romance in Crescent City was one of my, like, the things that I just – I mean, I didn’t, like, plan it ahead of time, like, I want to do this kind of romance! It was just, I had these two characters, and when I put them in a room together, like, that was the kind of romance that unfolded, and it was really, really fun to write.

Ms. Wendell: You have so much taste in line with Amanda, I feel like you guys need to just –

Ms. Amanda: [Laughs]

Ms. Wendell: – recommend books to each other?

Ms. Maas: Yes! [Laughs] Oh my God!

Ms. Wendell: Like, you, your tastes line up perfectly.

Ms. Maas: [Laughs] Oh, that’s great!

Ms. Wendell: So I have questions from our Patreon community. When I announced that I was doing this interview, I had this, like, response of, oh my gosh, I’m so excited!

Ms. Maas: Oh my God.

Ms. Wendell: And I’ll just read some of the questions, because they all have a very similar, similar theme, and I love that one of my questions, like I mentioned, was, well, what are the things that your readers ask you most? I know the answer now.

Ms. Maas: Yeah!

Ms. Wendell: I am aware of the answer here. So Molly wanted to say that she loves ACoTaR.

Ms. Maas: Oh, thank you!

Ms. Wendell: She wanted to know, she wanted to know how many books are going to focus on Nesta. Olivia wanted to, wanted me to ask about Nesta and Cassian, ‘cause it is her favorite ship, and if it was hard to write about Nesta, given the reactions to the character?

Ms. Maas: Nesta’s new book – I guess I’ll focus on, like, Nesta first and then talk about the future plans for the series – but, so Nesta, as of right now, I’ve, I’ve sent in draft one, like back in early January, and I have my edits on it, but I’m about to go on tour, so edits are taking a break, but Nesta right now is just one book, and my plan for these ACoTaR, you know, the, the continuing ACoTaR series was to have it shift to romance pair, like one couple, like, per book? And the first one is Nesta and Cassian, and Nesta, from the start, I mean, when she, when she appeared in the series, in the original trilogy, I mean, I knew that some people were going to hate her, some people were going to love her. I wrote her the way she appeared in my head and in my heart, and I’d been waiting a long time to write her story, and she – this is actually probably the first time I’ve had to kind of talk in depth about Nesta’s story, but writing that book was an extraordinarily emotional thing for me, that Nesta struggles a lot with her mental health, with facing her past, with healing herself and learning to love herself and open herself up to other people, and there were some aspects of her journey that, you know, my, my personal life never really works its way into my books, but sometimes I feel like I sort out my shit through writing my characters in my books. A lot of Nesta’s, some of her, her issues were ones that, you know, really resonated with me, and it was hard to write, not because I was thinking about, you know, whether people liked her or not, but just because I had to, you know, open up that vein and let myself bleed all over the page, basically. And so her journey means a lot to me. You know, the, the romance with her and Cassian is like, you know, there is so much sex in that book that –

Ms. Amanda: [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: – one of, like, I just got my first edit letter, and my editor was like, so do we need all these sex scenes?

Ms. Wendell: Yes. Yes, we do. Thank you.

Ms. Maas: To give you an idea of how, like – I, I thought I was being, like, I thought I reined myself in with this one?

[Laughter]

Ms. Maas: No, I’m not even joking, because there was a threesome scene in this book that I wrote that was so fucking hot, but then I, like, I cut it, ‘cause I was like, no, this is, like, too much. Like, my editor, who, like, you know, is totally sex positive for books, like, I knew, I was like, she will, like, keel over dead if she reads this scene! [Laughs] So I, I refrained from including the, like, raunchy threesome scene.

Ms. Amanda: You should still include it as some kind of like preorder bonus.

Ms. Maas: Oh my God, I don’t even know if I can release that into the world, ‘cause it is, like, as filthy – [laughs] – a sex scene as I have ever written! Filthy in the best possible way, but oh my God! Yeah, but –

Ms. Wendell: If our votes count for anything, we both say, yes, definitely? Yes, absolutely yes.

Ms. Amanda: We had a, a good review for a book with an alien hero who has mandibles, so I think you’ll be fine.

Ms. Wendell: This is nothing! You should bring it out! Yeah.

Ms. Maas: [Laughs] Okay. I mean, yeah. But so, as of right now, like, I need to not tone down the sex, because the content of the sex is fine; it’s just like, there were some, I guess, like, just so much sex that, like, my editor is like, it’s like, you know, some scenes were not boring to her, but she was like, we can, like, do something else in this scene instead of them banging. But yes –

Ms. Wendell: [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: – so there is plenty of, like, sex and, you know, the romance and, like, you know, the build to it, but, but Nesta’s emotional journey and how she learns to face these dark and sharp and difficult parts of herself, you know, that is something that, it just, it really moved me and was hard for me to write. I mean, I’ve, I mean, I’ve not really talked about this publicly at all, but, I mean, like, I, in this past – this, this year I started going to therapy for the first time in my life, and I mean, I am now a big believer in therapy and medication. I mean, I struggle with, you know, severe anxiety and some depressive symptoms as a result of the anxiety, and I found it, I don’t know, not strange, but just, the timing of it, it seemed almost fated that I was writing about a character going through all of this, and I planned Nesta’s journey well before I was going on this journey myself, but I found it, you know, really – it, it helped me in a lot of ways, and I found it, you know, like, I don’t know, the fate of the universe or something was playing into it, where, you know, Nesta was going on this journey at the same time I was, you know, finally going on this journey for myself. And I mean, I told you guys about my boot camp that I was just doing this morning, and one of the things that Nesta does that helps with her anxiety and gives her a sense of focus is physical training and, and exercise, and, I mean, I’ve been, I mean, I’m a profoundly lazy person. Like, I hate moving, but I mean, I’ve been doing this program for, like, let’s see, two months straight, and, I mean, I find myself now, like, ev-, like the, like the night before, like, looking at, like, what’s coming up for my workout the next day, ‘cause I’m, like, excited to, like, get my ass kicked, and it, it clarifies something in my mind, the movement and the breath and the sweating? So yeah. I mean, that’s not to say that, like, you know, Nesta’s book is, like, about me. That’s not, like, her journey is still different from mine, but I think it allowed me to get deeper insight into her character, to also be going on a slightly similar journey at the same time that she’s going through it, so this book – you know, Crescent City was really close to my heart in a lot of ways because Bryce has a, a slightly similar situation, but this one really hit home in a lot of ways for me, and I’ve got a lot of work to do on the book still, a lot of editing to go before it comes out. I think it’s supposed to come out in, like, a year from now? Like, maybe next February – don’t quote me on that, but –

[Laughter]

Ms. Maas: – there’s a lot of editing to do before then, but it’s one of those projects that I’m really excited to work on, and I really hope will resonate with readers who maybe are going through similar things, and, you know, hopefully leave them with a sense of hope for themselves and, you know, maybe heal, healing and, you know, just – I want all my books to leave my readers with a sense of, of hope and happiness and that things can get better. I mean, that’s very important to me, actually.

Ms. Amanda: Well, as someone who goes to therapy every week and has an appointment at two today, welcome!

Ms. Maas: Nice!

Ms. Amanda: Welcome to the therapy fold!

Ms. Maas: [Laughs] Oh man, I love it so much, and it’s, like, I just told my therapist – probably weird to say this on a podcast, but I was like, I –

Ms. Amanda: [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: – look forward to therapy once a week, just because – and, like, I was like, just, just because I have so much that I’ve realized that I, I need to discuss and work through, and I actually, once I get back from my tour I’m, I asked my therapist to bump it up to twice a week, just ‘cause I realize, like, holy shit! I got, I got a lot of things to tell you, and a lot of things that I need help figuring out. I’d never done therapy until this past, what, November, and it’s been a gradual life-changing thing, along with, you know, medication, but, I mean, I’m, it’s a long road, but it’s one that I’m so happy I finally started on, and I was afraid, I mean, for a while to start to, like, even do therapy, ‘cause I thought it would mean that I, you know, somehow was weak or in, like, you know, I was afraid that they would put me on medication, ‘cause I had heard from other writers that, you know, medication, you know, fucked up your ability to create –

Ms. Wendell: Mm-hmm.

Ms. Maas: – and so I think I, I suffered for a while, until it got to a really bad breaking point when I couldn’t take it anymore, ‘cause I was so scared of not being able to function. Like, you know, like, not being able to create if I got put on drugs. Meanwhile, I think the medications that I’m on literally saved my life, and they have changed my life, and they have not affected my creativity at all, and, you know, maybe it’s different for other writers, but I just want to, like, put out into the universe, like –

[Laughter]

Ms. Maas: – if you are hesitant to go to therapy because you are a creative type and you are scared that medication will mess up your ability to create, that was not the case for me. It has not impacted that part of my brain. It has allowed me to be able to create again without these anxieties and fears that were debilitating, interfering with, with it, so yeah, I am a big supporter of therapy –

Ms. Amanda: I –

Ms. Maas: – medication. I mean, I also, I mean, I meditate four times a day, and I exercise, and so, like, I’m doing a lot of, like, self-care things right now to – but I, yeah. I, it’s been a, an interesting journey for the past few months.

Ms. Amanda: I’ve done therapy for, like, most of my life? But then on the opposite side, I have a younger brother, he’s twenty-six, and I remember asking him one time, Zack, would you ever consider going to therapy? And his response was, why? Nothing’s wrong with me. And I was like –

Ms. Maas: Yeah.

Ms. Amanda: – thank you so much, Zack! [Laughs] As someone who goes to therapy every week –

Ms. Maas: Yeah. And that’s the th-, like, you know, that’s the thing. Like, you, I, I think I had that mentality, like, myself, where I was like –

Ms. Wendell: It’s a very common stigma.

Ms. Maas: – if, if you feel like, you know, if, going to therapy meant that something was wrong with me, and as someone who has, you know, tried to do my best my whole life, admitting that I was not okay, that there was something, you know, that, you know, that I was, like, suffering, like, wasn’t a, it wasn’t a sign of weakness.

Ms. Wendell: Yeah.

Ms. Maas: And yeah, I’m, I mean, I still – I mean, God, if my parents hear this, this’ll be the first time that they know that I’m going to therapy. [Laughs] I haven’t told my parents yet. That’s, I’m sure that’s really weird. But, like, that’s the thing, like, I want to talk about it? Like, I want, ‘cause I, I had this misconception in my head that going to therapy, being on medication, was a sign of weakness, that it would somehow impact, the medication would impact my creativity, ‘cause I’d heard from other writers that it did –

Ms. Wendell: Mm-hmm.

Ms. Maas: – and they had to go off their meds ‘cause they’ couldn’t create, and, I mean, I’m my family’s breadwinner. Like, I, like, you know, my, my husband works with me full-time, and if I can’t write then, like, we’re fucked! And so I, I was terrified of, like, oh my God, like, if I can’t write then what, what do I do? But that wasn’t the case for me, and so even if it’s, it’s, like, strange for me, and I’m sure I – using the right terminology. Like, I’ve never spoken about, like, this shit that goes on inside my head and what I’ve been doing to help myself, but I feel like I, I want to speak about it just for anyone who, you know, was like me. Or, you know, maybe like your brother! Like, who just think –

[Laughter]

Ms. Maas: – you know, like, you know, nothing’s wrong with me; I’m fine. And –

Ms. Amanda: Well, he’s, he’s an attractive white dude who’s never needed glasses or braces or anything in his life. [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: Yeah.

Ms. Amanda: So I wasn’t surprised that this was his response.

Ms. Maas: Yeah.

Ms. Wendell: And it’s really hard to explain the feeling of, oh, thank God I have therapy this week! I know where to put this feeling.

Ms. Maas: Exactly.

Ms. Wendell: I have someone to talk to. The feeling of, I know what to do with this feeling, and I know who I can get help with it from, I know who I can go to for help, that is the greatest feeling, and it’s really hard to communicate that to someone who isn’t aware that that’s a thing that you can do!

Ms. Maas: Yeah! No, and I, I had no idea until I started going, just what, like, how, how powerful it would be. I mean, I tell my, I tell my husband everything. I mean, like, we are, like, oversharers in our –

Ms. Wendell: Yeah.

Ms. Maas: – own family, but –

Ms. Wendell: Yep.

Ms. Maas: – but, like, he know, like, he knows what, he, he knows about the, the struggles and episodes that I’ve had in the past, but, I mean, he’s not a trained medical professional, and this past fall it, it got to a point where, like, I basically had a two-week running panic attack that –

Ms. Wendell: Oh no.

Ms. Maas: – you know, it wasn’t like the panic attack where, that, like, some of my friends have had where, you know, they can’t breathe; they’re sitting on the floor. Like, it was a more – and I didn’t know it was a panic attack until my psychiatrist told me that, you know, like, panic attacks don’t just have to be, like, you know, unable to breathe, you know, sitting on the floor. Like, it was like a full-body, like, sensation, like my body was full of acid, and, you know, this, like, crying and flipping out, and, like, you know, I was, I was a mess, and I’d had similar episodes in the past, but ones that had usually gone away after a day or two, but this one wasn’t going away, and I was looking ahead to the future and I was like, I, I can’t, I can’t imagine a future where I have to keep going through this or I get to a point where this just doesn’t stop, and I, that was the point where, you know, I’ve got this, my son now, and I, you know, I decided to go to therapy partially for him, to, you know –

Ms. Wendell: Mm-hmm.

Ms. Maas: – get better for him, but also for myself so, ‘cause I was just, I was suffering, and, but it took me a long time to realize that I was suffering, and, but then the act of being able to go into someone and explain what I was going through and actually have someone explain to me what I was going through, like, I’d, if you had asked me beforehand, like, if I had anxiety and depression, I would have said no, absolutely not, but as I’ve been working with my therapist, I mean, she’s explained to, like, you know, she has explained, like, yeah, you do have those things, and, you know, like, and given me ways to, to manage them and face them and understand, you know, what is unique in my brain and, you know, heart that causes these things. So, I mean, it’s an ongoing journey, but it’s one that I am so grateful that I finally started going on.

Ms. Wendell: I am so glad that you did? I mean, you’ve never met me, but I am so very, very glad that you did, because it is not worth the agony of thinking, all right, I just have to think my way out of this.

Ms. Maas: Yeah, yeah.

Ms. Wendell: I could just think myself into feeling better! No, that’s –

Ms. Maas: Yeah.

Ms. Wendell: You, you can’t solve the problem with the same brain that’s creating the problem! [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: Exactly, and that’s what I did for years! That is what I did for years, until I couldn’t do it anymore. I was like, I can think and rationalize and calm myself down, and then I, I stopped being able to do it.

Ms. Wendell: Yep!

Ms. Maas: Yeah.

Ms. Wendell: I have an additional question/comment from someone on my Patreon that came in after I sent you the, sent you the questions –

Ms. Maas: Okay.

Ms. Wendell: – and I wanted to share this with you because I know that you probably are very well aware that what you do makes a difference, but I also think that it’s incredibly important and powerful to share that you can get help for things that are scary and in your mind, and that it won’t make it worse; it will make it better.

Ms. Maas: Mm-hmm.

Ms. Wendell: Stephanie says, I would love for Sarah to know that her series has helped me realize that I was in a toxic relationship, and it was the first fantasy I’ve loved as dearly as Harry Potter.

Ms. Maas: Oh!

Ms. Wendell: So good on you!

Ms. Maas: I’m, like, literal-, I’ve, like, got, like, tears in my eyes right now.

Ms. Wendell: I read this question and I teared up.

Ms. Maas: Yeah.

Ms. Wendell: Now, her question is, do you know anyone who acts like Rhys in real life?

[Laughter]

Ms. Wendell: I know there are wonderful men out there, but Rhys is the best hero I’ve ever read, because he works so well with Feyre, so well, like their plans to save the world, and he encourages her at all costs. It’s in just the way she needs him to. Are there heroes that inspired Rhys, anyone in real life?

And if you know one, I can connect you with Stephanie; you could set her up.

[Laughter]

Ms. Maas: So one of the things that I constantly, I constantly get asked is whether my husband was the inspiration for Rhys, ‘cause my husband is, you know, tall, dark, and handsome, but also incredibly supportive of me and my career, and I always tell readers, like, no. Like, my husband does not have wings. He did not inspire Rhys, but, I mean, like, no.

Ms. Wendell: [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: Like, literally, like, like, I mean, like, we found, like, pictures on Instagram where, like, people, like, snapped photos of him, like, at an event, like, you know, waiting, like, you know, off to the side of the stage and were like, you know, real-life Rhys! or something like that. And people, so people refuse to believe that Josh, like, is not the real-life Rhys, but in some ways he is. I mean, I gave him Rhys’s birthday, or I gave Rhys his birthday, just as a, like, nod to the readers who have – [laughs] –

Ms. Wendell: Aw!

Ms. Maas: – as – but, I mean, I, I think I’m able to write about that kind of relationship because that’s the kind of relationship I have with my husband, where he is so incredibly – I’m going to cry talking about this, but he’s so incredibly supportive of me and my career but also me as a human being, and, I mean, I couldn’t do any of what I do without him. He’s, he’s my, my manager, but also, I mean, he takes care of our son full-time, but he’s also my, my rock. He’s the person that, you know, if something good, something bad happens, he is that first call I make. You know, he’s the person, or if I see a, an article on the New York Times, like, I call him up and tell him about it. You know, like, he, he is my best friend, and I know a lot of people say that about their spouses, but he is literally my, my best friend, and, you know, we will laugh until we’re crying at times, you know, over some stupid joke or, you know, something our son does, and yeah, so, I mean, Rhys wasn’t specifically inspired by my husband, but I think that I was able to understand that kind of relationship and have Feyre and Rhys develop that kind of relationship because of what I’m so blessed to have in my life. And unfortunately Josh does not have any brothers.

[Laughter]

Ms. Maas: He does not even have, like, a, a single, like, an unmarried cousin that I could recommend. I think all of his friends are married – [laughs] – so unfortunately I got the only one! But, I mean, I, you know, I think that’s, it’s so important to find a partner, a romantic partner who is supportive of you, and, you know, Josh knows everything about me, you know, good and bad, and he has been with me on my, my worst days, and he has held my hand through so many hard and awful things that have happened in my life and, you know, never, never wavered, and he has cried with me and laughed with me, and so for all my readers, like, I hope that they, they find that person for them that, you know, that, that can be their, their best friend and their rock, and I, I think that’s part of the appeal of Rhys is that, you know, he is there for Feyre. He understands what she’s going through; he wants her to have, you know, like, you know, to obviously be his mate and his love, but he also wants her to have her own life with her own passions, and maybe subconsciously, you know, bits of my own relationship worked their way into that. I, I have not, like, analyzed every single thing that Rhys and Feyre have done and compared it to, like – [laughs] – my own life, but yeah, I think it ultimately just stems from the fact that I’m, I’m fortunate enough to have this marvelous man in, in my life that has allowed me to kind of look at relationships like Rhys and Feyre’s and, you know, kind of write, write them. And I, and I love that people, you know, I, I love that people are, like, obsessed with Rhys because I’m obsessed with Rhys?

[Laughter]

Ms. Maas: Yeah, I –

Ms. Wendell: You just writing your own catnip.

Ms. Maas: [Laughs] I basically am!

Ms. Wendell: [Laughs] Now, Taryn asked me – and I don’t know if this is a question you can answer – you use a lot of music. You’ve talked about how Crescent City was inspired by the, the Gravity soundtrack, and you have playlists. How do you discover your music? Do you sort of stumble into it, or are there pieces where you’re like, this is evoking a feeling and I want to articulate this feeling?

Ms. Maas: I mean, it’s, I have like, oh my God, like twenty thousand songs in my iTunes library? Like, I am a music junkie. I have zero musical talent.

[Laughter]

Ms. Maas: I love music. To give you an idea of how little musical talent I have, so when I was, from when I was like eleven until I was about like thirteen, fourteen, I took piano lessons, and I made, I made my parents – I didn’t make them, but I kind of did – I made them buy me a piano like when I was starting, like, like, so they invested in this piano, ‘cause I was like, yes, I really want to play piano and, like, be great at it, ‘cause I love music so much. I was fucking terrible at piano.

Ms. Wendell: Oh no!

Ms. Maas: And to give you an idea of just how bad I was, after three years of lessons with this, like, piano teacher who was – I don’t like talk-, like saying bad things about other women, ‘cause I’m all about women supporting other women, but this woman was like this old-ass witch, and not the good kind of witch that I love. Like, I think I am like a witch; like, I’ve got my –

Ms. Wendell: [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: – I’ve got my crystals; I’ve got, like, my white sage. Like, I am literally, I’m, like, full-on, like, witch, and I love witches, but this woman was like the Wicked Witch of the West. Like, she was so, such a nasty, mean old woman, I hated, I hated her, I hated going to lessons with her, and after three years with this old-ass – [laughs] – cranky woman, we had this recital at Stein- – I grew up in New York City, and we had this recital at Steinway Hall in New York, where all –

Ms. Wendell: Oh, as you do! No pressure!

Ms. Maas: As we do, and all of her students came to do the recital, and I was fucking terrified, and it got worse, because these, you know, seven-year-olds were going up and playing, like, you know, pieces by Chopin, and I get up –

Ms. Wendell: Of course!

Ms. Maas: – I get up to do my piece for the recital, and do you know what I played in front of all these people and these talented kids? I played “My Heart Will Go On” from Titanic.

[Laughter]

Ms. Maas: And I fucked up half the song.

Ms. Wendell: Nooo! No, no, no!

Ms. Maas: My parents just, like, sunk down into their seats. I mean, this was, like, during the full Titanic craze, ‘cause, like, I mean, I, like, I saw Titanic like three times in theaters and would cry myself to sleep over Jack dying. Like, I was so obsessed, and I, like, mangled the song. So yeah, I did not play, like, Chopin or, like, anything fancy. I played “My Heart Will Go On.” And so, and after that I never had a single piano lesson. [Laughs] My parents got rid of the piano.

Ms. Amanda: Parents are like, might as well just pack it in. I think we’re done here. [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: We’re, we’re done here. We’re done. Yeah, so, despite that, I love music. I love classical music; I love, you know, like, literally every kind of music. I mean, there’s always music playing in my house when I’m working out, and the stuff that I usually listen to when I’m writing is mostly movie scores that I, usually from movies that I have, you know, watched, but also just from some composers that I know I, I love, and I’ll, you know, listen to a soundtrack. But I also, like, you know, listen to, I guess contemporary, like modern music while I’m writing as well. But yeah, I mean, the music, I, I, I mostly, like, I, it’s weird for me to write a scene without music playing. Like, if I write a scene in silence, it’s very bizarre to me, ‘cause usually music kind of provides the mood, the, I don’t know, like, some of the action maybe. I think my thing with movie scores is that there’s, like, an inherent storytelling in the music itself, ‘cause it is literally providing, you know, the, the background to the story that is being told, so there’s something that, you know, connects with my creative brain with that kind of music. But I mean, I also, I just listen to everything. I mean, like, right now, like, I mean, my favorite band is Chvrches? I don’t know if you ever heard of that band; they’re like –

Ms. Wendell: Yes, absolutely.

Ms. Maas: That’s, like, Chvrches is my favorite band, but then I’m also, like, super into, like, Kacey Musgraves and Creedence Clearwater Revival. Like, I mean, like, I’m into that –

Ms. Amanda: [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: – music and then, like, you know, Beethoven and Tchaikovsky and, like, I listen to, like, everything, and I, I connect to, like, almost every single kind of music, and when I can be listening to, you know, the radio in the car, and I’ll hear a song, and it will remind me so much of my characters or just, like, sprout this idea in my head that I’ll have to, like, take a, like, screenshot of the, the song, so I don’t forget, but then also, like, you know, just write down ideas in that moment. Like, there was a scene in Heir of Fire from the Throne of Glass books that was inspired by Imagine Dragons’ “Radioactive,” and when I first heard the, that song on the, the radio, like, I literally saw this scene play out in my head, and like, like, it’s this weird thing that I can’t explain, ‘cause I got no musical talent, I can’t sing, I literally can’t do anything, like, with music, but something about it just clicks with whatever brain chemistry is going on with the ideas and creates these stories in my head.

Ms. Wendell: Do you have any favorite film soundtracks?

Ms. Maas: Oh man. There are a lot. I’m a big fan of the Jaws soundtrack, which –

Ms. Amanda: Yeah!

Ms. Wendell: Ah, good one!

Ms. Maas: People have, like, this weird, like, they think it’s just that, like, duhh-duh, duhh-duh –

Ms. Wendell: Yep.

Ms. Maas: – but the music, the score itself is actually brilliant, and, I mean, I am such a fucking nerd. Like, I mean, I could tell you how the Jaws soundtrack was inspired by Stravinsky’s Rite of Spring and, like, the certain notes, like, that, and, like, Bambi, like, the Bambi soundtrack, like, also, like, Rite of Spring, like, you know, it’s sort of like, like, there, like, a lot of the movie soundtracks, like, you can hear the influence of, like, classical composers in those that have built these iconic, like, iconic scores. I mean, in, if you watch Bambi, like, the, the music that plays when the hunters, like when man comes, is, like, so similar to, like, you know, some of the, like, Jaw-, like, J-, with Jaws, like later on, like, it’s like that, like, similar, like, kind of two-note, like, pacing thing?

 And yeah, other favorite soundtracks: the Gravity soundtrack, the, like, I also love the Signs soundtrack, like from, like, the M. Night Shyamalan film?

Ms. Amanda: Oh, that movie fucked me up!

Ms. Maas: I love that movie. If that movie’s on TV I always watch it. Like, that is, like, I love, like, disaster movies? Like, I have watched San Andreas like –

[Laughter]

Ms. Maas: – at least fifteen times, and it’s a terrible – like, I love The Rock, I love him, like, I love The Rock, but that is a bad fucking movie, and if it is on TV, I will watch the shit out of it. Like, it was on TV last week, and, like, I just put it on and watched the whole – like, with commercials! Like – [laughs] – I just fucking love disaster movies! Independence Day is one of my – oh, another favorite soundtrack: Independence Day. But, like, I’m not, like, that’s one of my favorite movies ever. Like, I love, like, I guess, seeing American cities get destroyed by horrible things. I don’t know. I just –

Ms. Wendell: [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: – I love – that was a joke, to any readers. I really don’t want that to ever happen to anybody. But I don’t know, I love disaster films, and, I mean, Twister was on the other night, and, like, that –

Ms. Wendell: Oh!

Ms. Maas: – like, I, I’ve seen that movie like twenty-five – like, Twister, I think, is actually a fantastic movie. [Laughs] I –

Ms. Wendell: Sarah, I wrote, I wrote a college paper about Twister.

Ms. Maas: [Gasps] Oh my, could we be friends forever?

Ms. Wendell: Yes! Okay, I love that movie so much I could quote it, and I wrote a whole paper about identical scenes that take place in multiple places, like when you, when you, when you first see her and her mom and her dad –

Ms. Maas: Mm-hmm?

Ms. Wendell: – later on there’s a, there’s a scene of another family, and they’re all dressed the exact same way, so she keeps seeing her family in different parts of the film. I wrote a whole paper about that motif? I love that movie!

Ms. Maas: I, oh my God, that – okay –

Ms. Wendell: Ahhh!

Ms. Maas: – I, like, while we were doing this crazy virtual signing, we had, like, you know, the TV on to pass the time, and I put on Twister, ‘cause it, it was, you know, I, I needed to watch it, and my father-in-law was like, I was like, have you ever seen this movie? And he was like, no. Like, I haven’t really?

Ms. Wendell: [Laughs] You cow!

Ms. Maas: And then, like, I was like, it’s, it’s the best, but then, like, my mother-in-law was like, we saw this in theaters. Like, don’t you remember? He had no memory of it, and then, like, I was like, I kept watching, like, his face to see, like, if he was into it. No.

[Laughter]

Ms. Maas: I mean, granted, we were, like, you know, packaging books and, like, putting, like, like, postage on, like, you know, the boxes and everything, so it wasn’t really like sit-down watching, but, like, he just, like, I don’t know. Like, I thought at least when, like, the sister tornados were coming, like, he was into it, but no.

Ms. Amanda: Were you, like, nudging him like, watch this part, this is the part, this is a good part?

Ms. Maas: Yeah, oh, like, I kept making little, like, subtle little comments, being like, ooh, this is a good scene.

[Laughter]

Ms. Maas: But no. No, it –

Ms. Wendell: And, I mean, let’s be real: Cary Elwes has the best worst Southern accent –

Ms. Maas: Oh my God!

Ms. Wendell: – in the whole world.

Ms. Maas: [Laughs] I still get, like, sad when he dies, but, like, then I’m also like, yeah, you fucker, like, that’s what you get.

Ms. Wendell: [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: Fuck him.

Ms. Amanda: He definitely made some strides in the Southern accent department. He was in the recent season of Stranger Things, and he played an evil mayor, and his Southern accent is better.

Ms. Maas: I forgot he was in that!

Ms. Amanda: Yeah!

Ms. Maas: Oh, I love Stranger Things. The third season, I fucking love that season.

Ms. Amanda: Uma Thurman’s daughter is a treasure.

Ms. Maas: Oh my God! She –

Ms. Wendell: [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: Oh my God. Like, I fucking  –

Ms. Amanda: [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: – that she was my favorite part of the whole season, and I mean, like, I just, she’s such a fantastic actress, and I loved that character, and I loved that whole, like, the, the Scoop Troop? Is that what they call that? Like –

Ms. Amanda: Yeah! [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: – that whole bond? Like, I, that was my favorite part of the whole thing. Like, I literally have chills right now, and I don’t know why.

Ms. Amanda: But –

[Laughter]

Ms. Maas: From talking about Uma Thurman’s daughter.

Ms. Amanda: There’s the scene where, where Dustin sings The Neverending Story theme song?

Ms. Maas: Oh, my God!

Ms. Amanda: I was in tears with –

Ms. Maas: I thought that was, like, my – okay, okay, The Neverending Story –

Ms. Amanda: [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: – That was, like, one of those movies that I grew up with, so it just, like, and I used to sing that song, like, you know, to myself, like, obsessively, and so seeing that, I was like, this is my life. Like, this, like, level of humiliation and awkwardness, and that was just so brilliant. I, yeah, I, I loved it. I, I, like, I want the next season immediately. [Laughs]

Ms. Wendell: I feel like we’ve hit this amazing nerd-ception at this moment?

[Laughter]

Ms. Wendell: This is like the most fun; I’m having the greatest time. Oh my gosh.

Ms. Maas: Me too!

Ms. Wendell: Oh, I’m so glad! Okay. So I’ve already, you, we’ve already talked a lot. One of the questions I like to ask when we do an interview, I like to ask, you know, what you do to look after your creative self, and we’ve already talked about therapy and exercise –

Ms. Maas: Mm-hmm.

Ms. Wendell: – music and, you know, having, having children and wonderful, supportive spouses. Is there anything you want to add to that list? Or have we kind of covered that?

Ms. Maas: Yeah, I mean, the only thing I like to do is I act-, I like to take time off from writing every now and then to just let my brain rest and, I don’t know. I mean, like, I, I fully believe in, like, making sure that I have a life, and that’s something I’ve struggled with, ‘cause, you know, juggling multiple books a year requires a lot of time. And so I’m still learning, you know, how to balance being Gollum in my cave, unwashed –

Ms. Wendell: [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: – and alone, with, you know, getting out into the world and seeing things, and it’s funny, ‘cause usually if I get stuck writing some-, like, you know, writing a scene, if I go take a walk, it’ll just, like, being out in the world will just free something in my brain.

Ms. Wendell: Oh yeah.

Ms. Maas: I also take a lot of, like, baths. Like, meditative baths where I, like, put on, like, Tibetan singing bowl music, and I light candles, and –

Ms. Amanda: Sarah is anti-bath. I am pro-bath.

Ms. Wendell: And I’m not anti-bath because I don’t like the concept of being in warm water; I actually love it. I just get cold so easily that I can never stay warm? However –

Ms. Maas: Well, I –

Ms. Wendell: – I will park my ass in the shower for a year.

Ms. Maas: Do you know – okay, so recently – this is the stupidest story of all time.

[Laughter]

Ms. Wendell: We’re here for it! Please tell!

Ms. Maas: I’m like – okay, so recently, so one night my son had his bath, and then my husband, we put him to bed, and then immediately after, my husband jumped into the shower, and we’ve got one of those showers with, like, a rain shower, then, like, jets coming out of the wall. Like, it’s awesome. So he started his shower, and then I started my bath, and, like, halfway through the tub filling up, the hot water ran out.

Ms. Amanda: Oh no!

Ms. Wendell: Nooo!

Ms. Maas: And so I got so fucking upset and mad that when my husband came out of the shower, I popped my head out of my, like, little spa bathroom – that’s what I call it. It’s not a fancy bathroom; it is literally just, like, this, like, sad tub – [laughs] – in this, like, one bathroom that no one uses? I pop my head out of the bathroom, and I was like, you motherfucker, you used up all my hot water! And then, and then he, like, looked at me just like, what? And I was like, I have no hot water for my bath! For my meditative bath! I was like, I just put in fifty dollars worth of salts and oils, and now it’s a –

Ms. Amanda: [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: – waste of all that money! And so I was like, you should go fill up some pots of water and boil them for me and put them in the tub.

Ms. Amanda: [Laughs] Oh no!

Ms. Maas: And so then, I mean, he was just like, okay. And he walked downstairs, and so then I just, like sat in the bathroom, like, with my candles and, like, Tibetan, like, singing bowls going in the –

Ms. Amanda: Just simmering in your own, like, anger!

Ms. Maas: I was just, like, so mad, and then, and, like, I just was like, I, I climbed into my lukewarm tub, and I was like, this fucking sucks, this motherfucker. Twenty minutes later, like, there’s a knock on the bathroom door, and I’m like, what the fuck? I’m like, I just like, I was like, I told you not to disturb me during my bath time! I climb out of the bath, and then there he is with a giant, like, lobster pot full of hot water.

Ms. Amanda: [Laughs]

Ms. Wendell: Oh!

Ms. Maas: And he literally went and did it for me, and I was like, I am such a fucking piece of shit! Like –

[Laughter]

Ms. Maas: – I was, I was joking! I was like, I was joking about boiling water for me! I was like, oh my God! Like, he literally boils it in our kitchen and then, like, carried it all the way upstairs, and so then, like, he, like, dumped it into the tub, and then, like, it was enough hot water by that point, the hot, like, more hot water had actually filled up in the house, so I was able to have my hot bath, and then when I came downstairs, he already had a second pot boiling for me!

Ms. Amanda: [Laughs] Oh!

Ms. Maas: I was just like, oh my God, like, I am such, like, a terrible human.

Ms. Amanda: You’re like, I am a garbage person.

Ms. Maas: I was like, I am a piece of shit. I was like, I’ve been the worst fucking person of all time. But, like, he knows how much I love my baths, so, like, and I guess he felt guilt? Like, I don’t know! I’m a monster! Like –

[Laughter]

Ms. Maas: I’m a monster when it comes to my baths. Yeah, so, that is my bath story. I immediately regret telling that story, ‘cause it makes me look like an awful person, and my husband is obviously a saint for putting up with me? But I take my baths, like, very serious-, like maybe a little too seriously. But that’s, you know, I kind of, when I’m lying in the bath, like, sweating it out with my, like, beautiful salts and oils and, like, my music going and the candles going, like, I don’t know, there’s some, like, it’s like a whole ritual that I have that’s like an unwinding of the day, and I do some of my, my meditation in the bath, and I don’t know, I just find it a nice way for me to unwind, and I, I mean, I’ve started doing yoga recently too, and I actually fricking love that. I never thought I would say that in a million fucking years, but –

[Laughter]

Ms. Maas: – but I love yoga! Just ‘cause I think it is, at least for my creative brain, a time for my creative brain to almost turn off, and the act of breathing and focusing on, like, what I am doing with my body and being present in every motion, just because, like, I have, like, my hamstrings are so fucking tight that I need all of my concentration just to, like, lift my leg towards the ceiling! You know, like, that is good for me, to, to –

Ms. Amanda: See, I, I love yoga. I can conk out in child’s pose? Like, I will fall right asleep. Like, head to the mat, I’m out, but, like – [laughs] – during other poses, it’s like, be present! But, like, my mind wanders? It’s like –

Ms. Maas: Yeah.

Ms. Amanda: – do they have condoms for micropenises? Like, it’s just like this weird –

Ms. Wendell: [Laughs]

Ms. Amanda: – brain spiral of, like, things I’m going to Google when I get out of here.

[Laughter]

Ms. Maas: Oh my God! Well, that’s, I usually, like, I usually have to, like, check my email like five times before I begin, like, yoga or exercise, just to make sure, like, I’m not, like, missing anything, and then, like, once, once I start, like, I just, I forget, and that’s, and that’s, like, that’s what I found that I, find, like, very addictive and I love is the being able to forget about everything else, but then my, my mind does wander. Not to condoms for micro-

Ms. Amanda: [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: Oh, we were, like, having a, I feel like my family, like me and my in-laws and husband were talking about someone, like, literally last night who had an inverted penis? I don’t even know. Like, this is how much –

Ms. Amanda: [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: – my, like, me and my husband and, like, his parents, like, we are like ev-, like, I shouldn’t even –

Ms. Amanda: How do they feel about the sexytimes in the books then?

Ms. Maas: Oh, well, the first, when my, my mother-in-law has read, like, you know, all my books, and when she read ACoTaR the first time, the, the first thing she asked me was, were these sex scenes inspired by you and Josh?

Ms. Amanda: [Laughs]

Ms. Wendell: [Gasps] Noooo!

Ms. Maas: It was like, oh my God, you’re talking about your son, first of all, and no! Like, no. I’m not, like, banging him and taking notes on, like, you know, positions! And then –

Ms. Wendell: Hang on, honey, let me grab a pen!

Ms. Maas: Yeah. I, but, like, I just, so she, I mean, yeah, she’s, she’s cool with them.

Ms. Wendell: Oh!

Ms. Maas: Thankfully, she has not asked me that question since then, but, you know –

Ms. Wendell: Oh!

Ms. Maas: – that was, like, but that, that was, like, my first book with an actual, like, sex, like, on-the-page sex scene in it, so I guess, like, people, a lot of my family had a lot of questions for me.

[Laughter]

Ms. Amanda: Did you have like a, like a press conference for your family? [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: Yeah, Thanksgiving, I got up and made a speech.

Ms. Wendell: Game on. I always ask this question.

Ms. Maas: All right.

Ms. Wendell: What books that you’ve enjoyed do you want to tell people about? Give us all your romance recs; tell us all the books.

Ms. Maas: Oh man. Okay. Books that I would recommend to anyone, I mean, if you like YA, I read this book called Serpent & Dove by Shelby Mahurin.

Ms. Amanda: Ooh, that’s a good one!

Ms. Maas: Yeah, where that’s like a, like a hate-to-love romance and, like, really cool worldbuilding. Like, it’s about, like, witches and, like, the elite witch hunters who are sworn to kill them and, like, a, a witch in hiding gets married to one of these witch hunters, so it’s like a marriage of convenience type plot, and he has no idea that she’s a witch, and, like, if, if she’s found out, like, he has to kill her? And so they, like, you know, slowly fall in, like, two enemies slowly fall in love, and I just, like, I got that, an ARC of that book, and I, you know, it arrived on my doorstep, and I meant just to skim the first, you know, paragraph, like, as I open the package, and then, you know, jump ahead and it’s one in the morning, and I haven’t put the book down.

Ms. Wendell: Oops!

Ms. Maas: It was, I loved that book. I mean, I love anything by Nalini Singh, like her Guild Hunters series, her –

Ms. Wendell: So good.

Ms. Maas: – Psy-Changeling books. She has a new, like, a new thriller, A Madness of Sunshine that’s, like – she’s so fucking talented. I, I, like, I want everyone to read all of Nalini Singh’s books, like, ‘cause I think, I mean, her worldbuilding, brilliant. I mean, J. R. –

Ms. Amanda: Please tell me you’ve read Ilona Andrews.

Ms. Maas: Yes, the Magic, I’ve read the Magic Bites, the Kate Daniels –

Ms. Amanda: You need to read the Hidden Legacy series. It’s like –

Ms. Maas: Yeah?

Ms. Amanda: – magical Houses set in urban fantasy Houston.

Ms. Maas: Oh my G- – okay, yes, yes. [Laughs] I am here for that; I will add that to the list.

Ms. Amanda: [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: Who else? I mean, Karen Marie Moning’s Fever series is one of my favorite series ever. Mac, the main character’s evolution from this Southern, you know, party-girl-esque person to this badass warrior is probably my favorite, like, character arc of all time. I just recently reread the Wallflowers series by Lisa –

Ms. Amanda: Oh! Do you have a favorite?

Ms. Maas: I don’t know. Maybe the, is it the Devil –

Ms. Amanda and Wendell: Devil in Winter –

Ms. Amanda: – is, like, the standout favorite.

Ms. Maas: Yeah. I mean, that, that pro-, I mean, that, yeah. That one, I think, is my favorite. That was, like, when I, like, when I wanted, when I decided to reread them, it was because I wanted to get to that book – [laughs] – again. But I love all of them. I mean, I, I devoured the series so fast the first time that I think I missed a lot of the female empowerment elements of it? And then when I read it the second time I was like, damn, I mean, this is just, like, brilliant, and I, I just rec-, I moved into a new house in the past two years, but again, Gollum writing in my cave, I never, like, go out, so I, I just recently met two of my neighbors who are also moms, and they love to read, and so I was, we went out for drinks and I was, like, gushing to them about the Wallflowers books, and I just got, like, a text from one of them being like, I’m already on book three!

Ms. Wendell: Yes!

Ms. Amanda: [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: Yeah, ‘cause –

Ms. Wendell: Well done!

Ms. Maas: Yeah, so I’m, like, excited to, like spread the word about, ‘cause, like, she had never read historical rom- – she’s read his-, like, historical books but, like, never –

Ms. Wendell: Mm-hmm.

Ms. Maas: – historical romance, and I was like, oh honey, like, welcome to this amazing, amazing world. Yeah, and what else did I read recently? Oh, I read a book – I mean, this wasn’t, like, recent. This just shows you, like, how little reading I’ve done lately. Evvie Drake Starts Over? Is that – Ee-vee Drake, Ee-Vee Drake starts over?

Ms. Wendell: Yes!

Ms. Maas: I act-, I loved that book. I, I love that – there’s something, like, very cozy about that book which I can’t –

Ms. Wendell: Yes!

Ms. Maas: I mean, I love those books where it’s like, I don’t know, I just feel, like, cozy reading it and like you can curl up in bed and read it and, like, I don’t know. I, I, I actually want to read that book again just ‘cause I loved it so much.

[music]

Ms. Wendell: And that brings us to the end of this episode. Thank you, thank you, thank you to Sarah J. Maas for hanging out with us and having such an incredibly thoughtful and wonderful conversation. I keep using the word wonderful, and that’s the best one I can come up with.

If you would like to find her, you can find her at her website, sarahjmaas – M-A-A-S – dot com [sarahjmaas.com]. On Instagram she’s @therealsjmaas, and you can find out upcoming tour information at worldofsarahjmaas.com/events. I will have links to all of these places in the show notes at smartbitchestrashybooks.com/podcast.

If you want to get in touch with me, I’m at [email protected], and if you would like to join our Patreon and help make sure that every episode is transcribed and get early heads up about nifty interviews like this one, have a look at patreon.com/SmartBitches.

As always, I end every episode with a terrible, terrible joke, and I really like this one, which means it’s terrible. Like, it’s really, really bad. You ready? Here we go:

Did you hear about the new band called Duvet?

Yeah! Duvet: they’re a cover band.

[Laughs] It’s so stupid! I love it! And you know what? Duvet is a great name for a band. Thank you to toocooltosocialize for that terrible, terrible joke. Duvet! [Laughs more] It’s a cover band! I am the most easily amused person, I swear.

On behalf of everyone here, including my dog, who has been thankfully very quiet while I did this, we wish you the very best of reading. Have a great weekend, and we will see you back here next week.

Smart Podcast, Trashy Books is part of the Frolic Podcast Network. You can find more outstanding podcasts to listen to at frolic.media/podcasts.

[outstanding music]

[wait for it]

Ms. Wendell: All right, I’m now recording our conversation. Do I have your consent to record you?

Ms. Maas: Yes, you do.

Ms. Amanda: Yeah.

Ms. Wendell: Thank you! Hey, Amanda, I can record you, right?

Ms. Amanda: Yeah. Yes, you can. [Laughs]

Ms. Wendell: I, I figured you were fine with it ‘cause we’ve done this before.

Okay. I am so excited to talk to you, oh my gosh! Levitating.

Ms. Maas: [Laughs] Oh, this is awesome! I’m really excited.

Ms. Wendell: Oh, thank you! That, that is, that is so incredible. When, when we heard from your publicist, I was like, holy crap! Seriously?!

Ms. Maas: [Laughs]

Ms. Wendell: Although maybe, maybe I should make it a goal to have as many excellent Sarahs on the podcast in a year as I can?

Ms. Maas: The year of Sarahs?

Ms. Amanda: That’s what I was thinking!

Ms. Wendell: Heh!

Ms. Amanda: Like the year of Penny from Happy Endings, if anyone has watched that? [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: No, I –

Ms. Wendell: Have you, have you thought about changing your name, Amanda?

Ms. Amanda: Well, I have a cousin named Sarah –

Ms. Maas: Oh.

Ms. Wendell: That works!

Ms. Amanda: – and I was very upset growing up because, like, the biblical meanings, like, Amanda means beloved, and Sarah means, like, princess –

Sarahs: Oh yeah!

Ms. Amanda: – and I was fucking pissed!

[Laughter]

Ms. Amanda: I was like, I want to be a princess! What is this?!

Ms. Wendell: Sorry.

Annie: Woof-woof, woof, woof!

Ms. Maas: Sorry, there’s a, the dog, the dog is barking. Sorry, she’s –

Ms. Amanda: It’s fine. We have animal noises on the podcast all the time.

Ms. Maas: Okay! [Laughs]

Ms. Wendell: Oh yeah, my dog will definitely bark, and what happens is, the animals get a line in the, in the transcript, so Annie will have “Annie: Bark!” So it’s great! We love it.

Ms. Maas: Okay.

Ms. Wendell: Animal noises, if the garbage truck shows up, like, the UPS person arrives, it’s great, no worries!

Ms. Maas: Okay, fantastic!

Ms. Wendell: Okay, so now that we have established what a professional high-grade operation I am running here –

[Laughter]