TW: discussion rape or attempted rape
Inspired by a listener email, Sarah and RedHeadedGirl casually discuss the most recently aired episode of the BBC’s Poldark. They discuss the intricacies of spoilers, and the television portrayal of what in the book is a rape scene, along with the viewer reaction to the episode. They also explore the idea of altering or preserving original source material for adaptation: should the television production take into account modern audiences and adapt accordingly, or should the television show have stayed more true to the source material? It’s not an easy question to answer.
So spoiler warnings, and salty language warnings, and above all, trigger warnings ahoy.
There is also a discussion of what they’re reading, and what they want to see next.
PLUS! A disgusting interlude! From Sarah: “At about 40 minutes, while I’m recording, Orville, my cat with colon difficulties, strains to move his bowels in front of (not IN) the litter. Then, well, it gets smelly. But it’s amusing and I know how much you love cat misadventures in the podcast, so I left this part in. I hope it makes you laugh as hard as I did while editing. And please forgive me if you hated it.”
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- The Telegraph coverage as well
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Transcript
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[music]
Sarah Wendell: Hello, and welcome to episode number 221 of Smart Podcast, Trashy Books. I’m Sarah Wendell from Smart Bitches, Trashy Books, and today we’re going to talk about when Poldark got really, really dark. RedHeadedGirl has been recapping the episodes of the BBC’s Poldark as they air in the US, and inspired by a listener email, we are going to discuss very casually the most recently aired episode of that show. We’re going to talk about the intricacies of spoilers, the television portrayal of what in the book is a rape scene, and the viewer reaction to that episode. We also talk about the idea of altering or preserving source material when working with an adaptation, and it’s not an easy question to answer as to whether or not something should be altered for a modern audience, adapted accordingly, left as it is. Most of all, we have a lot of warnings here, so spoiler warnings and salty language warnings and, above all, trigger warnings, because for the first thirty-five minutes we’re going to talk about a particular scene where in the book it’s very clearly rape and in the television show it’s kind of left a more, to a more broad interpretation.
We also have a discussion about what we’re reading and what we want to see next and a disgusting interlude. At about thirty-seven minutes, while I’m recording, Orville, my cat who has colon problems, he strains to move his bowels in front of but not in the litter, and I almost took this out, except that when I was editing it, it was incredibly funny, and also, I know how much you love it when my cats or my dogs screw up my podcast recordings, so I thought, all right, I will leave this in. I hope that it makes you laugh as hard as I did while I was editing it, and if you hate this part, I am so sorry; please forgive me.
I will have links to all of the books and television shows and DVDs that we talk about in the podcast entry at smartbitchestrashybooks.com/podcast. We also have an iTunes page at iTunes.com/DBSA that has most recent episodes plus links to the iBooks store.
As always, the music you’re listening to is provided by Sassy Outwater. I will have information at the end of the show who this is.
And while we don’t have a sponsor for this podcast or the transcript for this episode, I would like to invite you to take a look at the podcast Patreon, which has become a major support source for the show. If you would like to make a monthly pledge of a dollar or three dollars or five dollars, you help keep the podcast going, and you help me commission transcripts for older episodes, and you help make the world a more inappropriate place for when my cat is really, really quite active during recording sessions. It’s a win all around, right? You can find out more at patreon.com/SmartBitches.
As I said earlier, we are going to talk a lot about rape and sexual assault in this particular show and in the story and in the books, so please keep that in mind. I want you to feel safe, and I don’t want you to be triggered by anything.
And now, on with the podcast.
[music]
Sarah: How you doing?
RedHeadedGirl: I’m still very tired from my extremely busy weekend.
Sarah: Was Hamilton amazing?
RHG: Hamilton was amazing.
Sarah: Yayyy! I’m so happy you got to see it!
RHG: Am too!
Sarah: So I have this temporarily titled as “Poldark Got Really Fucking Dark.”
RHG: [Laughs] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There, there are lots of things to say there. And –
Sarah: So basically, to, to, before we get into the discussion, we’re going to –
RHG: Yeah.
Sarah: – spoil the hell out of the most recent episode –
RHG: Yes.
Sarah: – that aired on Sunday, November 13th.
RHG: Thirteenth, yeah.
Sarah: So when I post this, five days ago.
RHG: Yep.
Sarah: And given that the book is how old?
RHG: The book that this particular scene happened in was, I, I want to say ’53?
Sarah: Okay. There you go. So we’re talking about –
RHG: So there you go.
Sarah: – it, it’s, it’s, it’s – on the one hand it’s a television show that’s currently airing based on a book that’s fifty-some years old? Or, no, seventy-seven years old? So –
RHG: Yeah.
Sarah: Yeah. It’s, it’s hard to say whether or not –
RHG: Yeah, it’s not new anymore. It’s hard to wrap my head around that, ‘cause clearly the ‘90s were, like, last week, but –
Sarah: Oh! Oh, totally.
RHG: Right?! Right!
Sarah: Right? Oh, let me tell you about the time that my younger son was complaining about how the camp play was from the 1900s.
RHG: When was it from?
Sarah: God, I want to say it was one of the musicals that, like, every camp does, so, like, 1960-something, maybe 1950-something?
RHG: Oh –
Sarah: But I had to explain to him, dude, I am from the 1900s.
RHG: Aw, punkin.
Sarah: I know, right? He’s like, but it’s so old! I’m like, you just shut your mouth, and we’re in the middle of an amusement park, and I look over, and there is an amusement park employee, and he is doubled over dying laughing at this conversation!
[Laughter]
Sarah: I mean, really, he was like, I’m sorry, ma’am. I’m like, it’s all right! It’s funny.
RHG: No, no, no, that’s legit, dude.
Sarah: He could, he could, literally could not breathe, this poor man. [Laughs] So –
RHG: Well, I’m glad that you brought some joy to this random dude’s life. [Laughs]
Sarah: Yeah, right? I, I, it was worth the price of the ticket. So basically, Poldark gets really dark!
RHG: Yes. And –
Sarah: So do you want to, do you want to – ugh.
RHG: I’ll, let me, let me give the nutshell. So –
Sarah: A nutshell?
RHG: Well –
Sarah: Trigger, okay, trigger warning also.
RHG: Trigger warnings up the wazoo, ‘cause we’re, we’re talking about what may or may not be, depending on your interpretation, a rape scene in the most recent episode of Poldark. Committed by the hero. “Hero.” I’m using quotes, ‘cause he has not been acting heroic this season. He’s been acting kind of dumb and certainly like an ass.
Sarah: Poldark.
RHG: Ah, yeah, Ross.
Sarah: [Laughs]
RHG: I wish his name, Ross, was short for something, ‘cause there are multiple times that I’m just, like, sighing, oh, Ross-bert, because –
Sarah: [Laughs] You need another syllable to –
RHG: You need another syllable –
Sarah: – to fully –
RHG: – to really kind of express your disappointment.
Sarah: Exactly. Sometime you need more than one syllable to truly capture your, your sadness.
RHG: Yeah. So the, the scene in question is between Ross and his first love, Elizabeth, who had been married to – he came home from the Revolutionary War in which, you know, they’re British, so they lost, and –
Sarah: You don’t say.
RHG: No kidding. Spoilers!
Sarah: Okay. Spoiler!
[Laughter]
Sarah: That’s the best spoiler – how many spoiler alerts will be in this episode?
RHG: I don’t know, I don’t know, but, yeah. He came home to discover that the woman that he left behind and was expecting to marry was engaged to his cousin.
Sarah: As you do.
RHG: As, you know, you do. And then he – Elizabeth marries Francis, the cousin in question, and Ross marries Demelza, and that’s a whole thing, and at the end of season one you’re like, yay! Everybody’s going to be fine. Except –
Sarah: And then there was season two.
RHG: Except that there are ten more books in the series, so clearly everything’s not going to be fine; otherwise, they would be really boring books. So, season two, Francis dies, and even before he died, Elizabeth and Ross had been doing this weird, flirty, like, well, if only things had been different, then we’d be totally knocking boots right now.
Sarah: Which is horrible, because Demelza’s awesome.
RHG: Because Demelza’s awesome, and Ross does not deserve her.
Sarah: No.
RHG: And every once in a while he seems to realize that that is true, and then he goes and does something really fucking stupid.
Sarah: So there’s a, there’s a repeating cycle in these books –
RHG: There’s, there is –
Sarah: – of Ross sticking his head up his ass, basically.
RHG: Yes, and –
Sarah: Maybe that’s where the dark is in Poldark.
RHG: Heh, up Ross’s butt?
Sarah: Yeah, he shoves his head up his ass, still looking for the light, and it’s not there!
RHG: Yeah. Yeah, well, he is a miner.
Sarah: Hmm. True that.
RHG: And, so Francis dies, and there’s kind of this vague question of will Ross leave Demelza and take up residence with Elizabeth? He can’t divorce Demelza because getting a divorce in 1790s Cornwall is difficult.
Sarah: To say the least.
RHG: To say the least.
Sarah: Yup.
RHG: But he can certainly, you know, dump his wife and take up with Elizabeth, but of course he won’t do that because he’s, he’s dumb, but he ain’t that dumb. But they’re still sort of –
Sarah: [Deep breath] Ross.
RHG: – you know, flirting weirdly back and forth, and he’s spending all this time with Elizabeth, and then she essentially gets completely and totally emotionally and financially manipulated into getting engaged to Ross’s archnemesis. And –
Sarah: Which is going to devastate his delicate man-feels.
RHG: It does devastate his delicate man-feels, so he storms over to have a discussion and –
Sarah: I heard the air quotes from here. A “discussion,” yeah.
RHG: Yeah. A “discussion.”
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
RHG: Where he’s yelling, and she’s yelling back, and in the book it’s not ambiguous at all, no matter what Winston Graham’s son says – we’ll get to that. It’s not ambiguous at all, ‘cause he forces himself on her and says, maybe it’s time you were treated like a slut.
Sarah: [Gasps] Ross!
RHG: Yeah.
Sarah: How did you keep going through these books? Like, were you, were you super invested in the story where you were like, okay?
RHG: I, I already, I had read a summary at some point, so I had a lot of time to know that this was coming.
Sarah: Ahhh.
RHG: So I, I already knew that this was a thing.
Sarah: Right.
RHG: So it, it wasn’t like I was blindsided with it like I was with the Lady Pirate. Lynsay Sands, I’m still mad at you.
Sarah: So which book is this, by the way?
RHG: This is in book four, Warleggan.
Sarah: Ho-kay!
RHG: And –
Sarah: By the way?
RHG: Yep.
Sarah: The names, my gosh.
RHG: Yes. Winston Graham said that he came up with Poldark ‘cause he found some family name that was like Polgreen or something? And he’s like, I like that, but I want it to be darker, so let’s be literal.
Sarah: Okay, that works.
RHG: Sure, sure. You know, you do you. And Demelza is, is a, a typical Cornish name –
Sarah: Right.
RHG: – the –za ending is a thing.
Sarah: Right.
RHG: And in the show –
Sarah: What did you think of the difference between the way –
RHG: The difference, I mean, it’s definitely, they definitely did change it. They said last year that, oh, no, we’re, we’re going to be changing that, and I said that, yeah, I know that there are ramifications from this event, but I don’t believe that it needs to be rape-y? And in the show it’s, it’s still kind of rape-y, although the show runner thinks that, oh, no, we changed it to, so it’s totally consensual, and it’s like, mmm, I don’t think you did, because he shows up, and she’s like, okay, if you want to have a discussion or whatever, let’s go downstairs and not, you know, be in my bedroom, and he’s like, no, we’re going to have it here, and they yell for a bit, and he kisses her rather forcefully and sort of nudges her towards the bed, and she’s like, you wouldn’t dare, and he’s like, oh, watch me.
Sarah: Oh, dude!
RHG: And, like, and then once she is in the bed, then she’s like, okay, well, I guess we’re doing this and is super into it. And then wakes up the next morning and is sad because he left and went back to his wife, who punched him out. The GIFs are amazing.
Sarah: Ooh!
RHG: Yeah.
Sarah: So how did she know?
RHG: She just knew. He walked in and looked guilty and was like, I had no choice, and she’s like, yeah, no.
Sarah: The hell you didn’t!
RHG: Pow!
Sarah: [Laughs] Go, Demelza!
RHG: Yeah. So there are some people who feel that what they did in the modern show – and I, I don’t know how that scene played out in the 1975 version of the show?
Sarah: Right, but in the version that’s showing right now –
RHG: The version that’s showing right now, there are some people who are saying it’s worse because they’re like, no, this is totally not rape, but he was, like, not taking her no and forcing himself across her boundaries when she clearly states them, and then she wakes up and she’s like, well, that was totally not rape; that was perfectly enjoyable. I would like to go again.
Sarah: Oh, dude.
RHG: Yeah.
Sarah: So what, so what you’re saying is –
Together: – it’s complicated.
Sarah: Right.
RHG: [Laughs] Yeah. So, like, you can take the, the interpretation, you can interpret it through the context of the 1950s.
Sarah: Right.
RHG: You can interpret it through the context of the 1790s, and even interpret it through the context of right now, and I think you will come up with, like, twelve different interpretations just on those three permutations alone.
Sarah: How so?
RHG: I mean, the difference between the, the book and that – I, I think Winston Graham does a really good job of writing women, but he is still a dude writing women, so I don’t know how much thought he really put into this in terms of consent and what women really think and experience, and from what I understand about how consent was viewed in the 1950s, I, I think that there are a lot of pe-, women who would go, well, that was a bad date.
Sarah: And, yeah.
RHG: And what they’re, what they’re saying is, I had to put out; otherwise, things would have gone very badly for me, and we would look at that now and go, yeah, that was rape.
Sarah: How do you, what do you think of the television portrayal?
RHG: Oh, I think that they didn’t think that all the way through. It, they definitely – I have not read book five yet because I am sort of spacing them out so I read them not long before the series happens? And also they’re expensive.
Sarah: Yeah.
RHG: Even for Kindle, they’re expensive. So I know that the, there are ramifications from this encounter that echo throughout the rest of the series, ‘cause –
Sarah: Right.
RHG: – I, I read up on that part, but as to if those ramifications are from the rape aspect or the sex aspect, that I don’t know. I suspect it’s the sex.
Sarah: Interesting. Whereas for contemporary audiences, the response to these episodes has been, I’d like to set him on fire, and this isn’t okay –
RHG: Yeah.
Sarah: – and how – it seems to me from what I’ve been reading that there are some vocal critics who are like, why didn’t you change this? Because –
RHG: Yeah. And –
Sarah: – this, for a modern audience, this ruins everything.
RHG: Yeah, and they did change it. They, they, they absolutely did change it, compared to what was written on the page, but I don’t think they changed it enough, and they definitely could have made it a hate fuck? ‘Cause I love me a good hate fuck.
Sarah: [Laughs]
RHG: That wasn’t so –
Sarah: Does the BBC do hate fucking? I’m not sure the BBC does that.
[Laughter]
Sarah: I just had a really bad British Bake-Off joke. I’m just going to let that go. [Laughs more] Anyway.
RHG: Soggy bottom, Sarah.
Sarah: That’s right! Yeah, I’m pretty sure that that’s not a thing that the BBC does, but okay, anyway, I could be wrong!
RHG: They could have – I mean, they showed I, Claudius; I’m pretty sure there’s a lot of hate fucking in there. It’s just really implied.
Sarah: You make a good point.
RHG: Yeah.
Sarah: So what is your take?
RHG: My take is that, yes, they changed it. They didn’t go far enough. They could have made it more clear that Elizabeth was down way before he shoved her on the bed.
Sarah: Wait, so that she was, she was, in a sense, agreeing.
RHG: Showed that she was a willing participant. Like, they, the, the show runner –
Sarah: Oh, down to fuck! I was like, down, like down on the ground, down ‘cause he hit her – oh! Down to fuck. Sorry. Durr.
RHG: [Laughs] ‘Cause the show runner was like, no, this is totally consensual, and I’m like, it’s not, though.
Sarah: So the, the show runner thinks that what they showed was consent –
RHG: Yep.
Sarah: – and what you saw, you don’t think so much was –
RHG: No, because Elizabeth consented in the end, and if you take, like, a 1790s interpretation you could go, like, kind of what we say with old school romances when, when heroines are forcefully seduced into their first time, that they –
Sarah: Yes, they’re kissed into compliance.
RHG: They’re kissed into compliance, and they can say to themselves, well, I can, I can allow myself to enjoy this now, because I didn’t have a choice, and so if you want to take that interpretation to make yourself feel better about continuing to watch the show, I am not going to stop you.
Sarah: Right.
RHG: I mean, I’m not going to stop anybody from doing pretty much anything they want in terms of the show.
Sarah: So you’re not going to disagree with anyone who thinks that it was –
RHG: No.
Sarah: – nonconsensual, because that was your take too.
RHG: Yeah, yeah.
Sarah: Was there a way that this could have been done better?
RHG: Oh, yeah, definitely.
Sarah: Would, if it had been changed and the rape, the rape scene had been modified or, or, or minimized so that it was sizably different from the, the portrayal in the book, do the ramifications still bear out?
RHG: I think so? I know that – okay, spoilers for future books and future seasons, book five and beyond.
Sarah: Right.
RHG: I know that Elizabeth does marry George, Ross’s archnemesis, and she does get pregnant rather quickly, and it’s either outright stated or heavily implied that it’s actually Ross’s kid.
Sarah: Yikes.
RHG: So making it less rape-y and more hate-fuck-y wouldn’t change that, because, I mean, up to this point, these are two people who are like, we clearly have very naughty pants feelings for each other, and we’re also super mad at the situation, so I could absolutely see them kind of going, well, hmm, to, to quote another play I saw this weekend in New York, it’s beyond my control. I just, we have to have sex. We just have to. And everyone else around them going, you didn’t, though, and that’s why Demelza punches you in the face!
Sarah: Right. Because it’s easy for him to talk his way out, to, to let himself off the hook –
RHG: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: – both within the context of the book and within the context of the show –
RHG: Yeah.
Sarah: – but from the perspective of, of other people, not so much.
RHG: Not so much! Not so much.
Sarah: It makes me think of Whitney, My Love, because that book has a couple of scenes that really are, I think, good, you know, two, three feet over the border of consent –
RHG: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: – and the book was edited to minimize those scenes –
RHG: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: – and to change them, and it was an interesting discussion when it was figured out by people that the book had changed, because did it sizably change the, the whole story? Did it sizably change the whole book? It depends. But I remember at the time, this was several years ago, Lauren Willig and Cara Elliott were teaching a seminar about romance fiction to Yale undergrads –
RHG: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: – and that was one of the books that they had assigned, and so everyone went out and bought a copy, and they’re all reading it, and they were reading – the, the professors were reading their own copies, which were older –
RHG: Right.
Sarah: – and so they kept saying, well, didn’t you think that was out of line? Didn’t you think it was a problem? And all the students were kind of like, no?
RHG: No. What?
Sarah: What is, what are, what are you, wait, what? And, and they had no idea that it had been updated –
RHG: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: – and it was – I, I still don’t have – it’s not like I don’t care? I, I, I think it’s fascinating, and I, and I basically chase my own tail over the whole question: is it worth changing something like that? Does it, does it help that book find a new audience, or is that particular style of romance so out of fashion now that it’s not necessarily something that someone’s going to be like, oh, yeah, Whitney, My Love, you’ve got to read that. I, I don’t ever recommend that book, like, ever –
RHG: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: – and there are many, many other McNaughts that I will recommend; that is not one of them.
RHG: Right.
Sarah: And it’s not just because of that scene; it’s ‘cause Clayton’s a giant asshole.
RHG: [Laughs]
Sarah: So changing the book doesn’t change the fact that I don’t, like, recommend it to people who are new romance readers. I think that would –
RHG: Hmm.
Sarah: – [laughs] that would send them running and screaming! But does updating it to give the book a chance, a potential chance with a modern romance reading audience, is that a worthwhile decision? I honestly don’t know.
RHG: Yeah.
Sarah: So when you’re taking a book that’s as old as the Poldark books about a time period that’s even older –
RHG: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: – I have to kind of agree with you that the show runner and the writers could have done better –
RHG: Right.
Sarah: – to update that show. I mean, consider how –
RHG: And –
Sarah: – consider how far apart television shows and books have gotten when they’ve been adapted in progress.
RHG: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: Like, True Blood, the books and the TV show were very, very different things.
RHG: Ah. I’m so mad at that show.
[Laughter]
Sarah: You’re not alone! I mean, the, the –
RHG: Right, and, and I’m not mad at it because it changed the books, ‘cause I, I have no emotional feelings about the books whatsoever. I read the first one and was like, well, that was a thing, but it was just the way that they treated Tara, the character. It was just not good.
Sarah: Yeah.
RHG: Ugh. But Rutina has a, a lovely show with a show runner that adores her, so she’s good. She’s fine!
Sarah: Yay!
RHG: Yay! [Laughs] Yeah, I mean, feel like you changed it some; you could change it more so it was actually doing what you thought you were doing. You just didn’t – like, consent after the fact is still not consent. Not really.
Sarah: No.
RHG: And I, I don’t want to say that, well, victims are not, don’t get to define their own experience. Like, if you feel that what happened to you was not rape, I’m not going to be the one to say, no, you’re defining your experience wrong, but this was, this is something that was written by a third party, and, like, you’re the one who was saying that Elizabeth is saying, this isn’t rape, but you’re the one who’s making her say that, so it becomes very recursive. And other people are looking at the totality of the circumstances and going, ohhh, that wasn’t great. Or that was bad, or I want nothing to do with your show anymore, because Ross is a shitty hero. Which he is.
Sarah: There seem to be a number of, of viewers who are like, I am so out. Like, this is it. Nope. I’m done. I can’t watch this guy anymore.
RHG: Yeah.
Sarah: And I have to know; I, I have to, I have to say, I, I know that feeling.
RHG: Yeah.
Sarah: I also sort of empathize with the, with the situation that the writers are in?
RHG: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: Because when you deviate too much from the source material, people get all mad, but if you –
RHG: Yep.
Sarah: Gosh, it’s a really hard call, because it, I think what makes this so grating for viewers who are into the show in part is that he’s still the hero. Nothing –
RHG: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: – grievously bad is going to happen to him for this. This is – so, in any other show, this would be a likely reason for this particular person to have some significant consequence for what they did. There’s not going to be one for him.
RHG: I mean maybe. I don’t know.
Sarah: Well, if they’re going to diverge from the source material by this amount, I guess maybe they could do more later.
RHG: Right. I mean, I know that he and Demelza have multiple more children, but it’s unclear, like, what all hap-, I mean, it’s eight more books that, that follow, oh, another thirty years.
Sarah: [Sighs] Yeah.
RHG: So.
Sarah: It’s a mess.
RHG: It’s a mess, and it’s, like, it, it isn’t necessarily working towards a Happily Ever After for anybody, ‘cause, I mean, it’s a, a saga series.
Sarah: Yeah, and it’s going to keep going through a lot of detail.
RHG: Yeah.
Sarah: Are you still going to watch it?
RHG: Yeah.
Sarah: Does this change –
RHG: Oh, yeah. No –
Sarah: This doesn’t change how you –
RHG: This changes nothing.
Sarah: No?
RHG: No. Like I said, I knew this was coming, and I knew, I made that decision over a year ago. Over a year? That sounds about right.
Sarah: So, you knew this was coming, so you sort of prepared.
RHG: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: I can see why this would be very upsetting for someone who was not prepared.
RHG: Yeah. Yeah, and I think Americans have had, had a potential chance to – ‘cause this aired in the UK three weeks ago –
Sarah: Right, which is when the –
RHG: – and –
Sarah: – when the anger started.
RHG: Yeah. So American viewers might have had an, an inkling by the, the anger rippling over the pond.
Sarah: Yeah, that pond gets real short.
RHG: It gets real short sometimes.
Sarah: Yeah. It’s like, you know, like the, the top of the Mississippi where you can jump over it?
RHG: Yeah, I’ve done that.
Sarah: Yeah, exactly. It gets pretty – [laughs] – it gets very small.
RHG: [Laughs] It’s very small. You can, you can wade the first quarter mile or so. I, I don’t think we’re going to solve any, you know, major problems here, but, you know, we can certainly validate your complicated feelings.
Sarah: Yeah.
RHG: You can have as many of them as you like.
Sarah: What was the original email? So this is what Amy said:
Amy’s email: here’s what I’m writing about: The BBC version of Poldark and the infamous… what I would consider to be… forced seduction scene between Ross and Elizabeth. This episode hasn’t yet aired in the US, but it has in the U.K., and has been highly controversial.
I remember that you gals did a podcast about Rape and trigger warnings, etc., and one thing that was stressed was that we all should understand that what triggers one person doesn’t trigger another. What one person considers to be rape, and not ok, could be another person’s forced seduction and ok.
But in this current climate of zero tolerance policy for anything that even hints at non consensual, it seems like there is a whole culture of people who feel that anything “consensually ambiguous” should not ever be portrayed anywhere ever. There are currently tons of very angry Tweets, articles and blog posts shaming the BBC, anyone associated with Poldark in any way and any fans that are ok with this series continuing. There are talks of boycotts and even calls for the series to be taken off the air.
I think the whole thing is interesting. In order to make a series like this in modern times do we have a responsibility to completely change the source material to fit modern sensibilities? It seems like in a case like this, you would be damned if you do and damned if you don’t. Leave things as is (or in this case change the story marginally to make it appear more consensual) and you feel the wrath of those accusing you of “glorification” of rape. Change the story significantly to erase any hint of rape and feel the wrath of fans of the books, not to mention run the risk that because of such a drastic change, it completely changes all the storyline from that point forward.
Sarah: Yeah, pretty much.
RHG: Yeah. Yeah. So –
Sarah: It’s not an easy call. If you were in charge, what would you have done specifically?
RHG: I, I would have gone the hate-fuck route.
Sarah: Like, made it clear that –
RHG: Made it, made it clear that, well, we’ve been sort of dancing towards this, and, and, you know, possibly even make her initiate that first, that first hate-filled kiss.
Sarah: Right.
RHG: And then, you, you could even keep the line of, you wouldn’t dare, and it make it challenging, like, you don’t have the balls to do this, do you? So, yeah, and I think that would have, that would still keep with the intent of the scene?
Sarah: Right.
RHG: Without making it as, as vicious as it is on the page.
Sarah: And it, it still leaves the, the issue and the conflict of him having cheated on Demelza, and she, she’s still justified in punching him in the face.
RHG: Absolutely.
Sarah: And you know what? I honestly would not want to get hit by her?
RHG: No.
Sarah: No. She’s –
Together: – very strong. [Laughter]
Sarah: She would fuck you up.
RHG: Yeah. Yeah, and in the, the following episode he sports a fantastic black eye.
Sarah: I, I really struggle with this one.
RHG: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: I, I ha-, I really do. It’s – grrr! It’s very difficult.
RHG: It is. So, kind of related in this vein, I saw this weekend Dangerous Liaisons [Les Liaisons Dangereuses] on Broadway.
Sarah: Right.
RHG: And –
Sarah: Those fit.
RHG: [Laughs] Yes. And there’s the, the scene where Cecile, the morning after she has been raped and/or seduced by Valmont, she goes and talks to the Marquise de Merteuil – and I probably pronounce it wrong, but my French when I haven’t heard the word a lot is not good – and Cecile tells her that, that she has been fucked by Valmont, and the Marquise says, tell me, you resisted him, did you? Of course I did! As much as I could! But he forced you? Well, it wasn’t that exactly. I found it almost impossible to defend myself.
Sarah: Ugh!
RHG: Why was that? Did he tie you up? No, but he has a way of putting things; you just can’t think of an answer. Not even no? Well, I kept saying no all the time, but somehow that’s what, what I, that wasn’t what I was doing. And in the end, I told him he could come back tonight. And if you’ve read the original book of Dangerous Liaisons, which is one of the greatest examples of an epistolary novel that has ever been written – written by a bored French bureaucrat, by the way –
Sarah: As you do.
RHG: As you do. I think that, that – and it was written in the, the early 1780s –
Sarah: Right.
RHG: – in pre-revolutionary France – that, that the author, de Laclos, would not call that rape at all. Of course not, because she wasn’t forced-forced, and even on stage that scene was just kind of like, oh, this is super awkward, and the sort of, the, the audience reaction was like, hmm. This is awkward. [Laughs] This is difficult.
Sarah: [Laughs]
RHG: I mean, it’s still, it’s my favorite play, but it’s, it is definitely a product of the, the fact that, that these are terrible people doing terrible things just for their own amusement.
Sarah: Well, that is kind of the whole point.
RHG: Yeah. Yeah.
Sarah: [Laughs] And you got to meet him!
RHG: I did! [Laughs]
Sarah: Did you, like, completely lose your shit, like, twenty minutes later?
RHG: No, although I was standing next to another woman, and we got our, he signed a copy of the script that I have from college for –
Sarah: Right.
RHG: – and –
Sarah: That’s seriously cool.
RHG: I know. [Laughs] And this other woman got her program signed, and we had pictures, and then he moved on, and we looked at each other, and she’s like, did that just happen? I’m like, yeah. So.
[Laughter]
RHG: I don’t think it happened at all.
Sarah: No, it was a very broad hallucination with this strange signature.
RHG: Yes. In 1989 there was the movie of Dangerous Liaisons with John Malkovich and Glenn Close –
Sarah: Right.
RHG: – which is stunning, and there was also a movie called Valmont with Annette Bening and Colin Firth –
Sarah: Right.
RHG: – which is based on but does not follow the storyline exactly, and in that one, when Cecile comes to the Marquise and she says, did he force you? She says straight up, no. I –
Sarah: No, I was down.
RHG: I was down. Once I realized what, what my options were, because I was, you know, educated in a convent, and I don’t, know nothing of men, once I realized what was up, I was down.
Sarah: Right.
RHG: It was one of the, the first, like, truly adult movies I ever saw, and we were extremely, like, like, we had this whole plot of how we were going to rent this R-rated movie.
Sarah: [Laughs] You’ve got to have the R-rated movie plot. It’s –
RHG: Yes, and I –
Sarah: – part of growing up.
RHG: In the end, we didn’t have to, like, do, there was, like, fast talking involved, possibly a forged note –
Sarah: Oh, yeah!
RHG: – but they just let us rent it, and we were kind of curiously disappointed. And then we watched it and were like, oh, we, we thought this was going to be actually, like, physically racier.
Sarah: I remember being at home, and no one was bothering me, and I think I had access to, like, HBO, and some movie came on, and it was like, this movie is rated R for adult scenes or adult situations, and I was like, oh, yes!
RHG: Wow!
Sarah: Adult situations! This is what I’ve been waiting for! And then it comes on, and it was like, they were drinking and smoking, and I was like, what?! That’s it?! Argh!
RHG: Nothing. Nothing!
Sarah: I was very disappointed. There was not even a hint of nipple.
RHG: Ow!
Sarah: I was very upset. I was super mad, honestly.
RHG: Yeah.
Sarah: Is there anything else you want to say about Pol and his Dark?
RHG: Ross, stop being terrible.
Sarah: It sounds like he’s going to keep on going.
RHG: Probably. I, I do have, but have not watched, the series finale which aired last weekend. So I, I don’t actually know how this season ends yet, and I, I haven’t, it, they’re a little bit ahead of themselves in the books, so. And – [laughs] – somebody apparently asked the show runner, so did you, like, are you taking the rape scene out because Aidan Turner is so popular? And she’s like, no. That – what? No.
Sarah: The whole idea baffled her.
RHG: The whole idea baffled her. Like, no, we’re – ‘cause she’s, like I said, she feels like they did take out the rape scene. She’s like, no, we’re changing that because we’re changing it, not because we’re worried about hurting Aidan Turner’s star appeal.
Sarah: And has he said anything about it at all, or is he just sort of like, I got hair, and they brush dirt on my manly chest in the field, so it’s all good?
RHG: No, he’s not very –
Sarah: Talkative?
RHG: He’s not, yeah, he’s not very vocal in terms of the social media. I haven’t seen anything from him. I saw that Heida Reed, who plays Elizabeth, said back in September that they had sort of talked it over in rehearsals, and the, was it the Daily Mail? Somebody interpreted her statements as saying that, oh, no, we changed it because I wanted to, and the, the show runner was like, no. That, they, we really didn’t change it much from what was written in the script –
Sarah: Right.
RHG: – during rehearsals. But, so, I’m thinking that Heida Reed also does not interpret what happened as, as rape.
Sarah: The show runner, you mean.
RHG: No, the actress.
Sarah: The actress, okay.
RHG: The actress. Which is a distinct change from a scene in Game of Thrones that in the book was consensual and was made rape in the show, and the show runners were like, no, that wasn’t rape-y; that was just, you know, everybody was into it, and the dude in the scene, the actor who played the man was like, nope! That wasn’t rape! And Lena Headey’s comments were conspicuously absent from the narrative.
Sarah: Interesting!
RHG: Yeah.
Sarah: Huh.
RHG: Yeah.
Sarah: So of course I put catnip on the carpet like a month ago, and now Wilbur is determined to get it all out of the carpet.
RHG: [Laughs] Well, it’s aged properly now.
Sarah: Yes, it’s aged properly, and also I’m recording.
RHG: Of course! Hi, Wilbur.
Sarah: Excuse you? Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, get in the litter box. What are you doing? Wilbur, Orville. Ah, geeze. Okay.
RHG: [Laughs]
Sarah: So maybe he’s trying to poop, maybe he’s not, maybe he’s backed up, maybe he’s not. This is the cat who has colon problems, so this is Orville, actually.
RHG: All right.
Sarah: That’s not what I want, Orville. I am looking at you trying to poop, and you are not in the box. That’s not so good, bud. Not so good.
RHG: Not great at all.
Sarah: We’re going to have to give you some more laxative, my friend. Ah, great. All right. Well. Good thing my office is next to the litter box; I can – whoa! Jesus Christ! The biggest turd just came flying out of my cat. [Laughs] I’m so sorry! I was quite shocked by the appearance of this massive turd. Oh, my God. Oh, it smells amazing.
RHG: Good boy, Orville!
Sarah: Thanks, Orville. I’m really excited that you made this massive cra- – oh, and now he’s going to pretend to cover it up with carpet.
RHG: Of course.
Sarah: Oh, Orville. Well, there was a little bit of struggling, and then kaboom!
RHG: Well –
Sarah: Wow. Okay. So anyway, as we were saying before my cat took a massive shit in the middle of the floor – [laughs] my God. Someday I’m going to record a podcast, and it’s going to be, like, normal. No one’s going to shit on the floor; no one’s going to bark. It’s going to be great.
RHG: Yeah, and then you’re going to be like, something is curiously missing.
Sarah: Right? Maybe this is my version of sacrificing the avocado: the cat takes a massive shit on the floor.
RHG: Yeah, basically.
Sarah: Oh, dear God, now it smells bad.
RHG: [Laughs]
Sarah: God Almighty. Honest, honestly, Jesus Christ.
RHG: Cat, cat shit sounds really terrible.
Sarah: Oh, it’s really bad. It’s really – don’t smell it! The reason you can still smell it is ‘cause you’re not in the litter box.
RHG: [Laughs]
Sarah: Orville! Orville, give it a – he’s going to literally pull up the carpet trying to magically cover up this turd that’s in the middle of the mat outside the litter box. At least it’s not on the carpet, unless he knocks it over.
RHG: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: Anyway, so, moving on from cat shit – Jesus Christ –
RHG: [Laughs]
Sarah: I, I have to breathe into a tissue right now.
RHG: Yes.
Sarah: Okay, you know what, give me five seconds. I’ve got to, I –
RHG: Yeah, sure.
Sarah: – I’ve got to knock this into the litter box.
RHG: Yeah, go.
Sarah: I’ll be right back. Oh, Christ Jesus, Orville. What is this? Why did it happen this way? Oh, my dear God in Heaven. I’m going to die! I’m going to die from bad smells! Don’t you know? Don’t like bad smells! Do not tell me that you just shit on the floor so that I would get up, and you would take my chair.
RHG: [Laughs]
Sarah: Do not tell me that is what just happened. Legit, I think that’s what just happened. I seriously think he shit on the floor so that he could steal my chair.
RHG: Clever boy.
Sarah: Ugh. Anyway, thank you. Apologize for the break there; I was going to die if I didn’t put that in the LitterMaid. Ho-oh!
RHG: Right now, you do what you’ve got to do.
Sarah: Anyway, so, moving on. Are there any books that you want to talk about?
RHG: I am in the middle of Seven Minutes in Heaven by Eloisa James.
Sarah: How do you like it so far?
RHG: I like it very much.
Sarah: Cool!
RHG: And we, we haven’t gotten to the trifles that I sent her recipes for. [Laughs]
Sarah: Right, you are a, you are cited as a source of good recipe.
RHG: Yes, I am!
Sarah: You must have lost your mind.
RHG: Oh, yes, I did!
Sarah: [Laughs]
RHG: Oh, yes, I did! [Laughs] There was actual dancing in a circle. And I am reading The Falcon and the Vegetation of Some Kind by Virginia Henley.
Sarah: The Vegetation of Some Kind by Virginia Henley.
RHG: Maybe it’s a flower? I don’t know; it’s one of Virginia Henley’s bird of prey/foliage.
Sarah: Oh, right.
RHG: The Falcon and the Flower.
Sarah: Right. The Falcon and the Flower. That would be a very different flavor from the Seven Minutes in Heaven, though –
RHG: Yes.
Sarah: – though, maybe not so far off from Poldark.
RHG: Maybe. I don’t know. I, I started it, oh, you know, a week ago and then couldn’t really focus after a little less than a week ago?
Sarah: Uh-huh.
RHG: Yeah.
Sarah: Yeah.
RHG: And had to go back to reading The Tokaido Road, as I said in our comfort reads post.
Sarah: It is a good comfort read.
RHG: It is a good comf-, it’s a great comfort read, and –
Sarah: Yeah.
RHG: – oh, Theresa Romain has a new book that’s coming out, oh, tomorrow.
Sarah: Yay! Are you going to read it?
RHG: Of course I’m going to read it!
Sarah: Of course you’re going to read it. What was I thinking?
RHG: Right!
Sarah: Joanna Shupe and Theresa Romain are pretty much –
RHG: Yep.
Sarah: – ideal catnip.
RHG: Yes. And I also – I have not started this yet, but I have it – a book called Wolf Winter, which is set in the Swedish Lapland in 1717.
Sarah: Wow!
RHG: Yeah.
Sarah: That’s funky! Do you think there need to be more Swedish-set romances?
RHG: There really do. There really, really do. I would even be content with translating Simona Arhnstedt’s historicals into English, please, because I can only read menus and genealogy charts in Swedish at the moment.
Sarah: Well, you could pass them through Google Translate and then bask in the terribleness.
RHG: I could.
Sarah: Yes. It would be terrible.
RHG: That’s pretty much what I do for her Instagram posts.
[Laughter]
Sarah: Well, I think that there is going to be more romance translated into English. At least I hope so. It’s such a small percentage of books overall, let alone romance, that gets translated into the American market, but I would, I would love for there to be more.
RHG: Yeah. Definitely.
Sarah: ‘Cause that would be awesome.
RHG: Definitely. I, I do think that we’re going to be seeing more incredibly independent, strong heroines with lots and lots of rage faced with extreme adversity.
Sarah: I have a whole podcast with, with Elyse talking about heroine rage –
RHG: Yeah.
Sarah: – and how we both really enjoy books where the heroine is really fucking pissed, like the Crows, for example?
RHG: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: They are there to fuck shit up, and you’re not going to talk ‘em out of it.
RHG: Yeah. Yep, I’m fine with that.
Sarah: I am totally okay with that.
[music]
Sarah: And that is all for this week’s episode. I want to thank RedHeadedGirl for hanging out with me shortly after returning from a weekend in New York to discuss this whole issue.
If you have opinions or you want to tell us what you thought of the episode or of the books or if you’ve got suggestions or questions, or you really want to ask me more about my cat, that’s totally fine too, you can email us at [email protected], or you can call and leave a voicemail at 1-201-371-3272. I really like hearing from y’all because you’re very smart and very cool, so please feel free to email or call anytime.
The music you’re listening to is provided by Sassy Outwater. You can find her on Twitter @SassyOutwater. This is “Passport Panic” by Peatbog Faeries from their CD Dust, and I will have links in the podcast entry for you to find it on Amazon or iTunes or on the Peatbog Faeries website itself.
And speaking of iTunes, we have an iTunes page! It’s really cool! iTunes.com/DBSA! It’s really cool looking! We have our own page on iTunes! How cool is that?! Okay, [sniffs] I’m going to chill now. I will, I will access some chill. I will find it somewhere.
But before I do that, I have to tell you about our Patreon page. Yay! Patreon.com/SmartBitches! It’s an opportunity for you to support the show if you’re a big fan, which is really awesome. You can make monthly pledges starting with one dollar a month, and each and every pledge is enormously valued, ‘cause you help me make the show more gooder and help me commission transcripts and keep all things more awesome. And, you know, maybe someday I’ll record episodes where my pets don’t interrupt me! Although you really seem to like it when they do, so, you know, I’ll keep it up with my semi-mostly-advanced-beginner professionalism over here? I’ll do my best, anyway.
But on behalf of RedHeadedGirl and Orville and myself and everyone here, we wish you the very best of reading. Have an excellent weekend!
[chill music]
This podcast transcript was handcrafted with meticulous skill by Garlic Knitter. Many thanks.
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Re the listener email mentioned in the podcast. I think the concern is not that nonconsensual scenes are not shown, but that they aren’t treated as normal in the story.
That characters not be rewarded in-story for their actions is more important than it not happen.
I do think that tv shows could be better at not being quite so gratuitous in their depiction of rap when it needs to happen, it’s not always necessary to show us the event to get the information across to the viewer.
I agree with Ellen. The problem I have with the way rape scenes are often portrayed, is that they are not acknowledged as such, but instead perpatuate the rape culture myth that women can be forced into enjoying their rape. (That whole excuse of “she consented IN THE END, therefore it wasn’t rape.”) It’s infuriating to see this happen over and over again.
HahahaHaa! Go Orville *wipes tear*
Thank you for discussing this, I really appreciate it as I really struggled with that scene in Poldark. I am at a point where I think I need to take a break from the show, maybe permanently.
I completely understand needing to take a break, Sita.
@Ellen – your comment made me think of Carrie’s essay on Mad Max Fury Road, in that the desire for the wives to escape ASAP was indication plenty of how bad it was for them, and no rape needed to be seen on screen for it to be clear that rape had happened to all of them.
@Kera: re your comment that the show’s depiction “perpetuate[s] the rape culture myth that women can be forced into enjoying their rape” — Yes. I agree with you, like the scene was both too much and not nearly enough for what it was intended to do.
@Willa – I’m glad it made you laugh. I was concerned about leaving that part in despite the fact that I was cry-laughing while I edited it. Phew!
Interesting. I did suspect the books would be more overtly rape-y. That whole scene looked like the tv writers trying hard not to paint Ross as a villain but it just didn’t work, like Kera said, for me the most problematic thing was the ‘she consented at the end’ mentality. Just, aaargh. Maybe I would have liked it better if they stuck with the source material. Then again I’m questioning whether it was necessary to have the scene onscreen at all. I’ve never been able to rewatch the episode with the rape scene in Downton Abbey.
My mum’s reading the books now and she tells me all the main differences with the tv series, so it’ll be interesting when she gets to this point. In the show, though, we both agree that Ross deserved far worse than to be socked by Demelza.
Yeah, I watched it Tuesday and was going, “Ugh, Ross.” I’ve been saying this about this show for awhile now. I’m a bit like RHG where I knew it was coming and had had time to process and come to terms with it (which is weird, because it’s not “YAY, RAPE!”, but I don’t end up with it shocking me). I did end up reading it as the “NO, NO, YES” thing, although I would have liked it to have been just a sketch more explicit in terms of consent.
I wondered if there was going to be any discussion of Demelza socking Ross in the face as possible DV. I didn’t read it as such, by simple virtue of man, Ross had that backhand coming. But I could see where someone might go, “Wow, she hit him hard and was that really warranted” (for anyone that might wonder, if my husband came walk-of-shame-ing into the yard in the same episode where he had had to own up to the fact that he also gave the woman he had just gotten done boning what was left of our money and didn’t tell me, well, the backhand would have been following by a swift kick to the nads, so yes, it was). I think, and this might sound weird, this was the first time we’ve seen Demelza fight back a bit against the way Ross has treated her for awhile now, and his particular transgression in this case was very physical, and I can understand Demelza responding in a physical manner as well. Or I’m normalizing physical violence, and should be lashed with a wet noodle.
I am 54, and I remember seeing the original show in 1975, when I was 13. Winston Graham was one of my father’s favorite authors, and I remember watching the show to bond with my father. That series was really popular at the time, and prompted Mr. Graham to write more books in the series. I have not seen the original show in a very long time, so I can’t remember how it portrays this scene, but at the time I think I did not see in Ross’s actions what I see now. It was streaming for a while on Netflix, but now it is only available on the DVD option. I do not remember thinking “oh, this is a rape” when I watched the original show and then read the books. However, this was also the time that I discovered The Flame and the Flower, a book that my 13 year old self loved. My opinion on The Flame on the Flower now is disgust with myself that I could like the book so much and ever think this kind of behavior is OK. I have not read the Poldark books in about 15 years – I wonder if I would feel the same way.
I really appreciate the sentiment in the podcast about how do we represent and interpret these events: as an 18th century person, a 1950s person, or a 21st century person. I find it very strange when people expect their 18th century heroes to behave the same as a 21st century man would, but some things are just too difficult to swallow. I have had similar thoughts about Outlander, which I really love. Jamie is flawed, although some readers want none of those flaws to match to sentiments that most 18th century men would have regarding things such as homosexuality, etc. Voyager is one of my favorite books in the series, but I dread seeing Mr. Willoughby portrayed on the screen. I don’t want to spoil anything, but I would be fine if they cut his character out altogether.
I haven’t listened to this episode yet, but since it may take a while I wanted to add my two cents before the thread got old.
I’ve read the first two and a half Poldark books after season 1 of the show, which means that I didn’t get to the point where the rape occurred and watched episode 2×08 without knowing anything that was going to happen. I use to watch Poldark with my mother and we were both shocked when he raped Elizabeth. Then I had two lenghty discussions with friends about it, one with a friend who watches Poldark as well, the other with two friends who don’t. In both discussions, we argued that the fictional representation of what I dubbed “semi-rape” (and that Kera described far better in her comment #2 above) is even worse than full rape. Semi-rape (in our definition, but then there are probably better ones around) is when the act begins as rape but then we’re told that the lady enjoyed it, à la Scarlett O’Hara carried upstairs by Rhett Butler.
I then read an English article saying that the Poldark screenwriters had wanted to soften the rape in the book by turning it into a “semi-rape”. But I don’t believe they *softened* it even one inch. Having Elizabeth enjoying it from some point on was even worse than a full brutal rape. I certainly didn’t finish watching the episode with the impression that Ross was somehow better. Actually my friends and I spent quite some time on facebook insulting Ross after 2×08. He’s never been a perfect hero but that was the lowest point of his unheroic career.
@Laurel I totally agree about Mr Willoughby. I have seen that they’re casting for the role, but have also heard that they are making significant changes from here on out… so we will see, I guess?
Clearly we do NOT have a zero-tolerance for non-consensual sexual activity. “We” just elected a man who admittedly feels his wealth and celebrity cloak him in impunity. Not to be trivialized in the least, but let’s not put hand to mouth and gasp. Shame on us.
Sorry, I regret the tone. Still bitter.
@TN: No worries. I understand. Thanks, though.
I’ve been feeling like I’ve been jerked around by this show/story for a while now. For all of season 2 actually. I’ve just felt that the characterizations are either too cartoonish, or there are changes in characterization that make no sense for the character and are just there to make ‘drama’. I actually have slowed my viewing of the series and completely stopped watching after episode 7, the one just before the rape episode. I already had the feeling (due to a few spoilers I had seen on the books’ Wikipedia page) that the books might just be a bit too soapy and especially outdated for the story to play well with a modern audience. I thought that without severe changes to the original story, which I didn’t think was happening, I wasn’t going to be able to watch for much longer. That said, this controversial scene seems like a pretty big mistake on the part of the producers, but it didn’t even have to be rape to keep me from watching. The second I realized that Ross was still entertaining feelings for Elizabeth and that there was a possibility he would cheat on Demelza I lost all engagement with the character. The main character! There was a big todo made of the rivalry between BBC’s Poldark and ITV’s Victoria this year. I started out thinking Poldark was obviously superior because Victoria was such a ‘fluff’ piece, but at least I finished the season of Victoria without coming to despise the main character.
I was thinking about this debate in relation to Tess of the D’Urbervilles. I studied it in senior school – aged 16-18 – and it was always very clear to me that Alec most definitely rapes her. It is written very obliquely though, and being so that does, I think, make it easier for adaptations to fade out, just as the book does.
However, I don’t think any adaptation would ever dare to show that scene as even remotely consensual, because it just can’t be construed that way.
And I wonder if part of that is to do with snobbery about Thomas Hardy Vs Winston Graham and the different places accorded them in the literature world. I don’t think there’s ever a general feeling that it is ok to sanitise or change the rape of Lavinia in Titus Andronicus, the recent theatre production of Frankenstein with Benedict Cumberbatch and Jonny Miller included a rape scene.
Maybe it is literary snobbery coupled with the scheduling slot of a sunday night on BBC1 and the Aiden Turner factor…
@Emma: I’m don’t think literary snobbery has anything to do with it. The difference between contemporary people’s reactions to the rape in Poldark and the rapes in Tess of the d’Urbervilles and Titus Andronicus is that the rapes in the latter are portrayed as villainous acts and the women victims of said villainous acts. However, the rape in Poldark is portrayed (or perceived to be) business as usual, with the woman saying no at first but later confirming she actually meant yes. It’s not merely the fact that rape existed in the story, but how it shed light on the character commiting the act and the character victimised by the act.
I actually read the the first five books before I saw the original series in the 70’s and I remember being quite shocked by this scene. Maybe my memory is playing tricks on me, but I don’t recall Ross carrying any great torch for Elizabeth after he married Demelza – a few lingering feels, a lot of guilt that he had persuaded Francis to invest the last of his cash in a failed venture and concern for her welfare and that of Geoffrey Charles.
To me, it always seemed that his was punishing Elizabeth for having the nerve to marry George – his greatest enemy. Sexual desire or long-burning passion had nothing to do with it. Sex was his weapon of choice in this instance rather than his fists.
How did this affect my feelings about Ross? It was the late 70’s and rapey romance heroes were pretty thick on the ground then, so he didn’t seem any worse than your standard Rosemary Rogers type.
Avoiding spoilers here, but this act does have far-reaching and, eventually, tragic consequences – something which even Ross finally comes to understand.
From what I have read, PBS edited this scene to soften it from what was shown in Britain. I certainly never doubted that it was a rape when I read the book or watched the original and never got the vibe that Elizabeth experienced and pleasure from the act. She makes it clear in a later book that she was frightened and ashamed by what had happened.
@RedHeadedGirl, Re wanting an extra syllable to Ross’s name, there’s always the evergreen “Ross Louise Poldark.”
I haven’t read the books, nor do I know anything about the 1975 version. I did not see the scene as rape or even remotely nonconsensual sex. I saw the first kiss as nonconsensual, but by midway through the second kiss, Elizabeth was a willing participant. I also viewed her initial resistance as being “It wouldn’t be right” rather than “I do not want to.” It is interesting what one can see in the scene based on what one is expecting. I do not say this to deny what others experienced, but just to point out that if one comes to the scene without expectation, it can be seen as consensual, although with initial resistance based on it being the wrong thing to do, overcome by mutual desire. I was quite surprised to think that anyone would think otherwise.
First I want to say thank you for discussing this. Being a huge fan of the books and the TV Series, I was really looking forward to SBTB’s take on the whole controversy.
Second, I’m the listener who wrote the email, and I hope that my intentions behind my email came through clearly. Hearing it back on the podcast made me think I should have said this or that differently…maybe it’s just me.
I just found this whole thing fascinating in terms of how different people interpreted the scene differently, and the Writer’s struggle to stay true to the books but not offend a modern audience. I saw many comments online like Heather T’s above where she did not see the scene as non-consent at all and (I kind of felt the same way about the scene, at least in this TV version), and some of the response back (not here but elsewhere) was: “If you don’t see this as rape, then you are part of the problem” or that by writing the scene this way, those involved are romanticizing rape or encouraging rape culture. I don’t blame people for feeling this way, but I do wonder if those kind of accusations are really helpful.
For example, one thing mentioned in the podcast was the question of what Aidan Turner, who plays Poldark, thought about the scene. The response from him that I have read was that to him, the scene they filmed “seemed consensual.” He got a lot of flack from people online for that opinion. I saw comments from some calling him personally a horrible human being for that, which seems uncalled for.
Not sure what the best way to write the scene would have been. Hate f*#k? I don’t know. These two people didn’t ever hate each other at all up to this point. Ross was angry, and some of that was directed at Elizabeth, but at that point, she wasn’t angry at Ross. In that situation, would a hate f*#l still work? They could have also had Elizabeth initiate by maybe kissing Ross first, but I’m not sure if that fits with the character. She’s someone that lets life happen to her, not the other way around. Ross even comments angrily on that in the scene… that she acts as if nothing is ever her fault. On the other hand it could work that she finally says, Ok, here’s the first time I’m going to do something for me, kisses him, and the results are just as disastrous.
But that’s kind of armchair quarterbacking. All I know is that I give Debbie Horsefield props for having the guts to take this kind of story on, and Aidan Turner respect for taking such a difficult role on, and I feel bad that everyone involved in the production took some heat.
For what it’s worth, after having read the entire series, I came away from it still liking Ross Poldark quite a bit, despite all the destructive decisions he made early on. That’s probably why I’m more passionate about defending him.
Finally, just a note for Redheadded Girl that the books do state Ross’s full name as: Ross Vennor Poldark, so, If you get the “motherly” urge to call him by his full name, there it is.