I’d been thinking about interracial romance over the weekend, while I was trying to draft a section for The Book (OMG The Whole Genre?!) {that’s a working title, obviously} that examined minorities in RomanceLandia. What a verdant, green – or white, perhaps – pasture of peaceful writing that was. Not a landmine in sight for my clodding feet to trip on. No, no. *head desk* So when a friend of mine forwarded me a news article that Mildred Loving, the Black woman whose marriage to a white man overturned laws against interracial marriage died today at the age of 68, I had to think how different the world is in 2008 vs. 1958. Before I move on – our condolences to her family. I always thought it was unspeakably awesome that the name of the court case that declared laws restricting marriage on basis of race unconstitutional was called “Loving v. Virginia.”
Since I count among my neighbors several interracial couples and families, I have been spoiled with an experience that indicates interracial marriage as something that’s somewhat common. As the friend who forwarded me the article said to me over email, I’m nuts if I think that’s the rule across the US. It’s certainly not the case in romance – interracial couples in romance novels are still somewhat rare, though there are more of them of late. One writer of bestselling awesomeness told me recently that many romance writers, including herself, would love to write a romance that crosses racial lines – but those books are difficult to get into publication from established print romance publishers. In the e-format, there’s a more vigorous supply, but then, the “e” in romance is the one area that does tend to push the boundaries of the genre a little bit harder, giving the “nudge nudge” a more diverse meaning. Samhain has an entire section of interracial titles, featuring white heroes and Black heroines, and vice versa—and hero/hero, as well, so clearly someone or many someones are shopping for interracial romance specifically.
On one hand, it’s difficult to ask the right question. Would the presence of an interracial couple stop someone from buying a romance? (Would it stop me? Nope.) Is interracial romance solely the domain – and by domain I mean “located in the bookshop section” – of Black romance, because the minute one half of a protagonist pair is Black, the book moves toward Black Romance as a subgenre marker? Speaking solely for myself, I’m curious why interracial romance appears to be mostly found in epubs, small presses, erotica, or within Black romance publishing lines. Brenda Jackson has written several for Silhouette Desire, but those seem to be an exception among the backlist of series romance – and yet another reason how the dismissed-as-staid category romances can sometimes not just push but shred the envelope of boundaries every now and again like nothing else.
I’m also curious whether it’s a target people shop for, a type of storyline that some really enjoy the same way I am a total and complete sucker for a certain plotlines, including one that is too embarrassing to mention. If people shop deliberately for interracial romances, then why aren’t there more of them in mainstream romance (unless they’re there and my Google-fu has failed me)? Is there a difficult barrier towards publication of a romance that takes place across cultural and racial lines? And what counts as interracial, anyway? Does a Black woman and a Middle Eastern man count as interracial? (This reader thinks so.) Or is “interracial” code for solely white/black combinations? Hell, depending on what anti-Semite you ask, my marriage would be interracial.
Mostly I’m wondering simply why there aren’t more interracial couples in romance. There’s more than a few powerhouse examples in mainstream romance across several genres, so I am curious why there’s not more of it. For example, Ward’s Brotherhood plays with race, and the question’s been asked of her point blank whether the Brothers are Black (her answer was that they are not an identifiable human race so it’s impossible to say). Kleypas’ Mine Till Midnight also crossed a racial line in the historical sense, in that her hero was Rom and the heroine was white – a combination that caused me to question the endurance of their happy ending, given the social prejudice working against them. And someone will hunt me down and kick me in the knees if I don’t mention the multi-book subplot of Brockmann’s Sam & Alyssa. All three examples were holy crapping damn successful. Perhaps the problem is that what I perceive of as “few” needs to be adjusted. Someone else might think that’s plenty.
I’m not so much asking for a list of interracial romances, though feel free to suggest some that you’ve enjoyed, but more of a “Interracial romance: what’s up with that? How come there’s not more of it?” type of random musing. So? Your thought? Ha. I crack me up. I know you have more than one.
Of course I meant, that’s a genre, not a gender. Now, if it was called ‘White Women’s Romances,’ which ostensibly it is, then it would be applicable.
Precisely.
Lizziebea – I have to side with you here being that I’m a misplaced Kiwi. I get sick and tired of this same argument, over and over again, just because people tend to forget that there is a big wide world out there outside of the borders of the USA. The world is a huge melting pot of different cultures, not just Americans with black or white skin colours.
I’ll read anything romance. Skin colour has never been an issue for me and I could care less if the author is black, white or green with purple polka dots (although I’d suggests you get the polka dots looked at). And for what it’s worth, I’m heartily against segregating books because of their authors skin colour – AA as a genre, no different than erotic/paranormal/historical I have no problem with—but this is, in the majority, an American book store issue.
Roselyn – How about instead of working into a lather about ‘how you white authors have got it better’ (that is what I garner from a few of your posts—btw, is there some secret form from publishers that asks what your skin colour is?Unless your meeting face to face, how would they know?) how about using this venue to put a positive spin on things. Give name and titles, give recommendations on books, hell, pimp your own. Show your own ‘genre’ to its best, instead of dragging into the quagmire of the great American race divide. Own your work with pride for what you, as an author have achieved, not what you think you haven’t because you have black skin. Instead of readers walking away from this blog with a list of twenty odd books to add to their TBR pile, they are walking away with a sour taste in their mouths and no impetus to go and buy.
The internet is a great thing, it lets anyone around the world find out about all sorts of wonderful things. It lets anyone around the world, whether they be black, white, asian, latin etc purchase my books. And it also lets anyone around see how much of ass an author can be and choose not to let their fingers do the walking and hit the buy button. Every single author, as a business person has to remember that and make the most of any opportunity thrown their way.
And to preach what I speak – from my personal reading pile Bridget Midway has some good eBooks out with a specifically black/white theme as does Lena Matthews.
Anne, I did exactly that. I mentioned my book. I even mentioned a book I have upcoming from an epublisher this summer. I mentioned several other books and authors. I pointed out that a book that’s been snarked on this forum is also an IR book. I gave people a link to an MSN group where they could find other readers of IR/MC romances. Other posters did the same. If people leave this thread with a sour taste in their mouth instead of the same righteous anger they’ve directed towards any number of other issues in Romancelandia, that’s their issue not mine.
I’m still waiting for someone to explain to me why my anger is questionable, yet the anger that’s regularly posted on various blogs is not. Why is my anger ‘unproductive,’ yet people getting pissed of at RT is not? Anyone care to address that?
Actually yeah, they did. Some people went over the top in both situations and in both situations were told that the kind of reaction they were having wasn’t productive. In fact, the whole contributing to ferrets was a way of turning a negative and unproductive rant into something positive and productive.
Could you explain why my righteous anger is seen as ‘being an ass?’ I haven’t stalked anyone or threatened their children. I’ve merely pointed out that there’s is discrimination going on. A fact that people have been talking about for more than five years now. In what way is that ‘being an ass,’ and somehow justifies someone not buying my book?
On behalf of Seressia Glass who can’t post from where she is:
“We’ve had these discussions in various incarnations around the blogosphere. Every time a black author gets angry, people respond with sighs, claims of race cards being played, or chastisements that anger isn’t helping. Question: do your responses to the expressed anger help? Please tell me what you are doing to bring the inequality issue to the forefront. Please share your tips for getting booksellers and publishers to change their policies. Let us know how that letter-writing campaign is going. Report back on how that boycott of stores with segregated shelving is progressing. I’d really love to know what everyone else is doing constructively to move the industry forward. Because I gotta tell ya, shaking a finger and going “tsk tsk” to a frustrated author contributes nothing. So let’s get back to the constructive. I’d really love to know what others are doing to bring this issue to the forefront—maybe we can pool our resources. What are YOU doing about it?”
—
Seressia Glass
THREE WISHES, 10/08
Life. Love. Romance.
”[…] not what you think you haven’t because you have black skin.”
This is a trend, I’m noticing of late, of non-Americans insisting that blacks in America not having any real problems. I wonder where this comes from. (I suspect it’s because blacks in the U.S. media are rarely portrayed as anything but scary, and based on my travels, this is the only face I see us showing. I’m extremely troubled by it, but that’s a tangent.)
At any rate, Roslyn is talking about the U.S. publishing industry because that is the one she has to deal with. Why on earth is this such a problem? She (we) cannot address the New Zealand or European or East Asian or what have you marketing climate because we have no interaction with it or influence upon it. But how is the fact that these disparate world markets have triumphed over the problems that we face here (or never experienced them, or experienced completely different problems) tsupposed to help Roslyn? I mean, it’s all very encouraging to hear about, but how is “Shut up and suppress your valid feelings” any more productive than “This publishing reality that I have to live with makes me angry”?
Is it that we’re all just sick of hearing about it? In which case I’d submit that if it became different, then we wouldn’t have to talk about it anymore?
Again, we are talking about FEELINGS. Not REVOLUTION IN THE STREETS.
Unless this is strictly a “let’s plan viable courses of action and implement them in ten steps” comm, with absolutely no room for “what are your feelings, perceptions and opinions.”
So where’s our fundraiser? (Metaphorically speaking, of course) If you’re so concerned about the negativity that I and others like me have generated, why in five years hasn’t anyone started a letter writing campaign, a boycott or something to that effect? Someone mentioned earlier that we should try to work with white authors on the issue. I’m still waiting to hear from a white author who has any interest in the same. After all, it has been five years. Ferret-gate took, what a few days? Yet again *crickets*. I’m castigated for being hostile, yet I don’t see anyone else being challenged on their absolute lack of interest. Injustice is going on, dozens of authors are being disenfranchised, yet the only person being called racist in this thread is me. Isn’t that funny?
Authors have been asked their race. Black writers have been told that they must write black characters or they won’t be published. Black writers have been told to ‘play up’ the racial aspect of their books so that they better fit into the marketing niche.
At least one author who is black, but wrote white characters was told to change the race of the characters or she wouldn’t be published, despite having a contract. Google Millennia Black if you want to learn more about her lawsuit against Penguin.
Publishers know we’re black because for the most part there are only two publishers that regularly publish IR romances and they’re both black publishers. That’s Parker and Genesis. Most of the writers submitting to (or even knowing about) those publishers are black with a few exceptions.
Writers are encouraged to attend conferences where they have an opportunity for a face-to-face meeting with editors. Obviously, this is better than your manuscript landing in the slush pile. So yes, at some point, most authors who are published will have face-to-face interaction with their publisher.
Oh sorry:
(that is what I garner from a few of your posts—btw, is there some secret form from publishers that asks what your skin colour is?Unless your meeting face to face, how would they know?)
Generally one does meet face to face, at least with one’s agent. And the agent is pretty integral to the direction marketing takes. And we have author photos. Even if the face-to-face thing doesn’t happen, I can’t imaging the coy acrobatics one would need to go through to conceal it. Seems stressful.
(Interestingly enough, unlike much of the world, we don’t submit photos on our resumes (curriculum vitae). I’ve always found that interesting.)
I am troubled by the underlying suggestion, though, that to get anywhere (in the U.S.) one must hide one’s race. (Or pretend that it has no influence one the work one produces?)
“imagine”!! Sorry! 🙂 *turns off internal editor*
I’ve heard other African-American authors say the opposite. By having their books in a separate section, their readers (who are predominately AA) know where to find them, and they think they sell more books that way.
I’m not saying the segregation is fair. I probably wouldn’t want my books put in some little-known “multicultural” section.
I was referring not specifically to you, but to the ‘authors behaving badly’ potential. For me, authors behaving badly is gender/race/culture neutral.
Race discrimination cuts both ways. In one breath you said AA authors are discriminated against and segregated in USA book stores – an issue I can heartily get behind supporting as wrong. But then in the next you rail against other authors because they are white—sorry, but slap me in the face with a wet fish, then still expect me to support your cause? It ain’t going to happen, no matter what the cause/race/creed or colour.
I currently live in America, yes, but only for the last 6yrs. I do not have the same preconceptions as those raised in the USA and that was the point I was trying to make—Not every author, and not every publisher, and not every editor is American. Neither is every reader. Yet you slap all of us with that same you’re-white wet fish.
Wait wait wait. Why is Roslyn getting the third degree? She came here to discuss a topic and brought up really pertinent issues; and did it well, with logic, and directness. Rather than berating her for her feelings, we should be using that as a springboard for further discussion. Because she’s right about the color of the author issue. We shouldn’t be mad at her for noticing that. We should be discussing how to change that. For everyone here that jumped all over here for being mad and disappointed and tired; that’s pretty patronizing. Hell, I’m white and I feel patronized. If this were a discussion of feminism, and some guy came over here and patted our heads and said that our perceived inequality was all in our heads and was a social construct that was outdated and it didn’t really exist…would you accept that?! Um..no. We’d be all over his ass and for good reason.
Do angry posts make one uncomfortable? hell yeah! No one likes to think they’ve been, perhaps inadvertantly, part of group that has been discriminating another (well, Ok, I don’t; I shouldn’t speak for others). But the reality is: if you don’t ask yourself whether it’s happening, chances are good it is, and that you are participating. Do you think Men came right out and said they’de been oppressing women for thousands of years? Um..no. In fact, men still oppress women and they HATE HATE HATE to be reminded of that fact. I haven’t seen a man stand up for female oppression EVER. Does it make me hate men? Oh, my, no. I love men. Do black women hate white women? I wouldn’t think so. Do black women hate the privilages that come by just being white. yup. And they should. We all should.
So..can we get rid of that hateration and get back to the discussion; because I think it’s a really important subject that we shouldn’t just shoo away because it makes us uncomfortable.
-Randi
But then in the next you rail against other authors because they are white—sorry, but slap me in the face with a wet fish, then still expect me to support your cause?
She’s not railing against the authors. She’s expressing resentment of unfair privilege and annoyance with those who enjoy the privilege but won’t admit it (both parts of that last bit are necessary to the equation—“have the desired thing” and “won’t admit to it.”)
She is not categorically accusing every single white author who ever wrote an IR of being a terrible person—she is expressing her desire to enjoy the same levels of success for doing the same thing, her anger at the system that doesn’t allow this, and her frustration with those who don’t admit the system exists.
Those who don’t find themselves in any of the above categories don’t need to feel “attacked” by anything she says.
“the system” meaning “The mainstream publishing industry of the United States of America and no other country that I am qualified to discuss”—for the record.
(Aw. “friends21”. I love these.)
Guys,
Rosyln has a valid point. *sighs* Negating what she’s saying by using the hostility gets you nothing, doesn’t work. And it shouldn’t.
She has an issue to be angry about, and she’s angry. It’s really sad she can’t bring up the issue without others adding oh, but… as a way to prove it not so.
I’ve written interspecies, interracial, intersexed. And for me it is about the two characters and their attraction, growing emotions. Other side issues add to the conflict and plot, but only 1 story I wrote dealt largely with the inter, and that was Kitten. One character being a were tiger was a large driving force for prejudice in the book.
This actually makes me think of a discussion I had in one of my reading groups. We were talking about historical romance novels and why, out of all the times and events in history, the vast majority of novels written take place during a 300 year period and are set either in England, Ireland or Scotland?
I had visions of an author submitting her work set in Ancient Egypt or in Czarist Russia and the publisher saying “This is so wonderfully written, the characters just leap off the page and the love story is just beautiful. Now just a few changes…can you make the heroine a feisty red-head? And can you make the hero a Duke who is also a Spy? And can you change the Russian Revolution to The Napoleonic War? Other than those few things, it’s perfect!”
Actually, the way Rosyln expressed herself said exactly that. I hate white authors because they’re white. See her words again, below.
To me, that’s a pretty blanket accusation against all white writers, period. That’s sure the way I took it and it’s why, I think, she’s gotten some backlash. If she had expressed herself more fully in that post I think a lot fewer people (including me) would have said anything.
And I haven’t even said Roslyn doesn’t have a right to be angry, my question was whether it would really advance her cause. I don’t think it does.
But then again, I think this whole thread is a pretty pointed look at why here in the U.S. people shy away from IR. Look at the can of worms we’ve opened. People have gotten angry and hurt and we’re being polarized, sometimes by being shoved in a direction we might not even want to go. As an example I bet Roslyn thinks I’m on the “white author” side when really I’m not. I’m just doing like a lot of people, trying to understand and think through the situation.
As for the ferrets: ferret-fund-raising launched because ferrets are cute and, though smelly, you can’t smell them through a picture. Plus, black footed ferrets come out at night, live in prairie dog burrows and generally aren’t seen much. Perfectly innocuous endangered species, so I thought.
(note: I am not telling you to act like black footed ferrets. Nor am I telling you that you smell! I would never do that.)
But behind the scenes I received several email messages from people who explained why there was a problem with prairie dogs and their dens as a pest to ranchers, and that it’s not just a cut-and-dried (dare I say it YES I DO) black and white issue as “Oh, cute and cuddly throw money at them, stat.” Which is why I also directed folks to Native American charities that had good ratings from Charity Navigator. It’s never that simple.
So: in answer to Seressia’s question: what am I doing about it? Me, as a reader, I’m looking for good things to read. I’m really honestly not particular about Black romance, Latina romance, white romance, werewolves and vampires as potential placeholders for disparate cultures romance. Whatever. Please make me feel. I like that part a lot. It’s all about feelings – and it’s all about romance novels (unless it’s Samhain where it’s all about the story and really where do they get off publishing stories? Upstarts, they are). So in the spirit of taking a deep breath, what else can I do?
Well, I don’t go to bookstores often. I shop online and boxes of books arrive on the porch and the cry of “What?! More BOOKS!?” is heard in my house. As a reader and consumer who shops largely online, I don’t have a shelving dilemma facing me. I don’t trek over to this part of the store for the Black romance and then over there for the YA romance and back downstairs for the historical romance that’s shelved among the historical fiction and back upstairs yadda yadda yadda. Is there any power in my shopping? Probably not, except in the royalty sense.
What can I do, honestly, about whether books are shelved in Black romance because the author is not white? Say, “Holy crapping damn that’s lame?” It is. It’s really freaking silly. It’s dumb. It’s offensive. it doesn’t make any sense. But the best currency I have to effect a change? Is currency.
And that is why I shop online. So I don’t have to run all over the store looking for one book that could possibly be shelved in sixteen difference places, be it YA, paranormal, fantasy, sci fi, Black, historical, Gabaldon, Ward, Roberts, or whatever the hell. That is my response. I don’t use stores. I don’t particularly like shopping on the whole and facing the maze of what’s the book and can I remember the author’s name correctly exhausts me before I go through the doors.
I am totally interested in hearing your experience, because it is important. I also want to read your books because I like romance a whole hopping lot. And I understand that yet again this issue circles back to how safe and effective it is for an author to criticize her publisher for the decisions that publisher makes on her behalf, and that one of the best options is to raise awareness directly to the reading and buying public. So what is the best option in terms of what to do? Me, I move my mouse around.
I agree with you here, Roslyn.
The one part of this I object to is the assertion that white readers don’t want to read interracial Romance. Now you may argue that they only want to read interracial Romance written by white women, but I would respond that it’s primarily (at least in terms of print books) white authors who have, as you say, had their IR book integrated and therefore not marked as “other” in that supplemental way. That is, if Romance were simply integrated in terms of the race of authors and the race of characters, all kinds of women would be reading all kinds of Romance. In other words, I think the segregation works on two (at least) levels: it marginalizes the black author and marks her books as “different” than the rest of Romance. I know that doesn’t mean that ALL white readers want IR books, but by the same token, I just don’t think the reverse is true, either (that white readers don’t want to read it, or only want to read a certain version of it). And let me tell you; I would NEVER want AA/IR Romance to mainstream in the same way as so-called Native American and Sheikh Romances—as, in other words, the fetishized exotic.
Bottom line: I think readers need to tell their local bookstores that they don’t want the segregation. They need to write publishers and let them know that they want more IR/racially diverse books. I believe that reviewing AA/IR books on the blogs can make a difference, too. For so many Romances, readers don’t even know what the author looks like, but publishers overtly draw reader’s attention to the race of black authors, and while that shouldn’t matter, it obviously does, and in a way that marks books as separate and unequal. One of the reasons I think this is such a factor is that I know of an AA author who crossed over from ebooks to a major NY publisher (not an AA imprint), and who wrote IR ebooks, and now writes similar books for the print pub. I don’t know how many people are aware of her race, but she seems to have had no problem crossing over, in large part, I believe, because she’s marketed as Romance, pure and simple. Not hiding the race question, in other words, just not making is *an issue*.
As for ebooks, I believe that they have the potential to help change the landscape for print publishing of IR books, because they provide a way for NY pubs to see that all kinds of readers appreciate diverse Romance (isn’t this what happened with erotic Romance?). I know it’s long past due, and I understand the frustration and the anger, but I do think things are changing, and that the openness of many in the online Romance community to racially diverse Romance is a mark of this change. Which is why I also understand why readers who have no problem with IR books feel a little blasted when all that hostility comes their way.
“Actually, the way Rosyln expressed herself said exactly that. I hate white authors because they’re white. See her words again, below.”
All right, I’m looking.
” I’m hostile towards white writers, who, because they’re white won’t be segregated as my books are. Thus, they’ll sell more books and have more opportunities than I do.
To me, that’s a pretty blanket accusation against all white writers, period. That’s sure the way I took it and it’s why, I think, she’s gotten some backlash. If she had expressed herself more fully in that post I think a lot fewer people (including me) would have said anything.”
No, it isn’t. I can see where this is coming from? But no, “hostile” does not equal “hate” by any means Siblings who’d defend each other to the death harbor hostilities toward one another. I’ve been “hostile” toward my mom, in my teen years.
Perhaps if she had said “jealous” it might have been clearer, or less of a piquant point? But probably not as accurate. “Jealous” carries a far more pathetic connotation.
A lot of valid points have been made by a lot of people. One of the things I like most about epublishing is that it’s opening a lot of doors for writers. There you’re not judged by the color of your skin but strictly the quality and/or marketability of your work. If your story won’t sell to one, simply try another. Each epub has a house-style, a market they aggressively go after and just because your book doesn’t fit their ‘style,’ doesn’t mean it isn’t any good.
Another point that was made is that authors shy away from writing about other cultures for fear of not doing them justice. As an author wanting to create a really 3-dimensional character, I can’t just give her asian (black, latino, greek) features and hope it goes over well. She has to have ‘ethnic flavor’ in order to round her out, or the reader needs to know why.
For example, if my h/h are super rich, I don’t expect them to behave in a typical manner. Ditto, military. Why? Because those are cultures I don’t understand and am not familiar with, so I can’t take issue if they are misrepresented. But if you’re writing about me (a black southern female in my economic group), I expect there to be something about the heroine I can relate to, and I think this is why a lot of authors shy away. And research is not always the answer because we ALL know how the media misrepresents people and things, and that includes the internet.
Okay Ladies…..take a breather. You’re justified in your feelings Roz and Seressia. But let’s offer these ladies the opportunity themselves to get hooked on books by AA authors then later find out that the series will never be finished because even though they….wait….I’m not going to add fuel to this fire. Instead, I’m going to offer a booklist of great books…some will have race as a factor…so you all will have to deal with it. We do. but they’re all great books that members of our board have read and loved.
So here goes…(I’m going to type until I run out of titles and hopefully if I miss some, someone else will fill in the gaps)…
Big Spankable Asses by Kimberly Kaye Terry, Angie Daniels and Lisa G. Riley.
At Last by Lisa G. Riley (There’s a sequel and right now, the title escapes me. But I still love you Lisa!)
No Committment Required by Seressia Glass
Three Wishes by S. Glass
The Color of Trouble by Dyanne Davis…This book one Best New Author when it was released.
Many Shades of Grey by D. Davis
Let’s Get It On by D. Davis
Two Sides To Every Story by D. Davis
Again by Sharon Cullars
The Object of Love by Sharon Cullars
Loves Redemption by Kimberly Kaye Terry
Just Like Candy by K K Terry
Ebony Angel by Deatri King-Bey
Against The Wind by Gwynne Forester
Being Plumbville by Savannah J Frierson
Rockstar by Rozlyn Hardy Holcomb – EXCELLENT BOOK!!!! Had to tell myself I couldn’t read it again…and again…and again.
Crush by Crystal Hubbard
Anything at all by Bridget Midway, Shiree McCarver, Aliyah Burke and Marie Rochelle
The Starletta Duvall Series by Judith Levin Smith.
Kyra Davis has a mystery series out…quite funny, everyone will love it…that features a bi-racial heroine in an IR relationship.
The Politics of Love by Giselle Carmichael
50% of Sandra Kitt’s entire catalogue of books and she’s FABULOUS! EVERYONE should read her immediately.
Fact is ladies, I know I’m forgetting a ton of authors and books. In fact, most of the authors listed above have other IR books.
Oh….L.A. Banks and F. D. Davis both have Vampire series that everyone should check out.
But read these books…if you can find them….then give us your honest and well informed opinion about “Writing Black in a White Industry.”
I think what very often happens in these discussions is that you have a majority of readers saying, ‘yes, we are open to reading more racially and culturally diverse books,’ and some authors who are saying, ‘hey looked at how f*ed up the system is; white authors . . . . , white readers . . . .’ to which the readers feel like, ‘hey, why are you blaming me—I WANT to read these books, I AM reading these books.’ And the authors are trying to explain how they’ve been marginalized and how other readers have made it clear that they DON’T want to read their books, and white readers and authors just don’t understand.’ So you end up with the talking past thing, where the AA author(s) who speak out feel attacked and the readers feel attacked, even though, in the main, they really all agreed on one really salient point: that good Romance is good Romance and readers want as much variety as possible. If we could focus on that, and on how we have some common ground there, I think we could make some serious progress as a community united in the love of Romance. But I honestly don’t know what it’s going to take to get there, how long it’s going to take to get past the MUTUAL feeling of disrespect.
How did you translate my feeling hostile towards white authors to I hate white authors because they’re white? I never said or even implied such a thing. Indeed, I made it clear that I feel hostile towards them because they receive privilege and fail to acknowledge it. Further, their success is used to bludgeon black authors because then readers can claim that they have no problem with IRs because Brockmann was so successful. Totally ignoring the fact that Brockmann, by dint of being white is not ghettoized.
Actually, Sara, I haven’t yelled at anyone. I’ve been online for 10 years, and it’s my understanding that yelling is signified by allcaps. I haven’t allcapped anyone. Indeed, I didn’t ask about activism until people started telling me how pointless and useless my anger is. I think it’s reasonable to ask people if they think my response is useless, what then is their response to the injustice?
I can only tell you what white readers have said. Over the five years we’ve had this discussion we’ve been told by white readers that they feel they ‘can’t relate’ to ‘those books.’ Now, call me crazy, but given that Brockmann’s book was a bestseller I can only surmise that IRs become ‘those books’ only when the author is black.
Clearly given the premise of this post, a sizable percentage of the romance reading audience was unaware that there’s a plethora of IR romances written by black women. So yes, the notion of the ‘forbidden other’ reigns supreme. IRs written by a white woman=safe. IRs written by a black woman=those books.
I personally hate the “African-American Interest” section in bookstores (unless it actually refers to books on history and sociology). My reaction (avoidance) is visceral. (Full disclosure—I am a black woman, although I tend to refer to myself as Caribbean-American, which opens other cans of fun worms.)
Oooooo! Quote tags! I was not aware of quote tags! Here we go!!
This is one thing that really scares me, always has, and is a major part of what keeps me writing sci fi. (Well, that and the fact that I LIKE sci-fi. :-D) But, I mean, think about it. LA Banks is just listed by her name under Sci Fi/Fantasy for her Vampire Huntress books (under Horror in some smaller stores). But when she’s writing romance as Leslie Esdaile Banks, where is she shelved?
(I wonder if it’s terribly difficult for a Yank author to get published in the U.K. or somewhere first? I never see Mike Gayle—“My Legendary Girlfriend” et cetera—shelved under “Black Interest” in Borders or B&N;. He’s right in there with mainstream lit, author photo and all. Okay, he’s a guy, and that’s different, but then, Eric Jerome Dickey’s a guy too.)
I wonder why others aren’t as angry. You’ve been told that other authors are treated way differently than you are. They are shelved off in another zone away from the romance section white writers get shelved in. Some authors prefer it, some don’t like it at all.
Some people are upset because another person expressed their honest feelings about a situation. Being hostile towards white authors because they have better privilege isn’t a blanket accusation against all white authors. It’s bitching about a fricking situation that hurts the poster of those words.
justice91 How appropriate.
I guess the other question is: if you’re going to write an interracial couple, do you have to tackle the “issue”, or can they just be together?
on the “where does your anger and hostility get you?” counterpoint – unfortunately, it seems a reference to the unapologetic mexican glosario is in order here. here’s a description of that tactic:
yeah… to anyone who gets the urge to use this type of “argument” to prove you’re really not being racist and the person you’re addressing is overreacting? don’t. you’re proving the opposite.
I wonder about this, actually:
I’m no industry expert, so I’d love to know—why would an author prefer such a thing? If blacks are only 11 percent of the U.S. population, it seems to me that restricting a book to a dusty back-wall section of the store, based on race, is shooting oneself unnecessarily in the foot (in a way that restricting a book based on genre simply is not, because non-majority people read books aimed at the majority, or aimed at other people’s minorities). I’ve never seen another race cordoned off like this in bookstores. Language groups, mainly, but that makes sense. Not only is it “excluding the majority/whites”—it’s excluding everyone who is not part of that 11 percent. (And it can be a hostile environment. I’ve never seen dirty/distrustful/even puzzled looks being exchanged like this in the SF, or Humor, or History section. Not even in the freaking manga section.)
So what is it that I don’t know that the authors who prefer the AA section of the store have grasped that I’m missing?
OH MY GOD, yes.
Depends on the setting, I would think. (I was completely turned off of the film “Far From Heaven” because of the outrageously anachronistic attitudes and manner of some of the characters.) This will determine if your “issue” will be a matter of external conflict (more historical) or internal (more modern; I’d go so far as to say timeless.) “Will outside forces burn crosses on our lawn?” versus “will he find my pubes too curly?” [sorry! but it’s legit]
This sort of thing is ALWAYS a case-by-case basis. (And I believe that anything that can be done can be done well.)
Yeah, I get tired of the
as well.
Another problem may well be white authors aren’t aware of their own privilege. Or exactly why it would even be a privilege to be shelved in the main section of whatever in a book store. That is something that is assumed will happen, according to whatever genre they write.
For others to get shelved with the mainstream is not as easily accomplished for some. As an author of gay and lesbian romance and erotic romance, I can understand the problem of getting shoved to a niche in mainstream.
Mac,
You’d have to ask Ciar Cullen about the specifics on why some prefer to be shelved in the AA section.
Ciar posted earlier about it.
I know that’s what *some* white readers have said, but you know, in every discussion I’ve read on this, those readers are in the minority (and it’s sometimes just one person who is vocal). But others, more, in fact, have said something different. So I keep wondering, honestly, why it’s the nay readers who come to characterize the entirety of white readers, when there is a growing community of voices (that is, people engaged in discussion) who are yay readers? Why not focus on those readers? Because sometimes it feels like being a yay reader gets you nothing but the need to duck out of the way of flying unfair generalizations and conclusions.
I feel sometimes that if I lined up a thousand white readers who read or want to read IR books, they’d be dismissed as insignificant against the hundred someone else lined up who said they “couldn’t relate to those books.” Whether or not the yay readers are in the majority yet, we’re here, and we’re reading and reviewing IR/AA books, so sometimes it feels like a kick in the teeth to keep hearing about what “white readers” do and don’t want to read. I realize that you’ve been kicked, too, but not by those readers who are embracing IR/AA books (and not, IMO, by white authors who have written IR books, although they can fight their own battles on that front).
sorry, but slap me in the face with a wet fish, then still expect me to support your cause? It ain’t going to happen, no matter what the cause/race/creed or colour.
Leaving aside the issue of how Roslyn should/shouldn’t feel and/or express herself and/or the connotations of the word “hostile” (as discussed by Mac), it seems to me that this is not Rosalyn’s “cause,” not even just the “cause” of all non-white authors who’ve experienced discrimination of one sort or another, but an issue that affects all of us who are romance readers or authors (though obviously it affects different authors and readers in different ways).
in answer to Seressia’s question: what am I doing about it? Me, as a
reader […] What can I do, honestly, about whether books are shelved in Black romance because the author is not white? Say, “Holy crapping damn that’s lame?”
It is. It’s really freaking silly. It’s dumb. It’s offensive. it doesn’t make any sense. But the best currency I have to effect a change? Is currency.
Sarah, I know you were speaking with your “reader hat” on, but (and I don’t want to make this sound like I’m picking on you, because in fact I’m trying to suggest that you’re more influential and have more power than you seem to think you do) I think you’re in a unique position as someone who has such a popular romance blog and a book deal to write about the genre. You’re writing The Book (which one hopes will sell well and reach a wide audience) and I suspect that how/what your write about AA romances, inter-racial romances, and race and culture in the romance genre might also help to “effect a change.”
In addition, you have a “reviewer hat.” Robin wrote that “I believe that reviewing AA/IR books on the blogs can make a difference, too.” I agree with Robin on this.
It seems to me that one big problem that exists is that at the moment it’s hard to find reviews of many of these books outside sites/groups specifically dedicated to reviewing/discussing them. So non-black readers may not see/hear/read about these books. I don’t know how review sites get hold of the books they review, and maybe you mostly review books that you’re sent by publishers, and maybe publishers don’t send you these books, but I wonder if more of them were reviewed on some of the bigger review sites whether that would help change the situation a little? It’s just that from what I can work out, authors partly become big names because of buzz, and buzz creates sales, and there’s a feedback loop. But if black romance authors’ books are (in general, though there may be a few exceptions) cut out of that loop because their books are shelved in a different places, discussed in different places and reviewed in different places, it makes it much, much more difficult for them to reach a really big audience (the sort of audience needed to get onto the NYT list, for example).
Actually, I would think that this exact point would be the perfect starting place for action for change—one thing everyone here wants.
WHY is there one standard for America and another for elsewhere? WHY do the bookstores propagate segregation in the USA, but don’t apply the same standard elsewhere. There is the perfect platform—if the USA is supposed to be the world leader, why on earth do American bookstores allow this type of segregation? (Of course, there is always the potential for it to be turned about face, and authors come forward and say that their sales went through their roof after being shelved as AA versus that huge whopping great big confusing pile of books known as the romance aisle – because believe me, no matter how desperately I want my name on a book in that aisle, I also despair at anyone even finding it while browsing, because frankly, my eyes glaze over when browsing all those spines)
From what I observe, as a whole, the black community in the USA seems to have quite a loud voice, why has this voice not been raised to the media to see some sort of resolution, a cause for all authors to rally behind?(I ask this not accusingly, but as a genuine question)
I don’t know that anyone posting has disagreed that the issue is wrong, just that ranting over it again and again gets nowhere. And my point, that instead of it always coming down to a heated discussion on the haves and have nots, why not yell to the roof tops with a happy voice about how much everyone is missing out on by not shopping with the cool kids out of the AA section? Like I said OWN it. Own the differences, don’t qualify it with a political agenda. As far as I can tell, the majority of readers do not shop with a political agenda in mind, they shop for the love of a good romance book. (On reading that back I sound as patronising as all hell, but I’m trying to say (very badly) how I find these discussions as a reader, and how they affect me when it comes to marketing.)
I stand corrected on the being race issue with publishers/agents based on the obvious experiences of others, and find that a sad state of affairs. And I was not inferring that anyone should hide their race to get a NY publishing contract, but that in fact race of the authors should be of little issue when it comes to romance. Romance should be about the romance, no matter who writes it.
And since I’m contrary like that – If you flipped this around, have you ever thought that a ‘white’ romance author might in fact be rather envious of the fact that AA authors have their own shelf space, and are not lumped in that big morass of books in the romance aisles? In a couple of stores around here I have a damn hard job finding the erotic romances, but if I hit the AA section WHAM, I can lay my hands on a whole heap of titles right away.
Exactly my point – why not try off shore?
r.: ha! Yeah, that about sums it up. Replace ‘brown person’ with ‘women’ and you have my work place! hahahaha.
Robinjn: I have a couple of points: 1) can you imagine how frustrated Roslyn must be, after 10 years, to be fighting the same issues over and over? For any black woman to be facing the same issues over and over and over and over [you get the point]. Frankly, I’m impressed that she isn’t more angry. 2) Add to that that she comes up against the same defensiveness and hostility whenever she is asked to make comments about this topic. I’m going to guess that any one of us here would be angry and frustrated as well. 3) Additionally, the tone of her comments only changed when people started getting mad at her for even suggesting that there was racial profiling in the publishing industry. Then she had to defend herself.
I think, and Rosyln please correct me if this is a completely erroneous impression, that all she is asking is that people (us) think about what her, and other black authors are saying, look around to see if she could possibly be correct, and then if so, speak up about it. *sigh* I don’t think we’d be having this back and forth is we were discussing sexism.
Shayne: There are other authors talking about it. Possibly you aren’t visiting the sites where they are. If one hasn’t heard of an issue does not mean it isn’t happening. Also, [I may have read the second half of your post wrong but this is what I got out of it]if these forums aren’t the proper medium to discuss this issue (but it is proper to discuss sexism, feminism, plagerism, fraud, et al), then what is? SB Sarah opened up the topic; ergo, isn’t this, then, the correct forum? Or are we only supposed to be light and airy and superficial here? Me? I like that this site, and Dear Author, and Dionne Galace, and Monica Jackson, and hundreds of other site, talk about important topics like this, as well as cover snark, reviews, gossip, et al.
Yikes. I guess I’ll insert my shallow comment here. I don’t even know what to say to the latter posts in this thread.
I, for one, love reading books about I/R couples. (I’m white.) I wish I could find more of them, and I’ll definitely look for some of the examples mentioned in this thread.
I look for books in the romance section because, I suppose, in the back of my mind, I’ve always thought of the AA section as for scholarly works or regular fiction, not romance. I wouldn’t expect to find romance novels there. I don’t skip the AA section because I don’t identify with AA heroines or heroes; I skip it because I expect to find romance books in romance, despite the racial or cultural identity of the author or the book’s subjects. I guess I am naive.
Some of the books I really enjoyed with multicultural themes and characters were ones that I found in the romance section—Beverly Jenkins and Eboni Snow.
Okay, it’s The Vixenne’s turn to get in on this:
For the record—IR romances are NOT some sort of weird sci-fi hybrid, though I must confess that sci-fi and fantasy seems to have done a far better job of integrating characters of different ethnicities than has romance (sad, isn’t it)? We all believe that love is colorblind and yet there’s this goofy resistance by some women to not read anything that doesn’t feature a flaxen-haired heroine and some virile blonde guy with rippling pecs (not that I’d kick a guy out of bed for eating crackers, but you know).
IR doesn’t always mean different. It means two people who don’t necessarily LOOK like each other falling in love and trying to make sense out of it. Wow, big freaking difference, huh?
Now, I am a firm believer (as a black woman in an IR relationship with a latino male), that the race-as-plot type books have had their day in the sun. As some of my fellow IMRR’ers will tell you, my biggest pet peeve is the twenty to thirty-something black woman who still lets her family and friends tell her who to date. I’m sorry but that’s just nuts and any woman (regardless of color) who is self-sufficient but still allows other people to dictate where her heart goes, deserves to be with Leisure Suit Larry with the beer gut. I want to read about a heroine who follows her own mind and her own heart and gives a big one finger salute to the opposition. I figure the hero (regardless of color) obviously sees something he likes in the heroine and wants to be with her, so go for it.
Like most romance readers, I want a ROMANCE, especially one set in modern times. Some people would say that taking race out of the book is pollyannish, but I highly disagree. The fact is, ladies and gents, there are IR couples of ALL stripes who do not allow the ignorance of others get in the way of trying to build a life together. Also, consider this—there are so many other conflicts every couple, be they IR or not, face every day. Finances, children, religion, screwy family members—these make great conflicts for any book, including IR’s. And let’s be honest: Guys are guys—they will leave the toilet seat up—this is a universal fact. Women are women—and we want chocolate when we’re bleeding like the hogs from ‘Deliverance’. Let’s stop acting as if there’s something “special” about IR couples because well, we’re a pretty prosaic bunch.
Also, let me dispel this myth that IR ONLY means black/white. It doesn’t. IR can be ANY pairing—and let’s be honest—white female heroines in romances have had their shot being paired with men of other races—native american, asian, middle eastern, etc.—now let the rest of us grrls play too. After all, us chicas of colour have been reading books with heroines who look nothing like us for decades and we’ve enjoyed them. I’m still a huge Regency fan and I look nothing like Lizzie Bennett.
I write Erotic Science Fiction and Science Fiction Romance. My day job before I retired after 29 &1;/2 years was as a bilingual (Spanish/English) social worker.
My older son Aria is an architect in NY. He’s half-black with dreadlocks to the middle of his back. His lady friend is another Architect who emigrated here from Peru with her parents when she was three years old. My younger son, Carlos is half-hispanic, ex-Air Force mechanic attending college to be a radiologist. His ladyfriend is Caucasian.
All of my stories are multi-cultural or multi-racial because I can’t envision a future with only Caucasians. And, of course, I also have inter-species romances between humans and aliens.
SF books where everyone is Caucasian, including the cabdrivers, automatically become wall-bangers for me. Reason #1, I keep wondering what happened to all the other races. Genocide, maybe? Reason #2, If all the characters are Caucasian, it seems to me as if the author is projecting his or her subconscious vision of a future where all the other races have been eliminated.
Needless to say, I love the IN DEATH series and one of the reasons why I love this series is because Nora Roberts portrays a realistic and multi-racial future.
Barbara Karmazin
http://www.sff.net/people/selkiewife
http://www.myspace.com/barbarakarmazin