Smart Podcast, Trashy Books, February 21, 2025

[music]

Sarah Wendell: Hello and welcome to episode number 655 of Smart Podcast, Trashy Books. I’m Sarah Wendell, Amanda is with me, and it is time for the ads and features of the October 2000 Romantic Times magazine, where they’re talking about new releases and celebrating their two hundredth issue. We learned a lot of things: we learned that Kathryn Falk will publish terrible pictures of people in this magazine – wait until you see them – and we learned about waxing and magazines and galleys, but not about skin care or gun parts or boats! But also, we’ve got Extreme Troy, everyone. Grab a drink and come hang out with us. We’ve got Extreme Troy. How can you miss it?

I also have a compliment this week, which is delightful.

To Michelle: Michelle, all the birds near you are practicing all the songs that they’ve been working on this winter so they can celebrate you with music every day, because you’re great.

If you would like a compliment of your very own or you’d like to support this wonderful show, patreon.com/SmartBitches. When you support the show through Patreon, you are keeping me going, you are making sure that every episode is accessible thanks to a hand-compiled transcript from garlicknitter, and you get a wonderful Discord community, bonus episodes, the full PDF of this fabulous magazine, so have a look: patreon.com/SmartBitches.

Support for this episode comes from Skims. A new sponsor: yay! I want to invite you to buy yourself new undergarments. Seriously, how long have you had your unmentionables? It might be time to replace the worn-out ones and upgrade, and I have a suggestion for you: the Fits Everybody collection by Skims is truly incredible for a whole bunch of reasons, not the least of which is that they don’t, you know, bunch up? The fabric in the Fits Everybody collection is so soft and stretchy. It’s not tight; it’s not constricting. It kind of conforms to my body, and then I forget I’m wearing it. No adjustments are needed during the day, if you know what I mean, and I think that you do. The Fits Everybody collection includes so many options: bodysuits, camis, leggings, and bras, available up to size 44G. And everything, including the undergarments, is available in a range of colors for a variety of skin tones. Now, I had not tried Skims before, but I had heard from many people, including people I know in real life and online, that the hype is entirely justified, and they were so great. The fabric is strong, it’s comfortable, and even with full coverage it’s not bulky. I ordered the full brief, and yeah! It does indeed offer full coverage, it does not ride up, and I am reaching for my Fits Everybody briefs constantly. Everyone should get a chance to experience this level of comfort. The Fits Everybody collection is available in sizes Extra-extra Small to 4X. You can shop now at skims.com and Skims stores. After you place your order, be sure to let them know I sent you? Select Podcast in the survey, and be sure to select my show in the dropdown menu that follows. Or you can go to skims.com/SARAH.

Are you ready to go back to October 2000, almost twenty-five years ago? Let’s do this: on with the podcast.

[music]

Sarah: Shall we get started with the ads and features?

Amanda: Yes. Fig is in her frog bed. We are ready to go.

Sarah: All right, I, I do request Fig’s perspective on some of these pictures.

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: So let’s talk about this cover. [Laughs]

Amanda: Wowee, huh?

Sarah: This model, Cherif Fortin – and I may not be saying that correctly. Maybe it’s Fortin; I don’t know – this model is, has a, has their own Angelfire.com tribute site.

Amanda: Angelfire!

Sarah: Yes, there is an –

Amanda: What?

Sarah: – Angelfire site devoted to this, this, this guy.

>> These pages have been created to honor the handsome and charming Cherif Fortin [for-teen] – or Fortin [for-ten]. Cherif has breathed life into my dream of a knight in shining armor. Since Cherif actually worked as a knight at Medieval Times, it makes the image of the chivalrous knight so much more realistic!

So this guy was at Medieval Times! It’s just so great! He, Cherif [Sheriff] is on the cover – Cherif [Sharif]; I don’t know – is on the cover of the two hundredth issue of Romantic Times. He’s got stunning, like, piercing eyes; chest hair; and is to the side; and on the, on the shoulder that’s facing the camera it says 200th Issue while people’s hands are grabbing his shirt and removing it from his body. However –

Amanda: Yeah!

Sarah: – at the bottom, if you look at the hand that is right above RT’s Favorite and right below Skye O’Malley Turns 20, if you don’t know that that’s his shirt, it looks like that hand is about to rip out a chunk of his chest hair.

Amanda: [Laughs] It’s, yeah, buried deep in there. I’m on the Angelfire site?

Sarah: It’s amazing, isn’t it?

Amanda: And they have, like, they have, like, the visitor count at the bottom. [Laughs] If it’s correct and hasn’t stopped working, there have only been one thousand and ten visitors to –

Sarah: Oh, there’s going to be a few more when I link to it! [Laughs] It doesn’t load very fast, either.

Amanda: Like, when did this, when was this made? That’s what I want to know!

Sarah: It’s so Angelfire, though. It’s got like a flowing fabric background, and the pictures all arrive at different times, and yeah, it’s Angelfire all the way.

Amanda: Yeah, it took my computer a second to load those.

Sarah: I clicked on page 2 when you started talking about Angelfire, and it still hasn’t loaded. Like, this, this site is very pokey, poor thing.

Amanda: Oh my…

Sarah: Here’s the gossip that I have about Cherif Fortin – oh, page 2 just loaded, and it has a background like a Minecraft dungeon. Okay, that’s great.

Amanda: Well, also, it’s like Angelfire/Celeb/Men of Rom/his last name. I wonder if there are…featured.

Sarah: Are there more Men of Rom? By the way, that’s a, a great portmanteau, a Men of Rom. Actually, no, it’s not a portmanteau kind of – it’s just a squish. Nothing there! Welcome to my slight –

>> Welcome to my site where celebrities reign supreme. This site is dedicated to the people who entertain and touch my life in some way.

It’s a broad definition of celebrity, but it works.

So here’s the backdrop of this: so I got this issue and several others from Mari the romance reader, and they are a repository of romance history; they know so many things. And so told me, Oh, we’re going to send you the two hundredth issue; it’s got Cherif Fortin on the – you know about him, right? And I was like, No, I don’t know anything about him, and so here’s what happened, according to Mari:

>> Cherif was discovered by photographer/painter/illustrator Lynn Sanders, who later became his business partner –

And in the article you’ll see Lynn, like, taking pictures of him.

>> – when he posed for her on various romance covers. Cherif worked at Chicago’s Medieval Times Banquet Hall and Restaurant, where –

Amanda: I, I didn’t know Chicago had a Medieval Times!

Sarah: I don’t think it does anymore, but it did back then! And he, he wore armor and was a knight! They collaborated, Lynn and Cherif –

>> They collaborated on Passion’s Blood, which became a huge success in 1999, and he became the Renaissance Man. Then Heather Graham asked them to illustrate her There Be Dragons masterpiece. Both books became the first illustrated romance books in hardcover to make the New York Times list. They are beautiful; the illustrations are amazing. Heather Graham’s daughter was the model for both books. Then calamity struck.

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: It’s not actually that big of a calamity.

>> Cherif failed to tell Doubleday, Medallion, or Lynn or anyone that he had contracts with that he had previously starred in pornographic films. OMG! When Cherif became successful and his face became so recognized on every bookshelf in the country, the porn movie owner reissued the movies everywhere to make money on Cherif’s, on Cherif’s popularity.

I still don’t know how to say this guy’s name.

>> It was a disaster, and the fallout was huge. Everyone dropped Cherif; I mean everyone. The book covers he was previously on were reissued with new covers; authors apologized; he and Lynn stopped working together. The good news for readers is that his image was never reprinted, so his stuff is scarce and some people collected it. I don’t know if it’s valuable, but almost everything he is on is a first edition because very few im-, items were reprinted. Our local library at the time dumped both illustrated copies of There Be Dragons and Passion’s Blood, and I got them for a dollar; they’re both first editions.

>> I remember when the nude photo scandal of Vanessa Williams happened, and it made me think of Cherif. Her photos were taken in 1982 and came back to haunt her in 1984. You never know what choices you make, how they will affect your later life, so that is the Cherif’s Saga. By the way, he returned to Chicago and lives with his wife and children, became a fireman, firefighter, and he does photography, and eventually he and Lynn started working together again.

Now, I understand in 2000 being in a pornographic film –

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: – was a big deal, and I also know that Kathryn Falk had a very antagonistic relationship with the porn industry, because –

Amanda: Interesting.

Sarah: – Playgirl was trying to sort of infiltrate Romantic Times and thought this is a natural harmony, and Kathryn was like, Absolutely fucking not. So I’m pretty sure that a lot of the Absolutely not, this is terrible, might have come from Kathryn, ‘cause she seemed to have been very anti-sex-work and pornography.

Amanda: So this is really interesting –

Sarah: Isn’t it interesting?

Amanda: – given – yeah, I mean, romance sometimes is a very prudish genre for –

Sarah: Is explicit and prude at the same time. How does no one have a cognitive dissonance headache? It is prudish and explicit. What are we doing?

Amanda: I’m like, unless you’ve seen those films personally –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Amanda: – like, I would have no fucking clue if anybody on my book covers was an adult film star…wouldn’t.

Sarah: I also, I wouldn’t care, either. Like, it’s fine, but I guess in 2000 and earlier it was like – [gasps] – nakedness! Sex for pay!

Amanda: Well, you know –

Sarah: Whatever.

Amanda: – maybe, maybe pay him better – [laughs, indistinct]

Sarah: So this is a pretty great cover, though, for a two hundredth issue? I think it’s pretty cheeky, and I like it.

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: So you wanted to start on page 7.

Amanda: Do I hear the siren’s call of a cat throwing up?

Sarah: Ohhh, no-ho-ho.

Amanda: Maybe. I’ll do a check afterwards –

Sarah: Okay.

Amanda: – it’s not going anywhere.

Sarah: Yeah, it’s, it’s going to land; may it, may it be on har-, hardwood or tile.

Amanda: [Laughs] Okay. Yeah, on page 7 –

Sarah: Mm-hmm!

Amanda: – there’s a, not, it’s not an ad, but it’s like a little sneak peek sort of: Cherif Fortin, The Perfect Hero, so it’s like a little image promoting the story about him –

Sarah: Check out that chest hair!

Amanda: – later on.

Sarah: Ooh, chest hair!

Amanda: I know! The chest hair blends into his head hair, but also whatever, like, fluffy, velvety top or robe he’s – [laughs] – wearing?

Sarah: Yep.

Amanda: And then he’s, like, holding a woman with her head tipped back, but she’s pale, and she just looks dead…

Sarah: Yeah. That’s not a swoon; she is unconscious.

Amanda: Yeah. [Laughs] Just is jarring –

Sarah: Yeah. She –

Amanda: – for me.

Sarah: It doesn’t look like passion; it looks like a coma.

Amanda: Yeah.

And then, going to page 9, it’s where they do, like, the reader letters –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Amanda: – that you can mail in, you can email, and there was one that just, I thought was so sweet, and it’s called, I’m assuming it’s supposed to be the “The Grateful Read” like The Grateful Dead –

Sarah: Yeah.

Amanda: – but to me it makes more sense as “The Grateful Read [reed]”?

Sarah: Yeah –

Amanda: No.

Sarah: – I agree.

Amanda: Either way, it’s a pun that doesn’t land. [Laughs] And this is from a, a Ruth Dennie, who does not list an address, so we have no clue where she lives, and she, she says:

>> I want to send a big thank-you for a terrific job. I’ve been buying the magazine since it was printed like a newspaper, and you’ve been getting better and better every year. I’m a sixty-three-year-old mother and grandmother, and I’ve been buying romance books for at least forty-five years. Your magazine makes finding great books easy. I’ve had four back surgeries and sometimes pain makes it difficult to get around. With your magazine I can make my list, and my children can get them for me. Many really great writers have gotten me through some tough times. You can lose yourself in a wonderful story. I’ve been to faraway places and shared in great adventures, so please keep up the wonderful work. Your efforts are greatly appreciated.

Sarah: That’s so sweet.

Amanda: …for forty-five years of reading romance? Oh boy!

Sarah: Well, I mean, the site’s twenty years old; can you imagine?

Amanda: I know! I’m trying to think what romances – ‘cause my knowledge of romance probably stops around like the mid ‘80s? Beginning of ‘80s? Like, I’m loosely familiar with what was being published at that time. But if this came out in 2000, you know, you’re talking about, what, ’55? If my math is correct? Like, what romances were being published in the like ‘50s and ‘60s? What was the romance landscape like at that time if she’s been reading for forty-five years?

Sarah: Because what’s interesting about that question is later on in the magazine when they’re talking about the two hundredth anniversary, there is a timeline of them tracing back romance to the original books, and that was the early ‘70s is as far back as they went. So if she’s been buying romance books for forty-five years, I think there’s probably things we wouldn’t necessarily, like, classify as romance that she’s saying? Or maybe she read a lot of Mills & Boon. If she was sixty-three in 2000, that means that she was probably born around 1937, and I’m not finding any Ruth Dennies that were born around that time. There was a Ruth Dennie born in 1927 of St. Albans, who passed away in 2020, and a Ruth Dennie who was born in 1932,  who passed away in 2014, so I’m, it’s probably safe to assume that Ruth Dennie is no longer with us, but I really like the part where we look at these letters and, like, we’re getting to hear from people who just really love romance the way we do?

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: It’s very sweet.

Amanda: And you listed another letter on this page.

Sarah: I did. I think this is so wild. We’ve talked in the past about how authors in RT would be like, Send me mail! Here’s my address! And sometimes it was like their house address; it wasn’t a P. O. Box. And at one point Kathe Robin had published her phone number, which I’m still working on. Diana Rubino, who’s one of the few authors in this magazine to have her name as her URL – there’s a lot of Angelfire and Geocities in this magazine for author sites, but dianarubino.com was hers; good for her. “Call on Us”

>> I just had one of the greatest moments of my new career as an author. I received a phone call from a fan.

Okay.

>> An avid –

Amanda: But how’d your fan get your number?

Sarah: How did your fan get your number, and if that happened now, I don’t think that authors would take it very well.

>> I received a phone call from a fan! An avid RT reader, she saws the reviews of my historicals, bought them, and loved them. Thanks so much, RT. I truly appreciate the publicity, which every new author needs. RT has certainly helped launch my career.

Could you imagine being a person who reads about a bunch of books in a magazine, and the community that’s built up around this magazine seems so close that you read the books, and then you think, I’m going to call the author and tell her how much I love her books. Which is such a genuine thing to do, and if I were on the receiving end of it, I would be freaked the fuck out.

[Laughter]

Sarah: But I’m glad she was thrilled! Like, good for her!

Amanda: Yeah!

Sarah: I also want to point out, we talked a little bit about the picture of Cherif Fortin on the Table of Contents. A lot of this magazine is about looking back at the last twenty years of RT, a dedication to Melinda Helfer, who died suddenly before this magazine came out – she was their major reviewer – and then all of these, there’s a lot of, like, little author cameos and little, you know, testimonials from authors, and there is so much, like, look at, looking back at themselves? So the part where they are looking back on themselves, and then here we are twenty-five years in the future celebrating our twentieth anniversary, looking back on them celebrating their twentieth anniversary, it’s kind of like, it’s kind of cool.

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: So let’s get on with the articles. We start with “Celebrating Twenty Years of Romantic Times” by Kathryn Falk, Lady of Barrow. There’s a picture of her – I hope that’s a hat – with, with Fabio. And on the first page, on 10, there’s – [laughs] – there’s a picture of Bertrice Small and Kathryn, like, outside, clearly outside in their nightgowns, just faffing about! And Bertrice Small looks like, it’s such an unflattering picture of her! Boy…

Amanda: I know. A lot of these are unflattering photos.

Sarah: Yeah, it’s, it’s kind of terrible. Like, it’s really, really unflattering.

One thing I was curious about, if anyone listening knows what this means. So this is what Kathryn wrote:

>> Before computers, I remember writing copy on a five-year-old Selectric typewriter with a self-erasing tape, running about and cajoling typesetters, waxing down galleys, fixing changes with an X-acto knife, and spending late hours at my person’s house hunched over mechanicals.

What is waxing down a galley?

Amanda: Maybe like a treatment for the paper?

Sarah: Maybe! But when I google it, all I get is waxing and polishing your boat!

Amanda: I get a lot of Brazilian wax…

Sarah: Yeah! All right, what if I google waxing down magazine galley? What does that mean? Heavy metal madness waxing nostalgic over paste up.

Amanda: Waxing on a magazine gives me gun stuff.

Sarah: Yeah, you’ve got to, I got those too, yep.

Amanda: Waxing down a book –

Sarah: Okay.

Amanda: – refers to the process of applying a thin layer of wax, usually to protect it from moisture, wear and tear, and to give it a smooth polished finish.

Sarah: Oh wow! I found an article on CreativePro, Waxing Nostalgic about Print Processes.

>> The paste-up artist could count on any number of work-related setbacks. Accidentally putting the galley in the waxer upside-down meant scraping wax off the type for an hour.

If you scroll down on CreativePro, in the section There Was No Hazard Pay Back Then? There’s a picture of a woman using what appears to be a waxer! The –

>> Try the world’s bestselling wax coater and join over a hundred and fifty thousand satisfied Daige customers who cut paste-up time by fifty percent.

Oh, so it’s actually waxing the page so that it goes – oh, that’s fascinating! Okay.

Amanda: My late grandfather worked in commercial printing?

Sarah: Oh!

Amanda: In south Florida, and his job title was Stripper? And so that caused a lot of confusion for me. [Laughs] But yeah, like, his job for, like, printing was, like, stripping, and it has to do with, like, negatives, I think, and, like, preparing the plates, but I’m not, like, sure. But also, like, so weird! Why do you, why do all these things have names that could be something else?

Sarah: I know. And especially if you google it now, it’s boats and guns. That’s very weird.

Amanda: [Laughs] Boats and guns.

Sarah: So you wanted to point out page 11, which is full of pictures. There’s a picture of Barbara Cartland. There’s Kathryn Falk and Walter Zachharius, who is the founder of Kensington, and Kathryn calls them the king and queen of romance publishing, which is so funny.

Amanda: Yeah, and in more unflattering photos –

Sarah: Oh –

Amanda: – in the bottom – [laughs] –

Sarah: – it’s so great! [Laughs] It’s so good!

Amanda: – in the bottom right-hand of the page:

>> Rosemary Rogers oozed sensuality in her books and in real life as she danced at one of the many parties at Kathryn’s home in the early ‘80s.

This was not a flattering photo.

Sarah: No, she looks like she’s had a few, and she is getting down. But all of this is to sort of highlight that the epicenter of romance is Kathryn Falk. They come to her house and the, and they come have parties at her house. She and Bertrice Small had sleepovers at Bertrice’s home, and that’s why they’re running around in their nightgowns. The house I’ve probably been to; I did not know that they had sleepovers there. All of these costumes and all of these pictures have Kathryn Falk right in the middle, that she is the epicenter of the publishing industry. She sort of puts, positions herself that way. And at this – like, who’s going to argue with her? And it is so fascinating to me how much of romance as we read it right now was shaped by RT and Kathryn Falk? Like, it’s kind of, like, I get a little emotional when I think about how this magazine? You once said, you once said something so smart, I think about it all the time: that the conference was the magazine come to life. That you created a conference out of the community around a magazine, and we have a community around Smart Bitches. Like, we have regulars, we have people who are, like, people who will flag errors for me, which is amazing, and we’ve got people who’ve been talking to us for ages and ages and ages. I’ve now started meeting people at book signings who said, I read your site in college; I read your site in high school. And it’s like, you know, twenty years later, they’re whole-ass adults with jobs now.

Amanda: Yeah. I read your site in high school.

Sarah: Yeah! Like –

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: And now you know all the dirty secrets. [Laughs]

Amanda: I do. I am part of some of the dirty secrets!

Sarah: That’s right!

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: But all of this looking back is fascinating, because she is trying to, like, define the history of the magazine and her own role in it, and founding a magazine that became something that big is no small feat? At the same time, seeing her position herself as like the epicenter of history is so interesting. Like, I’m fascinated by this. There’s a certain specific kind of chutzpah that I kind of, like, I admire it, and I do not have it. [Laughs] I’m plenty ballsy, I have lots of chutzpah, but not in that department.

Then we get an article by Carol Stacy, who was the publisher forever and ever, probably the publisher the whole time, and she talks about what it was like when she arrived at Romantic Times, and this is a quote from her article:

>> I quickly learned that rules and conformity were not in Kathryn’s vocabulary, and soon the adventure began.

So that sounds like a great workplace that sometimes was probably fun and sometimes you probably sat there and thought, Why? Why, why? Why are we doing this? What is happening? But there’s also pictures of older issues of Romantic Times, including the Fabio, the Fabster, and when they went to full color. It’s – and there’s a picture of the very first one which featured an, a book exert – oh boy – a book exert, excerpt of China Bride with Janet Dailey. Whoo!

So then there’s a, a whole memorial page and lots of commentary about Melinda Helfer, who apparently died very suddenly, so quickly that Kathryn and Carol Stacy could not get to Baltimore, where she was, before she passed away. They were on, they were on their way to Penn Station in New York and then learned that they were too late.

All right, so I think that you and Melinda Helfer would have great conversations, Amanda? She had an extraordinary memory and could remember most of the ten thousand books she reviewed over the past two decades and the thousands she’d – yes! This person’s brain and your brain are friends.

Amanda: Kindred spirits.

Sarah: [Laughs] So then it’s like more memories of Melinda and people writing in. Then we get this weird article. I don’t know what to make of this. Page 22 of the PDF: “Twenty Reasons to Celebrate the Twentieth Anniversary of Skye O’Malley by Bertrice Small.” Was this that big of a book?

Amanda: I mean, I’ve heard about it. Did we run a review of it? We might have. Redheadedgirl might have run one; I can’t remember.

Sarah: So, you know, we were just talking about how Amanda has a memory. Yes! Redheadedgirl reviewed it in 2015. It’s kind of frightening to me. So deadly scary. There’s a, this is, this is a vintage Bertrice Small, and if you know Bertrice Small books, there’s lots happening in there. I’m kind of baffled by twenty points of information about this book. I know it became a series, and I know there are a bunch of books, and I guess it was really popular, but the, the points are very weird. I do like eighteen:

>> Strong values and beliefs: With a libido the size of Texas, enough money for a country of her own, and mesmerizing beauty, Skye never loses sight of what really matters.

Amanda: But where’s that quote from? Like, some of the people they have quotes attributed to them, but then some don’t. Or is it just like who’s saying this? The magazine, I guess?

Sarah: Well, in this one –

>> Of her royal rival, Skye comments, Until Bess Tudor has a husband and loyal friends like mine, she has nothing of value at all. I pity her.

So I guess that’s just a quote from the book? But otherwise a lot of these titles are not cite –

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: – or the quotes are not really cited. There’s also Ticia Miller, who ran TheWorldOfBertriceSmall.com talking about this, but I just, I didn’t know, I didn’t know that Skye O’Malley had that much of an impact on people. Like, I was like, Really? This is the one? Like, there are all of those books that we just talked about as foundational in romance? I think they could have done more with that and not just been like, And Skye O’Malley! It’s amazing! Okay. Weird.

Amanda: The World of Bertrice Small is no more. Sorry, everybody.

Sarah: That’s very sad. I do believe that Bertrice Small’s descendants have started renovating and updating her website recently. I think I got an email about it.

Amanda: It looks like – I’m at the Bertrice Small website – it looks like her descendants had an auction at the end of the year in December. It’s the final Bertrice auction. If you’ve ever wanted to bid on something, like manuscripts, books, etc. –

Sarah: Oh my goodness!

Amanda: – now is the time! So yeah, they auctioned off like thirteen pages of stuff!

Sarah: Having been in Bertrice –

Amanda: Yeah! And they’re selling, they’re selling mugs that say, like –

Sarah: Ohhh!

Amanda: – Skye O’Malley on them, too.

Sarah: Oh my goodness.

Amanda: So I guess that was a big deal!

Sarah: They are auctioning off some of the books from her office. I re- – okay, so there’s a picture of All the Queen’s Men, vintage 1972. I remember seeing that book in her office. I, she invited me back to see her etchings, and the carpet in there was pink and came up to your ankles. But I remember seeing some of these books. Her research library was amazing, and she kept all her research notes in folders?

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: Romance Novel Madness by Judy Galbraith was something that was auctioned off. It is a comic about romance novels! No, romance novel readers.

>> The newest literary mania, the romance novel, those spicy little tales of sex and sinew which pump hope and inspiration into the flagging hearts of wishful heroines the world over.

Hate that! I kind of want to buy this book and see what’s inside it.

Amanda: What was, what sold her the most was the author’s personal copy with inscription of, was it The Kadin?

Sarah: Kadin, yeah.

Amanda: Kadin, for five hundred and ten dollars.

Sarah: Oh, dear goodness! That’s quite, quite well! Okay! Original typed first draft with handwritten author edits of Forbidden Pleasures. Okay, there was one book that, of Bertrice Small’s, that I read a hundred times, and I would have bid on the, I would have bid on the research notes for Blaze Wyndham.

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: I loved that book. It was such a shtupping-through-history book, and I loved it. I brought it to Spain with me when I had limited luggage room. Read it a hundred times. Wow. Okay. This is, that’s pretty cool. If it didn’t sell, I might reach out and be like, Can I, can I, can I buy this from you? ‘Cause I would like that. So cool.

Amanda: It got zero bids!

Sarah: I know! What are people doing? I don’t understand!

Amanda: I know, yeah. I don’t think they publicized this enough.

Sarah: I, I don’t think I knew about it, but, like, hey!

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: So on page –

Amanda: Yeah, reach out! See if you can get those.

Sarah: Yeah, right?

On page 25 of RT, I wanted to, like, highlight this little section? This is “The Rising Stars of Romance,” which I know is a pay section. First of all, if you look at page 24, Julie Kenner is there? Who now writes, I think, as J. Kenner? Had a long career.

Amanda: Oh yeah.

Sarah: And then on page 25, there are people who are advertising their books, but they’re putting their headshots? Which I find such an interesting choice, because you want to enforce the cover in your memory. You don’t want to – like, no one’s going to meet you; they’re going to see your book in the store. That’s what you want to emphasize.

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: But at the top we have Virginia DeMasi’s Grace’s Private Sanctuary with a big picture of a waterfall, and it’s a little suggestive.

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: And then next to it – I put this in the document – In the Shadow of the Moon, Karen White, Dorchester – ah, Dorchester – August 2000. I’m pretty sure that’s John DeSalvo, and I think he’s dead.

Amanda: [Laughs] RIP, John DeSalvo.

Sarah: Right? Like, there’s this woman behind him, he’s got his shirt unbuttoned and tucked in – yes! – chest out, muscles rippling. He’s leaning back, but she’s got her hand wrapped around, like, the side of his neck, and the other hand on his abdomen. I think she just killed him!

Amanda: Yep. That’s okay.

Sarah: But it’s also a time travel, and he’s Confederate soldier Stuart Elliott. Another Stuart!

Amanda: Another Stuart…

Sarah: What are we doing with all these Stuarts? I don’t understand!

So you wanted to look at page 29.

Amanda: Yeah! So they, there’s a big, like, side banner that is talking about the next Romantic Times conference that’s happening in Houston, and then they mention that there’s going to be also a female cover model pageant, and I think that’s the first time in my memory that we’ve seen an advertisement for, like, a, a Miss Romance instead of a Mister Romance, but I have a feeling like it didn’t do very well, because I don’t remember that happening at any of the RTs that I attended. So – [laughs]

Sarah: You, you have, you have to read the paragraph, because I think we can tell why it was –

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: – not a success.

Amanda: >> For the first time ever Kensington Books will be choosing a Ms. Romance this year, headed, headed up by the Cindy, by Cindy Guyer. Every woman at least eighteen years of age who attends the Sunday book fair will have the opportunity to walk the runway in front of a team of judges, two of whom are Hollywood agents.

Sarah: You’ve got to be kidding me.

Amanda: And one will – [laughs] –

>> And one will win a trip to New York and a contract to be on the cover of a romance novel. Talk about an equal opportunity employer!

[Laughter]

Sarah: You too can be exploited! So you, so you’re going to the book fair, right? Remember the, remember the Romantic Times book fair? People came to do battle. Like, they had carts –

Amanda: …bows.

Sarah: Yeah! Elbows, like, trying – ‘cause, you know, you’d, you’d, if you got to an author first, you might get something special. Sometimes they advertise come to my table first and you get this thing. But, like, people come to do battle. They’re in sweats. They’ve got trolleys; they’ve got carts. Like, they are there to get books. I do not think that anyone is going to walk the runway because they showed up to the book fair. I, I –

Amanda: No.

Sarah: And that’s two different audiences there. Okay, if anyone remembers the Ms. Romance pageant, I really need to know.

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: On the bottom of this page is a correction, and –

Amanda: There’s two!

Sarah: Yeah. So here’s a thing that I heard and I can’t verify: Kathryn Falk had a habit of publishing names of authors that were coming to the convention when they hadn’t agreed to do so and they weren’t planning on it. She would just say, Oh, so-and-so’s coming! And then, then people would have to place ads saying, No, I am not coming. Like, thank you, but no. So then they had to pay to place an ad to correct what had been reported in the magazine. So:

>> Correction: Julia Quinn will not be attending the convention; therefore she is not participating in the workshop “Pearls of the First Water: Writing the Regency Era Historical Romance.”

Amanda: What?! I’d be like, What chutzpah to be like this person’s participating in a workshop and then be like, jk! They’re not.

Sarah: I kind of want to email her and ask, Do you remember this? Did they just say you were coming and you had to be like, No, and also no? That’s wild.

And then the next pair, page is the book fair, where they’re listing all the names, and then at the bottom:

>> The following authors have not yet registered, but have said they’ll be there!

And, you know, it’s –

Amanda: That’s a, that’s a big list.

Sarah: Yeah.

Amanda: Like, Edith Layton’s on there; Sandra Kitt is on there.

 Sarah: Galen Foley, Stef Ann Holm and Monica Jackson are on there. Ah, Monica Jackson.

Amanda: That’s a beefy list, yeah.

Sarah: Sandra Kitt? Come on! Like, yeah, this, this was an interesting – Karen Ranney? Damn!

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: So on page 39, there is an ad for a book called Marrying Jezebel by Hillary Fields, and I put this on Bluesky saying, Oh, that’s how I feel about the current administration! Thanks, romance cover!

Amanda: [Laughs] It sounds like an interesting book, but I always sort of get a little nervous about any historical British novels that are set in Egypt.

Sarah: Yeah. And also her name is Jezebel Montclair.

Amanda: Yeah, her parents did her a disservice with that one.

Sarah: Yeah, they really did. So it is a, it is a Regency that takes place both in Egypt and in London. That can be a dicey prospect, but I didn’t even read the cover copy before I wrote the alt text on Bluesky for this. So Marrying Jezebel and Hillary Fields are in screaming pink. Like, that’s, that’s the hot pink.

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: And then there’s a blue background and this woman with a big, green necklace and a white dress that’s falling off of her that has some sort of embroidery. I thought that was attempting to be indigenous, but then I also noticed that there’s no fringe, and you can’t have an indigenous character on a romance cover without like nine miles of fringe. Very important.

Amanda: Am I – I can’t tell what that is. Maybe just like embroidery of some…

Sarah: Yeah, or, or maybe it’s supposed to be like a, an Egyptian pattern reference and I can’t pick it up, but she’s, she’s got one knee on a rock, and there’s a man kneeling in front of her.

Amanda: She’s also barefoot!

Sarah: Barefoot.

Amanda: Feet for free. You can see –

Sarah: Yep.

Amanda: – those piggies.

Sarah: [Laughs] Feet for free! No free feet, people. Right under the H in Hillary are the toes!

Amanda: Yeah! I would have covered that up with the author name! Don’t give those away!

Sarah: In front of her is this blond guy with muscles, khaki pants that I’m pretty sure are from Abercrombie, a leather belt, and a shirt that is off and also untucked, but she’s behind him –

Amanda: She’s going to light him on fire.

Sarah: She’s got a torch! And she’s pulling off his shirt. She’s upright behind him. He’s kneeling in front of her, facing away from her, and she’s just going to light him on fire!

Amanda: Yeah. She’s over it.

Sarah: Yeah! I mean, it’s a pity that her name’s Jezebel Montclair, but Marrying Jezebel is a hell of a title!

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: The thing about this book that I think we need to bring back is in the book details. She’s described as a complete and utter hoyden. I think we need to bring back the word hoyden. It’s a great word. It means boisterous, but it’s only used to describe romance heroines, and, you know, we need, we need more hoydens! Let’s get on that.

And then you wanted to look at page 56.

Amanda: Yes!

Sarah: Oh, we’ve got writing tips. I love a good writing tip. This was fun, because it was absurd.

Amanda: Yeah. So Kat Martin – I think Kat does mostly romantic suspense, right?

Sarah: Lot of authors pivoted from historical to romantic suspense.

Amanda: Yeah. Has a, an article called “’The Great Myth’ about Writing,” and at the end sort of gives you six tips for helping you sort of coordinate, like, writing time, stuff like that. And number five just made me laugh, because she says:

>> Take a portable computer along with you. Sneaking in an hour of editing here and there helps move the book to completion.

And I’m just thinking, What are the sides, sizes of portable computers in the year 2000?

Sarah: They probably had a little wheelie bag ‘cause they weighed so frigging much!

Amanda: And who has the funds to buy a, a portable computer, ‘cause we weren’t calling them laptops then –

Sarah: Nope.

Amanda: – apparently. Who can afford one? And then how the fuck are you carting this along? And so I just thought it was funny. But you also liked number three. [Laughs]

Sarah: I did. Number three – not number two, not number one, three:

>> Carve out time for your husband and children. Remember they need your attention too.

Amanda: No.

Sarah: This, this – [laughs] – this is wild to me, because it’s both arguing that your writing life is important and you can set aside time and space and, and isolate yourself to do it, but, you know, remember your children and husband need attention too. I remember so many speeches at RWA for the RITAs where the writer would thank their husband for looking after the kids while they were writing, and thank you to the hus-, thank you to my children for putting up with pizza for another night because I was writing. Like, that, that, I’m, I’m sorry for neglecting my primary responsibilities, which is to be the homemaker and child-rearer and wife, that just makes my skin crawl down my body and is now running away down the hall, just the worst. Remember, your children need attention too.

All right, and now it’s the biggest part of this magazine, the thing we are the most excited to tell you about!

Amanda: It’s Extreme Troy, everyone!

Sarah: Extreme Troy! [percussive sound effect] Okay. So right in the middle of the magazine is a full-color display, and there’s two pages, and they’re both amazing. So I will take, I will take 64, and you should take 65.

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: Okay?

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: I just need everyone to know that what, what usually happens if this is an older magazine is I will sit at my, my, like, my flatbed scanner, ‘cause I can’t cut these up, ‘cause I need to donate them to Bowling Green when I’m done. I, you know, fold the pages carefully, and I scan them page by page. It takes me about two, two and a half hours to get through the whole magazine ‘cause it’s so frigging big. I listen to podcasts and I, you know, fuck around with the internet. I got to this section and I stopped scanning because I could not look away from these pages. They are incredible.

So first we have Jettison. The Poster will be in Houston! It’s a Star Trek novel by D. E. White, and it’s this guy with long hair and a leather vest and leather pants and a weird weapon standing on some kind of a cliff with a fire behind him, but the Poster is him in a gold – [laughs] – gold chain and a gold belt and leather pants with some very strategic bulges in the front, and he’s so shiny. He is so shiny! In the magazine it’s even more shiny. Like, it’s just so glistening.

Amanda: Well, it’s waxed! We learned that the magazine gets –

Sarah: They waxed his, they waxed his galley, didn’t they? Whoo!

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: So I found a Reddit thread in a subreddit called Bad Sci-fi Characters where they posted the picture of Jettison. It’s an even better picture of this cover – [laughs] – and –

Amanda: Oh –

Sarah: – apparently this was – what is Star Trek TOS?

Amanda: [Uncertain noises]

Sarah: Star Trek – what is Star Trek TOS?

Amanda: The Original Series.

Sarah: Okay, so this is Star Trek The Original Series fanfic written to be its own thing –

Amanda: Look at –

Sarah: – and then the second comment is –

Amanda: What a precursor! Fanfic to book? Look at this!

Sarah: Yeah, look at this! It’s a, this is a groundbreaking novel. This should be up in that list with, you know, The Flame and the Flower and The Kadin. There’s one comment:

>> There is a lot of leather in that outfit. Nice colonial marine pulse rifle, though!

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: >> Just look at the work put into making the sunset reflect on his shiny pants!

And so if you look under his crotch, it looks like –

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: – he’s on fire! [Laughs] It’s glowing orange! It’s amazing. I will link to this thread; do not miss out. The last comment is – I’m sorry, Canada –

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: >> Justin Trudeau, Justin Trudeau the early years.

Amanda: Oh my God.

Sarah: He does look a little like Justin Trudeau. This is just, he’s so shiny! He’s so shiny! But then! Then you turn the page. I –

Amanda: And it’s Extreme Troy.

[Laughter]

Sarah: Extreme Troy! I saw this while I was scanning, and I was like, I have to let Amanda discover this on her own. I can’t sp-, I cannot spoil Extreme Troy. I just need to let her discover – [laughs] – just read this page; it’s absurd!

Amanda: So it, it’s for a cover model named Troy Sutter, and it says Extreme Troy in blue, and then it says, Oh, you want this!

Sarah: I don’t, actually, but okay.

Amanda: [Laughs] And it says:

>> The strikingly handsome, pulse-stopping –

Why would you want to stop anyone’s pulse?

>> – sexy Troy Sutter, his melting looks, that hard body, that blinding smile. If you do nothing else romantic this year, you have to BUY THIS CALENDAR!

Sarah: EXTREME TROY!

Amanda: And so he’s selling a calendar of himself, so there’s a giant image of him coming out of a pool, and then there’s another three smaller images at the bottom. One, he is in black slacks and a black blazer, no shirt, and he’s leaning against a railing with a red rose. There’s one where he’s sort of lounging with his, like, legs spread on a wooden bench, black slacks, open button-down shirt. And then there’s one where he’s, like, posing at a construction site. He’s got jeans and boots, very sweaty and shiny, and he’s holding a sledgehammer.

Sarah: So –

Amanda: And it says –

Sarah: – so shiny.

Amanda: >> Troy burns up the paper with this one, and he’ll be back in the Mr. Romance 2000 competition at the Romantic Times convention in Houston. COME SEE TROY IN HOUSTON!

Sarah: All caps!

[Laughter]

Sarah: Now I am really sad to inform everyone, first of all it was coming soon to www.amazon.com.

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: I have been searching for the Troy Sutter Extreme Troy 2001 calendar, and I cannot find it. There is an ISBN number. There is a whole, like, line of citations of who did the digital editing and the photographer and the copyright, and I cannot find this calendar, and I’m really sad! [Laughs]

Amanda: Oh.

Sarah: Wait, does TroySutter.com still exist? Nope, it does not.

Amanda: No.

Sarah: So if you’re ever at a, a used bookstore maybe or someplace that has old calendars and you find Extreme Troy, we really need to know. [Laughs]

Amanda: Yes, please.

Sarah: Extreme Troy! So amazing. I’m so glad I didn’t spoil that for you.

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: I bet you, I bet you cackled!

Amanda: I did. [Laughs]

Sarah: 70, there’s an – oh, so this is excerpts where people can publish like, what, four paragraphs of a book. Shirley Hailstock is in here, and Lynda Simmons has This Magic Moment, and then there’s Emma Craig’s Cooking Up Trouble.

Amanda: She poisoned that man. That’s what happened.

Sarah: Oh! Oh my God! This cover is amazing in color. I am going to send it to you! It is just, you’ve got to see the look on this woman’s face. She is looking at the reader like she’s going to poison this guy, and you’re going to watch. And there’s John DeSalvo just sniffing her hair.

Amanda: Another dead John DeSalvo.

Sarah: Well, he’s going to be dead, ‘cause she’s going to poison him.

On page 105, we have yet another line from Silhouette or Harlequin. I swear to God, they start lines and then they shut them down.

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: >> Will City Girls find true love? Next year, Silhouette is launching their most contemporary line yet entitled City Girls. These –

Amanda: The most contemporary!

Sarah: Yeah. We were, we were talking about now before, but now we’re talking about really right now, like now-now-now. Like, the book is being written while you read it maybe, so much now.

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: >> These stories will chronicle the lives of single women in their twenties and thirties in the style of Bridget Jones’s Diary.

Okay! 

Amanda: Okay.

Sarah: On page 118, could you just read this headline for me, because it makes me laugh?

Amanda: >> Eerie, Exciting, Ethereal, Erotic E-Books!

And then says:

>> E-books are more fun than bobbing for apples.

[Laughs]

Sarah: Really? Are you sure?

Amanda: That’s what it says! What if you’re –

Sarah: Imagine –

Amanda: – bobbing for e-books instead? Just a bunch of e-books floating in a barrel.

Sarah: How do you bite an e-book?

Amanda: It could be flat, right?

Sarah: That’s true; could be a CD-ROM. But they are, hey, these are available in CD-ROM. They’re also available Adobe Acrobat (PDF), RTF, and RocketBook. Ooh, those are old formats.

Amanda: RocketBook.

Sarah: Can you imagine the, the meeting where they’re like, what’s our ad going to be? Well, we need some alliteration with e-books. What E words do we have? Energetic, elephantine – yeah. Like, this is such a silly ad; I love it.

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: On pa-, on page 128 we have:

>> Create your own fantasy vacation and win a Lady Barrow tour to Italy, England, or Scotland.

She’s leading tours now!

Amanda: Yeah. I wonder what the, like, tour size is. Like, I wonder how many people is, is it capped at.

Sarah: Did you read the, the, the requirements?

Amanda: That’s –

Sarah: Okay, she’s, if I’m reading this correctly, she’s making the people who enter the contest do the work of planning the tour.

>> Kathryn is announcing a contest for RT readers. All you have to do is let your fantasies run wild and you could win a dream holiday. To enter the contest, you must create a ten-day fantasy vacation with an in-depth day-to-day itinerary that could be considered for a future Lady Barrow tour. See ladybarrow.com for existing tours and itineraries to get some ideas.

>> The winning qualities Kathryn will be looking for are affordability, practicality, interesting and obscure locations, and unique romantic destinations of interest to Romantic Times readers. Location does not necessarily have to be based on any existing setting from a romance novel, so get creative.

So you have to send in a ten-page, detailed, in-depth itinerary for your dream vacation to be considered for a future Lady Barrow tour where she can just take that entry and make a tour!

Amanda: I’m not doing all that.

Sarah: >> The winner will receive a free tour package, including airfare, for one of the upcoming Lady Barrow adventures, including the tour to England, Italy, or Scotland.

This is so fascinating to me. I say that a lot, and I mean it every time. I mean it every time I say it. I, my brain is like, Ooh! Because I’ve noticed a bunch of different influencers, particularly influencers that talk about the British royal family, partnering with a tour company where they’re trying to get their followers to go on vacations with them.

Amanda: That’s a nightmare! I don’t want to do that!

Sarah: I was going to ask if you wanted to! I was going to give your name to them! But never mind!

Amanda: There’s no one I follow on social media that I’m like, Wow, I would love to go on a vacation with this…

Sarah: Like, I don’t, I don’t understand this. The first time I saw it I was like, Oh! But people really signed up! Like, people signed up to go.

So Amanda Matta of @matta_of_fact – and I’m not criticizing any influencer who does it – collect the bag. Go to, go travel! I mean, I’m sure if you’re the sponsoring influencer you get a discount, so hey, even better. She’s led tours to Scotland and London, I think they’re doing one to Ireland, and if you book, like, early-early you get a discount. But she is designing the itineraries and then is on the tours with you, and you’ll get plenty of time for shopping and some meals are included. So it’s really fascinating to see that now and then look back in 2000 and Lady Barrow is doing the same thing. She’s basically –

Amanda: Kathryn Falk, ahead of the times. Yeah.

Sarah: – Kathryn Falk, the OG influencer.

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: The –

Amanda: She would love that title.

Sarah: The back cover, inside cover, is Shannon Drake, who’s also Heather Graham, When Darkness Falls. It’s a big, it’s a big gargoyle.

And the back cover is Indigo after dark, beyond sensuous, coming from Genesis Press February 2001.

Amanda: I don’t know what this is! Is this a book?

Sarah: I think it’s a line.

Amanda: Okay.

Sarah: I’m pretty sure this is a line of Black romances? I thought Genesis Press was Black romances? But this is like, I’m not going to remember any of this.

Amanda: No! Unless you go to genesis-press.com.

Sarah: Does it still exist? Does Indigo still exist?

Amanda: Let’s see.

Sarah: I love how –

Amanda: …Indigo’s…

Sarah: – when I edit there’s parts where I’m just like, Oh, I’ve got to take out this part while we’re, while, where we’re googling.

Amanda: Googling, there’s always a part. Nope, Genesis Press is gone. You can buy the domain for two thousand, six hundred and ninety-five dollars!

Sarah: At, HugeDomains.com has bought this one. Okay, sure.

Amanda: Huge domains. [Laughs]

Sarah: This is something I’ve never understood about publishing, and I know people who work in publishing might listen to this podcast, and I’m very sorry, but I have never understood the idea of marketing the line? Like, I get it for Harlequin. Harlequin lines are branded, and their goal was to sell you the line and not the author, which is why the authors will always, like, in a smaller typeface. Like, the goal was to sell the line, Harlequin Presents, and then maybe you develop a following for certain authors, but you were getting all those books if you were a subscriber. I feel like publishers have this expectation that readers know who they are.

Amanda: No. They don’t.

Sarah: They really don’t.

So you wrote, This felt like a yearbook. Tell me everything.

Amanda: Yeah! It did! I mean, you had, like, the little pictures, and then you have the reviewers and other authors sort of writing about Romantic Times and its influence. Yeah, it just gave me major yearbook vibes. Like, look at all the popular kids. You know, here’s, like, like, the superlatives and you know the, the little tiny yearbook-sized photos of all the reviewers with their names and how long they’ve been writing and what, or how long they’ve been reviewing and what they’re reviewing for in terms of genre. So – [laughs]

Sarah: This really did feel like a, like a yearbook that, with the popular kids? I just noticed –

Amanda: Yeah.

Sarah: I just noticed on page 125 the, like, the, the orphaned end of the Cherif article has the Angelfire site that we –

Amanda: [Laughs]

Sarah: – saw! Oh my God! Yep. CherifFortin/Cherif, or however you – I’m going to call him and be like, Can you tell me how to say your name? ‘Cause I said it like thirty times incorrectly. Sorry about that.

There were so many author websites that were geocities.com, like, website.net/personal/author’s-name. Like, it was the early days of, of websites.

This really was like part book magazine and part magazine about itself?

Amanda: Yeah. It was a weird one.

Sarah: I wonder if any of the authors who are in this magazine, like, look back at this and be like, Oh, that was a good time, or are they like, Wow, that was expensive?

Amanda: You’ll have to reach out and be like, On the down low –

Sarah: I do have, I do have a, a plan. I have a little list –

Amanda: Oh!

Sarah: – that I want to reach out to Heather Graham and ask if she’d be willing to do a podcast interview talking about the behind-the-scenes of her shows at the conference!

Amanda: Oh, interesting.

Sarah: Yeah! I mean, I hope she’d agree. Tell us about the behind-the-scenes! What was it like working with Kathryn? What was it like putting on these productions? Like, what did you, how, how did you prepare and why did – different every year, on top of writing books? Like, just tell me all about the conference. So I’m going to try to see if she’ll do that this year, because I think that would be cool.

So what did you think of this issue overall?

Amanda: I mean, I thought it was fine. The, the reviews were okay. No big standouts, except for revisiting A Kiss of Shadows. I mean, like, we don’t read and look at RT to sort of read content about RT, and that’s what this magazine was, or this issue was, is, like, RT Magazine about RT Magazine.

Sarah: Yeah. And at the same time, this magazine was twenty years old and had already built up this big community of readers and a big, you know, big list of reviewers, and the conference had already started, so I’m, I’m curious what readers of Romantic Times thought of the magazine looking back at itself. I mean, it’s a very standard thing to do to look – we’re about to do it – [laughs] – for the anniversary of the site. Like, we are not immune! But I’m wondering what readers thought of this, like, magazine about Romantic Times. Did they like, Oh, I remember that book, or Oh, I remember that model. I’m curious what people who were reading this to shop for books thought of this particular issue.

Amanda: Well, we know the person who sent us this one agreed with some of their –

Sarah: Oh!

Amanda: – their picks.

Sarah: Yeah, Mari, Mari left some marks and was like check, check, check, yep, yep, yep!

Amanda: Yeah. [Laughs]

Sarah: I’m glad to be looking at RT again, because this is so fun. So thank you for doing this!

Amanda: Yeah. [Laughs] You’re welcome!

[outro]

Sarah: And that brings us to the end of this week’s episode. Thank you to Amanda, as always, and thank you to Romantic Times Magazine, because this is so much fun.

Now, if you’re in the Patreon, you might know that I put up a poll to decide what would be the subtitle of this episode, and here from reverse to first are the results of that poll. In fifth place, You Can See Those Piggies. In fourth place, to my shock, It’s Extreme Troy! [Laughs] In third place, He’s So Shiny. In second place we have Chest Hair and a Dead Woman. And in first place, which you probably saw on the episode, We Need to Bring Back Hoyden. I have to think about what my role will be in bringing back hoyden. I promise to use it with increasing frequency.

And as a reminder, if you are in the Patreon, you do get the full PDF scan so you can read the whole magazine, and let me tell you, if you like looking for books and you like retro romance history, this is perfect for you.

Why was the penny always confident?

Give up? Why was the penny always confident?

It knew it was a cent-sation.

[Laughs] Boo! I can hear you booing! I can hear you booing in the future. It’s the one way in which I’m clairvoyant. Every week I do a joke and I mentally hear everyone go, Aw, Sarah! Aw!

On behalf of everyone here, we wish you the very best of reading. Have a wonderful weekend, and we’ll see you back here next week.

And in the words of the podcast Friendshipping, thank you for listening; you are welcome for talking.

[end of music]