338. “We’re All Unlikeable Heroines Now:” An Interview with Rachel Hawkins

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Sarah Wendell: Hello there! Happy Valentine’s week. I am sitting here trying to convince myself not to eat corn chips for lunch, so I think it’s a much better option for me to record a podcast intro. Let’s do this! Welcome to episode number 338 of Smart Podcast, Trashy Books. I’m Sarah Wendell, here with corn chips, from Smart Bitches, Trashy Books. Today I am talking with author Rachel Hawkins. Now, you might now Rachel Hawkins’s name from the Hex Hall series or the Rebel Belle series or the Royals series, or maybe you saw her recent announcement and squeed as loud as Elyse and Carrie did when she announced that her next project would be rewriting Jane Eyre as a Southern Gothic feminist rage story. Either way, she and I have a lot to talk about. We discuss inventing boarding schools and populating them with random dudes in the background, peacing out after a bad breakup all the way across an ocean, and how she handles having so many ideas for books. We also talk about her Twitter threads of Sexy History, what’s coming next, and how she develops them. Plus, of course, we talk about what she’s reading and what she’s recommending.

This week’s podcast is brought to you by a podcast. This is so cool; I love this! Happy Galentine’s week from today’s sponsor, Heaving Bosoms: A Romance Novel Podcast. [Whispers] It’s so good, you guys! [Normal voice] Each week, two long-distance best friends, Erin and Melody, do deep-dive recaps of a different romance novel. If you love fangirling about your latest read with your best girlfriends, you will love listening to Erin and Melody break down their favorite – and occasionally not-so-favorite – romance novels. Each episode comes with a heaping dose of unconditional friendship, sex and pleasure positivity, openhearted feminism, and hilarious tangents. From Tessa Dare to Sally Thorne to Chuck Tingle, Erin and Mel are tackling every kind of smooching book they can find, and they are always taking suggestions. They recommend starting with two favorite episodes: “Episode 41 – The Kiss Quotient by Helen Hoang” or “Episode 39 – Mastered by Her Mates by Grace Goodwin.” Just don’t listen around the kids, because, like your favorite books, these two can get a little explicit. You can find Heaving Bosoms on their website, on Apple Podcasts, on Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts. They are the perfect Galentine’s week treat.

Every episode of this podcast receives a transcript, which is hand-compiled by garlicknitter, who is waiting for me to not eat corn chips and finish this episode – [laughs] – so today’s podcast transcript – thank you, garlicknitter! – is sponsored by Summoned to Thirteenth Grave by Darynda Jones. If you like J. R. Ward or Jeaniene Frost, you’ll love this paranormal romp that tickles not only the funny bone but other parts a little farther down as well. Charley Davidson, Grim Reaper extraordinaire, is back after a century of exile. She is hurt, she is angry, and she is out for revenge. But a century on one plane isn’t quite the same as it is on others, and she comes back to find a furious husband who can still melt the polar ice caps with a single glance, a world in chaos, and an expanding hell dimension that is taking over our own plane of existence. She has three days to stop an apocalypse that she may have accidentally started and to soothe the savage beast that is her blisteringly hot soul mate. Don’t miss the last book in the series that RT Book Reviews calls wickedly funny with true chilling danger. Summoned to Thirteenth Grave by Darynda Jones is on sale now wherever books are sold. Find out more at daryndajones.com.

This is the third take of me trying to do this segment, because I really want corn chips, you guys. I just, I really want to have some. I can’t explain it; all I can think about right now is corn chips. But if you have supported the show with a monthly pledge of any amount, thank you very, very much. You are helping me ensure that every episode receives a transcript and that I don’t annoy the dickens out of you by eating corn chips into a microphone – gosh, that would be awful. You are helping me keep the show going each month, each week, and each day that I do recording, so thank you. You are also part of a community that is making every episode accessible to everyone, and I know many people read the transcripts rather than listen, or do both at the same time. If you would like to join the Patreon community, it would be most excellent if you did. If you go to patreon.com/SmartBitches, monthly pledges start at a dollar a month, and you will be part of the group who helps me develop questions and helps me pick which book to read for our quarterly podcast book club, and we will be announcing our first title soon, because the Patreon community suggestions were completely awesome. You can join us at patreon.com/SmartBitches, and I hope that you do.

Now, I also have a compliment this week. It has nothing to do with corn chips.

To Kate O.: Sometimes the way you tilt your head when you laugh makes everything 205% more funny, mostly because you make the people around you feel so happy and amused, and also because you’re hilarious.

If you would like a compliment of your very own, have a look at patreon.com/SmartBitches. A handcrafted, heartfelt compliment from yours truly is one of the reward tiers, and there are other things as well. So if you’ve had a look, thank you! And thank you to Kate O. for being part of the Patreon community.

I will have information after the show about what is coming up on Smart Bitches this coming week – we have some cool stuff happening. I will have information about the music that you are listening to. I will have links in the show notes at smartbitchestrashybooks.com/podcast to all of the things that we talk about – there are many – and of course all of the books that we mention – again, there are many. We are really expensive people to listen to, I know. And of course I will have an absolutely horrific joke at the end.

But I will not delay any longer; it is now time to talk with Rachel Hawkins. One of my favorite things that she says in this episode is that we’re all unlikeable heroines now, and I really love that statement a lot. All right, let’s do this thing: on with the podcast.

[music]

Rachel Hawkins: Wait. Hi, I’m Rachel Hawkins. I am the author of several Young Adult series, including the Hex Hall series, the Rebel Belle series, and the new Royals series, and I’m also the author of an upcoming adult suspense book called The Wife Upstairs.

Sarah: Yeah, I’ve got questions about all of those things.

Rachel: [Laughs] Yeah, I, luckily, I’ve got answers!

Sarah: Dude! This is great. Okay. So could you please – this is the worst question to ask an author, and I always feel so guilty, but, like, this is part of, I guess, this is part of the author job.

Rachel: We’ve got to, we’ve got to have it, yeah, yeah.

Sarah: Right. Can you tell me, please, about your upcoming book, the sequel to Royals, because when I saw the announcement, it was like a massive celebration of readers online responding to you going, oh my gosh, I’m so excited!

Rachel: [Laughs] I know. I saw, like, one tweet to me that was like, that’s right, it’s over for you hetero bitches, and I’m like, oh, this makes me really happy!

[Laughter]

Rachel: That’s exactly the reaction I want for my gay princess romance. Yeah, so the sequel to Royals, which now Royals is re-titled Prince Charming when it comes out in paperback to better fit with the sequel, which is called Her Royal Highness. We just really, really wanted to use that title? Like, it, it was the perfect title for, to us, for a book about, you know, a gay princess and girls falling in love. Like, it just sounded right?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Rachel: But Royals didn’t fit as well with it, so we were like, let’s just reverse engineer this.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Rachel: So yeah, Her Royal Highness is the sequel to Prince Charming, and it follows Princess Flora, who we meet in the first book, but sort of a minor character, and the American girl that she ends up with rooming with at a very remote boarding school in Scotland. If you’ve seen the second season of the Netflix show The Crown –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Rachel: – they sent Prince Charles off to that horrible Scottish boarding school where he hates everything? Totally based on that place. I think it’s Gordonstoun in real life, and I just called it Gregorstoun ‘cause that’s how original I am.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Rachel: So I was like, oh, let’s not, you know, let’s not reinvent the wheel here. So yeah, and it’s, it’s the first, you know, same-sex romance that I’ve written as, like, a main story, and I was very excited to do that, ‘cause I just thought, like, we have so many stories about, like, oops, I fell in love with a prince! I had no idea! And I just was kind of like, you know, I’d, I’d like to see girls who like girls also get that particular trope, and that was just, that was really fun to work with.

Sarah: It seems like you had a lot of fun.

Rachel: It really was. It was, like, one of the most fun books that I think I’ve ever gotten to write, although, hilariously, when I turned in the first draft, or it was actually, it was like through a couple of edits, my editor was like, oh my God, you know, we forgot to at any point in this book mention that it’s an all-girls school, but there’s this one boy going to the school, ‘cause there’s, like, this one male character that they interact with a lot, and I realized, I was like, oh no, it’s totally a co-ed school; I just forgot about boys.

[Laughter]

Rachel: Like, this was just a very girly book, and I was like, so I literally invented, like, one boy in all of the universe, and so I had to go back and be like, oh, no, no, there, there are more penises at this school. I just didn’t feel like talking about them. So that was, that was a really funny thing, and everybody was like, oh! Okay, well, that’s fine then. We’ll just be sure that it’s really clear that it’s co-ed, so yeah.

Sarah: [Laughs] Fine –

Rachel: That’s why I wasn’t –

Sarah: – I’ll add in some peens.

Rachel: [Laughs] Exactly! I was like, fine, fine, here’s a random background peen.

[Laughter]

Sarah: I’m now imagining some outstanding gargoyles on the outside of this building now.

Rachel: Exactly, exactly. [Laughs]

Sarah: Oh my go- – [laughs].

Rachel: So yeah, but that’s, I think, why it was so fun to write. I was especially, you know, over the past year or so, ‘cause yeah, I was writing this in early 2018, so it was, it was just nice to have, like, at least my fictional world that I spent all my day in, it was just, like, a very girly place, and that’s where I wanted to exist for a few months.

Sarah: That must be one of the best parts of the way, in the worlds that you write, you, you write a whole world with a whole bunch of stuff going on with some very familiar tropes, and then you like to up end them.

Rachel: Right.

Sarah: It must be really fun to hang out there.

Rachel: It is! It’s really nice. You know, the past two books have both been set in Scotland. My family and I really, really love Scotland. We go there just about every year. I find it really inspiring for writing purposes; my husband’s a geologist, so, geology was basically invented in Scotland, so it’s very cool for him. My kid’s just happy to go anywhere.

Sarah: Right.

Rachel: And so it’s really nice to get to spend time back there, even when I’m not there, if that makes sense. I feel like –

Sarah: Totally!

Rachel: – I spend multiple hours of my day back in Scotland, which is just a very cool thing. It’s definitely, to me, yeah, it’s the best part of being a writer is that you do, you sort of live in two worlds all the time, as kind of cliché as that sounds.

Sarah: No, it’s nice! It’s a nice constructed imagination that you get to go hang out in for a little while? It’s –

Rachel: Exactly!

Sarah: – very fun. I mean, that’s why I read.

Rachel: Right! [Laughs] Yeah, same, so that’s –

Sarah: When –

Rachel: – like, escapism on two levels, which is nice.

Sarah: Right, and when you’re cool enough to share your imagined world with readers, then, you know, we all win. Yay!

Rachel: Right, exactly!

Sarah: So what are some of the things that you love about traveling to Scotland? Is it sort of a sense of – am I remembering correctly that you have Scottish ancestry, or am I totally wrong?

Rachel: Yeah. No, no, we do, or I do, and my husband has a little bit. I mean, we’re, like, those, like, extremely boring white people that our families have been here for, you know, hundreds of years, so we don’t have, like, that kind of connection to it exactly, but at the same time I’m like, there must be some sort of, like, DNA memory, because we do, we just love it so much. It’s an interesting mix, to me, of familiar and relaxing while still feeling different enough. Also, like, you know, I’m from Alabama. It’s hot as Satan’s armpit here all the time, basically –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Rachel: – and so, and we’re all, like, very, like, fair-skinned ginger people, so, like, we can’t go to the beach, we’ll die, so, like, cold, cloudy climates are really good for us so we can actually do, like, adventuresome, outdoorsy things that we couldn’t necessarily do, like, in Florida, and that’s really nice? So I think that’s part of it. Also, like, the, the history is so cool to me, and this is, like, supremely dorky, but it’s very on-brand for a book podcast: I really love book shopping over there, because, you know, English language books, obviously, but different ones, and, like, their history section is so cool to me, because obviously, like, I don’t want to buy another book about George Washington, which seems to be all our history sections have bookstores here, whereas there, obviously, like, the British history is going to be taking up the majority of that section, and that’s so neat to me, so I, I love to go book shopping there. I love to sort of see what’s selling over there that’s not – like, how horror seems to do so much better over there. Like, they have big horror sections where I don’t feel like it’s as strong here.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Rachel: Different covers, all that kind of stuff. So yeah, I’m, I’m a big book shopper while I’m over there, and yeah, it’s just, it’s fun, you know, and, and I, it’s easy to get around, which is also nice. So it’s like it’s the perfect sort of combination of, like I said, exotic and different, but also familiar, and it’s good for lazy people, which I clearly am when I travel.

[Laughter]

Rachel: I’m like, oh yeah, I can speak English; I’ll be okay. I have no ear –

Sarah: Yeah.

Rachel: – for languages whatsoever. I took, like, six years of French between high school and college, and I can speak none of it, so. So yeah, that’s helpful.

Sarah: [Laughs] So your books got new covers, and Royals got a new title. What was that process like, and how did your readers react? I was trying to think if I can recall another sort of – I wouldn’t call, I wouldn’t call it a major shift, but it’s something of a pivot.

Rachel: Yeah, it’s definitely like a rebrand, yeah, which –

Sarah: Yeah, yeah, yeah! What was that process like?

Rachel: Really great, actually. One of the things that I really love about working with Penguin, Penguin is so good at, like, thinking outside the box and, and sort of saying, like, is this working the best that it absolutely could?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Rachel: When it came time to do the cover and the title for Her Royal Highness, again, a lot of what we did with sort of rebranding Royals into Prince Charming with the new covers was in service of Her Royal Highness, because the original cover of Royals is great, I love it, I think it’s a really pretty color, everything about it is good, but it’s not all that personal, and with Her Royal Highness, we definitely wanted to get across, like, this is a book about girls! These are girls in love! We want that representation on the cover, and the best way to do that it seemed like was just sort of retrofit that look to the original Royals book so that we have a new title and a new cover. One of the things that I was really surprised about, people were really nice about it, ‘cause I don’t know if you know this, Sarah, but sometimes people on the internet have opinions –

Sarah: What?!

Rachel: – and – I know; it’s crazy? – and one of the opinions they sometimes really have is don’t re-jacket books – like, I like things to match – and I totally get that.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Rachel: But in this case, I really didn’t get any pushback on that, and I think it’s because, again, Penguin did a great job with, like, that Her Royal Highness cover is so strong to me that we did that one sort of first, and everybody was very excited about that, so then when, like, later that same day we were like, oh, and by the way –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Rachel: – new cover and title for the first book, everybody was already, like, in a good mood, you know, so it was like, that was kind of, it was like a spoonful of sugar sort of situation. So, yeah, everybody was really, really cool about it, and I was really happy with it. I think that the new cover, I love seeing Miles and Daisy on the new cover of Prince Charming, and I think it definitely gets across, like, this is a rom-com a little bit better? I liked that it looked like some of the adult rom-com titles that are out right now, ‘cause I’m a big fan of all those books.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Rachel: But yeah, I thought it was, I thought it was really, really smart, and I’ve been really happy with it, and been very relieved that no one was mad at me over something that was kind of out of my control.

Sarah: Right. When you, when you got the new cover for both Royals and – well, not Royals –

Rachel: Yeah –

Sarah: – Her – wait.

Rachel: Prince Charming, Prince Charming and Her Royal Highness. Like, now they sort of –

Sarah: Prince Charming and Her Royal Highness, when you got the new covers, were you like, oh my gosh? Like, did your heart just, like, explode?

Rachel: Yeah, I was so, so thrilled with them. I was especially thrilled with Her Royal Highness because I just, I thought it was so cute, like, and, like, they did such a good job of capturing the main character, Millie, what I imagined her looking like. I had sent pictures of, like, actresses that I liked and, like, sort of the face that I sort of wanted, which if you look at the book – so, like, we’re big Doctor Who fans at my house, and I was really picturing, like, a younger Jenna Coleman, who now is, like, Victoria on Victoria –

[Laughter]

Rachel: – and – the titular role – and, like, they did such a good job of, like, sort of capturing that general face shape? So, yeah, I was absolutely delighted with it, and I just, like, Flora blowing the kisses and her glasses, like, it’s so cute. And so I thought then too, the Prince Charming cover did such a good job of Miles and Daisy are so spiky and weird with each other, and that comes across on the cover in a really great way. So yeah, I was absolutely – and I’d never had covers that really looked like these before. I’d never had illustrated covers, except for my middle-grade stuff.

Sarah: Yeah.

Rachel: So that was really, really neat to me. Yeah, I’m, I’m completely delighted with them.

Sarah: They are adorable. I also love that the picture for Her Royal Highness, she’s looking at the reader.

Rachel: Right, exactly! Ex-, and I think that that’s like, you know, Millie, to me, was such an interesting character to write, because Daisy in Prince Charming is so sassy and so kind of like over it, and Millie is much more, like, interior –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Rachel: – and so I kind of love that, that, like, the reader can kind of connect with her immediately now. Like, she’s on the cover looking at you, like you want to see what she’s all about, so I thought that was such a smart choice.

Sarah: It reminds me a little bit of the Velazquez painting Las Meninas –

Rachel: Oh yeah!

Sarah: – which, which is, the way that it’s set up, you can read it as Velazquez is painting you, and you are one of the royal couple, because the reflection is across the room in the painting –

Rachel: Right.

Sarah: – ‘cause they’re having their portrait painted, and you sort of step into the role of what’s happening in that painting?

Rachel: Yeah.

Sarah: When you look at Her Royal Highness, you are potentially the person who’s blowing kisses at Millie –

Rachel: Yeah!

Sarah: – because you’re reflected in her glasses, so you are already present in the story.

Rachel: Right, that’s such a good point. Yeah, I think that that’s such a – again, it was so smart; like, everything that they came up with, like just the general concept, I think is, yeah, it’s smart. I’m going to say smart a lot, because that’s, like, my go-to word for Penguin. That’s, that’s what they do; that’s what they’re so good at.

Sarah: I get it; no worries. It’s a word that works.

Rachel: Yeah, exactly!

Sarah: I also love that Millie is, I love that Millie is like, you know what? Peace out across the ocean; I’m out of here. ‘Cause I have done that, and it is so liberating to be like, fuck this; I am out.

Rachel: Exactly. Like, nope, nope, I – and, like, we’ve all had breakups too that make us be like, I can never see this person again. [Laughs] Like –

Sarah: Yeah.

Rachel: – I, I remember when I sort of split up with the guy that I was seeing in college, like, telling my friend that I was like, I feel so bad, ‘cause it’s like I just sort of need him to not exist anymore. Like, I don’t want him to die –

Sarah: Yeah!

Rachel: – obviously, but I just, I need him, like, zapped out of existence, into the ether, where I will never ever have to see him again. And so I think that that’s kind of how Millie feels, that, so she’s like, yeah, no. I’m just, I’m going to school in Scotland and there, problem solved! [Laughs] So I’ll put an ocean between me and this thing I’m feeling, which, yeah, relatable. Relatable, for sure.

Sarah: It’s something I think that everyone, like you said, everyone goes through this. You know, I just need you to not be part of my world at all, and –

Rachel: At all, yeah!

Sarah: – if that’s not possible, I’m going to exit.

Rachel: I can’t keep seeing you at Starbucks. Like, it’s too much.

Sarah: Yeah. I need a total reboot at this time.

Rachel: Right.

Sarah: Complete reboot. I’m out.

Rachel: Right, exactly. And travel is good for that, you know? That’s, I’ve always –

Sarah: Oh, it’s wonderful!

Rachel: – like, thought that that’s, like, that’s always my instinct is, like, what if I just ran away from this? How about – it’s very mature, obviously, but, like, that’s the fun thing in books. Like, your teenage character really can just run away from things. [Laughs]

Sarah: Yep!

Rachel: I have, like, you know, a kid and taxes and responsibilities and stuff, so I can’t do that, but I can let other people do it for me.

Sarah: And it also, it also reflects what you said earlier about Scotland, that there’s this old and this new? When you peace out and run away, you are completely reinventing everything. You’re going to redo your autopilot; you’re going to redo your surroundings; you’re going to have to figure out the very basics of what do you do every morning when you get up and go to where you go and find your coffee or find your food? Like, everything is new, but you’re still the same person, and you bring your baggage with you, and eventually it catches up.

Rachel: Exactly, which is a fun thing to sort of play with, and that’s –

Sarah: Yes!

Rachel: – that’s – and it’s present, I think, in both Her Royal Highness and in Prince Charming – one of the, like, super literature geeky Easter eggs of these books is that there are tons of characters, Millie and Daisy included, who are all named after Henry James characters –

Sarah: Right.

Rachel: – because I studied a lot of Henry James when I was in college, and I liked that sort of, it’s all, like, a lot of his stuff is about, like, American women who end up in England and, oh wow, everything is bullshit. Like – and of course usually they get influenza and die or whatever. In this case, I decided to go a little more cheerful. So, so –

Sarah: [Laughs] We all appreciate that!

Rachel: Nobody wants, like, what if you did, like, a Henry James retelling for YA? Like, nobody wants that. But so yeah, that’s, that’s kind of what I was going for there, though, is this idea of these, like, modern girls, and of course, like, Scotland is still very modern in lots of ways, but they, they are being sort of thrown into a culture that they don’t know anything about, and it’s a little bit sink or swim. Like, there’s –

Sarah: Yep.

Rachel: – all these sort of hidden rules and rituals and, and stuff that does seem like complete nonsense, you know, especially to, like, modern people. They’re like, it’s dumb that you have to walk three steps behind someone or whatever. And I think too, like, there’s something very American about that, like, no, I, I can’t possibly do that. And so that’s very fun to play with. So, yeah, that’s, that’s definitely there in the books, this idea of, like, this is a very foreign situation in which to be, and how do you start navigating that while still trying to be yourself?

Sarah: One of my favorite things about traveling as an American is when I go anywhere, most of the time I am in a place that is much, much older than America –

Rachel: Yeah.

Sarah: – and I get this sort of global sense of what a toddler we are culturally?

Rachel: Oh yeah, completely.

Sarah: Like, oh, is that old for you? That’s adorable.

Rachel: Yeah!

Sarah: That’s not old. [Laughs]

Rachel: Yeah, exactly. That, we were in Rome a couple of years ago, and, like –

Sarah: Oh, yeah, shit, real old there.

Rachel: We were just like, holy shit, so old! This is so old, and that’s, like, really old, and, yeah, my son didn’t quite, like, get it? Like, so we kept being like, no, seriously, like, thousands of years, and he was like –

Sarah: Yeah.

Rachel: – yeah, whatever; I’m going to go back to playing on my phone.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Rachel: So yeah, that’s, I think that there’s definitely that, that sort of like New World/Old World –

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Rachel: – thing. And you know, and the class system is still, like, alive and well. I mean, it’s alive and well everywhere, but, like, especially with, you know, I read a lot of Tatler magazine when I was researching these books, and Tatler is completely insane.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Rachel: I mean, like, everyone should subscribe to it for a year just to really – ‘cause I kept reading it and being like, are, are they fucking with me? Like, is, is this for real? Like, when you’re like, elephant polo, I’m like, seriously? Or is this, like, an elaborate joke that you guys are playing on posh people of Europe? But I’m pretty sure that it’s relatively sincere. I mean, there’s, like, articles that’s like, the best, you know, fanciest preschools to go ahead and enroll your unfertilized egg in. You know, you’ve got to get on it now, ladies.

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Rachel: So yeah, that’s such a bizarre thing, and yeah, again, all this sense of, like, tradition and ritual that is nonsensical, but also, like, very much still present, whether we like it or not.

Sarah: Oh yeah. My favorite thing about Tatler is that their tagline is “The original social media.”

Rachel: [Laughs] That’s beautiful. That’s, that’s just –

Sarah: [Laughs] I’m like, yeah! Yeah, ‘cause a lot of social media does thrive on that unspoken language!

Rachel: It does! It does. I always love looking in the back, where it’s just, like, random parties in some random place with random people that you’re supposed to know, like, and here’s Lady Sylvia Mountbatten, and you’re like, I have no idea who that is. Like, I follow this as well as I can. No clue. But Tatler expects that you should know, so. Ugh, they’re great.

Sarah: Yeah, and, and you have to become fluent in subtext to understand what they’re actually saying. It’s all coded.

Rachel: Oh yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Like, they did this big article that I was obsessed with about some university that’s out like in the Midlands or whatever, and their big program, and their big draw is, like, a degree in land management, and you’re like, oh right, that’s where you send, like, your baby dukes, ‘cause it’s like, well, you still own a shitload of England, so you’d better get a degree in how to manage it. And they didn’t really quite get into, like, that that’s what that was, but it’s like, why are there so many aristocrats going to this school and getting a degree in land management? Right! ‘Cause they still own, like, a third of the country. So –

Sarah: Right?

Rachel: – that was, that was quite interesting.

Sarah: My, my personal favorite is mules fit for a man of the manor, speaking of the, the shoes, not the animal.

Rachel: Right. [Laughs]

Sarah: Like, there are some shoes on this website that are completely over the top.

Rachel: Oh God, and I want to see the dudes that wear them, though. Like, I want to know those guys wearing their mules.

Sarah: So in addition to reading Tatler, which I must presume is some outstanding research material, what were some of the challenges in inventing a royal family that exists among the current world of royals, and what were some things that you were, like, absolutely delighted to learn about?

Rachel: Oh man, there was so much. It’s one of those great things where, like, I did a lot of research for these books, but also, like, it’s just stuff that I’m naturally interested in and would have read about anyway.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Rachel: So yeah, it was definitely hard in some cases to come up with sort of a fake royal family, and it was also, like, the most fun I’ve ever had.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Rachel: The real problem is that I’m enough of a history nerd that I would get very hung up on things and be like, well, if, if that, then this, and then if that, then that, and that couldn’t happen, and I literally have, I think, three, four hundred years of fake history, like, in a notebook. I did this huge family tree, starting with Mary, Queen of Scots, and at one point my publisher was like, hey, can we have some of the family tree for this fake royal family? And I was like, okay, so do you want the full four hundred years, and they were like, hell no, we do not; what is wrong with you? We want, like, three generations. But I, I mean, I had, like, professional, like, family tree software, I got so into it. But that was super fun! The, one of the frustrating things has been, though, people being like, I see that this is like Crown Prince of Scotland; um, there is no Crown Prince of Scotland, and I’m like, bitch, do you think I don’t know that? Like –

[Laughter]

Rachel: – of course I know that! Trust me, go with me on this! I would never! I’ve just invented an entire fake history where Scotland got to keep their own monarchy. So yeah, that was, it was challenging, though, and trying to, like, work it into and be like, okay, so does the current British royal family still exist in this world? Like, is, are William and Harry still hanging out down there, which I imply that they are. And yeah, there was, there was so much fun stuff to learn, though. There was all kinds of stuff that I learned that never made it into the book. One of my favorite little –

Sarah: Ohhh?

Rachel: – yeah! – little factoids of history, and I’m probably, it’s one of those stories that it might be true, it might not? But I, in my heart it’s true that in the 1940s, the Princess of Yugoslavia was giving birth in London, and everybody kind of freaked out ‘cause she was going to give birth to the heir of Yugoslavia but in a foreign country, and so allegedly – and of course she was in a hotel, ‘cause it’s 1940s and they’re posh people; God forbid they go to a hospital – so she’s in, like, a fancy hotel, like Claridge’s or something like that, and –

Sarah: I feel bad for housekeeping.

Rachel: [Laughs] Right? Right.

Sarah: Like, ah, dude.

Rachel: Ah, like, no, but they don’t get tipped enough for that.

Sarah: No.

Rachel: And so allegedly, like –

Sarah: It’s the worst.

Rachel: – the government briefly allowed that hotel room to be considered Yugoslavia. They were like, this is Yugoslavian territory –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Rachel: – for the next, like, nine to fourteen hours, so that the baby –

Sarah: Whoa!

Rachel: – is technically born in Yugoslavia. That’s, again, a lot of people say that that’s, like, just a legend or whatever, that that wasn’t really how it went down, but that baby was born in that hotel. But in my heart that’s true, and so I had a whole thing where, like, one of their ancestors, that was the deal with them. They were born in, like, in a Paris hotel room that had to be briefly ceded to Scotland. So yeah, just, like, weird stuff like that, and you can get in a real rabbit hole, especially of, like, minor royalty and minor aristocracy, ‘cause I feel like we know all the big stories about, like, the Windsors or whoever, but yeah, when you start getting into those sort of, like, the royalty we don’t know that much about, it gets really weird really fast, so that was super fun.

Sarah: Oh man. And you also have to come up with the hooks to anchor this world to reality, but not so many that they start to conflict?

Rachel: Right.

Sarah: That’s really hard.

Rachel: Yeah, I always feel like it’s one of those things where it’s always better for me to know a lot more than is actually on the page, because I do think you can also, like, really bog people down. Like, no one really cares that much about my fake history. I enjoy it, but, like, it’s not that important to the story, and also I feel like it’s one of those things where you’re either going to go with the idea or you’re not. My friend calls it eating the blanket. She’s like, you’ve either got to eat the blanket or not. I don’t know why she says that, but it’s a great way of looking at it, like –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Rachel: – you’ve either accepted it or you haven’t. Eat the blanket! And so that’s kind of how I felt about that; like, you’re either going to accept that, hey, Scotland’s got its own royal family right now or you’re not.

Sarah: Yeah.

Rachel: And if you’re not, then cool! There are many other books for you to read.

Sarah: Yeah.

Rachel: So, so yeah, it was, it’s, like, always like a balancing act, you know –

Sarah: Absolutely.

Rachel: – of too much versus, wait, why is this? So yeah, that was – and again, I’m always going to err on the side, especially, I think, not that YA necess-, I mean, YA can be extremely detailed and very deep and all that, but I also do try to keep in mind that my readers are mostly here for the story, and I don’t want –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Rachel: – to bog them down with anything –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Rachel: – that’s going to interfere with their enjoyment of that.

Sarah: It’s got to keep moving.

Rachel: Exactly, exactly. It’s got to be super pace-y. So yeah, it’s just that the balance, and so I’m always like a less is more kind of gal.

Sarah: Yeah. So you just announced a Jane Eyre alternate universe with Southern Gothic feminist anger rage.

Rachel: Yes, that’s, that’s going to be the blurb.

Sarah: One of my reviewers, Elyse, said, “I want that book like right now. I want it so bad it hurts.” And when I mentioned to her that I was interviewing you today – [laughs] – she –

Rachel: I love Elyse’s reviews, so, on your site, so that makes it –

Sarah: – she said, I need all the deets on that Southern Gothic right now. I’m prepared to wrestle people for that book.

Rachel: [Laughs] Good! Well, it’s like halfway done on my computer right now, but one day when it’s an actual book – yeah, that is such an interesting project because it came to me via Alloy, who do, like, IP-type stuff, you know, work for hire. They did, like –

Sarah: Yeah!

Rachel: – Gossip Girl and all that kind of stuff. It came through to my agent – Holly Root, who I have to shout out – and Holly sent it to me and said, you know, I know that you’ve never done adult, and you’ve never done a thriller, and you’ve never done write-for-hire work, but this just really sounds like your kind of thing. Do you want to, you know, send them some pages and see what they think? And so I did, ‘cause I, it was that sort of thing. I was like, this is just – now, when it came to me it was, it was very basic, like just modern Jane Eyre, you know, the, except they’re in a McMansion and Bertha is in the panic room of the McMansion.

Sarah: Right.

Rachel: And so I wrote some pages and then ended up, they said, yes, we would like you to write this book, and when I went up to New York to meet with them and we started talking about it, they were really, really open to me doing my own kind of thing with it, and one of the things, ‘cause I think, like, originally it was just sort of set in, like, like a lot of those domestic suspense noir books, you know, it’s, like, generic Connecticut; everybody is very WASP-y. Which is fun, but it’s, that’s not, you know, I don’t, I don’t really have any experience with generic Connecticut, and –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Rachel: – they said, like, where are you from? And when I said Alabama, they said, well, do you want to set it there? And I said, hell yeah! Because there’s just such a – I, I did, I thought that was such an interesting way of marrying kind of modern Southern Gothic, but also, you know, there are certainly places in Alabama, and specifically where I’ve set this book in Birmingham, where that same kind of, like, Big Little Lies type dynamic is still very much going on, you know; I just don’t think we see a huge amount of it. So yeah, it, it’s – and then when I started writing it, again – [laughs] – I was writing it around the same time I was writing Her Royal Highness, and given, you know, the general state of the world right now, it was very fun to, like, embrace female anger, and both Jane and Bertha – and Blanche Ingram, like, ‘cause I had used a lot of the ladies from Jane Eyre – have a lot of reasons to be really pissed off, and, like, what does that look like?

Sarah: Yeah!

Rachel: So –

Sarah: And they have to pretend that they’re not.

Rachel: Right! They have to pretend all the time, and that, that’s one of the things that I was interested in with this, was not necessarily doing, like, a beat-for-beat retelling of Jane Eyre?

Sarah: Right.

Rachel: But, like, what does the story of Jane Eyre look like told in the 21st century in this very specific place? Like, now what happens? And so, yeah, it was really – and that was one of the things that I found when I reread Jane Eyre and then when I was doing my own take on it. I’m like, God, girlfriend is pissed, and, like, she should be! So that’s been really fun to get into. Yeah, it’s, it’s a crazy, crazy book, and I love it with my whole heart. It’s, it’s the most fun to work on; like, every time I’m working on it, I giggle with glee, basically.

Sarah: And you get to give the agency of rage to characters who weren’t really allowed to fully express that.

Rachel: Oh yeah, absolutely, and that’s why I said, like, it’s so interesting to look at, like, what does, like, Jane Eyre, like, that character, how does she look when she’s, you know, twenty in 2018, 2019 or whatever? What does that look like? And, and it’s, like I said, it’s really pissed off. And also, like, really determined.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Rachel: So, and that sort of changed a lot of the romantic aspects of the story?

Sarah: Uh, yeah.

Rachel: ‘Cause I don’t think a guy like Edward Rochester can be a romantic hero in the 21st century. [Laughs] He’s barely one in the 1800s.

Sarah: Yeah, he, he just, mm, yeah.

Rachel: Yeah, yeah. So that’s also been – and also, that’s another thing, like, what does a guy like that look like now? And sort of looking at, oh, toxic masculinity and, like, privileged white men and, like, what do we let men get away with because they’re, you know, decent looking and have a lot of money?

Sarah: Yeah.

Rachel: So yeah, it’s, it’s definitely a very, it, it felt timely, like both just were like, what’s going on right now? And also for me personally; like I said, that was just kind of the thing that I wanted to write right now. I was joking with a friend about how I don’t want to read about anything but unlikeable heroines right now, because we’re all unlikeable heroines – [laughs] – at this particular –

Sarah: Yeah.

Rachel: – moment in time. We sort of have to be! And that’s a very, very fun thing to explore, especially, like, through the lens of, of Jane Eyre, which does, like, loom so large in pop culture.

Sarah: Yes, and it’s still, it’s still a story and a character that people want to talk about. There’s, there’s so much nuance to her as a character and as a person and also as a, as, like, an archetype –

Rachel: Oh yeah.

Sarah: – that people are still fascinated with her!

Rachel: Right! I mean, I think there’s a reason that we keep doing retellings of it or different interpret-, like, movies and things like that.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Rachel: And it is, she’s, it’s a fascinating book, and she’s a fascinating character. ‘Cause I do think how interesting it is that, you know, at the end of the day, in the original book, you know, that she, she picks Mr. Rochester. Like, that is who she wants to be with, and you’re like, that guy is fucked up! But, like, that’s the fucked up you chose, you know?

Sarah: Yeah.

Rachel: And that’s, that’s interesting. You know, she could have St. John, but nah, that guy’s boring, and –

Sarah: Yep.

Rachel: – yeah, that, there’s a lot to unpack there.

Sarah: Especially about how you define heroism.

Rachel: Right, right, big time. So –

Sarah: How are you, how are you incorporating elements of Southern Gothic into this retelling? Is there some-, is, can you talk about that, or is that too spoiler-y?

Rachel: Yeah, no, no. A lot of, because in a way it’s not just a retelling of Jane Eyre, it’s also a retelling of Wide Sargasso Sea, ‘cause we get into Bertha’s –

Sarah: Right.

Rachel: – or as Bea as her name in this – into her backstory a lot, and that was really where the sort of Southern Gothic got to come in?

Sarah: Right.

Rachel: I love a good Southern Gothic. Dealing with the sort of backwardness and the occasional, like, toxicity of femininity in the South, which is still very much a thing –

Sarah: Yeah.

Rachel: – and, and is something that I’ve definitely grown up witnessing, the sort of like, the girls school culture or the sorority culture, that sort of thing. Sort of making that even, like, darker and more toxic while also, like, applying the sort of old Southern Gothic tropes of, like, the, you know, the family that used to have and now not so much, and, and again, like, what does that look like in the 21st century South, as opposed to, like, the 1800s? So that’s kind of how I’ve, like, been adding – it’s, it is a very, like, modern Southern Gothic, but, like, yeah, what does Southern Gothic look like now? And it doesn’t look –

Sarah: Yeah!

Rachel: – quite like Flannery O’Connor anymore, you know.

Sarah: Nooo. I’m, I’m always fascinated by – [sighs] – not updating, but re-, sort of spinning Southern Gothic, ‘cause I am quite Yankee, but I went to a Southern women’s college in South Carolina.

Rachel: Okay. So you know.

Sarah: And one of the benefit – right! Oh yeah – and one of the benefits to going to a very small women’s college in South Carolina is that I was exposed to an entirely different system of femininity and masculinity –

Rachel: Right.

Sarah: – but also I was an English major, and so we didn’t have to read dead white guys. I read a lot of Flannery, I read Eudora Welty, I read –

Rachel: Yeah.

Sarah: – all of these different Southern writers, so I took a very deep dive into Southern Gothic as part of my English degree –

Rachel: Yeah.

Sarah: – so when I see writers playing with it I’m like, oh, really, tell me more, tell me more things!

Rachel: [Laughs] Yeah!

Sarah: But then the problem is, that gets to be too spoiler-y, so I’m always like, oh crap! How do I ask? [Laughs]

Rachel: Yeah, exactly! ‘Cause it is, it’s kind of hard to talk about without, like, giving away a lot of, like, her backstory and, and how she ends up being the person that she ends up being.

Sarah: Right.

Rachel: But it is, yeah, ‘cause there’s, there’s something, like, so – I’m going to get in trouble for this, but you don’t have to edit it out – [laughs] – there’s still something like, you know, so bizarrely retro about so much of, like, how femininity’s presented in the South especially, and, and I’m really thinking about, like, sororities and stuff like that, which, obviously sororities exist everywhere, but there’s something very specifically weird to me about them down here. And, and the pageant culture –

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Rachel: – that, the whole thing, it’s very, like, performative femininity.

Sarah: And there’s a role assigned by gender that is just astonishing at how early it starts.

Rachel: Right! Exactly, and it still feels, like, really solid here, which again, you’re like, oh wow, it’s, like, the 21st century! We’re still, we’re still doing this? We’re still doing, like, the –

Sarah: Cotillion?

Rachel: – father/daughter dances and, you know, all of that? Okay! [Laughs]

Sarah: Ew.

Rachel: Yeah, I know. I’m – [laughs]. And yeah, so that’s, that’s definitely something that’s interesting to unpack in this book, and to unpack via a character like Bertha Rochester –

Sarah: Yeah.

Rachel: – is particularly, it’s, it’s a lot of fun, but yeah, it’s, it’s definitely, there’s some deep wells you can get into there.

Sarah: There really is.

Rachel: Yeah, big time.

Sarah: So one of the hallmarks of your writing career is to take very familiar things like boarding school, magic, fantasy realms, royalty –

Rachel: Right.

Sarah: – and to twist them and update the tropes. Does your brain just wake up in the middle of the night and be like, how ‘bout we do this?

Rachel: Basically, yeah.

[Laughter]

Rachel: Pretty much. I, I love tropes, for one. Like, I –

Sarah: Uh-oh.

Rachel: – I am a trope-y girl, and my favorite thing though is, like, oh, is somebody really doing something different with that trope? That’s what I’m always looking for. I’m always like, did you, did you gender reverse it, did you do something? One of, like, the best books, best romance novels that I’ve read recently was Scarlett Peckham’s The Duke I Tempted, and –

Sarah: Oh yes.

Rachel: Oh, so good! I loved the second one even more, but I thought the first one did this thing that I kept waiting for, which is that I kept sort of being like, why – like, he’s the duke; he’s got all the power in the world, but, you know, when it comes to the sexual relationship, he’s the sub, and I’m like, yes, that’s what I want to see. I want to see, like, that reversal where he’s not necessarily like the billionaire who’s also very dominant. I love those kind of – and I thought that book in particular was so smart in the way that it handled their relationship, both in society and sexually, by flipping around tropes –

Sarah: Yeah.

Rachel: – in really cool ways. So yeah, I, I, I live to, like, come up with various scenarios of things; anything that kind of takes my interest, I’m immediately like, ooh, what if you did this and then you did this, and then it went over here, and you know –

Sarah: Yep.

Rachel: The thing that I’ve had to learn is that not every little spiral like that is necessarily a book, and that’s okay. It’s almost like doing exercises or something, you know? [Laughs] It’s, you’re keeping your brain in it’s kind of book-making shape, but you don’t have to chase –

Sarah: Yeah.

Rachel: – every rabbit that occurs to you. And that, knowing that –

Sarah: Sometimes it’s just fun to think about.

Rachel: Right, right, and I’m very lucky in that one of my best friends, she’s not a writer, but she loves doing that too; that, for her, is, like, a fun creative exercise, and so sometimes we just send emails back and forth, like, basically ginning up stories that neither of us are ever going to write –

[Laughter]

Rachel: – but it was just sort of – and that’s really fun. I’ve compared it, with her especially, I was like, it’s like we’re forty years old, but we’re playing Barbies. You know, it’s that sort, sort of like creative and, like, building on each other’s ideas, but it’s not, it doesn’t have to go anywhere. It can just be for fun! And that’s been hugely, hugely helpful, and again, it’s sort of stopped me from freaking out that every sort of story idea that I want to, like, daydream about or write down in a notebook somewhere needs to be a book; it just doesn’t.

Sarah: And it gives you more to think about on road trips.

Rachel: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. That’s why I can’t listen to, like, audiobooks or anything, actually, in the car, because my brain always wanders. I can do podcasts okay in the car or, like, at the gym or whatever –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Rachel: – but with books I’m like, oh no. For some reason I’m always thinking of my own thing, like, within five minutes, and then I’m like, oh shit, what’s happened? Rewind! [Laughs]

Sarah: Yep.

Rachel: Something important happened in this book.

Sarah: So you also publish, on a semi-regular basis, Twitter threads of Sexy History –

Rachel: Sexy History.

Sarah: – which is terrific, not only for the history and the, and the sexy, sexytimes and the let’s talk about how really fucked up some of this history was, but your GIF game is a nuanced, outstanding enterprise.

Rachel: Thank you!

Sarah: Well played!

Rachel: Thank you!

Sarah: Dude!

Rachel: Yeah, it’s, that’s actually what’s been really funny is that, like, we’ve had a couple of people come to me and my agent and be like, oh, we’d love to make this into a book, and we’re always like, how, though? Like, if you don’t have the GIFs, like, that’s, like, part of the, the humor of it is that –

Sarah: Right.

Rachel: I’m like, I don’t, I don’t know how to make it a book; I’m sorry. It’s a, it’s like a multimedia performance art sort of thing that I’m doing here. Yeah, those are so much fun! I haven’t done one in forever, and I need to get back into it, but they take up, like, two hours of my morning at the time – [laughs] – and then I’m like, oh right, I should write books now. So –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Rachel: – that’s, I should probably do the stuff that people pay me.

Sarah: They do take a lot of time, I imagine.

Rachel: Take a lot of time, yeah, and the thing is, is that I don’t plan them out before. I mean, I know what I’m going to talk about when I sit down to do it, but I don’t, like, go necessarily searching for the GIFs or anything like that, because I feel like it works better if it’s looser. Like, it shouldn’t be all sort of planned out. I, I don’t know; I think people kind of respond to that. I want it to feel like –

Sarah: Yeah.

Rachel: – I’m just telling you a story and we’re chatting, and so that means, like, sometimes I make mistakes or I call somebody by the wrong name or whatever, but that –

Sarah: Right.

Rachel: – a fun part of it. But, yeah, but it also can feel very, like, there are times when I start it, and it feels like you just, like, stepped on stage in your underwear a little bit? [Laughs] You’re like, oh –

Sarah: Yes!

Rachel: – I, I can’t find the GIF that I was going to use for this! Okay – you know, that kind of –

Sarah: Oh crap!

Rachel: Yeah, but that’s how I like to, that’s like, I like to keep it free and loose. But yeah, they’re super duper fun to do, and it was really surprising to me that, like, it kind of took off like it did, or that people would really like it, ‘cause it just felt like, to me it was like, and here’s yet another silly thing I’m doing on the internet for my own gratification, which is, like, most of my internet experience. But no, people –

Sarah: What has been your favorite?

Rachel: Oh, I think probably actually the first one that I did, about Owen Tudor, because I, one, I really just hope that in doing that I will somehow have put into the universe that we need a ten-part Owen Tudor miniseries, because we do. And I also really liked doing the one about Margaret Tudor, because I feel like Henry VIII gets so much ink, understandably.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Rachel: You know, when you, like, start a new religion –

Sarah: Yeah.

Rachel: – and execute wives and things, I get it, I get it, but his sisters were really fascinating people in their own right, and they don’t get nearly enough – like, again, I’m like, why don’t we have a, you know, Margaret miniseries? She went on to be Queen of Scotland, she got married, like three or four times, she tried to turn a cannon on her own husband. Like – [laughs] – these are fascinating things!

Sarah: As you do.

Rachel: Yeah, yeah! As one does! So yeah, that, that one was really fun too. They’re, I mean, they’re all a good time, but yeah, those are probably my two favorites.

Sarah: So basically you’re writing the Tatler of history on Twitter.

Rachel: [Laughs] Yes! Exactly, exactly. Letting you know all the scandal.

Sarah: What do you have planned for the next one or the next few? Do you have any stories that you’re earmarking for future Sexy History?

Rachel: Yeah! It was funny, ‘cause I feel like I was like, oh, I’m kind of running out of the things that I just know stuff naturally about? [Laughs] Like, I’m going to have to –

Sarah: Right.

Rachel: – actually do some research now! I was doing a special on the Wars of the Roses, and I need to finish that for sure –

Sarah: Right.

Rachel: – so that I can explain the Wars of the Roses to people, because it’s super complicated, but it can be kind of stripped down to, like, here’s why everyone was pissed. As is the case with most things in history, it’s like, there were too many dudes, is what it comes down to. Like, as I like to say, the –

Sarah: Right.

Rachel: – the tangle of wangs. I’m like, that’s what we have here, so now their history is just a vast tangle of wang.

Sarah: [Laughs] And, and all of the wangs were mad that they were not the most important one.

Rachel: The most important wang, like that’s all they ever want to be. So that, and then I actually was reading – just, again, for my own fun – a sort of trashy book about the Grimaldis of Monaco, and I was like, you know, we talk a lot about Princess Grace, ‘cause obviously, but man, like, that’s a really weird royal family! And they’ve been hanging out for, like, seven hundred years being weird. And so I was like, yeah, we should for sure, I’m, I’m at some point going to get into, ‘cause the whole book – it’s by Anne Edwards, and it’s called The Grimaldis of Monaco – she just starts with, like, the, the founding of that particular dynasty and follows it all the way through to Princess Grace, and, but yeah, they had a lot going on! So I, I need to tackle that at some point.

Sarah: That, that’ll, that’ll be something.

Rachel: [Laughs] Yeah, yeah, ‘cause there’s a lot! There’s a lot, and they’re in such a weird position, you know, of, like, they are a country, kind of, and, but, like, France is always right there to be like, hey, guys, don’t forget about us!

Sarah: Yep.

Rachel: And, yeah, so that’s, they’re really, they’re, they’re hot messes, which is what I like! That’s my favorite thing about all of history is, like, who is the biggest hot mess? I want to talk about them.

Sarah: Yep. And there is a whole dynasty of hot mess.

Rachel: Whole dynasty of hot – seven hundred years of hot mess.

Sarah: And gambling and tuxedos and wealth and -.

Rachel: Yeah, a lot of money and illegitimate children –

Sarah: Yachts.

Rachel: – everywhere.

Sarah: Holy smoke!

Rachel: So many! I mean, that’s, like, part of, like, why, like – again, I need to, I’ll save it for the Sexy History, but I think it’s Rainier’s mother was illegitimate, and, like, they were about to run out of heirs, so they were like, oh crap, let’s take one of these bastard kids and, like, legitimize them so that we don’t get swallowed into France and we keep having our own royal family.

Sarah: Right.

Rachel: And so that’s like, that’s crazy, obviously. That’s kind of a, that feels like a very, like, Danielle Steel, like old-school Danielle Steel, like, and the girl who’s plucked from obscurity to go be the Princess of Monaco. Like, I –

Sarah: Yep.

Rachel: – love that.

Sarah: And that’s a very familiar trope.

Rachel: Oh, totally, totally.

Sarah: You are secretly royalty.

Rachel: Right, which, I mean, come on. That’s the most fun, ‘cause it’s –

Sarah: Totally!

Rachel: – excellent wish fulfillment.

Sarah: Now, on Instagram, anyone who follows you on Instagram gets a very high dosage of the recommended daily allowance of kitten pictures?

Rachel: So many cats!

Sarah: How many kittens have you fostered now, and how did you get started fostering kittens? And is this the greatest thing that’s ever happened to your bathroom?

Rachel: Yeah, okay, absolutely the greatest thing that’s ever happened. But –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Rachel: – the problem is, we fostered four, and out of those four that we fostered, we adopted two of them, so –

Sarah: Ruh-roh!

Rachel: – like fifty percent – [laughs] – which is not good. Like, we can’t – so actually –

Sarah: They saw you coming!

Rachel: No, yeah, exactly, so I was like, right now, we’re talking a small break from fostering, now that we’ve adopted those two, ‘cause now we have five cats.

Sarah: That’s all right; listen, I’ve got two cats, two dogs, two boys, thirteen and eleven: I hear you.

Rachel: Nice, yeah. Exactly. So that was, I kind of said, I was like look, we can have these two extra cats because we don’t have a dog, so therefore –

Sarah: Right!

Rachel: – I literally was, like, Googling, like, is five cats too many cats? And the internet said it was not, because we have four bedrooms in our house –

Sarah: No!

Rachel: – so it’s fine. Internet –

Sarah: Listen, I used to have four cats when we still lived in New Jersey.

Rachel: Yeah.

Sarah: I had two – ‘cause I learned that you should adopt cats from the same litter in pairs –

Rachel: Yeah.

Sarah: – because cats memorize the schedule, and if you deviate from the schedule or do anything to stress them out they have their buddy, and they are comforted, and they are a lot less –

Rachel: Exactly!

Sarah: – you know, neurotic. Now, everyone at my house is neurotic, so that didn’t work.

Rachel: Right, yeah, I was going to say.

Sarah: But when I was, my kids were in elementary school, one of the classmates of my older son, she and her sister came up to me with their mom, and they were like, we heard you have cats! And I’m like, yeah! Actually, we, we want to adopt some cat, maybe, maybe one or two, and we wanted to ask you a question. And I was like, oh, well, I have four!

Rachel: Yeah!

Sarah: And at that moment, their mother grabbed their hands and dragged them away from me.

Rachel: Just like, no! Not the crazy cat lady.

Sarah: Yeah, we’re not talking to her.

Rachel: [Laughs]

Sarah: Like, you should have seen their faces; they were like – [gasps] – you can have four at the same time?!

Rachel: Oh no!

Sarah: I was like, and dogs too! [Laughs]

Rachel: You can have all the cats you want.

Sarah: Oh yeah, our, our house sitter document is literally called “All About Our Zoo.”

Rachel: [Laughs] That’s amazing!

Sarah: So you have lots of kittens.

Rachel: Yeah. So, yeah, now we have, we adopted these two, and yeah, they’re, they’re brothers, but, and they came, like, when we fostered them, they came together. They were so tiny, they were only about three weeks old when we got them, and –

Sarah: Oh my gosh, that’s young!

Rachel: – so they had to be bottle fed, and it just turns out, like, when you bottle feed something, giving it back is very, very hard. [Laughs]

Sarah: What?!

Rachel: I know! Who knew that, like, wrapping them in little blankies like babies and giving them bottles would make me really attached to them? Who could have ever foreseen? But also, like, my husband got super attached, and that was the problem. I was really, the, the first two that we fostered, he was really like the stalwart about, like, and we fostered, we give them back, and, you know, and we sponsored their adoptions and things like that, but we couldn’t keep them. And then we got these two boys, Merlin and Bosworth, and he was named –

Sarah: Great names!

Rachel: They were originally Click and Clack, which is also cute – [laughs] – but –

Sarah: Yeah.

Rachel: – but we went with, with Merlin – that’s when we knew we were screwed, too, when I was like, what if we called them, this one is Bosworth? And it was all over.

Sarah: Yep.

Rachel: And so, yeah, he suddenly was like, they’re such sweet babies! I love these boys! And that’s when it, yeah. Like, if he had held out, I could have probably taken them back. It would have sucked, and I would have cried like I did with the other two, but I would have made it. But no, he folded like a cheap suit, so then it was oh, nah, yeah, and now we have five cats –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Rachel: – so it’s all, it’s all John’s fault, really. So but, yeah, they’re great, though. They’re like the sweetest, sweetest cats is the thing, and, and again, because they were a pair, the idea that they could be adopted into separate homes really bummed me out, ‘cause they love each other so much.

Sarah: Yeah.

Rachel: And our other cats, we have, our two older ones, Nessie and Daenerys, they were a pair that we adopted, or we found in the garage, and then our other one, Zelda, she came to us because she was a stray, and –

Sarah: Right.

Rachel: – one of my husband’s students found her and couldn’t keep her, so she’s like our old lady cat; she’s probably about twelve. So yeah, it’s, we’re one very fur-covered family. [Laughs] Now no one can ever wear black ever again.

Sarah: But when you buy the, the masking tape linty rolls –

Rachel: Ooh, yeah! Yeah.

Sarah: – at Costco? You do okay.

Rachel: There you go! Exactly. That’s a good idea. And now –

Sarah: And I will tell you, a panty liner or a maxi pad adhesive will work in a pinch.

Rachel: There you go, there you go! That’s a good idea!

Sarah: All right, so I have two questions that came to me after I sent you the questions.

Rachel: Okay.

Sarah: One is an easy one from Amanda, who, who is part of Smart Bitches –

Rachel: Okay.

Sarah: – HQ. She says, first of all, thank you for Hex Hall; I love that series.

Rachel: Yay!

Sarah: And her question was, do your readers have a favorite –

Rachel: It’s –

Sarah: – of your books?

Rachel: Yeah, it’s very weird. One of the things that I sort of figured out – like, I’ve obviously got readers that have been following me since Hex Hall and have read everything –

Sarah: Right.

Rachel: – which is excellent, but the, the series definitely, like, the different series kind of attracted their own fans? So I feel like probably, like, more people like Hex Hall than anything else, just ‘cause that was kind of the first one, and –

Sarah: Right.

Rachel: – now – which is bizarre to me, so it’ll, will, let’s see, it came out in 2010, so now I’m running into, like –

Sarah: Whew!

Rachel: – what seemed to me to be, like, adult women being, like, you were my favorite author in middle school, and I’m like – [laughs] – I’m sorry, what?

Sarah: Wha-at?

Rachel: No, no, no, no! That was not that long ago! What are you saying? So I think it sort of has that – and it, it’s had some, like, nice staying power, which I appreciate. But then the people who love Rebel Belle are really passionate about it, but those books are so weird, and so I really love that, like, the people who are very into them are very into them. They kind of get what I was doing there. So, yeah, I would say, like, Hex Hall is probably like my readers’ favorite. It’s the one I still hear the most about; it’s the one that I occasionally still get people being like, are you ever going to write any more of them?

Sarah: Yeah.

Rachel: Yeah, probably that one.

Sarah: What are you reading right now that you want to tell people about?

Rachel: What am I reading right now? Okay, so I just got very into the Sarina Bowen True North books, the, like, apple orchard romances?

Sarah: Right.

Rachel: [Laughs] I’m apparently, I find, like, those kind of like small town series romances extremely comforting –

Sarah: Yep.

Rachel: – so I, also, and – [laughs] – and I saw, like, one of her books had, like, the hero was, like, a twenty-three-year-old virgin who’d been kicked out of, like, a polygamous cult when he was a teenager, and I was immediately like, I don’t know what it says about me, but I have to have that book in my face immediately. Like, that’s, I want to read that kind of romance hero, and so that led me to all of those, and they’re great.

I’m also, I’m actually rereading a history book that I love called Blood Sisters by Sarah Gristwood, and it is about the women of the Wars of the Roses. Sarah Gristwood in general is probably one of my favorite history writers, because she always looks at the women of a certain period. She’s got another great book called Game of Queens, and she did a great biography of Arabella Stuart, who was cousin to Queen Elizabeth, and who I did a Sexy History about one.

So I’m really loving that, and I just started reading – I keep joking that because of the new adult book that I’m like, well, now that I’m a thriller writer – [laughs] – like that’s my, I’ve said it like nine times to different people – so I’ve been reading a lot more thrillers, and there’s a really good one called Girls’ Night Out by Liz Fenton and Lisa Steinke, and it’s, like, a girls’ vacation in Mexico gone very, very wrong. I love it.

[music]

Sarah: And that brings us to the end of this week’s episode. I want to thank Rachel Hawkins for hanging out and chatting with me. If you would like to find her on the internet, I have links to all of the places that you can do so. You can find her on Twitter @LadyHawkins, on Instagram @LadyHawkins, and on Tumblr at TheRealLadyHawkins, and when she has a website I will link to that as well!

And if you would like to ask questions or suggest guests or you have thoughts on this episode, I want to hear them! You can email me at [email protected], or you can leave a message at 1-201-371-3272. Tell me what you’re thinking about, ask questions, or tell me a terrible joke, because you know that I love them. Either way, I love hearing from you, and I hope that if you have something to say, you will get in touch!

This week’s podcast sponsor would like to wish you a Happy Galentine’s week. Heaving Bosoms: A Romance Novel Podcast is bringing you this week’s episode. Each week, two long-distance best friends, Erin and Melody, do deep-dive recaps of a different romance novel. If you love fangirling over your favorite latest read with your best girlfriends, you will love listening to Erin and Melody break down their favorite – and occasionally not-so-favorite – romance novels. Each episode comes with a heaping dose of unconditional friendship, sex and pleasure positivity, openhearted feminism, and hilarious tangents. From Tessa Dare to Sally Thorne to Chuck Tingle, Erin and Mel are tackling every kind of smooching book they can find, and they’re always taking suggestions. They recommend starting with two favorite episodes: “Episode 41 – The Kiss Quotient by Helen Hoang” or “Episode 39 – Mastered by Her Mates by Grace Goodwin.” Just don’t listen around the kids, because, like your favorite books, these two can get a little explicit. You can find Heaving Bosoms on their website, on Apple Podcasts, on Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts. They are the perfect Galentine’s week treat.

This week’s podcast transcript is brought to you by Summoned to Thirteenth Grave by Darynda Jones. If you like J. R. Ward or Jeaniene Frost, you will love this paranormal romp that tickles not only the funny bone but parts a little farther down as well. Charley Davidson, Grim Reaper extraordinaire, is back after a century of exile. She is hurt, she is angry, and she is out for revenge. But a century on one plane is not the same as it is on others, and she comes back to find a furious husband who can still melt the polar ice caps with a single glance, a world in chaos, and an expanding hell dimension that is taking over our own plane of existence. She has three days to stop an apocalypse that she may have accidentally caused and to soothe the savage beast that is her blisteringly hot soul mate. Don’t miss the latest book in the series that RT Book Reviews calls wickedly funny with true chilling danger. Summoned to Thirteenth Grave by Darynda Jones is on sale now wherever books are sold. Find out more at daryndajones.com.

If you have supported the show on our Patreon, thank you, thank you, thank you for doing so; I really appreciate that. You can have a look at patreon.com/SmartBitches if you would like to have a look at the levels and rewards. Monthly pledges start at a dollar a month, and everyone who pledges is part of the Patreon community, and they help me develop questions for interviews, suggest guests, and help us decide which book to read for our quarterly podcast book club. We will be announcing our first title very soon, so if you would like to hop in on the fun, patreon.com/SmartBitches. Thank you for helping me keep the podcast going.

The music you’re listening to is provided by Sassy Outwater. You can find her on Twitter @SassyOutwater. This is the Peatbog Faeries. This is their album Blackhouse, and this particular song is called “Strictly Sambuca.” I think that that is as good a decision as having corn chips for lunch. You can find the Peatbog Faeries and all of their albums at Amazon and iTunes or wherever you buy your music.

Coming up this week on Smart Bitches, we have many, many things, so many things! Here are some of the things, because I love to tell you how much fun we have coming up with our schedule each week. Saturday the 16th, we have Hide Your Wallet, Part II, or what Amanda calls Word on the Street. That is when we talk about books that we’ve heard about recently, and we also talk about new releases or upcoming titles that we’ve learned about this past month. We have a new discussion question on Sunday: I would really like to know where you hang out online, other than at Smart Bitches. It’s a very easy survey, and I thank you in advance for telling me where you like to be. And on Monday, get ready. We have a big giveaway on Monday; I’m very excited about this. Avon is giving away two tickets to their Chicago KissCon, and we have all the details on the site so you can enter to win. Plus, we have reviews, a new Rec League, a Bachelor recap from Elyse, Books on Sale, Help a Bitch Out – it’s all kinds of fun, so I hope you’ll stop by and say hello.

I will have links to everything we talked about, especially to Sexy History, and to all the books that were mentioned as well.

And as always, I end with a terrible joke, and this one’s really bad. I love it. Love it so much! Okay. [Clears throat] Serious face.

Why do dogs float in water?

Why do dogs float in water?

Because they’re good buoys.

[Laughs] Who’s a good buoy? Actually, I have good buoys on my carpet right now, and now they’re looking at me like, why don’t you give me a treat? They’re good buoys! [Laughs more] That is from borda922. [Sighs] So lovely! I love a bad joke, and I love when you send them to me, so thank you in advance for doing so.

On behalf of Rachel Hawkins and everyone here, we wish you the very best of reading. Have a wonderful weekend, and we will see you back here next week.

[lively music]