Dear Bitches, Smart Author Podcast, November 20, 2015

[music]

Sarah Wendell:  Hello, and welcome to episode number 168 of the DBSA podcast.  I’m Sarah Wendell from Smart Bitches, Trashy Books, and with me today is bestselling author Liza Palmer.  Liza is currently working in a new area at BuzzFeed, and so she took a few minutes out of her day to talk to me about writing fiction, writing scripts, romantic comedies, and her former job writing for Pop-Up Video, which if you remember that show, it was awesome!

This podcast is brought to you by InterMix, publisher of New York Times bestselling author Jennifer Ashley’s A Mackenzie Clan Gathering.  Return to the tumultuous and passionate world of the Mackenzie clan as a family celebration is shaken by an unexpected danger.  On sale November 17th.

And we have a sponsor for the transcript this month.  The podcast transcript was sponsored by Jenna Sutton, author of the Riley O’Brien & Company series published by Berkley and available in print and eBook.  The second novel in the series, Coming Apart at the Seams, is available for pre-order now and will be released on December 1st.  In Coming Apart at the Seams, pro football player Nick Priest is trying to win a second chance with denim heiress Teagan O’Brien.  You can read an excerpt at jennasutton.com or connect with Jenna at facebook.com/jennasuttonauthor or on Twitter @jsuttonauthor.

The music you’re listening to was provided by Sassy Outwater.  Yes, this is my favorite holiday album; as someone who doesn’t listen to a lot of holiday music, that’s really saying something.  I’ll have information at the end of the podcast as to who this is and where you can find all of these most excellent tunes for your very own.

And now, without any further delay, on with the podcast!

[music]

Liza Palmer:  Got myself a tiny little room.

Sarah:  You’re having a very important meeting in there.

Liza:  That’s what I’m, that’s what I’ve put on the calendar.

Sarah:  Look, BuzzFeed, I’m having a meeting.

Liza:  Very important meeting.

Sarah:  I need to look at Kardashian photos, and I need to do it alone.

Liza:  That’s right.  STAT.

Sarah:  [Laughs]

Liza:  Cat, and cat videos.  I need to do it right now.

Sarah:  Hey, there’s no better reason to isolate yourself in a conference room.

Liza:  [Laughs] No.

Sarah:  Particularly at BuzzFeed.

Liza:  No, exactly.  It’s our bread and butter.

[Laughter]

Sarah:  So would you please, so people know who you are, introduce yourself and tell us what you’re doing at BuzzFeed right now, aside from –

Liza:  Yes.

Sarah:  – Kardashian cat videos.

Liza:  [Laughs] Yeah.  I am, I – oh, God – Liza Palmer, novelist, I write for TV and film, but presently I am at BuzzFeed Scripted.  I am the head writer at BuzzFeed Scripted.

Sarah:  What is BuzzFeed Scripted?

Liza:  BuzzFeed is trying to get into more scripted content, so we are, we have a writers’ room.  We’ve assembled a writers’ room and are now kind of creating longer form, more kind of conventional, traditional, scripted content.  So, television shows, features, that kind of thing.

Sarah:  Rad!

Liza:  I know, I know.  Yep.

Sarah:  So is there anything particular that you’re working on that we’re going to see soon, or are you not allowed to talk about the, the Kardashian cat show?

Liza:  [Laughs] Yeah.  Okay, that’s, like, a billion-dollar idea, so –

Sarah:  Does, does, does the, do the Kardashians have a cat?  Like, if they had a cat, that would be, like, the most well-paid cat.

Liza:  Pretty much.  Just the most luxuriated on – yeah, exactly, the billion-dollar cat.

Sarah:  [Laughs]

Liza:  Right?  We are doing content for Verizon’s new plat-, platform, Go90, so it’s this whole thing about relationship goals and kind of, kind of a Love, Actually ten-episode arc of these two people who meet in an elevator, and they kind of have to kind of come together in the end, but it’s all their whole, entire group of friends that are threaded together somehow, so that’s been, it’s my dream to bring romantic comedies to every single place that I can, so that was a fun thing to work on.

Sarah:  You know, it’s funny.  I had an interview with, with Julie James, and she was talking about how there haven’t been good romantic comedies –

Liza:  No.

Sarah:  – in the movies for years now.

Liza:  Yep, yep.

Sarah:  And we’re just getting good romantic comedy contemporary romances, but now, you know, now we, we get to have more scripted contemporary comedies?

Liza:  Yeah.  Yeah, ‘cause I think maybe ‘cause it’s, it’s the golden era of, of television, I think.  Television is actually bringing it back with, you know, The Mindy Project and Crazy Ex-Girlfriend and –

Sarah:  Yeah!

Liza:  – all those kind of, that’s kind of celebrating the romantic comedy, and, not for nothing, I mean, I’m, I’m going to place it firmly on the, on the feet at, at the feet of, that women aren’t being able to write and direct these things, so of course they’re not, they haven’t been done right for years, because they’ve been written and directed by men.

Sarah:  You don’t say.

Liza:  Right?  So now that it’s kind of going back into kind of the female gaze and that females are being able to right and direct them, I think they’re going to, we’re going to see a huge uptick in their quality and how good they are, as opposed to how fantastical and hollow they are.

Sarah:  Yes, please, yes, please, yes, please.

Liza:  Mm-hmm, yeah.

Sarah:  Because it is, it is an audience that I am 100% in.

Liza:  Right?  Who isn’t?  You know?

Sarah:  And, yes, and also the, the projects that are helmed by women and written –

Liza:  Mm-hmm.

Sarah:  – by women and directed by women –

Liza:  That’s right.

Sarah:  – they, like, they make money.

Liza:  Yeah, what?!  It’s the same thing.  It’s like, oh, after Bridesmaids hit, you know, I was talking about this, that it’s like, oh, now there’re going to be these, these great ensemble comedies, and it’s like, no!  All that meant was that Paul Feig got to do another comedy starring Melissa McCarthy.  You know, that, Bridesmaids only begot Spy, so, and even now, it’s like Ghostbusters is coming out, but look at all the flack that’s gotten.  So –

Sarah:  I cannot wait for that movie?

Liza:  Mm-hmm, me neither.

Sarah:  I have a T-shirt from, from TeeFury that is a sort of Art Deco style drawing of a female Ghostbuster, and it says, “When someone asks you if you are a goddess you say yes!”

Liza:  [Laughs] That’s amazing.  Yes.

Sarah:  And every time I read it, or excuse me, every time I wear it –

Liza:  Yeah.

Sarah:  – people come up to me and go, oh, my God, where did you get that?

Liza:  Right, or you’re ruining my childhood, which, you know –

Sarah:  No, nobody has told me they’re ruining their childhood.

Liza:  Oh, so, they only say that anonymously online?

Sarah:  Yes!  They only say that –

Liza:  Yeah.

Sarah:  – anonymously online.

Liza:  Hmm.

Sarah:  That’s one of the things, I think, that is really troubling for getting normal, balanced, emotionally fluent, kind dudes to understand how bad it is –

Liza:  Yeah.

Sarah:  – to identify as female on the internet.

Liza:  Right.

Sarah:  Like, when I start to show my husband and his friends some of the flack that I get for, you know, writing about romance novels –

Liza:  Right.

Sarah:  – they’re like, wait, really?  People – ?  I’m like, yes!

Liza:  Yeah.

Sarah:  And they share a chromosome in common with you!

Liza:  Yeah, exactly.  And it’s not something that I can just, oh, just get, just ignore it.

Sarah:  No.

Liza:  I think that’s, like, the whole thing.  It’s like, no, this is, this is actually an issue, and me ignoring it is not the solution to the whole thing, and I’m not – it is real, and I think that’s the other part.  It’s like, it’s online abuse which, you know, anyway, it’s a whole entire conversation.  Yeah.

Sarah:  [Laughs] Have to set up another hour for that.

Liza:  I’m just, I’m – exactly –

Sarah:  That’s not a romantic comedy.

Liza:  I’m just, I’m just sitting here, like, shaking my head and, like, rolling my eyes, of course, ‘cause it’s like, it’s just so, it’s like, yeah, ‘cause the amount of people that posted that, you know, Ghostbusters, the all-female cast of Ghostbusters was ruining their childhood was just – and I think it’s a, I think it’s the part where it’s like, these are people that you know, that are in your life, and you’re like, God, do I want to know that about you?  Do I want to know that you, like, casually think these kind of really terrible things and – ugh!  Yeah.

Sarah:  It’s very frustrating.

Liza:  It is very frustrating.  Very frustrating.

Sarah:  So you’ve written for BuzzFeed –

Liza:  Yes.

Sarah:  – for a little while now –

Liza:  Yep.

Sarah:  – and you also write book things.

Liza:  Yes.  I write book things, yeah.  I’m working on book seven now.

Sarah:  Dude!  Congratulations!

Liza:  Yeah.  Thank you, yeah.  And this is the first time that they’ve, they’ve, have been, kind of two trains running, so that’s going to be fun.  It’s been interesting to have a full-time job in writing, as well as writing novels, which has not been pretty.  I, I must confess, it has not been pretty.

Sarah:  You mean that, like, trucks of money have not backed up to your house?

Liza:  Oddly, no!  And!  You know, come to find out, like, my house isn’t cleaning itself.

Sarah:  What?!

Liza:  I know.  Dinner isn’t being made by, you know, little, little fervent hands.  Yeah, and, and I, you know, the gym and the workouts just, they don’t happen by themselves either, which I think is really, really disconcerting.

Sarah:  [Exasperated noise] God!

Liza:  And it turns out that eating my feelings and not getting much sleep is, is – I don’t know, I don’t know if you’ve heard this, but maybe it’s kind of going to be a new headline is, it’s kind of unhealthy.

Sarah:  No!

Liza:  Yeah, yeah.  So –

Sarah:  Shoot!

Liza:  [Laughs] Yeah.  So, I don’t know, I don’t know, but, but I think what’s interesting is that before, when I didn’t have the BuzzFeed job, there was kind of this other – ‘cause I think the, the, the thing that nobody tells you about being in publishing is, is, is there’s a big kind of feast or famine thing, and it’s –

Sarah:  Yes.

Liza:  – a feast or famine thing not only finance, financial, but it’s also kind of emotional and spiritual and creative as well.  Like, you go through these kind of glacial periods, these eras of kind of creating stuff and learning how to kind of survive from one project to the next.  That’s why you kind of start having different projects, simply because your mind needs to not look at one pot boiling.

Sarah:  Of course.

Liza:  So this, getting this job, has actually really helped, because I think it, it has given me something to – the low-grade stress of just kind of being feast and famine – feast or famine, sorry, hilarious –

Sarah:  Uh-huh?

Liza:  – has morphed into more of a, kind of like a hard-day’s-work exhaustion, which I’m actually kind of comfortable with in, in more ways than just kind of being stressed about when that pot of water is going to boil, which is, tends to be what publishing is about half the time.

Sarah:  The thing about the, the, the feast or famine is that, you know, you, you get the money, a little bit in the beginning –

Liza:  Yep.

Sarah:  – and then you get a little bit when you hand it in –

Liza:  Yep.

Sarah:  – and then that’s –

Liza:  Yep.

Sarah:  – that’s it.  You never know what may happen next.

Liza:  No, and I think it’s an, and I think that it is the two things.  Like, when I, when I first sold my, my first book back in 2003, I was working at this, at this bankruptcy law office and, you know –

Sarah:  That was Conversations with the Fat Girl, right?

Liza:  Conversations with the Fat Girl came out in ’05, if you’ll remember, which, those years are very far apart.  So I –

Sarah:  Wow!

Liza:  That’s hilarious.

Sarah:  Math!

Liza:  So – yeah, yeah!  What?  So I sold it for, Amy Einhorn bought it for $10,000 and –

Sarah:  Nice!

Liza:  So I was like, ten, $10,000!  I was like, this is –

Sarah:  I am wealthy!

Liza:  Yeah, and I did the whole thing that we all dream about, quit in a blaze of glory.  I was like, I quit!  And of course, I get to the Chevron station, not a block away from my job, and I’m like, wait, wait, wait a minute.

Sarah:  [Laughs]

Liza:  $10,000 in half is, like, on, you know, you get it upon signing, and those contracts come, like, maybe three to six months later, so even that, and the check doesn’t come ‘til much later, and then you get it upon approval, like, upon final, and this book went through eight drafts, and it took two years to get to, to, Conversations did, to get to publication, so I had a total of about $7500 over two years, so I had to, of course, find a job as a yard aide at my niece’s elementary school just to make ends meet because I was really, really dumb.

[Laughter]

Liza:  It was like, I’m going to do it.  I quit!  Hahahahaha!  And then just this dawning –

Sarah:  Like, wait a minute.

Liza:  – haunting realization of huh!  So this is going to last me one month –

Sarah:  Yikes.

Liza:  – and, yeah.  So.

Sarah:  So you would advise not –

Liza:  [Laughs]

Sarah:  – making that decision, if someone else finds themselves in that position.

Liza:  Yeah.  It’s, it’s definitely not an impulsive career to be in.  It’s –

Sarah:  [Laughs] You don’t say!

Liza:  Exactly.  It’s a very glacial, thoughtful, almost – [laughs] – what is it, crazy-making-ly slow career.  So, yeah, do not do anything.  How about this?  Do not do anything in a blaze of glory.  We always say, my friends and I have this thing where, that we want to make an app called RIBS, which is Run It By Someone, because it’s just, just run it by someone.  Just – and we want to make an app for, like, should I do this?  Should I – ?  Nope!  Just run it by someone.  And I think that’s –

Sarah:  That is a really good idea –

Liza:  Mm-hmm.

Sarah:  – and you would, you would get a lot of people using that.

Liza:  Yeah.  Yeah, exactly.  So I think publishing in, is, in itself, is just kind of a RIBS-it entire career, because you should just run everything by someone and never, never be impulsive.  [Laughs]

Sarah:  Yes.

Liza:  Just as a – yeah.  Doesn’t, doesn’t work.  Don’t send that tweet.  Don’t do it.  Just, just say it to a girlfriend over dinner.  Just don’t, nope, don’t do it.  Yeah.  Mm-hmm.  Yeah.

Sarah:  So, let’s talk for a minute about your books, because I have seen you speaking at two Surrey International Writers Conferences.

Liza:  Yes, even though it is a conspiracy that we are always at the same time and never guests.

Sarah:  Yes, our panels are always scheduled opposite each other –

Liza:  Yeah, yeah.

Sarah:  – so we only see each other later when there’s drinking.

Liza:  That’s right, which I’m, I’m comfortable with that.

Sarah:  Which is a fine conspiracy.

Liza:  [Laughs] Exactly!  Which is the best –

Sarah:  I’m, I’m okay with that.

Liza:  Yeah, me too.  [Laughs]

Sarah:  So the one that I see everyone talk about is Nowhere But Home.

Liza:  Yeah, yeah.

Sarah:  Is that the book that kind of exploded for you?  Like, everyone was like, oh, my gosh!

Liza:  Yeah, and you know what was interesting, it was, it, you know, it’s all those things that you wish would happen, which is – you know, Conversations was really, was a big debut, and because it had, it was, you know, Amy Einhorn had started a new thing with, she was doing kind of smart chick lit, which –

Sarah:  Yep.

Liza:  – is so head-patting-ly terrible, but anyway, so they, there was a huge push behind it.  It was the debut, it was the launch book for 5 Spot, which was, so it got a huge push behind it, and it did really well.

Sarah:  I remember it.

Liza:  Yeah, and then, and then I kind of got stuck in the midlist and, for two, three, and even four, and when five came out, it was, which was Nowhere But Home, was – ‘cause it was a totally different book.  I had told myself that I was never going to write outside of California, never outside of Pasadena, and this one was essentially, you know, a failed chef must go back to her home town of North Star, Texas, to, and the only job she can get is cooking last meals for the condemned.  But I think I had, I had apprenticed enough, and I had learned enough in the field that I was able to finally write that book.  ‘Cause I do think it was beyond my grasp when I first started.  And essen-, essentially, yes, it’s set in a different town, and yes, it’s kind of about something that’s very dark or, or you think it’s going to be dark, when in actuality, it’s just about food and family, which I think is, for me, I had to kind of figure out what the book was about, on top of kind of the big elevator pitch of it, and so I just connected with the characters, just like any other book, and then it became something that I was very comfortable with.  But it was just beyond my grasp for a lot of my career, until I finally felt that I could kind of dig into it.  But I think it was the small town.  It was the, the sisters in it are very, are, it was great to write sisters, and I think everybody’s been the outsider in a home, in a small town where, you know, you kind of dance with who brung ya, and –

Sarah:  Yep.

Liza:  – who your parents are is then who, how you’re seen, and it’s never, it’s either for bad or good, but it’s never something that you actually did.  And kind of food as a supplement for caring and family and love and that kind of thing.  I think that’s very relatable.

Sarah:  I completely agree.

Liza:  Yeah, yeah.  So that, and that was, and it was, it was such a, that was one where I went to, I had friends in Austin, Texas, and I went there for a week, and then I traveled to Smithville, Texas, which was about an hour outside of Austin, and stayed at a bed and breakfast there, and it was amazing, and that’s kind of, there’s, there’s a place in the book called Delfino’s, which is a backyard place, which is, you know, only locals go there –

Sarah:  Mm-hmm.

Liza:  – and on the last night I was there, you know, I had eaten everything, and it was just amazing, and, like, come on, you know, you’re there for a food book?  Give me a break.

Sarah:  Right.

Liza:  It was definitely a luxury.  But on the final night, I had kind of earned enough cred with the people at the B and B, they were like, okay, we’re going to take you to this place, and it was –

Sarah:  [Laughs]

Liza:  – and I was like, oh, my God, this is the best night of my life, and it was.  It was, it was a little, it was a little trailer, like, almost like a caravan, and it was, I could never find it again.  We walked there, and it was like, through, like, alleys and gates and dogs barking, and I was like, oh, my God, I’m in, like, a cozy mystery, and I was walking through, and then you walk in, and it’s just this lady behind the counter and just these couple of tables, and it was the best, and it was best meal I’ve ever had in my entire life, so, yeah.

Sarah:  Wow.

Liza:  That was, and that’s where Delfino’s came from is because I thought, God, this is, this is the, this is the life is being to, going to a place of, where only locals go in a small town in Texas, and it was just, that’s where the, the entire book was born during that trip to Smithville.  Which was also – a little piece of trivia – where Hope Floats was, was filmed, and so, in my little B and B, they had a VCR, of course, and the only VHS tape –

Sarah:  Of course.

Liza:  – on the, that you were allowed to play was Hope Floats.

Sarah:  [Laughs]

Liza:  So, which, I’m, like, in.  That was, like, every night.  Just put that little VHS thing?  Yeah, exactly.  Who wouldn’t want to watch Hope Floats?

Sarah:  There are some times when you’re traveling and Sandra Bullock is the only thing that’s really going to work for you.

Liza:  That’s it.  That’s it.  Yep.  So.

Sarah:  So tell me about Girl Before a Mirror.  That, that came out almost a year ago.

Liza:  Yeah, it was actually, no, it was actually at the beginning of this year, wasn’t it?  My whole life, I don’t even know.

Sarah:  Yeah, but –

Liza:  Yeah.

Sarah:  – well, it was January –

Liza:  This is a whole year.

Sarah:  – so, yeah, almost a year.

Liza:  Oh, yeah.  God love me.  I was like, what year is it?  That is actually borne out of me becoming exhausted of trying to defend commercial fiction to people.

Sarah:  What?!

Liza:  Yeah, I know.

Sarah:  I can’t see why that would ever get tiresome.

Liza:  I don’t know.  I, I have no idea.  And I knew that it was, the first thing that came out of it was, I knew, after going to several romance novel conventions, that I wanted to set the book there.

Sarah:  So is this modeled on Romance Writers of America or Romantic Times?

Liza:  It is both.  It is both.

Sarah:  Awesome!

Liza:  Yeah, it is both, and it’s a little, even, bit of Comic-Con, ‘cause that’s the other kind of convention that I go to, ‘cause I needed to kind of turn up the volume a bit on it.  But it, this was back when, remember when RT actually had the pageants for the, the models?

Sarah:  The mangeant!

Liza:  Yeah –

Sarah:  Absolutely!  I was there for several years of the mangeant.

Liza:  [Laughs] It’s such a bad word.  Yeah.  This, I, and they don’t do it anymore, but that was such a moment for me, to be, like, it was, I knew that it was a, it was a, a setting that was just fertile ground.  So I said an ad, an ad agent who had to kind of find a cover, a cover model who was then going to become the spokesperson for this shower gel, and it was kind of this whole thing about how when somebody says a product is for women, it is never said in a positive way.  It is always very head-patting and is always very, it is not a good thing when you are creating products for women in a lot of people’s eyes, so it was basically taking that entire concept to task, about how she finally does get to – because she does the same thing.  Because she’s a woman in an ad agency, she only gets the products for women, and she takes it as a, an insult.

Sarah:  And it’s condescending.

Liza:  And it’s condescending, and so –

Sarah:  Much like chick lit and –

Liza:  Mm-hmm.

Sarah:  – women’s fiction.

Liza:  Yeah.

Sarah:  I mean, they’re, they’re, they’re terrible terms –

Liza:  Terrible.

Sarah:  – for really good books!

Liza:  Yep.  Yep.  They’re just books, actually.  We’re just writing books.  And yet, we have to –

Sarah:  Yes, but these got vagina cooties on ‘em.

Liza:  It does, and then the legs and the whole thing and – that’s why –

Sarah:  Oh, and shoes, do not forget the shoes.

Liza:  Shoes.  Shoes and little pieces of cake.  I mean, I –

Sarah:  [Laughs]

Liza:  – that’s how I knew that I – I can’t even – that’s why I knew that I had finally kind of done something right.  I mean, I had a full –

Sarah:  Shoes and little pieces of cake.

Liza:  – I had a full lady on Nowhere But Home.  It was a full lady, head and all.  I was like, this is, this is –

Sarah:  On a ladder!

Liza:  – this is the high life.  This is, this is what it feels like, guys, to have a full lady on your cover.

Sarah:  [Laughs]

Liza:  Course I, you know, Girl Before a Mirror only has shoes on it, but they’re cute shoes, so –

Sarah:  They’re super cute shoes.

Liza:  They’re super cute shoes, but – so we’ll see if I get another full lady at some point in my career.  And then –

Sarah:  Well, you got three-quarters of a lady on More Like Her.  Well, kind of a waist.

Liza:  I did, I did.  I got three, maybe three pairs of legs equals one full lady.  I don’t know.  I don’t know what the math is on that, but I think, think –

Sarah:  That’s a really good question.  Either that, or it’s like, like a –

Liza:  [Laughs] And, yeah, I got, I had feet on Conversations.  I had a, a, a half-naked lady on Seeing Me Naked because she’s, you, because the, the original cover for Seeing Me Naked was the two meringues on the side with little cherries coming out that looked like boobs?

Sarah:  [Laughs]

Liza:  That Barnes and Noble said they wouldn’t carry ‘cause it was too racy.  So hilarious.

Sarah:  [Laughs] I’m so sorry.

Liza:  It was such a, it was –

Sarah:  But if you’d stuck a dog on it, it would have been fine.

Liza:  Exactly.  So it turned out to be the one that they were comfortable with was a woman taking her top off was, was just fine.  So –

Sarah:  But what’s weird about that cover is that she’s taking her top off, and she’s wearing a top underneath.

Liza:  She is.  [Laughs] She’s like the little Russian nesting doll of tops.

Sarah:  Yeah, she’s got a lot of white shirts on.  She must spill a lot.

Liza:  Yeah, she’s, well, she is a chef.

Sarah:  [Laughs]

Liza:  And then Field Guide, I actually got a little girl, which is kind of a half lady, but she is a full body, so –

Sarah:  Yeah.

Liza:  – so, yeah, I’m moving on up.  I’m getting, I’m getting full people.  Yep.

Sarah:  So you’ve, so Girl Before a Mirror –

Liza:  Mm-hmm.

Sarah:  – with cute shoes and books, which is like –

Liza:  Yeah.

Sarah:  – that’s, like, the romance novelist’s –

Liza:  Come on.  Yeah.

Sarah:  – romance novel conference siren song.

Liza:  [Laughs]

Sarah:  Cute shoes and books, and we’re all like, what?  I’m listening.

Liza:  Yeah.  And, yeah.  So it is, and it’s essentially her arc into kind of finding the value and defining what is important for herself.  And not, stop worrying about the whole, like, you know – I think ‘cause we’re, I, I just became so exhausted of, this is important, and this is a thing that’s important.  This is a book that’s important, this is a band that’s important, and I kept wanting to go, to you.  Like, just because the things that you find important are usually heralded by whatever establishment there is doesn’t mean that they’re important to me or that they’re important at all.  And yes, I got it.  I don’t like it.

Sarah:  Mm-hmm.

Liza:  ‘Cause I think that’s the whole kind of head-patting thing, which is like, oh, you didn’t get it.  It’s like, nope, I got it.  I didn’t, I didn’t like it.

Sarah:  Nope, got it:  didn’t like it.

Liza:  Yeah!

Sarah:  Have a dissenting opinion.

Liza:  Because how many times do you read those reviews where it’s like, you know what, I read it six times, and I finally got through it the last time, but I really, I’m like, you didn’t like it.  You actually didn’t like that book, and it’s okay to say that.  Like –

Sarah:  Mm-hmm.

Liza:  – ‘cause I’ve been in too many book clubs where the women – and it’s, sadly, it’s women on women, which is where they don’t, you know, it’s like, the idea, the joy comes from having read what they feel is an important book and not from the –

Sarah:  Actually enjoying the book.

Liza:  – actually enjoying the book, and I think that that became kind of a theme of the book, which is she put at arm’s length all pleasure –

Sarah:  Yep.

Liza:  – because it was safer that way, and she received joy out of being somebody who looked like she was important, and so, ‘cause, so that same thread kind of goes all the way through it, which is why do we put ourselves at arm’s length from pleasure?  Why don’t you read a book that you actually like?  Like, what is so, how is your opinion of yourself so hinging on somebody thinking that you’re smart?

Sarah:  I have, I have dropped out of two book clubs like that.

Liza:  Ugh!

Sarah:  Like, you, you pick a book, and then someone suggests something that everyone actually wants to read –

Liza:  Yep.

Sarah:  – and everyone in the room goes, oh, my gosh!  That would be so much fun!  Oh, no, no, we can’t do that.  We can’t do that.  We have to do this one; we already decided.

Liza:  Yeah.

Sarah:  I’m like, yes, but no one actually wants to read that book.

Liza:  Right.  Or you just want to –

Sarah:  It’s a –

Liza:  – just want to have had read that book.

Sarah:  Yeah.

Liza:  They just want to have –

Sarah:  It’s a posturing.

Liza:  Mm-hmm.

Sarah:  But I also think that as you age and the number in the front of your age goes higher, you get exactly half that many give-a-shits on your card.  So, like, when you hit forty, your give-a-shit renewal is two.  You have two give-a-shits for the whole year.

Liza:  It depends, though.  It depends on which path you’ve gone down.

Sarah:  It’s true.

Liza:  If you are really invested in appearances or you are becoming, you are somebody who doesn’t – ‘cause usually it stems from I don’t, I don’t feel important, but if you see this book on my coffee table, you’re going to automatically think I’m important, whether I think that or not.

Sarah:  I stand corrected; you are totally right about that.

Liza:  Right, so I think if you are somebody who doesn’t do the work and who doesn’t just like what they like and doesn’t have the, kind of the cojones to sit there and go, like, these are the books I like, these are the movies I like, then you’re going to kind of keep, you’re going to double down on that.  You’re going to keep doubling down on that until you become kind of a caricature of that, whether or not – ‘cause we’ve all met women our age who are ridiculous, you know?  Who –

Sarah:  Meet a lot of people who are ridiculous.

Liza:  Ugh, my God.  Yeah, ‘cause –

Sarah:  And it, and it’s not just women, unfortunately.  [Laughs]

Liza:  No, it’s not.  But that, that tends to hurt me the most.  ‘Cause I’m like, that, ‘cause I’m like, we are sisters in this.  What are you doing?  You know?  Like, why, why, why are we against each other on this thing?  And I think it’s the whole kind of myth of scarcity and all that kind of stuff, but – I mean, ‘cause I did, I quit a book club for the same reason, which was, like, who, who suggested this Twinkie of a book?  And it was like, okay –

Sarah:  [Laughs]

Liza:  And then it was like, oh, I loved it, I enjoyed it, I read it in a week, but I hate it.  I was like, wait, what?  Do you hear yourself?  It’s like, why don’t you get to like a book, you know?  Why is it a Twinkie of a book?  It’s enraging.  Yeah.

Sarah:  It’s true.  And it’s all, it, it’s all tied together in how women police one another?

Liza:  Yes.

Sarah:  There’s a policing of how we’re supposed to look, how we’re supposed to dress, what we’re supposed to do, and you really see that in romance conferences.

Liza:  Yeah.

Sarah:  Especially because it’s a single-gender community.

Liza:  Yeah.

Sarah:  There are a pair of sociologists from the Pacific Northwest, Jen Lois and Joanna Gregson, and they study, in depth, through a, through a sociological perspective, communities of mostly women.  So they’ve studied –

Liza:  Oh, wow.

Sarah:  – women’s prison groups, they’ve studied young teen moms and homeschooling mothers, and then they, they have done, like, a multi-year study of romance and the romance community –

Liza:  Oh, wow.

Sarah:  – and the way in which they talk about the stigma and how romance writers work together to address the stigma, but the way in which the community is also self-policing is –

Liza:  Right.

Sarah:  – fascinating.

Liza:  Oh, my God, I, I need to know everything about that, I feel.  I –

Sarah:  [Laughs] I will send you all the links.

Liza:  Yes, please.  Yeah.  What, what are their findings?

Sarah:  Well, for one thing, the, it is, it is very common in single-gender communities that the aspects of that gender are hyperexpressed, so if you think about men in a prison, they are super muscular, they are –

Liza:  Right.

Sarah:  – super masculine, there’s a hypertrophied masculinity.  The same is true of women in single-gender communities.  There’s a hypertrophied aspect of femininity, so you see that –

Liza:  Oh, wow.

Sarah:  – in romance conferences like, well, you know – [laughs] – one of them, I did a podcast interview with them – I did two, actually, and in the second one, Joanna was like, yeah, I can’t wear my professor clothes to RWA.  That’s never going to work.

Liza:  Right.

Sarah:  And then she’s like, I’ve got, like, two dresses.  I alternate them for each –

Liza:  [Laughs]

Sarah:  – each year’s RITA awards, because I, I’m a professor!  I have tenure!

Liza:  Right.

Sarah:  I wear jeans all the time.

Liza:  Right, right.

Sarah:  And there’s a sort of a, a countdown to grooming before the conferences that we were talking about.  Like, oh, got to get my eyebrows waxed.

Liza:  Right!

Sarah:  Oh, got to get my manicure and my pedicure.  You have to dress accordingly.

Liza:  Right.  So, I can’t remember where I read it, but it was, there was something about calling it performing your gender, that there is –

Sarah:  Oh, that’s a really good description.

Liza:  Yeah.  That it’s kind of a, it’s a, it’s a, yeah, exactly, it’s a, it’s a disguise or it’s a dress that you put on, essentially.

Sarah:  An armor.

Liza:  Yeah, exactly.

Sarah:  And what’s interesting is, as more people, especially in the romance community, as more, more people are comfortable discussing the fluidity of their gender and how –

Liza:  Yeah.

Sarah:  – they choose to express their gender, there’re a lot more different appearances –

Liza:  Oh, interesting.

Sarah:  – that are, that are welcomed, which totally makes me happy.  That gives me all the joy.  [Laughs]

Liza:  Yeah.  Yeah!  I do, I do like a rich, full world.

Sarah:  Tell me about, about Girl Before a Mirror.

Liza:  Girl Before a Mirror is a, is a story of Anna, who is a perfectionist ad agent who is trying to make partner and thinks that this, finding this kind of, landing this account would do it, and so she goes to a romance novel convention to land the top Mister, you know, Mister Romance for the spokesperson of this shower gel that she’s trying to do.  In the process, what has led her there is a, kind of a self-help book that’s based on romance novels called Be the, Find, oh, God, Find the – it’s, it’s a self-help book based on romance novels.  I can’t remember the title right now.  God love me.

Sarah:  Be the Heroine, Find Your Hero?

Liza:  – Find Your Hero.  Thank you.  And the, that, that woman becomes kind of a mentor to Anna in a way that I hope that Anna becomes a mentor to a young, and underling named Sasha who is kind of –

Sarah:  Mm-hmm.

Liza:  – very much performing her gender at that point, and so it’s, I like the, the different generational female relationships in this one.

Sarah:  Mm-hmm.

Liza:  So the whole time she’s trying to, trying to kind of land this account, she is also falling in love with somebody who is very much a complicated man, who looks a certain way on the outside, and – who looks all the romance hero, is what I tried to build him as.  But of course there’re many more layers to that.  And in the end, I think she has to kind of find that arc of, that creating products for women is actually the highest compliment a woman can have.  Being a representative of the female gender is amazing, and I think she finally gets there to the end, ‘cause I think until then, what she wants is she wants to be important.  She wants to be, have the car accounts, have the shoe accounts, have the –

Sarah:  Mm-hmm.

Liza:  – you know, Coca-Cola, because that says to everybody else that she’s important, whether or not she thinks it herself.  And so, in the end, she has to kind of find what she finds important, which is embracing her femininity, and that that’s an important thing.

Sarah:  Wow!  Dude.

Liza:  Yeah.  Yeah.  Yeah.  Because I think it did come out of, and I’m sure you understand this very well, of constantly rationalizing to other people why I liked the things that I did and why my books aren’t just for your wife.  Why, maybe you can read them too.  And that I had a real problem with how women had to make that extra stop on the way to publication where it was like, okay, yes, you wrote this novel about a chef who makes last meals for the condemned, but now you have to stop in the women’s fiction room, and you don’t get to go to just writing books, and that, that enraged me on a, on a daily level.  So this book came out of that.

Sarah:  I can completely understand.

Liza:  Yeah, exactly.  Yeah.  Yeah, I think just the, the sneering down your nose at, at women who write, and it just, it just, that, that’s where this book was born out of.

Sarah:  And there’s a lot of sneering, because, you know –

Liza:  Ugh.

Sarah:  – once you stick a woman on something –

Liza:  Yep!

Sarah:  – then it’s automatically worth less and –

Liza:  Mm-hmm.  Yep.

Sarah:  – not, not really worth attention, except as some sort of weird outlier.

Liza:  No, and I think there’s always, you know, you always, people always talk about how it’s like, yeah, this one was, actually had some insight and – they’re always shocked by it, which is, you know, it’s, this is, this isn’t some, like, you know, earth-shattering, you know, all that kind of coded language for why this book actually was important, and it’s, it’s such, it’s such, it’s just such a crock.  It really is.

Sarah:  [Laughs]

Liza:  Of course it’s important.  Of course this voice needs to be heard.  Of, of course this story is important.  Women get to be heard – like, it’s just such, it’s such a, an absolute crock, it, it really is, and it’s a, it’s a lie that’s been kind of really perpetuated by, by those who, I think, like that they get to be part of, you know, inside the fence rather than outside of it, but it’s, it’s enraging to me.  Absolutely enraging to me.

Sarah:  So I want to ask you –

Liza:  Yes.

Sarah:  – about Pop-Up Video.

Liza:  Oh, yeah, yeah.

Sarah:  When you tell people about that –

Liza:  Yeah.

Sarah:  – do, does everyone go, [gasp!] I love that show!?

Liza:  Yeah.  Yep, yep, yeah.  Yeah, it was – and I loved that show.  Back in the, back in the ‘90s, and I remember having VH1, and, and I, you know, we didn’t have television as kids.  We were like little hippie kids –

Sarah:  [Laughs]

Liza:  – and whenever I used to go over to this, you know, you have that one terrible friend that lives on your block that actually has good TV that you always –

Sarah:  And then their parents let you watch.

Liza:  Exactly, and you’re like, oh, my God, I don’t care if this person’s terrible.  I’m watching, you, you have MTV.

Sarah:  [Laughs]

Liza:  So I would wa-, and I loved it!  I loved it!  So when I got the opportunity to work on it, it was, it’s, it’s amazing.  And it fit my personality perfectly, ‘cause I know just so much dumb stuff –

Sarah:  [Laughs]

Liza:  – that – exactly.  Just dumb stuff and dumb jokes.  It was a job tailor-made for me.  That was fun.

Sarah:  I miss that show –

Liza:  Yeah, yeah.

Sarah:  – so much.

Liza:  Yeah, yeah.  Yeah, I –

Sarah:  And what I loved about it was that – I was actually thinking about this yesterday, because, you know, I have kids who are ten and eight, and –

Liza:  [Laughs]

Sarah:  – you’re not supposed to curse –

Liza:  Right.

Sarah:  – in front of your kids –

Liza:  Right.

Sarah:  – and, like, we’re moving, and our house is –

Liza:  Ugh.

Sarah:  – weird, and we have staging furniture.  Like, weird people who match everything live here with us, but we never see them, and –

Liza:  Oh!

Sarah:  – like, it’s just uncomfortable, and I was like, kids, you get four curse words a day.  Use them in the house –

Liza:  Yeah.  That’s awesome.

Sarah:  – extra points for being grammatically correct –

Liza:  That’s awesome!

Sarah:  – but if you need to let rip with a giant F-bomb, it is okay.

Liza:  [Laughs] Yeah!

Sarah:  And so sometimes they make up silly songs, because, you know, ass rhymes with a lot of things.

Liza:  [Laughs]

Sarah:  Including gas, which is, like, their favorite thing to talk about!  ‘Cause they’re boys.

Liza:  That’s a gimme, that’s a gimme.  Yeah, I got that.

Sarah:  Right, but, you know, I was like, remember, you remember, guys, guys, guys, you can’t curse at school, don’t curse in front of other parents, and I’m like, you know, this is kind of bullshit, because most parents I know –

Liza:  Yep.

Sarah:  – the minute you get ‘em away from their kids, they’re like, fuck this noise!

Liza:  [Laughs]

Sarah:  So this is how we really talk –

Liza:  Right.

Sarah:  – and then we put on this sort of sanitized –

Liza:  Yeah.

Sarah:  – overwhelmingly positive persona in front of our kids sometimes, and I’m like, dude, I don’t have that kind of time, and –

Liza:  Yeah.

Sarah:  – the think about Pop-Up Video is that it was sort of revealing what was actually happening underneath this incredibly –

Liza:  Yes.

Sarah:  – glossy staged production.

Liza:  Mm-hmm.

Sarah:  It was like –

Liza:  Yeah.

Sarah:  – well, this makeup artist hated this girl and –

Liza:  Yeah, isn’t that great?  Yeah.

Sarah:  – painted her face with, like, something horrible.

Liza:  And that, and that was all, I mean, that, those, the researchers were amazing.  They would talk to people, and everything was, I mean, everything was legit, ‘cause it had to be, one fact had to be gone through by three different sources.  So you could never just have one source say it.  You had to make sure that three different people said it firsthand.  So everything on that show was real.  Like, it was just legitimate, yeah.

Sarah:  So, like, the rivalry between –

Liza:  Monica and Brandy on –

Sarah:  – Monica and Brandy.

Liza:  I know exactly who you were talking about, yep.

Sarah:  [Laughs]

Liza:  Yep.

Sarah:  That was the most amazing thing.  She’s wearing a real ruby in her belly button, and I’m like –

Liza:  Right?

Sarah:  – what?

Liza:  Yep.  Yeah.  And it, it makes you, it, it’s just all that, that’s why I love watching, like, even, like the DVD commentary stuff.  It’s like, I love knowing –

Sarah:  Oh, me too.

Liza:  – all the behind-the-scenes stuff, ‘cause, and it was, like, you would hear stories and – ‘cause there was, like, a ton of, like, we, ‘cause my, what I tended to be good at was kind of the aging divas, which was what I did.  I did a lot of the Madonnas, the Mariahs, and the Whitneys, R.I.P.  And then I did, one of my, one of our favorite videos that I did was the Hilary Duff video, which was the “So Yesterday,” which was hysterical, and one of the pieces of information we found out on that one was that was – oh, God, this is so embarrassing – and we didn’t know whether or not we were going to use it.  We ended up using it, you could see it in the video, was that on the day of the shoot, she had actually started her period for the very first time.  Now –

Sarah:  Oh, God!

Liza:  Yeah, and that’s why she was breaking out.  She had tons of acne and all this kind of stuff, and it was just such a tragic story, and we were like, oh, God, do we – well, of course we have to use it ‘cause it’s an, it’s, it’s, you know, it’s the, it’s a unique story for this thing, and it is So Yesterday, and the whole thing, and all that kind of stuff, but that’s the kind of stuff we heard, and it was actually really interesting.  And the, the, my last video that I did was the “Not Ready to Make Nice,” which was the Dixie Chicks video, and the research on that one was incredible, and that, that one was really, really, really cool to do.  I’m glad that was my last one, ‘cause I don’t think I could have done it justice any other time, but that’s –

Sarah:  What were some of the things that you learned about them and that whole set up in that video, ‘cause that song is very deep.

Liza:  Mm-hmm.  Yeah, it is.  Well, it, I think a lot of it, the, the, the cool stuff was, like, at some point, they were going to, before, I can’t remember what it was, but there was, like, a – God, they were going to set up nooses, almost, for themselves, and hang themselves, and, and it –

Sarah:  Gah!

Liza:  – one of them almost got throttled.  Like, it was a whole thing that there was this – and I think that, we couldn’t figure it out, how to, I think it’s in the video bit that we do pop some of that stuff, but there was a point where they almost literally choked themselves to death because of this, this bit they were trying to do, but –

Sarah:  Ugh!

Liza:  – yeah, but stuff like, but most of the stuff was about kind of everything that was going on at the, at the time of that video and all that kind of stuff, but – and how, at that time, ‘cause at the end she’s like, we’re still waiting, we’re still waiting?  And so we kind of used that, because the sad part about it was that they didn’t make another album after that.  Like, they –

Sarah:  No, they didn’t.  That was it.

Liza:  And so it, we kind of used the we’re still waiting, we’re still waiting thing at the end, which is like, you know, where’s the next album at?  You know, so –

Sarah:  They’ve all done side projects and –

Liza:  They have, yeah.

Sarah:  Do they even work together anymore?

Liza:  I know the two, the two, not Natalie Maines, but the two other girls are –

Sarah:  They’re sisters.

Liza:  Yeah, the sisters, they are, they’re doing, they have, like, great music.  I can’t remember what it is, but their stuff is great.  And Natalie Maines, that voice, come on.  That’s just, that’s just a great voice.

Sarah:  So did you do the Pop-Up Video for “Vogue”?

Liza:  No, no, and that, I think, that was, that was from the, the, the – we were on when they brought it back.

Sarah:  Ah!

Liza:  Yeah, so I was when it came back; I guess in 2011 it came back, so –

Sarah:  There are very few on YouTube, and I am really sad about this.

Liza:  I know, so am I, ‘cause I love the, the first video I did was Lauryn Hill; “Ex-Factor” was the first one I did.  And then I did, I have, my love of all loves is ‘90s R&B, so I did Lauryn Hill, “Ex-Factor,” and then I did SWV, “Weak,” which I loved.

Sarah:  [Gasp!]  I love that song!

Liza:  I mean, come on!

Sarah:  Oh, my God!

Liza:  That was one of my favorites, and we actually talked to one of the girls, and so it was just amazing, so even talking to her was just amazing.  So, and, so I got to do a bunch of ‘90s R&B, which is my dream come true.  But –

Sarah:   Dude!

Liza:  Then I –

Sarah:  It’s like we’re soul mates.

Liza:  I know!  And I think what you do at the beginning is, you’re like, oh, I’m going to, I don’t want to – ‘cause what happens is you get two videos a week, and then you have to sit in this bullpen –

Sarah:  [Laughs]

Liza:  – and you have noise-reduction headphones on, and then you have to proceed to listen to that video, listen to that song non-stop for every day, all day, for two weeks, for a week, essentially, ‘cause, and then –

Sarah:  And then you never want to hear that song again.

Liza:  – you never want to hear it again, so you’re, like, in the beginning you’re like, oh, let me, let me choose a song that I actually like.  That way it won’t be as bad.  And then, of course, you realize rather quickly that you can’t, it’s easier to make fun of stuff than it is to, like, actually talk about stuff that you like.

Sarah:  Yes.

Liza:  And I made the mistake of choosing, the one song that I actually liked besides “Not Ready to Make Nice” was Mumford and Sons, I did “The Cave,” which is actually a really great video.  It’s like this beautiful video done in India, and they’re all on, like, Mopeds and all kind of stuff, and, but they, it was just, it was just, I couldn’t do it.  So I gave, I actually got the Adele “Rolling in the Deep” video, and I actually gave that away, ‘cause I was like, I can’t, I can’t do it.  I can’t do it justice.  I can’t, I can’t make fun of this video.  I can’t make fun of Adele, so I’m not going to – I just gave it up, and then I took in its place a Pussycat Dolls video.  It’s a, it’s –

Sarah:  Have you seen – there is a video I have to send to you that I love watching if I’m, like, really bummed out?

Liza:  Mm-hmm?

Sarah:  So, Alicia Keys was giving a performance and then decided that, it, it, it became – I don’t know, she didn’t decide spontaneously; clearly all these people were ready, but she did this wonderful salute to ‘90s R&B?

Liza:  Oh, that’s awesome.

Sarah:  So first SWV came out –

Liza:  Oh, God!

Sarah:  – and then En Vogue came out –

Liza:  Oh, my – I saw this!  I saw –

Sarah:  – and then the last two were members of T, the remaining two members –

Liza:  Ah!

Sarah:  – of TLC came out, and everyone is, like, all these incredible performing artists from the ‘90s are all singing “Waterfalls,” and, like, even just thinking about it, my head gets all tingly!  Like, I love it so much!

Liza:  I just, like, I got goosebumps!  There’s, there’s nothing better than ‘90s R&B.  There’s nothing –

Sarah:  Oh, it’s so good.  It’s –

Liza:  – R&B, yeah.

Sarah:  A lot of my, I, I do the eBook sale tweets three times a day, and I sort of, it’s sort of, I think of it as my eBook sale numbers station, because it’s always 12:30, 3:30, and 9:30 Eastern, but we always lead off with a song lyric that’s been rewritten –

Liza:  That’s awesome!

Sarah:  – to be about eBooks, so it’s sort of like my version of being a numbers station.

Liza:  [Laughs]

Sarah:  Like, here come the eBook sales!  Only it’s not a creepy computerized voice, it’s just a song, but I, I mine the ‘90s R&B very deeply for those song lyrics –

Liza:  Oh, yeah.

Sarah:  – because I miss it so much!

Liza:  I know.  Spotify actually has a pretty good, they have a, a channel that’s all just ‘90s R&B, which is –

Sarah:  I know!

Liza:  – I appreciate very much.  Yep.

Sarah:  Do you know what the best one is?  My favorite?  Okay, it’s new jack swing, which is not technically the same as ‘90s R&B –

Liza:  Right.  Right.

Sarah:  – but Tony! Toni! Tone!’s new jack swing –

Liza:  Mm-hmm.

Sarah:  – in the background of the refrain, and it is never beeped out in all of the years that I’ve heard this on the radio, there is a guy in the background who says, and you can new jack swing on my nuts!

Liza:  [Laughs]

Sarah:  Now, I, I, I can’t isolate it.  I can’t tell you how much I want to have this as my ringtone, like, if somebody texts me, and you can new jack swing on my nuts!  Do-dit do-do-do-doot, do-do, do-dit, do-do-do-doot.

Liza:  What, what were they, what were they, ‘cause I, I just imagine at , like, the recording studio being like, we just need something, we just need something to fill this out here, like –

Sarah:  You can new jack swing on my nuts!

Liza:  – just, just, Terry, do you have something?  Like, I, I –

Sarah:  Nuts.  I have nuts that can –

Liza:  I can work something, something all morning.  I think I’ve got it, yeah.

Sarah:  So, so you know, radio stations’ll bleep out Nicki Minaj saying her real name, which is Onika, because someone might hear it badly and hear it the wrong way, but this guy in the background’s telling you to swing on his nuts, and it’s totally fine!  [Laughs]

Liza:  It’s just like, if you unpack it for, like, one minute, it’s actually, like – [laughs] – just unpacking that lyric, you’re like, why would anybody want anybody to swing on – [laughs more]

Sarah:  Let alone new jack swing on their nuts.

[Laughter]

Liza:  It’s so dumb.

Sarah:  Now you’re going to listen to that song and be like –

Liza:  Oh, my God, I can’t wait.  I can’t wait, actually.

Sarah:  – it’s the only thing you’ll be able to hear now.  [Laughs]

Liza:  Yeah, yeah.  [Laughs]

Sarah:  So, with – [laughs]

Liza:  Oh, God.

Sarah:  With Pop-Up Video, and it’s not on –

Liza:  Yeah.

Sarah:  – it’s not on the air anymore, much to my –

Liza:  No.

Sarah:  – great sadness, was there anything that you wish that you could have said or done or talked about in Pop-Up Video that you didn’t get to do, ‘cause you didn’t have that third source?

Liza:  God, no!  I don’t think we did.  I think everything that we found out –

Sarah:  Got on the air?

Liza:  Yeah, we got it, yeah.

Sarah:  That’s awesome.

Liza:  Yeah.

Sarah:  ‘Cause I remember you told me once that, like, you get one good makeup artist who is on set –

Liza:  That’s it!

Sarah: – and you’ve got all the information you need.

Liza:  Yeah.  Yeah, exactly.  And you can usually find two other sources that will back it up if you ask, you know, kind of like you know already.  But yeah, it was great.  I mean, one of the big ones that I did was “Heartbreak Hotel,” which was one of Whitney Houston’s last ones, and it was with her, Kelly Price, and Faith Evans, and it was just this, it’s a great song.

Sarah:  Oh, that is a very good song.

Liza:  Yeah.  It’s, and it’s a great video.  And so we actually had a bunch of information on that one, and it was – even stuff like, you know, how, if you know the, the “Heartbreak Hotel” video, like, it, the last shot is, like, kind of a helicopter shot of Whitney Houston on the, on the, the shore, and she’s kind of walking and this whole thing, and of course what we found out was it’s not Whitney Houston at all.  It’s like, it’s a body double, and they couldn’t, Whitney Houston took the dress with her, so she’s wearing, like, a, a sheet, ‘cause –

Sarah:  [Laughter]

Liza:  – they couldn’t redo it again?  And, like, all of the, there’re, like, a few furs, like the, oh, the girl in the end actually has a fur on, but the only person who got a real fur, of course, was Whitney, and it was like, so, like, all this kind of great, great information about, just about, like, stuff like that that we got and, and from, I think it was a makeup, I think it was the costume girl, actually, who talked to us on that one, but, so she knew just some great stuff about that.  But, yeah.

Sarah:  When you, when you – ‘cause remember, back then, you know, music videos were an –

Liza:  Mm-hmm.

Sarah:  – enormous big deal, like –

Liza:  Yeah.

Sarah:  – I can remember, I remember in high school the morning after Michael Jackson’s –

Liza:  Mm-hmm, yeah.

Sarah:  – “Black or White” –

Liza:  Yep.

Sarah:  – premiered, and they did that thing where people’s heads morphed into one another –

Liza:  Yep.

Sarah:  – like, one guy would turn his head and suddenly it was a guy with dreads, and then it was Tyra Banks, and then it was somebody else, and that was, like, the most advanced technology –

Liza:  Yeah.

Sarah:  – we had ever seen.

Liza:  Yep.

Sarah:  Everyone on my bus was talking about that the entire ride to school.

Liza:  Right!  Well, I remember every single time they talked about, like, the number one video, it was, like, “Sledgehammer”?  The “Sledgehammer” video by Peter Gabriel.

Sarah:  Oh!

Liza:  Not, not for anything like A-ha, like the “Take On Me” video, which was all, you know – and there were always the same videos that had totally taken it to another level, but –

Sarah:  Mm-hmm.

Liza:  – and then, of course, you look at, even, like, “Money for Nothing.”  Remember, like, Dire Straits, where they had the, the computer –

Sarah:  Computer guys!  Oh, that was hugely expensive.

Liza:  I mean, that was hugely expensive, and you look at it now, and it’s just, oh, bless their hearts!  You know?

Sarah:  [Laughs]

Liza:  Just zillions for the little computer guys moving stuff and –

Sarah:  Especially because if you look at A-ha, you know a lot of that had to have been hand drawn.

Liza:  Oh, all of it.  You know, all of it was.  Yeah.

Sarah:  Because there was no CGI back then.

Liza:  No, no.  No!

Sarah:  And bless that guy’s heart, he can still sing that note.

Liza:  [Laughs]

Sarah:  Like, how does that work?

Liza:  That song never, I never grow tired of that song.  I never grow tired of A-ha.

Sarah:  Oh, no.

Liza:  No.  “Take On Me”?  Forget it.  That’s a classic.

Sarah:  Oh –

Liza:  A classic.

Sarah:  – we have a massive playlist on, on an old iPod that lives permanently in my husband’s car.

Liza:  [Laughs]

Sarah:  It’s connected to the stereo, and the first song is A-ha, because it starts with A, and so my kids request it.

Liza:  See?  ‘Cause it’s great!  It’s a great song!  Yeah.

Sarah:  It’s a fabulous song!

Liza:  Yeah, I know, I know.  [Laughs]

Sarah:  I, I honestly miss music videos –

Liza:  Mm-hmm.

Sarah:  – because I loved the ones that were, you know, short films that told a story?

Liza:  There’re some great ones.  I mean, there’re some, there’re some, there are some great videos, actually, like –

Sarah:  Oh, yeah.

Liza:  I know that I always look forward to, like, there’s a band called Lord Huron who has beautiful videos that are these, just these gorgeous kind of, like, like landscape and running and just this beauty –

Sarah:  Mm-hmm.

Liza:  – and the songs are gorgeous and – but I, there’s some still, there’s some still great videos out there.

Sarah:  I know; there’s just no, there’s no, we just, we need a channel, right?

Liza:  Yep.  Yeah.

Sarah:   We just need one channel that’s devoted to just music videos.  Like, what would that be like?

Liza:  I don’t know.  I mean, I think if you had, like, a channel like that that was like, just, like, music television or something like that, and they would, like, only play videos.

Sarah:  Yes!  Oh, my God, that’s the perfect name!

Liza:  Yeah, exactly.  And –

Sarah:  We could have them all day!

Liza:  Yeah, and, like, they would have people like DJs, but like, I don’t know what you would call them, but something like, maybe like video J or VJ or something like that, that would come and like –

Sarah:  Oh!  Oh, that’s a very good idea.

Liza:  Yeah, but they would, like, you know, kind of bring in the new thing, they would have countdowns, I don’t know.  I, I think I’m dreaming –

Sarah:  And you could do –

Liza:  – dreaming too big at this point.  I think I just –

Sarah:  – you could do, like, hours of specialized programming –

Liza:  Oh, my God.

Sarah:  – that addressed, like, a specific type of thing?

Liza:  Just, like, you know, just MTV raps or, like, metal or whatever.  I don’t even know.  It’s just, it feels like just a dream, just a bridge too far.  You know, I just feel like it’s, like, that’s just a dream, you know, like, a fantasy to have, like, an entire channel for just music.

Sarah:  And used to be like having a music video was a very big deal.

Liza:  Yeah.  Yeah.

Sarah:  I remember learning that Carly Jepsen’s “Call Me Maybe” –

Liza:  Yep.

Sarah:  – was made possible in part by a Canadian government grant.  They have a –

Liza:  Was it really?

Sarah:  – government program to help Canadian artists make music videos to compete in the American market, and so at the end of the video – which is all about romance novels, by the way; there’re, like, five –

Liza:  Is it really?

Sarah:  You’ve never seen this?  Oh, my God.

Liza:  No, I’ve never seen it.

Sarah:  Oh, my God, you must watch the video.  It is amazing!  It’s very, very tongue-in-cheek, and it’s adorable, and it’s “Call Me Maybe,” which, who doesn’t want to listen to that.

Liza:  That’s amazing.

Sarah:  There’s a wonderful sequence with romance, with romance novels in it, there’s a bunch of Harlequins in it.

Liza:  What!

Sarah:  Yes!  Oh, yeah.

Liza:  ‘Kay, I didn’t know this.  I didn’t know this!

Sarah:  Okay, this is, this is one of the very few areas in which I can be like, yeah, I knew about this back before –

Liza:  [Laughs]

Sarah:  – but before Justin Bieber tweeted about it and made it a big song, somebody sent it to me as a Friday video from Canada because it was getting a lot of play in Canada, and they were like, look, look!  There’re Harlequins, there’re Harlequins in the video!  This is amazing!  And I’m like, this is so cute!  And it was on the website; then, like, three or four months later, I started hearing it on the radio, and I was like, what the hell is going on?

Liza:  Oh, my God!

Sarah:  And so at the end – of course now the dog is digging a hole in the carpet to try to find –

Liza:  [Laughs]

Sarah:  I can’t have a podcast without pet noise in some way, and since you’re at work, my dog is stepping up to, stepping up to the plate.  So, at the end of the video there’re all these credits for, thanking the Canadian government –

Liza:  Oh, my God.

Sarah:  – for having the, the grant so that she could make a video and compete in the American market.  So it used to be like, it’s a government program, for God’s sake!

Liza:  That’s amazing.

Sarah:  There’s an, there’s a music video program –

Liza:  ‘Cause, ‘cause, ‘cause I know the other one of hers, which is “I Really Like You,” which is all Tom Hanks.

Sarah:  Yes.

Liza:  You’ve seen that one, right?  Which is a delight.

Sarah:  Oh, it’s adorable.

Liza:  But I didn’t know, so, okay, I need to see that.  I need to see that.  I can’t believe I actually haven’t seen that video.

Sarah:  You, you must see that –

Liza:  It’s, it’s a severe failing.

Sarah:  – and then when you’re feeling crappy –

Liza:  Yep.

Sarah:  – you need to go watch Alicia Keys bring SWV on stage –

Liza:  Oh, my God.

Sarah:  – and, like – ‘cause I think it was Chris Brown that remixed or, or –

Liza:  Yeah!  Yeah.

Sarah:  – put a song, and I was like, no, no, no, no, I want the original song.

Liza:  Yeah, I know.

Sarah:  I want the first one –

Liza:  I know.

Sarah:  – which I think is a sample of something else, but I don’t care!

Liza:  Yeah, yeah.

Sarah:  There wasn’t enough SWV.

Liza:  No, there’s never enough SWV, though.  Yeah.  Who, that for, for “Weak,” if you look, look back on that video, it’s about your fighter versus my fighter.  It’s like box-, it’s like a boxing – ?

Sarah:  Yep.

Liza:  It’s the weirdest video in the entire world, and I have no – it’s just, it’s fantastic, yeah.

Sarah:  Yep.

Liza:  Your fighter against my fighter.

Sarah:  So what are you walking on now?

Liza:  Book seven.  Book seven is –

Sarah:  You go, girl!

Liza:  I know.  So, it’s –

Sarah:  [Sings] Bring that dump truck full of cash, bring it to the door!

Liza:  Yeah, right?  Yeah.  [Laughs] So we’re going to announce it soon, hopefully, and – ‘cause it’s, it’s going to be, a lot of people are going to be very happy about which, which book this is.

Sarah:  Yay!

Liza:  So I’m very, very, very excited about that.  I can’t wait for it to get done for a lot of reasons.  And then just working at BuzzFeed Scripted and, and being around people who I’m seventy-eight years older than.

Sarah:  [Laughs]

Liza:  I just, I can’t.  I, I, I don’t even – they bound.  They just bound around.

Sarah:  [Laughs]

Liza:  They just bound around.  And you know, I, I’m like, there’re like these towers, and there’s like stairs and stuff.  They don’t take fucking, they don’t take elevators.  They just bound down.  I’m like, are we really not taking – ?  There’s a stair; they, they’re like, why take the – ?  Just take the stairs!  I’m like, oh, my God!

Sarah:  [Laughs]

Liza:  Like, how much energy do you guys have?

Sarah:  And where did you get it, and can you give me some?

Liza:  Can you give me some?  Exactly.  So I just, I just try to keep up, but, yeah, they’re adorable, and millennials are actually pretty great.

Sarah:  I think so.

Liza:  They’re creative and lovely, and they are, they are workers.  Their, their work ethic is bananas.  I get here at 9 a.m., and half of ‘em are already here, and half of ‘em are here when I leave at 6.  So they’re, they, this next generation is, we’re going to be okay.

Sarah:  I think so.

Liza:  Yeah, yeah.  Until –

Sarah:  Will, will you come back on the podcast when you’ve got cool shit going on and BuzzFeed has scripted things and –

Liza:  [Laughs] Yes.

Sarah:  – episodes that you’ve written are airing, and you can give us the behind-the-scenes podcast?

Liza:  Yes.  Right?  How cool would that be?

Sarah:  Yes, please!

Liza:  Oh, yes.  Exactly.  Yes, please.  Yes.

Sarah:  Okay, yay.

Liza:  Yay!

[music]

Sarah:  And that is all for this week’s episode.  I want to thank Liza Palmer for talking with me and to BuzzFeed for giving her that rad conference room.

If you have questions or suggestions, you are so welcome to email us at sbjpodcast@gmail.com.  The books that we mentioned, along with links to some of the Pop-Up Videos that I was able to find, will be in the podcast entry, also known as the show notes, at smartbitchestrashybooks.com.

This podcast was brought to you by InterMix, publisher of New York Times bestselling author Jennifer Ashley’s A Mackenzie Clan Gathering.  Return to the tumultuous and passionate world of the Mackenzie clan as a family celebration is shaken by an unexpected danger.  Available November 17th.

The podcast transcript this week was sponsored by Jenna Sutton, author of the Riley O’Brien & Company series, published by Berkley and available in print and eBook.  The second novel in the series is available for pre-order now and will be released on December 1st.  In Coming Apart at the Seams, pro football player Nick Priest is trying to win a second chance with denim heiress Teagan O’Brien.  You can read an excerpt at jennasutton.com or connect with Jenna at facebook.com/jennasuttonauthor or @jsuttonauthor on Twitter.

The music you are listening to was provided by Sassy Outwater.  You can find her on Twitter @SassyOutwater.  This is Adeste Fiddles by Deviations Project.  This is pretty much the only music collection for the holidays that you need.  Or at least that I need, ‘cause I don’t need that much holiday music.  This track is “The Dance of the Sugar Plum Fairy,” originally composed by Tchaikovsky as part of The Nutcracker Suite and made way more awesome Deviations Project, because that’s apparently what they do.

Future podcasts will include many discussions about romance novels, because that’s what we do here, but in the meantime, on behalf of Jane and Liza Palmer and myself, we wish you the very best of reading.  Have a great weekend.

[amazing ballet music]