Every now and again, I ask nosy questions around here.
Sarah: Do you have opinions on epigraphs? (Those are the quotes or poems at the beginnings of book sections or sometimes chapters.)
Elyse: Not really.
Amanda: It depends. Sometimes they are cute, sometimes annoying.
NOW EPILOGUES. FUCK THOSE.
Sarah: HA!
Elyse: I almost always skip the epigraph.
Sarah: Amanda, why epilogues, or none?
It’s interesting to me that you skip them, Elyse. I see the epigraph as a puzzle piece. “Why is this here? What is it doing? What’s its meaning?”
Elyse: I essentially have no patience. I skip the dedication, the epigraph, all of that. And I never read the acknowledgements at the end of a book either. I’m not entirely sure why, but I think it’s like rushing to get to the good parts. Let’s get this show started! Even if a chapter of book has lines of poetry or something prefacing it (Elizabeth Hoyt does this) I skip that too.
I get what Amanda means about epilogues too because usually they’re setting things up for a sequel with another character or showing us a life in the couple x number of years or months later, but I already trust that they’re situated and happy so it’s not really needed.
And if it’s giving me a glimpse into another book, and that book isn’t out yet, I get real mad.
Amanda: I feel like epilogues are unnecessary. If the epilogue events were SO IMPORTANT they should have been included in the overall text. It just feels like a “oh, btw, here’s a baby or whatever.” It’s like a weird qualifier too because it often fast forwards a few years. Like, Oh hey, they made it and they’re doing great! When I believe a real HEA shouldn’t need to be couched by an epilogue as added security.
Sarah: That’s a good point. When does the epilogue add material that is either superfluous (in which case why is it there) or important (in which case, why isn’t it in the book proper?) The epilogue baby can be especially irritating.
With epigraphs, the tease often works very well on my reader brain. When I listened to A Useful Woman, the first in the Rosalind Thorne series, the epigraphs were all taken from research sources about that time period, and were extremely gossipy. I loved them as much as I loved the story itself.
Not only did I learn a ton about the culture of exclusion and social expectation surrounding Almack’s, but the portions of the texts excerpted were so salacious, like Regency shit talking about people. (I also interviewed the author, Darci Wilde, about those historical sources in Episode 306. Historical Gossip and Useful Women: An Interview with Darcie Wilde.)
I recently started a mystery series, and the epigraphs at the start of each chapter caught my eye immediately. Quotes I won’t usually get that excited over. But portions of letters, nonfiction, research texts, or descriptions I find I really enjoy, almost like the people who lived in that era are whispering to the present day reader.
And now, of course, I have to reconsider my thoughts on epilogues. I read a book that’s coming out in late May (The Flatshare by Beth O’Leary) that had an epilogue that made sense.
It jumped the timeline of the book two years into the future, which worked because the pace of the rest of the book was week by week, or month by month. I wouldn’t have believed in the happiness and completion of the characters if the epilogue scenes had happened at the end of the rest of the novel’s timeline. The use of the epilogue to me implied the time invested and the work that had remained to reach that HEA, because it was somewhat separate from the events of the novel, and not necessary to believing in the partnership of the characters. It’s like a bonus at the end of the story, and I liked it.
CarrieS: Epilogues – sometimes they are great, sometimes not. I dislike them when they basically show that everyone had babies biologically and are happy and fulfilled with the babies. There are more ways to be happy and fulfilled. I love babies, but an epilogue with a baby should either depict it in the nursery (depending on the time period) with a professional caregiver (it was the norm in the upper classes for much of history to spend very little time with children) or with the parents falling over in exhaustion, not perfectly dressed and ready to bone.
Sometimes there’s an afterword that addresses the parts of a story that are inspired by history and sometimes I like those more than the actual book!
Epigraphs – I like them. They add to the story. They are little hints as to meaning. Chapter epigraphs can also be hilarious, too.
What about you? Do you notice epigraphs? Do epilogues make you rage? What are some of your favorite examples of either?
I generally hate epilogues, because they are almost always Babies Ever After. I particularly hate the Magic Babies Ever After epilogue, where a heroine or hero that was, during the body of the book, portrayed as unable to have biological children (such as due to age) ends up having them. It so strongly sends the message that the HEA isn’t completely without a biological child. I’m 38 and still hoping to find love and definitely struggling with all the people who are sure that I can still easily have a baby because lots of famous people are having kids at 40+ (hi, do you think I have Hollywood-actor levels of money for IVF? I don’t!).
I also hate the “heroine in labor” epilogue. It’s a formula: the heroine is laboring and it’s sooooooo scary for the hero and then they bring out the baby and OMG HIS HEART, IT MELTS!!!! Why so many authors feel like that adds value, I don’t know.
I have no interest in Epilogues especially baby epilogues for all the reasons stated by cbackson above and more. Blech.
I also skip Prologues. I have never yet found a Prologue that was actually critical to the story. Actually, as the cost of books soars and my time has become more and more precious to me, I have also picked up books as potential purchases and put them back on the shelf as a no-go immediately on seeing a Prologue exists. It’s one of those things that signals immature writing to me.
Epigraphs can be interesting or add to the story but they can also be just noise. You can tell pretty quickly which type you are dealing with and can choose to read them or not within a couple of chapters.
Babies Ever After epilogues annoy me to no end. I want to be a father, but I want to adopt, rather than having biological children. I wish adoption was talked about more in romance–but at the same time, I’ve read too many m/m books where the heroes end up with a baby or child in their lives, and they haven’t even discussed having kids. I hate the implication that you need to have children to be happy in a relationship.
@Varian: I’m in a Bible study with a guy who has been working with his husband for over a year on their journey to parenthood. It’s taken an enormous amount of time, money, effort, and emotional energy along the way, and they’re still probably a year away from becoming parents – at the shortest. I only read m/m occasionally, but it seems so odd to just have a baby magically appear, particularly when you have the opportunity to portray the investment that it takes for many m/m couples to become parents. That seems like such an emotionally rich story to me.
I like quotes at the beginning of chapters if they’re clever or illuminating in some way. Not romance, but the fake literary quotes used in The Eyre Affair by Jasper Fforde are funny.
I generally dislike epigraphs because they interfere with immersion. When I get to the end of a chapter with eagerness to find out what happens next, turning the page and hitting a speed bump is wretched, especially if it’s just there to be twee. If it’s not crucial to the plot, don’t waste my time.
Also not a fan of epilogues. If the story proper hasn’t shown me they live happily ever after, telling me as an afterthought won’t convince me. And if I am convinced they’re going to live happily ever after, I have my own idea what that looks like, which the epilogue ruins. I can’t think of a single occasion in which an epilogue improved anything. They’re like guests who’ve overstayed their welcome to the point I wish they never visited.
Here comes the exception: me!
I like epilogues.
I like to know that they made it, babies or not. Also, babies are cute.
Relationships are hard, and it warms my heart to know that some couples make it at least for a couple of years. What I would love even more – and I think I only read that once, in an Eloisa James – is an epilogue 20 years later. Now THAT’s an accomplishment.
Baby-wise, just as these love stories are for the most part unrealistic and show us idealized men and relationships, I have no problem reading about unrealistic babies. I didn’t have help when I raised mine, but I like to imagine that had I had the resources for a nurse and a couple of maids and a cook and other staff, I would have enjoyed motherhood a lot more. There’s a world of difference in my mood if I had an 8-hour sleep the night before, so I can imagine that these ladies and duchesses are happy simply because they sleep through the night while the nurse takes care of the crying baby, then the maids change the nappies, etc.
So yes, I love to suspend my disbelief and embrace carefree motherhood in epilogues.
Epilogues with babies are a HUGE irritant for me. Almost as much as the “Mrs. Hero’s-last-name” name dropping.
I should note here that (a) I am happily kid-free, and (b) I kept my own gorram name. So all these signifiers of “see the happily-ever-after couple!” just irritate me. Either occasionally – just occasionally! it doesn’t have to been every time, or the majority of the time! – acknowledge that happily-ever-after looks different for different people, & sometimes we’d like to see our own version reflected in our fiction.
Epilogues should aspire to the “oh some good shit is coming” level of the post-credits scenes in Marvel movies or they should be skipped.
Oh man. I love epigraphs, epilogues, dedications, acknowledgments , etc! Give them all to meeee! 😉
I feel like reading the dedications and acknowledgments are like staying to watch the credits after a movie. No one gives a book or a movie to the public in a vacuum.
The best us of an epigraph and epilogue ever happened in the same book- Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows. Reading the quote from Aeschylus at the beginning was like a punch in the gut and it set the tone for the whole book. I had a solid five minute sob fest and the book hadn’t even truly started yet!
I know many people hated the DH epilogue, but I loved it, especially the final line “And all was well.”
I don’t have strong opinions on epilogues but don’t mind spending a little extra time in a HEA.
Epigraphs now – I will almost always skip these, sorry authors. Best exception is GETAWAY GIRL by Tessa Bailey, where the epigraphs are HILARIOUS (tabloid headlines or joke tweets about the hero’s butt) but also are relevant because they show how the outside world is viewing the events (the hero is a local politician whose bride [loveless society marriage] left him at the altar and he’s now avoiding the spotlight rooming with the heroine, so their pov is limited but the opinions of the outside world are pretty relevant to their relationship)
Recently listening to Lethal White audiobook meant I noticed the epigraphs so much more, where I might have normally skipped them. I’m on the fence about epigraphs.
I usually enjoy epilogues, but fully hear the baby epilogue comments above, and I personally loved The Hating Game epilogue at the end of 99% Mine so much I photocopied the pages since I’ll be returning the library book.
This may explain why I’m so baffled when people recommend Elizabeth Hoyt. They’re skipping epigraphs. I find they destroy the pacing and are even more telegraphed than the rest of the writing. But at least I know what she means by them. JKR was killing me with all the Ibsen in the latest Strike book, and the Blue Oyster Cult lyrics in that previous one… so unnecessary. And lazy. Music is personal, it’s unwise to rely on it to establish a shorthand to the mood/signifiers it establishes for you, and expect your audience to share your taste.
It varies hugely. Sometimes an epigraph is useful – I often like it in the beginning of a book – but if you’re going to have one for every chapter, it better add a hell of a lot.
I have rarely found a prologue or epilogue to add anything to a novel.
I am incapable of skipping any of these. I try to avoid acknowledgements the most – people I don’t know, gloating over their mutual congratulations, guised as humble thanksgiving, it’s so patently private and not for me – but if it’s part of the book, I just can’t not see it.
Love epigraphs ever since Mary Stewart! Same with Chapter Titles. Little clues. If I get in an all-fired hurry (and why should I but I do) I may skip them, but I’ll go back to them later. Epilogues are more of a fashion statement. Expected now. I noticed LOTS of the reviews for Devil’s Daughter, the new Kleypas book, slated it for skipping the epilogue, even though the book was clearly over. My child-free self doesn’t mind the babies so much as the rather false “oh aren’t we smugly happy in our domestic bliss” that can seem to cheapen a hard-won HEA. But if it adds or serves as a coda I don’t care. Never crossed my mind it was something to get exercised over!
I generally like epilogues, they are a couple more pages to spend with people I have grown to know and like. Especially in romantic suspense or thriller, they give a glimpse of the relationship without the stress of the world ending. With some books, things happen in the epilogues that are important wrap ups of the non-primary story lines.
That said, there is one author who I specifically don’t read the epilogue until her next book is in hand. The epilogue is really the first scene of her next book and nothing to do with the characters of the present one.
Epigraphs are awesome. I tend to skip the long poems (I want to read the book) but short and sweet just add to the ambiance. My favorites – from Robert Asprin’s Myth series. Who can forget, “One of the joys of travel is visiting new towns and meeting new people.” – G. Khan
I *love* epigraphs. One of the best things about writing an epic fantasy series is that I can include epigraphs at the front of each book that tie into the story.
I also *love* drop cap letters, scene break glyphs, fancy fonts, and other text formatting items. And every fantasy book should have a world map, IMO. I think all these things add another layer of artistry to the book and are something extra for readers to enjoy.
As for epilogues, I can take them or leave them. Like EJ said, the goal should be to give the reader something fun and extra, like in the Marvel movies.
Mostly epilogues are “meh”, but there’s one mystery with a side of romance that has always disappointed me. I like the whole book, it’s has a great mystery, with an actually decent romance, -BUT- at the end, it just… stops. IT NEEDS ONE MORE CHAPTER!! Or at least an epilogue. The main character has solved the mystery, escaped with his life, saved a friend, and managed to fly the plane with no instruments. But we don’t know whether his girlfriend is ok. Did she survive? Is she going to be able to handle the results of the criminal mastermind’s evil plans?? Is she going to be able to stay with the main character???
Yeah, this one needs a bit more.
Epigraphs: if they compliment the text, I love them. (Mary Stewart rocks the epigraph #opinions) If they are there because the author thinks that they need to be there to make the book look “literary,” then the book is better off without them.
Epilogues: if I really love the characters, I like getting a glimpse into their lives at some point in the future. I do not like Babies Ever After epilogues for all the reasons noted above; and if the epilogue is critical for the plot, then it should be included in the text rather than tacked on at the end.
I do read dedications and every word of the acknowledgements. I love speculating and imagining who all these people might be (and in a book I read recently, I actually know one of the people named in the acknowledgements).
I treat additional matter like epigraphs and epilogues as part of the book–sometimes they add to the whole, sometimes they detract, and sometimes they are bleh and do neither. Best epigraphs ever are those in Watership Down, especially the “Hard pounding this, gentlemen” quote from Wellington!
I am so very done with the Babies Ever After epilogues. There are a few times it works for me. The epilogues of Lisa Kleypas’ “Seduce Me at Sunrise” and “Married in the Morning” both worked for me because the desire (or need) for children was worked into the existing plot. There were proper time leaps for each, which I feel like makes an epilogue pretty solid. Both of these wouldn’t work in the main body of the story as written.
But I have a huge beef with Julia Quinn’s “second epilogues” that she released for the Bridgerton series, especially the one for “When He Was Wicked.” The majority of this novella deals with Francesca and Michael’s infertility, which was lovingly done. They were going through the grieving process and starting to accept that life was going in a different direction. The scene between Francesca and her mother dealing with Francesca’s pain made me cry because it reminds me so much of me and my mom. I loved it until … MAGICAL BABY HAPPENS.
Seriously, they have sex at a particular angle and poof, magic baby. It not only ruined this story completely for me, but nearly the entire series. It is a huge slap in the face to couples dealing with infertility. I would have loved to see the Bridgertons grow their already large family via adoption, but no, we must have a magic baby because all the Bridgertons must be proven to be fertile. It’s like Oprah. “You get a baby, and YOU GET A BABY, and YOU get a baby.” I am tired of infertile or childless couples in Regency stories being seen as lesser people to be pitied.
Yes, this is the hill I’m going to die on.
I find Elizabeth Hoyt’s “fairy tales” annoying and stopped reading her books because of them. I did read her latest based on your interview with her but I found the book annoying. I don’t mind epilogues but really enjoy when an author explains a historical context.
As with all things, it depends…are the epigraphs/epilogues relevant to the story; do they distract from, or enhance my reading experience? Who is the author? etc, for some do it better than others. I do, however, dislike long pg-count prologues; I’m an “impatient” reader, and sometimes I just want to get to the main meal/meat and bones of the story, without having to read pages and pages of backstory. I agree, though, that most baby and “magic baby” epilogue needs to disappear.
As for dedications….Jennifer in GA says, “I feel like reading the dedications and acknowledgments are like staying to watch the credits after a movie. No one gives a book or a movie to the public in a vacuum.” I wholeheartedly agree, although not having acknowledgments/dedications is not a reason why I would read, or not read, a book. Sometimes, it makes that book you loved extra special.
I don’t really have an opinion on epilogues in general. Sometimes they add something, sometimes they don’t. I can’t say I remember an epilogue in a romance that didn’t seem pointless, but I don’t remember running into that many. (I’m guessing I’m forgetting several.)
For epigraphs, I usually read the first one. If it only seems to be there because the author thought it looked neat, I don’t bother reading the rest.
Mary Stewart was the master in using epigraphs at the start of each chapter.
Best epigraph quote ever, from Maggie Stiefvater’s The Dream Thieves:
“I loathe people who keep dogs, for they are cowards who don’t have the guts to bite people themselves.” August Strindberg
And whether it’s an epilogue or not, I want an ending that ENDS when the story has been brought to a satisfying conclusion, rather than giving me what amounts to a curtain call. I find that, especially in the case of romances that happen over a very short time frame, an epilogue that shows the couple functioning in the real world helps me believe in their HEA. But they are most effective when the author leaves a few threads to tie up (subplots, character arcs, etc., not just set-up for a next book or “Oooh look, here are all my friends from all the books to admire my pretty baby”). This is especially true if those threads require that some time passes for a realistic resolution. Trying to cram all of that into a final chapter can also bog down the BIG CLIMAX. So please yes, give me an epilogue when it actually does important storytelling work.
I’m kind of meh about epilogues (put it in the text, authors!) but I make a huge exception for Lois Bujold McMaster. At least two of her epilogues in the Vorkosigan books are essentially independent short stories, and they were both really memorable.
I’m with Jennifer and Diana – I love them all! Although I have to say I’m sometimes flummoxed by (and sometimes a wee exhausted by) Elizabeth Hoyt’s fairy tale epigraphs – I often feel there like I’m missing something I should understand. But in general I appreciate it all. An author puts in what she/he feels is important. We the readers can take or leave whatever we want. My husband and I had a HEA the day we married, but it took surviving the children that eventually followed that proved that love to be a true ever-after (fingers crossed – it’s only been 30+ years)!
I love them both. I find epigraphs can be very clever and I appreciate an author’s thinking ability to make them so. When I love a book, I want more. And, to me, an epilogue is more. However, I am not a fan of epilogues that have the primary purpose of setting up the next book.
I read it all from preface to acknowledgements. Whether that was time well spent varies from book to book.
Prologues and epilogues are fine, I read them as the first and last chapters. Epigraphs, on the other hand, are terribly distracting, especially in audio books. If it is important to the story, then put it in the story. Thanks for giving me the name (epigraphs) so that I may curse them properly.
I don’t mind epilogues, or baby epilogues, or even Francesca and Michael’s baby in the Bridgerton second epilogue (it was clear in When He Was Wicked that she was might be able to become pregnant). I also like epilogues in which the main characters are happy without children, like Bryony and Leo in Not Quite A Husband.
What I can’t stand is the random sex scene epilogue. I’m in the “sex scenes should serve a purpose” camp. I’m fine with scenes that advance the plot, reveal something about the characters, affect their relationship – but a sex scene in the epilogue does none of those things, so it just feels gratuitous.
Oh, and The Sufragette Scandal epilogue should have had Free voting, and nobody will ever convince me otherwise.
The best epilogue I’ve ever read – the one that sticks in my head and will make me defend the whole principle of epilogues – comes at the end of A.S. Byatt’s Possession, where “two people met, on a hot May day, and never later mentioned their meeting.” These are the kind of secrets which historians and scholars will never unearth, however meticulous they are; Ash, meeting Maia Thomasine, who forgets his message entirely. But the message was given, all the same.
(This may also be the only secret baby epilogue I’ve really enjoyed too.)
I am a devoted Elizabeth Hoyt fangirl and I never read her epigraphs. I tried for a while but I wasn’t getting the point so now I just skip them.
I don’t mind baby epilogues. In fact, I like them if it feels natural for that couple to get kids. But if they were against having kids before, please keep the characters consistent.
As for Quinn’s Fransesca, she was pregnant for her first husband but miscarried so pregnancy wasn’t completely impossible. Having gotten my kids with ivf, I felt like the ending was hopeful. I can understand why someone with different experiences or no wish for kids would feel cheated.
My favourite epigraphs are Seanan Mcguire’s InCryptid family members’ sage advice and Darynda Jones’ funny t-shirt quotes.
I’m usually okay with both epilogues and prologues, although I’ve only read one prologue that I thought was necessary to the book’s plot. In Come Sundown by Nora Roberts, the prologue set up the book by showing what happened to one of the characters 20 years before the book took place. I didn’t care for the book as a whole, but appreciated the prologue.
As for epilogues, I generally don’t mind them so lobng as they’re not baby-logues. Babies do not necessarily equal HEA. This type of epilogue should only be included if the characters were trying to get pregnant or adopt throughout the book. Even in that situation, I’d prefer an epilogue where the characters never had the baby and realized that they loved each other enough that having a baby didn’t matter. I re-read an historical over the holidays in which the heroine believed she couldn’t have children because she had a really bad miscarriage during her first marriage. The hero told her that he didn’t care if she couldn’t have children and that the dukedom could go to his cousin’s kids after he died—he’d be dead and not exactly caring about the title. Then, in the epilogue they magically had a baby. I felt that this took away from the earlier scene because it indicated that they couldn’t have their HEA without a kid.
The thing that tends to bug me are Chapter Titles. A lot of times they spoil what happens within the chapter. When I first read the Harry Potter series, I tried to ignore the chapter titles because I didn’t want any spoilers. The exception to this is anything written by Jill Shalvis. Her chapter titles tend to be cute and less spoilery than others. #LobsterLove was one of my favorites.
I generally skip epigraphs. They just keep me from reading the story. Recently started reading Elizabeth Hoyt, and I read hers because I wasn’t sure if they might matter. It seems clear they don’t so I will start skipping them. If I remember right, Dorothy Sayers was big on epigraphs and hers always annoyed me in the same way I was annoyed by random Latin phrases in her dialogue. We don’t all speak dead languages; at least give me context clues. Mostly, they don’t bother me because they’re easy to ignore. Epilogues don’t irritate me much because, again, easy to skip if it looks pointless, and it’s at the end so it doesn’t impede my progress in the story.
Prologues, on the other hand…I am with @Hope there. Have been in bookstores and not bought stuff by an unfamiliar author when I opened it to find a 10 page prologue. If they can’t start at the beginning on page one, I don’t really trust them to know what they’re doing for the rest of the book. If the prologue is one page and describes the murder that starts a mystery, fine, that’s clearly relevant. If it’s 30 pages and set 10 years in the past describing backstory they plan to info dump later anyway, it is a massive waste of my time.
Epilogues only work for me when it subverts the stereotype and gives me a non-traditional HEA. I think the one that stands out the most for me as the most satisfying is Jenifer Cruise’s Bet Me. It tied into the main story by showing Min’s and the other characters If Dinners later came true. It also didn’t include marriage and a baby BUT…I think a lot of it has to do with personal taste. Cue the Satisfying Good Book SighTM.
I agree that epilogues in romance novels are generally “and then they got married and had babies!” but I still like them. But in other books, epilogues can really turn the story around. I just finished The Paragon Hotel by Lyndsay Faye and the epilogue had me in tears it was just so beautiful. There was setup for it by having a sort of first-person introduction where the main character Nobody shares that she’s writing the book for someone. So the epilogue makes it clear who she was writing it for. The Paragon Hotel also uses epitaphs really well too, mostly quoting laws and newspaper articles highlighting the way black people were viewed at the time in real life. I think it helps the narrative because Faye doesn’t have to spend as much time explaining the laws and general sentiment of the time because the epitaphs are doing that heavy lifting for her.
Overall, I think there just isn’t a good way for authors to do a convincing time jump at the end without an epilogue. And for romances, a lot of readers are looking for the definitive HEA of marriage and babies for it to be a true HEA. I don’t mind a HFN ending, but still I always read the epilogue.
@Diana – Hate Notes has a 20 year later epilogue! I think it’s one of the few times I really felt an epilogue added something substantial to a novel. Usually I find them unnecessary.
I occasionally like epigraphs, like the gossip quotes in the Bridgerton books, but quotes from great literature rarely work for me. It seems overly grandiose to start a mystery or romance with Shakespeare or Milton.
Love epilogues in romance! I have to say, though, the wedding and baby ones aren’t my favorite. I like to see what the couple looks like in the future, though. And I love when an author puts a glimpse of the previous couple in the next book. It gives me a look at them from another point of view. A little bonus.
Epigraphs I can take or leave. If they’re there and I don’t like them but the rest of the story is good, I just skip them. They don’t make or break a book for me. Prologues can be great in terms of setting up the story or they can drag it down. IMO, the key is to keep it short.