Black Widow is the latest film installment in the MCU, finally giving us the backstory for Natasha Romanoff that everyone’s been hollering for. A bunch of us watched it right away and we have thoughts, y’all!
It takes place between Civil War and Infinity War, with Natasha reuniting with the people who were the closest to family she’d ever had (you know, before she met the other Avengers). Of course, we have Scarlett Johansson as Natasha. She’s joined by Florence Pugh as Yelena (the little sister), David Harbour as Alexei (the dad), and Rachel Weisz as Melina (the mom). Together, they’re going to take down the man responsible for the Red Room, which is the Black Widow espionage training program. At some point, all four worked for the Red Room, and Natasha doesn’t have fond memories of her time as an assassin.
The movie opens with a flashback straight out of The Americans, and the Cold War visual references continue throughout. After Yelena and Natasha reunite, the movie morphs into a buddy action movie, with the two sisters racing across Europe to find the surrogate parents that they haven’t seen in years, and searching for clues that will help them stop the Red Room from controlling its recruits.
Because pretty much all of this discussion is a spoiler, we’re putting the majority of this post behind Ye Olde Spoiler Tags. This is meant to be a discussion if you’ve seen the film, so we don’t want to give away too much if you haven’t.
Tara: I liked it! It’s far from a perfect film, but it has a few things going for it that kept me hooked. The humour was the biggest one one, because it helped balance how dark some of the themes are. To me, this is one of the darkest films in the MCU (possibly actually the darkest), because it digs into trauma, human trafficking, and the worldwide expendability of women. If it hadn’t been so funny, it would have been pretty damn bleak. Also, in some cases, the humour cut directly into the heart of an issue, like the Widows’ forced sterilization.
Alexi: Why the aggression, huh? Is it your time of the month?
Yelena: I don’t get my period dipshit. I don’t have a uterus.
Natasha: Or ovaries.
Yelena: That’s what happens when the Red Room gives you an involuntary hysterectomy. They kinda just go in and rip out all your reproductive organs. They just get right in there and chop them all away. So you can’t have babies.
Alexi: OK, OK, you don’t have to get so clinical and nasty!
Yelena: I was just going to talk about fallopian tubes…
I was also not expecting Florence Pugh to steal every scene she’s in. She’s hilarious, with a dry, cutting humour, and she’s also a total badass. Unfortunately, beside Yelena and the bombastic Alexei, Natasha is the least interesting character in her own film. At one point, my husband even turned to me and asked “Whose movie is this?”, because it felt more like Yelena’s than Natasha’s. I could happily watch many more hours of Yelena, so I’m thrilled to hear that she’ll be in all 8 episodes of the new Hawkeye series that will be released later this year.
Elyse: I sort of experienced this on two different levels. On the one hand it was a very meta attempt at fixing Marvel’s previous treatment of Black Widow’s character, and just an enjoyable action movie.
There was a more personal element for me also. I grew up in a household with addiction and abuse, and my sister is really the only person who understands how that shaped me since she was right there too. Natasha and Yelena are similarly trauma bonded. And as an older sister, I felt the pain of not being able to protect my younger sister acutely (even though that wasn’t my, or Natasha’s, job).
It also directly addresses Me Too to the point that Ray Winstone’s character should have been named Shmarvey Smeinstein.
I think the movie operates on two levels: breaking the cycle of trauma on the familial level and on a global level. Melina normalized what happened to her in the Red Room as a means of survival, and her “daughters” aren’t willing or able to do that. The macrocosm is that Natasha and Yelena were used by powerful men in ways that went against their will, and they want to dismantle that entire system and liberate all the Widows.
That sounds like a lot (and it is) but to Tara’s point, the movie nails the humor (sometimes gallows humor) that makes it enjoyable. It’s also not bleak. It’s a theme of “I’m going to fuck shit up for people who need their shit fucked up.”
Shana: I’m representing the casual superhero film watcher here. You know, the person who didn’t know that Black Widow had to make up for Joss Whedon pooping the bed. As someone who’s only seen three MCU films, I was surprised by how much I enjoyed this. It almost works as a stand-alone, especially if you don’t watch the post-credits scene. And I agree with Tara, Natasha’s the weakest part of the movie, although I may be biased by my dislike of Johansson.
These characters were new to me, but the themes were universal enough that I had no trouble getting sucked in. I might be an outlier, but I didn’t find Black Widow particularly dark. At least, not any more than, say, Black Panther or WandaVision. The themes around trauma and trafficking are fully integrated into the story so that it felt like the stakes were important, but it didn’t overshadow the fun of watching women beat the bad guys—with their bodies and their brains.
This reminded me of the Cold War action movies I grew up with, only with women in charge and special effects that didn’t suck. I appreciated that the main emotional storyline is between the sisters, and their would-be parents. There’s no 5 minutes of badly shoehorned romance here. Rachel Weisz is particularly excellent as a world-weary spy; she’s brilliant but caught in a web made by mediocre men. Who can’t relate to that situation? I hope this means we’ll see more women in their fifties kicking butt in action films.
Probably my favorite part of the movie was how the male heroes happily embraced a supporting role. One of them even says he’s the brawn to her brains. I did find myself wishing that the stylized fight scenes were more elaborate. I never tire of watching women beat up men, and there wasn’t quite enough of that for me. What did you think of the decision to have so many fight scenes between women?
Tara: That didn’t bother me, because they all made sense. If they hadn’t, I would have been irked, for sure.
Carrie: As an ardent MCU fan, I thought this movie was…OK. I loved the humor and the dynamics between the sisters. However, it suffered from an over-reliance on plot elements that we’ve already seen in other Marvel movies (faceless Terminator-type antagonist, floating fortress, fight while falling on a piece of said flying fortress). It could have so easily been an ‘A’ movie and instead it’s a ‘B-/C+’ for me. I had to wait all these years for this?
But fear no more! I have fixed it. Marvel, this really wasn’t hard to do. Please note that I accept, check, cash, money order, or PayPal.
…
Natasha: I don’t understand this evil plan. I have to smell his pheromones in order to be under his control? How would this possibly work on anyone more than a foot away from the guy? Are you really telling me that all I need to defeat this guy is a headcold?
Melina: “Pshhh, Natasha, you were never good at science. Let me worry about smells and you just follow my advice here.”
…
On freeing the widows:
Natasha: Now you are free to make your own choices.
Misc. Widow 1: You mean, we are free to make choices on an exploding flying fortress with no identities, no real world contacts, no established safe houses, and no money?
Misc Widow 2: cough*White feminism*cough
…
Also ending scene:
Yelena: I’ll use the intel you gave me to find and free the rest of the Widows.
Natasha: After I break my people out of jail, I’ll leverage a place and some funding so we can set up a support home and remote services for these women. You and I both know that getting free from the chemical restraints is the easy part—they have years of grooming and abuse to deal with, just like we did.
Yelena: For once, that is not a shit plan.
Natasha: And hey, try not to kill anybody. Life is about more than survival, you know.
Yelena: I’ll do my best.
…
Ending Scene: Natasha, Yelena, Alexei, and Melina stand together amidst the wreckage of the Flying Fortress and prepare to go their separate ways:
Melina: When we were undercover in America and posing as a family, we were fake, but surely now we are real.
Yelena: Fuck that! When we were children you and Alexei lied to us, gaslit us, and turned us over to a secret organization knowing that at their hands we, along with other girls, would be subjected to years of emotional, psychological, and physical abuse. Natasha and I are sisters but you two can go fuck yourselves.
…
Carrie: I saw this movie at the Drive-In with a friend who had never seen a Marvel movie. Based on her reaction, this is not the movie to start with—she got the basic gist, but felt like she was missing a lot.
Shana: I didn’t mind missing out on the broader context, but I could see that being frustrating, especially since the beginning drops you in the middle of the action, and the end doesn’t offer full closure either. Overall, I still liked it. Weaving in the fight against women’s exploitation made it more relevant than your usual action movie, and the dark humor hit my sweet spot.
Carrie: The first half was fabulous beyond belief, but eventually it became a hot mess. Not terrible, but not as good as it should have and could have been, either.
Tara: Even with the mess, it was still way more watchable for me than a solid third of the MCU film catalog. I’m glad I saw it and I’ll probably watch it again.
Shana: So, we thought Black Widow was funny, flawed, handled trauma well, and tried to solve past MCU nonsense with mixed success. Bitchery, what did you think?
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I was mixed on it—the whole root of the plot is misogyny and that just wears after a while. I’m also still pissed about what happens to Natasha in End Game—I was deeply suspicious about whether they could somehow redeem that arc and I don’t think they really did.
Also, what does a movie have to do to get an R rating these days? Is it just sex? Because between the violence and the themes, this felt more like an R to me.
(Might we also get a Loki thread? As a romance reader, I have FEELINGS about the finale that I would love to discuss with people who know and love the genre.)
I loved Florence Pugh. She totally made the movie for me. I would have happily watched her and Natasha affectionately bicker for the whole movie. And I loved Yelena talking about pockets. There totally need to be more pockets in women’s clothing!
But I did not like Alexei — not at all. Mainly because of what he says to Yelena/Natasha (which is in your spoiler section). You haven’t seen “your girls” in like 20 years, and that’s the first thing you say to them? Ugh.
I also thought the villain was underwhelming. Yes, he was despicable and evil, but he just wasn’t in the movie enough to leave much of an impression, and he seemed way too easy for Natasha to defeat at the end. I think it would have been more interesting if
had been the villain.
I think the main problem for me was the timing of the movie. It should have come out years — years! — ago. This would have been a great follow-up to WINTER SOLDIER. Natasha could have been like, “Bucky Barnes came back from the dead. Maybe I should make sure that so-and-so is dead too.” Instead, her not knowing that the villain was still around kind of undermined her being a superspy IMO.
Also, knowing what happens to Natasha in ENDGAME decreased all the tension/stakes for me — and it made me sad all over again that she didn’t get a happy ending like Steve in ENDGAME or even a hero’s sendoff like Tony, again in ENDGAME
Overall, I enjoyed the movie, and I hope that we get another BW movie, even if it won’t be with Natasha.
I saw this last weekend and enjoyed it overall, but I admit I’ve enjoyed most of the MCU and rewatch most of movies a bit too frequently. So, odds were good I’d like it.
Not the best, but pretty solid, imo.
I admit I even teared up a bit at the beginning of the post credit bit.
I was left wondering about something in the post credit bit.
Since it plays directly into how to get an infinity stone*, you’d think any records whatsoever would be just “lost obtaining an infinity stone”, which doesn’t translate to “Blame Hawkeye”, even if you knew he was there.
*Still possible with time travel
@Lostshadow
(suggested answer to question behind spoiler tag)
Apologies. I just realized I needed to use instead of [] around the spoiler tag.
Addition to my response to Lostshadows. Apologies for spelling their name incorrectly earlier.
(Hope I get the spoiler tag right this time.)
Or she’s just telling Yelena a plausible-sounding lie.
I’m just kind of salty because the whole purpose of the movie doesn’t seem to be about Natasha but setting up another, new character. When has that happened in a male superhero movie? Sure Tony made cameos in Spider-Man’s films but would an Iron Man film be made to largely showcase someone else? It’s feels like “oh well Scarlett Johansson is getting a little older now, might as well get someone younger to fill that role in the MCU”.
@Michael I: No worries about the name. (I’m from the “never, ever use your real name online” era of internet safety.)
Idk, it still feels off as a reason. After all the problems SHIELD’s files caused by being publicly available, I don’t see them putting many details out there, jic.
It really feels more like the script writer needed to set this conflict up and nobody really thought about who’d actually know what, in universe.
I will definitely be seeing this the second it’s available to me without a) going to an actual theater b) paying a premium streaming fee. We’ve seen all the main MCU stuff up to and including ‘Loki,’ which by the way like @FashionablyEvil I have FEELINGS. (so does Emmett Asher-Perrin over at Tor dot com)
It actually sounds as though this movie did what it needed to do for the next bundle of MCU: set up Yelena as a new main character. The Avengers need some new blood. Now if they will just not completely f**k it up by making Yelena little more than the unrequited-love-interest of one of the boys, that would be nice.
I thought it was okay. Tho, I also feel my more rabid days enjoying the MCU are way behind me. As a matter of fact, I watched it mostly for Florence Pugh–whose acting has made her a fave actress to watch. In many, many ways, this movie felt way more like it was Yelena’s movie (which makes sense given the events during Endgame).
So, in a way, it saddens me that folks who are Natasha fans got shortchanged. Yeah, she was badass and quippy and her bond with Yelena was a delight. But I also finished the movie with the feeling that Disney had done the absolute least in Natasha’s own movie. I’d give it a C-.
“ Shmarvey Smeinstein” LOL! Yeah, that was my thought.
I have mixed feelings. The film feels…truncated somehow. We should have it earlier, but there wasn’t a chance for it to go into development before the seperation of Marvel (as a whole) and Marvel Studios (the films) while Civil War was in production. That’s due to Isaac “no one will pay to see female superheroes” Perlmutter, who also felt RDJ wasn’t worth the money. Then, Iger wanted to fast-track Black Panther and Captain Marvel, so Black Widow was still not a priority. It’s a missed opportunity.
Seeing it now, after the events of Endgame, it feels like an eulogy in some ways. I enjoyed it, despite having to stop and explain things to the f-i-l who insisted on sitting through it with us. (Husband and I paid for access because we can’t get out to the movies due to eldercare issues.) There were moments I laughed and during the…discussion on the plane, I will confess to enjoying watching the men twitch. But I also felt sad at the end because there were things which felt unfinished. (The widows are a good example.)
It is far more watchable than The Hulk. I am also thrilled for Yelena’s entrance into the MCU and for the setup for the upcoming Hawkeye series.