364. Love, Romance, and Beautiful Friendships: Melody and Erin from Heaving Bosoms Podcast

[music]

Sarah Wendell: Hello, and welcome to episode number 364 of Smart Podcast, Trashy Books. I am Sarah Wendell, and this week I am joined by Melody and Erin from the Heaving Bosoms podcast. It’s a Podcast-apalooza! There is so much laughter. The dog barks. It’s delightful, and basically, you’re going to learn that they are each other’s biggest fans, and if you need an episode to pick up your mood and toss it way, way up in the air, this will be that episode. Please do not miss the part where they reveal the secret ingredient to everything.

Please be aware that about minute thirty-five [35:00], we start talking about Old School romances, including a Viking romance by Johanna Lindsey which contains a nineteen-layer cake of problematic content, so if that’s not something that you are equipped to listen to today, just skip ahead at that point, probably about a minute to two minutes.

In addition to being on the show today, you can find the Heaving Bosoms podcast wherever you catch your podcasts, but of course I will link to it in the show notes, I will link to their Twitter, and I will link to the Facebook group that they mention in the event that you would like to join, because it sounds like a wonderful place.

This week’s podcast sponsor is More Muffia, book two in the Muffia series by Ann Royal Nicholas. Muffia book club member and celebrity talent agent Quinn is returning from business in Japan when she sees her fellow Muff’s former Israeli lover Udi, who’s supposed to be dead. Back in LA, the Muffs agree Udi’s probably alive, but it’s probably too dangerous to find out. Quinn’s resolution to become a better person – dump her married lover, commence online dating, and resume pole-dancing class – hits a road block when her boss Jamie confronts her with compromising photos and threatens to fire her. Now Quinn must find out who’s trying to sabotage her, urged on by former SEAL team member and borrowed, by-the-book private investigator Frank Sexton. While her fellow Muffs are busy with myriad antics and planning a swanky benefit for Alzheimer’s disease, Quinn finds herself falling for Frank, and as the eve of the benefit arrives, her deepest wishes might just come true! More Muffia and all the books in the Muffia series can be found wherever books are sold and are also available digitally. Find out more at annroyalnicholas.com.

Every episode of this podcast receives a transcript which is hand-compiled by garlicknitter. Thank you, garlicknitter. [My pleasure! – gk] Today’s podcast transcript is sponsored by The Winemaker’s Wife by Kristin Harmel. Fans of The Tattooist of Auschwitz and Martha Hall Kelly will love this heartfelt, compelling novel set in World War II France. When Ines marries Michel, owner of the storied champagne house Maison Chauveau, she never imagined their lives would be ripped asunder by the specter of war, but now they face a vital choice: do they join the Resistance against the Nazis occupying the region, or does that pose too great a risk for them and the people they love, including Celine, the Jewish wife of their chef de cave. The daring, sometimes rash decisions they make have consequences stretching long beyond the war to the present day, and a precious secret hidden in the champagne cellars of Chauveau. PopSugar calls The Winemaker’s Wife “…a heart-wrenching story about how one decision can change our lives, perfect for fans of The Nightingale.” Armando Lucas Correa, author of The German Girl, says, “Once you start reading this moving novel, you will not be able to put it down until you reach the last page.” The Winemaker’s Wife by Kristin Harmel is on sale now wherever books are sold. Find out more at simonandschuster.com.

If you have supported the show with a monthly pledge at our Patreon, thank you. You are a marvelous person, and you’re helping me make sure that every episode is accessible to everyone who wants to listen or read or both! And if you would like to have a look at our Patreon and join our community it would be most excellent if you did: patreon.com/SmartBitches. Monthly pledges begin at one dollar per month, and your support for the show means everything, so thank you very, very much.

I will have information at the end of the show about the music, I will have terrible jokes, and I of course will have links to everything we talk about in this episode, and there’s a lot.

But for now, let’s do this interview. Prepare for much silliness, affection, and laughter as we welcome Melody and Erin from Heaving Bosoms.

[music]

Sarah: Hi! Welcome! I’m so excited you guys are here!

Erin: Hi!

Melody: Oh my gosh, we’re –

Erin: I’m excited!

Melody: This is a fucking dream come true!

[Laughter]

Sarah: Okay, so, Melody, you’re going to be so damn tired of me, because you and I are talking again on Tuesday for this vocal thing, and I’m like –

Melody: No, I’m into it.

Sarah: You’re not going to do it?

Melody: I, no, I’m so into it! Are you kidding?

Sarah: Oh, you’re so into it! I, like, we’re seriously going to be tired of each other? Like, we’re going to run into each other in Target and be like, oh, it’s you.

[Laughter]

Melody: No way, no way! Not a, not a –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Melody: – not in this universe or anywhere else.

Erin: [Laughs]

Sarah: Okay, so this is the only awkward part. Would you please introduce yourselves and tell the people who will be listening, including my transcriptionist – [hi! – gk] – who has to learn to tell all of us apart, who you are and what you do.

Melody: Yeah, absolutely! Erin, do you want me to take this, or do you want to start?

Erin: I’m, I’m Erin.

Melody: [Laughs]

Erin: What do you want me to do? We’re, we do the Heaving Bosoms podcast! And –

Melody: Yeah! We’re –

Sarah: Yay!

Melody: – we’re the Heaving Bosoms, bitches!

[Laughter]

Sarah: Oh, gosh! All the ideas for swag have now flooded my brain.

Erin: Oh yeah!

Sarah: And as you know –

Melody: How much can we swear?

Sarah: Oh, as –

Erin: Oh yeah, we swear!

Sarah: – much as you want.

Melody: You guys – [laughs]

Erin: Oh good.

Melody: Sarah’s going to be sorry!

Sarah: First of all, have you seen the name of the website? Second of all, there’s no FCC oversight. Third of all –

Erin: Fair.

Sarah: – I’m sure you can probably hear my ice cubes; I have a – what is this? – this is an Amaretto Rose, so I have Amaretto, seltzer –

Melody: Mmm!

Sarah: – and lime juice sitting here, so life is good!

Melody: Thank you so much. I’m so excited. I just discovered White Claw, that vodka seltzer situation –

Sarah: [Gasps]

Melody: – and, like, I am a changed God-damn person. I almost reached for it instead of the iced coffee this morning –

Sarah: Oops.

Melody: – as a total accident –

Sarah: Oops!

Melody: – and, like, thank God I caught myself, ‘cause it was 9 a.m.! [Laughs]

Sarah: I was introduced to alcoholic ginger beer last night, and my life is a beautiful place.

Erin: Oh, wow. Incredible, right?

Melody: Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh, yeah. So we are Heaving Bosoms. We’re a podcast. We’re a best-friendship duo that decided to become a podcast, and we take each week or, like, you know, sometimes we do two books over a week, but we do deep dives into novels. We essentially tell you the plot and the awesome and what we find, like, weird or whatever as sort of a private book club, but that, you know, you have access to. And we go on comedy tangents and, like, you know, it’s a whole thing. So –

Sarah: It’s a whole thing!

Melody: – essentially –

Erin: That’s essentially what Heaving Bosoms is about! [Laughs]

Melody: And actually, it’s funny, ‘cause I’ve only done one – I don’t think, I think each of us have only done one episode with any kind of alcoholic –

Erin: Yes.

Melody: – situation involved. Most of the time –

Erin: And for both of us –

Melody: – we’re stone-cold sober.

Erin: Yeah, and it was a bad th-, like, for both of us –

Melody: Yeah!

Erin: – I think it was bad, ‘cause we kept, we try to recap meticulously the book, and both of us were like –

Melody: Right! [Laughs]

Erin: – where are we? What’s happening? Like –

[Laughter]

Erin: – for me, I was, like, much more subdued, so I was like, it’s fine. I don’t need to say anything about that page. And so –

[Laughter]

Melody: A lot of comedy podcasts are drunk the whole time. We find that we’re funnier –

Erin: I don’t know how they do it!

Melody: – and more on point when we’re sober.

[Laughter]

Sarah: I have very specific drinks that I will have while podcasting. Like, an Amaretto Rose –

Erin: Hmm.

Sarah: – is pretty low on alcohol. Otherwise, the first thing to go is my train of thought, which I kind of need –

Erin: Mm-hmm?

Sarah: – if I’m recording?

Erin: For real!

Sarah: Right? So I’ll be like, I, I can’t drink this while I’m podcasting, or I will start a question and be like, wait, where am I? Who, what am I –

Erin: Yep, exactly.

Sarah: – what’s – there was, at one point, just because of exhaustion, I started to record the intro and completely forgot the name of my own show, and I was like, this is not a good thing.

[Laughter]

Sarah: This is not going to work. So –

Melody: Yeah.

Sarah: – you guys started your podcast. How did you decide, let’s talk about books and tell the whole internet? Now, I love this whole idea, let’s talk about books and tell the internet? I have –

Melody: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – many, many enterprises based on that whole idea, but how did you guys decide, all right, we’re going to make this a podcast?

Melody: Well –

Erin: Well –

Melody: – we actually started a podcast first, because we wanted a –

Erin: Yeah.

Melody: – we wanted a podcast.

Erin: Yeah. Yeah, and we, we were those friends who would go three, six months and then, and, like, be still really good friends, but then we would have a marathon, like, seven-to-nine-hour phone call.

Sarah: Oh yeah! There’s a wonderful podcast called Friendshipping!, and they call that cactus friends: you’re just as good friends –

Erin: Yes!

Melody: [Laughs]

Sarah: – but you don’t –

Erin: Right!

Sarah: – require a lot of water and care and feeding.

Erin: Exactly! So we were like, we really, really want to know each other more and be more involved in each other’s lives. We need, like, a project, a project together, that will force us to talk all the time. So we were like, what if we start a podcast?

Melody: And we kicked around a lot of ideas, right, Erin?

Erin: Yeah. Yeah, we had a bunch of different ideas. Well, there are – Melody and I are very, very different people? I think it’s, it’s pretty clear from our show –

Melody: Oh yeah.

Erin: – but, like, our Venn, our Venn diagram intersects at, like, very few things –

Melody: [Laughs]

Erin: – and it’s like romance novels, The Bachelor –

Melody: Uh-huh.

Erin: – True Crime –

Melody: True Crime!

Erin: – True Crime –

Melody: Regular crime.

Erin: Regular crime!

Melody: [Laughs]

Erin: Actual crime. Anything else? I can’t think of anything else.

Melody: I can only think – I mean, sometimes, like, I play around at being a witch, and –

Erin: There’s, yeah.

Melody: – you’re like, you know, you’re Tarot, and you’re all the other things, so, like, we sort of flirt with each other in that realm, but for the most part, we’re very different people who just love each other dearly!

Erin: So there’s a bunch of Bachelor podcasts, there’s a bunch of True Crime podcasts.

Sarah: Oh, there’s just a few of those!

Erin: Yeah, just a tiny bit! [Laughs] And at the time we started, you were kind of the only game in town, and I already listened –

Melody: Yeah.

Erin: – to Smart Bitches, but –

[Laughter]

Erin: I, I mean –

Melody: She was a Smart Bitch if you –

Erin: I was.

Sarah: I approve.

Erin: Like, all your novel recommendation needs, right? The, at the time, there wasn’t anything out there that was just, like, people talking about books –

Sarah: No.

Erin: – like, the plots of books –

Sarah: Right.

Erin: – what do you like? What do you not like? And blogs, like, blogs did that, but nothing in the audio world, so –

Sarah: You’re totally right!

Erin: – I thought, that’s a podcast I’d like to listen to, so we may as well start that, and we thought no one –

Melody: Yeah, and then I was, I was lying in bed at like three in the morning one day –

Sarah: As you do.

Melody: – and I was like – as you do, you know? – and I was like, oh my God, Erin! If we did that romance book thing you were talking about, like, my idea at first was we could each read a book every week and then tell each other the plot –

Erin: [Laughs]

Melody: – and we can call it Heaving Bosoms, and the only thing to stick out of that conversation was Heaving Bosoms.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Melody: Like, the idea that both of us would read a separate book was just banana-town-bonkers.

[Laughter]

Erin: Why did we ever think we could fit that into, like, not, less than four hours I don’t know.

Melody: Yeah! [Laughs] Yeah! Yeah, so then we decided that no, we would, we would both read the same book and then recap it together –

Erin: Right.

Melody: – because my, my whole thing, I don’t know how, honestly, you and other podcasters do it. If I had to not only do the work that comes with the podcast post production but also figure out, like, a brand-new, crazy, in-depth, like, I need to find out interviews; I need to go into this; I need to, like, create my own content!

Erin: Oh my God, I can’t even imagine.

Melody: Like, it just would never have happened? So I was like, leave that to the awesome professionals like Smart Bitches. I cannot be responsible for that kind of content.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Melody: I’m –

Erin: Well, for even, like, book reviews, like, that’s why –

Melody: Yeah, no!

Erin: – we’re never like, this book is five stars; this book –

Melody: No.

Erin: – because it’s like, we’re not professionals –

Melody: No!

Erin: – we’re just ladies talking about what we read this week, and –

Melody: Yeah!

Erin: – we, honestly, we had no idea, like, Romancelandia existed; we had no idea romance Twitter existed. We were like, no one’s going to read a book a week with us, and it turns out –

Melody: Yeah!

Erin: – we’re actually kind of slow readers. [Laughs]

Melody: Yeah, we’re [indistinct] everyone else.

Erin: We’re real slow!

Melody: Yeah, so when we got into it, we thought to ourselves, like, this is our project! You know, this is our best friendship project. If we get three listeners, we are fucking winning.

Sarah: Oh yes!

Melody: Like, we are on Cloud Nine!

Erin: Yeah!

Sarah: I know that feeling.

Melody: Yeah! And, like, we set our goals really small, and we were like, this is just our thing together. This is us talking to each other and staying connected and being BFFs, and then it just sort of exploded! So it’s been, it’s been wonderful, and it’s been amazing, but it really started as just, like, Erin and I being bitches together, reading books.

Sarah: You know, I, that’s kind of how the website started, so I fully understand that.

Melody: Yeah!

Sarah: How long have you guys been friends? Where did you guys meet?

Melody: [Laughs]

Erin: How long have we been friends?

Melody: We’ve been friends since 2011.

[Laughter]

Melody: Don’t worry, I know the date!

Zeb: Bark, bark!

Sarah: Zeb disagrees, by the way.

Melody: It was, like, I think November –

Erin: Oh, I know the date too!

Melody: – 2011?

Erin: It’s like October –

Melody: Yeah! Like, fall 2011? [Laughs]

Sarah: Wow!

Erin: Here’s how we know the date; here’s how we know the date: so Melody and I both competed in collegiate speech and debate –

Melody: Mm-hmm.

Erin: – but kind of at different times, ‘cause Mel took a break in the middle of college and then came back, and that was kind of when I competed, so we never really –

Melody: Yeah.

Erin: – overlapped that way? But then we both came back and coached collegiate speech and debate team, and we just happened to be coaching the same team.

Melody: Mm-hmm.

Erin: So we’re, like, driving vans of students around, like, staying at hotels over the weekend. That’s kind of how we got to be friends –

Melody: Yeah, she –

Erin: – but we were –

Melody: – she met me at a coaches meeting at the beginning of the thing –

Erin: Oh God.

Melody: – and she was like, oh God, this – ugh!

Sarah: [Laughs]

Melody: This [indistinct].

Erin: Oh, she was like, so –

Melody: She’s going to be the worst! [Laughs]

Erin: She was, we were there for, like, a, at a meeting, it was a meeting, and it was going to start, like, on time and everybody –

Melody: Yeah.

Erin: – had their, their notepads and stuff –

Melody: Mm-hmm.

Erin: – and Melody was lying on the floor in the middle of the meeting.

Melody: [Laughs]

Erin: Like, we’re all in a circle in chairs, ready to begin the professional meeting, and Melody is lying on the floor reading a book, and I was like, who’s this –

Melody: Uh-huh.

Erin: – who does she think she is? Like, it is 9:05, and this was supposed to start at nine. Like, I’m not going to work well with whoever this is.

Melody: [Laughs] She was wrong.

Erin: Anyway, we were work friends, so we didn’t hang out outside of work –

Melody: Yeah.

Erin: – and then one day she passed me a note that says, do you want to hang out? Yes or no? And then had me circle one, and then when I circled yes, she took a picture of it –

Melody: Yep! [Laughs]

Erin: – to memorialize the beginning of our friendship.

Sarah: Melody, you are –

Erin: Yep.

Sarah: – fearless!

Melody: So –

Erin: And that is Melody’s personality in a nutshell.

[Laughter]

Melody: I say on the podcast often, I can only be me! Like –

Sarah: Yeah! Like, dude, that’s fearless! I was –

Erin: We started the meeting –

Sarah: – amazed!

Erin: – with her on the floor.

Melody: Yep.

Erin: Yeah, we started that meeting with Melody lying on the floor, and she didn’t even notice until like ten minutes in. She’s like, oh, we started?

Melody: [Laughs]

Erin: God, Mel. Can’t.

Melody: Yeah. Anyways, that’s how we became friends. Yeah, and then after that, we were, like, very fast friends, because we discovered that we have, if not the same opinions about things, we dearly love a lot of the same things, and, like, you know, we were working with the same students, and the students would come away with much different insights from us, but they both wanted –

Erin: Mm-hmm.

Melody: – to coach with us again, because they, they realized that both were valuable, and so, yeah, and then Erin actually, we were only friends very, for a very short period of time in person. I think it was like four months, three or four months.

Erin: Yeah, October through the end of January.

Melody: Yeah.

Erin: So October 2011 through January 2012, and then I joined the Army.

Sarah: As you do.

Erin and Melody: Yeah.

Melody: And then –

Erin: So –

Melody: Yeah, and then I would get these awesome, like, random phone calls, ‘cause she would only get so much, like, phone time or whatever, so I would get, like, these phone calls, and if it was Erin calling I was like, oh my God, I don’t care what’s going on; I have to pick up. I don’t care if I’m asleep, I don’t care if I’m in a meeting, I don’t care what’s going on. I was like, oh my God, I, I’ve got to go, you guys; I have to take this call. And I would get these crazy stories about this strong-ass woman in boot camp getting gassed and, like, climbing ladders and –

Erin: [Laughs]

Melody: – and going through the mud, and, like, being amazing! And so, yeah!

[Laughter]

Melody: Sorry, that’s my idea of boot camp.

Erin: [Indistinct] Yep!

Melody: Right.

Sarah: Mud and showers, got it, ‘kay.

Erin: That’s what the Army is.

Melody: Yep, that’s what Army is.

Sarah: Yep. Clear.

Erin: Mm-hmm!

[Laughter]

Sarah: And then how did you reconnect –

Erin: Yeah, and then we were –

Sarah: – and start a show? Like, you’re in Alaska, right, Erin?

Erin: Yes, yes, I’m in Alaska. Yeah, I mean, we never really disconnected.

Sarah: Wow.

Melody: Right.

Erin: Because we would –

Sarah: Yep.

Erin: – we would do the cactus friend thing. We’d talk for a long time, and then we were kicking around, like, you know, we should, we should do something creative together. We were always kicking around stuff like that. Like –

Melody: Yeah.

Erin: – we need to do this together or that together, and then the idea of a podcast came up, and we actually had other friends that we were thinking, oh, we could do it with this person or that person; then they just, everybody kind of fell off, and then it was just us, and we just decided to go for it.

Melody: And we were like, we can do it on our own! It’s fine! We can do it with our –

Sarah: Dude!

Melody: – people! 

Erin: We’re interesting enough!

Sarah: Yeah!

[Laughter]

Sarah: You guys are, you guys are the type of guests where I could just hit record and leave the room.

Erin: I know; we’re sorry!

Melody: We’re so sorry!

Sarah: No, it’s so great! It is so great! Like, there are times when I’m doing an interview and I’m like, looking, looking at my questions, and I’m getting very, very short answers, and I’m thinking, okay, I’m going to have to come up with some questions that are algebra and some random bullshit, because this is a very short-answered, concise interview. Like, you guys are the greatest! Like, I’m having the best time listening to you reminisce about your friendship! Like, it’s so lovely!

[Laughter]

Erin: Sorry, you’ll notice –

Sarah: And then you have –

Erin: – we can read a two-hundred-and-fifty-page book and talk for four solid hours about it for some reason, so.

Melody: Whoops!

Sarah: Yeah!

[Laughter]

Sarah: Seems, seems like a, seems, seems logical to me.

Erin: Yeah.

Sarah: I mean, that’s kind of how my whole life works.

Erin: Fair, fair, fair.

Sarah: Yeah, I understand completely. And you can keep going back to that book –

Melody: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – for, like, five years.

Erin: Oh yeah.

Sarah: You remember that, what that, that one asshole, that absolute – oh. Ask me to tell you the plot of Lor-, Nicholas: The Lords of Satyr by –

Erin: Ooh! Maybe that’s what we should read for when you come on our podcast! [Laughs]

Sarah: Oh. Oh, it’s, oh. He’s a hemi-peen: once a month he grows two penises and has to have sex with both.

Melody: Oh, yes he does!

Erin: [Indistinct]

Melody: He has two –

[Laughter]

Sarah: Yes. It’s like it’s the world’s worst, most annoying menstrual period, you know? And then there’s some tree-eating, like, there’s trees that eat lesbians who are evil –

Erin: Oh my God.

Sarah: – and there’s a creature that lives behind his balls. Like, it – [laughs] –

Erin: What?!

Sarah: – it is, it’s called the Seeker!

Melody: Oh.

Erin: So many books in the world, so little time. Like –

Melody: Oh my gosh! Incredible! Ah!

Sarah: I was, I remember, this was years and years ago I read this book, and I still, like, obviously, I still talk about it –

Erin: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – and I was, like, reading it and just, just hollering?

Erin: Uh-huh?

Sarah: Just yelling. Yeah, like, oh my God! What is happening? Oh my God!

Erin: We have been there.

Sarah: And my husband came in; he’s like, are you okay? And I’m like, I don’t know if I’m okay! I really don’t.

[Laughter]

Erin: We read, oh, now, Mel, I’m blanking.

Melody: What is it?

[Cross-talk]

Erin: No.

Melody: No.

Erin: No.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Erin: Sarah’s talked to Chuck Tingle, so just, like, let that sit with you.

Melody: Yeah.

Erin: No, no, no. What is the, what’s the first alien book we read?

Sarah: The first alien book –

Melody: Oh, I’m sorry! That was Mastered by Her Mates by Grace Goodwin, the goddess that is –

Sarah: Yes.

Melody: – Grace Goodwin! Yeah!

Erin: Okay –

Melody: Oh!

Erin: – I was reading – we were reading Mastered by Her Mates by Grace Goodwin –

Melody: Oh my God! A society built on double penetration! Ha!

Erin: And incest

Melody: And incest! [Laughs]

Erin: And I got to the point where I found out, so she’s married to cousins, and I got to the point in the book where I found out that one cousin was the vagina alien, and one cousin was going to be the butt alien, like, that it had been decreed by their culture and society, and I started laughing, and my husband was like, what?! And I told him, I’m like, one of these aliens is going to be the butt alien –

[Laughter]

Erin: – vagina alien, I guess, and then he looks at the cover and, like, one is making out with her and the other one is staring at her butt, and he’s like, well, I can figure out which one’s the butt alien.

Melody: He’s like, duh!

Sarah: [Laughs]

Erin: Oh, our poor husbands.

[Laughter]

Sarah: Oh my gosh!

Erin: It’s delicious.

Sarah: That’s amazing. Oh. See, I think one of the things that I like so much about your show and the way that you approach books is that we have a very similar alignment in that there isn’t a good/bad line? It’s actually a quadrant, because there’s good and there’s bad, and then there’s enjoyable and there’s not enjoyable, and that’s –

Melody: Yeah!

Sarah: – the Y axis, so if you get bad and enjoyable, it’s the best!

Melody: Oh!

Erin: Ah! And I mean, that book wasn’t bad! It was bonkers! Like –

Sarah: Right? Bonkers is great!

Erin: – I, I got to the, I, you know, it was well written! It was very good! It was just, like, you just had no idea what was around that corner.

Melody: Yeah, you just had to roll with the punches or else.

Sarah: Yeah. You just kind of have to go with it, and if, if someone asks you about what you’re reading, you just kind of have to be like, no. No.

Erin: [Laughs] Not that –

Sarah: Like, every now and again at synagogue, someone will ask me what I’m reading. I’m like, oh, I’m, I’m reading a book. How ‘bout you? Hmm? Yeah, what are you reading? I’m reading something with words, all twenty-six letters of the alphabet probably in there somewhere. Not discussing it.

Melody: Oh my God. I have no compunction when it comes to that, and so I’m just like, man, I’m reading this book! It’s about this lady who gets just, she just gets, she gets mated with these dudes because of this machine that goes into her brain and, and finds out what her kinks are, and then she’s like, you are made for these dudes, and then she gets to it, and they’re seven feet tall, and their dongs –

Erin: Like, huge cousin aliens.

Melody: – are a foot and a half long! They’re also cousins! It is the best! There is what is called an anal training box!

[Somebody is making a noise like a dolphin at this point.]

Melody: Like, I will just go into it, and everybody’s like, oh God! Okay!

Erin: [Laughs]

Sarah: Four simultaneous coronary attacks were reported in one synagogue –

Erin: Ah!

Melody: [Indistinct] so happy.

Sarah: Oh my gosh. So what do you like most about, about hosting your podcast? Like, what is your favorite thing about doing it? Because I can tell how much you love your show and how much you love each other, and it’s just so friendly and warm. What is the thing that you love most about it?

Erin: Oof.

Melody: There’s two things for me. One –

Erin: ‘Kay.

Melody: – is I get so much more access to Erin, and she has to talk to me.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Melody: It is amazing!

Erin: [Indistinct] pretty elusive.

Melody: She is contractually motherfucking obligated to talk to me.

Sarah: So it’s like a captivity narrative, or captivity story.

Melody: [Laughs] Yeah!

Sarah: Okay, yeah, sure, I get it!

Melody: Yep! I am hereby her one true mate! So –

[Laughter]

Melody: – that’s part of it. The other part of it, honestly, is all the feedback that we’ve gotten back from listeners, being like, I used to be really, I used to be really ashamed –

Sarah: Yep.

Melody: – of what I like to read –

Sarah: Yep.

Melody: – and I used to hide it. I was so glad when Kindle came around –

Sarah: Yep!

Melody: – because I didn’t have to wrap my books in paper anymore. I was so excited, because I, I didn’t have to, like, you know, buy books from a person anymore and watch them judge me at Barnes and Noble or wherever they bought their books. So the biggest, the biggest thing other than unfettered access to Erin was having people be like, I, I have so much more of a love and an open love of romance because I found this community where not only they listen to us, but they interact with, like, the rest of the people that also listen to the podcast a lot of times via our Facebook group or just, like, via the online in different ways, and they’re like, I’m so much more proud of the fact that I love romance, and it’s not an escape anymore. It’s just something that I fucking love because it’s awesome, and it’s empowering and sex positive, and it centers the woman and thereby me or, you know, whoever they are. It centers, it centers the human experience at the center of the narrative, and that’s what matters. And that’s been my favorite thing. It’s just, like, connecting with all these people. Because once again, Erin and I were big dum-dums, and we didn’t know that Romancelandia existed! [Laughs]

Erin: We still are big dum-dums –

[cross-talk]

Erin: I mean, besides the talking to Melody a lot more, sometimes multiple times a day now, I guess, I mean, Mel kind of touched on it, but again, I just, I just didn’t know this community was out there. I, I didn’t discover romance novels until college –

Melody: Hmm.

Erin: – and I said this, like, many times on the podcast, so, sorry if you’re one of our listeners and you’ve heard this a million times, but, like, I found one author, ‘cause I picked up her book because it had, it was like a funny cover that amused me, and, like, I picked it up kind of as a joke, and then I was like, there’s sex in this book! Like, I, I had no idea that there were, like, sex books. Like, I, it blew my mind, and I thought it was just that author –

Melody: Mm-hmm.

Erin: – so I was going around being like, have you guys heard of this author? She writes sex books –

[Laughter]

Erin: – which was, like, so dumb! And then I found out that, like, romance novels all ha-, like, mostly have, you know, sex scenes and are, you know, dirty smut, and then I was obsessed, but I didn’t know anyone else who read them, and I had no idea that this whole community was out there, so selfishly, I’m just, I’m so happy we started this so that I could learn that all of that was out there and there are so many women that love these books and, you know, get a ticket to the show. Like, now I feel like we’re part of this big community –

Melody: Yeah.

Erin: – and I would have never even found out.

Melody: Yeah, and I love the fact that it’s an industry that celebrates women’s work? You know, ‘cause there, there are some –

Erin: So much more articulate than me.

Melody: No, that’s not true! [Laughs]

Erin: Sex books! And other people read sex books.

[Laughter]

Erin: [Indistinct] idiot.

Melody: Says the lawyer of our duo!

Erin: [Indistinct]

Melody: Please!

Erin: I know, right? Jesus!

Melody: [Laughs] You are so much more –

Erin: Anyway, go on with your women’s work and, you know –

Melody: [Laughs more] No, but really, though, like, it’s a, it’s an industry, and it is a passion that is so centered on the, the feminine experience, and I don’t mean that in, like, a binary way? I, because, you know, it, I think there was a, there was a moment in history where romance was very, very binary-centric, and I think that’s true about a lot of books still, right?

Sarah: It is, yeah.

Melody: But, yeah, but I do think that the, the industry as a whole has, has done a little bit of work at least to include, you know, non-berry, non-binary versions of, of gender –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Melody: – you know? But it’s just the idea that, like, the personal is celebrated. The, the interior emotional life is celebrated, instead of, like, you know, ‘cause spy novels or whatever else, like the shoot-‘em-up, bang-bang, mystery detective books have always existed, but those aren’t something to be shameful about reading for any gender because a man is centered in it. And so I, I just love the fact that we’ve tapped into this industry and this, this, I don’t know, moment of existence in –

Sarah: Yep.

Melody: – in life where the feminine and not-binary – you know what I mean – experience is elevated in a way that I think is really important. So.

Sarah: I agree!

Erin: I agree.

Sarah: Simultaneous agreement across six time zones.

Erin: I co-sign to all the smart feminist [indistinct] Melody said.

Melody: [Laughs] Yep.

Sarah: So how has your friendship changed since you started the show? You’ve touched a little bit about how much you love being in regular contact with each other and how, well, how Erin, you’re now Melody’s time-zone prisoner. You’re like a time zone alien, time-twisting aliens –

Erin: I’m her prisoner!

[Laughter]

Sarah: – Yup.

Erin: Yeah, that sounds like a great novel idea.

Melody: [Indistinct]

Sarah: How has your, how has your friendship changed since you started the show?

Erin: We talk a lot more, a lot more.

Melody: Yeah.

Erin: But I also feel like sometimes we lose the quality of our former conversations –

Melody: Yeah, we talk less.

Erin: – because we’re all podcast all the time –

Melody: Mm-hmm.

Erin: – so it’s, it’s almost like we talk way more, but also sometimes less about the stuff that matters and we don’t necessarily want to share with everyone, which, I mean, especially for Melody, is a very small percentage of her life. [Laughs]

Melody: Right, right.

Erin: She mostly wants to tell everything to everyone.

Melody: I don’t give a shit!

Sarah: [Laughs]

Melody: Yeah.

Erin: But it’s interesting, because, like, I, I felt like before, we were trying to carve out a time to talk and be friends –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Erin: – and now, even though we’re talking two, three, four, five times a day and two hours a week, I still feel like sometimes we have to carve out that time to be friends. So I don’t know that it’s changed much.

Melody: Well –

Erin: I feel like I’m more in tune with your rhythms, maybe?

Sarah: Ohhh.

Melody: Yep, yep, uh-huh. You’re definitely –

Erin: I can tell by a text silence what – 

Melody: Like, if I’m –

Erin: – what’s going on?

Melody: – if I’m okay or not? Yeah?

Erin: I can tell by how quickly you respond to my texts if you’re in, like, a, a depressive time –

Melody: Mm-hmm.

Erin: – or a not-depressive time –

Melody: Yeah.

Erin: – now, when I used to not be able to read that.

Melody: Absolutely. Well, and I think that I know you better because now –

Erin: Yeah, I think that’s true.

Melody: – I can say, like, oh, I think I know how Erin’s going to react to whatever happens, you know, and I’ll check in with her –

Erin: Yeah.

Melody: – to confirm that, whereas before I would literally be asking. Like, what do you think?

Erin: Mm-hmm. I think you were much more of an enigma to me before we started the podcast, and –

Melody: Oooh! [Laughs]

Erin: Well, we’re so different!

Melody: We’re so fucking different!

Erin: Like, we have a lot of respect for each other, and we like a lot of the same things and agree about a lot of, like, big-world stuff –

Melody: Yeah.

Erin: – but our operating procedures, like, day-to-day and, like, emotionally are, I think, extremely different. Our coping mechanisms, like, all of that is extremely different, so Melody used to be like, I don’t really know what happens in her brain –

Melody: Mm-hmm.

Erin: – and now I feel like I do.

Melody: Yeah, absolutely. But we do definitely still –

Erin: – astounds me.

Melody: According to Erin, it is banana-town-bonkers! [Laughs] I would also agree with that a lot of times. But yeah, we do, we talk a lot more frequently, but we do still need to carve out times and, like, set boundaries about, like, what is content and what is friendship?

Sarah: That’s a very important –

Melody: You know?

Sarah: – distinction.

Melody: Yeah, ‘cause there are times where, literally, I do not care, so I will say something and I will be like, I’m totally fine with also sharing that at least for the patrons or whatever, and Erin is very much like –

Erin: Mm-hmm.

Melody: – mmm, that’s a friendship thing, whereas –

Erin: [Laughs]

Melody: – something else, we could definitely share as content –

Sarah: Right. Right, right, right.

Melody: – you know?

Sarah: And you also have the ability to, like, I will just tap my ring against the microphone as a reminder to my future self, oh, you’ve got to take that out; that’s not going to work. ‘Cause sometimes you’ll be going into a conversation with someone – and I imagine this is especially true because you’re such good friends – romances are about intimacy and lots of different kinds of intimacy –

Erin: Yeah. Right.

Sarah: – and so that can create a very intimate conversation where later someone will email me and say, I, I was talking about this thing, and I kind of forgot that the whole internet was going to hear? Can you take that out? And most of the time I’ve already taken it out, or I’ve, I’ve, like, verified, do you want to tell the whole internet about that? Because –

Melody: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – the, the –

Erin: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – the level of intimate confidence and connection that goes on just between the reader and the book, when you speak to another reader –

Melody: Yeah.

Sarah: – who has that same connection with the reading material, it creates a really intimate conversation, and I, I keep trying to find a different word, but really, “intimate” is very, very, it is, it’s visceral, right?

Melody: You know, it’s, it’s so true. It’s so true, and a lot of times we call that TMI with Melody?

Sarah: [Laughs]

Melody: ‘Cause I am –

Erin: That’s a segment we have on our show, called “TMI with Melody.”

Melody: [Laughs] I think the most recent one was me –

Erin: Hi!

Melody: – being like, I’ve always asked for more tit-slapping in books! Thank goodness –

Erin: Oh my God, yes!

Melody: – that this one showed me some tit-slapping! [Laughs]

Erin: Yeah. And you asked for it, and you got it –

Melody: Got it!

Erin: – and guess what? You wished that you could take that back, didn’t you?

Melody: Well, in this case, yeah.

[Laughter]

Melody: It wasn’t how I imagined it!

Erin: But it’s not even just – you know, when you’re talking to your best friend about a sex book, like, a lot of times you’re like, oh, this, this doesn’t happen in the real world! And then the other one’ll be like, actually, that happened to my friend Natalie –

Melody: Yeah!

Erin: – or whatever, and then you have to be like, Natalie probably [indistinct].

Melody: [Laughs]

Erin: It’s not even just you! It’s like, you’re just talking to your friend, and you don’t, you don’t think about the stuff that you’re saying about you or your friend –

Sarah: Right.

Erin: – or your ex-boyfriend or, you know, whoever. [Indistinct] appreciate –

Melody: Yeah, and the one thing that’s nice about our current, you know, structure is just that, you know, we do all of the editing and everything in-house, so it’s a really easy thing to, like, we’ll have a conversation and be like, oh yeah, hate –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Melody: – take that out, and then we’ll restart and talk about it again in a different way, or we’ll, we’ll redact names –

Sarah: Yep.

Melody: – or whatever it is. So it helps that we also do the production in-house –

Sarah: Yes.

Melody: – in that sense.

Sarah: It’s a responsibility, isn’t it?

Melody: Yeah, absolutely.

Erin: Mm-hmm, yes.

Melody: Yeah.

Sarah: What have been some of your favorite episodes or books? We were talking about this before we started recording, and I absolutely loved the trailer for Josh and Hazel’s Guide to Not Dating and then the two episodes that followed, because you were just so fucking delighted to not have to warn anybody about anything. Like, we don’t have any content warnings, and this is a fucking delight!

Melody: Yep, we were jubilant! Well, we had just come off the Viking book of terror where there were, like, eight rapes and –

Erin: Oh my God.

Melody: – [laughs] – when we were supposed to be rooting for them the whole time, and it was a horror show!

Erin: It was like an Old School, Old School romance.

Melody: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Erin: We try to do an Old School every once in a while just to, like, kind of keep ourselves in check, but there are always people who, like, grew up –

Melody: Yeah.

Erin: – like, that was their first one, and they have, like, this nostalgic love of this, like, thing that if you read it now it’s just, like, horrifying? But no one’s read it recently, so.

Sarah: A lot of Johanna Lindsey is like that.

[cross-talk]

Erin: Yeah, and so we read that Johanna Lindsey, and then we read a Young Adult book –

Melody: Oh yeah!

Erin: – that was also very, like –

Melody: Very problematic, I guess is the best way to put it.

Erin: Yeah. It was, like, very consent-gray.

Melody: Right, it was – no, Erin, it was not a Young Adult book. They’re going to come for our jugulars. It was a New Adult book set in high school.

Erin: Oh God, yeah, ‘cause the moment she turned eighteen and had sex –

Melody: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Erin: – I think they both turned eighteen on the page – it was rough. And then –

Melody: It was also New Adult ‘cause, like, the themes were much more grownup/problematic than people would ever agree upon for YA, so yeah.

Erin: Sure. And then the next one read was –

Melody: Josh and Hazel’s!

Erin: – Haven.

Melody: Oh!

Erin: No, we read Haven –

Melody: Oh yeah!

Erin: – by Rebekah Weatherspoon, which we super-duper loved!

Melody: Oh God, I loved that so much!

Erin: We loved that book! But it is –

Melody: But it was still heavy.

Erin: – very angsty –

Melody: Yeah.

Erin: – and very dark, especially at the – nope, the whole time it was dark. It was wonderful.

Melody: [Indistinct] was lovely. It was lovely from start to finish. It was just, like –

Erin: We loved it.

Melody: – set in serial killer times, and it didn’t really leave serial killer times.

[Laughter]

Melody: So –

Erin: And that’s a book that was not, it’s not a book that I would have picked up without the podcast, ‘cause it’s kind of not my thing?

Melody: Right.

Erin: And we still super-duper love it.

Melody: Yeah.

Erin: So we had come off of like five weeks of just, like, dark angst –

Melody: Mm-hmm.

Erin: – and we had to put all these, like, content warning: serial killers, content warning: rapes, content warning: like all of these different things –

Melody: And then Josh and Hazel!

Erin: – and then finally it was just Josh and Hazel! They just are friends, and they just wanted to smooch each other and go [indistinct] – 

Sarah: Smooching and then they go –

[cross-talk]

Melody: – everyone! Oh, octopus, octopus! [Laughs]

Erin: Yeah, so that was –

Melody: So yeah.

Erin: – that was one of my favorites, honestly. What else? Let’s see.

Melody: There was some –

Erin: Some of my favorites are the books we really didn’t –

Melody: Yeah, those are –

Erin: Always really good –

Sarah: I will tell you, the most popular category on the site is F+!

Erin: Mmm!

Sarah: Gets the most traffic!

Melody: [Laughs] Yeah, really?

Sarah: Absolutely. If you look, if you sort reviews by grade and look at the traffic, it’s always F and F+ reviews. When people are having shitty days they’re like, I want to hear somebody rant about a bad book. It makes ‘em feel better.

Erin: Yeah!

Sarah: Oh yeah!

Erin: I need to get into those! I always jump straight to squee. I’m like, what do we like right now?

Sarah: [Laughs]

Erin: Okay. I’ll –

Melody: I’ll start perusing the F+ a little more often.

Erin: Yeah. I really like –

Melody: Mastered by Her Mates is a really good one.

Erin: Oh God, yeah, that’s one of my favorites, ‘cause it’s so bonkers we just, like, cracked each other up the whole time.

Melody: Any alien time just, like, fucked-up penis book is my favorite. What’s – Ruby Dixon, we also did those blue aliens with the penis spurs. Gosh damn it!

Erin: Ice Planet Barbarians.

Melody: Yeah, Ice Planet – well, we decided to change the title. With all respect to Ruby Dixon –

Erin: Oh yeah. Ice Planet Sex Barbarians –

Melody: Colon, like –

Erin: I just felt like the cadence –

Melody: – Fucking You Real Good!

Erin: Sex Planet Ice –

Melody: Oh yeah! [Laughs]

Erin: Sex Planet Ice Barbarians: Fucking You Real Good!

Melody: Anyway, so those are some of my favorites. Honestly, I discovered –

Erin: Yeah.

Melody: – a new, like, kink, question mark? Via this podcast? ‘Cause I didn’t know that I liked alien books so much! I didn’t know I –

Erin: Melody loves alien double penetration. It threw me for –

Melody: I fucking love it. I also – let’s see, the cult was formed after Beard Science, our, our episodes on Beard Science by Penny Reid.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Erin: I love our Love Hacked episode by Penny Reid. A lot of our good inside jokes –

Melody: That’s true.

Erin: – came out of Love Hacked. It’s a book that Melody just, like, super loved, but I couldn’t –

Melody: Yeah.

Erin: – get over that the hero was an international cyberterrorist that threatened the, the security of the United States of America –

Melody: She can’t get over it. [Laughs]

Erin: – for no kind of reason. So that was a good one.

Sarah: Well, I mean, when you, when you, when you commit your entire life and body to serving the country, you know? ‘cause you kind of joined the army, that makes sense that you’d find that a little bit problematic!

Erin: Ugh!

Melody: Yeah.

Erin: Yeah, that book was real close to home for me. I was just like, stop it! Why? Just ‘cause you can? Stop it! [Indistinct]

Melody: Yeah!

Erin: Everyone loves Split, which was a book we super hated by JB Salsbury, who –

Melody: Oh yeah, Split was a rough time.

Erin: – writes well, but it was not for us, but it was very, uhhh, dark? [Laughs]

Melody: I also really liked, we did Tiffany Reisz’s Men at Work series, and –

Erin: Yeah, and we also did The Red –

Melody: Yeah, we also did The Red!

Erin: – which is also a favorite of –

Melody: Oh my God.

Erin: Yeah. Listen, I have a very minotaur sex –

Melody: Oh yeah, minotaur sex, I can’t even. I think during Her Halloween Treat was when my Lady Love – well, we’ve had multiple listeners be like, I knew that you guys for, were for me when they heard my Lady Love on Her Halloween Treat and I said that I wanted there to be retailed crotchless leggings. [Laughs] Because –

Erin: To sleep in.

Melody: Yeah. ‘Cause I want –

Erin: So that she could be warm but also air out her undercarriage.

Melody: – I want –

Erin: We should say, we end every episode with something called a Lady Love, which is like a thing that’s cheering us up and helping us with self-care this week –

Sarah: Uhhh –

Erin: – that we can recommend to others, and hers was an imaginary product, crotchless leggings to sleep in.

Sarah: How is that not a real thing?

Erin: [Indistinct]

Melody: How is that not a real thing? You get warm times all over your body, but your vagina still gets to air out! [Laughs]

Sarah: How is this not a thing?

Melody: Yes! This is –

Erin: I believe you said mucous membranes on the episode –

Melody: Yeah!

Erin: – which grossed me out to my core.

Sarah: [Laughs] Yep!

Erin: Gross. And not like the romance novel core; like, like, heart core. Blech!

Melody: [Laughs] Yeah, I have a Swiss cheese memory, so it’s really hard for me to pinpoint. Also, I cannot play the favorites game, so I have a really hard time with, like –

Erin: That’s why we have twenty favorite episodes.

Melody: – what episode is your favorite, and that’s why this que-, this answer was twenty minutes long.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Erin: Yep!

Melody: We don’t have one! [Laughs]

Erin: Sorry.

Sarah: Isn’t that rather amazing, that romance can do all of these different things?

Melody: Oh yeah!

Erin: Yeah! It’s nuts!

Sarah: It’s stunning, isn’t it?

Melody: That’s – I was just –

Erin: When we don’t like a book, we aren’t, we try very – I mean, sometimes we hate it because it’s, like, problematic and, like, there’s reasons, but if it’s just, like, it’s not our thing, that’s most of them! It’s like, this might be somebody else’s, like, number one –

Melody: Yeah.

Erin: – favorite thing to read about –

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Erin: – it’s not ours, and it’s so crazy how much romance diversity there is, just in terms of, like, what people like to read about! It’s insane!

Melody: Well, and, and –

Sarah: There’s so much.

Melody: Yeah, and we had some, some questions from listeners up front being like, are you ever worried about this and that? And you know, when we, when we talk badly about a book or whatever, and at, at first we were really, we were really nervous about it, because we were like, you know, we have, we have, we, we – I personally think that all authors are wizards. I don’t know how they do it.

Erin: Yeah!

Sarah: Mm-hmm?

Melody: Like, I, I think that the, the craft and the art itself is so impressive, no matter what level you’re writing at. Like, just to write a novel, even if it’s not even readable, is such a commitment and such a labor of love?

Erin: And to put it out there is so brave –

Melody: Yes!

Erin: – just to have the likes of us be like, we didn’t like it! So –

Melody: Right, right, right. So, like, that’s why we (a) don’t call ourselves reviewers, because I don’t, I don’t feel comfortable or –

Erin: – we learned?

Melody: Yeah, like, qualified enough to call myself a reviewer –

Erin: [Indistinct] Yeah.

Melody: – but (b) we also, up front at each episode that we don’t like, we’re really careful about being like, hey, this is my hang-up. Or, like, this is the reason, or this is the week I’ve had, or, like, I don’t like, you know, alpha-assholes, just as a rule, so this is not going to be my jam. But it’s likely –

Erin: Mm-hmm.

Melody: – going to be your jam; if all the things we say don’t squeak you out, you should definitely pick up this book, you know?

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Melody: So –

Erin: Yeah, we – that said, I was super, super worried that, like, at KissCon, Susan Elizabeth Phillips would make eye contact with me.

Sarah: Oh my God.

Erin: So – [laughs] – I mean, it is also kind of scary –

Melody: Yeah! Yeah.

Erin: – somebody’s book, but then she didn’t come to KissCon, so then it was –

Melody: Well, 2020. Let’s, let’s just put our big girl panties on for 2020.

Erin: Yep, mm-hmm.

[Laughter]

Erin: Well, I honestly, I get a little more squeamish when we don’t like somebody who’s self-published or young in their career. I, I honestly don’t, like, worry myself about not liking a Susan Elizabeth Phillips book. I mean –

Melody: She’s doing fine.

Erin: – she’s fine, yeah.

Sarah: Yeah, you don’t need to worry about that.

Erin: She’s going to –

Sarah: You’re okay.

Melody: Yeah, you’re okay. There, there are enough people who love it. [Laughs] It’s okay.

Erin: Exactly.

Melody: And we heard from them –

Erin: Boy, did we.

Melody: – so we know they’re out there. [Laughs]

Sarah: Oh yeah. That was actually one of my questions: what are some of the feedback pieces you get from listeners?

Erin: I mean, we’ve gotten a, we’ve gotten a lot of emails from people that, you know, say the, first, the thing that Mel said about having originally been ashamed of what they read or the, you know, the types of things they liked in romance even, and then listening to us be just so excited about it?

Sarah: Isn’t that the best feeling?

Melody: God, I love that.

Erin: Yeah!

Sarah: It’s like, oh, there is, we are never going to run out of room at this table. Come on over and sit down.

Erin: Mm-hmm.

Melody: Yeah!

Erin: Yeah!

Melody: Yeah, absolutely.

Erin: Or, you know, people who are going through some kind of a hard time –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Erin: – and they put on our podcast ‘cause it’s basically just women cackling at each other. I, I think it’s probably hard –

Melody: Mm-hmm.

Erin: – not to be in a good mood when you’re just listening to other women laughing and, and being friends, so we’ve gotten a lot of that.

Melody: We had a ton of feedback? We had one listener who, like, really, really just hit my heart. We actually have had two. I mean, there have been so many more, but, like, the two I can think of right now, one of them was a woman who was in an interracial relationship, and she was having a hard time because, you know, she was sort of bucking her, her family’s expectations, and it was, it was really tough, and so just, she said that just listening to the podcast and hearing about, you know, my, my sort of hiccups or, or hilarious anecdotes or, you know, like, heartfelt love for my family, because I’m in an interracial relationship, and I’m, I’m raising two beautiful little hapa babies, and she, I don’t know, she, she told, she told this to Erin, but –

[Laughter]

Erin: We run into a lot more people that are like, Melody changed my life.

Sarah: Aww!

Melody: [Laughs]

[Cross-talk]

Erin: – with X, Y, and Z, or, like, when we saw her beautiful relationship or whatever. Is Melody around? Like, there was a lot of that when I went to KissCon. It was like, Erin, you’re so funny on the podcast, but Melody really helped me through my profound depression.

[Laughter]

Erin: – for, like, you know, my depression or whatever, and I’ll be like, oh, she’s not here!

Melody: No, that’s, that’s not true, but –

[Laughter, cross-talk]

Melody: We definitely – yeah, that, that one listener really, I don’t know, it made me feel like just existing was helpful, you know? Like, even though –

Sarah: Yeah!

Melody: – I’m, I’m not trying to, like, be the poster child for interracial relationships or whatever. Like, we are sort of a village that is, that is unique in our own way, and so it was cool to hear that my random anecdotes, you know, helped her in, in some way or another.

And then we also had a listener who emailed us from what she essentially described as, like, a remote village in Africa? And she was like, I, I discovered your podcast, and it’s been really cool to hear people talking about things that I’m interested in, because in, in this place in particular, like, there’s literally nobody, and so –

Erin: It was after we’d read A Princess in Theory.

Melody: Yeah.

Sarah: That’s cool!

Erin: And she was, she also emailed us to correct us on a few things that we were like –

Melody: Yeah!

Erin: – is this how this work, or is that how this works?

Melody: Yeah!

Erin: And she’s like, this is how it works. This is very similar to, you know, the tribe or the village that I’m in.

Melody: Mm-hmm.

Erin: It was very interesting.

Melody: It was so cool. It was so, so cool.

Sarah: It’s really kind of incredible how far podcasts reach, isn’t it?

Erin and Melody: Yeah!

Erin: Yeah. It really is. And I also want to note, my favorite kind of feedback is this, and maybe this is selfish, I don’t know.

Melody: Oh, I can’t wait, I can’t wait.

Erin: Oh God, I could just like, I just wish it was just you on this. Why did I come here? And it’s like, we’re, we’re, we’re like our little, we’re like a little ragtag, unprofessional operation of, like, we’ve both got jobs, and we’re kind of cobbling this together –

Melody: Right.

Erin: – on the weekends? And so there’s a lot of times where it’s like, oh shit, we deleted the file! Or neither of us read the book this week!

Melody: Yeah.

Erin: Well, really, it’s just me who forgets to read the book. Or, you know, just, like, something like that where it’s like, fuck, we’re sorry! We don’t have an episode right now! And every time we get, like, lots of people that’ll email us –

Melody: Oh my gosh.

Erin: – or comment on that post of, like, sorry, guys, who are just like, take your time! We’re here for you! Like, don’t worry!

Sarah: Aw!

Erin: No one has ever been pissed off that we’ve been, like, delayed on an episode or, like, you know, taken a long time. We had this thing where if people gave us a five-star iTunes review we would do the book that they recommended to us? We’re like a year behind on some of those books. [Indistinct]

Sarah: [Laughs]

Melody: Well, yeah, no, and it’s not because slacked off or fucked, you know, fucked around on it.

Erin: Yeah!

Melody: It’s because we’ve gotten so many, you know, the list is so long that, like, we, we only do an episode a week. We cannot get to everybody’s –

Erin: Yeah.

Melody: – in a timely fashion, and everybody has been so supportive.

Erin: It keeps me up at night that we’re not fulfilling promises to people. Like –

Melody: Yeah! 

Erin: – oh, the episode is late, or I haven’t gotten the Patreon out or, like, whatever, and, like, all of them are always emailing us being like, hey, it’s cool! We don’t care! We’re all in this together!

Melody: God!

Sarah: Yep.

Melody: No, we ser- –

Erin: That’s –

Melody: Like, the listeners are so incredible, and, and I’ve seen, like, for the most part, that that is Romancelandia, you know? Because I feel like so many authors either started out or are currently writing while also having day jobs or, you know, that the listeners in and of themselves have seven hobbies, including reading romance novels, and also are kickass in their real life professions, and they also raise kids, and, like, again, it just comes back to this very, very supportive, wonderful women’s kind of ecosystem that I don’t think you find in a lot of other places! And it’s just, it makes me want to be a better person every time somebody is like, don’t worry about it. I’m just like, oh my gosh. Like, I just want to do this for you, because I know that you’re going to be there for me even if I don’t, but it, it makes me, I don’t know, it makes me want to, to fulfill all the promises that much faster, you know?

Sarah: Totally!

Erin: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: Plus, you’ve already, you’ve already said, you know, this, I show up as I am, and because you do and you show up exactly as you are, your, your community accepts you as you are and wants you to be exactly who you are.

Erin: Yeah.

Sarah: And so that’s, that’s exactly what they want. They don’t want this perfected, idealized, and always together person. They want you to be who you are!

Melody: Yeah, thank goodness, you know?

Erin: True!

Melody: ‘Cause we would not be –

Sarah: Yeah, no, me neither. Not a chance. Nope! Not happening.

[Laughter]

Sarah: What is your process for selecting books, and do you ever guy, do you ever get in, like, a big ol’ fight like, I’m not reading that? Like, no. Hard no. Not reading that. Negative, negative, negative.

Melody: Ohhh! [Laughs]

Erin: I was so worried your question was just, what is your process? Just like so nervous, ‘cause we do not have a process!

Sarah: Not having a process –

Erin: We had a process; did not –

Sarah: Yeah, not having a process counts as having a process. I’m sorry.

Erin: [Laughs] Okay.

Melody: Listen, we have a process! It’s just the process that lives in my ADHD brain, okay?

Sarah: Look –

Melody: It might not look to the layman like a process, but it exists!

Sarah: Hey, I have many, many miles on Seat of Your Pants Airline. I understand!

Melody: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um.

Erin: Um. Well, I’ll do the – so –

Melody: Yeah!

Erin: – we started off, like our original intent was we’re going to, instead of us selecting books, because we kind of didn’t want that to be a responsibility that we had to be accountable for –

Melody: Mm-hmm.

Erin: – we decided we would just take recommendations, and we started this bribe where you, if you gave us a five-star iTunes review, we would, we would promise that we would do the book that you recommended. Or if you didn’t like our pod- – I don’t know why you would want us to do a book you recommended –

Melody: Right.

Erin: – if you didn’t like our podcast and didn’t want to give us a five-star, but whatever – if you didn’t want to give us an iTunes review, you could just email us, and we would put it on the list or not, depending on if we wanted to do it.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Erin: Then the response to that was huge, and we were like, oh shit, we’ve just committed to doing seven years of this podcast –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Erin: – because of how many books now we have promised, you know, and we’ve taken the bribes, you know.

Melody: Meanwhile, once again, I get unfettered access to Erin, so I’m just fist-pumping by myself.

Erin: [Laughs] She’s like, she can’t quit!

Melody: Oh yeah! Oh yeah!

[Laughter]

Erin: Then we noticed that the overwhelming majority of the recommendations we were getting right away were historical, Regency, ballroom, white, heterosexual romance.

Melody: Yeah, and even if it wasn’t historical, it was just, like, cisgender, heterosexual, super white, whether it was contemporary or sports or whatever else, you know?

Erin: Right. I would say it was eighty percent historical, and then, like –

Melody: Yeah.

Erin: – another nineteen percent were contemporary, white, cis, heterosexual –

Melody: Mm-hmm.

Erin: – romances, and then there was like maybe one percent other.

Melody: Yeah.

Erin: And so we were, what we were losing out on were diverse authors, diverse characters, paranormals. You know, like all these other genres of things too. You know, self-published – almost all of them were traditionally published books, you know, so there was this, like, huge part of the spectrum that we were missing in romance, so what we do is, every, I’d say, what, two, three months, we put out a reading list, because we never know whether our episodes are going to be one-parters –

Melody: Yeah.

Erin: – or two-parters, so we can’t really pin down the date everything is going to come out, but we can at least say, these are the next five books we’re going to do. And usually we keep to that – sometimes we add some flavor in there somewhere – but I try to make sure that those five books, we’ve got a contemporary; we’ve got a historical; we’ve got racial diversity; we’ve got, you know, kink diversity, if you will; we’ve got –

Melody: Or sexuality diversity. Yeah.

Erin: – members of all different sexualities. Yeah, we try, we try to get, you know, like paranormal, contemporary, like all the different genres that we can in there and make sure out of those five, they aren’t, like, five of the same thing, or even –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Erin: – two of the same thing. And we try to get an Old School one in there just for kicks. So that’s what I’m trying to do. Sometimes we’re not succeeding, ‘cause sometimes a book is advertised one way, and then you crack it open and you’re like, oh this –

Melody: Yeah.

Erin: – isn’t really what I thought it was going to be. [Laughs]

Melody: Yeah.

Erin: But that’s at least kind of what we’re trying to do.

Melody: Yeah, but especially since, you know, it’s, it’s so important to get especially own voices out there, we’re definitely doing our best to –

Erin: Mm-hmm.

Melody: – have our own picks in there once in a while to make sure that we get some people of color, some, some LGBTQ, you know, like all of that, and we try to pick as many own voices as we possibly can. So.

Erin: Right. So some of the things we’re reading aren’t necessarily recommendations. We try to make as many of our books as we can recommendations –

Melody: Yeah.

Erin: – from readers, but also we want to make sure we’re, we’re covering the whole spectrum of romance as much as we can.

Melody: Yeah.

Sarah: Absolutely!

Melody: Oh, and, and as a result, we don’t fight. There’s, and, and I think that we’re both like –

Erin: Yeah, we have no, we’re [indistinct] control, so –

Melody: Yeah, and, and we’re both, like, open-minded enough, slash – it’s not Schadenfreude, but, like, you know, we’re both like, I mean, even if we don’t like this, we’re, we’re –

Erin: [Laughs] No!

Melody: – going to, it’s going to be funny!

Sarah: Yep.

Melody: [Laughs] So it doesn’t really matter!

Erin: Yeah. It’s almost better when it’s like, when I open a book and I think, oh, I’m not reading this!

Melody: Yeah.

Erin: It usually means –

Melody: Yeah.

Erin: – it’s going to be a good episode.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Melody: Even if you have to get creative to make sure it’s a good episode.

Sarah: So speaking of episodes –

Erin: Yeah.

Sarah: – what advice would you give anyone considering starting a podcast, or what would you tell your past selves if, if you could go back in time?

Melody: Ooh! It doesn’t have to be perfect!

Sarah: Yes, thank you! Oh my God! You heard my dog earlier, right? Yeah. It does not have to be perfect.

Melody: Yeah, I still, I still, every once in a while, it’s usually when I’m in, like, an anxiety/depressive spiral, like, Erin can tell, I’m just like, you know –

Erin: I was going to say, I’m just so happy –

[cross-talk]

Erin: No, it’s true! Like –

Melody: I get more –

Erin: She just wants everything to be perfect, and it’s like, Melody, it’s okay!

Melody: ‘Cause I have to, I, I get in a place where I have to, like, control WHAT I CAN CONTROL! And, like, a lot of times –

Sarah: Yep!

Melody: – that is audio, or that is editing, or that is something, like, I put my hands on and make it work. So yeah, it absolutely does not have to be perfect, and your voice matters! You know, like –

Sarah: Yes!

Melody: – it – we were lucky, because I think that we came, we definitely came into the romance podcast land before the explosion? Like, I don’t know what was in the zeitgeist at the time –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Melody: – but all of a sudden there’s been, like, this huge explosion of romance podcasts, which is awesome, but I definitely think, especially now, you do need to find, like, your place in the niche?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Melody: So your specific voice matters, and it does not have to be perfect.

Erin: And I want to say to – this is something we say a lot, that if you’re thinking of starting a podcast, whatever area or whatever you’re thinking about doing, our, our motto, like, our secret motto is kind of the secret ingredient is love.

Melody: Yeah.

Sarah: So true!

Erin: Like, if you’re starting something just because you want to ride the wave of the thing that’s hot right now, or you want to get into podcasting, or, you know, whatever it is, if you’re doing it because you think there’s a niche or you think there’s a trend or something, it’s not going to work.

Melody: Right.

Erin: And if you’re doing it with somebody who you don’t love –

Melody: Yeah.

Erin: – it’s not going to work. Or at least, like, respect enough that it borders on love, I would say.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Melody: Yeah!

Erin: Because it, it really, that really comes through, and I think that’s the difference between a successful podcast and an unsuccessful podcast.

Melody: I agree. I completely agree. Yeah, I think that if Erin and I had tried to do any of the other ideas we kicked around, whether it was The Bachelor podcast or, like, a True Crime podcast or, like, whatever it was –

Erin: Mm-hmm.

Melody: – I don’t think that it would have been sustainable, because, God, we love this! Like –

Erin: Yeah.

Melody: – this is absolutely a labor of love, and, and I find that even if, like, even during the weeks, if I’m really down or something and I’m like, ugh! I do not want to do this editing; like, it’s going to be hours of my life, the moment I start and I listen to our conversation back again –

Sarah: Yep!

Melody: – and I’m giggling along with us once again, or I’m, like, really engaged in, in the book or, you know, whatever we’re talking about, I’m like –

Sarah: Yep!

Melody: – oh my God, this isn’t, this isn’t hard! I’m just, like, listening to my conversation with my best friend again! Like, that’s fucking fun! So –

Erin: Uh-huh.

Melody: – yeah, definitely the secret ingredient is love. Yeah.

Sarah: I completely agree with you. And that’s really good advice, because it, it asks that you consider the why. Why are you doing this? Why is, why is this a work that you are undertaking, and why do you want to do this? And if it is delivering a sort of intrinsic joy while you do it, then it’s always worth it. Like, I love my podcast. I love it so much, and I –

Erin: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – enjoy so much of it, and I love thinking, you know, I wonder if this completely random person who doesn’t know me would talk to me? Let’s find out! I –

Erin: [Laughs] Yeah!

Sarah: – love it! I love it so much, and I, I can always tell when someone is having a really good time on their show. It’s the, it’s, it’s the almost-intangible-but-extremely-visible element of a podcast.

Melody: Mm!

Erin: Yeah, and I think even when you’re doing like a snarky thing, like, even when we hate a book, we love that – you know, like, it’s, it’s still about love, because we love the genre.

Melody: Yes.

Erin: Yeah, I think there are some people who are like, ooh, I’ll do, like, a snarky podcast that just, like, makes fun of whatever, like bad movies or bad books or whatever, and if you don’t love movies or you don’t love books and you don’t actually love reading or watching those things –

Melody: Mm-hmm.

Erin: – you’re not, it’s not going to work out.

Sarah: So I always ask this question: what are you reading that you want to tell people about?

Erin: Oh, that I want to tell people? We’ve got to record a –

[cross-talk]

Erin: – in less than an hour here about something that I don’t want to tell people about. I am dreading it now!

Melody: Okay –

Erin: I don’t know about you.

Melody: – listen. [Laughs] Here I go.

[Laughter]

Melody: All right, I’m just looking at my Kindle real quick. One: there is this, there’s this little book called New Girl in Town by Rebel Carter, and –

Erin: Oh yeah!

Melody: – oh my God, it is this, it’s this Latinx heroine and a younger man, and it is so – ah! – it’s so quick, and it’s so fun, and it’s so heartfelt and, like, there is some public sex that really did it for me. It is delicious. So that’s one thing.

Also, this is the week that Brazen and the Beast came out. I have already started it, and I, I couldn’t stop myself. Like, I’m, I’m reading the book that, that we have to read for the podcast, and yet I could not stop myself from opening up Brazen and the Beast by Sarah MacLean.

“The Year of Hattie” is just making my absolute life! It is this Regency heroine just taking charge of her damn self, and oh! It’s everything that I love! That’s another –

Sarah: Did you just start chewing on your microphone? Like, that was –

[Cross-talk, laughter]

Erin: The sounds that come out of that side of our podcast are sometimes just like –

Melody: [Laughs]

Erin: – like, just confounding. Like, you have no idea, like, how, what those sounds are. [Indistinct]

Sarah: No, I’m loving it; it’s the greatest.

Melody: Yep! [Laughs]

Okay, and I just read That Kind of Guy by Talia Hibbert, which is this demisexual hero. I, I actually think I just reread it? I don’t know. It’s one of those, a lot of Talia Hibbert books for me are like a, they’re a –

Sarah: Mm-hmm?

Melody: – comfort read, you know? Like, when I, I just am having a day or I hate a book that we’re reading or whatever, I’m just like, there is good in the world, and Talia Hibbert writes it! So that’s one.

And, let me see –

Erin: I’ll say, I haven’t read this recently. Honestly, I have a time, I’m a slower reader, very slow by romance standards.

Melody: Yeah.

Erin: I did not read a book a week before starting this podcast –

Melody: [Laughs]

Erin: – so finishing a book in a week has been, like, a huge struggle for me, so usually what I’ve been reading lately is just whatever we’re reading for the podcast.

But I will say, we had a little bit of break a couple months ago, and I read a book by another, an Alaskan author, Erin McLellan, called Clean Break. It’s the second book in her series, of which I’ve not read the first one. I’ve only read this one, but I heard the first one was really good. And it’s a male/male New Adult romance. It’s an enemies-to-lovers story with, like, some –

Melody: Oh, you love an enemies-to-lovers!

Erin: I love an enemies-to-lovers with, like, some spanking. [Laughs] It’s just, it was just very, it’s just a little catnip-y, little light read that I really enjoyed. Yeah, Clean Break.

Melody: And I just read, okay, so I, I just bought the Hilariously Ever After compilation by so many authors that you know. I’m trying to find, like, going through my Kindle, trying to find the start of it/the end of it and all those things.

But I just read, I think it’s called Pucked by Helena Hunting, and on paper it should be everything that I hate, because it’s a hockey, it’s a –

Erin: I didn’t know you read a hockey!

Melody: I read a hockey dude! Yeah, I forgot to tell you! I forgot to tell you –

[Cross-talk]

Erin: – talk to me. No, it’s fine.

Melody: Ah! Yeah, so I read a hockey, and it’s, like, not only that, but it’s like the, the heroine is a little bit like slut-shame-y, but the only way that it makes it good is because it’s equal opportunity slut-shaming? It’s not just saying, oh, look at those Puck Bunnies! It’s also like, ugh! Look at that guy, you know, with, like, all the Puck Bunnies or whatever. So that makes it a little bit better. Anyway, it was wonderful. It was like this little rom-com romp, and I loved it from start to finish. Oh, there’s a monster cock, and you know, like, that’s not always, yeah, I’m not always here for a monster cock. I was here for it!

Erin: Oh, bullshit!

Melody: [Laughs]

Erin: [Indistinct] You’re here for an alien monster cock –

Melody: Oh sure!

Erin: – you’re here for a Bigfoot monster cock.

Melody: Listen, I am not here for an earthly monster cock!

Erin: How dare you go on Smart Bitches and try to be all demure?

Sarah: [Laughs]

Erin: [Indistinct] some monster cock.

Melody: I’m just saying that a lot of times in romance novels there are monster cocks, and I’m like, I don’t think you need one! I think that he can just know what to do with his average cock!

Erin: [Laughs]

Melody: You know? That’s all I’m saying!

Erin: [Indistinct]

Melody: Anyway, Hilariously Ever After was a wonderful little purchase, and –

Sarah: Fabulous!

Melody: – Helena Hunting is, is part of it.

Sarah: That’s, that’s, like, plenty. Do not worry; this is fabulous.

Erin: So that’s like fifteen!

Sarah: Is there anything else you want to add?

[Laughter]

Sarah: Other than the fact that Melody and I are going to talk again on Tuesday night. It’s going to be video. Oy.

Erin: [Laughs] Yeah. I want to say, if we, if we were to plug anything except for just our podcast, even if you don’t listen to our podcast but you’re a romance person, we have this Facebook group that’s a closed book – closed book – closed group –

Melody: Yep.

Erin: – called the Heaving Bosoms Geriatric Friendship Cult. It’s kind of an inside joke from the podcast, but it is just over a thousand members, so it’s pretty small for, like, a –

Melody: For a Facebook group, yeah.

Erin: – a romance Facebook group?

Melody: It’s bigger than our wildest dreams –

Erin: And there is not –

Melody: – ever allowed, but it’s small for a Facebook group.

Erin: – there is not –

Sarah: Yes, that’s true.

Erin: There’s no assholes in that group.

Melody: No!

Erin: Not one asshole. Not one.

Melody: It’s incredible!

Erin: So if you’re an asshole, don’t join it –

Melody: Yeah!

Erin: – but if you are not and you’re looking for a place where you can just, like, talk about anything –

Melody: Or you can go to just, like, have a, have a pump-me-up. We just had a person, like, take a selfie and be like, hey, I couldn’t show this on my regular page, but I’m feeling kind of proud of, like, this thing, and of course I was like, oh my God, you look gorgeous! And, like, there were three hundred comments, you know, immediately.

Erin: Yeah.

Melody: It’s just a lovely, lovely place to exist, and it’s funny, and everybody is just whip-smart, and it’s just one of those, the most supportive places I’ve ever experienced, and –

Erin: It’s incredible.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Melody: I love it!

Erin: Yes, yes!

Melody: Yeah.

Sarah: Will you send me a link, please, so I can put it in the show notes?

Erin: Oh sure!

Melody: Yeah, absolutely.

Sarah: Thank you! I will make sure to specify, no assholes. No assholes allowed.

Erin: No assholes. We’ll kick you out. We’ve got four moderators.

Melody: We do! We have become [indistinct] sort of. [Laughs]

Erin: We haven’t had to murder anyone yet.

Melody: Yeah.

Erin: You know, future asshole –

Sarah: It happens, and you know, you’re in Alaska! It’s easy to dispose of a body.

Erin: It is, it is. I could do a whole podcast on that, but we will not do it here.

Melody: Yeah, we will refrain.

[Laughter]

[music]

Sarah: I hope you enjoyed that episode as much as I enjoyed recording it. You can find the Heaving Bosoms podcast on their website, heavingbosoms.libsyn.com, and they’re on Twitter @Heaving_Bosoms, but I of course will link to every place, and if you search Heaving Bosoms in the apps that you use to listen to podcasts, they will show up right at the top, and you should absolutely subscribe.

You can find me at [email protected], or you can get in touch with me by phone and leave a message at 1-201-371-3272. However you like to get in touch with me, I love hearing from you, so please feel free to email me all of your ideas and suggestions.

And of course I will not forget to link to the Heaving Bosoms Geriatric Friendship Cult on Facebook.

This week’s podcast sponsor is More Muffia, book two in the Muffia series by Ann Royal Nicholas. Muffia book club member and celebrity talent agent Quinn is returning from business in Japan when she sees her fellow Muff’s former Israeli lover Udi, who is supposed to be dead. Back in LA, the Muffs agree Udi’s probably alive, but it’s too dangerous to find out. Quinn’s resolution to become a better person – dump her married lover, commence online dating, resume pole-dancing class – hits a road block when her boss Jamie confronts her with compromising photos and threatens to fire her. Now Quinn must find out who’s trying to sabotage her, urged on by former SEAL team member and borrowed, by-the-book private investigator Frank Sexton. While her fellow Muffs are busy with myriad antics and planning a swanky benefit for Alzheimer’s disease, Quinn finds herself falling for Frank, and as the eve of the benefit arrives, her deepest wishes just might come true! More Muffia and all the books in the Muffia series can be found wherever books are sold and are also available digitally. Find out more at annroyalnicholas.com.

Today’s podcast transcript, as always, hand-compiled by garlicknitter – thank you, garlicknitter! – is sponsored by The Winemaker’s Wife by Kristin Harmel. Fans of The Tattooist of Auschwitz and Martha Hall Kelly will love this heartfelt, compelling novel set in World War II France. When Ines marries Michel, owner of the storied champagne house Maison Chauveau, she never imagined their lives would be ripped asunder by the specter of war, but now they face a vital choice: do they join the Resistance against the Nazis occupying the region, or does that pose too great a risk for them and the people they love, including Celine, the Jewish wife of their chef de cave. The daring, sometimes rash decisions they make have consequences stretching long beyond the war to the present day, and a precious secret hidden in the champagne cellars of Chauveau. PopSugar calls The Winemaker’s Wife “…a heart-wrenching story about how one decision can change our lives, perfect for fans of The Nightingale.” And Armando Lucas Correa, author of The German Girl, says, “Once you start reading this moving novel, you will not be able to put it down until you reach the last page.” The Winemaker’s Wife by Kristin Harmel is on sale now wherever books are sold. Find out more at simonandschuster.com.

Hello, Patreon supporters, and thank you for being awesome. I deeply, deeply appreciate your support. Every time I get an email that there is a new pledge I get so excited, and I cannot tell you how much I appreciate each pledge that you make. If you would like to join our Patreon community: patreon.com/SmartBitches. Pledges start at one dollar a month, and your support means everything, so thank you.

The music that you are listening to is the Peatbog Faeries. This is “Strictly Sambuca” from their album Blackhouse. You can find it on Amazon and on iTunes and wherever you get your funky, funky music.

Now, I always end with a bad joke, and this week is no exception. This one’s pretty terrible. You ready? Okay. Don’t say I didn’t warn you.

What is a mathematician’s favorite type of toilet paper?

Give up? What is a mathematician’s favorite type of toilet paper?

Multi-ply.

Isn’t that terrible? [Laughs] Multi-ply.

And it’s amazing how the choice of toilet paper in your home makes such a difference in your daily life. I did not know until I was old enough to, you know, shop for my own supplies like that where I was like, wow! This makes quite a difference!

That joke comes from /ClarkeFishing on Reddit. Thank you, and if you need more dad jokes, well, end of every episode I provide one, because I’m a terrible human being. [Laughs]

On behalf of everyone here, we wish you the very best of reading. Have a great weekend, and we will see you back here next week.

[cosmic music]