658. Romance and Penetrative Sex: A Conversation With Jane Buehler

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Sarah Wendell: Hello there and welcome to episode number 658 of Smart Podcast, Trashy Books. I’m Sarah Wendell, and today my guest is Jane Buehler. Today we are going to have a very vulnerable, honest, and emotional conversation about the prevalence of penetrative sex in romance and what happens if a writer decides to create a character with pelvic floor pain, for whom that kind of sex isn’t possible? Well, let’s find out! Jane Buehler’s new book The Fire Apprentice is out next week, and we are going to talk about the book and the series, of course, but we’re also talking about the asexual spectrum, body changes from menopause, reactive desire, and Kegels.

I want to be very clear about some of the topics we’re talking about in this episode, so here is a pretty comprehensive list: we are going to be talking about vaginismus, vulvodynia, asexuality, demisexuality, effective performance of Kegels, sexual trauma, traumatic effects of bullying, and the paltry state of scientific research, especially now, into conditions that affect people with vulvas and vaginas.

I will have many, many links to different things that we’re talking about in this episode in the show notes, and you can find that at smartbitchestrashybooks.com/podcast under episode 658.

I also have a compliment. Hurray! This week’s compliment is for Shannon P.

Shannon: If puppies, kittens, baby sloths, and baby pygmy hippos had a social network, they would all be sharing and liking pictures of you.

If you would like a compliment of your own or if you’d like to support the show, please have a look at patreon.com/SmartBitches.

This is a, as I said, very vulnerable and honest conversation, and I am extremely grateful to Jane for pitching this to me and coming on and having this wonderful, honest conversation, and I hope you enjoy it too. On with the podcast.

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Emily Jane Buehler: I am Emily Jane Buehler, and for about nine years I’ve been writing lighthearted romantasy with fairies and nature-based magic.

Sarah: What an absolutely fantastic introduction! So your latest book is The Fire Apprentice. Congratulations, first of all.

Jane: Thank you! Thank you.

Sarah: The fantasy genre seems to have caught up to you!

Jane: [Laughs] I know. The last time we did this, I remember cozy fantasy had, like, just started, and we were like, There’s this new term to use! Now it’s just everywhere.

Sarah: Yes. It is, it is everywhere. I did a whole article for Smart Bitches After Dark today about portmanteaus and how important it is that the romance part of the portmanteau be present, ‘cause that signals the HEA. It’s like a whole argument that I had with myself. I love when there’s a new term, and then all of a sudden it’s like, Oh yes! That is the name for the thing that I like that I was calling something else! It is so great –

Jane: Yeah. Yes.

Sarah: – and it’s really lovely when the genre, when, when the industry catches up with you and what you’ve already been writing.

Jane: Yes. Yes.

Sarah: No pivot! You’re already here.

Jane: Yes. [Laughs]

Sarah: So tell me about The Fire Apprentice.

Jane: Well, it’s the fifth book in the series, but it is a standalone. I try to make them all standalone. In The Fire Apprentice, a single mom who was once seduced and betrayed by a fairy has her child stolen by a dragon. And I know that sounds stressful, but you very quickly find out that the dragon is not going to hurt the child. So her child is half-fairy, and dragons form bonds with fairy children. She just didn’t know that because she’s a human. But the blacksmith’s apprentice is the only one in the village with any idea how to find the dragon, and the reason he knows so much about dragons is because he is also a fairy, so she has to learn to trust him to help her go find her child.

Sarah: I love the part where you’re like, And we figure out very quickly the baby is going to be fine.

Jane: Yes.

Sarah: Very important that you have high stakes, but also adjust expectations for those stakes.

Jane: Yes, because I don’t want anyone to think there’s going to be a child kidnapped through this whole book who’s at all in distress.

Sarah: I mean, honestly, I mean, I could totally be fine with being kidnapped by a dragon right now?

Jane: Yeah, I think that having a big dragon to protect me might also be nice, so.

Sarah: This is part of a series, but it works as a standalone. Can I ask how you, how you do that as a writer?

Jane: Well, I often have way too much backstory in my opening chapter, and then I have to work to be like, Do we need this? Can we cut this? Because I, I want it to get going pretty quickly? So there’s, it’s all in one world, and there are some, like, there is this one arc because, basically, when I wrote the first book I didn’t really know what I was doing, so there’s three villains in that book.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Jane: And so everything ties up nicely, but, like, one of them’s still hanging around the village, you know, not causing trouble anymore but still kind of there; one of them is locked up; and so I also just, there were a bunch of interesting characters who had sort of loose ends, so books one through six kind of finish that arc. They, they tie up these ends; the different villains have their finales too. But I, each one’s a new couple, and I try to very quickly let you know everything you might need to know from the past books. Like, for example, in this one, that our heroine once upon a time was seduced by a fairy and had a child, so. But each one’s a different couple, and I don’t like to do a lot of that bring back the old characters, ‘cause I always feel super awkward when I read those books where the old characters are just showing up and, like, hanging out, and it’s always like, but we don’t, this isn’t your story! Get out of here!

Sarah: [Laughs]

Jane: So. Yeah. So it’s a totally new couple.

Sarah: Now, I want to talk to you specifically, because you wrote to me about your books and you said:

>> I’m excited to contribute to a conversation about highlighting more stories that break away from the prevalent types of sex scene.

And you mentioned that the arc that you’ve followed regarding the love scenes reflects other realities.

Jane: Well, I think the origin of this idea was that I have some pelvic floor issues that can make certain types of sex painful.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Jane: And so I, I have to say I have, like, the most kind and patient partner ever, but I still often struggle with just, like, feeling like a failure if, like, a certain type of sex doesn’t happen. And, you know, I’ve, I’ve been reading, like, almost one hundred percent romance novels these days, and I’ve always been totally fine with reading steamy sex scenes and, you know, in the beginning that was like my favorite part, but just recently I have started to notice them more and just notice how almost every romance novel has sex scenes with some sort of penetration in them. And you know, sometimes it happens right in the beginning, and then they, you know, they form their emotional attachment after. Sometimes it’s like these stages where you’re working up to it. But it’s just always there, with a few exceptions, and I guess I’ve started to wonder if perhaps the persistence of this one type of sex scene is creating a misconception that, like, for a heterosexual couple the penis-in-vagina sex is like the main event, and everything else is leading up to it. I don’t, like, I feel like that’s true, but I don’t think it’s true. So I have this big struggle because I always sort of feel like I’m a failure if I don’t manage to do that kind of sex, but –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Jane: – I don’t think it’s true that it’s necessary or that it’s better than anything else. And so I had been wanting to include a character that had some kind of pelvic floor pain, and when I was planning out how to do it and where the story would go, I, I just decided I didn’t want to have the issue magically resolved, because it can be such a frustrating issue. Sometimes it just seems like there is no solution, and I just thought it would be a disservice to, to have a character who has it and then it just clears up at the end.

Sarah: Yeah!

Jane: She meets the right guy, or the fairies have some magical cure for it. So I, I did not want to go there, so I went ahead, and so in The Fire Apprentice there are plenty of steamy scenes, but they don’t ever have that one kind of sex, and they, they still have a Happily Ever After, and they talk about it, and they kind of just find what works for them. So yeah. So that’s like, was sort of my first idea was just to not have that kind of scene, but now I have this whole other list of, like, Oh, I want a love scene that does this, and I want a love scene that does that! And I just have this whole, like, list of things I’m excited to write that I don’t often see but that I think should be represented. So.

Sarah: So you have possibly the greatest google search history for any romance novelist ever at this point!

Jane: Yes.

Sarah: Pretty much.

Jane: Yeah.

Sarah: So I am, I, I would love to hear more about this, ‘cause I know you mentioned when we were emailing that this book has a heroine with pelvic floor issues and pain during intercourse, which is, is that vulvodynia or vulva – there’s another word?

Jane: So vaginismus is the one I’ve read the most about, but they’re, I know they’re both, they both involve pain, but I think different causes, but I don’t, I don’t remember the details right now. But I will say that they are both discussed in Jen Gunter’s book –

Sarah: Yes!

Jane: – on – I have it right here – The Vagina Bible, which I learned about when you interviewed her, and that book was actually the first place I read the name of the term, which was hugely helpful. So –

Sarah: Oh wow.

Jane: – I said – yeah, I had, like, I have a great doctor, and she had sent me to a physical therapist, but no one ever said the term, or if they did I didn’t, like, absorb it the way I needed to. So yeah, so I was very grateful, because I was just struggling to find any information, and having that term to search, it helped a lot, but I will say there’s still not a lot out there, so.

Sarah: I remember Jen Gunter saying in her interview that pain management for vaginismus and vulvodynia are like her bread and butter. Like, that’s the main focus of her practice, at least at that time; I don’t know if it’s evolved at this point. But it’s, it’s kind of incredible how much your life can change when you know the name of the thing?

Jane: Yes, yes. And just feeling, like realizing I’m not the only person –

Sarah: Ooh, no.

Jane: – and that there are other – ‘cause you feel so isolated, which is another reason I wanted to write about it, just because, just to, yeah, let other people know that you are not alone, and there are loads of people who have this, even if the medical community hasn’t put in the time they should or, you know, not, like, the research has not, has not kept up.

Sarah: I mean, there’s like a whole list that we could probably do a whole podcast series on of things about women’s bodies that doctors don’t pay a lot of attention to –

Jane: Yes.

Sarah: – or haven’t in the past. Now it’s becoming more prevalent.

Jane: If anyone needs information about frozen shoulders, I’m all on top of that now – [laughs] – ‘cause that is another middle-aged women issue, and I had one last year, and it was like, you know, the doctor, the PT, the special doctor, ortho-something, everyone’s telling me something different. Oh, oh, it’s going to thaw on its own; or you have to, It’s going to be two years; It’s going to be eight months; and finally I had the doctor who was like, You keep having different things because nobody knows, because there’s no money in frozen shoulders, because, like, the treatment is just physical therapy, time, and then they can, like, inject saline into you to get you moving, and that doesn’t cost a lot. So yeah, I, that was my other big, like, women’s issue of the year that there’s not good information on.

Sarah: It, that one drives me up the wall, because on one hand it is incredibly common. So many menopausal women have problems with their shoulders, have frozen shoulders, can’t raise their arms, can’t figure out what happened, it just hurts a lot. And yet the solution is so easy, you’d think it would be like a common thing, but it’s not. Like, I’ve, I’ve met so many women who are like, Yeah, I’m having pain with my shoulders. I’m like, Yeah, that’s a menopause thing. You’d think that, you know, it’s, it’s clear on the other side of your abdomen from your uterus. What’s, what’s that got to do with it?

Jane: Right, right.

Sarah: But no, uh-uh! It’s all part of the same thing.

Jane: Yeah, and just know you can come back – I have now had, both of them have frozen, thankfully not at the same time –

Sarah: Oy!

Jane: – and I am back. I can, I can unsnap my bra again. That was the test. When I realized it was freezing was because I was like, I can’t unsnap my bra tonight!

Sarah: [Laughs]

Jane: And then my arm, like, over the course of a week, I couldn’t put it behind my back anymore, and so that was sort of my test. Like, I’m back! I can reach!

Sarah: That is – and, and you don’t think, you don’t think that’s menopause. You don’t think that’s part of a larger concept. It’s like, What did I do? Did I pull my shoulder? Did I lift the groceries too much? Did I slam the door too hard? What happened? No! No one knows why. Not very helpful.

Jane: Yes.

Sarah: Now with the hero-, heroine who is in a fantasy world, who has pelvic floor issues, I’m assuming you don’t call those issues what they are in the text. How do you talk about them?

Jane: Right. I kind of, like, I don’t want it to seem inauthentic to the world, which –

Sarah: No, of course!

Jane: …has, like, the technology I would say is like 1700s, like, sort of –

Sarah: Yeah.

Jane: You know, they have carts and horses –

Sarah: Yeah.

Jane: – they don’t have automobiles. So I just try to stick with the terms they would think about, like pain with sex. So she doesn’t know about her pelvic floor; she just knows that it hurts when this one act happens. And so, like, she talked to the village healer and, you know, the people who help babies be born, and they had some ideas for, like, massaging things down there or, you know, the treatments are sort of described in kind of an old-fashioned way. I do have, so the fairies in my book tend to be, like, a little more in tune with things than the humans, and so at the end she does talk to the fairy healer and get some new ideas. Kind of one of the things I love the most is whenever I want there to be technology that wouldn’t fit in, that’s when I, I’m like, Magic happens! And so they actually, the thing in this book is there are fairy vibrators, and they make them with, like, having hummingbirds, like, flutter around while the magic is, like, going into the object? [Laughs]

Sarah: For the record, if anyone is sitting around with like a big pot of money, hummingbird vibrators would be a marvelous invention. I don’t mean like actual hummingbirds; I mean, like, hummingbird fluttering, like maybe a bird sculpture on it? You know.

I knew there’s pelvic floor issues in your heroine in this book, and I was trying to think: there aren’t that many romances right now that deal with it.

Jane: I will say, I think the, the best list I’ve seen is on your blog, because there was a, is it the Rec League?

Sarah: Yep!

Jane: And someone asked about this, and it was only like maybe eight books were recommended? And some of them involved a lot of trauma, so I, I kind of steered clear of those, but there was one that was like an actual, like, old-school Harlequin romance, and I, I’m not well schooled in those, but –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Jane: – I wanted to read it, and so I was, like, kind of horrified because it’s like her dad blackmails her into marrying his business partner because her child needs surgery, and he’s like, I won’t pay for it unless you marry this guy I want you to marry, so that was, like, very objectionable, but I thought the description of vaginismus was, I thought was very good, and they are, like, using dilators to try to solve the problem? They presented the solution as, like, a very simple physical solution, and it worked, and I know that might be true for some people, but I think maybe later we’re going to talk more about other, other aspects of it. But I, I did think it was well done.

And then there was one that was a short story call-, and I think it was called “Patient,” and it’s a couple, and they’re really in love, they want to be together, but they can’t have sex, and they’re going to therapy to work on this, and it, it doesn’t, it’s a short story; it doesn’t really have a happy ending in terms of this, but I thought the way everything was described was just, like, so on-the-ball and exact. Like, if you want to know what it feels like, I thought that was very, very good. So.

Oh, and then The Perfect Crimes of Marian Hayes –

Sarah: Yes.

Jane: – by Cat –

Sarah: Cat Sebastian.

Jane: So that’s one – yeah – that one doesn’t have penis-in-vagina sex, and it’s, she has some trauma in her past, and they don’t really get explicitly into why, but she’s just like, I just don’t want that kind of sex anymore, and the guy’s okay with it, so.

Sarah: Okay!

Jane: That’s like, yeah, the only one I’ve seen recently.

Sarah: So how much do you want to talk about regarding the different kinds of sex that you explored for this book?

Jane: There’s one idea that I really, really want to share, but it doesn’t actually make it into this book, because this heroine, I, I wrote this maybe two years ago? And when I came back to it, it had the pelvic floor issues, but I also realized this heroine is like one hundred percent allosexual. She’s, like, totally into it. It felt sort of like once you take that one kind off the table, it really kind of opens up like, Ooh! Well, I’ve got, you know, we could try this! We could try that! And I, I will say I write a lot of things and then the second time I go through it like a year later I’m like, Oh no! No, that one doesn’t work.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Jane: …That didn’t age well! So they do get refined a lot. But I would love to share these, these other ideas I have, and these are sort of for future books? Have you ever heard of reactive desire or responsive desire? So –

Sarah: Yes.

Jane: – I had never heard this term until recently, and I love it. So some people do not ever feel just spontaneously aroused? And so it’s sort of like you kind of got to get started before you start to feel aroused, and so, you know, you might, it might come about because the couple really likes each other and they want to share intimacy, but I think in romance novels, because we want to be so careful about consent, which I think is really important, but with the idea of enthusiastic consent, the people are always going to be, like, turned on before they get started?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Jane: And so I think that if you don’t understand that your body does not experience spontaneous desire, that it’s always going to kind of need to get started before you feel it, it can be really confusing, because you, you just kind of never know, like, well, should I go ahead with this?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Jane: You know, I’m not really sure I want to. And I’ve been thinking of, like, I’ve been thinking about the term enthusiastic consent and trying to come up with another good term, and I thought maybe comfortable consent –

Sarah: Ohhh!

Jane: – because the idea that, like, you need to be comfortable enough with your partner that you know that, like, if you get started and it’s not working that it’s okay to stop, and that it’s okay to be like, Hey, I’m, I’m not feeling it, you know. And, and that it’s not a bad thing, or nobody failed and, you know, you might even continue in some other nontraditional way, but, but just knowing you can say that, so there’s a level of trust involved that I really like. But I, I really don’t know that I’ve ever seen this in a romance novel, because we always want to be so careful to show that both people are into it? And so I, I, I’m not even sure how to include it, but I definitely think that should be in there just to, you know, help more people see themselves in romance novels.

Sarah: That is the goal, right? To present this basic set of human core emotions and feelings as authentically as possible to the people and all the different people who read romance. It’s a bit of a tension, isn’t it, between the idealized way that romance presents humanity – there’s a lot of idealism in how, how romances function – and then the reality of how we are all messy and different and have unique things about us that no one else, that we think no one else does. If I’ve learned anything on the internet it’s that, no, you absolutely have something in common with someone else. You’ll just figure it out later.

I, I know that writing can teach you a lot about yourself and about romance, because obviously we’ve been talking about how romance applies to sex and how romance portrays sex and what sex is the most valued?

Jane: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: But I’m curious about some of the things that you have learned while writing.

Jane: Well, I guess the most exciting thing, which has only been like the past two years, is that I have learned about the asexual spectrum and that I’m probably somewhere on it, and I have to say it’s entirely due to romance novels, so –

Sarah: Wow!

Jane: – read it there. There were actually three novels that kind of led to this discovery, and it was really, it was like a eureka moment. It was not subtle. So –

Sarah: Romance is so cool!

Jane: So yeah. I first, the first one was, I was reading reviews of Something Fabulous by Alexis Hall, and I saw somebody use the word demisexual for one of the heroes in that book, and I thought, Oh, I don’t know that one yet! And I got out the dictionary and looked it up, and when I saw the definition, which is that you don’t feel sexual attraction until you have a deep emotional attachment with someone, I just thought, Oh! That’s me! I didn’t know there was a word for that! So it was like this ah-ha moment, but at the same time that, like, I didn’t realize that demisexual is on the asexual spectrum. Like, it was so far off my radar that I just thought, Oh, it’s just a dictionary word that happens to describe this way that I am, and kind of just moved on from it.

About six months later I was reading The Romantic Agenda by Claire Kann, and that has an asexual heroine who, like, knows she’s asexual; she’s known since high school; and I had actually picked up the book because I just thought it would be interesting to learn more about that? And there’s a scene where, her name’s Joy, and she and the other characters are, like, sitting around on the sofa, and she’s describing how she feels when she sees, like, sex depicted in the media and how, you know, certain things that she has never understood, and I thought, Oh my God, this is exactly how I feel, and so that, you know, it was just, like, very startling and like, Does this mean I’m asexual too?

And literally the next day I got an email; at the time I was working on my fourth book, and I was working with an authenticity reader on it because it’s a male/male romance. I had never written one of those before, so I was working with this man named Drew, and up until that point I had been trying to write these, like, sex-positive, experienced heroines who, you  know, are confident about sex because I thought, Well, that’s what I’m supposed to write because that’s the positive thing to do in romance novels, and, but it, it always felt a bit inauthentic to me because, like, I, that was not my experience. I was, like, very nervous about sex. So with book four I decided I was going to write a character who was more like me, and so the hero in that book, his name is Burne, and he’s very nervous about sex. Like, he, he meets Gray, and he really, really likes him, but he tries to push himself too fast, and he has anxiety and panic attacks and, so literally the day after I read the scene in The Romantic Agenda my authenticity reader emailed me, and his first comment was, Is the hero supposed to be on the ace spectrum? And I was like, Ooh! Like, good question!

So that, that was kind of like, those two things, one after another, really just kind of upended my world. So I – and it, it felt very, very strange, because on one hand it was like it never occurred to me that other people felt things different? Like, you know there are a lot of romance novels where the people see each other and they’re immediately turned on? And it ne-, I never realized that was a real thing! Like, I always thought, Oh, that’s such poor writing! And now I feel sort of ashamed because I’m like, Oh, sorry I thought that! Like, I just didn’t realize that anyone else, that was actually like how it was for them?

Sarah: [Laughs]

Jane: So that was shocking, but at the same time I can think back like from, you know, middle school on and just see all these little, like, it’s like the glitch in the matrix, the weird little things that never fit or that I never understood suddenly kind of making sense? And so I, you know, what I do, I get a bunch of books to read more about it, and I, I guess the, the main thing that every single book on this will tell you is that you can divide attraction into different types of attraction, and so I can now see that I always had a lot of romantic attraction for people. I would have these huge crushes on people. You know, I, I wanted a boyfriend so badly I would, like, daydream about, like, meeting someone or I’d, I’d have a crush, not, but I would, like, daydream about us, like, talking and going on romantic dates, and I can see that romantic attraction is not the same as sexual attraction? So I, I decided to kind of, you know, I, I did, I decided I didn’t have to, like, figure out an exact label. I know some people really try to do that, but I, it was just, like, too overwhelming and there’s, you know, I’m, I’m fifty, so there’s decades of, like, media saturation and confusion to work through. But I did –

Sarah: And that’s why there’s a spectrum! ‘Cause you –

Jane: Right, right.

Sarah: – might be on it somewhere! We’ll figure it out.

Jane: Right. So, but I did start trying to write some characters, and by far the most helpful book, it’s called How to Write Asexual Characters by Salt & Sage Books. They have a whole series for if you’re, I think aimed if you’re writing a character who you are not in their group? But I read this one, and it actually lists five types of attraction? So they list sexual; romantic; then aesthetic, where you just, like, like seeing something; emotional; and the fifth one is physical? And that was so helpful to me, because it’s like hugging, holding hands, touching; like, physical activity, but not sex. And so, like, that’s something where, when I would write characters and there’s that, like, a good hug in there, I really, really feel it, and so I would not have thought to, like, separate that from a different type of attraction.

So I think writing the characters has just been, like, very helpful, ‘cause I can sort of compare and contrast myself to what – and I, I make, like, a little chart now for each of them. Like, this kind of attraction, do they feel it right away, or do they have to get to know someone first? Or maybe they don’t feel it at all, and that, you know, that has been, like, illuminating and, and very helpful.

Sarah: I love your methodical determination to make this as accurate for your characters as possible? I also love that the – this happens to me too, where the universe is talking to you? Like, one day I read this, and the next day somebody –

Jane: Right.

Sarah: – says the same word, and I’m like –

Jane: Right.

Sarah: Not only is demisexual a thing, but you have a flag!

Jane: I know about the asexual flag. Is there a demisexual flag too, or…

Sarah: Hell yes, there is a demisexual flag! I will see if I can put it in the chat. There you go! It’s gray and black and white with this really nice deep purple down the middle?

Jane: Oh yes. Yeah, I see them.

Sarah: Yeah, you, not only do you a proper name, but you have a flag!

Jane: Well, I have my rainbow flag in the window for like the past ten years since the North Carolina government got a little bit negative. So now I’m like, Maybe I should get that one too!

Sarah: Yeah, why not? But it must be really kind of astonishing, ‘cause I am the same age as you, almost; I’ll be fifty this year. It, it is kind of startling to look at your own backstory and be like, Hold up, it’s a completely different story that I had no idea.

Jane: Yes, and, and there were so many times when there were, like I was making excuses for myself?

Sarah: Mm-hmm!

Jane: So, like, I remember sex ed in fifth grade and, and, like, I remember learning about it because afterwards I realized all my friends already knew this, but they were all like, We’re not going to tell Emily. We’ll just, like, she’s not ready yet. And so I remember learning it and thinking, That’s gross. I’m never doing that. But you’re a fifth grader, and boys are still kind of gross, so, you know, maybe part of it was, was just the age, but then, like, through the years it was always like, Oh, you’re a late bloomer. Oh, you’re shy. And, and yeah, I can remember sort of, like, trying to force myself like, Oh, kissing! Like, everybody loves kissing! Like, it’s in all the poetry, and it’s in all the movies, and then it was just like the most disappointing experience ever the first time I was kissed.

Sarah: [Laughs] What, you mean the music didn’t swell? A whole orchestra full of –

Jane: …no.

Sarah: – full of violins didn’t just sort of appear and start playing?

Jane: Ironically, it happened in the orchestra locker in the music hall of the high school.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Jane: But no, the orchestra did not start playing.

Sarah: Many, many a romance reader has, has told the story of, you know, I really thought my first time would be just like in a romance novel. There were no waves! There was no cresting!

Jane: Right.

Sarah: It was not like that! [Laughs]

Jane: Right, right.

Sarah: So on one hand we have this genre that is teaching us empathy and that we are all deserving of love and happiness, and at the same time it’s also enforcing a very specific set of sexual actions and values that don’t apply to everyone who reads it.

One of the things you mentioned when we were emailing was that the romance beats, the way that we perceive of the progress of a romance, are very allosexual-focused, allosexual being people who are not on the asexual spectrum. And they don’t necessarily work for characters who are on the asexual spectrum! Can you tell me about that?

Jane: Yes. And so I, I feel like I should say, though, I, I swear I’m not trying to make excuses for me not being very good at writing conflict. Like, I want to be better at conflict, but I, I really struggle to write external conflict, and so when there’s something I want to get better at I usually, like, get a book or sign up for a class, but I just had several, like, very frustrating class experiences where it was like I just couldn’t connect with what the teacher was saying, and every suggestion they made just felt, like, completely off to me and, like, inauthentic to who the characters were.

Sarah: Right.

Jane: And I was just getting so frustrated, and then finally it dawned on me that it’s like these rules work for allosexual characters, and I’m not sure that they work for my characters. And like I said, I don’t want to make excuses. I know conflict’s hard, and I want to get better at it, but I, I want to do it in a way that authentically represents the characters, so I guess my question is, do the models for how conflict works in a romance novel need to be broadened to just have, you know, more different kinds? And so, for example, there’s this one…

Sarah: I mean, I would just say yes. Romance can always broaden. [Laughs]

Jane: There’s, there’s this one idea that the couple has to be kept apart by external conflict because otherwise they want sex, and without external conflict they’re just going to, like, fall into each other’s arms and have sex; there’s nothing keeping them apart. But if they’re demisexual or asexual, that’s not necessarily true. Like, they’re, they’re not falling into each other’s arms, ‘cause it’s going to maybe take them longer to come together or to be ready for that. And so I’ve kind of wondered if the balance of external and internal conflict maybe shifts with different types of characters? So ace people might have more internal conflict; they might need to go slower; they might just have, like, boundaries they need to set or more things to think about; and especially, like, I’m especially interested in writing characters who are just learning about their identity, which creates a whole ‘nother level of time that’s going to be needed, because this might be new to them; they might be just realizing certain things about themselves. So, so yeah, the, the idea of conflict is one that I’m kind of really struggling to understand lately and wondering, like, what to do with it and how to make it still a great reading experience while being authentic to characters who have so much, like, internal stuff that might be keeping them apart.

Sarah: I am also an internal conflict reader. I have never understood danger boner. When you’re in grave danger and the bad guys are chasing you, you must, right now, stop and shtup in the hallway? Like, I don’t understand that. In that situation, my hornypants would be in the next county? Not on me.

Jane: Right.

Sarah: And I, I love internal conflict. The way that I describe it is that there are some books where the world will end if we bone, or maybe the world will end if we don’t bone, but it’s world-ending. And I am –

Jane: Uh-huh?

Sarah: – I am much more of a reader of my world will end if we do or don’t bone, depending on the story. Like, it’s all very much my world that I’m the most interested in. Not my personal, but the characters’ internal worlds. And it is very difficult, I think, to balance that. It’s also very interesting to, to, to think about what the beats are that are driven by allosexual attraction.

Jane: Right, like the –

Sarah: And even the, even the progress of intimacy. Like, we kissed, then we hugged, then there was touching, like first base! Second base, third base. Like, that, that doesn’t apply either!

Jane: Right. So the, one of the things that kept happening to me in these classes is the teacher, I think, would get very frustrated with me, and they would refer me to different blog posts about the “twelve stages of intimacy.”

Sarah: Ohhh boy!

Jane: If you, if you search this idea, all these different blogs related to romance novels will come up, but yesterday I was kind of like, I better do my research, so I looked it up, and apparently it originated with this scientist, like, back last century, and so supposedly these twelve stages are, like, baked into our human DNA as, like, you know, part of what has helped us, like, evolve and reproduce through centuries. But basically there are these twelve steps, and almost all of them center around touching each other, and they are all focused on sexual attraction, and so I have got the list here, and I apologize in advance. I always feel gross saying these, but the first one is, like, Eye to body, where one person, like, checks out the other person, and then they make Eye contact. Number three is they Speak, which that, that one’s not so bad. But then four is, like, their Hands touch. Five is they Bump shoulders. Six is a Hand touches a back, then seven is Kissing, which they describe as mouth to mouth, which is kind of funny. And then…

Sarah: Or one of them stopped breathing. Either they’re kissing or it’s CPR –

Jane: Right.

Sarah: – but both count. Okay, I’m with you! Yep! [Laughs]

Jane: And then I, actually I skipped eight through eleven, because it’s basically just, like, building up sex acts to number twelve, which is “Genital to genital sex.” And when you search online, like, all the blog posts, they’re talking about these stages that your romance novel should have – you know, not all of them, but most of them – and I think the idea behind it is that you don’t want to just throw the couple into having sex. You need to build up intimacy between them, which I could see being true in some novels, but I have read some novels where they meet and hook up in the first chapter –

Sarah: Oh yeah!

Jane: – and it’s really well done –

Sarah: Yeah!

Jane: – and then they, like, are forming their bonds of intimacy later, and it, it’s a great book, so I don’t think that this rule, like, has to be followed?

Sarah: Yeah, it’s like the sex version of marriage should, a marriage of convenience or an arranged marriage: you are bonded as married people, and you have to figure out how to be intimate emotionally and physically within that structure that’s already in place. It’s not at the end; it’s at the beginning. Same thing with going to Bone Town first chapter! All right, you know how all your parts work, and apparently they work well together. What now? Like, yeah! I’m with you!

Jane: Right, right.

Sarah: Hundred percent!

Jane: And, and so every time I read this list I just, like, get the biggest, ickiest feeling. Like, even number one –

Sarah: Genital to genital – bleah!

Jane: – which is, like, looking at each other. Like, I always feel totally creeped out when I was younger and would actually go out to bars and someone would, like, check me out. I would just, like, it makes my skin crawl, and I can safely say, like, I have never, like, looked up and down someone’s body and been like, Ohhh, check that out! Like, I tend to just notice, like, Oh, this person’s friendly! The one that really gets me is the number six, the hand to back, because I can remember being in middle school and, like, you know, the bell would ring, and you’d have four minutes to get to your next class, but somehow all the couples would, like, somehow find each other immediately –

Sarah: Yeah.

Jane: – and then they would walk down the hall together, and the guy would always have his hand on her back like he was sort of steering her down the hall? And I, you know, even though I wanted a boyfriend so badly, I just remember just thinking, Oh, I hope no one ever does that to me; that would drive me nuts! So I, I reject these twelve – well, I shouldn’t say that. These stages –

Sarah: They’re not for you! [Laughs]

Jane: – can work great for some people, but I have, I’ve been working on my alternative twelve stages. [Laughs] I don’t have twelve yet, but just some things that I think would build intimacy in a relationship? So I’ve got the love interest, like, shows kindness, even when the other person maybe wasn’t very nice to them or was grumpy, but they still are kind. Then maybe the love interest respects a boundary that the person sets and shows that they’re listening. The love interest gives a thoughtful gift or does something that’s, like, very specific and thoughtful to the character that’s not just, like, generic. The love interest might share a personal detail or, you know, share about themself and show that they’re willing to be vulnerable with another person. They might, well, then they might smell nice. Like, I, like, I can’t understand how that’s not on the list, because, like, I think it’s pretty scientific? Like, there was a study that showed the people who smell good to you are the ones who you’re going to have good attraction with? And so –

Sarah: Oh yes! I’ve heard that too.

Jane: – that’s how – I, I am not sure how that missed the list. And then honesty was another one. Just, like, you know, maybe there was a lie at some point? Coming clean because you want the other person to trust you. So I don’t know; I think there are a lot of things that are not centered on touching that develop intimacy, and so I’m kind of working on it, on building out my list with those.

Sarah: I’ve really liked listening to authors, including you, talk about how gestures of intimacy that aren’t sexual are extremely important, especially in romance. Like, I remember Courtney Milan once talking about how her characters will always at some point feed each other. There will be tea; there will be a snack; there will be food. And that sort of is physical and emotional caretaking at the same time. Like, I’m caring for your physical body – you need some nourishment – but I’m also caring about the state of your body right now. And that’s, that’s very intimate.

You know, this actually reminds me a lot about how a lot of people talk about romance novels as if they are just sex, and they’re not. Like, they’re really not, so clearly you don’t know anything about romance if you think it’s just Bone Town. What we’re actually doing is empathy and intimacy, and what you’re doing is saying we need to broaden our description of intimacy beyond the physical.

Jane: Yes. Actually would like people to try to better understand romance novels and not just keep saying, They’re porn for housewives! Like, I’m, I get so angry now when I hear that, because they’re not.

Sarah: I have been the, the recipient of so many of these questions over the past twenty years that at this point I’m just sort of, like, carbon-dating the age of the question. Like –

Jane: Right.

Sarah: – aren’t they just porn? That’s like a Paleolithic question, people. Come on! Our pop culture knowledge has gotten much better than that.

Jane: Right.

Sarah: What – it’s like anytime you see somebody bringing up Fabio you’re like, Oh, okay! You’re Mesozoic era! Okay! [Laughs]

Jane: Right, right! Right. And yeah –

Sarah: Anthropology of your bad takes. [Laughs]

Jane: When I think about who it was who said that, it was like, you know, a friend’s boyfriend at a party –

Sarah: Yeah.

Jane: – so I could see how that is Paleolithic.

Sarah: Yeah. Oh yeah. We’re, we’re working with some arcane and ancient concepts. We can all update; it’s fine.

One of the things that I’ve, that I realize when I’m listening to you talk is that it sounds as if perceiving and, more importantly, being perceived is intimate! Like, just –

Jane: Yes. Yeah.

Sarah: – noticing someone is there is intimate, and being perceived and knowing that someone is aware of you is a form of intimacy. And it’s not just checking someone out objectively or thinking, you know, Would or not would? But also being, being perceived as a person by someone you don’t know can be incredibly intimate and also very, like, give you a very vulnerable feeling. So it sounds like what you’re actually doing is starting much, much, much more specifically in awareness. Not just physical, but, like – what’s the word I’m looking for? – like, just awareness of the other person. Almost like psychological awareness, like, Oh, another person has entered my orbit. Ahhh!

Jane: Yeah, and I think when you have, like, those boundary, boundary, I don’t want to say issues. Just, like, boundaries you like to keep and, like, space around you –

Sarah: Yeah!

Jane: – and, you know, now someone stands too close. Like having someone realize that and, like, respect it?

Sarah: Yes.

Jane: Is, is such a wonderful thing?

Sarah: Yes, it’s another form of awareness! I have seen your reaction and I can feel your shoulders climbing up towards your ears, so I’m going to take a big step back because I don’t want you to feel uncomfortable. If someone notices your discomfort and works to make you comfortable, that’s very hot, I would just like to say.

Jane: And then especially when there’s the other dude who’s, like, getting closer and closer and creepier and creepier –

Sarah: Yeah.

Jane: – and then he comes and re-, and is like, Dude, lay off! Like –

Sarah: Yeah.

Jane: – back up. Get away from her…

Sarah: How do you not see that you are not, this is not going to yield the result that you want? What are you doing? Yeah. Well, it’s all part of the, sort of the default sort of goggles of Oh, this is how courtship works. I am interested in these things. I will follow these twelve steps. I will put my hand on her head! [Laughs] One of them is –

Jane: [Laughs]

Sarah: One of them is Hand to head! All I could picture was somebody putting their palm on somebody’s face –

Jane: Right.

Sarah: – and just shoving them…

[Laughter]

Sarah: Get out of here! Hand to head! Wow, that was very intimate. You’re still…

Jane: Shoulder to shoulder…

Sarah: Yeah! [Laughs] Thrown into the next building! That would be a very fun superhero story. Like, I am doing intimacy! [Collision sound]

[Laughter]

Sarah: Now, we mentioned earlier when we were talking, we talked about understudied medical conditions specific to women and specific to menopause. You mentioned pelvic floor PT. I just want to say I had pelvic floor physical therapy; I also had biofeedback? Which is when they – this was so wild, y’all; prefare, prepare for a little knowledge about me – they put these little receivers – it’s almost like the EEG, EKG receivers, like the little flat things with the wires on them when they take your heart rate? Only they’re all over your intimate undercarriage areas, and they are reading the degree to which you can clench, hold, flex muscles that you might not have active control over, or active awareness that you are in control of these muscles. It was very helpful! And that is another thing that I learned: pelvic floor issues and prolapse, especially if you’ve had a pregnancy? That’s very common, and not a lot of women talk about it.

Jane: Yeah. Well, I know this is a totally weird thing to say, but when, when you said this to me I was like, I’m so jealous you had biofeedback, because I, I also did pelvic floor physical therapy. I did not get to have biofeedback –

Sarah: Oh!

Jane: – but I think it would have been so useful, because it’s sort of like, you know, on your biceps you can put your hand on it and feel when it’s flexing.

Sarah: Yep.

Jane: Your pelvic floor is sort of inside you –

Sarah: Yep.

Jane: – and so there, it, it often feels like you’re just sort of guessing. Like, you do your kegel exercises and you tighten and you release!

Sarah: Yeah.

Jane: But with the biofeedback you can actually see, like, are you completely relaxed –

Sarah: Yeah.

Jane: – so you can get better and better at it. So yeah, I would, I would have loved to have seen that, but I…

Sarah: I’m sorry it’s not more common!

Jane: Yeah.

Sarah: Should be more common! So many people have this issue.

Jane: But I, I do feel very, very lucky that I got to have PT at all –

Sarah: Yeah.

Jane: – because, like, a lot of doctors, like, don’t even know about it?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Jane: And my doctor sent me, and it was, I would say it was, it was very helpful, but it, it was all physical treatments, and so it ultimately, like, it helped, but it didn’t completely solve everything –

Sarah: Right.

Jane: – and I had felt sort of like I hit a dead end, and it was just, like, very frustrating and hopeless because I just couldn’t think of anything else to try to, to solve these issues. About a year ago, and this is, like, the most random occurrence ever?

Sarah: The universe is really just chatting with you, isn’t it? [Laughs]

Jane: Yes. My, my little town newsletter came out, and, you know, it’s always like, The water department’s going to be flushing the hydrants, and, you know, The tree board has named another century tree, and then way, way down the bottom was a piece about a local author, and she was a retired pelvic floor physical therapist from Duke Hospital. She, so she had spent thirty years at Duke, and she said that it was like all of her colleagues had gotten to know her and had seen the results she got, so they all respected what she did and had learned, Oh, I should refer this person for –

Sarah: Yeah!

Jane: – you know, pelvic floor PT.

Sarah: Yeah.

Jane: But the larger medical network still didn’t know about it? So she had retired, and she had this book come out about pelvic floor pain, and she was kind of now, her new, you know, post-retirement job was spreading the word, and so she was offering a training with this other therapist, and it was like one town away, and it was aimed at other ther-, other physical therapists who were not yet familiar with pelvic floor physical therapy.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Jane: So I basically called and was like, Please let me come! I’m not a therapist; I just want to learn about this. So I went to this training, and it was just so great. It was kind of in two parts. So the one PT, she sort of dealt with the physical aspect of it and, you know, talked all about the muscles and how they work, and there were so many examples she gave, and I’ll just share the one that I thought was really, everyone should know, is that, you know, as people start to get older, a lot of people have incontinence issues?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Jane: And doctors will just prescribe medicine to solve it, but then the medicines often have side effects, and in particular she said they often contribute to dementia, which is of course horrible for an older person.

Sarah: Yes.

Jane: But she said, All you need to do is Kegel exercises, and that strengthens your pelvic floor and will solve your incontinence issue. And she said, Even if, you know, a lot of times you ask patients, Do you have incontinence? And they’ll say No, and then she’ll say, How ‘bout just like one drop when you sneeze? And they’re like, Oh yeah, I have that. And that’s the start of it, but just do some Kegel exercises, and that, you know, that will help.

But she had so many examples of other things that have been solved with this kind of therapy, and – I don’t know; it was just, it was eye-opening and I, like, I could see why she wants to spread the word about it? What I personally got out of it that was so helpful was, you know, she talked to me about vaginismus and how it’s a condition that’s often, like, tightness or muscle spasms?

Sarah: Mm-hmm?

Jane: Yeah. So the simple advice to do Kegel exercises could worsen the problem, because that’s building, like, making everything tighter and tighter?

Sarah: Yeah, that’s building the strength of the spasm, because you’re strengthening the muscle to do what it’s already doing –

Jane: Right.

Sarah: – which is be tight. Yeah.

Jane: Right, right. And she said, You can have weak muscles that are still too tight, and so you, it’s like you want to make them stronger, but you want, also want to help them relax. So she suggested doing very short Kegel – so, like, short: you hold it for like a split second and then relax, like ten seconds relaxing, just to try to make sure you’re totally relaxed. And so it’s still Kegel exercises, but with the focus on the relaxing part of it, and that was something I had never anyone else say.

The other thing I loved was the way she described doing Kegel exercises. The common description is it’s like when you’re peeing and you shut off the flow of pee?

Sarah: Right.

Jane: So she was like, It can be hard to know you’re doing it right, and that description she, she didn’t like. So her description was, Pretend, if, if you have a vagina, pretend you are sucking liquid through a straw into your vagina, and that was –

Sarah: Oh my gosh! [Laughs]

Jane: Like, imagine that! And then, if you don’t have a vagina, just, like, sucking liquid into a straw with your nether parts. And so I thought that was a very helpful way to, to describe it.

Sarah: That is much different than stop the flow of pee.

Jane: Right, right. So –

Sarah: Fantastic.

Jane: Yes. I was glad she had come up with that.

And then the second part of the, of the seminar was by a sort of movement and wellness person?

Sarah: Ohhh!

Jane: And so she brought this, like, mental health component to it? And I think that when, like, when you have this pelvic floor pain in vaginismus the common question is, Have you experienced sexual trauma or sexual assault? And if you haven’t, it often just seems like there’s no reason why you have this condition? Like, you know, I haven’t had a baby, so there hasn’t been that kind of physical stuff happening down there, and so Lauren, the, the person at the webinar, seminar, she suggested that, like, taking a wider view of the concept of trauma. And so she, for example, had worked with someone who had pelvic floor issues, and when they kind of went over his past and, like, delved really deep, he remembered being bullied in the bathroom in middle school, and that ended up being the key that sort of unlocked it and helped him to get through it, because he had developed just, like, trauma associated with the act of peeing and his pelvic floor, based on this really upsetting continuous experience he had as a child. Another one she said that’s common is falling off a bike seat and just having this physical trauma down there that affects you, and you don’t realize that it has lasting effects. So she said that – I, I wrote this down – it was, Pelvic floor issues can be caused by an unfounded fear. So, you know, you’re fearing something, even though it’s not going to hurt you, and that, that can cause, cause these issues. So I kind of have this theory that, like, growing up, you know, in the 1980s in this allo-centric world where there was just this sort of nonstop media saturation about sex, and all your friends are talking about sex –

Sarah: Yep.

Jane: – and not really having an understanding of, like, where you fit in, but kind of knowing you’re uncomfortable with everything around you? I sort of wonder if that was just, like, a constant, low-grade bombardment that just built up a lot of tension around the issue and has now led to these troubles. So that’s not a doctor diagnosis; that’s just kind of my theory that I’m trying to, to work on.

Sarah: Well, it makes sense, because if you think, Oh, I am anticipating something that I am scared of, what do you do? You brace! You clench. You are hardening your body so that anything that is coming at you is not going to hurt as much. All of – I mean, I, you and I grew up in the same time period, so not only did we have the Let us show boobies everywhere! We are sexually liberated people! Let’s have lots of sex on TV, and sex on TV had to be good on film, so it was like, Woo! Okay. But there wasn’t a lot of discussion of Okay, but what is sex doing? What is the sex for? Why, what is sex doing for you as an individual, is not, is something you have to kind of work out on your own, and if you’re only presented with this one version –

Jane: Right.

Sarah: – how are you going to know what sex does for you if it’s not doing what you’re told it should do? Like with the writing instructors, Well, I feel like I should be writing this, I feel like I should do this, but this doesn’t fit me. Well, the same thing is like, Well, this is what sex is like! Something’s wrong with me that I don’t –

Jane: Yeah.

Sarah: – it’s not like that for me? But also, it kind of sounds like – forgive me; this is a terrible joke – you’re kind of having a romance with your pelvic floor.

Jane: Uh-huh!

[Laughter]

Sarah: Getting –

Jane: Getting to know each other a lot –

Sarah: Getting to know each other and how they work together, yeah! This is, this is important!

Jane: Yeah. I, what you said just reminded me: I had a friend in college, and one time – I don’t even like to say this phrase, ‘cause it just makes me so angry now, but she was sort of laughing, and she was like, Remember when we were in high school and people would be like, Oh, she doesn’t put out? And she was laughing over how horrible this is, that it’s like the, the woman is, like, it’s not even for her. It’s, like, for him, and she’s, like, giving it to him, and she was like, That was so gross, how people talked about it, and it had never occurred to me how gross that was until she said it, and –

Sarah: Yep.

Jane: But yeah, that term just, like, always upset me so much, and I never really knew why until this discussion in college.

Sarah: Yeah.

Jane: Yeah, I think there was just a lot of that, that, like, misogynistic ideas about –

Sarah: Yeah.

Jane: – what sex is for and that, who it was for that, you know, would make it seem very unappealing for –

Sarah: Yes, if, if you were not the sexual partner with the penis, then in the ‘80s and ‘90s a lot of the portrayals of sex were about you being a transactional device? Certainly not a person; certainly not an autonomous being? Do you put out the sex, do you put out the wheelie bins, or do you put out the milk? Like, which one are we putting out tonight, dear? Like, ew, gross!

Jane: Right.

Sarah: No! I completely agree with you! Bleah! Ugh!

Jane: Yeah.

Sarah: Yucky.

Jane: I think perhaps that’s why I, I did not read romance as a child? So, well, my mom would argue I read Mary Stewart and Victoria Holt. Like, they were very romantic, but there was no steamy stuff in them, and they were very not like that other stuff, so. But yeah, I think probably as a kid it didn’t appeal to me –

Sarah: Yeah.

Jane: – ‘cause that was just ooh, scaries.

Sarah: And, like, I was deep into Sweet Valley High, which was –

Jane: Ooh, yeah. Yeah…

Sarah: Sweet Valley High, and then later Sweet Dreams, which was – I think, I think those were supposed to be the gateway drug into series romance like Harlequin and Candlelight and Silhouette. They were all the same size; they looked a little bit alike. But Sweet Valley High, there is no sex. Like, having sex is considered extremely bad! Like, one of the twins gets in trouble for being out all night, because the implication –

Jane: Right, right.

Sarah: – is that she might have gone to Bone Town! Like, the, the whole message about sex in the books that were being published for us at that time was no, no, no, no, no, no, no! Not till later.

Jane: Right?

Sarah: I remember a friend of mine telling me how frustrating it was that her whole life she was told, You should not have sex; you should not be with boys; you should, you’re being too sexual; that clothe, this, this outfit’s too revealing; what, you can’t leave the house like that. No, no, no, no, no. And then at one point it just switched, and all of a sudden it’s, Well, how come you’re not married? How come you don’t have a boyfriend?

Jane: Right. Right.

Sarah: How come you haven’t had babies yet? What are you doing? Well, you just spent twenty years telling me not to have sex!

Jane: [Laughs]

Sarah: Suddenly it’s okay? Like, how?! Like – [laughs] –

Jane: Yeah.

Sarah: – it’s very strange, the messaging we received. So it makes total sense that, like you said, that constant bombardment of messaging is going to have an effect on your physical body. I mean, we, we’re, we’re now, fifty years later going, Why doesn’t my shoulder work?

Jane: Right. [Laughs]

Sarah: What the hell? [Laughs]

I just want to say, I really appreciate how honest and vulnerable you’re being? And I really appreciate that you’re bringing me this perspective, because I, (a) it’s really important, but also it’s really hard to talk about, so thank you.

Jane: I kept going, like, is this a good idea or a bad idea to, to talk about this? But I really just had no qualms about it because I know it would have been so helpful for me to have –

Sarah: Yeah.

Jane: – this information, so I really wanted to talk about it, and I appreciate you hosting me to…

Sarah: Oh, no question. I also think you’re very brave, because not everyone would be like, Hello, physical therapist teaching other therapists; can I just come and listen, please? Please, please? Like, I would be like, Oh, that’s not for me, but wow, am I curious! That’s pretty, that’s pretty brave!

Now, I always ask these questions, so I want to ask you, of course: what books are you reading that you want to tell people about? Or if you have recommended reading lists of some of the topics that you’ve discussed, bring it! I’m ready. I want to have a book list.

Jane: Okay. Well, I just finished The Charm Offensive by Alis-, Alison Cochrun, and it’s absolutely delightful. So the hero, he has OCD and anxiety, and he is also on the asexual spectrum but has never realized it because he just has always avoided people so much? And because he’s never felt sexual attraction, he also hasn’t realized that he’s gay, and he’s now the next Bachelor, basically, is the setting of this. So he’s on –

Sarah: My God! [Laughs]

Jane: – this show with all these women throwing themselves at him, and he is going to fall in love with his handler on the show, and I just, like, I thought it was all treated so well. The show is, like, absolutely skewered the way they, you know, manipulate everything, and it, but it, it never got so ugly that I was like, didn’t want to be reading it anymore, and it –

Sarah: Yep.

Jane: – had this really, like, delightful ending, so I definitely want to recommend that.

I know I mentioned, like, the pelvic floor book, and I, I definitely can give you the title for the show notes. It’s The Musculoskeletal Mystery by Ingrid Harm-Ernandes.

I wondered if I could share a show, because –

Sarah: Fuck yes!

Jane: – there’s this show –

Sarah: Are you kidding?!

Jane: – that, like, has been helping me relax so much. Have you ever…

Sarah: [Gasps]

Jane: – of Britain by Narrowboat?

Sarah: Okay.

Jane: Like, I feel like narrowboats are trendy, except we don’t actually have them in America, but, like, they were in Wallace and Gromit. Did you see the narrowboat in Wallace and Gromit, the final –

Sarah: Oh yes!

Jane: – fight scene? So have, have you seen Britain by Narrowboat?

Sarah: Okay, is this the one that’s hosted by the Foxes?

Jane: Colin and Shaun, yes.

Sarah: Okay, first of all, I had Colin on my podcast.

Jane: Oh, you did?

Sarah: Oh yes! I used to follow…their original YouTube channel was Foxes Afloat, and I would watch them. There were, there were three YouTubers who did a lot of narrowboat content. It was the Foxes Afloat and Cruising the Cut, and there was a, there was a couple, it was two women, and one was Welsh and one was Australian, and I was like, I am here for the narrowboat and all of your accents. Just keep talking.

Jane: Right, right.

Sarah: I frigging love narrowboats! So you’ve been watching Britain by Narrowboat, what, on Amazon Prime?

Jane: Right. So I, I started with the Amazon Prime, and it’s just one season there, and I just went and looked up their YouTube, and I think I’m glad I started on Amazon Prime, ‘cause it seems like they get you right on the water –

Sarah: Yeah.

Jane: – in the first episode? And on the YouTube it’s like the boat is being built, and there’s all this background, so –

Sarah: Yes.

Jane: – maybe if you’re just, like, curious, start with the Amazon one, but it’s just, like, Colin and Shaun and their dog Dillon, and it’s just like them going down these canals with, like, beautiful green fields everywhere, or they go through a town, and I know this is, like, so American, but, like, all the towns are just so cute! And I just –

Sarah: Oh gosh.

Jane: …here, like, you go through a town and it’s just, like, strip malls and, like, power poles and gas stations. So, but I, I think what I really love is that, you know how a lot of travel shows it’s like, Here’s this town, and here’s all these great restaurants and, like, here – and I, that always makes me feel like I’m never going to get to do this, and I –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Jane: – just feel like I’m missing out. So this show, it’s like a travel documentary, but it’s just them, like, laughing and the dog running around, and then they’ll be like, Here’s this town! It had a great shop. And then it’s gone, and it’s just all this scenery, and then they’ll, they’ll spend like ten minutes on, Here’s this lock; here’s how it works.

Sarah: Yep!

Jane: As the show gains popularity, people start waving at them going, I saw you on YouTube! And it’s just –

Sarah: Yes!

Jane: – so friendly and wonderful.

Sarah: Oh yeah.

Jane: And then, like, We got a great mooring, and I absolutely love the moorings, because it’s just this feeling of, like, we’re safe for the night.

Sarah: Yep.

Jane: You know, we’re, we’re on a canal, so it’s not like there’s waves or sharks or anything –

Sarah: Yep.

Jane: – and I just, I love, like, when my friend and I rode our bikes across America one summer, and that feeling of, like, finding your place for the night –

Sarah: Yes!

Jane: – and, like, setting up camp I just find so comforting. So yeah, if you just want, like, like, Darcy and I seriously put it on, and we were like, This is weird. We should turn it off. But then we just, like, couldn’t. And…totally hooked and would, would just keep – yeah, so.

Sarah: I cannot tell you how much I am here for narrowboat squeeing, and I have some recommendations for you. So –

Jane: Oh good.

Sarah: – first of all, Cruising the Cut. David Johns is a former television reporter and producer, so his production quality is incredible, but he also will have, he used to have a narrowboat, and he just bought a new, smaller one. He had a whole side channel where he renovated a camper van. He just likes to build things that are vehicles and then live in them; that’s his whole shtick. All of the people who I followed who did a lot of narrowboat content, their content was gorgeous. So Cruising the Cut is fantastic, and they do, David also published these videos where he’s just like, I am letting the bow camera run, and you’re just going to listen. There’s no music; there’s no commentary; it’s just watch the canal?

But I’m going to blow your mind with the most beautiful, but I will warn you, it is a little sad, story, and I don’t know when this started coming out, but one of the first shows I ever watched on narrowboating was called Great Canal Journeys, and it stars Timothy West and Prunella Scales. Timothy West died late last year; he was an extremely esteemed actor. Prunella Scales was on Fawlty Towers and is also a very revered actor. Timothy West’s son is in All Creatures Great and Small. He plays the older veterinarian. So these are like, this is like an acting dynasty family. Great Canal Journeys was about how Timothy West and Prunella Scales would just take their narrowboat everywhere, and it’s these two older people, and they’re puttering around on the canals. There’s a scene of them, like, on a bridge saying, you know, Will people be on the canals and thinking of us? And every time I see it I get choked up. And it’s lovely! It’s so great, but the old ones, the old Prunella and Tim ones, they are on YouTube. And also – [huffs] – this is porn! Right? Like, this is, this is straight up pornographic nature. Like, the, the visuals are just so pretty, aren’t they?

Jane: Yes. Yeah. Even –

Sarah: I love narrowboats.

Jane: – the ugly towns are so cute.

Sarah: Oh yeah!

Where can people find you if you wish to be found?

Jane: So my romance website is janebuehler.com, and there’s a Connect page on there that has links to everywhere, so if you happen to want to read about my bread-making adventures, I have a nonfiction website too, and everything links to everywhere else. These days I am mostly on Bluesky, so.

Sarah: Me too!

Jane: It’s only about once a day, but I, I am trying to keep being social, but that is the, you know, the least bad one, so that’s where I am.

Sarah: Well, it’s, it’s quiet, right? Like, Instagram is talk, is trying to talk to me. TikTok is too loud, and…Instagram is constantly making noise? I like my text-based social media.

Jane: Yeah.

Sarah: I sound like a very fuddy-duddy person. Get off my lawn! I just want words! No sound!

Jane: Yeah.

Sarah: Just words.

Jane: I feel like all the romance writers and editors are there –

Sarah: Yep.

Jane: – and that’s who I like talking to.

Sarah: Can you please remind the listeners about your book that is coming out?

Jane: The Fire Apprentice: it will be out, it’s a Tuesday; March 18th, I believe?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Jane: And yeah, I’m just really excited to have it out there, mostly because of the heroine and her pelvic floor! [Laughs] Which, you know, originally wasn’t the first thing on my mind, but now that, I think it’s why it’s so special to me. So it will be out March 18th, and I just hope people like it.

Sarah: I have this episode scheduled for March 14th, so this book will be out the Tuesday after this episode drops, so we will tell people, and I will have links in the show notes where you can find the book; do not worry.

Thank you so much for coming on the show –

Jane: Thank you!

Sarah: – and being so honest, and I, I had such a good time talking about this. Thank you! Would you come back next year to talk about your asexual heroine?

Jane: Oh, definitely.

[outro]

Sarah: And that brings us to the end of this week’s episode. As I mentioned during our conversation, I think it’s very true that people learn about themselves through reading romance, and if that is true, we need to look closely at all of the aspects of humanity that romance novels portray and critique the ones that don’t apply or eliminate the ones that are harmful. Readers who are on the ace spectrum or who have difficulty with or no interest in penetrative sex should be able to meet themselves or aspects of themselves in the characters of the romances that they read, and I’m really glad that the genre continues to expand to better reflect the people who read and write it.

I will have links to all of the things that we talked about. I’ve got links to YouTube channels; I’ve got links to books; it’s just Link Fest over here.

I always end with a terrible joke. You know the routine. Here we go!

Why was the tooth fairy arrested?

Give up? Why was the tooth fairy arrested?

Because of incisor trading.

[Laughs] Incisor trading! Incisor trading! That’s very funny! That joke is from IronPhi on Reddit, and I am deeply grateful.

On behalf of everyone here, we wish you the very best of reading. Have a wonderful weekend, and we’ll see you back here next week.

And in the words of my favorite now-defunct-but-still-great podcast Friendshipping, thank you for listening; you’re welcome for talking.

[end of music]