365. Sunrise, Sunset, and Behind the Scenes in Publishing: Hanging out with Abby Zidle

[music]

Sarah Wendell: Hello there, and welcome to episode number 365 of Smart Podcast, Trashy Books. I am Sarah Wendell from Smart Bitches, Trashy Books, and we have an episode for every day of the year, minus leap year. How cool is that?!

Today I am talking with Abby Zidle. We had a candid conversation at RWA in July, and we talked about everything. If you are curious about how publishing is changing and what has changed, this episode will be very much your catnip. Abby is the Associate Director for Marketing at Gallery Books, which is part of Simon & Schuster, and she’s also a Senior Editor, and she has worked in Editorial and Acquisition for many, many years. We are going to talk about everything from the process of writing and selling a book to the places you find that book in a store and how all of those things have changed over the years. We’re going to talk about what’s up with Mass Market and what’s up with Trade, and what does she love most about working in romance publishing? We’re basically taking a thirty-five-thousand-foot view, and there is a lot to discuss.

I will have links to where you can find Abby online in the show notes, but of course you can always email me at sbjpodcast@gmail.com, or you can leave me a message at 1-201-371-3272. I do love hearing from you; your message are awesome.

Today’s podcast is sponsored by Muff Stuff, book three in the Muffia series by Ann Royal Nicholas. Costly, coddled canines are missing all over the Southland. Sarah, a baking whiz and member of LA’s most dynamic women’s book group is a soon-to-be-single mom who’s about to get foreclosed upon thanks to her philandering ex-husband. Her son Nathaniel is being bullied at science camp, his Ls sound like Ws, and the only movie he’ll watch is The Princess Bride. No wonder she’s having trouble getting through the Muffs’ latest read. Sarah launches a plan to save her house while building a baking goods empire, and before too long, things start looking up—her cookies are a hit, Nathaniel’s Ls are improving, and she meets a handsome widower who makes her feel sexy for the first time in years. But when she foils a plot to steal her family’s adopted French Bulldog and Muff Lauren’s Boston Terriers go missing in the middle of her Labor Day barbecue, it’s time for The Muffia to mobilize. With the assistance of a Palm Springs Magic Men Live! aficionado, a vengeful Pug owner and three Bichon Frises, the Muffs set out to nab the ‘nappers and discover dog thieves come in surprising guises. Muff Stuff and all the books in the Muffia series can be found wherever books are sold, and you can find out more at annroyalnicholas.com.

Today’s podcast transcript is brought to you by Star Knight Errant: Thrust by A. K. Shelley. If you like Celia Kyle and Anna Hackett, you will love this sci-fi romance filled with action and passion. When Martian Air Science Engineer Cass Hedley takes a dare to use her new Artificial Intelligence system for a night of erotic release, there’s only one man she can imagine spending time with – the legendary comic book hero Star Knight Errant. She imagines strong hands, hard abs, and bubble baths, but her black market AI has another idea – an illegal fight club that will only end in her sexy companion’s death…or hers. When Evander Mór transports to an unknown desert planet, his mission changes. Instead of brokering a peace deal, he’ll figure out what backwater he’s landed on and enjoy a well-earned weekend off with a gorgeous scientist. But when things get hotter than a supernova between them, he discovers he only has eighteen hours to stop an AI bent on murder, convince Cass he’s more than fiction, and find a way to cross the gulf between galaxies to bring her home. The Orange County Chapter of RWA gave this story the Charlotte Award for Emerging Writers in 2018, and author Anita Philmar says it hits all the buttons to excite and thrill. Star Knight Errant: Thrust by A. K. Shelley is on preorder now wherever books are sold and releases August 26th. Find out more at akshelley.com, and of course I will have links to these books in the show notes at smartbitchestrashybooks.com/podcast.

Eternal and copious thanks to the podcast Patreon community, who help me ensure that every episode is transcribed, every episode in the archives receives a transcript, and that every episode is accessible to everyone, which is important to me and many readers and listeners. If you have supported the show with a monthly pledge, thank you, thank you, thank you! You are helping me keep going each week. Three hundred sixty-five episodes! That’s a lot! That’s a lot of episodes!

If you would like to join the Patreon community and support the show, it would be wonderful if you did. Our Patreon is patreon.com/SmartBitches. Monthly pledges start at one dollar a month, and your support means a lot, so thank you in advance.

I will have information at the end of the episode as to who this music is that you are listening to, and I will have a terrible joke, because I’m really enjoying putting those at the end of every episode. And I will have links to everything we talk about in this episode, including the podcast that Abby tells us about.

But for now, let’s do this interview: on with the podcast.

[music]

Sarah: All right, so basically it’s just like we’re going to hang out and talk, except we have microphones, ‘cause that’s not awkward at all.

Abby Zidle: Awesome! No, totally not.

Sarah: You –

Abby: I feel like karaoke might break out at some point, but we’ll keep it short –

Sarah: It’s possible.

Abby: – ‘cause you won’t have to license it.

Sarah: Yeah, that works!

Abby: [Laughs]

Sarah: I mean, it would take a while for them to track me down anyway –

Abby: I think so.

Sarah: – so sing all you want! I don’t care!

Abby: For sure. Ho-ho!

Sarah: So did you have a nice author lunch?

Abby: I did! We had some lovely, lovely authors who were in town. That’s the best thing about RWA is getting to –

Sarah: I was just going to say that you, you, that must be one of the perks –

Abby: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – of (a) it’s in New York –

Abby: Yes.

Sarah: – and (b) you get to have lunch with people you work with individually –

Abby: Yeah, and –

Sarah: – all year.

Abby: It’s so true, and the thing is, it’s so funny, because this business is strangely isolating, and yet the community is so strong?

Sarah: Yeah!

Abby: It’s a weird dichotomy, and I think RWA really brings it up because all these authors that you love are, whether they’re working a day job or not, they’re producing their art in tiny, isolated boxes a lot?

Sarah: Mm-hmm, yeah.

Abby: I mean, and they have writers groups and things, and we were talking today at lunch about how different of these authors prefer to, do they write in a coffee house? Do they write on their own? What do they use? And editors, like, I have had relationships with authors where I had never met them in person until book three!

Sarah: [Laughs]

Abby: Like, there’s sometimes not a need or a reason to have to do face time ‘cause everything is electronic and on email, and so sometimes it’s really funny. A, a conference like this comes along, and they’re like, I’m coming to RWA! Or, you know, oh my gosh, that’s great! And then you have to remember to do the – [gasps] – wait! How will I know it’s you?

Sarah: Yeah.

Abby: You know, I’ve, especially if it’s a new one and they haven’t turned in an author photo yet it’s like, well, um, what do you look like?

Sarah: And author photos don’t always look like the authors.

Abby: No. No.

Sarah: They – I don’t look a, I don’t look a lot like my author photo anymore.

Abby: Oh yeah, no.

Sarah: It’s an older one.

Abby: No, that’s true.

Sarah: So let me back up a second.

Abby: Yes.

Sarah: Would you please tell me who you are, and what is your title now?

Abby: That is a good point. I’m like, I’m some lady –

Sarah: Great High Empress?

Abby: I would love that to be my title! I’m having new business cards printed with that as we speak.

Sarah: Is your boss here? Do you want me to go have a word?

[Laughter]

Abby: We’re really close! Roxanne is right down the street.

Sarah: Oh!

Abby: We could make it happen.

Sarah: Yeah!

Abby: No. My, I am Abby Zidle. I am –

Sarah: Hi, Abby Zidle!

Abby: [Laughs] It’s so nice to meet you. See you! And my current title is Associate Director of Marketing for Gallery Books, which is a division of Simon & Schuster.

Sarah: Fabulous!

Abby: I sound verra fancy, and I kept my Senior Editor title, which is sort of still in my back pocket, because for seventeen years-ish, I was just an editor, and then –

Sarah: Just –

Abby: – I got curious and started looking over the fence and had the opportunity to learn some new skills and learn some new things and hop over to the Marketing department, and so I still keep my hand in, I have a couple of authors, but I don’t have to actively acquire a full list anymore, so –

Sarah: Right.

Abby: – for me it’s the best of both worlds, and I’ve gotten to see a whole other side of the publishing business, which has been instructive and a lot of like, girl, God, if you had known this, how this really worked twelve years ago, you know –

Sarah: Things would have been different.

Abby: – things would have at least made a lot more sense. [Laughs]

Sarah: Yeah! Now, it would seem from working in Editorial for seventeen years and then moving over to Marketing a few years ago, you have seen a lot of the changes in the industry and in the genre from multiple perspectives.

Abby: Yeah, definitely. That’s, that’s really true, and I’ll back it up sort of further than that even, because I got into this business because I was a reader of romance. I loved it. I started reading them at thirteen.

Sarah: Yep.

Abby: I had my very first romance, Surrender to Ecstasy.

Sarah: Isn’t it amazing how romance readers remember their first?

Abby: I remember, I remember my first; you always remember your first!

Sarah: Always remember!

Abby: And I hid it. I, I rode horses and would go out to the barn for a riding lesson, and I hid it in my tack box there so Mom –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Abby: – so Mom didn’t know that I was reading this, this wicked –

Sarah: This saucy book!

Abby: – a wicked, wicked book – exactly, and it was very, like, peak bodice ripper –

Sarah: Oh yeah. Mine was –

Abby: – ‘cause it was early ‘80s.

Sarah: – Midsummer Magic by Catherine Coulter. Same thing: early –

Abby: Yeah.

Sarah: – early ‘90s, late ‘80s.

Abby: Mm-hmm! Yeah. Yeah.

Sarah: She was a, she was either a spitfire or a firebrand or both! Yeah.

Abby: Mm-hmm! There was definitely fire. [Laughs]

Sarah: Fire, and she had red hair!

Abby: Yep!

Sarah: And some amazing eye shadow and clothing choices on the front cover! Oh yeah.

Abby: Oh my God, yes! Yes, like, or like that classic Johanna Lindsey cover and – was it Johanna Lindsey or Bertrice Small? Sorry. Red, red hair; purple, purple eye shadow? Like –

Sarah: That’s Bertrice Small.

Abby: Yes! It’s the, it’s the golden, cream-colored one – Aidan!

Sarah: Yes.

Abby: Aidan is the heroine –

Sarah: Yes. And –

Abby: – and I’ve forgotten which, the title is, but –

Sarah: Someone who’s going to be listening to this is going to be screaming the title.

Abby: Yes.

Sarah: And then there’s the older –

Abby: A Love for All Time? Maybe?

Sarah: You might be right about that.

Abby: It’s part of the Skye O’Malley series. People, look it up. Those books are so, so good.

Sarah: They’re nuts.

Abby: Yeah.

Sarah: They’re completely nuts –

Abby: Yeah.

Sarah: – but they’re so good. I also love the very old Jude Deveraux – I want to say it might be The Raider or one of those – where the heroine’s hair is like this full, 180-degree pinwheel of –

Abby: Yeah.

Sarah: – gold, like, like he’s –

Abby: Yes!

Sarah: – swinging her around while putting her on a horse, and –

Abby: Yes!

Sarah: – her hair is like sixty percent –

Abby: The hair is – yeah, so much fan hair in the ‘80s?

Sarah: Yes!

Abby: So much fan hair.

Sarah: And boobs.

Abby: Oh yeah.

Sarah: Tiny little women, big giant bosoms!

Abby: Yep. Yep, yes. Tragically, no women in the 16th century could walk, apparently.

Sarah: No!

Abby: They all just toppled, toppled clean over.

Sarah: Yeah, face first.

Abby: Yes. [Laughs]

Sarah: So what are some of the things that you can point to as, this is still changing?

Abby: I was just talking about this today, that I feel like we are in an era of, all of us are in an era of disruption right now.

Sarah: Yeah.

Abby: Everything is disrupt this, disrupt that, and we’re sort of disrupting publishing. And obviously the biggest change is the rise of the e-book –

Sarah: Right.

Abby: – because – children, I am older than the internet, terrifyingly – but –

Sarah: So am I.

Abby: – it’s – [laughs] – we still look fabulous!

Sarah: We so look good. [Laughs]

Abby: And so, when I first was just –

Sarah: Like two old publishing crones.

Abby: Yay!

Sarah: [Laughs]

Abby: Is that the name of this podcast? ‘Cause it should be.

Sarah: It is now! It is now!

Abby: It should be.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Abby: So when I started, there weren’t e-books, and you really had just a few major accounts –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Abby: – you know? And so the writing and publishing and selling of these books was kind of understood to be like, we get it! It goes from author to agent to publishing house to sales rep to bookseller, you know, and it was this kind of closed circuit.

Sarah: And it was all very streamlined, and there weren’t that many people that you needed to pass off to the next person.

Abby: Right, it was sort of like there were one, there was one road, and if you wanted to play you walked it, and certainly –

Sarah: Sort of the model –

Abby: – some would do better.

Sarah: – RWA’s built on.

Abby: Yes, because that is what it was, and RWA, in a way, as it arose, functioned, I think, in a lot of ways as a union for romance authors, you know, and was important because the, the closed-loop nature of that path meant that when your, the people who are like, hey, surprise, we are choosing which books get published and also we’re the ones who can talk to the sales reps, ‘cause you don’t know how to reach people, don’t have access to those people, it took an organization like an RWA to enforce, to underscore and enforce how powerful the romance author group as a bloc could be, and even more so, how powerful and profitable the romance reading audience –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Abby: – would be. I mean, because at the end of the day, money talks, as –

Sarah: Oh, it absolutely does.

Abby: – as it ever has, as it ever shall be, and that understanding – because I think, like a lot of enterprises that are female-driven, female-led, and largely female, certain organizations or people automatically dismiss it, and so they were like, isn’t this cute that the ladies are writing the lady things? We would never read ‘em, yada, yada, yada, and it takes an organization to be like, hi, fifty percent of your entire paperback business is us –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Abby: – so let’s listen up.

Sarah: I’ve said this to so many people that I’ve talked to this week that I know in publishing: when I started attending RWA eleven years ago – I cannot believe this is eleventh RWA; holy cow – I knew that most of the readers were women; I knew that most of the writers were women. I also did not know until I started attending RWA how many of the people who in editorial, marketing, publicity are also women.

Abby: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: The people who produce the books –

Abby: Yep.

Sarah: – are very often women, and yet you guys come up against this line of guys in pleated khaki pants –

Abby: [Laughs]

Sarah: – who are above you on some level who are going to be like, we don’t understand.

Abby: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: And it’s like, your whole professional job is to break through the khaki pants line, basically, wherever it is.

Abby: Yeah.

Sarah: If it’s the retailer or if it’s the –

Abby: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – if it’s the executive department or if it’s some other line, you’ve got to break through the line.

Abby: It’s true, and I feel like that is happening. I mean, one of the things that I like working for Simon & Schuster is that we are led by a very strong, thoughtful, smart woman, Carolyn Reidy –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Abby: – and I just think that’s cool! You know –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Abby: – it’s great to see a woman in the line, you know – no khaki pants here!

Sarah: Nope! Nope! Nope!

Abby: It’s a pleasure to see a woman at the highest –

Sarah: Yeah!

Abby: – the highest point in our company. And indeed, she has always been very respectful of the power of the romance buyer –

Sarah: Yeah.

Abby: – and reader and also, I think that along the chain, too, when I think about the sales reps we’re working with and the book buyers and the –

Sarah: Yeah.

Abby: – account managers –

Sarah: And the librarians.

Abby: – are also –

Sarah: Yeah.

Abby: – are also, you know, women are moving up and up and up, so I’m happy to see that, and perhaps the economic power of romance in some way contributed to that as –

Sarah: Yeah.

Abby: – well as I hope just in general. We’re trying to get –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Abby: – tiny bit more enlightened as we go; who knows?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Abby: But yeah, I think that’s kind of special, and –

Sarah: It is.

Abby: – I think that maybe –

Sarah: Definitely makes our gathering special.

Abby: Yeah! I think it really contributes to the, the sense of community at an event like this –

Sarah: Yes.

Abby: – because – [laughs] – ‘cause all of us, in some way, have had to deal with being dismissed –

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Abby: – and yet have this confidence, and this, if you, if you falter – because, again, it can be an isolating experience to be out there writing your book and not, maybe you’re not on the publishing train yet, or you’re like, where do I get my feedback? Or I don’t even know if I want to share this with someone yet – to come to an event like this feels empowering, and –

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Abby: – and exhausting and like, oh my gosh, what are we doing? But the power of seeing all these other women who are celebrating and supporting the art and the business of romance –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Abby: – is, I think, really inspiring and energizing.

Sarah: It is really, it really is energizing.

Abby: Yeah.

Sarah: Especially when you get a group of people together who all love something that is part of a very isolating –

Abby: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – process. I mean, reading is a, often a very solitary thing. You can do reading with other people, but ultimately it’s just you and the book.

Abby: Yep.

Sarah: And you get us all in a room where we all realize, oh, we all love the same thing –

Abby: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – you have enough for many hours of talking.

Abby: Yes. And finally, you’re with people who have probably read the same books!

Sarah: Mm-hmm!

Abby: I mean, how many times otherwise, you could be talking to a book group in your home time or whatever, and everybody might love reading, but they’re reading the latest, I don’t know, the latest Ruth Ware or –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Abby: – Ask Me Maybe or Three Women or whatever the book du jour, and you’re like, oh my gosh, but did you read the newest Alyssa Cole?

Sarah: Blink, blink…blink, blink. Who now?

Abby: Yes, exactly.

Sarah: Who now?

Abby: And you’re like, trust me, you’d love it –

Sarah: But it’s romance.

Abby: – but it’s romance, and they’re like, oh, I don’t really read romance, and you’re like, what? You have a problem with good books?

Sarah: My other question for you – and I will take this out if you cannot answer it – is Mass Market paperback dying?

Abby: I will attempt to answer it tactfully.

Sarah: So yes.

Abby: So –

[Laughter]

Abby: I didn’t say that.

Sarah: No, you did not say that. Sarah said that.

Abby: I, it is absolutely challenging right now, but I had a conversation with a Mass Market book buyer – I mean, not a consumer, an account –

Sarah: Account buyer.

Abby: – this morning –

Sarah: Right.

Abby: – who was like, what’s going on, because we are, you know, we’re getting them from some publishers and not from others, and, and so I am not going to put a nail in the coffin yet.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Abby: And honestly, when e-books first were, like, taking off like crazy I thought, oh, well, that’s the end of Mass Market, ‘cause –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Abby: – why bother?

Sarah: ‘Cause the profit margin on a Mass Market is quite small.

Abby: It’s so small, and that is the thing: to get, to make a Mass Market make sense, you have to ship masses of copies!

Sarah: Oh, so that’s also part of the mass in Mass Market. Yeah!

Abby: A little bit. The idea is, like, your, you, the volume makes up for the lower price point.

Sarah: Exactly!

Abby: And when the volume is not big enough to make up for that, then, you know, a publisher has to look at their bottom line and say, well, this makes more sense to do as a Trade paperback.

Sarah: Which is why I see so many –

Abby: Yeah.

Sarah: – more writers moving into Trade.

Abby: It’s, that’s part of our decision, certainly, but the other thing that we’re finding, and it kind of arose in the wake of the rise of the indie-published author?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Abby: Because a number of authors, many authors, started self-publishing or indie publishing e-books, and then their authors were, or their readers were like, I love this; I want a keeper! You know, you read it in e –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Abby: – and if you love it enough you want something for your keeper shelf.

Sarah: It becomes an artifact, a tangible representation –

Abby: And it’s – it is; it’s an objet of sorts.

Sarah: Yes, it is!

Abby: And when they get a print copy, it’s not a Mass Market. It’s Trade paperback –

Sarah: It’s Trade.

Abby: – because to do it yourself, and now I feel like there’s a generation of readers – on the younger side, but not, like, millennial –

Sarah: Yeah.

Abby: – I mean, not babies, but who –

Sarah: Yeah.

Abby: – read in e but also print, but to them, the Mass Market is not the default format for the genre.

Sarah: It’s Trade.

Abby: It’s Trade!

Sarah: Or hardcover.

Abby: And They’re Like – And If They See A Mass market –

Sarah: They’re like, oh!

Abby: – they’re like, it’s a little gross –

Sarah: It’s flimsy.

Abby: – which, it’s ‘cause it feels flimsy! And the paper is different, and it’s not as bright, you know –

Sarah: No.

Abby: – and it’s sort of –

Sarah: It’s a different production value.

Abby: You know, and so it, it is made more cheaply so that it can be sold more cheaply –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Abby: – but there is not an automatic –

Sarah: And it doesn’t weigh as much; it’s easier to ship. Yeah.

Abby: Yeah, I mean, honestly, I still, I love a Mass Market because I have to commute on a subway, and I am not very balanced, and so I like to hold on with one hand.

Sarah: Yeah!

Abby: It’s hard to hold, even a Trade is a little hard to manage –

Sarah: That’s hard with one hand.

Abby: – and turn those pages, you know? So a Mass Market is easier that way. I’m sure there are plenty of people like, girl, have you heard of e-books? But I also don’t – I, I like print.

Sarah: That’s fine!

Abby: I don’t, I don’t read a ton on my phone, say.

Sarah: I almost –

Abby: But I think that’s part of it.

Sarah: Yeah. And I also think that Trade paperbacks, for some readers, have become an object that they style.

Abby: They’re more Instagrammable.

Sarah: Yeah!

Abby: For sure.

Sarah: They’re, they’re Instagrammable, and then you match your book to your manicure. There’s –

Abby: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – the period of time in which you’re experiencing that book is longer.

Abby: Yeah.

Sarah: Like, for me, and I imagine for you, a book could be a day, maybe a couple hours, but for some readers, that book is going to be with them for enough time that they’re going to adjust –

Abby: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – a wardrobe or a manicure. It’s going to be an accessory for that time –

Abby: Yes.

Sarah: – and the Trade format works better for –

Abby: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – that kind of –

Abby: Yeah!

Sarah: – you know, basically, it’s not selfie, ‘cause they’re not all in the picture –

Abby: Right.

Sarah: – but it’s all, it’s self-, self-representation.

Abby: Self-expression, yeah.

Sarah: Thank you! That’s what I was trying to go for.

Abby: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: Did you know, by the way, that Costco has the venti-size paperbacks? That’s what I call them. You know the tall, stretched-out –

Abby: The taller – we call them Premium paperbacks.

Sarah: All right, those are called ventis.

Abby: I love it!

Sarah: I mean, they’re venti size!

Abby: They’re now called ventis; #venti. I’m in for it.

Sarah: Yeah, they’re venti-size, but I saw them –

Abby: I love it.

Sarah: – in Costco; I’m like, they brought back the venti! ‘Cause I saw it in grocery stores –

Abby: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – years ago. I saw a bunch of tall, skinny Noras –

Abby: Yep.

Sarah: – and – but this one was Nora Roberts’s last one – I think Shelter in Place – like, a Clive Cussler –

Abby: Yeah.

Sarah: – James Patterson –

Abby: Male thrillers have done well in that size –

Sarah: In the venti size.

Abby: – ‘cause that’s also a very popular airport size.

Sarah: Yeah!

Abby: And so the –

Sarah: It’s tall enough that you can see it –

Abby: – business dude, the khaki pants traveler –

Sarah: Yep!

Abby: – who’s like, eh, I’m not going to look at a spreadsheet this flight. Sure, I’ll pick up –

Sarah: This.

Abby: – and it, whatever book has a helicopter on the front of it. You know.

Sarah: Yeah, that is exploding. Exploding helicopter books.

Abby: Yep, totally.

Sarah: Exactly.

Abby: Which is a metaphor in our business.

Sarah: With your work, in both Editorial and in Marketing –

Abby: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – what are the things that you still absolutely love about working in romance publishing? ‘Cause you wouldn’t stay if you don’t love it, even though it’s a really hard job, right?

Abby: Right. It’s still, I, I started, I thought I was going to be a professor.

Sarah: Oh, I had that same goal!

Abby: Right?

Sarah: And then there, I like, wait, there’s only five tenure jobs?

Abby: Yeah. And also, I wrote half a dissertation – on romance novels!

Sarah: [Gasps] No!

Abby: Oh yeah! Yeah, yeah. I was arguing that romance was proto-feminist and not anti-feminist, and, like, this sort of seminal, one of the texts that I used as I was writing my diss was – I’m going to get it backwards – Dangerous Men and Adventurous Women? Or the other –

Sarah: Yes!

Abby: – the Jenny Crusie and –

Sarah: Yes, Jayne Ann Krentz, and Crusie’s in there.

Abby: – and Jayne Ann Krentz and Crusie – yes.

Sarah: Laura Kinsale is in there.

Abby: Yes. It’s wonderful. Basically, it’s a collection of essays written by successful romance authors of the time, and it’s a feminist look at, at the genre.

Sarah: And it, and it’s interesting, ‘cause if you read it now, there’s some parts of it that do not age well?

Abby: It’s not super intersectional, and it’s not –

Sarah: Oh! There is no intersection.

Abby: Yeah, there’s some – yeah!

Sarah: There is just one road.

Abby: Yeah.

Sarah: It is one road, and it is a very white road, but –

Abby: Yeah

Sarah: – the, it is both a, a product that doesn’t always age well –

Abby: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – and then there are still some parts of it where I’m like, wow. Like, I still think about that Laura Kinsale argument, where she makes the argument that the person who, with whom the reader’s identifying is the hero, not the heroine.

Abby: Mm.

Sarah: And that’s part of what explains the, the, the great popularity of Fabio and the single male covers.

Abby: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: Because it wasn’t that we were aspiring to be with this person; we were aspiring to have the agency of that person.

Abby: Yeah, and I think agency is the key –

Sarah: Oh, it totally is!

Abby: – the key element of the romance story entirely.

Sarah: Absolutely!

Abby: And for me, one of the things that I was talking about in my diss and that I find rewarding in romance is that it models, it models a world in which a woman’s emotional experience is valued and deserving of fulfillment.

Sarah: Yes.

Abby: And I mean, if you think about it even in terms of, like, the trope of the mom in commercials where Mom is such a giver! She does everything for everything else. She needs a piece of chocolate to take some time for herself. And I’m like, yeah, Mom also needs to, you know, have an orgasm. Like –

Sarah: Yeah.

Abby: I’m suddenly like, am I allowed to say – ? I feel, I assume I’m allowed to say this on this podcast. But yeah.

Sarah: Oh there’s, there’s no FCC oversight here.

Abby: [Laughs] Excellent!

Sarah: Seen the name of my website? Cuss all you want!

Abby: Perfect! And so not just that, oh, isn’t that nice that she fell in love with a man? It’s like, no, she, it’s that the man fell in love with the woman that she is, and she was seen –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Abby: – and that her needs were privileged and fulfilled.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Abby: Like, there’s, you know, there’s not a, you landed him, and you just had to play by the rules.

Sarah: Mm-mm.

Abby: It was, he loves you because you didn’t, you know, and anyway, I think – that’s, I think, what I love about the genre in general are the ways in which the writers of this genre challenge the status quo?

Sarah: Yeah.

Abby: And how this genre blends fun escapist fantasy and genuine, like, real-world issues –

Sarah: Yeah.

Abby: – in the same book that lets, it almost lets you emotionally or mentally practice – ugh! I can’t believe she had to do that, how, how you will talk to your boss about something that, that didn’t happen for you, or getting your next raise, or –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Abby: – maybe it’s just –

Sarah: Right.

Abby: – suddenly your connection and your empathy for this character who is getting short shrift and then turns it around makes you realize –

Sarah: Oh!

Abby: – wait, maybe I need to demand more of that in my own life?

Sarah: Yeah.

Abby: And –

Sarah: It rewards you for having ambition and agency –

Abby: Yes!

Sarah: – and pursuing agency.

Abby: Yes. Absolutely. And I think we need as many models of that as we can, because it’s, you know, how many studies have shown, like when you’re looking for a job and a man will see a job posting with ten requirements and have three of them and be like, yeah, that’s close enough; I might as well ask.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Abby: And a woman will have nine out of ten and be like, well, I don’t have that tenth, so –

Sarah: Yeah.

Abby: – maybe I shouldn’t. And I think anything that we consume –

Sarah: Yes.

Abby: – you know, that encourages us to be like, yeah, you should, girl! Like –

Sarah: Yeah! Go for it!

Abby: – is a good thing.

Sarah: Yeah.

Abby: And I’ve loved, more recently, because I’m fairly new to the Marketing side – I spent, I’ve spent most of my career thus far in Editorial, and it’s been great seeing the evolution of successful stories and successful voices in romance, and in publishing in general, because we certainly, of course, still have a publishing-so-white problem, and, I mean –

Sarah: Oh, just a bit.

Abby: Just a little bit, yeah.

Sarah: Just a little bit.

Abby: So it’s been nice to see the khaki pants going, but we definitely need more diversity, and I think that in addition to the fact that we’re starting to see some more diversity in books produced, the conversation is also encompassing who is inside –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Abby: – the tower, you know.

Sarah: Yeah.

Abby: And starting, and it is slow going, and, you know, should have happened a long time ago, but I think that even the biggest publishing houses are, are trying to hire and promote mindfully?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Abby: And certainly as we look at building lists and stuff, that is a very relevant part of the conversation, and it’s, I think for all sometimes I’m like, Amazon is trying to kill us, you know, it’s, it can be challenging to have such a strong, a single channel. But –

Sarah: Entity that is so encompassing.

Abby: Exactly.

Sarah: Oh yeah, and everyone, as I’ve said to you, everyone takes their turn in the Amazon toilet.

Abby: Yeah. [Laughs] Yes!

Sarah: Everybody takes a turn!

Abby: It’s very true! It’s very true. But the one thing Amazon has taught us is data is power!

Sarah: Oh!

Abby: And –

Sarah: It is so true.

Abby: – I think, you know, publishing before that was a series of hunches, and so the decision-making was being done by, well, what has worked for us in the past?

Sarah: Do what you’ve always done –

Abby: And –

Sarah: – get what you’ve always had.

Abby: – then every now and then, like, you’d be like, this thing is crazy! I’ve never seen anything like it! But somehow we love it enough, and suddenly you get – I mean, back in the day, like, The Nanny Diaries. Who would, you know, who would guess that it spawned this rise of sort of like confessional, behind-the-scenes books that – and that one was like, who would know? What Amazon did do and bring into the light in a big way with, by opening the means of production, is prove the existence of audiences that I think we, you know, it would have been nigh impossible to convince the industry existed.

Sarah: Yeah.

Abby: Because at heart, one of the challenges always – and as you say, we’re, you know, cruise ships, not speedboats, so even when there is willingness to change inside, we’re not nimble.

Sarah: No.

Abby: You have to, there, there’s so many moving pieces that you have to all turn at the same time. It’s like turning in a Jenga tower.

Sarah: Yeah.

Abby: Right?

Sarah: Yeah.

Abby: And you’re like, sure, just rotate that ninety degrees, and you’re like, mmm –

Sarah: No, that’s a lot of –

Abby: – okay.

Sarah: – no, it’s not that simple.

Abby: And so it can be challenging, but at heart, we just want to sell books, and so it takes sometimes a while to learn how you might be getting in your own way of doing that?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Abby: Or simply to have enough people at the right levels to say, but have you seen this?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Abby: And look how it’s doing. How can we use this or emulate it? But at least – you know, the very first step is that you have to get people to acknowledge at least that –

Sarah: That there’s a problem.

Abby: – there is a problem and that in the long term it is vital to our, our own survival to, to solve it.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Abby: You know?

Sarah: Yeah.

Abby: It’s not just because, well, it would be good if we did that. You have to speak money –

Sarah: Yes.

Abby: – and you’re like, well, look what’s out there. You know, look at these books that are selling; people want this. Go and get the money! Like –

Sarah: Yeah.

Abby: – make it happen! It will pay off!

Sarah: Do you not like the money?

Abby: Yeah!

Sarah: I know it’s harder, because it’s different from what you’ve always done, but the money is still there!

Abby: Right. Right.

Sarah: So you, you used to have a podcast!

Abby: I did! I did!

Sarah: You had XOXO After Dark!

Abby: Yes, yes! The XOXO After Dark podcast. This was part of, this was part of my transition to Marketing from Editorial, because –

Sarah: ‘Cause you don’t acquire at all, right?

Abby: Not really. I’m, I in theory could acquire, but – and I have a couple of authors that I kept who I still work with, but to be honest, boy, Marketing takes a lot of time!

Sarah: You don’t say!

Abby: I don’t know if you’ve heard!

Sarah: I have heard this is the case. Yeah!

Abby: And, yes. And everything does, but I feel like it would be really challenging to take on a new novelist, say, because I think that the editor can and should be really instrumental in helping an, a writer, a fiction writer with their long game and thinking about, here’s your career, and I don’t know that I could do that part of the job justice –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Abby: – for someone who ultimately wants to be maybe a, you know, a book-a-year or two-book-a-year even writer and still do my other job –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Abby: – so I’m more of a probably one-off girl if that happens, but –

Sarah: Right.

Abby: – but never say never!

Sarah: Never say never.

Abby: But anyway, XOXO After Dark was a site that we developed kind of, again, as we were developing an e-book program –

Sarah: Right.

Abby: – and it was leaning heavily on romance with a bit of women’s fiction and, and adjacent –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Abby: – thrown in, because that market is so vibrant on the internet –

Sarah: Yep!

Abby: – and we needed a place to show ‘em off!

Sarah: Yep, I’m aware!

Abby: So we built this website, and we started posting a few times a week and then more and then more, and it spun off. We did some YouTube videos, some of which are still out there – [laughs] – and one of the things we got the chance to do was a podcast –

Sarah: Yep!

Abby: – and I loved it. I did it with two of my editor pals, Lauren McKenna and Kate Dresser, who were also with me.

Sarah: You guys were so good. You’re so good at it!

Abby: And it made us really mu-, intense. We were always, like, collegial friends, but it made us, like, really good friends, and then we had our, she was at the time the Senior Manager in our Marketing Department, Diana Velasquez, who was our producer –

Sarah: Yeah.

Abby: – and would often, she would, at our end-of-year roundups she would, like, find all those things, and she did all the metadata so we could just sit around and talk, and I loved doing that, and it was with the help of CBS Studios, because CBS owns Simon & Schuster, and –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Abby: – they basically were, like, looking into, do we want to generate more original content? And so they let us play, and we wound up doing, actually, I think just over two hundred episodes. Like –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Abby: – we did a lot.

Sarah: You have –

Abby: They let me do a lot.

Sarah: You have a backlist.

Abby: I do!

Sarah: You have a back catalog!

Abby: It’s kind of living out there in, it’s on, like, now it’s on, like, anchor.fm, because XOXO has sunsetted, so –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Abby: – and the –

Sarah: When did that become a verb?

Abby: I don’t know, but it sounds very tech-y and market-y, so now I say it.

Sarah: Doesn’t it? Yeah. [Laughs]

Abby: Basically, I heard, I heard our Vice President of, like, Corporate Digital Marketing say it about something, and I was like –

Sarah: Mm?

Abby: – oh.

Sarah: That sounds –

Abby: And it sounded nicer than died. [Laughs]

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah, it’s, it’s come to an end.

Abby: Yes. Yes.

Sarah: I, I recently had to write an onboarding guide, and I’m like –

Abby: Oh.

Sarah: – when did onboarding –

Abby: That’s another thing!

Sarah: – become a word?

Abby: And someone asked me about, like, so what’s your onboarding process? And I’m like –

Sarah: Uh, what?

Abby: – are we at sea?

Sarah: Yeah! That’s exactly it! Like –

Abby: I’m like, I just tell you stuff.

Sarah: – when did we become all nautical?

Abby: I don’t know. Yeah.

Sarah: When, when did we become, like, a whole nautical euphemism place?

Abby: I know, and I feel like I should have a lei and an umbrella drink if we’re going to go –

Sarah: At least a hat, right?

Abby: Yeah.

Sarah: A little jaunty hat?

Abby: Exactly! I, yeah, I could use a hat, for sure.

Sarah: So XOXO has sunsetted, but you’re still out there. I know I can still find it on some podcatcher apps.

Abby: You can, absolutely. Like, it still lives on, because we didn’t eliminate any of it, but it’s a little, depending on where you go, some links may be broken because the, CBS’s pod-, it sold off its podcasting arm, so –

Sarah: Mm-hmm. So the files themselves go –

Abby: We, we transferred them all to, like, I think they may be on both SoundCloud and Anchor, but they’re –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Abby: – they’re around somewhere, and in the, with my vast spare time, one of these days I want to sort of clean ‘em up and see that they’re still working and stuff, but they were lots of fun, and we talked about books, of course, and romance –

Sarah: Of course!

Abby: – but also – and we had lots of great author interviews, but also just stuff that was relevant to our lives as women –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Abby: – and we were in kind of different stages. It sort of just worked out. Lauren and I are of similar ages, though I’m a little bit older than she is, and Kate is a millennial –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Abby: – and so we were all sort of, sometimes we were talking about dating versus marriage. I’ve told stories about my husband, and –

Sarah: Yeah.

Abby: – he doesn’t listen to the podcast, so I told some stories about my husband.

[Laughter]

Abby: You know, Lauren would talk about, she, you know, about having kids, ‘cause she’s a mother –

Sarah: Yeah.

Abby: – of a young child, where I am someone who never wanted kids –

Sarah: Right.

Abby: – and, you know, Kate would, would tell us stories of the, the hell that is dating in New York City –

Sarah: Yeah, oh yes.

Abby: – or whatever. We have, I think our best-performing episode ever was “The IUD Will Set You Free,” where we talked about our birth control choices!

Sarah: Yep!

Abby: And it was, it was great fun, and I think –

Sarah: It was so real!

Abby: – that the goal was always – and just the way we were saying that romance feels very relevant to a lot of things that affect your life?

Sarah: Yes. Yes.

Abby: We were like, romance readers want to hear about books and stuff, but also, we think they’re interested in this, because –

Sarah: Oh, no question.

Abby: – it’s so, your books and your life are so intertwined, and so we always just tried to talk about stuff that we were curious about that we figured –

Sarah: Yeah!

Abby: – people like us would be too.

Sarah: And it, it, it was a great podcast.

Abby: Thank you!

Sarah: It is sad that it, it, it had to end.

Abby: I know.

Sarah: That the sunset came.

Abby: It, yes, I –

Sarah: Like, the other thing about sunsetting –

Abby: – I have belief that the sun will rise again one day, somehow, but –

Sarah: For podcasting especially, romance as a genre in common between two people breaks down a lot of boundaries, because we already know that we’re both reading books about intimacy –

Abby: Mm-hmm!

Sarah: – and vulnerability, and we’re both, and we know we’re reading books that are going to create and elicit a deep emotional response –

Abby: Yep.

Sarah: – so we already have this sort of barrier breakdown, because we have all of these things in common. It creates a way for people to be very honest –

Abby: Yes.

Sarah: – and I love that when you end up in a conversation with romance readers who, you may not know anything about them –

Abby: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – you could very easily end up talking about your IUD! Totally normal!

Abby: For sure!

Sarah: Oh yeah! I had a whole long conversation about chafing options, ‘cause it’s humid and gross.

Abby: Oh, yeah.

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Abby: Yeah.

Sarah: From, like, okay, so Jockey Skimmies are way better than, what are the ones that try to kill you? Spanx.

Abby: Spanx, oh! Yeah. And I’ve been getting served – which I can’t decide if this is useful or rude on Facebook’s part, because I’ve been getting so many ads for (a) there are a million new brands of, like, little bike –

Sarah: Oh, knitwear! Yeah.

Abby: – little bike shorty things, and I’m like –

Sarah: I love them! Not only because I am just generally sweaty, but I feel so much more covered, like, secure?

Abby: Yes.

Sarah: Like, I got shorts on. If –

Abby: Yeah.

Sarah: – some, if my skirt gets caught on some –

Abby: Oh yeah, if you have a Marilyn moment on the subway, which is not –

Sarah: Yeah, you’re fine!

Abby: – you know –

Sarah: It’s not uncommon!

Abby: Right.

Sarah: Or, you know, there’s, like, a car goes by and your skirt moves and stuff.

Abby: Mm-hmm!

Sarah: Like, I am not a duchess; I do not have weights in my hemline.

Abby: [Laughs] No. No.

Sarah: I like having on shorts underneath.

Abby: Yeah.

Sarah: Yep. And then some of the, some of the creams that are good for chafing, they double as makeup primer.

Abby: [Gasps]

Sarah: So if you need your makeup to not move, you can use anti-chafing cream, ‘cause it’s the same basic construction.

Abby: Astounding!

Sarah: And then, like, your face’ll be just pristine the whole day; it’s amazing.

Abby: Of course I think one of the things on our podcast, they had to teach me what a beauty blender was, so.

Sarah: I, someone had to teach me what one was too.

Abby: I was like, all, I was like, what is this pink egg thing? And they’re like, girl.

Sarah: That’s a beauty blender!

Abby: And I’m like, I have a brush! Don’t we use brushes?

Sarah: Nooo.

Abby: And they’re like, no, we don’t anymore.

Sarah: I –

Abby: Can’t I just let myself go? Isn’t it time? [Laughs]

Sarah: Nooo. I, I hired somebody this year to teach me how to do my makeup, because my face and my skin changed –

Abby: Yeah.

Sarah: – and I wear glasses –

Abby: Mm!

Sarah: – so any eye makeup I put on –

Abby: My God, the glasses!

Sarah: – disappears behind my glasses! I’m like, what do I do?

Abby: Yes!

Sarah: I was in a wedding this year; I had Book Lovers Con, RWA; and I was doing a bunch of events, and I was like, I’m not hiring a makeup artist to do, like, a book event, but I also know that I’m going to be photographed and –

Abby: Yep.

Sarah: – I want to look somewhat decent, so I hired up a makeup artist.

Abby: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: She was amazing. She taught me how to do my makeup so that it shows up with my glasses on and I don’t look like, I don’t have, like, fuchsia eyebrows –

Abby: Yep.

Sarah: – but I have something on, and I learned so much about how to use that beauty blender, including using it for applying powder.

Abby: Oh!

Sarah: The powder doesn’t go anywhere. It stays. [Whispers] It’s amazing!

Abby: [Whispers] Wow!

Sarah: [Whispers] I know! I don’t know anything –

Abby: This has been a very service-y podcast already for me.

Sarah: I know! We are just doing all kinds of excellent –

Abby: This is a service!

Sarah: Oh my gosh!

Abby: [Laughs]

Sarah: And then, like, I take selfies, and I’m like, how did I do with my eyes? She goes, oh, your brow bone, it looks great! Yes!

Abby: Ohhh, that is awesome! That, I should do that. Also, I feel like I need to hire someone, a selfie trainer.

Sarah: Oh, I have no selfie game. You know, I –

Abby: Like, I don’t under-, like, the, some people, they can just, they’re like, ooh, selfie! Bloop! And they have one little, crazy, it takes them a second and a half, and it’s perfect.

Sarah: I always look like I’m about to sneeze –

Abby: I always look like –

Sarah: – no matter what happens!

Abby: – I’m, my, like, I’m like, I don’t know, somehow my face is this giant plane of, like –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Abby: – cheek and, like, squinty eye –

Sarah: Me too!

Abby: – and I’m all, and I always, when I’m with my husband I make him take it, because his arms are longer –

Sarah: His arm are long! [Laughs]

Abby: – and he’s like, but then my head looks too big! I’m like, shut up; it’s me we care about.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Abby: Although I have the, I have, like, the airbrush app on my phone to, like, just kind so smooth you out a little bit?

Sarah: Oooh!

Abby: And I took a – little, little tiny brag, ‘cause old but cool: Gordon and I were at the Blondie/Elvis Costello concert on Wednesday –

Sarah: [Gasps] How was it?

Abby: – ‘cause that’s how we roll, ‘cause we’re awesome.

Sarah: Is it good?

Abby: It was amaze! It was amaze.

Sarah: [Squees] That’s incredible!

Abby: And I took a selfie while, you know, we were kind of in between the acts, and I said, oh, here, look, I’ll Facetune it! And he was like, the wha-? And so I just, I just, like, a quick smoothed it out, and I, and then I, like, skinnied myself a little bit –

Sarah: Yeah.

Abby: – because I was like, look. And he’s like, no! What is? I don’t like! I don’t like that! That, don’t post that! That’s look weird! I look like a wax person, and I like your face normal! And I was like, aw, sweetie!

Sarah: What a good husband!

Abby: I know, but I posted it anyway, ‘cause I still looked good!

[Laughter]

Abby: And he’s not on social media!

Sarah: You don’t understand, sir; selfie and reality are very different realms here.

Abby: I know.

Sarah: There is an ad that keeps going by in Times Square that I see when I’m in the bar at the hotel of these women wearing this long-lasting lipstick, and they keep taking selfies and then kissing their phones, because –

Abby: Oh!

Sarah: – and I’m like, first of all, you –

Abby: ‘Cause it’s not on the thing.

Sarah: – your phone is dirty; don’t kiss your phone. Second of all, why are you kissing your phone? And third, well, this is not selling me lipstick.

Abby: [Whispers] I know!

Sarah: It’s making me want to study their selfie posture. Like, how are they doing that?

Abby: Yes!

Sarah: How, how is it that their arms –

Abby: How did they get the entire group when they – I don’t know.

Sarah: I, I, I think that there are some people who walk among us who have extendable, telescoping arms –

Abby: Mmm.

Sarah: – and they just haven’t told us.

Abby: That’s, well, that would make me feel better about my own inadequacies.

Sarah: Right? I mean, I’m, I, I am very short-limbed. Like, I think my inseam –

Abby: Right.

Sarah: – when I get pants hemmed, is like twenty-one inches or something ri- – I’m very, very petite in my arms and legs, so I know I can’t take a good selfie!

Abby: Right! I know!

Sarah: [Whispers] But I think they have telescoping arms.

Abby: That must be it. I think you’re right!

Sarah: Doo-doo-doo-doo-doo! Go-go-gadget arms!

Abby: All right, you heard it here first: exclusive –

Sarah: Yep! Telescoping arms!

Abby: Yeah!

[Laughter]

Sarah: So with your whole career in romance and all the things you do with romance, what are you reading or excited about that you want to mention? Just, just start naming books, because I know you know of at least two.

Abby: I know so many, and –

Sarah: What is, what is, what is, like, big right now for you guys? Is it, is, is romantic suspense sunsetting to make room for women’s fiction as, as –

Abby: [Laughs]

Sarah: What is women’s fiction doing? Is it the sunrise, or is it noon?

Abby: [Sings] Sunrise, sunset!

Sarah: [Laughs]

Abby: No, I think it’s, I mean, it’s definitely –

Sarah: It’s high noon.

Abby: – it’s sunblock time. I mean, like, it’s definitely –

Sarah: Sunblock time.

Abby: – it’s, you know, high noon, or it’s two o’clock in the afternoon. I think this is also the season for it, because –

Sarah: Oh yeah!

Abby: – spring/summer, you’re women’s fiction –

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Abby: – and then it cools for fall. We take a little rest and –

Sarah: Yep, and then we get creepy shit.

Abby: – but for sure, well, I will take shameless advantage to plug an author that I love but also is one of the two authors I kept.

Sarah: Bring!

Abby: So editor – Kristin Harmel.

Sarah: Bring it.

Abby: She does, she does a variety of things, but she’s doing his-, historical women’s fiction for us: World War II France, so that’s a historical story with a sort of contemporary story as well. It’s that thing –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Abby: – and it’s such a trend right now –

Sarah: Parallel storylines?

Abby: – in the vein of, you know, The Nightingale and Martha Hall Kelly and Pam Jenoff, and her new book, which is out in just a couple of weeks, is called The Winemaker’s Wife, and it is set in the Champagne region.

Sarah: The cover is gorgeous.

Abby: It’s so beautiful, I have to say.

Sarah: Oh!

Abby: And –

Sarah: The art director and the designer just –

Abby: Kudos.

Sarah: – hit it out of the park, that cover.

Abby: Kudos to them. It’s just, it’s this lush, leafy bower with hints of purple and –

Sarah: People walking away –

Abby: Yep!

Sarah: – into this beautiful light.

Abby: Yeah, it’s really – and the nice thing, it turns out, is when you write a book set in the Champagne region, you have to go there and study a lot of champagne?

Sarah: Oh –

Abby: And the nice thing about editing that book is then your author sends you champagne –

Sarah: Oh!

Abby: – so I’m like, where do we want to go next?

Sarah: How do you feel about chocolate?

Abby: I know, exactly, right? I’m like, hmm!

Sarah: I think the, The Truffle Hunter’s Cousin.

Abby: Yes. Yes! Kristin, write it down!

Sarah: [Laughs]

Abby: Write it down! I’ll sign you up!

Sarah: The Truffle Hunter’s Best Friend’s Brother Passed Out at Thirty-One Flavors Last Night!

[Laughter]

Abby: Yes. We’re ready; we’re ready.

Sarah: This poor woman is going to be like, what?!

Abby: Oh, no, she’s used to it.

[Laughter]

Abby: So that’s a plug. So it’s great if you –

Sarah: Is it tragic? Is it sad? Is it –

Abby: It’s, it has both –

Sarah: – comedic?

Abby: – highs and lows. So there is, it is deeply emotional, but ultimately it’s uplifting at the end.

Sarah: Good to know!

Abby: I mean, World War II –

Sarah: Super not joyous –

Abby: – there’s always some dark parts.

Sarah: – happy, funny skip time, yeah.

Abby: And it’s very much about the relationships, the relationships of these key people. So it is historical fiction, but it really, it definitely is satisfying that women’s fiction –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Abby: – you want a great, complex relationship story.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Abby: So that is wonderful. Of course always happy to shout out Christina Lauren, who I’m sure a lot of your readers are very familiar with.

Sarah: Oh yes.

Abby: The Unhoneymooners, which came out in May –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Abby: – and has the best – talk about great covers – the sunny yellow cover that just makes you feel happy?

Sarah: Oh, it just pops at you from across the room!

Abby: It screams at you and says, and we’ll take another piña colada, thank you very much. And I’m like, okay!

Sarah: Yeah. It is very much a, like, a resort color!

Abby: Yeah.

Sarah: You only wear that color on vacation!

Abby: No, exactly! It looks like a Tommy Bahama shirt kind of, you know? It’s like –

Sarah: It does! You’re totally right!

Abby: And it makes sense, ‘cause this is a sort of enemies-to-lovers, stuck-in-paradise story, so.

Sarah: Yeah.

Abby: That one’s out now, and then in the fall –

Sarah: Do you edit – you don’t edit them.

Abby: I do, I do not.

Sarah: No.

Abby: I wish, but they are too prolific, and I would not be able to keep up. Kate Dresser edits them.

Sarah: Who has cloned herself, because they’re so prolific.

Abby: Basically, she’s going to have to. We need –

Sarah: There’s Kates Dresser.

Abby: – many Kates, yes.

Sarah: Kates Dresser. [Laughs]

Abby: Exactly. Exactly. And their next book will be out in the fall, and that is called Twice in a Blue Moon.

Sarah: Yes. It’s a gorgeous cover too.

Abby: And it’s very cute. And basically, that is, they’re, you know, they can do rom-com, they can do women’s fiction, they’re doing sort of both of that, and of course a lot of their fans found them with their Beautiful Bastard series –

Sarah: Right.

Abby: – so –

Sarah: Which is a lot hotter and a lot more explicit than what they’re writing now.

Abby: Yes. It’s true, it’s true, and they’re still fun and sexy, but it’s maybe less about the sex for sex and more about the emotion?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Abby: You know.

Sarah: They’re also, it’s funny to me, one of the things that I find so interesting about the inter-, the interaction between fandom and publishing and author is that we’re all becoming more fluent in each other’s languages, but publishing is especially becoming more fluent in fandom language.

Abby: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: So, you know, we as readers can be like, okay, women’s fiction, women’s historical fiction: is this sad? Does it have a happy ending? Women’s fiction contemporary: is it a comedy or is it really angsty? Are we talking, like, lots of infertility and injured children –

Abby: Yep.

Sarah: – and hospitalizations and parents dying and all of this really terrible stuff that, that often falls on women’s shoulders? Or are we talking about women’s fiction like it’s a meet-cute comedy –

Abby: Right. Is it Bridget Jones or is it –

Sarah: – romance?

Abby: – whatever?

Sarah: Is it Bridget Jones –

Abby: Mm-hmm?

Sarah: – or is it The Nightingale? What are we talking about?

Abby: Yep.

Sarah: ‘Cause you can put those both under women’s fiction –

Abby: Yes. Yes.

Sarah: – although The Nightingale’s more historical.

Abby: Yeah.

Sarah: So the, the term is too broad –

Abby: It’s so true, and I love –

Sarah: – and it gets subdivided into, like –

Abby: Yeah.

Sarah: – fandom terms.

Abby: And I love that fans have really embraced tropes that I would have once expected to hear only when I used to work at Harlequin –

Sarah: Yeah.

Abby: – and you would know, oh, that’s a secret baby story or whatever –

Sarah: Right.

Abby: – but now I can hear a fan being like –

Sarah: There was only one bed, yeah.

Abby: – I love a second-chance-at-love story, you know?

Sarah: Yeah! Oh yeah.

Abby: And that is both how we would refer to it professionally, but also now –

Sarah: Yeah.

Abby: – as a reader and often depending on which, you know, particular Goodreads or LibraryThing or whatever you’re using or your own personal database of reading –

Sarah: Yeah.

Abby: – people will, will tag them with tropes like that too!

Sarah: Yeah.

Abby: And it’s really fascinating that the, just as in production, I think in reading and experiencing, the boundaries have really elided –

Sarah: Yeah.

Abby: – and, and I think it makes sense, because this was always a genre where some of the biggest authors in the genre started because they were like, well, I couldn’t find the book I wanted to read, so I had to write it.

Sarah: That’s what I did.

Abby: And – exactly!

Sarah: Yep.

Abby: Right? And I think that’s – why not, you know?

Sarah: Right?

Abby: Seize the, let’s seize the presses!

Sarah: Well, I mean, at this point it’s kind of like, all right, if this is really what you want to do, what’s stopping you?

Are there any other books you want to mention?

Abby: Oh my gosh, there’s so many to choose from. What else do I want to mention?

Sarah: What are you reading when you commute home?

Abby: When I commute, I listen to podcasts when I commute home –

Sarah: Ooh!

Abby: – and then I have, what is the last thing? Actually, what I have on my table right now that I’m reading is not a romance. It is The Last Book Party –

Sarah: Ooh!

Abby: – and it is set in, like, the louche sort of, I think, late ‘80s publishing world, and it’s a young publishing assistant who has struck up a sort of, friendship of sorts with an august writer who’s on, who is sunsetting a bit –

Sarah: Mm-hmm?

Abby: – and so she’s, her boss is his editor and never takes the guy’s calls, so she has become –

Sarah: His contact?

Abby: – connected to him, and then he invites her out to Martha’s Vineyard, I think, for a book party, and I assume all sorts of mayhem will ensue, but –

Sarah: Well, I mean, it’s –

Abby: I love a, like, old publishing story?

Sarah: Oh, back when –

Abby: It’s a little –

Sarah: – back in the day when it was very much a socialite profession?

Abby: When it was a hot mess. [Laughs] And that, and I think other than that, there’s so much in the Trade paperback kind of rom-com space that’s coming out and looks amazing right now. I still, and I’m so behind on everything is part of it, so I still want to read – and I think of them by covers. I’m like, it’s the pink book. Is it Red, White & Royal Blue?

Sarah: Red, White & Royal Blue is pink.

Abby: Yes!

Sarah: So is The Right Swipe, is pink and yellow.

Abby: Yes. I wanted to, I want to read that. I have too many, too many things on the pile, and then another total not-romance and also you all maybe have already read it, but I finally – I mostly read on vacation.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Abby: I love nothing better than to take a whole bag of books –

Sarah: Oh, I read, like –

Abby: – and then leave them in whatever hotel, and I’m like, my gift to you, strangers.

Sarah: Love it! I love checking the lender box on a, in a, in a resort.

Abby: It’s so great, ‘cause –

Sarah: So I, the one I went to in Mexico, there were Harlequins in Russian, Greek –

Abby: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – Spanish. It was, like, amazing! I loved it!

Abby: Yes. I read Circe finally.

Sarah: Ohhh!

Abby: The Madeline Miller?

Sarah: What did you think?

Abby: I loooved it. I loved it.

Sarah: That’s a, that’s like a woman burning it all down story.

Abby: It is, and for sure, that was all, like, brain-stretchy.

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Abby: Like, I felt like I’d had the best kind of sort of workout for my brain, and it didn’t hurt that we were, like, on a beach in Barbados, and I was like, yes, this is my private secret island, and I am a witch of power.

Sarah: Yes, this is my home.

Abby: It is so –

Sarah: Trespass and perish.

Abby: – wonderful and craft – it’s, it’s, for anyone who doesn’t know or hasn’t discovered yet, it’s a retelling of the Circe myth from Odysseus, but it starts with her beginnings and how she got to where she got, and it’s incredibly empowering and feminist and smart and also super readable. Like –

Sarah: Yeah.

Abby: – the, you pick up the book, and it can be a little daunting, especially if you don’t have a ton of time and you’re like –

Sarah: Yeah.

Abby: – but I felt like it was also a fast, compelling read. Like –

Sarah: Mm-hmm?

Abby: – it really is amazing. So thumbs up for that, even though it is not a romance per se, but –

Sarah: Per se.

Abby: – in the end, it is very, it’s, it’s sort of Circe’s I-choose-me –

Sarah: Yeah.

Abby: – story.

Sarah: Screw you!

Abby: Yeah. [Laughs]

Sarah: Get fucked.

Abby: Why not? Actually, that could, that sounds like it could be a romance series of its own somehow.

Sarah: What, Get Fucked?

Abby: Screw You will be book one.

Sarah: Yeah.

Abby: Get Fucked will be two, and –

Sarah: Get Fucked.

Abby: – Happy Ending will be book three.

Sarah: I love this.

Abby: Done and done.

Sarah: I love this plan. Is, are you going to become a packager now, so you come up with –

Abby: Perfect!

Sarah: – the plot and the outline and just go?

Abby: Yeah. That’s all I want to do, is I want to say words into the air and then make other people do all the heavy lifting of actually cre-, writing books. I will just be like, I’m kind of an idea girl, and then see how that goes.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Abby: Can I get someone to just pay me for that? [Laughs]

Sarah: Listen, I’ve had so many conversations in the past two days that are like, listen, when we’re queen –

Abby: Yes.

Sarah: – when we share the monarchy, this is what – when We are Empress –

Abby: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – of all We survey, this is what will happen.

Abby: Perfect. It works! And we’ll totally be fine sharing, because women working together, supporting each other, it’ll be a collective; it’s great.

Sarah: We can, we can work this together. We’ll be intersectionally collective and awesome.

Abby: Excellent.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Abby: Buy more books, people. Everybody enjoy.

Sarah: Yay, books!

Abby: [Laughs]

[music]

Sarah: And that brings us to the end of this episode. I hope you enjoyed our conversation, and I want to thank Abby Zidle for hanging out with me at RWA. You can find Abby online. Her Twitter and Instagram is really charming; it’s @AbZurdity, A-B-Z-U-R-D-I-T-Y, and of course I will have links if you’d like to follow her Instagram or her Twitter. She’s one of the most insightful people I know in publishing, so I hope you enjoyed this conversation as much as I did.

If you have questions or suggestions or things you’d like to ask me, sbjpodcast@gmail.com, or you can leave me a voicemail at 1-201-371-3272. It is always awesome to hear from you.

Today’s podcast is sponsored by Muff Stuff, book three in the Muffia series by Ann Royal Nicholas. Costly, coddled canines are missing all over the Southland. Sarah, a baking whiz and member of LA’s most dynamic women’s book club is a soon-to-be-single mom who’s about to get foreclosed upon thanks to her philandering ex-husband. Her son Nathaniel is being bullied at science camp, and his Ls sound like Ws. No wonder she’s having trouble getting through the Muffs’ latest read. Sarah launches a plan to save her house while building a baking goods empire, and before too long, things start looking up—her cookies are a hit, Nathaniel’s Ls are improving, and she meets a handsome widower who makes her feel sexy for the first time in years. But when she foils a plot to steal her family’s adopted French Bulldog and Muff Lauren’s Boston Terriers go missing in the middle of her Labor Day barbecue, it’s time for The Muffia to mobilize. With the assistance of a Palm Springs Magic Men Live! aficionado, a vengeful Pug owner and three Bichon Frises, the Muffs set off to nab the ‘nappers and discover that dog thieves come in surprising guises. Muff Stuff and all the books in the Muffia series can be found wherever books are sold, and you can find out more at annroyalnicholas.com.

Today’s podcast transcript is brought to you by Star Knight Errant: Thrust by A. K. Shelley. If you like Celia Kyle and Anna Hackett, you will love this sci-fi romance filled with action and passion. When Martian Air Science Engineer Cass Hedley takes a dare to use her new Artificial Intelligence system for a night of erotic release, there’s only one man she can imagine spending time with – the legendary comic book hero Star Knight Errant. She imagines strong hands, hard abs, and bubble baths, but her black market AI has another idea – an illegal fight club that will only end in her sexy companion’s death…or hers. When Evander Mór transports to an unknown desert planet, his mission changes. Instead of brokering a peace deal, he’ll figure out what backwater he’s landed on and enjoy a well-earned weekend off with a gorgeous scientist. But when things get hotter than a supernova between them, he discovers he only has eighteen hours to stop an AI bent on murder, convince Cass that he’s more than fiction, and find a way to cross the gulf between galaxies to bring her home. The Orange County Chapter of RWA gave this story the Charlotte Award for Emerging Writers in 2018, and author Anita Philmar says it hits all the buttons to excite and thrill. Star Knight Errant: Thrust by A. K. Shelley is on preorder now wherever books are sold and releases August 26th. Find out more at akshelley.com.

Hello, Patreon community! Thank you for being so awesome. If you would like to join the Patreon community, it would be excellent if you did; have a look at patreon.com/SmartBitches. If what we do is meaningful and helpful and helps get you through your week, thank you for joining us! And if you would like to support the show with a pledge of one dollar a month, patreon.com/SmartBitches. Your support for the show means everything, so thank you!

The music you are listening to is provided by Sassy Outwater. This is the Peatbog Faeries from their album Blackhouse. This track is called “The Dragon’s Apprentice.” I don’t know about you, but I am still looking for a really good story about an apprentice to a dragon. That would be pretty cool. Either way, you can find this album at Amazon or iTunes or wherever you like to buy your funky, funky music.

I will have links to all of the things that we talked about: Skimmies, chafing gel, beauty blenders, and, of course, XOXO After Dark. There aren’t any new episodes, but I will link specifically to “The IUD Will Set You Free,” and if you’re looking for a new podcast to binge on, I highly recommend it. And of course I will link to all of the books that we discussed.

And now, bad joke time. You ready for a bad joke? I’m ready for a bad joke. Are you ready? Okay, here we go.

Did you hear about the guy who won’t eat Atlantic cod? Like, at all.

Why won’t he eat Atlantic cod?

He has Pacific taste in seafood.

[Snorts] Pac- – [laughs]. There are so many Pacific jokes! That one just made me so charmed. That’s from bridgeheadprod. So, you know, how many other ways can you have Pacific taste? [Laughs more] I have Pacific taste in jokes, I can tell you that, although I don’t know which ocean they’re from. But whichever ocean is the worst one for bad jokes, because those are the jokes I love the most!

On behalf of everyone here, we wish you the very best of reading. Have a wonderful weekend, and we will see you back here next week.

[weaving music]