I recently discovered three advice email messages in the spam folder – which I feel really shitty about and I apologize. This letter came in mid-August, and while it’s been almost 2 months since it was sent, I wanted to answer it and discuss here because the romance/porn accusation is unfortunately perennial. That said, I don’t know if this person is still in this relationship and I don’t have an update.
Dear Smart Bitch Sarah:
I have a general question for anyone who also loves romance that may be willing to help me untangle a sticky situation in my current relationship. I’ve loved romance novels since I was in my early teens, and they have become a pretty big part of my life since then. Unfortunately, I’m in a bit of a pickle with my boyfriend over the fact that I read them.
You see, he has admitted that at one point he was addicted to pornography, but literally threw all of his stuff away when we decided to move in together. I respect this decision on so many levels, and I’m very appreciative since I’ve had relationships where porn really became an issue, BUT, my otherwise amazing and wonderful boyfriend asked me a few days ago what the difference was between porn and my romance collection.
His argument seemed sound, citing that the sex is graphic and since women have a more emotional relation to sex than men sometimes, romance novels are essentially porn for women. I’d never really thought of it that way, though yes, there certainly have been some books I’ve read that have made me tingly in all the right places. Of course telling him that I don’t read the books for the sex would be like saying that I don’t look at Playboy for the pictures, but rather the articles. I appreciate the sex, even if it isn’t necessarily my main reason for buying the book. In fact, some of my favorite romance novels may have only one or two sex scenes in the whole 400 pages,
but certainly in the genre that isn’t completely normal, and it’s not like I can promise never to read a sex scene in a novel that has a half naked man on the cover (another item he puts on his list of why romance is like porn).
It’s obvious to me that he really wants me to stop reading them and possibly even get rid of the ones that I have, and I’m completely torn as to what to do. I LOVE my romance novels and they have been a constant companion during so many good and horrible times in my life. However, I don’t know how to explain it to my boyfriend that his sacrifice of something he loved (porn) is different than his asking me to get rid of my romance novels. I also don’t know how to argue that my novels really aren’t some specialized form of porn when they do have such graphic sex scenes in them…I put a temporary patch on the problem, explaining that my romance novels were kind of like watching a television show on HBO or Showtime. They have some pretty intense love scenes, but that isn’t the only reason you watch the show…
This is such a specialized argument that we are having that I just HAD to submit it here and see what everyone had to say. Surely some other readers have had this problem? Or have some advice on how to handle it?
Signed,
Conflicted
Dear Conflicted:
Before addressing your attempts to change his perception of the genre, I want to address his behavior. By asking that you get rid of something that is clearly very important and meaningful to you, he is attempting to limit your behavior based on his own limitations, and that is not fair or respectful of you. His decision to get rid of his pornography collection may have been, and I am presuming here, because his desire was becoming an addiction to porn, and it was causing him harm. Your romance novels do not function in the same way: you said yourself, they do not cause you harm but help you through difficult emotional times.
But in what way is your reading romance novels offensive to him? In other words, how is what you read bothersome to him? Just because he is your boyfriend does not give him the right to tell you what you can and cannot read. Moreover, his pornography problem is his problem, not yours. Is your romance collection somehow attractive to him and he feels uncomfortable with his desire to read one?
Obviously, he is incorrect about the genre. Romances are not pornography. Granted, the half-naked dudes on the covers do not help this argument, but you yourself explained the best possible defining difference: not every romance has sex scenes, and romances are not just about the coming together of fiddly bits which then come together. In fact, your explanation was stellar, that some romances are like HBO or Showtime television series, where the love scenes are intense thanks to the wild freedom of cable, but those scenes are not the reason you’re tuning in. The point is, the emotional courtship is always present in a romance; the sex is not. Reading a romance is not merely about sexual gratification and arousal, and therefore romances are not porn. Anyone who picks up Georgette Heyer looking for Jenna Jameson is going to be woefully and comically disappointed.
What troubles me most about your letter is that your boyfriend, whom one would assume loves you, is asking you to give up something you love because he is not comfortable with it for his own personal reasons. He is attempting to assert control over you and your decisions, and dictate your behavior. I can’t even fully express how many OHSHIT sirens that sets off in my brain. That is the issue that needs to be addressed, and not necessarily by giving your paperbacks the heave-ho just to appease him. Whatever his reasons for getting rid of his porn collection may have been, they do not give him the right to control what you read. If he looks at romance and sees nothing but the sexuality of the cover and the cover copy that might promise titillation, he needs to read a few to form a more educated opinion. But if he looks at your romance novels as a barrier to his own comfort and demands that you stop reading them and get rid of them all so he feels better about himself, then you and he have a serious conversation ahead of you.
It sounds to me that he considers himself to have a pornography addiction, much like a person addicted to gambling. There are support groups for these problems, and while I am not an expert on sexual or gambling addiction, I do think his demand of you indicates a possible need for more direct help. If the presence of romance novels makes him uncomfortable because he thinks they are pornographic and he wants you to get rid of them, despite knowing how important they are to you personally, then the problem is not with the books, but with him, and his respect and understanding of you.
Controlling behavior is not healthy nor loving. That cornerstone of romance, that the hero love the heroine for who she is without demanding she change who she is, applies absolutely in real life, and absolutely without a doubt applies to you.
ETA: I have an update from Conflicted via email:
“Wow…I can’t believe in such a short amount of time, such a heated and exhaustive conversation has come from my email.
First, Thank you to everyone who has given an opinion, I like to think I’m open minded, and I like to get multiple points of view.
Second, I haven’t had a chance to read every entry on here, but I did want to address some specific concerns that people were having:
1. My boyfriend got rid of his collection independent of my desire or concern. In fact, it was something that he was working on removing from his life before we even got together. Did I appreciate the decision? Absolutely. Did I ask him to do anything with his porn? No. He has told me that at one point he would spend more than 12 hours with his porn a day, which I agree really does qualify as an addiction. I know that this is probably a battle that will continue throughout our relationship, but I do love him and respect him enough to work through these issues with him. As for porn itself, I don’t really have a problem with anyone having or using porn in a way that is satisfying to themselves and respectful to their partner. In my previous relationships where porn had become a problem, it wasn’t the porn itself, but the blatant and vocal comparison of my attributes to the women in the porn that became an issue. This isn’t the situation in my current relationship, and I can’t say that I know where everything would have landed if he hadn’t been getting rid of his porn already, but I do know that I have watched porn at times in my life, and don’t begrudge anyone who wants to use it. It is entirely the intensity of his addiction and my respect for him as a partner that has made it become such a pivotal topic of concern in our relationship.
2. Control. While it seems that some responders took my comment that my boyfriend is otherwise amazing as an excuse to ignore controlling behaviors, I would like to clarify. He hasn’t ever asked me to get rid of my books, merely asked me what the difference was between porn and my romances. This in turn gave me the impression that he was uncomfortable and probably would respect my getting rid of my collection. It is a matter of mutual respect, not control that urged me to submit my question here. I will be the first to admit that our relationship has ups and downs, we have had a couple really big fights since my email, but he is very respectful of my feelings, and is the first to admit when he is wrong. I have been in several controlling and unhealthy relationships, which is why I simply have to clarify that he is the first partner I’ve had that I felt actually respected my feelings and needs.
Now, that said, the issue has been moot since I sent my first email as I have not had time to read, but I have not gotten rid of my collection, and am hopeful that as our relationship has strengthened, he will feel more comfortable talking about it if he has problems, and that I will feel more assertive to explain my position. I think what really bothered me when he first brought it up was the fact that I really didn’t have a good grasp on how to respond. I struggled to find the words to explain the difference between porn and romance, but with all of these responses, surely I will be better equipped to be eloquent in my answers.
I am definitely going to continue to read the responses here, and I would be happy to answer any other questions that arise.
Respectfully and Gratefully,
Conflicted
PS: I do have a Nook, and don’t intend on buying the explicitly covered paperbacks either way, just as a sign of courtesy. Not hiding them for sure, just not flashing half naked men his way every two minutes. And, he seemed mildly satisfied with my comparison of romances to HBO. I do hope that if he were to bring it up again, I could ask him to read one of my novels and also use some of the advice I’ve received here.”
It doesn’t sound like she had a problem with his porn and asked him to give it up. He did that on his own thinking. Which makes me suspect that he is a “score-keeper” sort of fellow and I don’t think that’s a good thing.
And I am totally with meoskop in that if someone asks you to give up something that’s not hurting anyone, it’s a bad sign. Romance isn’t porn, and I just don’t think that it’s remotely comparable to keeping booze around in the house when you live with an alcoholic at all.
In short: I smell a rat. At the very least, I hope the letter writer politely told him no and he dealt with it.
@Phil, that’s exactly the impression I got.
Phil and a few others said what I immediately thought of when I read the Original Poster’s letter: he’s probably not addicted and she’s possibly being unreasonable.
Defining porn is all about how you use it. A picture of a half-nude man isn’t porn if it’s an underwear ad and you’re a shopper. It is if it’s an underwear ad and you masturbate to it. If you turn to a particular scene in a book in order to put you in the mood for sex or a romantic evening, then you just used porn.
If the Original Poster wants to keep her arrangement, she should argue that she doesn’t read her books for 5-10 minutes before putting them aside. Can her boyfriend look her in the eye and say that he often enjoys watching an entire porn video and then immediately falling sleep?
I’d prefer if she got over her porn-apprehension, though. Not all porn is anti-woman and using porn or masturbating alone isn’t telling your partner they don’t turn you on. Perhaps she could start by reading her favorite scenes from her romance books to her boyfriend? And he could find erotica or the kind of porn film that has stories to share with her?
Captcha word: length78. Oh my.
What, exactly, is his objection to you reading romance novels? Is it just the sex or does he feel you’re neglecting him/life things in favor of immersing yourself in books? Your comments “I’ve loved romance novels since I was in my early teens, and they have become a pretty big part of my life since then.” and “they have been a constant companion during so many good and horrible times in my life” prompts me to ask.
Ah, recovering from addiction is not giving up something you love. It’s about making healthier choices and developing coping skills for dealing with a disease. Big, big, big difference.
I think there are some knee-jerk-esque reactions here to just dump your guy which is unfair to him and you since you seem conflicted about what the issue really is. Hang in there and keep an open dialogue with your guy about romance novels and your reading habits and his issues with addiction.
I have skimmed through the comments, and hope I’m not whipping a dead horse here, but I want to talk about the “porn vs romance” thing.
I think that a lot of romance is *also* porn. I know a lot of feathers will get ruffled when I type that, but IMO it’s true. Many romances these days have an obligatory very explicit sex scene within the first 50 pages, and several others throughout the book. Yes, the book also delves into character and romance, but the porographic element is definitely there. I think it’s disingenuous to pretend that we are not sometimes aroused and titillated by those scenes and use them to liven up our own sex lives. If we didn’t like reading them, they would not have become so much a part of the definition of a romance novel. In many of these sex scenes, the sex descriptions in themselves do not necessarily advance the plot more than “OMG he’s so hung he’s so hot and he gives me orgasms!”. In most instances they are not necessary for plot development (unless she finds out in the sex scene that he has two dicks and that’s why he’s got bonding issues or something)
Somehow it seems to be that we want to make it shameful that we enjoy the sex scenes in romances. We don’t want to label it porn because porn is BAD. Romance is lovely and sweet and has flowers floating on the breeze and little birds chirping. Porn is dirty and sleazy and exploitative and gross.
As a mostly female readership, we need to just get over it. So it’s porn. So what? Read it, enjoy it, use it, move on to the next.
I keep hoping the original poster will chime in her anonymously and clarify the situation. Right now, there are too many unknowns for me to have an informed opinion.
gads, that sounded stuffy. I meant to say, enough people here have raised enough questions about just what was going on that I don’t know what to think about it.
I do have to admit that, to this post-menopausal woman, a lot of the sex scenes in books I read seem extraneous and I mostly skip over them, unless they serve to move the plot or relationship along.
Regarding the “giving up a pet” debate, I think there’s a difference between giving up a hypothetical pet (i.e. not getting one in the first place because partner is allergic), and giving up a real pet, and that putting the pet to sleep needlessly is worse still.
My boyfriend likes cats; I’m allergic. He does not currently own a cat; his last cat passed away several years before we met. As we’re looking at moving in together, he is not looking into getting a cat because he knows it would make me ill.
He also likes dogs, and unlike cats, he actually has one. Now, I have no issues with the dog—I have one myself—but if I were allergic to dogs too, then we would have an issue to discuss before moving in together. Would I investigate treatment options? Would he give the dog away to a friend? Would we continue to live separately? Personally, I would never demand that a partner give up an already-existing pet for me.
As for putting a pet to sleep for no reason, if I demanded that, I’d like to hope my boyfriend would kick me deservedly to the curb.
I think people are using varying definitions of pornography here, and this is scarcely surprising, since the word has changed its meaning many times even during the last few decades, as explicitly sexual content has become more acceptable in mainstream writing. The word has, however, retained broadly pejorative connotations. Any graphic sex in a text was regarded as ‘pornographic’ 60 years ago, and was, moreover, illegal.
Robinjn, above, is using the term to mean anything at all that, in practice, may trigger lust in some of those who see/read it. I think that is far too wide and sweeping a definition, and also has the disadvantage of making pornography a shifting and indefinable entity, varying according to the personal tastes of the reader/viewer and even his or her individual state of mind at a given moment. It would mean that many things that would not usually be classed even as sexual, let alone pornographic, would become so if some people occasionally got seriously turned on by them. Frankly, if the definition depends not on the qualities of the thing defined, but on the responses of anyone and everyone who observes it, it is useless. To say that ‘x’ is pornographic if it makes you want to masturbate, and the same ‘x’ is not pornographic if it doesn’t totally undermines the usefulness of language in achieving communication.
A more practical definition, based on the ‘writings about whores’ etymology, is that which confines the term to texts that are written specifically and solely to arouse sexual desire in at least most of those who encounter them, and that pay little or no attention to the other widely accepted principles of storytelling, such as having a plot and interesting characters.
To me, a pornographic book is one that consists entirely of sexual conjugations, one after the other, without any serious story or character development. Whether it arouses lust still depends to some degree on the reader’s mood and also on how well-written it is, but the intent of the writer is purely to achieve that end.
Erotic novels are those that follow the usual principles of storytelling, in that they have plots and well-drawn characters, etc., but the sexual relationship(s) form a major element of the story (eros is sexual love: not to do with whores, but with relationships). This is where I think many modern romances fit. To me, that is not pornography. And then there are novels—about all sorts of subjects—in which, when a sexual encounter happens to occur in the normal course of events, will have it described rather than glossed over; but the sex is not the raison d’être of the book.
You may all disagree with these definitions, but I find that they work well in practice, and can be applied to books of all eras, both during and outside periods of legal censorship. For example, Cleland’s Fanny Hill is an erotic romance, complete with HEA: Apuleius’s The Golden Ass is a novel about a personal (religious) journey, that happens to feature some graphic sex. Both were classed as pornography in the 19th century, and there is absolutely no doubt that scenes in both could be used to arouse sexual excitement, but to me, neither is, or ever was, pornographic.
Amazing comments—sorry I didn’t have time to read all of them and apologies if what I’m saying has already been noted, but as to the difference between porn and romance novels: Porn is about the objectification of an individual, until that individual really does not exist except as something to satisfy the need of the objectifier. Romance novels (regardless of how explicit the sex—and the boyfriend here is wrong, not all romance novels have explicit sex and not all romance readers want explicit sex—see the request for “Fade to Black” romances from a few days ago) are mostly about celebrations of the individual woman and the individual man who are drawn to each other in sexual and other ways.
Incidently, boyfriend sounds like a controlling tool. Just because he had an addiction problem, doesn’t mean you have.
@Faellie “Pron which consists of pictures (moving or still) of real people is exploitative of the persons depicted and degrading of both the persons depicted and the persons seeing it. It should be avoided at all costs. Looking at it cannot be justified for any reason bar urgent necessity by the professionals controlling it (such as police working on prosecutions of the sort of stuff that involves children or unconsented violence).”
I hope you’re not American, because that statement just shits all over the 1st Amendment. It also infantilizes women by assuming adult women can’t legitimately make up their own minds as to whether or not they want to be in porn.
No one has to like watching porn, but not respecting porn actresses is nothing more than slut shaming, and that degrades women everywhere. Everyone’s body is their own, and they should be able to make their own decisions without other people clucking their disapproval.
As for the question – romances are kind of like porn, and there’s nothing wrong with that. Men need to jerk off, and women need emotional release. If there’s addiction, that’s another story, one in which porn is the MacGuffin.
Oops, it was a poster named Sue who defined pornography in the very broad way that I think is unhelpful. Sorry, Robinjn.
🙂
Wow…I can’t believe in such a short amount of time, such a heated and exhaustive conversation has come from my email.
First, Thank you to everyone who has given an opinion, I like to think I’m open minded, and I like to get multiple points of view.
Second, I haven’t had a chance to read every entry on here, but I did want to address some specific concerns that people were having:
1. My boyfriend got rid of his collection independent of my desire or concern. In fact, it was something that he was working on removing from his life before we even got together. Did I appreciate the decision? Absolutely. Did I ask him to do anything with his porn? No. He has told me that at one point he would spend more than 12 hours with his porn a day, which I agree really does qualify as an addiction. I know that this is probably a battle that will continue throughout our relationship, but I do love him and respect him enough to work through these issues with him.
2. Control. While it seems that some responders above took my comment that my boyfriend is otherwise amazing as an excuse to ignore controlling behaviors, I would like to clarify. He hasn’t ever asked me to get rid of my books, merely asked me what the difference was between porn and my romances. This in turn gave me the impression that he was uncomfortable and probably would respect my getting rid of my collection. It is a matter of mutual respect, not control that urged me to submit my question here. I will be the first to admit that our relationship has ups and downs, we have had a couple really big fights since my email, but he is very respectful of my feelings, and is the first to admit when he is wrong. I have been in several controlling and unhealthy relationships, which is why I simply have to clarify that he is the first partner I’ve had that I felt actually respected my feelings and needs.
Now, that said, the issue has been moot since I sent my first email as I have not had time to read, but I have not gotten rid of my collection, and am hopeful that as our relationship has strengthened, he will feel more comfortable talking about it if he has problems, and that I will feel more assertive to explain my position. I think what really bothered me when he first brought it up was the fact that I really didn’t have a good grasp on how to respond. I struggled to find the words to explain the difference between porn and romance, but with all of these responses, surely I will be better equipped to be eloquent in my answers.
I am definitely going to continue to read the responses here, and I would be happy to answer any other questions that arise.
Respectfully and Gratefully,
Conflicted
but I do have a Nook, and don’t intend on buying the explicitly covered paperbacks either way, just as a sign of courtesy. Not hiding them for sure, just not flashing half naked men his way every two minutes. And, while I vaguely wonder if the issue will come back up, he seemed mildly satisfied with my comparison of romances to HBO. I do hope that if he were to bring it up again, I could ask him to read one of my novels and also use some of the advice I’ve received here.
Well responded, SB Sarah. Well done.
Re: JodyW’s “If you’re not using the phrase “get off” in an orgasmic sense but in a “I Feel Happpeeee!” sense, well, I “get off” on finding bargains at the grocery store. This means reading the sales flyers and coupon pages is porny for me. I can’t help it! I get all excited and giddy and think OMG we may not have to eat FREAKIN RICE AND BEANS all week, OMG salmon’s on SALE and it’s PERFECT GRILL WEATHER!!!!”
… I roared. Hah!
There’s a lot of comments, so forgive me for reading only about half. My comment is: What if romance was exactly like porn? So what?
Men are constantly “serviced” with sexual stimuli in our Western culture. It’s everywhere. Women? Not so much. Seriously, if every romance was wall-to-wall orgies, great! I think problems come when things are unbalanced, out of whack. The more sexually stimulating stuff out there for women, the better it will be, the more balanced things will be, in my opinion.
And also, the day Johnny Depp or Orlando Bloom are on the cover of a magazine just barely dressed. Yessir. 🙂
A great, interesting thread…
This MAY piss a lot of people off, but I don’t think the guy should have had to or should have felt like he had to give up his porn NO MORE than he should be making the woman feel like she needs to give up the novels.
Men LIKE to look at naked women (and sometimes other naked men)…big deal. We are in real trouble when we have to take what is natural to us and shove it in a big fat hidden closet. We are in real trouble when we have to feel ashamed of doing something that causes no one else real harm. But, put it right up there with those who make people ashamed of masturbating, or making women ashamed of liking sex, etc.
Obviously, though, the man who gave up his porn is feeling resentful IF he is now questioning something the woman likes to do—-read romance novels. Why should her romance novel even be up for debate? Why do people feel like they need to give up healthy activities or harmless ones JUST because they are in a relationship? This is what makes a relationship miserable—-you can do this…you can’t do that. A relationship has a damn good chance to fail with that kind of crazy going on. If people need rules and restrictions to ensure that they are miserable then they need to move back in with daddy or join the military.
If the woman was obsessed with reading mystery novels, would they even be put up to question? No.
And here is another news flash from an Author to whoever else…erotica is no more porn than the movie 300, or Transporter, or most guy flicks or guy and girl flicks. If you have a story evolving two people then chances are, if it is realistic, there will be some sex. But erotica is not about the sex…its about the story, everything revolving around the people. AND, even though most fantasy, action, or sci fi novels that guys read don’t have it listed on the genre—-there is SEX. They may not have romance or erotica on the genre label, but many, many times there is sex in the book. I was informed of that when a guy accidentally picked up one of my books, then emailed me to say that when he found out it was erotica, he almost put it down BUT THEN read a little, couldn’t stop and then realized it was as good, if not better than most of the fantasy novels he reads…THAT has sex in them.
My advice to the couple, or any couple…don’t start denying yourself things that are harmless. And if the partner is doing something like looking at porn mags or reading romance novels and you get angry about it…then maybe look within because the problem has to do with you and your own insecurities…and is not really about whatever you think ticked you off.
Jesus, a story about popping latex balloons is going to be porn for someone. And happy reading to them.
Thanks Victoria!
I think we need more information. This is about so much more than whether romance is porn. I agree with those who say it’s got an emotional involvement, and I agree with those who say the sex can be very graphic. It’s both. So there. Who cares. My dollars are voting, and even if the *general public* wants to say I’m reading porn or I’m a weirdo for reading romance, I really don’t care. Obviously, since it keeps getting written, it’s being read.
My children and husband HATE when I read. They’ve gotten used to it, tho, since it’s been 15 years we’ve been together. And, I used to read mysteries. So, it’s not the genre. It’s the fact that I. Am. Not. Paying. Attention. To. Them. Plain and simple. And yes, sometimes they eat cereal for supper when I’ve got a really good book. Does that make me a bad mother? I don’t think so, but I’m pretty sure I’m not an addict. 😉 When there is football on, does my husband do anything with them? HECK no. He’s emotionally & physically unavailable to us all. And that happens a lot in the fall. So it happens to everyone.
I want more info on conflicted. There is much more to the story than the info we got!
Yes, but I thought we were talking about porn – which isn’t harmless.
No, wait. I’m not talking about the fact it gets people off. I’m talking about the fact it demeans and degrades real women (and some men). The awful impact it has on young women’s body images, and male expectations. The exploitation of the vulnerable, the reinforcement of rape culture and the involvement of criminal gangs in its production.
It’s not *harmless*. Material which arouses isn’t immoral or dangerous per se, but lets not pretend all porn is equal, or that there isn’t a real cost with pornography which involves real people, especially real women. And this is why I think eliding visual and textual porn is so stupid and useless in these discussions. There *is* a difference in impact and harm, and we need to be awake to that.
Lets hope I do the quote thing right lol.
Ok, whether or not porn demeans and degrades women is up for debate. And I don’t think porn has an awful impact on a woman’s body image or gives men any real expectations.
I mean how many have watched a porn flick? How many women have actually wished she looked like that? They are not all that and a bag of chips. lol
I would think that BARBIE does more damage than what porn does…UNLESS we are speaking about porn magazines like Playboy or Hustler.
And again, what real woman has looked at those magazines and has felt less than what she is? I think a Vogue magazine would have her feeling more like crap than Playboy.
But that brings us to the self esteem of women and what society has done to her AND what we allow to be done to ourselves. Things don’t hurt us unless we let it. Names, naked pictures—-its all meaningless unless WE give it power and we do…we give it power. We allow these harmless magazines, these harmless pictures to make us feel less than ourselves. We do it to ourselves and we do it to our sisters. If a woman has high self esteem and is sure of herself then we knock her down by calling her names or by saying she is conceded. We could drag the harm all the way back to religious organizations and the suppression of women in general if we wanted to…but like other sensitive issues, it really comes down to the individual.
And obviously it does because how can a 300 pound woman be and feel more sexy than a size 0? And yet it happens every single day. Could it be that the 300 pounds of sexiness has gotten past all the crap and BS? I bet you she can’t be torn down by any magazine.
And respectfully, I honestly don’t think Porn creates rapists, child molesters or anything else. Those criminals will be sick in the head with or without porn. That’s all psycho—whatever that has nothing to do with porn.
And as far as criminals profiting off of porn, well, again, we give them that power. We have forced the naked body and acts of sex to be taboo. When we push it out of our cultures and make it forbidden or shameful, then we give the criminal power to control and take over.
This is a very good discussion.
You realise these don’t even qualify as hardcore porn by most people’s standards, right? I mean, you can buy them openly in newsagents and petrol stations. And yet you admit these could be harmful – so if they’re harmful, how much more so are the truly explicit videos and images?
If adult women aren’t immune from the impact of pornography on their self-image – and they really aren’t, given the popularity of labiaplasty:
http://www.hda-online.org.uk/cosmetic-surgery/labiaplasty.html
How much more vulnerable are young girls (well under the age of consent, and so no one should be looking at their vaginas other than themselves) who attempt to please their equally young and impressionable boyfriends with Brazillian waxes?
http://tinyurl.com/2dt7xc2
Look, if you enjoy porn, good for you. But can we please stop pretending that it’s consumed entirely by consenting adults, fully able to resist the negative messages and distorted images of female beauty? Or that everyone who participates in it is doing so freely and with full consent and enjoyment? It’s like prostitution – for every ‘Pretty Woman’ there are a thousand drug-addicted or abused women being forced into it by pimps or traffickers. It’s not a healthy, happy, trouble-free industry, and its uncritical acceptance isn’t doing anyone – least of all, women – any favours.
And before anyone yells ‘Prude!’ at me, I point you to my writing output as evidence I like a good, sexy story as much as anyone. Because fiction isn’t exploiting real people.
C.H. Scarlett: Yes, this.
Like I said above, I have friends who’ve worked in porn, I’ve looked at a fair amount myself, and I’m pretty sure all the guys I’ve dated have used it regularly. To address the last first: none of them have expected a triple-D bleached blonde who loves double-penetration scenes. Or, if they are, they haven’t said so. 😉
Could the industry stand to be better regulated, and have I heard of very sketchy situations? Definitely. But I’ve also come across—heh—very professional, very ethical filmmakers/photographers whose models and actresses were very happy to be working for them. Do I love the profusion of sketchy consent and explicitly degrading language? No, not at all. I’m with the author of the True Porn Clerk Diaries: not all porn is degrading, but some is, and sometimes that’s the point. When that point is made without being labeled as a fetish, I have issues—but I have issues with things in lot of genres, including, at times, romance. (Catherine. Coulter. Enough said.)
It’s complicated, basically, and I don’t think it’s a good idea to paint an entire form of media—everything from Planet of Anal Delights 4 to feisty indie webcam antics to naked girls in Playboy—with the “sketchy and degrading” brush. (And, honestly, I’m a little…less than thrilled with the way that the romance-isn’t-porn conversations usually involve insulting porn.)
All of that said? If dude was looking at porn for 12 hours a day…yep, I’d call that an addiction, and good on him for recognizing that and taking steps to deal.
Romance is about language, a touch, and emotion. Porn is well…Porn. There is nothing to it but what you see. It does not exist for intellectual discourse, except for whatever you can exclaim at the end of a logistically fantasic scene. I have been reading romance novels since I was about 10 (I’m now 32) and people have criticized me for living within the pages of my books. But these novels are based off of someone else’s reality, the names have just been changed to protect husbands and ex-boyfriends from embarassment. Everytime a novel is passed from reader to reader, there is a new understanding or another laugh or cry to be had. (When you pass along porn all you get are sticky fingers and way too much sharing). An addiction to porn means that there might be an unrealistic view of how relationships and physical contact should be and spend way too much time alone. An addiction to romance novels might mean that you have the ability to read, you are an occasional daydreamer, and you need a temp escape from subways, soccer practice, ballet lessons, and departmental meetings.
Here is the difference in Porn vs. Romance novels :
*you can almost never duplicate the porn scenes unless you have a case of lube, a hand pump, and a plastic tarp.
*You can steal a phrase from a novel and really rock someone’s world.
Dear Conflicted,
Thanks for the sharing your situation. I completely understand what you mean. When I started reading romances for the first time, my husband asked the same question. And I think that is a totally legitimate question because of the misconceptions that surround the romance genre. And it’s not just men that think that romance novels are chick porn. Plenty of women think that, too. Hell, I was one of those women until a few of my friends convinced me to read one.
But once you’ve read a romance, it is very clear that of course these books aren’t porn. Your HBO analogy was spot on. Sometimes the fade to black scenes detract from the quality and integrity of the story.
@AgTigress: I think you misunderstood my post. I am not calling anything that “triggers lust” porn; I think that’s a terrible way to look at sex, desire, and porn. It minimizes choice and action on the part of the individual doing the “lusting”. What I meant was that we re-purpose products all the time, including for the purpose of porn. That doesn’t mean the intended, non-porn use of those items isn’t still valid or shouldn’t remain available for such.
Perhaps I should have written this: If I claim that my house is porn-free, but I regularly masturbate to that steamy scene from the film Cold Mountain, then I am a hypocrite. Similarly, it’s not fair for me to ban WW2 pin-ups and the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit edition from my house on account of sexy poses and then buy lots of books with pg13-rated covers, no matter if I really do only read them “for the stories”.
Conflicted came up with a fair response for her situation, imo: boyfriend understands that neither publishers nor she view romance novels as porn, and ebooks mean she doesn’t also have to have a shelf full of bare-chested Fabio if she and her boyfriend prefer a Fabio-free home in addition to a porn-free one.
While there may be a good deal more to this story than seen in this letter, I had the same reaction SB Sarah did.
As I read it, the skin on my back crawled. My RUN THE FUCK AWAY meter redlined at “It’s obvious to me that he really wants me to stop reading them and possibly even get rid of the ones that I have.”
That right there? Stinks of control issues.
Now, it’s possible that his control issue is a matter of projection: he had/has a porn addition and now he sees “porn addiction” in anyone who glances at a sexy picture. Sometimes people who are recovering from an addiction go way over to the other end of the scale and become insane anti-[their addiction] crusaders. This is about the kindest interpretation I can put on the boyfriend’s motives in that sentence I quoted two paragraphs ago.
I had to read this since I have heard it once before and ran the other way. Then of course I asked my husband what he thought.
After he thought about it for a bit, he said that I can’t see where romance novels are porn. If they don’t always have sex, how could it be porn. Also the idea of asking me to give up my books he thinks he has a better time asking for my left arm. (I am so happy that he already is well aware that I will not be giving up my books.)
So not all men are like this. Besides the idea of telling you to get rid of something you love is a sign of controlling. I hope it works out for “Conflicted.”
What a mess—I waded into this late in the game. I don’t much care what other people do as long as it’s their thing and doesn’t impact me. I’ve seen a few porn flicks and I admit that I’m baffled by their appeal. When I was in LA I watched one on the hotel TV that showed a bunch of giggling young women at a Nevada bunny ranch running around nekkid and playing with big pink dildos that were somehow attached to pogo sticks. Or something. Zzzzzzzz. To me the movies are boring and silly. Not to men because they tend to like in-and-out-let’s-move-on. My books, which embarrass my mother (tough stuff, Mom) have pretty specific love scenes but are tame by comparison to most. She nearly had a stroke when I had a hero suckle the heroine who was still nursing her baby. I thought it was very sexy myself.
I’d say the main diff between porn and romance is that we know that an ironclad requirement of romance, like it or not, is the relationship and the HEA. And that difference is major.
Sue:
I’m still very unhappy about this definition, which seems to mean that pornography is ‘anything that may in certain circumstances incite to sexual arousal, whether designed for that purpose or not’, so that when it happens to titillate someone, it’s pornographic, and when it doesn’t, it isn’t. It doesn’t work as a definition, chiefly because it can be applied to almost anything.
I think that pornography is a creation, an artefact or work of art, made with the primary intention of arousing lust. As such, I believe it to be neutral, not something bad, and worthy of proper study. We must shake off the perception of ‘pornographic’ as a pejorative adjective, which is a hangover from older classifications that were extant when any allusion to sex was deemed obscene. We should reserve our value-judgements for our assessment of the skill and competence with which it has been crafted, and its effectiveness in achieving its objective.
Our experience of artefacts involves the intention of their creator, the competence of the execution, and the interpretation and reception we bring to them as audience, which closes the circle and completes the dialogue — a dialogue between creator and viewer or reader. (We have to sideline the performing arts here, which was why I became disconcerted by talk of pornographic films: I was thinking only in terms of drawing, painting, sculpture and writing, where the connection between artist and audience is a direct dialogue, not a communication mediated through many performers who are themselves simultaneously creators and receivers/interpreters. Definitions become much, much murkier when defining the creator / receiver relationship in the case of any performance. A picture or a written text is a simple, private dialogue, whereas a play or a symphony is a public conversation involving many people.)
There is a clear difference between pornography, a book or a drawing, shall we say, that is made for the sole purpose of isolating and arousing sexual response, and evoking ‘pure’ sex without the complications of human personality and individuality, and erotica, which deliberately embraces the complications of human emotion. Neither is intrinsically ‘better’ than the other, and both may be executed well or badly, but they are not the same. The former appeals to pure instinct and physical need, the latter to the social urge of members of a gregarious species for a more complex closeness with one or more specific individuals.
Some of you here have castigated the concept of pornography (in performance form, I think) because it ‘exploits’ by dehumanising the participants. But the whole point of pornography is ‘essence of sexuality’ freed of the human dimension that introduces so many distractions. That is exactly what makes it pornography rather than erotica. It operates on the same level as the ‘sex with a stranger’ fantasy, which is quite common in women as well as men, and which is perfectly acceptable as a fantasy, though not something that it would be wise to act upon in real life, for practical and social reasons. Erotica deliberately operates on the level of a desire for a satisfying relationship rather than simply a satisfactory act of copulation.
I do think that the difficulty in discussing this subject is almost entirely down to fuzzy definitions. The basic etymologies make the difference between pornography and erotic art/writing perfectly simple to distinguish. We are still left, as in all life, with the difficulty of classifying the results on a scale of excellence, and it is a fact that there is a lot of really, really bad pornography around. But that does not make the genre itself ‘bad’. It is no more good or bad than sexuality itself is.
Well I will apologize for misunderstanding the sitch. I am so happy that this was really just a query on the distinction between romance and porn rather than my scenario of juvenile male guilt trip. On the subject of the distinction between the two I believe that porn can be romantic and romance can be porn. but they are not necessarily the same. A well written pornographic story where the participants have some sort of emotional entanglement can be a romance. And I am sure we have all read a romance novel where the sudden onslaught of banging just seemed out of context like the stereotypical porn flick “story intro”. Good luck with explaining the difference.
Porn is a subject. Romance is a subject. Text and images are the mediums through which these subjects are conveyed.
Honestly, it sounds like he’s given something up and wants you to give something up too. The question then becomes, why did he give up porn?
Was he addicted? Was it impacting his daily life? Or, did he give it up because it upset you?
If he gave it up because it upset you, then yes, he has a right to ask you to give up your fictitious love life for him. If he gave it up for himself, because it was impacting his job and regular life, then – you have a decision to make. Is his comfort worth it to you? If the answer is no you shouldn’t be getting married, hon. If the answer is yes, you still need to talk to him about it, find out how deep this goes. Maybe come to some sort of agreement where you limit the time you spend with your romance novels and keep them away from him.
Maybe he’s jealous. Maybe he feels they give you this idealized image of men he can’t live up to, the way you might feel porn gives him an idealized image of women that you don’t live up to.
This is your call, but the word “porn” covers a lot of ground and seems to have triggered a lot of emotions. Talk to him about it.
Maybe questioning whether romance is the same as porn masks his real, underlying concern. Maybe her reading of romance makes him uneasy about how she views his body and his sexual performance.
Let’s face it: romance heroes are almost always tall, hard-muscled, and handsome—and, if there is a sex scene, though it may be implied by the heroine’s wide-eyed gaze as the hero undresses or stated specifically, he is frequently generously endowed. In those books that do have sexual encounters, the hero doesn’t fail to deliver a satisfying experience. As we all know, real life doesn’t always work that way. (And, no, I’m not suggesting that men are or should be responsible for a woman’s sexual satisfaction.)
I think this is the same issue that many women have with their guy indulging in porn. We don’t all have flat bellies and double D’s. We worry that, if the women in a guy’s porn magazine reflects what he likes, we won’t measure up.
My own husband was concerned about my reading romance, once he learned that some of them do include more than just kissing and heavy sighing. However, despite the fact that my husband is balding and has a little paunch, he is definitely my personal hero. Just as he doesn’t expect physical perfection in me (thank goodness!), I don’t expect it in him. The important thing is that he’s perfect for me, and I’ve made sure to let him know that. Now, he’s much more comfortable with my reading romance. So, perhaps the boyfriend is really anxious that her expectations will be unrealistic, and he just needs some reassurance.
As for the difference between romance and porn, it’s hard to define but easy to feel. The definition may vary from person to person, too, depending upon their backgrounds. Why are some films that are NC-17 or R porn while others are not considered porn but, rather, good movies with some degree of explicit sex? In my opinion, it’s the focus on the relationship or other aspects of the story as opposed to being focused solely on sex. To me, it’s like the difference between going out with someone for the first time with the intention of spending the night and going out with someone and having such incredible chemistry that, despite having no intention of spending the night, you do. The former is purely about the sex; the latter is about the relationship.
I would unhesitatingly define such a story as erotica, not pornography at all. The ‘emotional entanglement’ makes it so. Whether it is a romance or not depends on the nature of the plot: if it has a developing relationship that survives and overcomes problems, and reaches a happy and evidently permanent resolution, then it is a romance.
Memoirs of a Woman of Pleasure (Fanny Hill) is well-written, contains a vast amount of sexual activity, much of it purely voyeuristic, but also well-drawn characters, character arcs, a proper plot, emotional attachments, and a happy ending. It has served as the type of the ‘pornographic novel’ since 1749, but for the first 200 years of its existence, all sexual descriptions in books were classed as obcene and illegal. In fact, it is not, in my view, pornography. It is an erotic romance.
Going off at a slight tangent here, one thing that Conflicted might try is to persuade the boyfriend to read a couple of her romances. He would learn what they are like (always a good idea if if one is judging something…), and moreover, he might like them. Many men do.
bookwench, I should have just said, “What bookwench said,” but, believe it or not, when I started my response, yours had not yet posted. However, between writing my response and getting interrupted by a phone call in the middle, by the time I pressed submit, you’d already made my point—and more succinctly.
So, ditto!
And hence the point I was trying to make . In my opinion, erotica is porn. I define pornography as material where the main focus is the sex act in any of its many variations. I see nothing negative or obscene about it. So to me erotica is porn. Whether it is also a romance depends largely on the plot and the skill of the writer.
I’ll quote Robin Williams—
Ann Somersville,
You misunderstand my response which was towards someone elses comment—-I am not saying Hustler and Playboy are harmful. In my opinion BARBIE and VOGUE does more harm on a person’s self image than what pornography does.
As far as young girls and Brazillion waxes—-I am talking about adult women here, not young girls. If young girls are being influenced by boys or porn or those boys are being influenced by porn then that’s a matter for the parents. Teenage girls, though, will always be trying to impress boys with something—-however, perhaps if parents raise the stakes a bit and change their parenting, maybe teenage girls will expect boys to impress them instead with—-whatever.
And again, as I said above in my previous post—-we give criminals the power. We could easily clean up prostitution if we wanted to. We could easily take away the power of the pimps—but instead we blame things like porn. We are always placing blame on something because people love their crutches. Its so much easier than finding a real solution.
Sheriguy, if you really regard pornography and erotica as synonymous (which was, indeed, the usual viewpoint in the 19th century, because all sexual description, even in medical textbooks, was thought equally obscene), then I consider that you are lumping two kinds of sex-oriented writing into a single category.
I see a need to draw a distinction between material that deals only with sexual action, omitting any consideration of personality and individuality, and that which describes sexual encounters between well-realised human characters, rather than types or ciphers. Pure written pornography does not even follow the usual guidelines of storytelling: it consists of a series of vignettes with only the most tenuous connections (usually an exotic setting). Its aim is to arouse the reader, but specifically not to distract him/her with any thoughts about the fictional characters. To that end, they are reduced to interchangeable ciphers, often identifiable only by their genitalia. The deliberate effect of removing the individual human context enables the reader to concentrate solely on sexual excitement and gratification without emotion. As I said, it is the ‘sex with a stranger’ fantasy.
Erotic stories may also arouse sexual feeling, naturally, but that is not their only purpose. There is something far more complex going on, something that is specific to those fictional characters, within a story arc, that engages the reader emotionally and intellectually as well as physically.
If you can’t see a difference, fair enough, but I assure you that there is one, whether you see it or not! 🙂
Ha! I love all these opinionated bitches telling Conflicted to ignore her opinionated boyfriend : ) Power. Manipulation. Fear. Addiction. Control. Sex. Desire. Freedom of speech. Feminism. How do I love this site…let me count the ways. Thank you ALL!
Some good points, IcePrincess. But:
These are two different matters entirely, I think. It’s one thing for commenters on a blog (with Bitches in the title, no less!) to give opinionated advice when asked for it…
It’s quite another for a person to be told by a loved one what she should or shouldn’t do in her own home.