We talk about writing vampire murder mystery, and writing what she refers to as an “Id book.” We also discuss the empowerment and feminism inherent in becoming consumed by something we love, like a book or a series of books – especially when it’s something we don’t have permission or approval to be consumed by, mwahahaha.
We cover craft, character construction, conflict vs puzzle plots, fashion, food, and more writing – there’s a lot!
CW/TW: Discussion of Kavanaugh hearings, assault, violence, and plot spoilers from 32:00 to 36:00.
Music: https://www.purple-planet.com
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This Episode's Music
The music in this episode is from Purple-Planet, and this track is “Infinite Ocean.”
Transcript
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[music]
Sarah Wendell: Well, hello there, friends. How are you today? I hope you’re doing well. Are you ready for a podcast? Good, ‘cause I have one! This is episode number 393 of Smart Podcast, Trashy Books. I’m Sarah Wendell from Smart Bitches, and today I am talking with New York Times bestselling author Renee Ahdieh. We are going to be talking about vampire murder mysteries, which are three words that I didn’t realize I was totally into, but I’m totally into them. Her book The Beautiful is out, and The Damned will be out in a few months. So we are going to talk about writing what she refers to as her “id book.” We also discuss the empowerment and feminism inherent in becoming consumed by something we love, like a book or a series of books. We are going to talk about craft, the construction of character, conflict versus puzzle plots, fashion, food, and more writing; there’s a lot to discuss here.
I do want to issue a very important warning: at about thirty-two minutes to thirty-six minutes [32:00-36:00] there is a discussion of the Kavanaugh hearings, assault, violence, and some plot spoilers, so once you get to around thirty-two minutes [32:00], if that’s something you want to skip over, skip ahead to minute thirty-six [36:00] and you should be in the clear.
Now, if you would like to email me, I would love to hear from you. You can reach us at [email protected], or you can leave a message and tell me a really bad joke at 1-201-371-3272. I do love hearing from you, so thank you in advance for taking the time to tell me things.
This week’s episode and every episode receives a transcript, and it is hand-compiled by garlicknitter. Thank you, garlicknitter! The transcript this week is being brought to you by our Patreon community. If you have supported the show with a monthly pledge, thank you. You are making every show accessible to everyone, and you keep the show going each and every week. If you would like to join our Patreon community, have a look at patreon.com/SmartBitches. Pledges start at one whole dollar a month, and every pledge makes a deeply, deeply appreciated difference.
Hello to our newest Patreon members, Lisa, Nancy, and Sleon – I think I’m saying that correctly; probably not – and I have a compliment this week!
To Kate K: There is a team of secret biographers – in a non-creepy way – chronicling your life for future generations, because the actions you take every day tell an incredibly inspiring story. So thank you.
If you would like a compliment of your very own, have a look at patreon.com/SmartBitches.
As usual, I will have a complete list of books and things that we talk about in this episode in the show notes at smartbitchestrashybooks.com/podcast, and at the end of the episode I will have a truly, truly terrible joke.
But now, let’s get started. On with the podcast.
[music]
Renee Ahdieh: Absolutely. So hello, my name is Renee Ahdieh. I am an author of books, mostly for Young Adult readers, but I have a large crossover audience as well. As someone who is in her thirties, I’ve been in love with Young Adult books since before I probably should have been in love with what would be considered Young, Young Adult books. And –
Sarah: [Laughs]
Renee: – I’m a, a New York Times bestselling author of books, and –
Sarah: Congrats!
Renee: – that – [laughs] – it’s always awkward to introduce yourself with that, but you know, whatever you’re going to do. So I have written three series. My first one is The Wrath & the Dawn and The Rose & the Dagger, which takes place in a fantasy of ancient Persia; and the second series is Flame in the Mist and Smoke in the Sun, which takes place in a fantasy feudal Japan; and my latest series has begun with The Beautiful, which was released the beginning of October, which is a vampire murder mystery that takes place in 1872 New Orleans.
Sarah: Yes!
Renee: [Laughs]
Sarah: So first, I need to apologize, because I have been saying your surname incorrectly. I thought it was, I thought it was Ah-dee-ay, but it is Ah-dee-uh. Is that right?
Renee: It’s, yeah, yeah, it’s Akh-dee-uh. It’s a, it’s a tricky –
Sarah: Ahdieh.
Renee: It’s, it’s funny, though, ‘cause, like, the way you said it is also lovely, so – [laughs].
Sarah: Oh! Well, I want to be correct. I mean, I apologize for getting it wrong before. And congratulations (a) on hitting the Times; you should absolutely own that at every opportunity –
Renee: Thank you.
Sarah: – ‘cause that’s astonishing! And (2) congratulations on The Beautiful!
Renee: Thank you so much. I really appreciate it, Sarah.
Sarah: It’s so funny when you say things like, and it’s a vampire murder mystery. I feel like, I feel like I’m being reintroduced to a, a favorite food that I’d forgotten I’d loved?
Renee: Absolutely, and –
Sarah: You know? [Laughs]
Renee: – the whole purpose behind writing this series is purely selfish, because now I can get all of these vampire books that are coming, and I’m like, give them all to me. I would love to read them; I have missed them a lot, so. [Laughs]
Sarah: And vampires work as a motif on so many levels, in horror, in romance, in mystery. It’s, it’s really like being reintroduced to something that I forgot how much I adored.
Renee: Absolutely, I couldn’t agree with you more. I mean, I fell in love with vampire books when I was twelve years old, the first time I stole a copy of Anne Rice’s Queen of the Damned from my father. So again, going back to me reading books I probably shouldn’t have been reading –
Sarah: [Laughs]
Renee: – I have zero regrets. [Laughs]
Sarah: So this book has almost a little bit of everything for every reader. You have vampires, New Orleans, food, secret societies, dressmaking, mysteries, really somewhat ambivalent or ambiguously noble characters. Can you tell me a little bit about this book?
Renee: Oh my gosh! So this is a book that I wanted to write ever since I was a teenager, and there’s so many things that have sort of woven their way into the tapestry of this novel. Just aspects of myself, aspects of the things I really enjoy. For me, often when I speak to other authors, we talk about something we coin “id books,” and I believe maybe Carrie Ryan was the first person who said that to me, and id book be-, id book being a book that is purely wish fulfillment. Every aspect of this is something that you are just like, you know, this is something I love, and I’m just going to throw it all together into, like, the wonderful –
Sarah: [Laughs]
Renee: – you know, savory rich stew, hopefully. And that’s exactly what I did with this book. I love fashion; I love food – I’m very passionate about food, especially food from all over the world – and as a child of mixed race, it was extremely important to me to make sure that I was reflecting the world in which I lived. And, you know, when I was a kid growing up, as a very avid reader, you know, there weren’t many books about kids who were, you know, multiracial, or even, for that matter, kids who were coming from marginalized backgrounds. Largely, the books –
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Renee: – I fell in love with were written by white writers about white characters, and it was never a decision for me when I started to write to sort of, you know, want to work my own personal life into the stories that I’m writing, and also I’m extremely fortunate to have around me a cast of diverse characters in my own life, which, which is, is very exciting because it’s, it’s a reflection of the world I live in and the world I hope everyone is looking to see in the future, so.
Sarah: So you took all of the things that you love about your actual world and then combined them in a world with all the things that you like reading about.
Renee: Mm-hmm!
Sarah: I love the expression “id book!”
Renee: Yes!
Sarah: That is a perfect way of putting it.
Renee: [Laughs] Well, and, and I feel like, too, it’s so much of what Twilight and a lot of these books that have sort of captured our attention within the last twenty years, especially with respect to Young Adult literature, they’re very id books, and we can debate the merits and demerits of whether or not, you know, like, like, Edward is a problematic hero or whatever, or, I mean, I just, I’m very protective of books like Twilight, and the reason is because I feel like – and this is something you definitely touch on too in your brilliant podcast – you know, like, I just think society is so quick to judge the things women love, to ju- – and especially –
Sarah: Yes.
Renee: – the things young women love. We’re so quick to denigrate it as a society, and I feel like so much of the, the flak that books like Twilight get is largely because of that, and people are ignoring, you know, that we’re being captivated by a story, and we’re being motivated to read and, and, and you know, like, take ourselves away to a different world, a different time and place or different experiences, and dream a little bit, and I think, especially in our current climate, dreaming is a must. Hoping is –
Sarah: Oh God.
Renee: So yeah. [Laughs]
Sarah: Yes! I remember reading Twilight when it was a phenomenon –
Renee: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: – and being of two, almost two minds about it. On one hand, I was like, there are some things about this I really don’t like. There are –
Renee: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: – some things about this I’m not really enjoying. Critically, I don’t like this part.
Renee: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: And then there was a part of me, my perpetual thirteen-year-old self, she was so on board with everything being said. The secret world, the secret universe, the society that you don’t get to know about until you know the secret, and the thing about books like Twilight is that once you’ve read them, you know the secret?
Renee: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: It’s like Harry Potter: once you’ve read them, you’re part of the secret world?
Renee: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: And that, that works so well as a device. When you add to it the, the fact that young women and older women liked it –
Renee: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: – then it became a problem. You’re entirely right about that.
Renee: Absolutely! And I think, too, people are intimidated by something all-consuming if, if they haven’t given women permission to be all-consumed by that, and historically –
Sarah: Yes.
Renee: – we’ve told women, you may be all-consumed by, you know, very, very feminine things, by getting married, by having a baby. This is not something you’re allowed to be all-consumed by. It’s alarming, because it, it makes people believe – especially people in power, specifically men in power – believe that they could lose control. And, and I, it’s one of the reasons why I love books so much, why I love stories so much, because there was such an all-consuming aspect to this. And again, we can have really great discussions about the merits and demerits of certain character aspects, choices that were made by the author, but we can’t ignore the fact that it, what it, it tapped into all of us, irrespective of our age, is this sort of, that all-consuming nature of love, the all-consuming nature of being a teenager and, you know, really not being jaded by things that have happened in the world that have sort of made us to have to take a step back and not experience wonder. And I, that’s one of the reasons I really enjoy writing Young Adult fiction, because I’m allowed to do that. I’m allowed to step back. I have permission to not be jaded –
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Renee: – about the things that are wonderful in life.
Sarah: One of the downsides of recording audio only. The upside is that I usually get a better recording, ‘cause my computer system’s not trying to transmit video. The downside being, you can’t see me nodding emphatically –
Renee: [Laughs]
Sarah: – yes! That is such a perfect way to put that, the idea that you’re not permitted to be consumed by something unless it’s already established as something –
Renee: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: – you’re allowed to fully ga-, engage in?
Renee: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: And, you know, that’s why things like cosplay and comic cons are so alarming –
Renee: Yeah.
Sarah: – because you’re not supposed to nerd out and be passionate about things that aren’t condoned for you –
Renee: Absolutely!
Sarah: – and vampire romance definitely in the not-condoned department.
Renee: But it’s, and, and yet, it’s, it’s like whenever my, my father told me I couldn’t read certain books, obviously –
Sarah: Oh yeah!
Renee: – those were the ones I was going toward, so I, I almost, I applaud, like, people who sort of embrace, like, even in the banned book culture, ‘cause that’s something we talk about a lot in Young Adult literature, often books –
Sarah: Yes.
Renee: – that we, that we love and are really passionate about and are incredibly important pieces of work that get banned, and, and then I love watching authors be like, great! I’m on the banned book list. That’s not going to hurt anything. [Laughs]
Sarah: Yeah. Thank you. That, that is really, really great. If you could do it again?
Renee: Yes, exactly. Oh, I’m –
Sarah: My next book?
Renee: Oh yes, exactly, exactly. Yes, ban them all, please! I would love to have that logo associated with my name. It’s, it’s –
Sarah: [Laughs]
Renee: – it’s, it’s, one time I had this reviewer, I can’t remember for which book it was, who said that the, the romance was very titillating, and they meant to say it in a sort of critical way? And I’m like, oh, mistake. That, ‘cause that would, even if I were twelve, thirteen years old, I’d be like, oh! Yes!
[Laughter]
Renee: I will read this book!
Sarah: I used to joke that if I ever sold reviews, if I ever charged for reviews, the only reviews I would charge astonishing amounts of money for are reviews that say, and this book had too much sex in it.
Renee: [Laughs] Because, like, again, that’s for me! I’m like, I bought it; thank you. That ins- –
Sarah: Yeah, one, one click.
Renee: I bought it. Yeah. [Laughs]
Sarah: So vampire romance has such a wonderfully rich history, in YA, in romance, in literature that is read a lot by women and girls. What led you into vampire romance for this book? I know it’s your id book and I know it’s the book that you longed to write. What was it that grabbed you about vampire romance and the world that you created?
Renee: Well, I really love the way you phrased an earlier question about me sort of exploring, like, morally ambiguous characters and morally ambiguous situations. I think that that’s the term you used, and, and it’s something I really enjoy. I call it the morally, the gray spaces. I’m really sort of captivated by them, and going back to what I discussed earlier about all-consuming, like emotions, all-consuming experiences, for me the sort of quintessential things in life are love and death. They’re the things that are all-consuming for so many of us, and you can’t really have one without the other, and in my mind, I think it’s mostly because the idea that our time here is finite makes everything we experience and everything we yearn for feel that much more, you know, like, just real and urgent, and when you’re dealing with vampires, love and death is, of course, like, what get in any sort of literature, I’ve been a huge fan of Gothic literature since I was a kid; you know, Frankenstein, obviously Anne Rice, I’ve read every single obscure vampire book out there, including George R. R. Martin’s Fevre Dream, which I will contend is the best thing he’s written.
Sarah: [Laughs]
Renee: I, I think that love and death are, of course, all-consuming, and then the question becomes, when you’re dealing with immortal creatures who consume blood to live – the blood of the living to, to continue existing, I should say – can love ex-, exist beyond time, and does, does anything matter if you have a, an infinite amount of time to experience life? And, and so I really enjoy taking these creatures – at least in my worlds, and I’ve seen them in a lot of, of other vampire worlds – where the immortal beings are that much more consumed by love and death than – and that’s the thing that I loved about Anne Rice’s books: you have these creatures who are, you know, there’s, there seems to be limit to the things they can do and the things they can achieve, and yet they’re still so desperately attached to their mortality and still want to experience very basic human feelings and, and experiences, and I really enjoy that.
Sarah: And it’s interesting to think about, you know, how are your priorities going to change if you’re not going to die, provided you find enough blood to keep you going?
Renee: Exactly.
Sarah: What actually becomes important? It’s not money, after a while.
Renee: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: It’s, it becomes power and secrecy –
Renee: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: – and protecting your own existence.
Renee: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And the, and again, the question that I love to ask people when I’m doing panels is, if you had a chance to live forever, would you want to? And everybody’s, you know, offhand they’re like, oh, I think I would, but really think about it. Like, the idea that everybody you love, all the things that you’re passionate about, you would watch them wither before you, or you would lose sense of yourself in relation to, like, the mortal world, and you would just become – which is, is what Anne Rice talks about – sort of like a casual observer of things that you can never really be a part of. I don’t know if that’s something that people – and, and I love exploring that in this world because this world, at least the world of New Orleans, and the reason I love the city so much and chose to have the book take place there, is it, it is a world of so many, it’s, it’s a world of life and death.
Sarah: It really is.
Renee: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: And it’s, and it’s a world, especially where you’ve set the book, it’s a world that is extremely visually old. You recognize its age, and you recognize its history, but it’s also reborn, especially after Katrina, after economic downfalls, after tourism collapsed after Katrina, it is still, in a lot of ways, renewing itself as well.
Renee: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: It creates an almost magical sense that you’re no longer on the, in, on the planet, almost like when, when I was younger, I went to Alaska –
Renee: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: – and I looked at everything, and I was like, I do not believe I’m standing on the same planet that I live on.
Renee: [Laughs]
Sarah: This does not look like anything I have ever seen in my life. And I had the same sort of feeling when I was in the desert in, in Tucson. Like –
Renee: Oh, that’s so cool.
Sarah: – this does not look like my planet! And I, I had that same experience in New Orleans: I’ve never been in a place that looked like this. I’ve never been in a place that’s, that felt like this, that the smells, the unique smells of the –
Renee: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: – the city and the cooking? All of that creates an otherworldly atmosphere. What, what are some things you love about New Orleans?
Renee: Oh gosh. I mean, I, we could have a, an entire discussion podcast on this. I think –
Sarah: [Laughs]
Renee: – for, for me, obviously my introduction to New Orleans was through the, Anne, Anne Rice’s lens, and I remember sort of being entranced by the idea of it, and I have gone now about thirteen times, and it’s so fun for me to be able to travel to this city that I love so much and call it research –
Sarah: [Laughs]
Renee: – and go and eat at all of these amazing restaurants and listen to music that just takes you to another time and place. I mean, there, I was just there a couple of days ago for tour, and I went with my editor and my agent who had come to join me just for a one- or two-day stay there, and we went out to listen to some music, and just being moved to tears by, you know, just another kind of art that’s so rooted in, just so rooted in that city; so rooted, rooted in history; and so rooted in fraught aspects of history; and to watch people of, you know, all persuasions enjoying this fantastic music. It was just something to move me to tears, but I have to say probably – and I agree with you about how otherworldly it looks. I feel like there’s, there’s a mystery everywhere; there’s something sinisterly sexy about the city, its, its smells, everything about it. The food, I’m so passionate about the food.
But for me, the thing that struck me the most about New Orleans and continues to captivate me is the people. The people there are some of the warmest, most unique, most wonderful people I’ve ever met in my life, and I couldn’t really put my finger on why it was I felt comfortable there so quickly, and it took about two or three times, and I was talking to a local there who’s since become a really good friend, and she told me, she was like, well, it’s because we’re, we’ve been a majority minority city for a very long time. And I sort of sat back, and I listened and I thought, and I thought, she’s entirely correct. She was like, you don’t have to explain yourself here, and then immediately it clicked for me, because, you know, as a, as a child, my mother’s family is South Korean, my father’s family is white. When we lived in Korea, and then when we moved eventually to the US, I always felt like I was half of one thing and not enough of the other? And I always had to explain myself wherever I went. People would ask that question – and I know there’s no malice behind it, but it’s dehumanizing nonetheless to be like, what are you?
Sarah: Ooh!
Renee: Where are you from? You know, and, and it’s, it’s in, it’s a, a seemingly innocuous question, but also it’s, it’s like, a little bit like a blow to the chest? You know, I’m a human –
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Renee: – I’m from planet Earth – [laughs] – and I never ever had to explain myself in New Orleans, and I think it’s largely because, I mean, they were a port city. They were a, a major port for the slave trade. They had people coming in from Haiti, coming down from Canada, the Acadians that eventually formed the Cajun culture, and then you have this blend of cultures, too, that’s created its own unique culture, like Creole, and so much of it is because of mixing of races and mixing of cultures and heritage, and I don’t have to explain myself there.
Sarah: That’s, that’s really incredible. And it gives you a place where, because you don’t have to explain there, even though you’re a visitor –
Renee: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: – you feel at home –
Renee: Exactly.
Sarah: – which is so valuable!
Renee: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. So valuable. And so unique. I can’t really think of any place in my entire life, any city in my entire life where I have had that singular experience.
Sarah: Do you feel that way about the worlds that you create in your books? ‘Cause you’ve set your books in very different worlds. Do you feel that way about the world you create when you write?
Renee: Absolutely, and I feel like that’s – I think it’s almost, at least for me, and I can’t speak to other writers – it’s necessary for me to feel that connection. And with, with my first series, The Wrath & the Dawn and The Rose & the Dagger, that takes place in ancient Persia. My husband’s family is Persian, so that book series – not to mention the fact that it’s the book series that made my dream come true of being a published author – it’s also wonderful because it, it gave me an opportunity to really explore my husband’s culture, and his mom is someone who studied literature when she was in Iran, and they left the country, they fled the country right before the fall of the Shah. They are practitioners of the Baha’i faith, and they believe in the Baha’i faith which is considered heretical in Iran, so they would be considered –
Sarah: Yeah.
Renee: – spies of Israel. They’ve never been able to go back; my husband’s never been there. He’s the only one of his brothers who was born in the US, and, you know, again, that whole experience, because they, they were religious refugees and eventually made their way here through chain migration, it speaks so much to everything that’s going on, you know, in our country and our world right now, and it’s made me so passionate about really advocating and listening to people who are coming from these very unique experiences and wanting to give everybody, you know, like, the, the, just the grace that we, we should give to another human being, and the books themselves taught me so much about Persian culture and really broadened and deepened my understanding.
And then with Flame in the Mist, it takes place in Japan. My mother’s family is from Korea, so getting to explore an East Asian world, it felt very, very personal to me too, and I didn’t, the reason I cho-, chose Japan is because I wanted to explore a culture that I’d always kind of had some sort of connection to? We would often go there when I was younger, mostly for food, and also, you know, there’s, there’s a, there’s sort of difficult association too. My, my mother and her family lived during the Japanese occupation period, and there’s a lot of, of difficulty there too, and, and I really wanted to explore and understand more about the differences and the similarities, because I think that that was very important to me.
Sarah: With the characters in The Beautiful, you have created some really memorable people –
[Laughter]
Sarah: – between Odette and Arjun and Bastien and Celine. How did you develop them? Were, were some of them, like, really fun or more fun to write? Like, were there some that were like, my turn to talk now!
Renee: [Laughs] Definitely, but I think I, I felt very strongly about each of them, and I, I don’t really want to write a character that I feel could be throwaway, and one of the things, ‘cause I, I write from character. Primarily, that’s where I structure any narrative. I start and stop with character, and I, ‘cause I, I personally believe I can, I can watch a movie or read a book about two people locked in an elevator for the entirety of the narrative, as long as those two people are interesting, and, you know, I could watch a movie about two people who were, you know, trying to save the world, and if I don’t care about them, I unfortunately don’t care about the plot at all. So –
Sarah: [Laughs]
Renee: – it’s, it’s just, if I find a character isn’t captivating me in some way, then I know that character has to go, and it’s, it’s fun to write so many different kinds of personalities too, because I feel like I’m able to give voice to many facets of me, and, and I’m, I don’t know if that’s something other writers say, but I have, you know, like, in all of us, we contain multitudes, right? And –
Sarah: Yep.
Renee: – and trying to get to explore the, the person that I might have been as a, as a, as a teenager, which is much more like Pippa, versus the, the person I am today, which is more like Celine – Celine is the most like me of any character I’ve ever written, which was frightening and cathartic – and then, you know, getting to explore these brooding, you know, beautiful boys and, like, their, their, their pasts, especially as they pertain to their, the lives they’ve lived and the places they’ve lived and the experiences they’ve been given, it’s, it’s, it’s wonderful. It’s really wonderful. I’m getting to talk to people around me. Like I mentioned, my, our really close friends who live in India; getting to explore their culture and the things that are important to them through Arjun has been such a gift too.
Sarah: You mentioned that your stories begin and end with character.
Renee: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: So you create the characters, and the plot follows them? Is that what that means? Could you, could you explain what you mean by that?
Renee: Absolutely!
Sarah: I think that’s really interesting, ‘cause in my very, very, very, very limited experience –
Renee: [Laughs]
Sarah: – writing fiction, I need to hear the characters talking in my head before I can start writing. They need to have their own voices before I feel like I can actually sit down and write things down. So I’m curious about your take on starting with character.
Renee: I completely agree with you. I think you have to be able to hear their voices and, and – [laughs] – and I state that in as, you know –
Sarah: [Laughs]
Renee: – normal a way as possible
Sarah: When writers talk!
[Laughter]
Renee: As normal a way as possible. Well, what I do when I’m crafting the beginning of a story is I will begin with the characters, like the ones that, you know, have really gotten their voices captivated me. So the example I like to use in craft workshops is Shahrzad from The Wrath & the Dawn; that’s my first book.
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Renee: She is, she has volunteered to marry this, you know, murdering boy-king to, in an attempt to get revenge for the fact that he killed her best friend. So she’s volunteered to marry him. He is inexplicably taking new brides every night and having them murdered at dawn, and she devises this plan to stay alive – which is, again, it’s the story of Scheherazade from A Thousand and One Nights – by beginning a story and ending it on a cliffhanger in the morning and promising to continue the following evening. So, and it, that, of course that narrative captivated me because it’s discussing the power of story.
And Shahrzad, I put her name in the center of a piece of paper, so I write Shahrzad, and then I’ll put these branches going off of it, kind of like a web, and I’ll write the character traits I would like Shahrzad to embody. So for instance, Shahrzad is brave. So then I’ll construct a scene in my mind that shows rather than tells that, that Shahrzad brave, and so I think of the very first scene in The Wrath & the Dawn when she’s marching down this, this, sort of like this throne room, going towards a murderous boy-king she’s volunteered to marry with just hate and murder in her heart, and this demonstrates that she’s brave, because she’s marching towards what many people believe to be her, her inevitable death, and she’s –
Sarah: Right.
Renee: – doing it without fear and without worry. And then I do this with every single character. I construct these scenes that I believe portray that, and then I’ll start to string a chronological narrative, and when I do that I often find things that are redundant or things that overlap or a scene that can do the work of three all at once, and I’ll start to condense it until I find – and I’ll fit it into a three-act structure, which Blake Snyder’s Save the Cat! was really instrumental in helping me sort of just get the loose outlines of that –
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Renee: – but largely, it will be motivated by the way that the characters feel about certain things, because you can put characters in devastating situations, and you can put characters in, in situations that don’t necessarily look like they would be terrible on the surface, but if you’re successful at delving beneath the surface and getting toward that, the, the very common things that root us all, how we feel about things, I feel like you can write a really compelling narrative, and those are the things that I look for in the books I want to read.
Sarah: So you take the character, develop the main traits and motivations –
Renee: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: – and then make sure those things are present in what they do in the story.
Renee: Mm-hmm, exactly. So that it’s rooted first and foremost in their emotional arc.
Sarah: Right, which is my favorite thing anyway. I love internal conflict?
Renee: Me too, me too.
Sarah: It’s my favorite type of conflict.
Renee: [Laughs]
Sarah: I think this is why I’m such a sucker for any type of, like, coffee shop AU.
Renee: [Laughs]
Sarah: Like, you could take anything and stick it in a coffee shop, and I’m like, people are going to sit around talking and caffeinating. I’m here for it; tell me all your internal problems.
Zeb: Bark, bark!
Renee: It’s so true.
Sarah: Oh, dog agrees! Dog agrees.
Renee: Oh, there we go! We knew it was going to happen! Hello!
Sarah: That’s right! That’s right. Zeb agrees with coffee shop AUs. All of them are good.
Zeb: Bark, bark, bark!
Renee: [Laughs] Well, I mean, for reals, it’s one of the reasons why I love reading romance books. I mean, a huge fan of historical romance, Regency romance, and often I have people who aren’t as strong, you know, passionate about the, the genre as I am asking me, why do you keep reading the same story? And I’m personally offended immediately when they say that.
Sarah: [Laughs]
Renee: I’m like, excuse me! And then –
Sarah: Oh no!
Renee: – no, it’s, it’s not about – I mean, yes, there’s, there’s something wonderfully com-, comforting and satisfying about that inevitable HEA, the Happily Ever After, but for me it’s not about that, that journey; it’s not about that moment. It’s about how you got there and the twinges that you get sort of behind your heart when something really strikes you and really catches your attention.
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Renee: That’s what I’m looking for in any book, so yeah. [Laughs]
Sarah: Yes. Why is it always the same? It’s not, trust me. Trust me!
Renee: It’s not; it’s not always the same.
Sarah: Nope.
Renee: It’s, it’s why often some books that people are like, oh, this is so – like, I, I remember reading the, The Da Vinci Code, and that was a really, really easy read for me, and, and again, that’s another book that people really love to, you know, love and hate and love to hate, but the thing that never worked for me with that book was that I never had an emotional connection to any of the characters.
Sarah: No. And there wasn’t a lot of emotional or internal conflict.
Renee: Mm-mm, mm-mm.
Sarah: It was a puzzle.
Renee: Mm-hmm! And that’s fun –
Sarah: There was a puzzle to solve.
Renee: – super fun –
Sarah: Oh yeah!
Renee: – but, but it’s not going to be something I go back to reread or anything like that. [Laughs]
Sarah: Yeah. So your most excellent publicist, Olivia –
Renee: [Laughs] She is wonderful.
Sarah: – and also you mention that Celine is very personal, one of the most char-, most personal characters that you’ve, that you’ve written. Can you talk a little bit about why and what you loved about writing her?
Renee: Absolutely. It’s, it’s, I – so every book that I’ve written at this point, the main character they’re usually young women, because I’m writing for young adults –
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Renee: – and they’re, they’re sort of aspirational. So Shahrzad from The Wrath & the Dawn is the sixteen-year-old girl I wish I could have been. She always has a quip at the ready; she’s fiercely loyal; she’s not afraid to, like, you know, get in people’s faces, and this is who I wish I could have been when I was sixteen. And alas, I was someone who always had the retort ten minutes too late, and it was a good one!
Sarah: Yep!
Renee: But completely out of place. [Laughs] Completely out of place –
Sarah: Yep!
Renee: – and who often struggled with whether or not, you know, this was an appropriate time for my voice to be heard, and then with Mariko, who’s the main character in Flame in the Mist and Smoke in the Sun, she is this brilliant scientist and inventor, and I based a lot of her on my younger sister, who is a brilliant scientist. That is not at all my strong suit, so I, they’re, they’re –
Sarah: [Laughs]
Renee: – they’re sort of like, they’re just aspirational, and then when I started to write Celine, I had the same intention, but then I found myself drafting during the Kavanaugh hearings, and –
Sarah: Oh boy!
Renee: Yeah, and I remember having such a, like, just seething undercurrent of rage going through me like that throughout the entirety of that, and it wasn’t, I was definitely not alone. My friends, even my mom, just everybody was, we were all so effing angry, and –
Sarah: Yep.
Renee: – and I – [scoffs] – I kept thinking to myself, we’re not going to let this happen again, and when I was watching Dr. Ford testify, I remember shaking and, like, just, like, so –
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Renee: – so, like, angry, but then also so heartbroken. I remember shaking and thinking about the fact that, you know, unfortunately, three out of five women at some point in their lives, according to statistics, are going to be survivors of some form of assault, which, unfortunately, more women than it is less women. And, you know, I’m among them, and when I was writing Celine’s narrative, one of the inciting incidents is that she, in self defense, murders the boy who tries to rape her, and she flees her home of Paris to come to New Orleans and begin a new life because she’s certain no one will believe her, and in Paris in 1872, the penalty for murdering someone is that you will be hanged, and so she sort of leaves her entire world behind, sort of, you know, wanting to move away from this, this darkness and this, this sin that she perceives herself as having committed because she’s, she’s killed someone, and that, unfortunately that narrative has not changed in, in the 21st century. I think of my own experiences and the experiences of my, of the people that I’m, I’m fortunate enough to call, you know, my close friends and family –
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Renee: – and that shame, that darkness, that sense of responsibility, it’s cultivated by our society still to this day, that idea that a wo-, a girl will not be believed, a woman will not be believed, and that you take on this burden, and you take on this sort of like, this shadow that hovers over you. I really wanted –
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Renee: – to write about it, and I wanted to write about a character for better or for worse sort of embracing it and being like, you know, you know, like, I’m not sorry I did this, even though this, the world is telling me I should be sorry for this. If something is wrong with me because of that, I don’t want to be right. That’s, that’s the character I wanted, because that’s the character that, that’s who I’ve become in my thirties, and I wish I could have had that when I was much younger.
Sarah: And it’s empowering, I think –
Renee: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: – also to, to attempt to reframe and to yell back at the idea –
Renee: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: – that if you are assaulted, in some way it’s your fault.
Renee: Yeah.
Sarah: What did you do to contribute to this happening to you, because we have to find the part where it’s your fault too?
Renee: Absolutely.
Sarah: And for her to say, okay, this part, not my fault.
Renee: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: The other part, the part where this dude’s dead, that’s, that’s my fault, but I have no problems with that. I’m okay –
Renee: Exactly!
Sarah: Like, that’s, that’s a massive reframing of a lot of, of victim guilt that is sort of shoveled onto victims of assault.
Renee: Absolutely, and then the journey to get there for Celine –
Sarah: Yes.
Renee: – is not an easy journey. It’s not something she comes to overnight, because it, it’s, even for us in the 21st century, sure, sort of shedding, you know, you know, millennia of the patriarchy telling us otherwise or having to apologize. I mean, we’re still encountering, you know, situations where, I remember just, just a couple of days ago reading, I don’t know if you saw this, this Ernst & Young thing where they were trying to tell women how to dress at work? That’s, that’s like, this is the 21st century. This is, you know, a major corporation essentially indirectly chastising women for distracting men at work, and it’s just, it’s just, it’s mind-boggling, and, and I mean, you know, not to mention the fact that we have, you know, in charge of our country, a man that has twenty-plus accusations of sexual misconduct, and it doesn’t seem to faze –
Sarah: Mm-hmm, yep.
Renee: – so many people. It’s so infuriating. It’s like, lis-, if you don’t believe this is a problem, then you, none of the women around you trust you. That’s the truth. None of the women around you trust you –
Sarah: Yep.
Renee: – with their lives and their experiences, because that is a gift, that trust is a gift, and you clearly don’t deserve it.
Sarah: So you take this character who has trauma and rage –
Renee: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: – and is doing some very large attempts to, to save herself, and you put her in a world where (1) as a seamstress, she is constructing not only the clothing and the armor but, that people wear, but also the fantasy of dressing up –
Renee: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: – in, like, the most opulent gowns and then you put her in a secret society with some vampires.
Renee: [Laughs]
Sarah: Hell yes!
Renee: No, I, thank you so much. I’m, I’m, yeah. I’m so there for any of this sort of stuff. I mean, I would be there for, like, a dressmaker, but like I said, this is my quintessential id narrative, so I’m like, you know what? These are all the things I love; hopefully somebody else will enjoy them too. [Laughs]
Sarah: Oh – one thing I have learned being, writing online for almost fifteen years and doing this podcast, is that there are always posts or episodes where I think, all right, Sarah, you are the only one who is interested in this –
Renee: [Laughs]
Sarah: – but go ahead. It’s your show; it’s your post. You go ahead! It’s fine! You know what? It’s yours. You are going to –
Renee: You are not alone, Sarah! Let me tell you, you’re not alone. [Laughs]
Sarah: Never! You’re never ever alone. I am never alone in my deep nerdy love of, you know, obscene cross-stitch. I’m never alone in my interest in, okay, how did you sew that? That’s amazing.
Renee: Yes, absolutely!
Sarah: I’m never alone in that. What fun research did you deep-dive into for this book? Like, I imagine the, the dress porn alone –
Renee: Oh God, yes, yes.
Sarah: – is, is a considerable part of your browsing history.
Renee: Oh my gosh, yes, and there are so many amazing YouTube, like, seamstresses and art-, artists online –
Sarah: Yes!
Renee: – that I will watch literally hours of them, you know, con-, reconstructing historical garments, putting their own spin on things. There’s one who’s the Virtuous Courtesan; her name is Lauren, I think her last name is Rossi? She does the most amazing reconstruction work–
Sarah: Yes!
Renee: – and she’s making it high art for herself, and she’s exploring older, like, sewing techniques. I got to work with somebody to learn how to construct a corset, because there, I wanted to write a narrative that acknowledged that there’s some, you know, there is a form of oppression in putting women in cages, I completely understand that, but also, there’s a form of, like, women embracing this too, and this movement of, of –
Sarah: Yep!
Renee: – of women sort of being like, you know, these, we, we, it’s like, you know, taking something that was a form of your oppression and, and, and making it your own. You know, reconstructing it, re-, retooling it so that it fits your life now and you can create a narrative that works for you, and I love this. I mean, fashion is wearable art. You look at the way somebody dresses – I feel the same way about their food. You can understand so much about someone just by eating the food that they, that they make and by looking at the way they dress, and there’s obviously classist and, and, you know, privileged elements to that as well, but I like to look at, you know, what are the choices this person has made? So I look at someone like Odette, who is an amazing character to let her inner world be so clearly outside and expressed by her clothing, because that’s something that, you know, I wish I could have done when I was a kid. I really wish I could have put my things that I loved on my body and walked around in them. I think that that would have been amazing. [Laughs]
Sarah: And it’s funny how we still look at clothes in different ways. Like today, I am wearing my most comfortable clothes because I’m doing a lot of recording and talking, so I want to be comfortable, but also I’m a little tired –
Renee: [Laughs]
Sarah: So it’s, you know, it’s not an underwire day; it’s a relaxing day. Later I have an event. I will dress up; I will put on shoes that make me feel a little bit more badass, ‘cause I’m going to be –
Renee: Absolutely!
Sarah: – pretending –
Renee: You are a badass, so you should absolutely feel that way. [Laughs]
Sarah: Thank you! Thank you! But you, you’re, the way you approach your own clothing changes in the environment, and it took me a while to undo the lesson of judging other women for what they wear?
Renee: Of course.
Sarah: It took me a while to undo that lesson, because, like you said, there are people for whom a corset can be incredibly empowering –
Renee: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Sarah: – and I personally love jeans that have a lot of spandex in them.
Renee: [Laughs] I do too. I think the honest truth is –
Sarah: Ah! So –
Renee: – everyone does; people who say otherwise, I just feel like they haven’t found the right jeans. But I also think it’s wonderful to be a woman who can love to get dressed up in the push-up bra and the stiletto heels and then immediately come home and take it all off and be like, ah, I can breathe! You, you can, you can be both people in the same day, and I love that.
Sarah: Yes! We are complicated. We are not all the same, and we’re not all the same internally, either.
Renee: Exactly! Exactly, and it’s wonderful, because you can love the way that, you know, that, that, that bra and those shoes make you stand up straight and tall and walk into a room, and again, make sure –
Sarah: Yeah.
Renee: – that, that your outside, your inside is on the outside. You know, this is how I really feel. Then it’s, it’s kind of armor too. That’s what I always say, ‘cause I also really love makeup, and there are a lot of people who love to throw out their unwanted opinions when it comes to makeup and I, to me, it’s wearable art, and it’s a type of armor too.
Sarah: Yes!
Renee: Yes, it’s, it’s, it’s wonderful.
Sarah: Yes! I hired a makeup artist in, I think it was April this year? Because I had two conferences, a whole bunch of events, and I was in a wedding. I wear glasses, and I could never figure out how to put on eye makeup –
Renee: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: – that didn’t immediately disappear when I put my eye make-, when I put my eyeglasses on.
Renee: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Sarah: Like, I would do all this work, and then I put my glasses on. It’d be like, you can’t even see what I did.
Renee: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: So I hired an artist. She was like, I will teach you what you need to do to do your eye makeup, and the difference in knowing how to just do my own face –
Renee: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: – I know how to work with the face I’ve got. It is so empowering to know, oh! That weird thing with the, with the, with the curvy swipe of this brush, and then I put my glasses on and it’s like, whoa!
Renee: Yeah, absolutely.
Sarah: I look extra more me now! Hell yeah! It really is empowering, and I needed lessons to figure that out.
Renee: Absolutely! And that’s, that’s the thing that, like, and what’s wonderful too about, you know, like we were talking about how wonderful and terrible technology can be, the gift of –
Sarah: Oh yes.
Renee: – something like YouTube, I mean, God! Wouldn’t we have loved –
Sarah: Yes!
Renee: – to have that when we were sixteen and we were trying to figure out how to –
Sarah: Yeah. [Laughs]
Renee: Like, when I was putting that stripe of eyeshadow on my eye that was just completely wrong, and, and my, my nieces and my nephew too, who love to watch all of these wonderful, you know, like, YouTube gurus – not just for makeup but for lifestyle and stuff like that – they can learn so many cool things that, like, I mean, there are, there are fifteen-year-olds online who are just, like, amazing at doing their makeup, and I’m like, oh my God. Like, your, your, this is going to be –
Sarah: Yes.
Renee: – fantastic for your future too. [Laughs]
Sarah: And, and you get to create characters and live in a world that is real and, and a world in your books where the insides begin to match the outsides –
Renee: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: – because they learn how to match them –
Renee: Exactly.
Sarah: – whether that’s YouTube or, you know, chilling with some vampires.
Renee: Exactly, exactly.
Sarah: Either way!
Renee: Well, and then the freeing nature of being in a space – that’s what I was wanting to do with the, the Court of the Lions, to create what I would have loved to have as a teenager, and even into my twenties, that safe space, because we all, that’s, it’s, I, I do feel like that’s another human condition: we yearn for that safe space, whether it’s with another person –
Sarah: Yes.
Renee: – whether it’s with ourselves, whether it’s in a certain place, and I really wanted to – because, to me, the world of vampires is, has always been a world of elegant outcasts, and that’s, I think, largely because of my passion for Anne Rice’s styling of vampires, and that is, that is a, a role I’m happy to take on, because that, that works for me, and I feel like that’s the case with so many writers and the, and the wonderful men and women I’m, I’m privileged to, you know, be friends with. We’re all a bunch of, at our core, these nerdy, wonderful, amazing outcasts, and we’re creating a space for ourselves that, in which we feel safe, and that’s just a gift, and, and you’re part of that, because of what you’re doing here. Like, like, anybody who loves story and loves discussing story, we’re all passionate about something, and through that we’ve created our own spaces. That’s what you’ve done with this podcast.
Sarah: Oh, thank you! I, I do not – I say this frequently – I do not take myself seriously at all.
Renee: [Laughs]
Sarah: I do not take many things seriously, but I take very, very seriously the safety and the, the – [blows out breath] – the safety and the welcoming perimeter of the community –
Renee: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: – that exists around the podcast and around the website.
Renee: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: I take the comment space very safe, very, very seriously –
Renee: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: – and I take the safety of that space seriously. I am very proud of the fact that you can read the comments at my site and not feel like you need a radioactive decontaminate shower –
Renee: Yeah.
Sarah: – where people will come back and say, you know what? I was, I was wrong. I screwed up. My bad; I’m sorry about that. And other people will gently engage in discussion in ways that are respectful and kind and –
Renee: That’s so wonderful. That’s so wonderful!
Sarah: And then we all want each other to feel safe.
Renee: Absolutely.
Sarah: It’s, and it’s, it’s so important to have that with your friends, both online and off.
Renee: Absolutely, and any community you spend a frequent amount of time in, like, like, and I think it’s –
Sarah: Yeah.
Renee: – one of the reasons why I’m, I’m hopeful at the same time, like, I’m, I’m, I’m sort of, you know, side-eyeing all of this stuff going on with respect to social media. There’s so much about it that’s fantastic, but the other part of it is that it does give people who are, I like to think, and it’s, it’s what gives me peace and, and, and has given, I think, other people peace, when people are hateful online, it speaks more about them than it does about you, you know, and, and –
Sarah: Oh yeah. Oh yeah.
Renee: – that when you realize that there’s so many broken, angry people, it’s good to realize that, because it says something about, you know, where our society needs to go, and the work that we need to do –
Sarah: Yeah.
Renee: – but it’s also, you know, it’s, it can be a major drag to go online and see, you know, like, like, even for me, to see racist comments or, you know, things that are of a sexual nature charged at me, and, and –
Sarah: Ugh.
Renee: – you know, you, you can’t even engage, and it’s very difficult for my, my friends and family when they find out about this, and I’m definitely not alone in this, in this place, especially as a woman of color who has put her, her work out there for public consumption. There are so many amazing writers in the same sphere who get, you know, like, ten, twenty, thirty, forty times the negative attention that, that I do, but it’s taxing! And, you know, it’s not something –
Sarah: Oh yes.
Renee: – that we – and I’m sure that’s the case for you, like, people sharing their unwanted opinions and, you know, levying personal attacks against you. It’s, it can be a lot, and I think that –
Sarah: Yeah.
Renee: – motivates me is it is these spaces that you have created that I go to and I’m like, oh. So I can see the worst of humanity, but I can also see the best of humanity.
Sarah: Yes, it is, it is restorative every day.
Renee: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Sarah: So speaking of work –
Renee: [Laughs]
Sarah: – what are you working on now?
Renee: So if my editor is listening to this, I’m very deep into edits on The Damned. [Laughs]
Sarah: Absolutely!
Renee: That’s what I’m working on now, and The Beautiful is the beginning of a four-book series, and I’ve actually structured it after Regency romances, which are some of my, my favorite things to read ever, and the, what I’m trying to do is, you know, with Regency romance you have, like, a, a series that will have an overarching plot narrative, but the, each individual book will be someone else’s story, so you could come in on the third book and, not having read the first two books, be okay. You don’t have to have read them, but obviously, you know, you, we’re hoping that you fall in love with the world and the characters so much that you want to go back and read them, but it’s not this massive, you know, like, five-year-long commitment to reading every single one of these books in order. I love that about romance novels, and I love the, the, the way everybody’s stories are woven together. I’m, I’m really into that as well, so that’s what I’m looking for in this series, and I’m working on The Damned right now, which is the most challenging and the most rewarding book I’ve ever written, because I, the, the central theme is dismantling toxic masculinity, so.
Sarah: Oh, here for it, yes! Let’s all do that.
Renee: Yeah, yeah! [Laughs]
Sarah: Hang on, I’ll get my boots.
Renee: Yeah, yeah, exact-, no, and I have so much to say; I have so many things that – ‘cause I, I just think, again, it’s really important, in addition to writing these books about, you know, assertive young women who are finding their place in the world, even if that world is 1872 New Orleans, to really sort of, you know, understanding the other side of, of, of the twisted narrative that exists when it comes to our, the dynamics of gender and, and the, the construct of it in our society. Can you take somebody –
Sarah: Yeah.
Renee: – who has been raised in a very toxically masculine world and really push this, this, this man, this boy to question the way in which he’s been raised, the way he’s thought he should be to be a good man? What does it take to be a good man? Not somebody who can fight, not somebody who can argue, not somebody who’s channeling anger in, in place of every other emotion, but somebody who has more depth to them and is really questioning what it means to be a man in the world.
Sarah: Yeah. So we’ve talked about a lot of really difficult things that you have to sort of endure in the world every day, between politics and news and social media. What are the things that you do to take care of your creative self and to look after yourself?
Renee: No, I love this question. So much. I’m, I’m so lucky to do what I do for a living. I read a lot. I love to cook. I find, I find that learning about new cuisines is another, it’s another window into somebody else’s culture. I love to experiment with cooking. I’m big into makeup. I love watching movies, but I have to be watching them with people, like, whose company I really enjoy, because to me that broadens the experience. I love taking baths. [Laughs] I love being with my dog. I love being with my – and, you know, anybody who, that, again, that safe space that we all have this chance to create in our lives, and some are, you know, really fortunate to be able to easily create it. Mine has been a gift to me, and, and it continues to be a gift to me, and one I hope I never ever take for granted.
Sarah: So I always ask this question: what books are you reading right now that you want to tell people about?
Renee: Oh my gosh, there’s so many! I, today I’m saving myself for the, Kerrigan Byrne’s new book. I cannot remember what it’s called, but it’s, it takes place around the Jack the Ripper era in, in Whitechapel in London, and as soon as I heard about this I was like, like, really, this is another id book. This is for me; I’m sold on that one. So that’s going to be my, my read, my treat for myself this evening.
I’ve read so many wonderful YA books recently. I read Gabby Rivera’s Juliet Takes a Breath. She’s fantastic; that’s a great book. Roshani Chokshi’s The Silvered Serpents, which is coming out next year.
Let me see, what else have I been reading right now? Christina Lauren’s new book. I love their stuff, and I, I adore both of them so much.
Sarah: I’m doing the event that I have to figure out my boots for tonight is with them, tonight –
Renee: Oh my gosh!
Sarah: – in, in Arlington.
Renee: Please tell them Renee said hello. [Laughs] Sorry!
Sarah: Oh, I will! I will.
Renee: They’re fantastic. I, they’re, they’re just such smart, wonderful women, and, and it’s, again, the gift of this industry is, you know, for every, every, you know, shitty line of comments and every shitty line of, you know, just people coming after you or saying horrible things, you get this space with these brilliant people who inspire me every day, so.
Sarah: Thank you so much for taking the time to talk to me today. Is there anything you want to make sure to add or say before I hit stop?
Renee: Oh my gosh. No, I, I feel like your questions were fantastic. I’m really such –
Sarah: Oh, thank you!
Renee: – it’s such an honor to chat with you. I’ve, I, again, like, I feel very comfortable with you in a way that’s extremely heartening, and it’s like just chatting with a girlfriend over the phone, and I really, really appreciate you setting aside this time to talk to me about books and to talk to me about the things that inspire me. It’s been such a, a pleasure.
[music]
Sarah: And that brings us to the end of this week’s episode. Thank you to Renee Ahdieh for hanging out with me. If you would like to find her online, she is on the internet at reneeahdieh.com – that’s R-E-N-E-E-A-H-D-I-E-H dot com – and she’s on Twitter, and she’s on Instagram, and I will have links to everywhere you can find her in the show notes as well.
And if you would like to get in touch with me and give me feedback or suggestions or tell me a bad joke because you know I love them, you can email me at [email protected].
The transcript for this episode is brought to you by our Patreon community, and our Patreon community is a wonderful, fabulous collection of humans. Thank you so much to every Patreon supporter who has made this show and every show possible and made sure that every show is accessible to everyone! And thank you to garlicknitter for compiling the transcript for this episode. [You’re welcome! – gk]
Coming up on Smart Bitches, we have Whatcha Reading, Part 2, which is when we tell you what we are reading, and then you tell us what you are reading, and then, again, we buy more books, because that’s pretty much what I do every day is buy more books or acquire more books? It’s, it’s a book problem. So more books? Yes, more books.
We are also going to have a roundup of upcoming book club romance reader gatherings around the country, including Alaska, Massachusetts, and many other places, plus, this coming week, new reviews of anticipated books, a new Stuff We Like, and Cover Snark, plus Elyse’s Bachelor recap, Books on Sale, Help a Bitch Out – I hope you’ll come and hang out with us, ‘cause it’s better when you do!
I will have links to all of the books we talked about. The Beautiful is available now, The Damned will be out very soon, and I believe some of Renee’s books are on sale as well, so have a look at the show notes at smartbitchestrashybooks.com/podcast.
As always, I end the episode with a truly terrible joke. You are welcome in advance. Are you ready? You ready? Are you sure? You sure you’re sure? Okay, this one’s, as always, pretty terrible.
Did you hear about the person who unscrewed a light bulb, crossed the street, and went into a bar?
Yeah. Well, their whole life is a joke!
[Laughs] It’s so dumb; I love it so much! Oh, I love it so much!
On behalf of Renee and myself and my dog, who is snoring very loudly and I’ve had to adjust the microphone to keep that from being picked up, so if you’re hearing snoring, that’s him, not me – we wish you the very best of reading. Have a wonderful weekend, and we will see you back here next week.
Smart Podcast, Trashy Books is part of the Frolic Podcast Network. You can find more outstanding podcasts to subscribe to that will fit all of your interests at frolic.media/podcasts.
[mellow music]
This podcast transcript was handcrafted with meticulous skill by Garlic Knitter. Many thanks.
Thanks for an enjoyable interview, Sarah and Renée. And thank you, garlicknitter, for the transcript.
Is anyone else having trouble playing this episode?
Uh oh – let me look real quick if I messed something up!
Ok, I’m not sure why the on-page player isn’t working, and I’m so sorry about that! But, here is a link to the mp3 file itself if you’d like to listen via web browser:
http://smartbitchestrashybooks.com/podcast/2020221.mp3
Thank you Sarah ❤️
Sarah, I too thank you for the mp3 file link. Enjoyed the episode. But when I went back to grab the V’sD podcast I ran into the same problem with that episode — the player doesn’t work. Please post the link for it on that episode as well. Thanks, as always!!!