353. Setting Boundaries and Getting Help: A Candid Conversation with Dr. Kelly J. Baker

[music]

Sarah Wendell: Hey there. Welcome to episode number 353 of Smart Podcast, Trashy Books. I’m Sarah Wendell from Smart Bitches, Trashy Books. With me today is Dr. Kelly J. Baker. She was part of my episode with Dr. Tressie McMillan Cottom when we talked about paranormal romance. This time, she and I are talking about setting boundaries. Kelly and I are going to talk about the expectations placed upon people, especially women, and the ways groups of people keep one another in line with enforced expectations of behavior, and how much shame and shaming play a role in that exercise. We are also talking about emotional labor and how when people, often women, refuse to tolerate unpaid emotional labor and they say no, usually someone who is vulnerable pays a price. It’s, it’s a whole thing. As I read in Burnout, which we also talked about, it can be a challenge to have empathy and compassion for a person or a group who is trying to push you back in line with their expectations of behavior, knowing that in a lot of ways they may be driven by internalized misogyny or, or patriarchy or just how they’ve been treated. Tho-, those same expectations come in many subtle, damaging messages, and we’re going to talk about a whole bunch of them. We’re also going to dish on the PTA a lot, and I bet maybe you also have some PTA stories.

I would like you to tell me about them – [laughs] – or you could just tell me what you think of episode or give me suggestions. I love hearing from you. You can reach me at sbjpodcast@gmail.com, or you can call and leave a message at 1-201-371-3272. Tell me a joke, tell me about the PTA, tell me about a time when you set boundaries and refused to tolerate the expected behavior that someone was enforcing upon you. I want to hear about it, and I love hearing from you.

This episode is brought to you by The Second Chance Rancher by Kate Pearce. Spinning off of her popular Morgan Ranch series, New York Times bestselling author Kate Pearce introduces the Millers of Morgantown. It might be the pride of hard work on rugged terrain, the welcoming community, or the memories, but wherever the folks of Morgantown may roam, they have a way of coming back to the ranch. When Jackson Lymond returns from serving in the Air Force, the last thing he expects is to strike up a friendship with Daisy Miller, the girl he always noticed in high school, even though she thought she was invisible. Could they have another shot at lasso love? The Second Chance Rancher by Kate Pearce is available wherever books are sold and at kensingtonbooks.com.

The transcript for this episode is being brought to you by our Patreon community. If you have supported the show with any pledge at any amount, you are helping make sure that every episode receives a transcript, and you’re helping keep the show going! If you would like to join the Patreon community, please have a look at patreon.com/SmartBitches. Every contribution makes a deeply, deeply appreciated difference, and I can’t tell you how exciting it is to know that someone has had a look at our Patreon page. Thank you so very much for thinking or doing or being part of the community.

I have a whole bunch of stuff to tell you about after the episode. I’m going to tell you what music this is. I have a preview of what’s coming up on the site. And I have a truly terrible joke. We also talk about a lot of books and a lot of articles, including a really powerful article that Kelly wrote about seeking help when it comes to mental illness. I will have links to all of those things.

But before we get started, I want to make sure to make it clear, we talk a lot about gender expectations, enforced behavior, snarky emails, but we also talk a lot about mental health and getting help, especially in the last, mm, third of the episode. Kelly has been very candid about her own efforts and her own progress in seeking mental help with depression and anxiety, and we talk a lot about that as well. If that is a topic that you would find upsetting or distressing, you might want to stop after we start talking about getting help and how difficult it is.

In the meantime, on with the interview with Kelly J. Baker.

[music]

Dr. Kelly J. Baker: I am Kelly Baker. I’m currently the editor of a feminist magazine called Women in Higher Education, and the title pretty much tells you all you need to know about that. I’m also the author of a few different types of books, from academic monographs to personal essay. My latest book is called Final Girl, and it’s about mental illness and trauma and coming to terms with survival. So I wear a bunch of different hats. I’m also the parent to two remarkably chatty, never-have-a-thought-that-isn’t-expressed children. [Laughs]

Sarah: Oh, I have, I have, I have children like that.

Kelly: And a, you know, partner, and I have a dog who’s recovering from knee surgery, so that’s a lot of things about me that are all in that one statement.

Sarah: That is a lot to carry.

Kelly: [Laughs] It feels like a lot to carry lately.

Sarah: Now, as an academic, you have studied religion and white supremacy, is that right?

Kelly: It is right! Yeah, that’s what my first book is on, is looking at the, the Klan and how they understand religion and nationalism and how they use them both to gain membership and how they had this moment in the ‘20s where they were super popular, and that’s not entirely relevant at all to what’s happening now, so, you know, those are separate things.

Sarah: No, I was going to say, they’re not experiencing a resurgence in popularity in a different set of ‘20s.

Kelly: Right, a different set of things, yeah. It is one of those things where the Klan has kind of come out of fashion, but the white nationalism piece is here to stay for a while longer, unfortunately. And so it’s weird, as a historian, when your work becomes interestingly relevant in the contemporary. [Laughs]

Sarah: I’m always fascinated by this idea that when – we have this very myopic view of current events –

Kelly: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – in the media. Like, this has never happened before!

Kelly: I know!

Sarah: No, this has always been true!

Kelly: Yes, exactly.

Sarah: Like, we just have better words and language for it, but this has always been the case.

Kelly: Yeah, I always get the sort of kick out of the people that are like, I had never thought about this before, and I had never heard it! And I’m like, are you serious? Like, like, I can understand, like, a certain level –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Kelly: – at which, you know, American history classes in high school and sometimes in colleges are not great with dealing with things like white supremacist activism, but it is, like, this really funny thing where it’s like, oh, white nationalism is brand-new! And I’m just like, oh, excuse me while I, like, bang my head on the desk for a few hours, because this is just, it is! Right, you know, it’s so much in everything that we do and just to kind of be able to be like, oh, I’ve just now noticed it, is a level of privilege that’s a little bit disturbing to me.

Sarah: And it’s always a white guy who’s like, I’ve figured it out! I know what it is!

Kelly: [Laughs]

Sarah: Like, thank you, we’ve been talking about this for literally hundreds of years.

Kelly: Yeah. Yeah, no, I have that happen a lot –

Sarah: But thanks!

Kelly: – where, you know, white guys that pop into my mentions on Twitter and are like, I finally think that what you’re saying is valid, and I’m like, oh, oh! I can go on! Right? Like, my life has meaning –

Sarah: Thank you!

Kelly: – because, random Twitter citizen, you have decided to comfort me about my life’s work and tell me that I actually am doing something important. Yeah, I mean, it is the most kind of ridiculous thing that happens there, where I’m always like, do you just, what? Do you just show up in women’s mentions all the time? And the answer, of course, is yes, right?

Sarah: Yeah! Because they have nothing better to do than to walk around validating women’s opinions like parking tickets.

Kelly: Yeah, that’s right. Like – [laughs] – that’s just such a funny image where it’s like, STAMP; we’re so glad you’re here!

Sarah: I have approved of you! Aren’t you feeling good now?

Together: I have approved you.

Sarah: But you have all you need now. I always wonder, like, if you look at women like Ida B. Wells –

Kelly: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – who was like, you know what? I’m going to study lynching –

Kelly: Right.

Sarah: – up close. I’m going to go into the South as a Black woman researcher, and I’m going to study lynching, because while obviously this is a valid thing to do, imagine her on Twitter.

Kelly: Oh, can you imagine? I know. I think she –

Sarah: Oh my God.

Kelly: – she would just, like –

Sarah: What would her mentions look like?

Kelly: They would be terrible! I mean, and I –

Sarah: Oh my dear God.

Kelly: – and I only get a, I mean, I get a fraction. Like, I have colleagues who are women of color who are working on racism, and their mentions are routinely a dumpster fire.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Kelly: So I only get a fraction of what they get, but it’s just incredible! Like, there’s a friend of mine who jokes that, like, I comment in facts on Twitter? Like, I say thing that is a fact, and she’s like, who knew that facts could be so controversial? Because it just kind of –

Sarah: I know!

Kelly: – blows up in a way that I’m like, wait! I don’t, but we know this! Like, I’m not saying anything new necessarily; I’m just kind of pointing it out again – [laughs] – and it just, it’s incredible, where I’m like, well, I’m just going to shut down Twitter for seventy-two hours and never look back, right?

Sarah: Yeah.

Kelly: Yeah. No, it’s – but yeah, I can’t imagine how that would look in any sort of way.

Sarah: Staggering, isn’t it?

Kelly: Yeah, yeah.

Sarah: So what we’re actually going to be talking about is –

Kelly: [Laughs]

Sarah: – very related, as a matter of fact! You and I have been casually corresponding about setting boundaries for –

Kelly: Exactly.

Sarah: – since, since we talked with you and me and Tressie Mc-, McMillan Cottom about paranormal romance and –

Kelly: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – and the embedded racism of fantasy, but since then, you and I have been having this ongoing conversation about setting boundaries and –

Kelly: Yeah.

Sarah: – how mindblowingly easy and difficult it is at the same time.

Kelly: Yes. I mean, it’s that magical power of saying no that, that I, I’ve done this periodically in my life where I’m like, I can say no to things, and then –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Kelly: – you know, I say no for a while, and then what happens is, I feel like it’s obligation creep? So I’ll be really good at saying no for a while, and then someone’ll be like, oh, but I think you would be perfect for this! And I’m like, oh sure! And then –

Sarah: Flattery!

Kelly: – someone else’ll do it, and I’m like, yeah, okay! And then I look at my schedule, and I’m like, what have I done to myself?

Sarah: Yep. Yep.

Kelly: [Laughs]

Sarah: And there’s compounded, intersecting forms of obligation and expectation.

Kelly: Yeah.

Sarah: So we’re both women –

Kelly: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – who have been socially inculcated to appease and care for everybody –

Kelly: Right.

Sarah: – plus I know that you are Southern, which comes with a whole other set of expectations.

Kelly: [Laughs] It really does!

Sarah: I went to a South-, I went to a Southern women’s college, and I was the only Yankee for, like, three years, and I spent many, many, many, many days being told about my accent, which I found –

Kelly: Uh-huh.

Sarah: – high-larious –

Kelly: Yeah.

Sarah: – ‘cause I was actually from Pittsburgh, which has its own regional accent – but the expectation of Southern white female decorum is like –

Kelly: Oh. It’s the worst. [Laughs]

Sarah: – that, that’s like a whole set of encyclopedias if you wrote that all down!

Kelly: Right, and, well, and it’s funny, because I’ve – this will be shocking to you – I have really tried to work against that, and, which does not –

Sarah: What?!

Kelly: What? I know. Well, it’s one of the things where after about the second or third tattoo, it was kind of like –

[Laughter]

Sarah: Oh honey.

Kelly: – you know, that I was not playing the same kind of game, you know, that they –

Sarah: Oh, absolutely yes.

Kelly: – are necessarily playing? And at this point I have a full sleeve, and I have many more tattoos, and my daughter who is ten’s friends are like, oh yeah, the tattooed mom, and I’m like, yep! That’s where we are. But it’s also one of those things where it’s just, I mean, it’s so encoded and it’s so culturally trained, you know, about the sort of politeness piece and about the sort of way that you can be nice while also eviscerating someone, which is kind of an –

Sarah: Oh yes.

Kelly: – an incredible thing to, to witness, and –

Sarah: Oh yeah. Coded language is – woof!

Kelly: The coded language and the sort of expectation of what women’s work is versus what men’s work – I mean, it’s just kind of wild to me, especially as I kind of moved out of it in some ways, that I was like, whoa! Like, this is a thing that, when you’re in it, you can’t necessarily recognize the rules? [Laughs]

Sarah: Yeah. Oh yeah.

Kelly: But now, but now I interact with these moms at both of my kids’ schools that I’m just like, oh man. Oh, like, I, like, I can’t even care about my hair that many days of the week.

Sarah: Yeah.

Kelly: Like, I just can’t do it. Like, it’s impossible. If I want to write anything –

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Kelly: – my hair cannot look like this. [Laughs] And I can’t always look perfectly put together! You know, like, this is, I was like, this is an amount of effort that I refuse to sacrifice sleep or writing time for. Like, I just won’t do it! But it is that kind of performance, right, of, like, we always –

Sarah: Yep.

Kelly: – look put together, and our lipstick is always on, and, you know, we act in a certain way, and we chitchat in certain ways, and there are things that we value and things that we don’t, and then you better not be honest about your feelings. [Laughs]

Sarah: No. I remember very clearly being on the phone with one of my very best friends from college who now lives in a small town in South Carolina, and she said, well, I have to go because I have to put on lipstick before I go into the Harris Teeter, and I can’t talk while I’m putting on lipstick, and I’m like, wait, you have to put on lipstick before you go in the grocery? And she’s like, if my mom finds out that I was in Harris Teeter –

Kelly: Oh –

Sarah: – and I didn’t have lipstick on, I will hear about it.

Kelly: It’s a thing.

Sarah: And I was like, you, do you understand how incredibly strange the words coming out of your mouth are? And she says, yes, why do you think I told you? You’re the only one who’s going to say back to me, now, that’s weird.

Kelly: Yeah. Like, this is a strange thing, right, that’s happening here. Yeah, I mean, it is this kind of funny piece of that, right, and that, that expectation of performance, and a very gendered performance of this, and you know, and it’s just one of those where I’m like, maybe I’m just going to look like a mess, and, and granted, I’m not a mess, right, but, but it’s just like, maybe, compared to these women – [laughs] – I am, ‘cause I feel like I always only run into them when I’m, like, on the second day of a T-shirt and I’ve, like, thrown on, like, jeans shorts, and I’ve, like, struggled to pick up a child from school because there are other things going on, and they’re like, hey, Kelly, and I’m like, hey! I feel really judged!

Sarah: You have to look perfect.

Kelly: Right? [Laughs]

Sarah: Exactly. You have to look perfect, but it has to be effortless, because if you step out of line it’s threatening to everyone else.

Kelly: That’s exactly right.

Sarah: One of my favorite things about the book Burnout by Emily and Amelia Nagoski is the ways in which internalized misogyny creates an, an environment where women keep each other in line –

Kelly: Yep.

Sarah: – because stepping out of line is dangerous to everyone.

Kelly: Yeah. I mean, it’s wild. So one of my favorite stories ever is that I’m a mom who works, and in the neighborhood I’m in, there are lots of working moms, right? There just aren’t a ton of working moms in the PTO. So this is a few years ago, and it was right before spring break, and spring break always coincides with this conference that I have to cover for my magazine. This happens every year, and so I usually spend like half of spring break at a conference and then half of spring break doing stuff with small children. So we’re sitting around –

Sarah: Yep.

Kelly: – and, like, everybody’s talking about, like, I’m going to the beach, right, for this many days, and we’re going to this place, and we’re going to this place, and someone turns to me and says, Kelly, what are you doing over spring break? And I’m like, I’m going to a conference to work, and there was, like, a collective, like – [gasps] – in the room, and I was like, what just happened here? [Laughs] But it was like horror upon horrors that I did not have, like, a perfectly planned vacation for the kids, and I was like, you know some of us work, right? Like, that that’s a thing that we do –

Sarah: Yeah.

Kelly: – to pay mortgages?

Sarah: So how have you been setting boundaries for yourself differently in the past few months? We’ve talked about PTA and email –

Kelly: Yeah, yeah.

Sarah: – and working and quitting and being like, fuck all of this! What are some of the –

Kelly: Yeah.

Sarah: – powerful boundaries you’ve set for yourself?

Kelly: Well, one of the first was I decided that I was going to say no to anything that didn’t instantly appeal to me. So as you can imagine, I get lots of offers to do things, and –

Sarah: Yep!

Kelly: – often I’m like, aw, it would be nice of me to do this! Right, like, this would be a nice thing to do, and maybe I should do this! And then what happens is I say yes, and then I get really resentful about it, where I’m like –

Sarah: Yeah.

Kelly: – why did I agree to do this? I don’t actually want to do this. I just did this because people expect me to be a people pleaser, because I tend to be, and then I end up in these scenarios because they know this about me – [laughs] – and now I’m stuck doing this stuff I don’t want to do.

Sarah: Yep.

Kelly: And so that like the first rule I decided. I was like, if I’m not instantly like, yes!

Sarah: Yes!

Kelly: I’m going to make this work, and this brings me some sort of joy – or some sort of work opportunity too – right, like, if this is going to fit somewhere in with what I want to do, then I’ll do it. And so it’s amazing! Some people would be like, hey, don’t you want to come out to my campus for, like, five dollars and, like, go to three classes and give a lecture? And I’m like, no, I actually don’t. And they would be like, okay! And I was like, oh! Huh! [Laughs] That’s kind of neat. So that cut down on a lot of stuff, where I was doing this thing because I felt like I needed to, or maybe somebody needs help, and if someone needs help, I feel like I’m the person to go to, ‘cause I’m like, let me help you fix it! Right? It doesn’t take long for people to realize that about you, like, you’re that type of person.

Sarah: Yeah.

Kelly: And so I was like, I’m, I’m not going to do this, right? Like, if it doesn’t have some advantage to me, which I’m still, it serve-, settles me, right, ‘cause it kind of feels selfish, even though I know it’s not. And then the other thing I did is I decided that the PTO brought me no joy – [laughs] – because I’ve been involved with it since my youngest, my oldest was in kindergarten, and now she’s in fourth grade, and –

Sarah: It’s so necessary and so awful.

Kelly: Oh, I mean, like, it, I was like, this is important work, and then I was like, oh my gosh, this is hellish, right? Like –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Kelly: – like, I am responsible for all kinds of things. No one is ever happy, right. Like, it is impossible for me to do anything to make anyone happy. It’s actually not as much about the kids – [laughs] –

Sarah: No.

Kelly: – shockingly, as I hoped it would be? And so I was like –

Sarah: No.

Kelly: – I was like, this is miserable, and I hate this! And it is to the point where I was teasing my partner that I received a PTO email this week, and I was like, the moment of incandescent rage that I have when they ask me for anything means that it was a good thing that I quit all the stuff that I did.

[Laughter]

Kelly: And they’re still asking, right? They’re still like, we need someone to do this, or we need someone to do that, and because I had volunteered for a while, they kind of assume that I’m a safe bet, so it’s been hard for some of those folks to wrap their head around the fact that I actually don’t have to do this free labor? [Laughs]

Sarah: Yes.

Kelly: So – ‘cause my –

Sarah: It’s like, it’s like spending a year being a bridesmaid.

Kelly: Oh! Oh, I know, right, and no one cares, and –

Sarah: No! And the stakes are so low.

Kelly: [Laughs] So low! I was like, I’m –

Sarah: The, the negativity is so high.

Kelly: Yeah! And I was like, the book fair will go on, right, with or without me. Like, it’s not going to stop somehow, but I really could deal less with angry parents in my face because they waited until the last day of the book fair to buy the book that their kid wanted. Right, I’m like, how is – it’s not – I work here for free. Why, what?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Kelly: Or their, like, level of passive-aggressive emails? Oh my gosh! It’s amazing! And then I had, someone at a, a, my last PTO event actually suggested that I was difficult? And I had to really work hard to not, like, nuke them from space. [Laughs]

Sarah: Oh my God. Oh, you should see my face right now!

Kelly: Oh, I was so angry! ‘Cause I was like, I was like, I’m one of the few volunteers that showed up for something that doesn’t even involve my kids! I’m like, so, this is not me being difficult; this is me having an opinion, right.

Sarah: And having boundaries.

Kelly: And having boundaries. And, and so that has been sort of wild, because I think what I’ve really learned about this is, as soon as you set boundaries, people test them, right.

Sarah: Oh yes.

Kelly: And so this has been our, my, like, Jurassic Park analogy that I’ve been rolling on, which is, every time, like, the raptors test the fences, I just crank the electricity up a little bit more, right? So –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Kelly: – so it’s like I set this boundary, and then you come at me, and I’m like, oh, now it’s like an even firmer boundary! Right, ‘cause you’ve shown me what kind of person you are, and so now I’m even going to be less charitable to –

Sarah: Yep.

Kelly: – the requests that you have because of the way you’re constantly, like, coming at me to test me about these things, right, where it’s like, well, she didn’t do this; maybe I can get her to do this, right? Or maybe I can be rude to her in this way and still get her to do something for me, and I was like, you know what I don’t have time for? [Laughs] People who are not nice! Shockingly, again. That’s been really interesting to me, and that, I mean, it’s like a running joke where we’re like, just crank it up a little bit more, right?

Sarah: Yep.

Kelly: And to kind of make this clear, and to be very upfront about the boundaries, too, I think, is what I’m learning. So previously, I would kind of let people push me and push me, and then I would react, and now I’m just like, this is how this is going to go. [Laughs]

Sarah: Yep.

Kelly: And I’m not mean about it, right. It’s just a very firm, like –

Sarah: Oh no.

Kelly: – this is how we’re going to play this, so.

Sarah: I, I know I told you this, but the PTA in my school system is called the PTSA: Parent Teacher Student Association –

Kelly: [Laughs]

Sarah: – and that’s one letter away from PTSD?

Kelly: Yeah, yeah it is.

Sarah: Every time I see it I’m like, oh my God, it’s the PTSD! Oh, no, it’s the PTA. I get really prickly when people waste my time?

Kelly: Oh, isn’t it the worst?

Sarah: And it’s so disrespectful to me. It’s still unacceptable to –

Kelly: Yes.

Sarah: – to waste someone’s time, especially wasting people’s time by not being able to make a decision –

Kelly: Ohhh.

Sarah: So I remember, at our old school system in New Jersey, there were two women who would get involved with PTA things. Like, they would run a thing, and I would go up to them, and I would say, please do not add me to your email list; please don’t tell anyone that I’m volunteering; but I will do anything you want me to do. Tell me when, tell me where, I am there, and I will do it.

Kelly: Right.

Sarah: And one of them was a restaurant owner, and she’s like, can you work the bake sale between five and seven? Like, absolutely! I’ll be there. What do you need me to bring? Okay, done. It was like –

Kelly: Right.

Sarah: – I could text the conversation with her –

Kelly: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – and it was effective, and then when one of them became president, I was like, I will quietly do whatever you need me to do. Just tell me what you need, but please don’t get me involved with people who are going to waste my time getting angry about things that I just can’t care about.

Kelly: Well, and it’s like the email chains from the hell, right?

Sarah: Oh dear God.

Kelly: And it’s like, so it’s like I go to bed, and then I wake up the next morning, and I’m like, first of all, it seems these women don’t also sleep, right, and, and it’s like this email chain where I’m like, I don’t know what is happening, but it doesn’t take thirty-two emails to make a decision about popsicles for an event at the school.

Sarah: Except that it’s popsicles for an event at the school, so of course you need thirty-five different opinions.

Kelly: Right, where I was like, or I could just go to Costco and solve this right now.

Sarah: Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

Kelly: But it’s never that kind of level of things, or, you know, or it’s the, like, the emergency request – this is my favorite, right – where it’s like, it’s a PTO emergency! And I’m like, it can’t be.

Sarah: Is someone on fire?

Kelly: [Laughs] I’m like, because also, like, we’re not responsible for any super emergency – [laughs] – right? And if someone’s on fire, you need to call professionals. Like, you don’t need to be emailing all of us about this! But we had one president who, everything was an emergency.

Sarah: It’s like use of the word “literally.” Emergency no longer means emergency now.

Kelly: It doesn’t, right? I mean, it’s –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Kelly: – it’s a PTA emergency! I would get an email from her, and I’m like, balloon colors are not an urgent decision, and how did I end up in a world where I’m getting emails about this? Like, where did I go wrong? [Laughs]

Sarah: And when you look at it through the frame of, why do we behave like this? Why is this something that is so common? Like, I guarantee you, people are going to be listening to this going, oh my God, me too! I need to tell you my PTA story! Everyone has a PTA story.

Kelly: Right, everyone!

Sarah: But everyone has some kind of organizational dysfunction story where they’re like, yeah, I know this story, and then you look at it through the frame of why do we do this? Why are we –

Kelly: Right.

Sarah: – so vicious when someone steps out of line and says, I’m not doing this anymore?

Kelly: Right.

Sarah: Like, what is the threat? Is the threat recognizing that this isn’t actually worth this much misery? Because you don’t have to be miserable over popsicles and balloons.

Kelly: You really don’t. And –

Sarah: Like, you can just –

Kelly: – yeah.

Sarah: – move on.

Kelly: You could easily move on! Yeah, and I think it is that, that kind of expectation, and especially – and this might be true more universally, but just in my experience, it’s that this is an additional burden placed on moms, right. So there are moms that are expected to do the PTO stuff. It’s moms who are expected to volunteer in the classroom, and so it’s just like this weird way in which the moms that do stay in line are rewarded, right? They’re the parents that the teachers love – [laughs] – and the office staff loves, and, you know, everyone just kind of wants to do this, and I’m like, is that recognition worth it? I don’t think so, but then when I’m like, I can’t do this, people are like, why can’t you do this? You know, what else are you going to do with your time? And I’m like, oh, lots of things! Lots of things! You know.

Sarah: Like do nothing.

Kelly: Like do nothing. Like read a romance novel –

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Kelly: – and that would be awesome.

Sarah: Woohoo!

Kelly: ‘Cause I’m not dealing with thirty-two emails about popsicles! [Laughs]

Sarah: My, my favorite PTA story is my friend from New Jersey. She has a lot of experience with organizing and plants, so she was put in charge of the plant sale, and she had two other parents to help her. Plant sale, three o’clock; she organized all of her contacts. She got a whole new set of plants so that everyone could get something, even if it was a quarter, they would be able to buy a plant, plus the plant sale made money –

Kelly: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – because people would order baskets for the summer, so they had this massive hanging basket order form plastered at everywhere. It was a huge, huge success; they did great. Plant sale day comes along and the other two parents are like, oh, it’s at three? I can’t be there. I have to work.

Kelly: [Gasps, sighs]

Sarah: And she’s like, what did you think was – I have to do this – okay, fine, do it by herself. Roped in a neighbor; they both ran it. It was, it was hard, and she was like, I’m not doing this again –

Kelly: Yep.

Sarah: – and I’m like, I am, I am the, the terrible enabler friend? I’m like, no, you should not do that again.

Kelly: Right.

Sarah: Do not do – keep saying no. If you ever feel like weakening, I want you to text me, and I will call you and be like, say no. Repeat after me: Hell No.

Kelly: That’s right.

Sarah: So she wrote up everything she did. She wrote up all the steps. She was like, here is the manual to do what I did. Have fun. And they’re like, oh, thank you! Somebody else had volunteered. So the head of the PTA gives that manual to that person, who immediately resigns, because they were astonished at the work that they had to do –

Kelly: Yeah, they’re like, no way!

Sarah: – and they’re like, I –

Kelly: No way, right? No way will I do this.

Sarah: They’ve come back to my friend seven or eight times now: are you sure? Are you sure you won’t do this? You did such a good job, and we really need you! Are you sure that you can’t do this? And she’s like, I need you to text me to remind me to say no.

Kelly: Oh, I mean, and, well, and the guilt involved in this too, right? So I was in charge of the book fair until I dramatically was like, I am out. Like, I cannot do this anymore. Because it was like, run a store for two weeks with a volunteer staff, and so it was one of these things where, like, I could not get volunteers, so guess who’s working the bookstore – [laughs] – at 2:45 –

Sarah: Yep.

Kelly: – to four o’clock, and then rushing to pick up another child, right. And I was like, why am I doing this? And then they’re like, but you do such a good job, and who are we going to get? And I finally was like, you know what? It’s not my problem, actually.

Sarah: [Gasps] No!

Kelly: I know! I, it just, it took me a while to get there, where I was like, this makes me miserable every time I do it, and I am stressing over a book fair more than I stress over book deadlines for books I am writing –

Sarah: Yep.

Kelly: – and this is ridiculous.

Sarah: There is a very old psychological explanation, and I cannot remember who said it, but it’s basically, it’s the red sock in your load of whites.

Kelly: Yes!

Sarah: If you have one red sock, even if it’s a baby sock –

Kelly: Yep, doesn’t matter.

Sarah: – it will stain everything before and after all of it. Oh! I’m so proud of myself; good job, Sarah. The person who first wrote about this was a psychologist named Susan Haas –

Kelly: Oh cool!

Sarah: – and – yeah! It, it, it is the one red sock in your load of whites that will stain everything else around it, and you have to, you have to get rid of it. You just, it, you just have to get rid of it!

Kelly: It just has to go! And, yeah, and, and I mean, it’s one of those things where I’m like, I’m done. I’m not doing it any longer, and then they’re like, are you sure? And I’m like, still pretty sure! And they’re like, but we’re having a hard time finding someone to take this job! And I’m like, yeah, I know! It sucks! Right? [Laughs]

Sarah: Right? This is not a surprise!

Kelly: This is not something that people are going to – I’m like, no one likes you for this. No one.

Sarah: What’s the reward for having done it? Nothing!

Kelly: Oh, none. There’s no reward. And so that’s helped. I’ve also started deleting emails that don’t –

Sarah: Oh, please tell me all about this, ‘cause I –

Kelly: [Laughs]

Sarah: – we had the best conversation about how– okay, this is, okay, so here’s how much of an asshole I am? You were tweeting about email –

Kelly: Uh-huh.

Sarah: – so I emailed you, because I’m terrible.

Kelly: But it was perfect, because I was like, this is an email from someone who actually wants to have a conversation with me! Compared to the emails –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Kelly: – from people that just want me to do something for them. Right? I can hear –

Sarah: For free!

Kelly: For free! And they’re never asking me, like, politely. It’s always, like, a subtle ask where they don’t ask a question? So it’s very much –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Kelly: – them baiting me into being like, what do you need, right? And then they can be like, oh, I need you to do this, and then I’ll be, okay. And so I just started deleting them. [Laughs]

Sarah: Yep!

Kelly: And it’s, like, glorious, right, where I’m like, you don’t even know me, and you’re asking me to do something for free, and you didn’t even ask in a nice tone, so done! Right? Like, I’ll just delete it. And so I started doing that with PTO emails too, and it was even better. Where they’re like, we really need volunteers! And I’m like, delete! We really need this! Delete. Right? And I was like –

Sarah: Yep.

Kelly: – oh, this is the best thing I’ve ever done in my life!

Sarah: Right.

Kelly: [Laughs] Because why would I subject myself to this? And as you can imagine, if you’re a woman writer who has any kind of profile that people –

Sarah: Oh, tell me about it.

Kelly: – people want you to do things for them, and oftentimes it’s white guys who are like, I need you to read this piece for me before I send it out to an editor, and I’m like, who are you, random person who just emailed someone you don’t know to demand work? And so it used to bother me, where I was like, okay?

Sarah: For free?!

Kelly: I was like, maybe I should be helpful! And finally my partner is like, why are you doing this? Like, it doesn’t make any sense!

Sarah: Yep.

Kelly: And I’m like, oh! He’s like, I would just delete that shit, and I’m like, of course you would! [Laughs]

Sarah: Yeah!

Kelly: But again, it’s that, like, that socialization where I’m like, oh, I should help, right? That’s what we’re supposed to do, and bring people up with us!

Sarah: Then I worry about my tone! How do I sound in this email? Am I using enough exclamation points? Do I sound friendly?

Kelly: Mm-hmm!

Sarah: I have this great thing on my Google Chrome; it’s called Momentum Dash, and it’s, it’s always a beautiful picture, and then there’s a quote at the bottom –

Kelly: Okay.

Sarah: – so if I open a new tab I have this beautiful picture and then a quote that changes every day. Yesterday’s was from Peter Drucker: “There is nothing so useless as doing efficiently that which should not be done at all.”

Kelly: Oh, it’s perfect. Oh, it’s perfect.

Sarah: Right?

Kelly: It is!

Sarah: That, plus the idea that – and I can’t remember where I got this from, but it really changed the way – seriously, setting boundaries is so much about reframing how you see expectations and obligations – but the idea that it is the job of the email to convince me that a response is required.

Kelly: Yeah! Uh-huh.

Sarah: If, if it hasn’t convinced me that I need to respond, then I can delete it, and I’m like, what, wait, whoa! I have the option to just not answer.

Kelly: Right! And I think that’s the, the interesting piece for me is that I do this on Twitter too, is that I’ll have people, like, roll up in my mentions, you know –

Sarah: Yep!

Kelly: – with a question or with a request, and I just decided, like, I don’t have to respond?

Sarah: Yeah.

Kelly: And it’s amazing? And, and, like, and, and logically I know this. Right, like, I know that not everything requires a response and that this is something that I shouldn’t pay attention to, but I think emotionally it took me longer to get there, where I didn’t feel guilty or feel like I should be doing something or, again, agonizing over, what will people think of me if I don’t do this? And I’m like, how much effort did they put into this? This is a tweet. [Laughs]

Sarah: Right?

Kelly: If they’re going to judge me based on this, they were going to judge me anyway. Like, it’s just not worth my time. Yeah.

Sarah: Maybe, maybe – okay, so this is a half-baked thought I just had – maybe every time you refuse to answer, you’re taking away one of their validation stamps.

Kelly: Oh, that would be perfect. I like that even better.

Sarah: Wouldn’t it be great?!

Kelly: Yeah. I’m like, I’ll park wherever I want. I don’t need you to tell me – [laughs].

Sarah: Yep! I’m removing your validation.

Kelly: I’m removing it right now, because I don’t need it. And so that’s been great for me, to just kind of take that approach to email, to be like, no, I’m not going to do it, and, and I mean, and it’s interesting, too: as an editor of a magazine, I get a lot of, I get a lot of email, right, some of it worthwhile, some of it not, and it used to be the case that I would really agonize, where I’d be like, oh, maybe I should respond to this random man who sent his poetry to my magazine that doesn’t print poetry, and now I’m like, I’m just going to put you in a file of interesting collections that I have, and –

Sarah: Yup.

Kelly: – and just move along, right? I can just, just move along in some sort of way. Because I was like, I don’t actually have to respond to that, because it’s so beyond the parameters of anything that’s happening here.

Sarah: If somebody sends you things that don’t fit, you don’t have to respond and tell them that it doesn’t fit, because they were supposed to have figured that out on their own.

Kelly: Yeah, that, that we maybe should go to the submissions page.

Sarah: We’ve already given you this information. Like, I don’t cover poetry.

Kelly: Right. So why poetry?

Sarah: Another thing that we talked about over email is re-adjusting your expectations about your own work. That your job is not an actual emergency, so you don’t need to work all the time and be on call, which was a hell of a realization for me when I had that –

Kelly: Yeah!

Sarah: – about myself.

Kelly: I think it’s so hard, especially when – so I work from home, right, and –

Sarah: Yep!

Kelly: – and so it makes it super tempting to just leave my kids in front of whatever terrible Netflix show they have now found and are subjecting on me –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Kelly: – and just creep in my office and write or creep in my office to edit something, because I’m like, oh, it’s just right there, right? And I can hear them, and the coffee’s nearby. And so I’ve had to work really hard to be like, I have hours, right. Like, I have hours of operation.

Sarah: Yep.

Kelly: Generally, there are not editing emergencies. [Laughs]

Sarah: No! I wrote a website about romance novels, and I really had to readjust myself: like, what is an actual emergency?

Kelly: Right.

Sarah: And I actually have said out loud, this is romance novels; this is not life and death.

Kelly: Right.

Sarah: No one is, there is no arterial blood spray involved in this.

Kelly: Exactly. They’re like, Kelly, we need a decision right now! Do we use the paddles or not? And I’m like, that’s never going to happen to me, right? Like, partially ‘cause as soon as someone asks that question I would just pass out. Right, like, I couldn’t handle the pressure of, of doing that sort of thing, which is why I’m a writer and not a medical doctor.

[Laughter]

Kelly: Like, there’s a reason for this! My daughter the other day was like, Mom, would you like to climb Mt. Everest, or would you like to read about climbing Mt. Everest? And I’m like, what do you think my answer is going to be? And she’s like, you would just read the book about it, and I’m like, you’re entirely right! That’s true. That’s a true statement.

Sarah: Yeah!

Kelly: I’m like, ‘cause that sounds terrible and terrifying and awful, and why would you do that to yourself? But it is, it is that kind of, again, it’s that, like, oh, I’m at home, and I can do this, and I can do this anytime, and so I set kind of working hours, and I also realized that with two small kids – [sighs] – things just go awry, right. Like –

Sarah: Oh yeah!

Kelly: – there is a way in which, you know, I had one sick, home sick last week for, like, one malady, and then one home sick this week for a malady, and it’s only Wednesday, and so it was just one of those things where I’m like, you know what? Editing an article can actually wait till this child feels better. Which has done, like, miracles for my sanity, because it used to be the case –

Sarah: Yep.

Kelly: – that they would be home sick, and I would be like, oh gosh, I’m behind, right? Like, I’m behind, and I’m never going to catch up! And I always catch up, right. Like, it’s a silly kind of sentiment to have. But to just kind of know that my schedule, that I’m in this very privileged position that my schedule is a lot more flexible than other people’s and that I should understand that and not be stressed about it, but also not let work –

Sarah: Yeah.

Kelly: – overtake that time then. Which, I mean, it took me a while to come around to that in a certain way –

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Kelly: – because I’m like, it’s so easy; it’s just right there! I can see the laptop! [Laughs]

Sarah: And, if you’re not doing something, you could be working!

Kelly: Yes, exactly. That’s exactly right. And, and that stuff –

Sarah: That’s not actually good for your creative brain.

Kelly: Yeah. No, I mean, and that’s, I mean, and I think that’s the hard piece for me, if I’m like –

Sarah: Yeah.

Kelly: – ‘cause I’m one of those, like – I’m working very hard to not be this person anymore, but to be like, if I’m not producing, right, like, then I’m not doing anything, and I’ve had to, like, constantly remind myself that part of doing writing is that you have to let your brain work through this stuff?

Sarah: Oh yeah. You’ve got, you’ve got to put it in the Crockpot in the brack –

Kelly: You do!

Sarah: – back of your brain.

Kelly: And then, you know, like, sometimes the next day you wake up and you’re like, oh! I figured this out! And then sometimes it’s like two weeks later, and then you’re like, oh! It took me this long!

Sarah: Got to let it percolate!

Kelly: Right? And so, and so that’s been interesting for me too, to just say, like, maybe I put unnecessary pressure on myself to do all of the things, and I could not? And, and that’s been amazing, to be like, oh! I’m the one pressuring myself to do PTO! Now, there are cultural pressures, right, about this, but I’m the one pressuring myself to do all this writing all the time. Oh! Like, maybe I could step back a little bit and reframe that, and, and so yeah, it’s, it’s been good, but it’s also been a lot of my, like, therapist being like, cut it out. [Laughs] And also her really thoughtfully kind of poking and prodding me to be like, why do you do this? And –

Sarah: Yeah.

Kelly: – you know, and, and to think really hard about, like, why are you doing it? Because it’s not good for you, so maybe you shouldn’t? And then I wanted to argue with her, which I think you’re not supposed to do with your therapist, where I’m like, no, I’m fine! I’m fine. Everything’s fine. And of course she then looked at me like the therapist glare, and I was like, okay, maybe you have a point; I’ll concede it a little bit, and –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Kelly: – maybe I’ll learn how to be a well-adjusted person, if you’re going to force my hand. Ugh!

Sarah: You actually wrote recently about how difficult it is to ask for help when you’re having a mental health crisis.

Kelly: Yeah.

Sarah: By the way, that art-, that article was really, really powerful.

Kelly: Oh, thank you!

Sarah: Well done! I know I, I have a sense of what it costs to write something like that, and it was really, really good.

Kelly: Yeah, it was rough. I mean, and I had this moment of, like, abject terror before it went live, where –

Sarah: Yeah.

Kelly: – I was like, my life is over, and my partner is like, I doubt it. Like, I doubt nine hundred words, you know, means that your life will be over, and I’m like, fine, fine. But just, well, I was like, oh, this is like a super-honest piece about, like, what bad shape I was in when I finally decided that I would call my doctor, and, and –

Sarah: Yeah.

Kelly: – that I had known that I was in bad shape for months, right, like, that I’d known that this was a problem, and that I just couldn’t make myself do it out of this concern that, like, maybe I could just power through, right, depression. [Laughs]

Sarah: Yeah! Look, see, my coping mechanisms are just as effective as they were before!

Kelly: Of course they are!

Sarah: I’m not any different!

Kelly: Right, like, yeah!

Sarah: I can, I should be able to handle this. I should be able to do this.

Kelly: Right.

Sarah: I should be able to do this on my own. Yep, yep, yep.

Kelly: And, and I was just like, I could just power through it, like I power through things all the time, right?

Sarah: And that’s the same language, that’s the same language that PTA uses!

Kelly: Yeah.

Sarah: I just realized! Like, all of these expecta- – you should be able to do this and the other things and this extra thing –

Kelly: Yeah.

Sarah: – and this other thing. You should be able to do this without breaking a sweat.

Kelly: Right. And, and that it should make you look like you’re doing it, so, again, that, like, effortlessly part of it, right, is that – and, and I can remember very vividly, there was a moment when I was in this deep depression, and I had a book out, and I was just like, I can’t even bring myself to promote it, right, ‘cause I’m convinced it’s terrible. It was not terrible. But –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Kelly: – convinced it was terrible, and I had all these people who were, like, contacting me, and they’re like, you have it all together! You have a new book out! Like, you know, you’re like a –

Sarah: I’m what?

Kelly: – like, you’re a shining example to us of, like, what we can do, and, like, it was just this weird thing, right, that happens when a new book’s out and you’re doing this kind of stuff, but it was all these people that just sort of assumed I was good, right, like, that because the public façade looked good, right, so I could, like –

Sarah: Yeah!

Kelly: – scroll through Twitter on my bed and, like, say cheerful things in a tweet, right, like, that somehow I was okay, and I can remember very vividly tweeting at one point, and I think this is the start of me really thinking through this and saying, like, I, I need to do something about this, is that I’m like, you know, those of us that seem like we have together often don’t. Right, like, just, just, you know –

Sarah: Yeah.

Kelly: – keep in mind that that’s something that’s happening, and – but I tweeted that, in, like – [laughs] – February, and then I didn’t go to my Doctor until May, right. That it took that long for me to be like, okay, I can do this, right.

Sarah: It’s one thing to tell Twitter; it’s another thing to actually pick up the phone –

Kelly: And then fight with my doctor’s nurse about whether it was actually an emergency or not, right.

Sarah: Oh, that – when I, when, when I read that –

Kelly: [Gasps] Oh.

Sarah: – I was like, I’ve been there, and I’m infuriated on your behalf.

Kelly: Oh, it was the, it was just the worst, right. Call and say, I need a mental health appointment, and they’re like, we can do that in six weeks. And I was like, no –

Sarah: No!

Kelly: – you can’t actually. Like, you can’t do this in six weeks, ‘cause I’m really worried about what will happen in six weeks. And so yeah –

Sarah: Yeah.

Kelly: – I mean, so I had to, I mean, it took like five phone calls before – it was the most gatekeeping.

Sarah: Ugh!

Kelly: Like, once I met with my doctor, she was like, oh shit. I mean, this is, she wouldn’t say that, ‘cause she’s remarkably cheerful and probably doesn’t use swear words, but you know, she was like, okay.

Sarah: Right.

Kelly: Like, this is, this is serious, and we’re going to take it very seriously, and this is our plan, right. I mean, she was just –

Sarah: Right.

Kelly: – amazing! It was the kind of gatekeeping and the way that the nurse just didn’t take mental health seriously.

Sarah: Did you tell the doctor about that experience?

Kelly: No, I did, actually. I was like, you know, it took a while. Yeah, and she’s like, you know, that shouldn’t’ve happened, but I mean, she was pretty clear about, like, this is not, this is not acceptable, and she got major bonus points from me for being able to do that. But then I had to find a psychiatrist, which is the worst! So I spent, no like, two weeks calling, like, every other day until I finally got someone on the phone, and then luckily they had a cancellation. And then they told me that I needed a therapist, but all their therapists were way overbooked, so good luck.

Sarah: Ugh!

Kelly: And luckily for me, I found a wonderful therapist who specializes in, specialized working with women. She particularly specializes in working with women that have been through abuse, women who deal with narcissists. She’s really good at talking about trauma and doing this sort of stuff, and she’s also just kind of genuinely a badass, right. Like, that, she’s just –

Sarah: Yep.

Kelly: – just kind of amazing, and so it worked out to get there, and she was the only one that I called and then I had a call back two hours later, where –

Sarah: Wow.

Kelly: – she was like, you sound like you need help. Here’s what I have. Can you come in? And I mean, and just immediately. But it was just remarkably terrible –

Sarah: Wow.

Kelly: – ‘cause I’m like, I can’t even get out of bed, right? Like, I can barely get out of bed –

Sarah: Yep.

Kelly: – and then I’m cheerful for my kids, and then I manage –

Sarah: Yep.

Kelly: – to get work done, but I’m pretty much, like, sitting on the bed and my couch, and I’d stopped going to lunch with friends, I had stopped texting, right, I had just kind of stopped reaching out, and I was like, and then it’s difficult? Like, that’s even worse in some sort of way, that, that you made it impossible for me to get help that I needed, right.

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Kelly: And luckily I have insurance! [Laughs] Right? Like, the other piece of it is I can actually, I have insurance that will cover this in some sort of way.

Sarah: Being in a position where you need help that is an incredibly intimate process –

Kelly: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – that is incredibly important connection, like, you have to be able to connect with the person that you’re going to do this work with, ‘cause this is hard.

Kelly: Yep.

Sarah: And then feeling like you don’t really have a choice, based on what’s available, what’s nearby, and what’s covered.

Kelly: Right. Yeah, and then it, and it was just, I mean, it was one of the days where I was lucky that she covered my insurance, right, and now we have new insurance and it’s not covered, but she has a non-insurance fee, right, because she’s a decent human being.

Sarah: Yep.

Kelly: But it’s still not cheap, right? And, you know, I’ve been working with her since May, so we’ve been doing this a year, and I finally graduated to going every two weeks from every one week, so I’m very proud of that.

Sarah: Way to go!

Kelly: Yeah! No, I was like, I was like, yeah! I’m getting an A in therapy! And she’s like, Kelly. And I’m like, I know, I know; we don’t always need As. It’s good. Like, I’m working on it. [Laughs] ‘Cause she, I mean, at this point she kind of knows, right, that this is who she’s dealing with, and, yeah, overachievers. We’re lots of fun.

[Laughter]

Kelly: But it is what it is. And it took that long, right, for me to get out of this place that was really bad, and, you know, it took a while for the medicine I was on to work. That was so hard! It’s so frustrating. And then I fired my psychiatrist after he told me that maybe I didn’t need to increase the dosage of my medicine; maybe it was just my period over the last two weeks?

Sarah: What?!

Kelly: Yeah. Oh, it was bad.

Sarah: What the – get the hell out of here!

Kelly: Yes! Then I was like, well, we’re done here. Right? Like, I’m done with you forever, and it’s good.

Sarah: Do you think that, do you think that setting boundaries professionally and personally helped you recognize, yeah, no, I’m out of here?

Kelly: Yeah, it did. I mean, it was one of those where he said that, and I was like, oh, you’re fired. I mean, I didn’t say it to him, right, ‘cause I needed the prescription, but then I instantly was like, well, your office is done, and I called my primary care doctor, and I was like, I want you to take over, because we’ve sort of figured this out, and she’s like, no problem! Right, and she’s a delightful woman, who would not have said that to me. [Laughs]

Sarah: Isn’t it amazing, that feeling of, oh, yeah, we’re done here.

Kelly: Oh no, yeah, and, and I’ve discovered that I’m – as you can maybe imagine, Sarah – I’ve gotten much better at the, like, oh no, we’re done. Like, I feel like that has been the strong suit since January, where I’m like, oh, I’m not doing any of this nonsense. Like, I’m just going to –

Sarah: Yeah.

Kelly: – walk right out of that room, and I’m good.

Sarah: I know a lot of people online, especially bloggers and people who have a lot of online presence, talk about picking a word for the year –

Kelly: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – and picking a, a, like a, a guiding concept for their year at the beginning of the year, and I always thought this was kind of hokey, and then I realized that last year I was routinely writing down variations of the, of the word “opt out,” which is actually two words. I opt out. I am opting out of this; I am opting out of that drama; I am opting out of this obligation. I am opting out.

Kelly: Yeah, I think in January I was like, my word for the year is “boundaries,” right? Like, we should just be really upfront about this.

Sarah: What advice would you have for someone who will be listening and might want to set firmer boundaries for themselves? Like, if you could look back and give yourself from a year or two ago advice, what would you say?

Kelly: So the, Shonda Rhimes in her Year of Yes has this great sentence where she says, where she’s like, you have to learn how to say yes to no. So that, one of the things that she talks about is that you have to get really good at saying no and meaning it, because you, ‘cause you kind of have a sense of what your values are, right, and what matters to you in some sort of way. And I wish I had kind of reckoned with that earlier on, right, that I can actually say no. [Laughs] And it’s not necessarily a negative thing; it’s just –

Sarah: Yeah.

Kelly: – me saying, this is not particularly what I care about right now, and that’s fine, right, like, that’s enough, and, and to be okay with that. The other thing I liked is, I read The Life-Changing Magic of Not Giving a Fuck, which was beautiful, and –

Sarah: Yeah.

Kelly: – one of the things that she talks about in particular is that, like, the number of fucks that we have are limited, so we have to be really clear on –

Sarah: Yeah!

Kelly: – which ones we care about and what we can kind of let go of, and I was like, yeah! Yeah, let’s do this, right. Like, what am I not going to care about, and what do I care about deeply and should be sort of a priority to me? And so that book really helped me think through, like, yeah! There are things that I really do care about that I’m not spending time on because I’m getting sucked into all this other stuff I don’t care about, right? So maybe I should do the stuff I care about?

Sarah: Yep.

Kelly: [Laughs] And, and let go of the resentment after I’ve done, you know, these things that I don’t, and I think that was, that was very helpful too. So those two pieces, I think, are just so useful, just to start, right, to have a list of the things that you give a fuck about, right. Like a ten-point list, right, like, what matters here? And then just kind of start to shed off some of the other stuff. And, and it’s really helpful to me, ‘cause I find myself doing it even now, where I’m like, am I going to give a fuck about that? And I’m like, maybe I won’t.

Sarah: And, and that energy is a finite resource.

Kelly: Exactly. Exactly.

Sarah: Yeah. So what books have you read, other than The Life-Changing Magic of Not Giving a Fuck and the Year of Yes that you would want to tell people about?

Kelly: So I love, and it’s not a traditional self-help book, but Tiny Beautiful Things by Cheryl Strayed is one of my favorites, and this is where she was an advice column for The Rumpus –

Sarah: Yep.

Kelly: – called “Dear Sugar,” and she wrote these, like, remarkable essays and answered these questions, but when I was first starting to think about, like, how to prioritize and how to do things and how to really think about the kind of life that I wanted to live –

Sarah: Right.

Kelly: – right, and the kind of person that I wanted to be, I felt like that book was super helpful in helping me, like, grapple with all the, like, hard shit that we just deal with, right? Like, it’s just, it’s hard to human, right, and there are lots of things that are beyond our control and lots of things that happen to us, and I found that book to be just kind of magical in a certain way as I was moving through it, and so I thought that was really good.

I got on a Marie Kondo kick, and I can’t recommend that to people, but now I feel like I can have control over my environment in a really dangerous way, so I might have to hide that book.

[Laughter]

Kelly: Where I’m like, everyone should fold like this! And my family is like, what now? So, so –

[Laughter]

Kelly: – so that. And, and so those are the few that I would kind of pay attention to. I’ve done some of the Brené Brown, you know, some of her collection, which sometimes speak to me and sometimes don’t, but I do like her emphasis on – as you can tell in that essay that I wrote about depression and mental illness and getting help that – there’s something about the importance of vulnerability –

Sarah: Yeah.

Kelly: – and being able to be vulnerable with other human beings that I find to be really life-changing, and as someone who liked to fake having it together –

Sarah: Yeah.

Kelly: – for a really long time, the ability to now be like, yeah, I’m in therapy, right, and then I talk to people when I go places. Now I’m not just doing this to random strangers, right.

Sarah: Right.

Kelly: Like, I’m not on a street corner shouting, therapy! In some sort of way –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Kelly: – but, you know, I talked to friends of mine, and then I realized, like, that we were holding these shields up, right –

Sarah: Uh-huh.

Kelly: – where, because I acted like I had it together, they had to feel like they had to act, have it together, and now we’re having these, like, remarkably meaningful conversations where they can be vulnerable, and I can be vulnerable, and it makes for better friendships and more authentic ones, and so I think that’s one of the coolest things about this for me too, is that I’ve been like, oh! I don’t always have to seem like I know what I’m doing. You know, sometimes people appreciate to know that I’m a hot mess.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Kelly: Just like we are, right? Like, that we can, that we can do this kind of messiness together and then help each other sort out, too, what’s happening, and, and I think that’s kind of a super power almost, which is really cool.

[music]

Sarah: And that brings us to the end of our episode. I want to thank Kelly Baker for hanging out with me and for all of the email messages that she and I have exchanged, trading books and advice and quotes that we’ve discovered. I will have links to her website, kellyjbaker.com, and to her Twitter handle, and of course I will have links to her books, including her latest book, Final Girl: And Other Essays on Grief, Trauma, and Mental Illness. I will also, of course, link to some of the books that she mentioned and some of the websites we talked about as well. You know I’m going to link everything, right? Of course.

This episode was brought to you today by The Second Chance Rancher by Kate Pearce. Spinning off her popular Morgan Ranch series, New York Times bestselling author Kate Pearce introduces the Millers of Morgantown. It might be the pride of hard work on rugged terrain, the welcoming community, or the memories, but wherever the folks of Morgantown may roam, they have a way of coming back to the ranch. When Jackson Lymond returns from serving in the Air Force, the last thing he expects is to strike up a friendship with Daisy Miller, the girl he always noticed in high school, even though she thought she was invisible. Could they ever have another shot at lasso love? The Second Chance Rancher by Kate Pearce is available now wherever books are sold and at kensingtonbooks.com.

The transcript for this episode is being brought to you by the Patreon community. Thank you to everyone who has pledged and made a monthly commitment to support the show. It helps me transcribe every episode so that every one is accessible. If you’d like to have a look and join our community, we have pledge goals, we have patron goals, and we have different pledge levels. One dollar a month, every dollar is deeply appreciated. Have a look at patreon.com/SmartBitches.

The music you are listening to is provided by Sassy Outwater. This is called “Rivertown.” The artist is Michelle Sell from her album Secret Harbor. Now, according to Sassy, Michelle Sell is a San Francisco-based harpist who has not released new music recently, but has beautiful older music. Sassy says that this is one of her favorite songs to write to. “When I need to write a moment where the character does some serious alone time self-analysis, this song tops my playlist.” You can find her music on iTunes, and if you’re in California and you dream of a harp at your wedding, Michelle takes bookings. You can find out more on the website in the show notes at smartbitchestrashybooks.com/podcast.

Speaking of the website, there totally is one. Coming up this week, it is the start of a new month, so we are going to talk about Hiding Your Wallet, because we’re going to talk about all the books we want to buy and we all want to get our hands on as soon as possible, and there’s so many, holy smokes. We also have a new review of some highly anticipated books, including a certain Pride and Prejudice adaptation. We have Cover Awe, a Bachelorette recap, Books on Sale, and Help a Bitch Out. Thank you for hanging out with us and for being part of our community.

And now it’s time for a terrible joke. I know you love these terrible jokes. I love this one. This is, this is, this is so bad. I love it.

Why is Peter Pan always flying?

Give up? Why is Peter Man – Peter, Peter Man – heh-heh – Peter Pan – why is Peter Pan always flying?

‘Cause he Neverlands.

[Laughs] So dumb! I love the ones that are, like, really obvious once you say it out loud, and you’re just kind of like, ohhh yeah. Thank you to annethebomb on Reddit for that terrible dad joke.

As always, everything we talked about will be in the show notes, and if you ever have questions, suggestions, or ideas, you can always email me at sbjpodcast@gmail.com.

On behalf of everyone who is in my room, all of the cats who are snoring, and I’ve had to adjust the microphone accordingly, and, of course, Kelly J. Baker, we wish you the very best of reading. Have a wonderful, wonderful weekend. We’ll see you back here next week.

[music fades out]