This week my guest is DEI Consultant and Romance Fan Sunny Lee-Goodman. You might recall her name from my recent conversation with Dowager RWA President HelenKay Dimon. Sunny is the DEI – Diversity, Education, and Inclusion Consultant working with RWA, and her experience in this field is incredible. In our conversation we talk about tolerance, owning the possibility that you might be wrong, and how to be aware of your own point of view. I ask a lot of questions about the nature of her work, and how individuals and companies can evolve and expand to be more inclusive. Then we talk a whole lot about romance and romance recommendations.
Special appearance from Wilbur, who wanted to add his own vocal stylings to the episode.
❤ Read the transcript ❤
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Here are the books we discuss in this podcast:
You can learn more about Sunny Lee-Goodman, her work, and the Lapin International at their website.
We also mentioned:
- The Weisenthal Museum of Tolerance
- The Ladder of Inference
- Race: The Power of an Illusion – on PBS.org, and you may also be able to access it through Kanopy via your local library’s digital collection
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This Episode's Music
The music you’re listening to was provided by Sassy Outwater, and you can find her on Twitter @Sassyoutwater. This is a band called Sketch, and this is “Bulgarian Shed” from their album ShedLife.
You can find it on Amazon, iTunes, or wherever you buy your most excellent music.
Podcast Sponsor
This week’s episode is brought to you by Scandalous by Minerva Spencer.
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Transcript
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[music]
Sarah Wendell: Hello, and welcome to episode number 373 of Smart Podcast, Trashy Books. I’m Sarah Wendell from Smart Bitches, Trashy Books. With me today is Sunny Lee-Goodman. If that name sounds familiar, you might recall her from my recent conversation with Dowager RWA President HelenKay Dimon. Sunny Lee-Goodman is a DEI consultant, and also a romance fan, and she is the DEI consultant working with RWA. Her experience in this field is really incredible, and in our conversation we talk about tolerance, owning the possibility that you might be wrong, and how to be more aware of your own point of view. And then we talk a whole lot about romance and make a lot of romance recommendations, because that’s really what we do here as well.
This episode also contains a special appearance from Wilbur, who wanted to add his own vocal stylings to this episode, so now I think if you’re a regular listener of the show, you have heard all of my pets. Sorry about that.
This episode is brought to you by Scandalous by Minerva Spencer. The third in The Outcasts series of Regency-set romances by Minerva Spencer, Scandalous has all the action and adventure of Mary Jo Putney, the wit of Madeline Hunter, and the high seas flair of Johanna Lindsey, plus blazing sensuality, as a straight-laced missionary and a dangerous privateer grapple with their instant and intense attraction in close quarters. Scandalous by Minerva Spencer is available wherever books are sold. For more information, visit minervaspencer.com.
Every episode of this here podcast receives a transcript. Every transcript is hand-compiled by garlicknitter. Thank you, garlicknitter! Today’s podcast and the transcript are being brought to you by Larissa Ione’s Reaper, published by 1001 Dark Nights. Head’s up, paranormal fans and Demonica fans. There is a lot to get excited about with this release. This is Ione’s first full-length novel in the Demonica series in five years, and it is the twentieth installment in that series. Readers have been begging for Azagoth and Lilliana’s stories, and now it is finally time. Azagoth is the Keeper of Souls, the Grim Reaper, a fallen angel who commands the respect of both Heaven and Hell. He has ruled over the evil souls in his realm for thousands of years and maintained the balance required for life on Earth and beyond, but now the End of Days is approaching, and Azagoth’s mate Lilliana and their unborn child are in danger. Azagoth will stop at nothing to save them, even if it means shattering age-old alliances, breaking blood oaths, and destroying everything in every world. Readers are already exclaiming over this book. There are cameos from other characters, there is incredible action and adventure, and there are twists you will not see coming. It is a perfect finale to the Demonica world. Reaper by Larissa Ione is on sale October 15th, 2019. For more information, visit larissaione.com.
If you have supported the show with a monthly pledge through our Patreon, thank you! I really, really appreciate your support. You are making sure that every episode is transcribed and accessible, and you help keep the show going week to week. If you would like to support the show, if what we do each week has value, I would very much appreciate it if you had a look at patreon.com/SmartBitches. Monthly pledges start at one dollar a month, and every pledge makes a deeply, deeply appreciated difference, so thank you very, very much for your support and for listening!
And speaking of things that I have to say thank you for, I did a thing I don’t usually do, which is I looked at reviews for the show, and I did not realize how many reviews on Apple Podcasts I had and how gloriously wonderful all of you are. I have over two hundred fifty reviews? Holy crap. Thank you so much! I’m floored! I had goosebumps! I couldn’t, I – thank you. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Reviewing the podcast makes such a difference in discoverability, because algorithms are magic and a strange alchemy. If you have taken the time to review the show, holy crap! Thank you.
I will have information at the end of the show as to the music that you’re listening to; I have a really stupid joke, ‘cause that’s how I end the episode; and of course I have all of the links to the books and the different documentaries and places that we talk about in this episode.
But for now, let’s get started with this interview with Sunny Lee-Goodman.
[music]
Sunny Lee-Goodman: Hello, everyone in Romancelandia! This is Sunny Lee-Goodman. I am the lead Inclusion and Diversity Consultant at an organization called Lapin International. Lapin International is a boutique consulting firm that does strategy and leadership development. We help organizations discover and hone their purpose and marry that with values-based leadership development so that organizations and individuals can fully live up to their potential!
Sarah: So I know that you’re working with RWA as a DEI consultant. Can you explain what DEI is for people who may not have heard of that term before?
Sunny: Sure! So the D in DEI is Diversity, and this represents all the ways that we’re different. Often here in the United States it focuses on things like protected categories: race, religion, gender, sexual orientation, but we also include marginalized voices, things that we can notice and acknowledge as different from ourselves. So it just basically represents all the different ways that we’re different. Equity, then –
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Sunny: – is looking at the system and making sure that it is free from bias or favoritism. So, you know, it’s looking at fairness within the processes, within the systems, within the infrastructure, as well as, like, distribution of resources. And then Inclusion is then the outcome when we truly feel welcome and that we get to share in the power structure, we get to be a part of the decision-making process.
So we see this as kind of a, if we, a process or a continuum, if you will. So diversity would be, oh, look at all the different ways we are different, and we can count it, right. I could write a report to give you the numbers. Whereas equity would be then, once we’re now in the organization, like, what are some of things that, that might get in the way with people fully engaging and being a part of the organization? And then inclusion, and I’ll even throw in this sense of belonging is when you are actually actively participating, being acknowledged for your participation, and being a part of the decision-making process.
Sarah: That’s a, that’s a lot!
Sunny: [Laughs] Yes, it is!
Sarah: For a consultant to sort of roll in and be like, all right, here’s how this is going to work.
Sunny: Well, that’s why, one of two things: there’s no one solution for any one company, right. It’s all, it’s going to look very different for every organization, ‘cause it’s based on who’s there in the company and what they want that inclusion to look like. And number two: you need the participation of everyone in the company. This is like building a community, and in fact, at the end of the day, that’s what we want. We want a well-functioning, highly inclusive community with a deep sense of belonging.
Sarah: So what typically leads a company to contact Lapin and say, we need a consultant to come and help us out with this?
Sunny: [Laughs]
Sarah: Like, I know for, for, I know for some companies, as they look at the level of burnout, for example –
Sunny: Yes.
Sarah: – in their employees, they start to enact policies like, okay, no one can send email after eight o’clock unless you’re literally on fire and there’s arterial blood spray, and maybe it’s enough an emergency then, but otherwise, no, we’re not bothering each other after 8 p.m. You can make a sort of company-wide email culture –
Sunny: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: – change, which I have understood to be extremely successful and am trying to implement, even though my company is little itty bitty.
Sunny: Yes!
Sarah: With DEI, that’s, that’s like a more sort of nebulous concept to nail down in the particulars, because, like you said, with, with DEI it’s different for every company. What leads a company to be like, hey, hi, come on over; we need to talk about this?
Sunny: Yeah, so that, there’s a range of reasons for that as well. So on one end you’ve got companies that are in problem, are in trouble. So –
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Sunny: – early in my career I worked with organizations, police departments that were under consent decree, so there were legal reasons they were forced or mandated to come. There might be pressure from customer base. So a lot of organizations that work with outside vendors or customers themselves are demanding to see DEI strategies within organization. They want to see that you’re making an effort to diversify your company, and they want to see it on paper. Then on the other side, you’ve got organizations that are basically committed to making a great workplace.
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Sunny: What we know is that, you know, the fundamentals of DEI fall down to an issue of respect, right, and honoring somebody’s personal dignity, and when people feel –
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Sunny: – like they are seen and heard, they’re happier. They’re happier within organizations. They, they work harder. They give more. They give their creativity; they give their passion to the work. And there are companies that acknowledge that and recognize that, and so they want to be, they’re looking always for ways to help serve their employee base. And so the cool thing about the approach of DEI is that when it is a value within an organization, not merely just a strategy –
Sarah: Mm-hmm?
Sunny: – you can see it employed through the lifecycle of an employee, from the way, from how they’re recruited and hired and trained, all the way to how they function and promote within an organization, to how they go out retiring. You, you will see the, the values of inclusion woven through their entire work cycle.
Sarah: What does your work as a DEI consultant involve, and how did you develop that as a specialty? I imagine that anyone who meets you and asks what you do gets, has a lot of questions, because what you do is really unique and really interesting! So how did you get into this?
Sunny: Oh, well, thanks for that question! Actually, you know what, when I, I used to, I began my professional career at the Simon Wiesenthal Center Museum of Tolerance, and when I’d go to parties and people would ask me where I work and what I do, they’d look at me and they’d say, oh, that’s nice! and walk away. [Laughs]
Sarah: Oh!
Sunny: I think they were too afraid to engage that I might judge them for not being tolerant enough or, or, you know, understand the issues well enough. I mean, isn’t that one of the baggage things we carry with us? Like, we’re afraid –
Sarah: Totally.
Sunny: – of saying the wrong things, right.
Sarah: Totally.
Sunny: So the, you know, my earliest memory actually of engaging in this topic is when I was eight years old, and I snuck downstairs to watch the miniseries Roots. I wasn’t allowed to watch it, but I, I remember, like, hiding behind the sofa – [laughs] – and watching that miniseries and being completely and totally struck by inequality and the injustice of institutions like slavery, as an eight-year-old, and I think that really stuck with me. I’ve always been an advocate and passionate about social justice, so I did some work; by the time I got to college, I did some work. My friend and I, we started a committee in, in our college called the Student Committee for Cultural Appreciation, and we cultivated that throughout our college career. So then I went to graduate school at UCLA, and my study was in – actually, my undergraduate study was in 19th century slave women – surprise, given what I told you about –
Sarah: Right.
Sunny: – where my interests started – and then I developed into, in graduate school, a study for Asian-American studies and to look at Asian-American women in 20th century work. I didn’t finish my career there, but my job soon thereafter was, I stumbled upon the Museum of Tolerance, which for those of you who don’t know is a museum in west Los Angeles. It’s about a hundred and seventy thousand square feet of exhibitry dedicated to looking at issues of bias and bigotry, racism, and intolerance from a historical perspective so that it’s – one half of the museum is dedicated to looking and learning about the lessons of the Holocaust, and the second part of the museum is looking at those same issues in a contemporary context, so it looks at 20th century genocide. It looks at things like hate, hate speech versus free speech. It looks at three hundred years of American history through the lens of tolerance and intolerance. It looks at, you know, who are we as millenials, and what are we willing to do when we are addressed with global atrocities?
So when I started there, they had just begun, they had received a grant from the State of California to do law enforcement training, and I joined, I was hired as a project assistant, and so we trained about seven thousand officers a year in the, in the field of culture diversity. My first real big client that we worked with was the Los Angeles Police Department –
Sarah: Oh my!
Sunny: – and it was soon after the LA riots. So I feel like my, my training was trial by fire, for sure. [Laughs] You know, it was not unusual for officers to come in with their arms crossed, with a show-me attitude.
Sarah: Oh man.
Sunny: Right, and things that were said, I, you know, you have to learn to put it all into context, but what I, the biggest learning experience I had from there was, you know, I’ll tell you, somebody came up to me about a week into the program and told me, you know what? Stuck his finger in my face, no less.
Sarah: Oh!
Sunny: He said, you can’t change me. And I looked at him and I said, you are absolutely right. It is not my job to change you. You are the only one who can change yourself. But what I can do is provide you more information, a different kind of experience for you to consider, should you want to change yourself. So this idea of meeting people where they are, we don’t have to accept that position, but there’s no way we can actually force people to change. So I often use the, kind of a visual: if you can imagine two dots –
Together: – right –
Sunny: – separated by space.
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Sunny: Now, there’s two ways to make those dots intersect, touch, right? You can move the left dot to the right dot. You can move the right dot to the left dot. Actually, there is a third way: you can move both dots, right?
Sarah: Right.
Sunny: And force them to meet. Now, consider if those dots were people’s core values, right? The more we try to push them to the left or push them to the right or push them together, how much resistance do you think you’re going to meet?
Sarah: After a while, quite a bit –
Sunny: A lot.
Sarah: – for sure, yeah.
Sunny: Yes, exactly. So if this is your core value, asking you to change or move is very, very difficult. You’ll be dragging them, right? But what if we allowed people to stay where they are and honor them for their good core values? ‘Cause I believe in my heart that people have good values, like they believe that respect is a good thing that’s something they’d want to pass along to their children –
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Sunny: – and ask them, instead of moving, what if you just grow your dot? Make your dot bigger. Expand your dot, and pretty soon your dot gets so big it intersects with the other dot.
Sarah: Huh.
Sunny: So this idea of getting people to grow and open and learn is, is the key, I believe, to understanding, at least in our society, and embracing inclusion and diversity initiatives.
Sarah: Wow.
Sunny: Because getting people, demanding that they change rarely works.
Sarah: So within the work you do, moving people’s core values or allowing them to see how their core values could be –
Sunny: Expanding them, yes.
Sarah: – yes! – to be, to be expanding, what are some specific things that you do?
Sunny: So I’ll give you a general sense of what I might do for another organization, right.
Sarah: Mm-hmm!
Sunny: So I recently worked with a very large restaurant chain, and they’re dealing, they’re working with a huge, diverse customer base from all over. They’re an international restaurant chain, and they wanted to give their restaurant managers some tools to better address, or be ahead even, you know, inoculate against creating diversity issues –
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Sunny: – so to speak. So we began, interestingly enough, everything begins with the self, right? No policy is going to fix something for you. [Laughs]
Sarah: No, no, it has to be –
Sunny: And skills that you give –
Sarah: – self-generated.
Sunny: – have to be embraced internally, so it all begins with self. So what we began with was teaching them about why they react the way that they do. So we help them to understand reactivity, ‘cause the first thing that happens when there’s a, a situation is that most people shut down. Their, they, it’s often called the amygdala hijack, right. You go into a defensive mode because you see the situation as an attack. So your body shuts down; you start, stop listening, and then you often, you know, put up your dukes, where, I’m ready to fight kind of thing.
So we help them understand their reactivity, then we help them manage that reactivity. Because it is part of brain science, right, there’s a way to kind of upend that amygdala hijack, so we go through an entire process of understanding it and how I can manage and stay out of my defensive. From there, we then, once you’re now out of your defensive, ah, here’s a chance. We give them some skill-building and how to listen to connect. Not listen to problem-solve, which is something that happens all the time. People are already in solving mode when others are trying to share a story with them, and here’s the thing: you know, what we know is that people will not listen if they don’t feel like they’re being heard, so that conversation goes nowhere unless both sides feel like they’re being heard. And then we add to that another essential skill in terms of how do we ask better questions? The kind of questions that, again, don’t devolve into problem-solving, but to really deeply understand issues.
So armed, if you will, cultivated, developed with those kinds of skills and understanding, we can take people into some of the more difficult conversations that need to be had and ways we react when we feel very much triggered by these kind of issues. And the triggering, again, often feels like, you know, somebody’s attacking my, my core value or, or who I am, and so we have to be very mindful of staying in, out of our defensive operating system. That’s what we call the operating systems. And so to me those are the very, very fundamental skills in beginning to train people on how to work within a very complex environment.
Sarah: I don’t know if you can talk at all about your work with RWA. I know I was connected to you after I interviewed HelenKay Dimon about –
Wilbur: Meow.
Sarah: – your coming aboard to work with them on the RITAs and other issues. I’m curious: how does DEI work, actually work? Like, what are the things that you do to expand people’s core values and points of view? That, as you said, that’s not easy.
Sunny: Yes, that’s very true. Well, we have to hit it at multiple levels, and it depends on the organization, of what they want, of what they’re looking for. At a very top level, one of the things we talk about is DEI as a strategy versus DEI as a value within an organization. So oftentimes with a strategy you may know that if it doesn’t give you a return on investment or if it doesn’t, if it’s not successful, they change strategies, right?
Sarah: Right.
Sunny: And they might just drop DEI, especially if, as an organization, they see it as a nice-to-have, not a need-to-have.
Sarah: Right!
Sunny: So, so what we often encourage organizations to do is to expand that strategy to become a value within an organization. I used, with HelenKay, this idea of, like, diversity and inclusion as a journey, right, not necessarily a destination. So if you live in California, there’s two ways to get to Northern California. You can take the 5, which takes you through the center of the state, and it’s very efficient, and it’ll get you there, but it’s kind of boring, right?
[Laughter]
Sunny: Or you can take the 1 through Big Sur and Santa Barbara, and it’s, it’s, it’s much more fulfilling and, and you get much more of an experience, but also if you look at DEI as a journey, not only is it more fulfilling, but it also gives you the opportunity to make a left turn. Right, sometimes we need to stop and sit at some places, and sometimes we make mistakes. And I told her that we should plan on there being some steps back as, as we move forward, because there’s, as I mentioned earlier, there’s no one way to do this, and so we have to find our way based on the reactions of the organization and what people are really, you know –
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Sunny: – interested in and latching onto and engaged with. So moving this idea that I’m one and done, right, with diversity to this idea of wow, how can diversity infuse every aspect of my organization? In the recruitment of new members, or in the corporate world, the recruitment of new employees. How does it look when I’m in training, when I’m developing programs? Opening up and asking those questions, because for so many years, we haven’t actually asked the questions.
Sarah: Right!
Sunny: So, and, and then we have to creative in coming up with our own solutions, and this is why it’s very individualized and tailored based on who the organization is and what they really think is important. That’s one side.
The other end of it is, it boils down to people’s interactions with one another, doesn’t it? At the end of the day, I’m going to feel included if people make me feel included, if people have invited me to feel included to the organization.
So all of that, all of the upper stuff has to be also in conjunction with how we best interact with one another. From the time I worked at the museum to now, I’m a firm believer in helping people develop and grow themselves and reach, try and reach their highest potential of things, and what can get in the way is a lack of self-awareness, so we have to help people raise their self-, their own self-awareness, and one of the things that can get in the way is when we are triggered into our defensiveness.
Sarah: Yeah.
Sunny: That, when you are triggered, your brain basically shuts down. You’re in fight or flight mode; you’ll either shut your whole body down and stop listening, or you stop listening, and then you say, I’m going to put up my dukes, right.
Sarah: Yeah.
Sunny: So that doesn’t help in any interaction. Now for our, our brains, it was, it’s part of our, you know, evolutionary process to have that fight or flight when we are in physical danger, but when we’re not, we shouldn’t, it shouldn’t deploy, ‘cause it really helps, it gets in the way of more careful consideration and thinking, as you can imagine.
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Sunny: It’s part of our kind of like, you know, reptilian brain there.
[Laughter]
Sunny: So we, what we want to do is help people interact in a way that’s helpful to building connections. So what we do for individuals is, number one, we help them understand why they react the way that they do, and the good news is, you actually aren’t married to that reaction. As human beings, we actually can make a choice to get out of that, what’s often called the amygdala hijack. And so this hijack takes place, we can actually make a choice to respond differently, and that’s the mastery of our reaction. So we help people understand, under-, how they react and why they react, and then we teach them how to master themselves out of that reaction. Once we are in that space, then we can provide some skill level training, like how do we listen to connect?
So often in our lives, if we think about it, we’re distracted by our cell phones, by our computers, by TV, whatever’s going on around us that we really don’t give full attention to people. You know how people often say that their most valuable resource is time?
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Sunny: I would, I would, I would disagree! It is, isn’t time. I, most people have the example, or have the experience of talking to somebody but not really being there for them? [Laughs]
Sarah: Yes.
Sunny: And so we are, I would say it’s our attention that is our most valuable resource. So number one, how do we give people focused attention?
Sarah: Oh!
Sunny: How do we connect with them without problem-solving? ‘Cause oftentimes people just want to be heard. And this is a really important point, because I don’t think people can actually hear others until they feel like they’ve been heard. So we –
Sarah: Oh!
Sunny: – teach them how to listen. This is why storytelling is such an important tool. How will I grow, how will I expand if I don’t know your story, if I don’t know what’s happened to you? So, you know, I mentioned that I worked at the museum; part of the museum experience that we take our participants through is they get to hear a Holocaust survivor.
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Sunny: And it’s such an amazing experience for most people, they often say it’s one of the biggest highlights of their experience there, and I ask them that, could that story that you listened to, that you heard, have changed your life? I mean, could you take that story and understand it and do something differently because of that? And a hundred percent, nobody ever says that they’ve not been changed, right, by that story.
Sarah: Hmm!
Sunny: So think about the value of storytelling as a tool. Right, we share our stories, we make ourselves vulnerable to share things about ourselves, and people, I believe people react to that. That has the potential to change people’s lives. So this idea of listening to connect, and on the flip side of the coin, we also help people develop their skills in asking better questions, more powerful questions, so that they can interact better, so that they can learn, go deeper, understand better, help. And it’s not only the kind of questions that satisfy my own curiosity, but it’s the kind of questions that get the speaker to think about things differently. You know those kinds of questions where you stop and you go – [gasps] – huh!
Sarah: Yeah.
Sunny: I never thought about it like that. That’s the kind of questions we want to be asking. So DEI, to me, is about infrastructure, policy, procedure, yes. That’s the flavor of the organization, and that’s the culture of the organization, but it all boils down to, whether it’s successful or not, is how people interact with one another. So we have to hit it at multiple levels.
Sarah: So when you’re working at that first level, when you’re sharing a story with someone or you’re opening their awareness to another person’s experience, what are some techniques that you use that work when you’re sort of deploying that, that method? ‘Cause I can imagine, you could also encounter resistance there, too.
Sunny: Sure. Yeah. You know, I was thinking about this in terms of, like, if I could give some advice to people, right.
Sarah: Yes, please. Yes, please.
Sunny: So just – yeah!
[Laughter]
Sunny: Number one, be aware you’re in your own framework. Right, your experience is your experience. You can own it, but it’s not the world’s experience, right?
Sarah: That’s such good advice!
Sunny: It’s, to be able to first acknowledge that the way I see the world, it is just that, the way I see the world, and there’s nothing wrong with it, okay, to start with, right. But also, acknowledging and seeing other people for their experiences is just as valuable, right? So we, I often talk about, like, if we could hold our own values and who we are, like, in a fist in front of us, right, which then allows other stories, other experiences to flow through, right? Not use our experiences near, like a shield, but rather hold it just gently in front of us so that other people’s experiences come, can come through. You know, in organizational psychology, they created, there was a psychologist – I think his name is Chris Argiss, Argyris – who created this motto called the Ladder of Inference, and they taught, and it was made popular in Peter Senge’s book The Fifth Discipline, and what he created was, like, this ladder, and each rung of the ladder had a different way that we go about making, a different stage that we hit when we go about making decisions. And by the way, this happens almost instantaneously; it’s not like we spend every, you know, a lot of time on each rung. But those rungs include, like, we begin with observable data, right: this is what’s happening, what, what, in, around us.
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Sunny: Then we choose and select data that we want to see based on who we are and our experience. Then we add our own meaning to what’s happening. Then you make assumptions based on that. Then you draw conclusions.
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Sunny: Then you kind of make it into your truth; you adopt that belief. And then you go ahead and make an action. So let’s just, an example: so have you ever had the situation where somebody, you were waiting for a parking space and somebody cut you off –
Sarah: Yes!
Sunny: – and took the space. Right?
Sarah: All the time.
[Laughter]
Sunny: Imagine that you’ve had this experience with somebody cut you off in the parking lot, so the observable data is you got cut off. So you select data, and you’re seeing, you’re seeing that this guy rushed into the spot, and you add the meaning: what a jerk. Right? He must not know better, that his mama must not have taught him right about taking turns and standing in line, right? Then you draw this conclusion that this guy’s a bad person, and he has no manners, and therefore, you know what, from now on in the future I’m not going to give anyone a chance to cut in line. Right, I’m just going to defend my space in line here. And then, therefore, you start to get out of your car. Let’s imagine that this driver comes up to you and says, oh my gosh, I am so sorry. My wife is having a baby, and I, that was the first spot that I saw, right? And you’re like, oh! Oh, okay, but of course, right?
Sarah: Yep.
Sunny: So what that shows you is that we draw conclusions very quickly based on what our experiences are and how the, what we have, how we’ve interacted with the world about standing in line, right, and taking your turn. The lesson here is to ask one big fundamental question, which is, how can I be wrong? So I mentioned as an individual, you know, hol-, you hold your own values and your own experiences a little bit lighter and then ask yourself the question, how can I be wrong? What else is out there that I’m missing? So when we begin with that, I always ask people to just open themselves up, give it a chance, right? No one’s saying that you have to – again, people have a fear that you’re trying to change them – [laughs] – but being just a little bit more open to someone else’s experiences. Which, by the way, can I just tell you my pet peeve?
Sarah: Please!
Sunny: [Laughs] I was just thinking about this.
Sarah: Please tell me!
Sunny: I, I hate that, that statement, let’s just agree to disagree.
Sarah: Oh God! Me too! Ugh! I hate it!
Sunny: [Laughs] You hate that too? Okay. So why –
Sarah: Yes! Oh, I hate it so much.
Sunny: – why do you hate it?
Sarah: I hate it because it’s a copout that basically says, I’m not willing to listen to you anymore, and I’m not interested in –
Sunny: Amen! Amen! That’s exactly –
Sarah: – hearing your perspective.
Sunny: – the same reason. Basically –
Sarah: Yes.
Sunny: – you’re telling me, I’m not willing to be open –
Sarah: ‘Cause I’m never wrong!
Sunny: – and I’m not willing to hear your side of the story. So that’s not an interaction! [Laughs]
Sarah: Aargh!
Sunny: That’s you talking to a wall. You’re, you’re telling me you’re not willing to try. That you’ve, you’re done with this conversation, and I think that we all have to come to this with this, a willingness to change, right? A willingness to try something different. That, an acknowledgement that what we’re currently doing isn’t working for us, or it’s causing too much damage to relationships, and that, that there is a better way. Now, I guess, like, my years of working at the museum have taught me that we can be purveyors of hope, that even in the hardest situations that we can really touch the humanity of people.
Sarah: I love what you said earlier about how part of the foundation of being open to change is being able to ask yourself, how might I be wrong?
Sunny: Thank you.
Sarah: Because it seems like that first hurdle might so often be, but I’m never wrong!
Sunny: [Laughs]
Sarah: I’m never wrong! In my personal narrative, I am infallible! And I have always, like, you know, if – okay, so for example, I have an almost-fourteen-year-old, and that’s a narrative that changes hourly. So –
Sunny: I have a twelve.
Sarah: Yeah, right! You’ve seen that narrative; that narrative can change, like, every time the wind blows. So there are a lot of times where I’m like, wow, you know, grumpy, quiet, surly, upset, could, must be mad, I, and I have to ask myself, what if the narrative you’re seeing here isn’t right?
Sunny: Right!
Sarah: You know, and it’s –
Sunny: Yes.
Sarah: – it’s really hard to do that, to operate in a, a mindset of I want to trust what, my experience, and I want to trust my, my instincts, and I want to trust what the evidence that I’m selecting is telling me, but at the same time, I might also be wrong. Holding those two ideas in conflict all the time, it, I understand why it’s challenging.
Sunny: Yeah, well, and I’ve often used this: what if we can move to a both/and?
Sarah: Oh, that’s such a good point!
Sunny: That you can both be right and be wrong! [Laughs] Right? And so one of the ways we can explore this wrongness, if you will, are, or our lack of full, is by asking the question. So we see our surly teenagers, we make assumptions, they’re in a bad mood, you know, they’re going to behave a certain way. What if we asked the question, hey, did something happen at school?
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Sunny: Let’s not make an assumption that they just arrived here. [Laughs] Although they come home and they’re surly and you’re like, oh, not another attitude, right? But just to say, hey, did something happen? Not even addressing the moody part, ‘cause we don’t, that’s the, that’s the conclusion, that’s the outcome.
Sarah: Right.
Sunny: But looking at ourselves and asking different kinds of questions. Questions that are, you know, no question can be fully free from judgment, but trying to be open and asking the kinds of questions that aren’t trying to problem-solve, ‘cause problem-solve implies I’ve analyzed and I’ve judged you, and you’re not doing it right?
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Sunny: [Laughs] And, and that’s what builds relationships. Right, keeping that a, a bit open. Your observations are still reality. That’s still true, and you may be right! They just might just be surly, but –
Sarah: [Laughs]
Sunny: – giving that space for something else, let’s not assume that somebody being angry means they’re angry at you.
Sarah: Mm-hmm. Or that you have to fix it.
Sunny: Right! Well, you know, I love this idea of polarities, that two seemingly very binary things can’t meet? I mean, you, I think we’re human beings, and so we actually can manage those two, two realities, if you will, of those two, two different points, and that’s what makes us human.
Sarah: Right.
Sunny: We are not an either-or. We can choose to be both/and.
Sarah: Right.
Sunny: And I think that’s, like, important attitude.
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Sunny: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: I completely agree, and that can we be both, as you said, be somewhat incorrect in our assessment of a situation but also correct in our assessment. Like, it, it can be both at the same time. Wow.
Sunny: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Sarah: So do you have any specific resources or advice for individuals who might be listening to this and then thinking, what do they, how, how can they increase their own attention to these issues in their worlds? Do you have any resources or advice for people?
Sunny: Sure. So that openness, right, trying to be open, let your natural curiosity come through. I think we, most of us are on automatic mode. We have our routines, what we do every day, who we talk to every day. What if we take a little bit of a risk and let our curiosity come out and say, hey, I haven’t met this person before; maybe I want to engage in a conversation.
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Sunny: Attend a different kind of, of social event. Go to places I’ve never been before. Just allow yourself to have, to, to act upon that natural curiosity that most of us have and not be afraid. Now, chances are not everything’s going to be great, right, if you extend yourself that way, but try to look at everything as a learning opportunity.
Secondarily, there are going to be times when you engage in difficult conversations – or any conversations – that it’s going to be uncomfortable. Instead of trying to get rid of that discomfort, try and sit with it.
Sarah: That’s hard!
Sunny: If somebody’s telling – yes, it is! But that’s how we connect with people.
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Sunny: Right, we don’t run away; we just sit and say, wow, I don’t even know what to say, but I’m here for you. Right, I’m here for you; I’m – and, and, and let me help support you in that.
In terms of resources, and this is because I found this to be so amazing, but I, there was a PBS documentary called Race: The Power of an Illusion – I think it’s a four- or five-part documentary – that looks at the social construction of race throughout our country, and I think people will be shocked – [laughs] – because it’s so interesting how, how recent people think history is. Right, they assume things about – for, so, for example, these categories of race that we have today, right, that, that you see on census, on, on different kinds of questionnaires and stuff. Wouldn’t it be interesting to know that those didn’t always apply in the same way? So back in the early 20th century, Hispanic was considered white; Asian was considered white! Right, so –
Sarah: Wow.
Sunny: – and you got all the legal privileges that went with it, and within a, you know, span of years, that’s flipped. So this idea of who we are biologically as a race, there is no biological connection between races; it’s, it’s a social construction. So I always found that to be interesting, because if that’s socially constructed and policies were based on these kinds of social construction, what else out there is socially constructed that I assume is true that maybe isn’t so true? So it’s a way to educate yourself and ask questions like, what else is out there that I know to be true that might, somebody might have a different experience? Give yourself the opportunity to expand and grow.
Sarah: I wish I could describe my face right now, ‘cause this documentary sounds like all of my catnip? I love documentaries like this, and I can’t believe I didn’t know about this one. I am so excited. Thank you. Oh my gosh, I cannot wait.
Sunny: Oh yes. I have to say, I left a different person when I, when, after watching that.
Sarah: Amazing.
Sunny: But there’s a lot of stuff out there. I mean, it’s easy to do a, a search, but because there is so much out there, but if you just want to start, think about – it sounds so corny, and I apologize – but meet your neighbors. [Laughs] Right, if you don’t know your neighbors – and don’t assume you know – if you are friends with your neighbors, ask different kinds of questions. Get to know them even deeper about their experiences, you know, especially growing up, ‘cause that helped forge who they are too. So this is about, DE&I, in my view, is about making connections with people.
Sarah: Right. Wow. Now, you do, all of this is very cool and amazing work, and I am so excited to have, be having this conversation with you, but I also know from HelenKay that you are a romance reader and reviewer!
Sunny: Woowoo! [Laughs]
Sarah: Yes! Which, like, I, I mean, she told me that, oh, we’re working with, with Sunny, and she’s a romance reader, and, and she’s a consultant on DEI. I was like, wow! That’s a perfect combination of things, because, I mean –
Sunny: Yes!
Sarah: – romance is a narrative about connection, and yet romance has a bit of a problem with, with, with DEI in a lot of departments. How long have you been reading romance? And were you, like, so excited to start working with RWA?
[Laughter]
Sunny: Talk about a dream, dream connection, right?
Sarah: Right? [Laughs]
Sunny: Absolutely. Absolutely. And it was, so on two different levels, because I want to contribute to the health and, and success of this genre –
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Sunny: – and number two, because, like you said, there’s something already inherent about what romance writers do, about connection, about redemption, about learning through emotions at times, through people’s experiences, that is the, you know, wheelhouse of DEI. If we can connect into what we do in our, in our work with how we treat others in the real world, right, and just remember that, that those things are true in both, in both arenas, both in the fictional world and the real world, that people can be redeemed, that people have a ch- – making connections with people can change the world.
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Sunny: Right. So, yes, in that –
[Laughter]
Sunny: – I’ve been reading romance since I was twelve, which makes it, like, over thirty-five years. [Laughs]
Sarah: Nice!
Sunny: I began reading romance when I was babysitting my next-door neighbor, and she had a collection of Kathleen Woodiwiss books, and she lent me –
Sarah: Ohhh!
Sunny: – A Rose in Winter, and after I read that three times and gave it back to her, I bought my own copy.
[Laughter]
Sarah: That’s a –
Sunny: Right?
Sarah: That’s a heck of a starting book, too!
Sunny: [Laughs] Oh, seriously. Between her and Laurie McBain and Victoria Holt and Janet Dailey, you know, read all, all of that and, you know, while I was in college, you know how much reading you do in college, right, so –
Sarah: Oh yeah.
Sunny: – that, that, that took the back burner, but when I got out of grad school, I don’t know, I just reconnected with romance and could not get enough. I was definitely one of, I’m your typical romance reader just voraciously going through volume after volume.
Sarah: Yeah, me too. I know this problem.
Sunny: I think it makes me smarter. [Laughs]
Sarah: I absolutely think reading romance makes you smarter, and I think the one, one thing I, I find so fascinating, and I’m sure you, you might have encountered this, is the degree of empathy that is required to engage with a romance.
Sunny: Seriously.
[Laughter]
Sarah: Yes!
Sunny: I was, I was just thinking about, like, what my latest read that – so have you ever read the Winston Brothers series –
Sarah: No, I have not.
Sunny: – by Penny Reid?
Sarah: Tell me.
Sunny: Okay. So have you ever had that sensation where you’re reading a book and you’re like, dear Lord, this author gets me?
Sarah: [Laughs]
Sunny: I get the humor; I get the, I get the approach; I get, like, I mean, are we, are we twins separated at birth? Right? So that Winston Brothers series is just so – it, it runs the gamut in terms of lighthearted comedy all the way to addressing some of the most, you know, hard issues –
Sarah: Yeah.
Sunny: – in, in our world, and so, yeah, and then after I read it, I also find it, I love it when the authors can articulate my own feelings that sometimes I haven’t been able to articulate myself? And so that’s why I feel like I’m smarter. I’ve got the words to put into how I’m feeling about certain things.
Sarah: Yes, absolutely.
Sunny: And I’m, I’m just always in awe – [laughs] – of where they tap into.
Sarah: So what other books that you have read recently would you want to exclaim about, as long as you would like to?
Sunny: Okay! Well, of course –
Sarah: Have you convinced the other DEI consultants to read romance?
Sunny: Oh –
Sarah: Have you gone into, like, work and been like, listen, y’all –
Sunny: Yes.
Sarah: – you need to read this?
Sunny: Yes, I’ve –
Sarah: [Laughs]
Sunny: – I’ve handed out, you know, Helen Hoang’s The Bride Test – [laughs] – as –
Sarah: Good choice!
Sunny: – you know, as well as The Kiss Quotient, because, you know, it’s got an immigrant experience; it’s about, you know, a nontraditional heroine; all – so I’ve shared those, you know, and I’ve shared the – oh gosh, now I’m, now you’re going to kill me – Penny Reid’s book, the first book in her Winston Brothers series, which –
Sarah: Mm-hmm?
Sunny: Oh! Beauty and the Mustache, because there’s poetry in, in that as well. I mean, it, I thought it gave a great experience of bringing poetry into romance. And then on the up, other side of my reading world right now is – I don’t know how I got into this, so please don’t hold this against me, but I’m reading –
Sarah: I’ll never –
Sunny: – a lot of serial killer books!
[Laughter]
Sunny: Okay –
Sarah: You are not alone in that.
Sunny: Okay, all right. So beginning with, you know, Brenda Novak’s Evelyn Talbot series, she’s, she just released her Blind Spot?
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Sunny: And so that series revolves around a psychologist who was kidnapped and tortured as a teenager, and as an adult is now a psychiatrist in a correctional facility for serial killers in Alaska. So that –
Sarah: Whoa!
Sunny: – and Rachel Caine’s Stillhouse Lake series? Oh my God, talk about a page turner? That woman can write any genre, and I will be nose to the book, or nose to the Kindle as the case may be, because she just knows how to turn, write those page turners.
Sarah: Oh –
Sunny: And I have to give a shout-out to my paranormal and sci-fi geeks out there. [Laughs] I’m rereading the Innkeeper chronicles by Ilona Andrews. They’re just brilliant, the husband and wife team of Ilona Andrews. But secondly, this particular one, my son, who’s twelve, now he, I introduced him to fantasy; he loves fantasy. He loves Ilona Andrews, but I can’t give him a lot of Ilona Andrews books to read because of the romance side? Not even the romance; like, the, the heavy, what do we call it? The, the smexy times. What can I say? Right?
Sarah: [Laughs]
Sunny: Sarah, it’s pretty, it’s pretty, I don’t want to say graphic, but it’s pretty detailed, and –
Sarah: Explicit, yes.
Sunny: It’s explicit; thank you so much. But if you can get a twelve-year-old boy to buy into sci-fi –
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Sunny: – and their work – so we have the pleasure of any drive we take, you know, whether it’s to and from school or tennis or – we are listening to audiobooks, and we’re, we’re, the Ilona Andrews, I think we’re on our second go-round –
Sarah: Oh cool!
Sunny: – of the Innkeeper chronicle. Right, so it’s a, it’s a family experience! [Laughs]
Sarah: I love that! That’s brilliant!
Sunny: So I can, you know, with audiobooks, I can just ensure what he gets to hear and doesn’t hear?
Sarah: Uh-huh!
Sunny: But, you know, I can fast forward thirty seconds at a time. [Laughs]
Sarah: Skip, skip, skip.
Sunny: Skip, skip, skip, yes –
Sarah: Yep, yep.
Sunny: – for what might be age-appropriate for him.
Sarah: That’s –
Sunny: But the idea, yeah.
Sarah: That’s a –
Sunny: He loves the, the world.
Sarah: – really good recommendation too, ‘cause their narrator is fantastic!
Sunny: [Gasps] Renee Raudman? [Laughs]
Sarah: I did an interview with her, and I was just like, could you just talk? Just say whatever you want.
Sunny: I know! I, I agree. I can listen to her read the dictionary.
Sarah: Oh my gosh!
Sunny: I just love, love her, yes.
Sarah: Her voice is amazing.
Sunny: Right? And can I just – I know; you don’t have to include in the broadcast, but I wanted to get book recommendations from you as well, because –
Sarah: Oh!
Sunny: Right? We, romance readers can’t help themselves. [Laughs]
Sarah: No, absolutely.
Sunny: We stand in line. And by the way, I’ll just say also that there are times that I’ve been coaching, right, so I do executive coaching?
Sarah: Mm-hmm?
Sunny: And somebody will say something to me like, and I’m an avid reader! So oftentimes I, I investigate just a little bit more, and I haven’t been disappointed. [Laughs]
Sarah: Yay!
Sunny: I’ll just tell you, there are people out there who are at all walks of life that are reading romance.
Sarah: Oh, I love it. I absolutely love it. Okay, so what are you looking for in terms of recommendations? More paranormal? What are you looking for?
Sunny: What’s the best thing you’ve read in the last month?
Sarah: Oh goodness. Okay, let’s see. Have you read the Psy-Changeling series by Nalini Singh?
Sunny: Ooh-wee! Books ten through thirteen.
Sarah: Yeah, okay, so you –
Sunny: Just amazing. [Laughs]
Sarah: And have you read – now this one’s a hard one – Shelly Laurenston is, can be like cilantro for people: either you love it or you think it tastes like soap – but the Call of Crows series might really work for you because it is campy, over-the-top hilarity with a multicultural, diverse retelling of Norse mythology.
Sunny: Oh my God! Totally! I love mythology too!
Sarah: Okay, you’re going to love this trilogy. Basically, the Norse gods have teams of warriors on earth, and Thor’s warriors are big and dumb and giant killers, and they’re, Odin has a group, and Tyr has a group, and they’re all super white, because they’re all drawing from Norwegian and Swedish families who have gone back generations, and basically the gods, like, if you have ever read Norse mythology, the gods lose their stuff, like, all the time. They, like, I lost my bracelet! It must be stolen! So there’s all these problems, and the human warriors have to deal with it. Then there’s Skuld, who’s one of the Norns, who took, for her original warriors, the slaves who had been kidnapped by the Vikings back in the day. The other, the other clans –
Sunny: Uh-huh.
Sarah: – are terribly afraid of the Crows who work for Skuld, because they’re all women, they are all diverse, they are all from very different backgrounds. They really don’t give a crap about your, you know, your lineage, and when the Crows show up, things are about to get extremely real, and they, they’re amazing. And they’re super –
Sunny: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: – super cool, and they each have, like, a, like, an individualized super power. I love this series so much because when I finished it, it made me think, okay, who are my Crows? Who are the women I can depend on without question? Love them.
Sunny: [Laughs] Yes. I love it. I love it. I’m super excited.
Sarah: So campy. So much camp! Cannot even tell you how much camp. All right, let me look –
Sunny: But we need that.
Sarah: Oh, absolutely!
Sunny: Every once in a while we need that.
Sarah: Let’s see here.
Sunny: By the way, have you read Sherry Thomas, is it Sherry Thomas who just came out with that new Mulan book?
Sarah: Yes! Yes, the new Mulan retelling.
Sunny: Okay, I read that. I really enjoyed that.
Sarah: Oh –
Sunny: That was really good. I, I didn’t, I love the research she did into it?
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Sunny: And what she brought to the table about the historical context of Mulan –
Sarah: Yes.
Sunny: – so, and the religious aspect? I thought it was really well done.
Sarah: A book that might work for your son, a novella – I listened to the audiobook, and I’ve read it – it’s by Lois McMaster Bujold, and it’s a series of novellas starting with Penric’s Demon. The, the, the stories take place in the same world as some of her other books, but Penric is this perfectly nice dude, he’s on his way to a betrothal that’s been arranged by his family, and he accidentally becomes possessed by a demon, and that’s a very big deal. It comes with a lot of power and a lot of politics, and the demon has been, has inhabited different people over generations – most of the time they’re women – and so the demon maintains vestiges of its prior personalities, so it’s like having fourteen or fifteen women going back in history hanging out in your brain.
Sunny: How lucky is he? [Laughs]
Sarah: And Penric has – oh yeah – and he’s, he’s like, uh, I, I don’t know what to do with all of these people talking to me. But eventually he makes friends with the demon, and he gives it a name, which the, the, the demon is not prepared to be named and treated kindly. Usually the demons are used for their power, and you have to be a very special level of sorcerer to have a demon, so this rando dude to just get one is completely outside the power structure, but the relationship between Penric and his demon is so thoughtful –
Sunny: Hmm!
Sarah: – and it’s basically people being rewarded for ultimately making kind choices?
Sunny: Oh! Yes.
Sarah: Which I love!
Sunny: I love that! [Laughs]
Sarah: Exactly! Penric –
Sunny: That’s the kind of stuff I would love, yes. I’m going to read that! I, as well as share it with – thank you for thinking of my son, by the way, ‘cause sometimes I struggle to find the right books, and I don’t know the YA market as, enough to know –
Sarah: Yeah.
Sunny: – what would work for him. But I love that.
Sarah: These aren’t, these aren’t YA?
Sunny: Yeah.
Sarah: They’re fantasy, but they’re not explicit.
Sunny: Yeah.
Sarah: I think there’s like a, a reference to Penric looking forward to being married because, you know, sex is nice?
Sunny: Yeah? [Laughs]
Sarah: And there’s one point where he’s like, oh, I cannot masturbate with a demon in my head, because the –
Sunny: That would be weird!
Sarah: – ‘cause the demon’s like, oh, this is interesting! We’ve never witnessed it from this perspective! And he’s like, nope! Nope! Nope! Nope, nope, nope, no, not happening.
Sunny: [Laughs] But that’s great! I love that perspective!
Sarah: Oh, it’s so funny! Another book you might like that’s a contemporary that I really enjoyed is called The Flatshare by Beth O’Leary?
Sunny: The Flat Chair.
Sarah: The Flatshare.
Sunny: Oh, the –
Sarah: The, the heroine is getting out of a really terrible, and she slowly comes to realize abusive, relationship, and she answers an ad for a flatshare from a guy named Leon. Leon works an overnight shift at a, at a hospice. He – so she can have the flat at night while he’s at work –
Sunny: Uh-huh.
Sarah: – and then she goes to work, and he uses the flat during the day to sleep. They eventually start leaving notes for each other and create this sort of re-, relationship in Post-it notes –
Sunny: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: – as their lives go on, and then eventually they figure out how to meet, and it’s so adorable. But I have a serious weakness for anything that has an epistolary element. Like, I love it.
Sunny: I love that. Oh, thank you so much! I’m so excited about my book recommendations, because – and I rarely read without a recommendation.
Sarah: Oh, I understand.
Sunny: Because there’s nothing worse than getting halfway or a quarter way through a book and knowing that this is not for you. [Laughs]
Sarah: Yes.
Sunny: And then I’m like, I spent my time on this!
Sarah: I know. Oh yeah. I’m like, I’m bailing.
Sunny: Yeah.
Sarah: I do have a short rec for you that’s nonfiction?
Sunny: Yeah!
Sarah: I liked this book so much that I wanted to read it again, and it was like ninety-one pages, so it wasn’t like it was hard?
Sunny: Uh-huh?
Sarah: But there was such a hold line at the library that I returned it so the next person could have it sooner. It’s called Wolfpack by Abby Wambach, who was on the US women’s soccer team?
Sunny: Mm-hmm?
Sarah: This was originally a speech she gave at a commencement, and then she expanded it into a book. Basically, it’s the idea that you are never Little Red Riding Hood; you are always the Wolf, and people have talked you out of being the Wolf, but you need to, you need to own your ambition, and you need to own your strength, and you need to own the strength and ambition of the women around you and form a pack.
Sunny: You don’t know how important that comment is to me at this moment in my life.
Sarah: Oh! I’m so glad!
Sunny: Right? You meet people, you talk to people, and you know they contribute, but there are some times where you hear something, a wisdom, a truth –
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Sunny: – that is so important, and my feeling is that if I’m going to jump and put myself out there, then I have to go at it with full passion and full gusto –
Sarah: Yes.
Sunny: – ‘cause any, any fear is going to hold me back –
Sarah: Yes.
Sunny: – is going to hold back that energy, so thank you, Sarah!
Sarah: This book will really rock your world. And like I said, I wanted to read it again, but because of the book –
Sunny: [Laughs]
Sarah: – no, I need to pass this on to the next person in line, because they need this book too.
Sunny: Aww!
Sarah: It’s really, really good.
[music]
Sarah: And that brings us to the end of this episode. I want to thank Sunny Lee-Goodman, especially because while we were recording I had a number of technical issues that she totally was chill about, and I am very thankful for her patience. I hope you enjoyed this episode, and if you are looking for links to the documentaries she mentioned, some of the books we talked about, they are absolutely in the show notes at smartbitchestrashybooks.com/podcast.
And if you want to get in touch with me, suggest a guest, tell me a joke, all of the above, you can email me at [email protected], or you can leave me a message at 1-201-371-3272. I do love hearing from you, so however you choose to get in touch is excellent!
This podcast episode was brought to you by Scandalous by Minerva Spencer. The third in The Outcasts series of Regency-set romances by Minerva Spencer, Scandalous has all the action and adventure of Mary Jo Putney, the wit of Madeline Hunter, the high seas flair of Johanna Lindsey, plus blazing sensuality, as a straight-laced missionary and a dangerous privateer grapple with their intense attraction in close quarters. Scandalous by Minerva Spencer is available wherever books are sold. For more information, visit minervaspencer.com.
Today’s podcast and the transcript are brought to you by Larissa Ione’s Reaper, published by 1001 Dark Nights. Paranormal fans and Demonica fans have a lot to get excited about. This is Ione’s first full-length novel in the Demonica series in five years, and it is the twentieth and final installment in that series. Readers have been begging for Azagoth and Lilliana’s story, and now it is finally time. Azagoth is the Keeper of Souls, the Grim Reaper, a fallen angel who commands the respect of both Heaven and Hell, and he has maintained the balance required for life on Earth and beyond, but now the End of Days is approaching, and his mate and their unborn child are in danger. He will stop at nothing to save them, even if it means shattering age-old alliances, breaking blood oaths, and destroying everything in every world. Readers are already so excited about this book. There are cameos from other characters, there is incredible action, and there are twists you will not see coming. It is a perfect finale to the Demonica world. Reaper by Larissa Ione is on sale October 15th, 2019, and for more information you can visit larissaione.com.
If you have supported the show through our Patreon, thank you. Monthly pledges begin at one dollar. Every pledge makes a deeply, deeply appreciated difference, and if you are curious to learn more you can have a look at patreon.com/SmartBitches. Thank you, as always, to our Patreon community for helping me keep the show going and for making sure that every episode is accessible to everyone.
The music you are listening to is provided by Sassy Outwater. This is a band named Sketch, and this track is called “Bulgarian Shed,” and it’s from their album Shed Life. I’m not sure how many varieties of shed there are, but I rather like this one. You can find this album and this song on Amazon or iTunes or wherever you acquire your most excellent music.
I will have links to the various institutions and documentaries that Sunny mentioned. I will say, I have begun to watch Race: The Power of an Illusion on pbs.org, or through Kanopy, which is through my local library, and she’s right: it is mind-blowing. It is really, really good.
Zeb: Woof, woof!
Sarah: Zeb agrees. I will also have links to all of the books that we talked about in this episode.
But I always end with a terrible joke. Are you ready for a terrible joke? I am not surprised at all that some of the reviews for the show have mentioned how much you enjoy the jokes. Thank you for enjoying them as much as I do. They’re absolutely terrible, and I savor each and every one. So here we go. [Clears throat]
What do you call a pile of cats?
What do you call a pile of cats?
A meow-ntain.
[Laughs] It’s so stupid! I love it so much! That is from a user named /jaffa_54 on Reddit, which is a place of acquiring much bad jokes. [Laughs again] Meow-ntain!
So on behalf of Sunny Lee-Goodman and myself and the dog and the cat – this has been a very pet-full episode – we wish you the very best of reading. Have a wonderful weekend, and we will see you here next week.
[cool music]
This podcast transcript was handcrafted with meticulous skill by Garlic Knitter. Many thanks.
Transcript Sponsor
Today’s podcast and the transcript are brought to you by Larissa Ione’s Reaper, published by 1001 Dark Nights. Paranormal romance fans, and Demonica fans, heads up: there is a LOT to get excited about with this release. This is Ione’s first full-length novel in the Demonica series in five years – and the 20th installment in that series. Readers have been begging for Azagoth and Lilliana’s story for years, and now it is finally time.
Azagoth is the Keeper of Souls, the Grim Reaper, a fallen angel who commands the respect of both heaven and hell. He’s ruled over the evil souls in his realm for thousands of years, and maintained the balance required for life on Earth and beyond.
But now the End of Days is approaching, and Azagoth’s mate, Lilliana, and their unborn child are in danger. Azagoth will stop at nothing to save them, even if it means shattering age-old alliances, breaking blood oaths, and destroying everything in every world.
Readers are already exclaiming over this book. There are cameos from other characters, incredible action and adventure, and twists you won’t see coming. It’s a perfect finale to the Demonica world.
Reaper by Larissa Ione is on sale October 15, 2019. For more information, visit LarissaIone.com.
Another GREAT podcast episode!! And Sarah, read Penny Reid!!!!! She’s incredible!
Awesome interview once again!
Sunny, an audiobook rec for you and your son. (Also Sarah and her sons.) A Beautiful Friendship by David Weber is SF YA with an amazing narrator (Khristine Hvam). If you like it, there are two more books to enjoy.
Another audiobook rec (an Audible Original MG) that I think you will all enjoy is Zero G by Dan Wells. It’s a full cast comfort listen for me. A little Home Alone-ish—but not as mean.
My “if you like Innkeeper” rec is Tinker by Wen Spencer. It’s got the same kind of delightful mishmash of genres, species, and characters. (It might also work for your son, but I suggest you read it first to see if you want to wait a few years. I’m not so good with the figuring out of age-appropriateness, and there’s definitely some violence in the series.) And the narrator, Tanya Eby, is great.
Oh, these are some excellent recs. Thank you so much!!
I also quite enjoyed this interview (via the transcript). Thank you, Sarah, Sunny, and garlic knitter.
My recommendation for Sunny and son is Linesman by SK Dunstall.
@Sarah! I can’t believe you haven’t read The Winston Brothers! Did those cross-stitch covers not speak directly to your soul? Everyone has a different favorite–I suggest starting with Siena & Jethro’s story, Grin & Beard It (technically #2, if Ashley & Drew’s story is .5). It gives you a good grounding in the family dynamic, and the main characters are really accessible. If you like it, you’ve got the rest of the Winston series AND the Knitting in the City books to keep you company on dog walks and chores.