323. A Big Gay Fiction Interview with Jeff Adams and Will Knauss

[music]

Sarah Wendell: Hello, and welcome to episode number 323 of Smart Podcast, Trashy Books. I am Sarah Wendell from Smart Bitches, Trashy Books, and today I am chatting with Jeff Adams and Will Knauss of the Big Gay Fiction Podcast. There will be a quiz later as to what that podcast is about, so get ready. I’m kidding. We’re going to talk about how they met and what brought them to starting a podcast and what brought them to reading romance. We discuss their favorite tropes, the magic of discovering the common elements of your reader catnip – which you know is one of my favorite things – and we also touch on reading and listening versus reading or listening to a book, how you read, and if that influences what you read, and we also talk about podcasting. There is so much good information about podcasting, including behind-the-scenes details plus information on starting your own podcast, if that is something you are interested in doing, and why podcasts about books are so popular. And of course we talk about their writing, how a ringtone inspired an entire series of books, and what books they’re recommending.

I am always curious what you think about episodes, so if you would like to email me, you have comments, you have questions, email [email protected]. You can also call and leave a message at 1-201-371-3272. Don’t forget to leave your name and where you’re calling from so we can add you to a future episode. I am always curious what you think about the interviews and the episodes each week!

This week’s podcast and the podcast transcript are brought to you by Rachel van Dyken’s Dangerous Exes, available now from Skyscape Books. In number one New York Times bestselling author Rachel Van Dyken’s scorching series, revenge is a justified pleasure. Isla made one teeny little mistake. Now she and her PI company, Dirty Exes, are being targeted by one seriously angry and furiously sexy ex-quarterback. Jessie freakin’ Beckett. But there’s no way some NFL superhunk is going to take her business away. If only he didn’t make her so hot – and bothered. Jessie wants payback for a ruined reputation. His plan is top secret. His hard-to-hide arousal for Isla? Not so much. Especially when they let down their guards and sneak a kiss. Like every juicy scandal, it goes so viral, so fast, that only a good lie can combat the bad press. Mortal enemies in a fling? No way! Um…this is love! Actually…could it be? ‘Cause Isla’s not faking it, and Jessie can’t. As the game of let’s pretend gets very real, Jessie forgets all about revenge. His plan is already out of his control. Now it could undo everything they’ve been trying to build. Coming clean may be the only thing that can save it. Readers who love revenge fantasies and opposites who really attract won’t be able to put this book down. Dangerous Exes by Rachel Van Dyken is available now from Skyscape Books!

Now earlier this year I told you about the Sudio Tre, a Bluetooth headset that I was asked to try out. I liked the Tre a lot. I used it daily for working out and walking the dogs. I would leave them in while I was cooking or cleaning to listen to audiobooks. They were really comfortable, and they didn’t make my ears hurt in a way that a lot of in-ear headphones often do. And I don’t know about you, but I don’t like headphones that have a bar that sits on the top of my head; they always give me a headache. Anyway, recently, Sudio contacted me again to ask if I would like to try their new wireless Bluetooth earbuds, the Nivå. Now the Tre has this flat cord that goes around the back of my neck – totally comfortable – but the Nivå are two wireless earbuds that go in each ear with no cord. I was very intrigued about this. Y’all, they are so comfortable. I wear them daily. I walk the dog; I work out; I wander around the house. They have, according to Sudio, 3.5 hours of playtime, and I haven’t gotten close to using that in a single day. They’re easy to connect with a Bluetooth device, and the case is the charging dock. And they have magnets in them, which I really appreciate, so you put the correct earbud in the correct spot for charging. I really, really like them, and so I get to offer a coupon. Yay! The discount code for fifteen percent off any purchase at sudio.com – that’s S-U-D-I-O, sudio.com – is SMART, S-M-A-R-T. If you use coupon code SMART, you will get fifteen percent off any purchase and free worldwide shipping, which is pretty nifty! I really like these; they are a great gift idea, especially if you or someone that you know likes, you know, podcasts, like this one. So thank you to Sudio for sending me the Nivå. All right, now, you might need to correct my pronunciation. So Nivå is written with the little circle over the A, and I got a bunch of contra-, contradictory information on the internet, and I was, the thing I thought was correct was that it’s sort of like the, the sound of “oar,” O-A-R, so “ah,” so maybe it’s knee-vah. I could be wrong, but if I’m pronouncing that wrong and you’d like to correct me, definitely do so. Either way, Sudio, S-U-D-I-O dot com with coupon code SMART gets you fifteen percent off!

Now, if you have supported the show with a monthly pledge of any amount, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. You are helping me ensure that each episode has a transcript and that every episode is accessible to everyone, which is important to me and many readers and listeners, so thank you for that. If you would like to join the Patreon community, it would be awesome if you did. You can have a look at patreon.com/SmartBitches. With a monthly pledge of one dollar a month, you are helping to keep the show going, and you’ll be part of the group that helps me develop questions for upcoming interviews.

I’d like to thank some of the Patreon pokes, folk – Patreon pokes, Patreon pokes, Patreon folks? The Patreon folks, that’s what I wanted to say – the Patreon folks personally, so to Liz, Amanda, Meryl, John, and Sarah, thank you for being part of the podcast community.

Are there other ways to support the podcast? Absolutely! Sing along if you know the words: leave a review wherever you listen; they help a lot. You can also tell a friend, subscribe, recommend us by word of mouth, whatever. If I am in your eardrums, thank you for hanging out with me each week. It is an honor to talk to you, you know, about books every time that you turn on the podcast.

At the end of the show, I will have information about the music that you are listening to, I will have a preview about what’s coming up on Smart Bitches this coming week, and I have a pretty terrible joke – and I promise I won’t forget the joke. I promise. I also will have links in the show notes to some of the things we talk about during this episode, and of course I will have links to all of the books that we mentioned; there are many.

So without any further delay, let us do this podcast interview with Big Gay Fiction’s Jeff and Will.

[music]

Jeff Adams: I’m Jeff Adams. I am the co-host of the Big Gay Fiction Podcast, and I’m also an author of gay romance, as well as a gay YA cyber thriller series.

Will Knauss: And I am Will Knauss. I am this handsome guy’s husband. I co-host the Big Gay Fiction Podcast, and I am also an author.

Sarah: Fabulous! Thank you for doing this!

Jeff: Absolutely! We are very happy to be here with you.

Sarah: I am so excited that you agreed, so thank you. Now, I was a guest on your show, and so now that you’re a guest on my show, I can’t ask you the same questions, so I have a whole other set of questions, but I wanted to ask if you would be comfortable telling me, how did you guys meet one another?

Will: Well, the short and pithy answer –

Jeff: [Laughs]

Will: – would be, we met doing community theater; we were in the same show. The show turned out to be terrible, but the fact is that we met each other, and during the run of that particular terrible show, I ended up asking Jeff out on a friend date. I was, I was – [laughs] – I was praying and hoping that he would make the first move, but that never happened –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Will: – so I, I took the, I took the bold step to ask him out to go to a movie, and we’ve just been, you know, we’ve live in, been living our Happily Ever After ever since.

Jeff: Yep. That is exactly right. And I was, I was clueless to his overtures, so that’s why I never made the first move.

[Laughter]

Sarah: Yeah. I’ve, I’ve, I’ve heard a lot of, a lot of romances where one party is like, wait, that was flirting? Is that what that was? Oh!

Will: [Laughs] That’s exactly what happened.

Jeff: Yep.

Sarah: I don’t, I don’t know how to do that.

Jeff: [Laughs] Yeah, but it all worked out, ‘cause twenty-, twenty- – this is the math part of the show – what are we, twenty-three years on?

Will: We’ve been together a million billion years.

Jeff: [Laughs]

Will: Yeah, that first date was in 1995, folks.

Sarah: Aw! And now you’re married and very happy.

Will: Yes, we are.

Jeff: Absolutely.

Sarah: And you’re readers and authors, and you host a podcast together.

Will: Mm-hmm!

Sarah: Did that last one cause any strain? ‘Cause I think if I tried to host a podcast with my husband, it would be very, very tricky.

Jeff: I don’t think it did. I think we, we, we sorted out the, what we wanted to do and then figured out how to do it. I’m the techy, so all that stuff fell on me to figure out: how does one podcast?

Sarah: Yeah. That’s a big question.

Jeff: But I think we just fell into it. The co-host chemistry kind of came pretty easily, ‘cause we, I mean, we talk to each other all the time anyway, so – [laughs] – and we’re talking about our favorite thing! You know –

Sarah: Yep.

Jeff: – books and movies and stuff, so.

Sarah: So what led you guys to reading romance?

Will: I think, for me personally, I was a reader growing up. I consumed all kinds of media. I loved, I loved television, and I loved movies, and I loved books. When I graduated high school and, you know, when you’re twenty-something, you know, sometimes you fall away from the things you love because you’re busy trying to adult. [Laughs]

Sarah: Yeah.

Will: And failing. But – [laughs] –

Sarah: Yep.

Will: – which was, you know, my case. But eventually I came back to reading, and specifically when it comes to gay romance, I think both of us sort of edged closer to the genre by reading some of the gay classics like, you know, Armistead Maupin and Tales of the City and Patricia Nell Warren’s The Front Runner. And then in, around 2000 – remember Y2K? Aw – there was a, Kensington Publishing was actually doing a really nice job of publishing gay fiction, and most of the stories around that time had relationships and sort of romantic subplots, so I think that was, at the time, the closest Big Five publishing was getting to gay romance, so we were getting closer to the subgenre there –

Jeff: Mm-hmm.

Will: – and eventually we discovered the gay romance subgenre itself, thanks in no small part to Amazon and Kindle, which made reading, you know, so much more easy and fun and –

Jeff: [Laughs]

Will: – portable and yeah.

Jeff: Yeah, I think the romance thing I got into because of Will. He put these books kind of in front of me. The Front Runner for sure. The Peter & Charlie trilogy by Gordon Merrick was one of those first ones, and for a time, you were even reading and subscribing to Harlequin –

Will: Mm-hmm.

Jeff: – certain Harlequin series, and I would read some of those. And, and who doesn’t like to read a Happily Ever After? I mean, seriously, it’s, I read a broad array of stuff still, but I think, the romance is the higher, the highest percentage now, but yeah, Happily Ever After, it’s great!

Sarah: So what are your favorite subgenres in romance? What are the things that you gravitate towards reading?

Jeff: I have, I love friends-to-lovers and even enemies-friends-to-lovers. Will’s got me really turned onto forced proximity, which I know he’ll mention in his list. And I’ve gotten really into romantic suspense lately. I went down that rabbit hole because of Layla Rayne. She is completely the reason, and I, I can’t get enough of it.

Sarah: What do you like about it?

Jeff: There’s something about watching the romance unfold against this really difficult scenario –

Sarah: Yeah.

Jeff: – that’s playing out and how these two, how the two characters can still find a way to connect with each other, build their, their relationship, while the world is trying to fall apart around them. And it’s, it’s just amazing.

Sarah: I can’t read suspense because of the violent elements. I do love watching a romance and a mystery unfold, ‘cause it’s like forced mental proximity. They have to be together to figure out this puzzle, and then there’s all these feels that get in the way? And that’s the best part.

Jeff: Mm-hmm?

Sarah: So what about, what about you, sir? What are your favorites?

Will: For me, I think over the years I’ve found that I will always be willing to read a story with, as Jeff mentioned, forced proximity, i.e., being snowed in in a mountain cabin. I could read those stories all day and all night. [Laughs] I also really like marriage and/or relationships of convenience; those are always really interesting to me. And over the last couple of years, I’ve discovered I really appreciate a good bodyguard character and the sort of situation that arises from that. But here, here’s the thing: everyone who’s listening right now, Sarah is really charming and really wonderful and a complete professional, and before we hopped on this interview she sent us a list of questions, and one of the questions was about tropes, and so this got me thinking about, you know, what my catnip was, and I came to the realization that while these tropes are pretty specific and different, they all have a, a certain core thing in common. When it comes to forced proximity, the characters are, are forced to be together for, you know, whatever reason that the story, you know, needs.

Sarah: Right.

Will: And they get to know one another and then fall in love, but the, the forced scenario is eventually going to end. I mean, if you’re snowed in, eventually the weather’s going to clear up, and they’re going to have to come to terms with what their feelings and relationship mean when they return to, you know, their real world. And actually, the same is true of marriage of convenience. I mean, if you ask someone to pretend to be your fiancé for, like, a weekend or whatever, that’s essentially going to be a business relationship, and that has a ticking clock on that, and at the end of the weekend where you’ve been pretending to be in love, you have to come to terms with what those emotions that you’re feeling are. And especially in this particular trope, I always think it’s interesting is the, the characters end up having real feelings, but the question is, does that other person, you know, have real feelings as well? And especially in bodyguard-type romances, it’s also a professional relationship, and one character is there to protect or, and solve an issue that the other character has. There’s also a ticking clock on that; I mean, if he’s a good bodyguard, he’s going to solve the problem eventually –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Will: – and so what does that mean?

Sarah: If he sucks at it, story’s over.

[Laughter]

Will: So when, when the threat has been neutralized, what does that mean for the romance? They have to come to terms with what that means. So what each of those subgenres all have in common is, is that eventually there’s a, there’s a moment where the, all of the characters have to really examine what it is they’re, they’re feeling, so.

Jeff: Mm-hmm.

Will: I don’t know. I, I never really thought of it in those terms, but I, apparently that’s my thing. [Laughs]

Sarah: You know, I, I love – love – love, love, love listening to other people talk about their catnip, because I always learn something about my own catnip. Like, I love forced proximity?

Will: Mm-hmm?

Sarah: I love forced proximity that’s not dangerous, though. Like a snowstorm: as long as you’ve got, you know, food, water, fireplace is good, it’s just snow. As long as you don’t have to go out in it, no one’s in danger, all the, everyone’s inside, it’s –

Will: Exactly. [Laughs]

Sarah: – it’s just, it’s, it’s not like it’s a hurricane or, you know, a tornado. It’s just snow; it’s just going to be in the way. As long as you’ve got, you know, everything you need for the life-ing it, life essentials, you know, you have all this free time! But what you’re describing, what we were just describing made me realize that what happens is the emotions that develop in this sort of isolated space, there’s nothing else going on except for the issue that’s keeping you stuck together and the development of your feelings, and then your new feelings that developed in a sort of isolation have to be then fit into your real life, and the tension continues by trying to figure out, how do those things fit into the real world with the rest of your life that you manage?

Will: Yeah. And I think that’s –

Sarah: It’s not something that developed side by side.

Will: Right, exactly, and so I think that –

Sarah: Oh, I’m excited now! I want to go read more books!

[Laughter]

Will: So, yeah, I think, I think that just, that question is really interesting. It’s like, what, what happens when you have to examine those feelings and then fit them into your life that was, you know, going on before the snowstorm or the bodyguard incident? [Laughs]

Sarah: Yes. Before you needed a bodyguard –

Will: Exactly.

Sarah: – who looked like Kevin Costner or whomever else.

[Laughter]

Sarah: So when you look at – the other thing I love about looking at your catnip is when, as a reader, for example, I am trying to regularly interrogate the default choices that I make to broaden what I read, to make sure that I’m reading in a more representative fashion, that I’m discovering people who aren’t what are most easily put in front of me by publicists and algorithms, and, you know, if you do what you’ve always done, you get what you always get? So interrogating my, my catnip also makes me think, okay, why? Why do I like this? What is it about this that, that works for me? And when you’re talking about a genre that has so much kink in it, I think interrogating your, your, basically your turn-ons in the privacy of your own imagination is an incredibly empowering thing to do, because, you know, kink and sexuality are not treated with great deference and respect, generally speaking. So when you get to examine what, what, what you like, you also learn a lot about, you know, what are the things that really work for you? And for me, for, personally, examining my emotions in a very specific space where I can then go spend my energy elsewhere after I’m done examining my emotions in that little space? That makes all the sense in the world. Like, that sounds great. [Laughs] I would love to do that on a regular basis.

So what are some of the books that really embody the things that you like? What are some books that you would reread anytime?

Jeff: I have a, I have a list. [Laughs]

Sarah: This is why I like you! That’s why I send, that why I send questions in advance, because if I send that, if I ask that question with no prep, people’ll be like, uh, book? I read a book? What, what was it?

Jeff: [Laughs] I read a book yesterday! Yeah.

Sarah: Yeah.

Jeff: I read a lot of YA, since I also tend to write it, and Becky Albertalli’s Simon vs. the Homo Sapiens Agenda is just brilliant, and I, I’ve reread that a couple times. It’s a good love story. It’s, it’s wonderful how Simon and Blue make their connection through email and eventually pull that through to the real world. But it’s also a beautiful coming-out story in a lot of ways for the modern times, and yeah, I just, I can’t get enough of it. Becky Albertalli overall, I can’t get enough of.

Sarina Bowen’s The Understatement of the Year is one of my all-time favorites in the male/male genre. The story of Graham and Rikker can make me emotional at the drop of a hat. Like, I just had goosebumps saying that? [Laughs]

Sarah: Aw!

Jeff: And I do reread that one occasionally as well. And really, anything T. J. Klune. I’ve become such a fan of his. The way that he can tell incredibly different stories and put these wonderful love stories smack in the middle of them. I think Wolfsong is brilliant, and as soon as Ravensong can get to audio, I will be diving in, ‘cause I can’t, I can’t fathom reading that without the audio component, ‘cause Wolfsong’s was so good.

Sarah: So do you listen and read at the same time, or do you listen and then read when you can’t listen anymore?

Jeff: It depends. Usually my thing is to have a book that I’m listening to and a book that I’m reading.

Sarah: Yeah, that’s what I do.

Jeff: If I’m particularly eager to get through something because it’s like, I need to finish this, ‘cause I need to know?

Sarah: Yeah.

Jeff: I might go back and forth in the same book bet-, you know, using that Whispersync tech.

Sarah: I love that invention so much.

Jeff: Yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s such a – you never knew you needed it until you had it. [Laughs]

Sarah: Right? So when I used to live in New Jersey, Audible is located in Newark, and at one point I went to some evening thing – I think it was, like, like, the movie night, and you can’t drop your kids off, you’ve got to stay, so I stayed, and I had my Kindle because I wasn’t going to watch Ice Age for the nine thousandth time, and this guy sits down next to me, and he’s like, oh, is that a Kindle? And I’m prepared for the yes, and this is how you use it, and he goes, I work for Audible, but I haven’t really seen the Kindle, the new Kindles yet, because I’ve been so focused on the Whispersync-ing, and I’m like, excuse me?

Jeff: [Laughs]

Sarah: And I’m like, how? How did you do that? And I asked all these questions. He’s like, I can’t answer that; I can’t answer that. I’m like, okay, so just explain to me this one thing: how do you, how do you sync to the word? Like, how do you stop at a word, and then the Kindle knows where the page is? So he basically explained that it’s like, it’s like a, like an anchor tag in HTML? There’s an anchor tag on every word in the Audible –

Jeff: Wow.

Sarah: – in the audio track, and so there’s, that layer connects to the e-book, and I was like, this is the greatest moment of my life: I get to nerd out at the guy who invented this incredibly useful feature? It’s so great!

Will: That’s amazing! Yeah.

Sarah: Isn’t that cool? One thing I’ve noticed with my own sons, who are thir-, almost thirteen and eleven, is they like to listen and read at the same time? They have, like, this total immersive experience, which I find fascinating. ‘Cause I’m like you: I have to switch back and forth.

Jeff: Well, Will used to do the, the read and listen at the same time.

Sarah: Oh, you did! You’re like that too? That’s so cool!

Will: Yeah, sometimes. I think it’s helpful when you’re on the treadmill to kind of listen and read along with Whispersync.

Sarah: Oh my gosh, you just blew my mind.

Will: That can help keep you focused on the story. At least does for me sometimes. I find that that works really well. But I thought –

Sarah: You just blew my mind!

Will: – I think it’s – I’m, I’m listening to you both describe your, your multi-reading experiences, and I’ve, so far, I’ve discovered that I have a  very difficult time doing that. I’m, I’m a one-book-at-a-time kind of guy. I, I just, yeah, I just can’t focus on more than one story; I get confused really easily. And I think, well, part of that might be is that I, I really enjoy contemporary romance, and that tends to be all that I read, so if I’m reading two at the same time, I can get, you know, Joe and Mac and Joey and Mark mixed up.

Jeff: [Laughs]

Sarah: Yeah, I, I, yeah, I understand.

Will: So, yeah, yeah. So I’m a, a one-book-at-a-time kind of guy, and I think, and generally I’m not a big re-reader, simply because I’m kind of a slow reader as well, and there are just too many books! [Laughs]

Sarah: Yeah.

Will: I don’t have time to be reading them more than once. I, there are, there have been a handful of times where I have gone back to a book if I’m looking to either experience something specific again for whatever reason, like if I know a, a book kind of hit a particular nerve for me when it comes to a specific trope and I want to explore that a little bit more, I might go back to a book, or perhaps if a book just came out on audio and I want to experience that media in a new way I might do that, but generally, no, I don’t reread.

Sarah: That’s fascinating. I do understand the feeling of having so many books to read, though.

Will: Yeah. [Laughs]

Sarah: Like –

Will: All the books! They’re all so good!

Sarah: Oh my God, and there’s so many every new, every day there’s a new book.

Will: Exactly.

Jeff: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: So what brought you to podcasting? What led you to start the Big Gay Fiction Podcast, which, by the way, is, like, the best name for a show.

Will: [Laughs]

Sarah: There’s no doubt what it is; it is exactly what it says on the tin!

Jeff: It is exactly on brand, right?

Sarah: Right? It is extremely on brand, and it is just, it’s adorably awesome, so it just, well done. From someone who can’t title things well, that’s brilliant.

Will: Well, I think for us, as with, like, ninety-nine percent of all other podcasters, we started a show simply because we enjoy listening to podcasts.

Sarah: Yep.

Will: We wanted to give it a try ourselves. I think when it comes to our show, the Big Gay Fiction Podcast, I think what it came down to is that, number one, we enjoy podcasts, and we thought, hey, why not give it a shot? And there’s sort of, there’s really not much else like us in the market, so there’s that aspect. And, and plus, the show, I mean, we would be talking about these books anyway, in our normal life –

Sarah: Right.

Will: – so why don’t we just, like, hop on the air and talk about it for an hour once a week? You know, why not? Plus, I think it was also, there’s the joy of doing it and talking about things that we love, but I also think part of it was a concerted effort to build a kind of platform for our future careers as authors. For those of you who are listening who are readers, several years ago the buzzword in Author Land was platform. That’s all you heard: platform this, platform that. You have to have an author platform or no one’s ever going to read you. And –

Sarah: And a brand –

Will: Yeah, the brand.

Sarah: – but also the brand sits on the platform. Yep, brand and platform.

Will: And so, so the podcast is a, an extension of what is essentially the Jeff and Will brand, and we’re hoping that people who listen to us every single week, number one, enjoy the same things that we talk about, but also I think that by listening to us every single week, they’ll think that, hey, those two guys know what they’re talking about –

Jeff: [Laughs]

Will: – and we’ll have, you know, cultivated some kind of authority within the, the gay romance genre, so hopefully they’ll think, they know what they’re talking about, and that will translate into, you know, they’ll write the kind of books I want to read as well.

Sarah: In terms of podcasting, what tips do you have for someone who is thinking of starting one? What, what have you found the most useful or sa-, what, what’s saved you the most time? I have to say, I’m very impressed with your scheduling software. That was brilliant.

Jeff: And you know, we actually found that because of another podcast that we listen to about podcasting.

Sarah: No!

Jeff: They had that scheduling software as a, as a sponsor, and I jumped all over that, ‘cause the worst thing ever was, well, I’m in California, and that’ll be this time zone conversion for you, and I can do these times, and – [laughs]

Sarah: Yes. I just, I’ve, I’ve done a couple recordings with people in Australia, and it’s like, oh man, I’m going to screw this up! This is math. [Laughs]

Jeff and Will: Yeah.

Will: That, that one piece of –

Jeff: Yeah.

Will: – of software has saved us, you know, many a gray hair.

Jeff: Yep. I think, in terms of other tips, if you’re going to try to take this plunge – and we encourage everybody to take the plunge –

Will: Yes, please!

Jeff: – there’s plenty of space out there in Podcast Land –

Sarah: Yes.

Jeff: – kind of know your Why. Like, why do you want to do it?

Sarah: Yes.

Jeff: Because it’s not a light time commitment.

Sarah: The devil you say!

[Laughter]

Jeff: I mean, I don’t know how it works for you, Sarah, but I think for, for, for me, since I’m the producer of the show, it’s about –

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Jeff: – a five-hour to – at minimum in the week, it’s a five-hour endeavor –

Sarah: Easily, easily.

Jeff: – to get the show out.

Sarah: Oh yeah. I think it was Linda Holmes on NPR, on Pop Culture Happy Hour, who said that she thought 2017 would be the peak year of, hey, remember that podcast I started? I had no idea how much work it was?

[Laughter]

Jeff: Yeah. Yep, very true!

Sarah: That was, I stopped in the middle of the street and was like, yes! It’s so true! [Laughs]

Jeff: But I think if you know your Why, you’re a good way down the road, and for us, the Why was we want to talk about books, and we want to talk to authors, and we think this is a thing to do that’s not out there in the world right now.

Sarah: Yep.

Jeff: And also –

Sarah: Definitely not in terms of covering gay and male/male romance.

Jeff: Right, ‘cause there’s just a handful of us out there that do that. And then, I, you also, I think, have to look at just studying up on it a little bit. Understand this, the equipment you need, which can be –

Sarah: Yep.

Jeff: – very minimal to start. We started, you know, the, the equipment we have now, almost three years later, is very different from the equipment we had when we started.

Sarah: Yep.

Jeff: And this is a huge one for me: make sure you understand the commitment you’re making to your audience. If you’re going to be there every week, be there every week.

Sarah: Yes, that’s, that’s a big one.

Jeff: Or, and if you have to step out, try to at least say, I’m going to be gone for two weeks, but I mean, for us, it’s always been record in advance, you know.

Sarah: Oh yeah. Oh yeah, there’ll be weeks where I’ll do three or four recordings in a week, and I get to the weekend and I’m like, why am I so tired? Oh, I did, like, four interviews! [Laughs] That’s why I’m tired.

Jeff: Yeah.

Sarah: But then you’re frontloading your content, which is the same for a blog, which is a skill I learned early too, yeah.

Jeff: Mm-hmm. For anybody who wants to know more on podcasting, I will – we did a, a panel at, well, a presentation at RT in Atlanta two years ago on podcasting.

Sarah: Yeah.

Jeff: And, and what to think about when you start, what, what you need, and all that stuff, and those materials are on our website.

Sarah: Ooh! Will you send me a link so I can put it in the show notes, please?

Jeff: I will absolutely do that! And we, yeah. Come –

Sarah: Thank you!

Jeff: – become a podcaster!

Sarah: Yes. I was listening to – you’ll never guess – I was listening to a podcast called Simplify, which is from a company called Blinkist that takes nonfiction business books and compresses them into little, like, tiny little summaries that you can read on your phone, scrolling through, like, six pages?

Jeff: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: So Simplify is great because they do a lot of in-depth interviews with the writers of the books whose books they are summarizing on their site, and they talked to – goodness, I can’t remember who it was, but the host Caitlin Schiller said that, that she suspects that the reason why podcasts are partially so popular right now is it’s like eavesdropping on a conversation, and we’re, we are by, you know, just programmed to be very nosy about what other people are doing, so we’re all eavesdropping on each other. I really like this public eavesdropping as we talk about romance all the time.

Will: [Laughs]

Jeff: Yeah, I hadn’t thought of it that way, but that’s a, that’s a really good way to look at it. And I think that’s one of the things for shows like yours and for shows like ours who bring authors to the forefront: there are so many readers who don’t necessarily have a bookstore that has events, especially with what they’re actually reading sometimes?

Sarah: Yeah. If they have a bookstore, it’s probably not going to be like, and here’s a whole panel of male/male romance, or here’s a whole panel of romance, and they might not even have a bookstore!

Jeff: Yeah. Unless you happen to live near The Ripped Bodice, you’re not getting that.

[Laughter]

Sarah: Mm-mm.

Jeff: And they can’t get to a conference, and they can’t get to, you know, RT or whatever it’s called now, and –

Sarah: Book-, Booklovers Con.

Jeff: We let them hear from authors.

Sarah: Yes. Which is –

Will: I think that’s interesting. I think what our show and, and what Smart Podcast is able to do is give enthusiastic readers access to authors and academics that they wouldn’t have otherwise. I think earlier, when Jeff was talking about understanding your Why –

Sarah: Such a good piece of advice.

Will: – when we started out, we certainly, you know, hadn’t quite ironed that out for ourselves.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Will: As the podcast evolved, we really quickly became an interview show, and that was never our intention initially, but we found that we enjoyed talking to authors on, you know, about their books and various subjects and that our listeners enjoyed that as well. And I think one of the Whys that eventually evolved for our show is that, I think it’s really important for a subgenre that deals with marginalized people, I think it’s very important for the authors of, of gay romance to not only have their voices heard and understood, but that it’s essentially archived for posterity.

Sarah: Yes.

Will: I, I have an interest in pulp fiction, not only the writers who wrote pulp paperbacks in the ‘60s but the authors who wrote for the pulp magazines in, like, the ‘20s and ‘30s.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Will: I think the, the stuff that they were able to create was fascinating, but who those people were in most cases is kind of lost to time. We don’t know anything about most of those authors. So I think one of the nice bonuses from our show is that we’re archiving, you know, what these writers are experiencing and feeling as they’re creating their fiction. So I think, hopefully, in, you know, whatever small way, we’re doing our part for gay history.

Jeff: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: I think that’s definitely the case. And that, and also that you are – there’s a lot of talk about, you know, own voices and representing –

Will: Mm-hmm.

Jeff: Yeah.

Sarah: – own voices in writing. You’re giving, you’re giving your – ooh, if you’re playing Buzzword Bingo, get your pen! – you are giving your platform to someone to speak about themselves in their own voice, and I think that really cannot be understated, how, how very important that it is, because it’s one thing for me to summarize what someone else says; it’s another thing for me to say, tell me all the things you would like to say, and then, like, letting them run. You know, that, that, that is much more important than I think people realize when it comes to even just creating a digital archive.

Jeff: Yeah, we were fascinated by, you recently had an archivist on your show.

Sarah: Yes, from the Browne Popular Culture Library. That was, that was –

Will: Oh my God, that was, like, the best episode ever!

Jeff: Yeah.

Sarah: Oh, thank you! I had the best time doing that interview! When you were talking about your Why, a lot of the time my Why is, I would deeply like to listen to this person nerd out. I hope maybe six other people would like to listen to this person nerd out with me!

[Laughter]

Sarah: And that’s how a lot of interviews happen. I’m interested in this; I surely cannot be alone! I had so much fun with that interview. It was fascinating!

Will: That was fascinating.

Jeff: Yeah.

Sarah: And I particularly love that because I had that, I had, the Browne Popular Culture librarian – damn it, brain! Come on now! You can do better than that. Ughhh! Come on now, Sarah. Come on, Sarah’s Brain.

Jeff: I wasn’t even going to try to come up with his name. [Laughs]

Sarah: Dude. Dude, dude, dude, dude, dude. Ohhh!

Will: Sarah, what’s fascinating is that recently you’ve had a string of super-duper smart people with, like, Ph.D.s and stuff, and normally I would be like, you know, ugh, academics, literature, bleah, and I would, like, completely ignore that?

Sarah: Uh-huh?

Will: But those interviews have been some of the best you’ve had recently. They’re really fascinating.

Jeff: Yeah. That trio –

Sarah: Thank you!

Jeff: That trio you had on who were the academics, that was brilliant!

Will: Yeah.

Sarah: Which, which trio? I’ve done a couple of academics. You mean Dr. Cottom and Dr. Baker?

Jeff: Maybe?

Sarah: ‘Cause that was the one we were talking about paranormal romance and Hallmark movies. [Laughs]

Jeff: Yes, it was that one. Yeah.

Sarah: Which was one of my favorite interviews!

Jeff: ‘Cause I, I’m, I’m a huge fan of the Hallmark movie; we both are. Like, Countdown to Christmas starts in, like, three weeks, and we are all over it.

[Laughter]

Sarah: And when I was listening to Dr. Cottom talk about how she reads them, I was, I was just like, I couldn’t even describe my face at that moment. I was just like, please keep talking, please keep talking; this is amazing!

Jeff: It was brilliant! [Laughs]

Sarah: It was just so – I would, I want, I want there to be a Mystery Science Theater of her watching Hallmark movies.

Jeff: Oh my God, that would be –

Sarah: Like, if she could just do academic commentary on the Hallmark movies, I would be the most happy person!

[Laughter]

Sarah: And just the, the way that she looks at it from a, sort of a thirty-thousand-foot view of, like, what, what are the things that they all have in common, like when they find their true selves they all wear chiffon and flowy skirts – [laughs] – and it’s so universally true! Okay, so, Bad Sarah’s Brain googled the librarian I spoke to; I’m really sorry, Steve. It’s Steve Ammidown. I knew it was Steve, and then I was like, well, I’ve got to have his last name too. So Steve Ammidown on Twitter runs the Browne Popular Culture Library Twitter feed and will start connecting people with archives that he has, because they have a significant collection of just stuff from Romantic Times and the history of Romantic Times. So somebody was trying to put together a list of all the winners of Romantic Times awards, and there wasn’t one single archive where that was, but he had most of the pieces. And I’m like, it’s so cool that, you know, twenty years ago, there wouldn’t be that much study of romance fiction, and now, not only is there study of romance fiction, but there’s studies of very specific niches within romance fiction, so, like, you can take a super-deep nerdy dive into romantic suspense featuring characters in a particular state in the particular division of law enforcement, and there will be, like, fifty people in that niche with you like, yes, this is great! It’s so awesome! There are times when the internet makes me sad, and then there are times when the internet makes me extremely happy.

[Laughter]

Sarah: Please tell me all the things about being authors. What led you to start writing, or did you start writing and then start podcasting and reading? Like, did that all happen at the same time? And please tell me about your books.

Jeff: For me, the writing started way young. Like, I think my first published thing was, like, in the sixth-grade literary journal or some such. [Laughs] But I finally – and this, this is because of Will sticking this stuff in my face –

Will: [Laughs] I’m an enabler.

Jeff: He is an enabler! [Laughs]

Sarah: Is he, is he an expensive person to know?

Jeff: He’s actually not.

[Laughter]

Jeff: But he is an enabler.

Sarah: Yeah.

Jeff: And I finally took the plunge, I want to say it was 2009 – I should have looked up my own timeline better – that I took the plunge to try to write a story for the Dreamspinner Advent Calendar. So, you know, that’s a short story about ten to fifteen thousand words, and I wrote it, and I kind of liked it. It was, you know, not a bad first thing, and I sent it in, and they were like, well, we don’t want that for the advent calendar, but we’d like to publish it standalone.

Sarah: [Gasps] Yay!

Jeff: Like, wow! Okay, that’s awesome! And I messed around with some short stories a little bit more over the years, and then took the plunge. It was like six years to write the first novel – [laughs] – ‘cause I didn’t know what I was doing.

Sarah: Yep.

Jeff: I’m still not sure I totally know what I’m doing, but it’s, it’s easier to write them now. And unfortunately, I have a weird backlist, ‘cause I, I messed around with YA and New Adult for a while and have a trilogy of that material, then I focused a little bit more on romance, and Will and I actually co-wrote a book this year for Dreamspinner’s Dreamspun line called The Hockey Player’s Heart, so that was awesomely fun. But then I also went off on a YA tangent to write these YA cyber thrillers with a, a, a gay high school kid who, like, plays hockey and is a computer genius and happens to be a covert agent on the side! So – [laughs] –

Sarah: As you do!

Jeff: You know, I’m a little all over the place, but I think my true – I love writing the romance, I like getting people their happy endings, ‘cause that’s just a lot of fun, but, yeah, then there’s that YA side that I can’t really – I, I don’t know why the cyber thrillers were so interesting, but I’ve had the best time writing them.

Sarah: I mean, it’s like, it’s like a gay Agent Cody Banks!

Jeff: Little bit, yeah. There, there’s some Cody Banks in there. I love the Disney series Kim Possible?

Sarah: Yes, Kim Possible is a brilliant, brilliant model.

Jeff: And, and part of where this series came from, we were at GayRomLit a few years back, three or four years ago now, and someone there, on their phone, had a Kim, the Kim Possible ringtone, like her ringtone that her communicator would always go with?

Sarah: Yes! [Laughs]

Jeff: And that was all part of the formation of this particular series. [Laughs] It’s like – [gasps] – who is that? I never found out who it was, so whoever you are, you, you helped me make this series, but –

Sarah: I don’t know; I think it’s fascinating the way that there’s so much nostalgia reboot going on, but sometimes the nostalgia reboots are redone in a way that is incredibly inclusive and interesting and modern? Like for example, my younger son is a super, diehard Power Rangers kid. Like, Power Rangers, entirely his jam, and the Power Rangers are, like, Menudo. Like, every, every new incarnation there’s a whole new cast of kids, but it’s always been incredibly inclusive, so of course we went to see the, the Power Rangers movie, which is as campy and glorious as you expected it to be, but one of the characters – I want to say it was the pink or the yellow ranger; I think it was the yellow ranger – it was played by a, a recording artist who I love named Becky G, and she’s a lesbian in the, in the movie, and part of the problem of her coming out is that she’s also a superhero, and her parents aren’t particularly inclined to believe either of those things.

Jeff: [Laughs]

Sarah: And so there, there’s this conflict of having a secret identity and a secret life that applies to so many young people in so many ways, and seeing that rebooted and brought into, like, into a new incarnation of that same sort of conflict is so great! So the idea that there’s, like, a gay, hockey-playing, secret agent high school student? How has that not been optioned? Like, does Dis-, is, does Disney know?

Will: [Laughs]

Jeff: Maybe they’ll hear you say this on the show, and decide –

Sarah: Hello, Disney!

Jeff: – to go for it, right?

Sarah: [Laughs]

Jeff: ‘Cause yeah, certainly one of the big problems for Theo is the fact that he can’t tell his boyfriend anything about what’s going on! [Laughs]

Sarah: Yeah, right? And people know when you’re keeping a secret from them, and then they’re going to assume it’s, like, something not what it is.

Jeff: Exactly.

Sarah: Yeah. [Laughs] The, the whole secret agent thing is probably not anything that anyone would guess.

Jeff: So talk about your writing background.

Will: Well, unlike Jeff, I’m still essentially a baby author. The only book I have to my particular credit is our co-written book, The Hockey Player’s Heart, which I enjoyed doing. So, yeah, I’m still a, a bit of a newb when it comes to the author game. What, I’m kind of a weird book nerd in that I’m endlessly fascinated by all aspects of the, the literary process. I will, you know, eagerly gobble up any book you give me on the, the craft of writing fiction, but I’m equally fascinated by the production process of, you know, editing and making a book better. I love, you know, learning about different modern techniques of marketing and how to release a book and how to find readers, so that’s – I don’t know. The, the writing itself is the hardest part for me.

Sarah: You’re like the book tech guy!

Will: [Laughs]

Jeff: He really is. I mean, if I need to know something as I’m, like, getting ready to put a book out or something about tropes or something about craft, I can go to him, and he’s either got a book that he can put in front of me and like, read this chapter, or tell me the bit of knowledge I need.

Sarah: Yep. ‘Cause the writing part of writing and the business part of writing are very different!

Jeff: Oh yeah.

Will: Yeah, they are. For us who are so immersed in not – I’m, I’m using the universal we – [laughs] – you and I, Sarah.

Sarah: The royal we? The, the royal we, yes.

Will: We’re, we’re –

Sarah: People like us.

Will: – we’re both reading enthusiasts, but we’re also hyperaware of what goes into getting a book into readers’ hands, so we understand not only the joy of reading a great romance, but we also know that there, there’s a certain art to marketing, whether, you know, it comes to advertising or doing a book cover or, or anything like that, so I think –

Sarah: Yeah.

Will: – doing the blog the way that you do and the podcasts the way that we do, I think it gives us a, a more rounded understanding of what goes into creating a book in our particular genre? I think – which, I don’t know – I don’t think that makes us, you know, better than the average reader, but I think it makes us more ho-, holistically appreciative of what authors do.

Sarah: I can say with absolute certainty that writing my Hanukkah novella made me a better reviewer and better reader, because I –

Will: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – understood even more how hard it is –

Will: Yeah.

Sarah: – to write a story that satisfied me as a reader –

Will: Right.

Sarah: – and I love the story I wrote. Like, I will reread it sometimes, ‘cause I have this great gift of forgetting my own writing, so I’ll read my own writing and be like, I wrote, I wrote this? Wow! Okay! Nice job, Past Sarah! And also, do you remember anything ever? So when I can write a, a, something that works for me as a reader, I have a much deeper appreciation of how hard that is. It’s really difficult!

Will: Mm-hmm.

Jeff: Yeah. I would a hundred percent agree with that.

Sarah: Right? It’s super hard! Tell me about co-writing, because I am fascinated. How did you end up co-writing a story? And tell me about your book, please. Pretty please with sugar on top. Tell me all the things!

Jeff: [Laughs]

Will: Do you want to tackle this one, or? [Laughs]

Sarah: Oh, are you co-writing your answer? You’re co-writing your answer right now. This is amazing!

Will: I think we have two very different perspectives on the experience.

Sarah: [Laughs] Oh really!

Jeff: We do. Let’s do the easy part, talk about the book itself first. [Laughs]

Sarah: Sorry, and then as the second half, and we will never do this again.

Jeff: The Hockey Player’s Heart is a second-chances story between an NHL hockey player named Caleb Carter who has been injured and comes home to his small New York hometown to rehab and get away from the New York City media, and he, his sister is the principal of the high school and ropes him into an event where his first crush, Aaron, is a school teacher, and these two come back into seeing one another and sorting out if their feelings from being sixteen might still be there and what that could mean, since Aaron’s a small-town school teacher and Caleb is the hockey superstar.

Sarah: So you have celebrity versus, you know, average person plus small town plus athlete – okay, yeah, there’s a lot of delicious tropes in there.

Will: [Laughs]

Sarah: It’s, it – yeah! Okay! So what led you to write this?

Jeff: She wrote the tropes so much better than I would’ve ever done it.

[Laughter]

Sarah: Well, it’s, you know, it’s part of my job. Part of tagging reviews – which I’m not as good at as Amanda is for, by a, by a long shot – part of tagging reviews is being able to say very quickly, okay, here’s what this is. Once you speak, once you speak the language of tropes, it’s really easy to say, oh, you like this; here are all of the things that you should look for.

Will: Yeah.

Sarah: So what led you to co-writing a book? And it sounds like you’re like, and we will never do this again!

Jeff: I don’t think it’s never. I, I –

Sarah: Okay.

Jeff: We had gotten –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Jeff: My perspective on it is, like, we love the Dreamspinner Dreamspun Desires category romance line. That evolved into us wanting to write one of those together. I think Will’s very much the category guy, so he understood, in my view, what needed to be in that book and the things we needed to hit and the tropes that we should play with, and frankly, I was excited, I was excited to write with him, and I hope that we do do it again at some point. ‘Cause it was a lot of fun plotting that book and working our way through that book, and our process was different from other co-writtens that I’ve heard, but everybody’s co-writing process is so different.

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Jeff: Like, I would first draft it, and then he would do the cleanup.

Sarah: Yep.

Jeff: And certainly one of the hiccups that happened was our edits on that book came back at the same time edits came back for one of my YA books, and we were on the same timeline to get them done. [Laughs]

Sarah: Oh gosh!

Jeff: So I really had to leave him doing the edits, and I could consult on the edits, but I couldn’t do the edits. So that certainly added to some of the stress of the book. But I think –

Sarah: That is a lot.

Jeff: I will say that I’m really proud of it, and now I will let him talk, and he can tell you his perspective on the whole thing.

[Laughter]

Will: Well, first let me say I’m genuinely proud of the book as well. I think it turned out far better than either of us could have really expected.

Jeff: Yeah.

Will: I think what Jeff was mentioning, especially when it came to the editorial process, I think going through editorial certainly made the book, like, infinitely better.

Jeff: Mm-hmm.

Will: It’s so much better, but that was really difficult for me to go through essentially all by myself, you know, my very first time, so I associate a lot of stress with that book, you know, me personally. I, I don’t think, you know, if an average reader picked up that book and read it, you know, they’re certainly not going to see that, but I have a certain, I have a certain emotion attached to that book, so I have, I have feelings about it that have nothing to do with, you know, the final product. But like I said, I think the book turned out really, really well, and whether we will ever – [laughs] – write together again, I think there are certain processes that we’re going to have to kind of iron out and come to terms with, because I think, although while we’re certainly a happily married couple and we get along swimmingly in almost all aspects of life, I think our approaches to fiction are actually very different, and I think that’s something that we kind of uncovered –

Jeff: Mm-hmm.

Will: – while we wrote this book together, so that’s something that we have to, like, take into account on any future projects.

Sarah: It is a lot of, of emotional and mental and physical work to create a book, isn’t it?

Will: Yeah. Yeah. I think, whenever, before this experience, when you hear people, you know, writers specifically, talking about how a book is their baby, and they send it out into the world and all of that, I was just like, ugh! God, whatever! But now I kind of get it. It’s like, it’s like, ah! You’ve got a lot invested in that book, and I kind of understand where you’re coming from now when you talk about, you know, your baby and sending it out into the world.

Jeff: I think you finally understood to a deeper level how I was punched in the face by some of the edits I got back in my first YA book.

Will: Mm-hmm, yeah.

Jeff: Like, there was a, this series of edits from the developmental editor, and I’m like, why did, why did Harmony even buy this thing? Oh my God, I suck!

[Laughter]

Jeff: And, but by the time I got to the end of this, I’m like, God, this is such a better book now, and in subsequent books I’m like, bring on that editor! I want those! Bring ‘em!

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Jeff: But it was poor Will’s first time!

Will: Yeah.

[Laughter]

Jeff: Even though he’d seen me go through it, but you see all those changes on that, on the page, and you’re like, oh God!

Will: Yeah, you don’t realize until you’ve gone through it yourself. You just don’t know.

Sarah: [Laughs] Yeah. It’s, it’s an experience, isn’t it?

Jeff: Yeah, and it’s – but now I always tell, you know, if people are, there’s always that question that gets asked, you know: what’s your best advice? And I’m like, don’t fear your editor; they’re not there to hurt you. They’ll ultimately make it better! [Laughs]

Sarah: Oh, I remember when I got edits on one of my books, there were two editors who worked on it, and I thought every piece of text I looked at was going to have comment and track changes bubbles on it.

Jeff: Yeah.

Sarah: Like, I expected to just see commentary and bubbles down the sides of every – I open a cookbook; where are the edits? Where’s the track changes? Like, that was a default setting for a really long time, but I’ve come out of it as a much better writer.

Jeff: Yeah, for sure. I, I learn something every time I get edits.

Sarah: Oh absolutely, but it’s a brutal experience. It’s a lot of work.

Jeff: Yep.

Sarah: So what are you reading right now, and what are you writing right now?

Jeff: So in terms of reading right now, I have two books going, which is a surprise from our earlier conversation. [Laughs]

Sarah: Whoa!

Jeff: I’m currently listening to What If It’s Us? by Becky Albertalli and Adam Silvera, and I am loving it. It’s a romantic comedy between two, two teenagers in New York who have the best cute-meet ever in a post office.

Sarah: [Gasps] Ooh!

Jeff: [Laughs] And I’m also reading Someday by David Levithan, which is a sequel to his book Every Day, which was actually a movie earlier this year as well. I haven’t quite figured out what, what’s going to happen in that book, but I’m eager, ‘cause Someday is, or Every Day, rather, is one of my very favorite books ever.

Will: And for me, right now I’m reading a book called Score by A. E. Wasp. What’s interesting about this book is it came out last year, and it was part of essentially a shared universe by a group of independent authors. It’s from a series called Men of Hidden Greek, Creek, and all of the stories take place in a town called Hidden Creek; it’s in Texas. And Score by A. E. Wasp is essentially about a young guy who’s kind of at the end of his hockey career, and he’s crying, trying to decide what he’s going to do next, and because of reasons he ends up living with this super nice guy who’s a former marine, and he’s taking care of his four younger siblings, so it’s sweet and romantic, and in that very specific A. E. Wasp way, it’s dealing with some interesting, difficult, complicated issues, but in a light, enjoyable way, which is how I personally prefer my category romance!

Jeff: [Laughs]

Will: So, and I’m, what’s really interesting is that I’m about halfway through this particular book, and I’m, like, kicking myself right now because it’s like, oh my God, I’m loving this book so much! Why haven’t I read more of this author?

[music]

Sarah: And that brings us to the end of the episode. I want to thank Jeff and Will for hanging out with me. If you are curious about their books, their website, their podcast, their advice on starting a podcast, I have links to all of those things and much, much more at smartbitchestrashybooks.com/podcast in the show notes for this episode. I particularly have a link to their podcasting 101 resource, which is a great resource if you’re thinking about starting a podcast.

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At the beginning of the episode, I told you about the Sudio Nivå. I think that’s how you say it: Nivå – ah, or, oh, Nevo, Nivå? Nivå. I’m going to have to learn how to pronounce this better. The Nivå is a pair of wireless Bluetooth earbuds, and they are phenomenal. They don’t weigh very much; they don’t hurt my ears; I am really enjoying using them. And I have a coupon for you for fifteen percent off any purchase from sudio.com – that’s S-U-D-I-O dot com – with keyword SMART. You get free worldwide shipping and fifteen percent off any purchase. You can take a look at their earbuds or their corded headphones. They have over-the-head; they have behind-the-head; they have a bunch of varieties and a bunch of really cool colors. So if you go to sudio.com – S-U-D-I-O – have a look and maybe do some gift shopping, because these would make a great gift for someone you know who likes to listen to podcasts or music while they work out and really likes lightweight, comfortable earphones. Thank you again to Sudio for sending me the Nivå – I think I’m saying that right – and I hope you will give them a try!

If you have supported the show with a pledge on our Patreon, thank you very, very much. I invite you to have a look at patreon.com/SmartBitches. Monthly pledges starting at one dollar a month help keep the show going, help ensure that every episode has a transcript, and will make you part of the group that helps me develop questions and interviews for upcoming episodes.

I also have compliments. I love this doing this. Compliments – this one is for Brent.

Brent: A very specific subset of corvids have decided that you are a god in their world, and none of the other birds are in the least bit surprised.

And to Elizabeth P.: You are more endearing and generate more positive feelings than ninety-nine percent of all baby animal GIFs on the internet.

Now if you would like a compliment of your own, have a look at patreon.com/SmartBitches. Some of the pledge levels come with handcrafted, heartfelt compliments from yours truly.

Are there other ways to support the show? Yes. If I’m in your eardrums right now, thank you, thank you, thank you for listening. You can leave a review; you can tell a friend; you can subscribe; whatever works. I am honored that you are listening to this show each week. It is one of my favorite things to do.

The music you are listening to is from Sassy Outwater. You can find her on Twitter @SassyOutwater. This is the Peatbog Faeries from their album Blackhouse. This track is called “Strictly Sambuca,” which is one of my favorites. I like the idea and the song. You can find this album at Amazon or iTunes or wherever you like to buy your fine music.

Coming up on smartbitchestrashybooks.com – there is a website that goes with the podcast, but I am guessing you knew that – we have a new edition of Historical Kitchen with Redheadedgirl coming up tomorrow, Saturday, then beginning Sunday, November 4th, we are doing another grab bag giveaway. Technically, it’s a grab box giveaway. If you leave a comment, you are entered to win a box of assorted romances, including paperback, trade, and hardcover, all new, all unread, all ready to head over to the library of one of our winners, so if you stop by and comment, you are entered to win, and we will announce the winners on Friday! We also have reviews of romances, a cover reveal on Monday that is really gorgeous that I’m really excited about, and a new edition of Cover Awe. We have a new Gift Guide, plus Help a Bitch Out and Books on Sale every day. We also have a guest post coming up from a reader who is enduring the smelly, messy cleanup after Hurricane Michael in Florida, and she is sharing what books have kept her going. I hope that you will stop by!

Now, as always, I end the show with a terrible joke, and this is a terrible joke. It’s really bad.

So here’s a puzzle for you: there’s a guy on a boat with two cigarettes and nothing else. How does he light a cigarette? How does he light one?

Give up? There’s a guy on a boat, two cigarettes, nothing else. How does he light one?

Well, he throws a cigarette off the boat, and the boat becomes a cigarette lighter.

[Laughs] I think, I think the reaction I got to that one when I test drove it on the family was, ugghhhh. Which, you know, is the appropriate reaction. [Laughs more] That joke came from waitimnotready, and yes, it is quite groan-ful. I like it very much.

On behalf of Jeff and Will and Orville, who is still trying to crawl into the sound box this week, I wish you the very best of reading. I hope you have a great weekend, and if you stay to the end of this music I have a special outtake with Orville trying to help me record the outro for this episode. Have a lovely weekend, and I’ll see you next week.

[foot-tapping music]

Sarah: Isla made one teeny little mistake, and now she and her PI company, Dirty Exes, are being targeted by one seriously angry and furiously sexy ex-quarterback.

And Orville is here to screw up my recording. Buddy, you got to get off the keyboard. You’re – what are you, what is even happening right now?

[Bump, scrape]

Sarah: Oh, great, it’s your butt. I’m excite- – all right, fine. Thanks. That sounds, that sounds great. Thanks very much.