Thanks to the multiple Bitchery readers who forwarded this over. Erotica author and editor Zane emailed a DC-area email loop the following account of how her latest book is facing an uphill battle in terms of finding places in which to advertise. Why? Because it’s Black erotica? Nope. Because it’s gay. Specifically, according to Zane’s email, lesbian erotica. Read on
Zane’s Apology for the Status of Today’s World
At first, I was going to hold my tongue about this issue; I really was. When one of the biggest National chain bookstores informed my publicist that my latest book was “too racy” for me to do signings there, I discussed it with a few people and let it go. When a book club service that has carried every last one of my other titles decided “to pass” on this one because they did not feel it fit their demographics, I let it go. But, there is always that proverbial last straw and that straw broke the camel’s back last night. I received an “Apology” email from a person who runs an online magazine. It was an apology to her subscribers because someone was offended by her promotion of my latest title. She vowed to not promote any more erotica or books that were not PG-13 rated. I emailed her back to ask if that includes street fiction or roughly 85% of the novels on the market that have some form of violence, profanity, or sexual content.
The book that I am referring to is “Purple Panties: The Eroticanoir.com Anthology.” Now there have been many Eroticanoir.com Anthologies, including “Succulent: Chocolate Flava 2” that just celebrated six weeks on the New York Times Bestseller List earlier this year. No one had a problem with that anthology or any of the ones before it. They sold them like candy, threw them in the front windows of bookstores and had huge displays, and made them the automatic shipments for book club members. From day one, with “The Sex Chronicles: Shattering the Myth,” I have never toned down my content. It has always been what is has been. All of a sudden, there is “an issue.”
The only difference between “Purple Panties” and the nearly two dozen other titles that I have written or edited is that it is a collection of LESBIAN EROTICA. To that, I say shame on it all. It saddens me that we still live in a world that is so sexually oppressed. Now I am not saying that people need to rush out and read the book, or any of my books. I am saying, point blank, that people have a ton of sexual hang-ups that they need to get over. Everything is not for everybody but to “be offended,” to claim that a book is “too racy” for book signings but “Succulent” was not too racy a couple of months ago, nor “Dear G Spot” before that, or the book before that and so on, makes the real rationale behind it obvious. Will they feel that same way when “Honey Flava” comes out two weeks from now or “Another Time, Another Place” in early June? “Zane’s Sex Chronicles” in August? “Sensualidad: Caramel Flava 2” in August? Will they feel that same way when my next full-length novel “Total Eclipse of the Heart” comes out in November? “Head Bangers 2: An APF Sexcapade” in March? Will those books be “too racy” for book signings or to be featured?
Do not mistake this as some sort of plea to sell books. “Purple Panties” is currently #442 on Amazon.com, just as high, or higher, in rank than any book that I have ever put out. It will sell like crazy because it is a book that was long overdue. There are millions of people in this world in same gender loving (SGL) relationships. Who has the right to judge them, or tell them what they should or should not do with their lives?
This saddens me because I have now gotten a glimpse, just a tiny, miniscule glimpse of the discrimination that homosexual and bisexual people face in this world; especially in American society. Eleven years ago I set out on a quest to liberate and empower women”both sexually and overall. To know that we still have such a very long way to go is disappointing. I am not a lesbian but not because I have anything against it. I am just attracted to men. However, I now consider myself an “honorary lesbian” because I am pissed off at the injustices directed towards them and their gay male counterparts.
I am not going to go on and on about this but I had to speak on it. Life goes on.
Blessings,
Zane
P.S. Do not think that, for one second, this will deter me from my path. “Missionary No More: Purple Panties 2” is complete and will be released on schedule next January. “Flesh to Flesh” edited by Lee A. Hayes, a collection of GAY EROTICA, will be released later this month. I am proud of that book as well. People love as they love; not as directed.
I’m curious – is there a bias against lesbian erotica? Has anyone encountered this bias in their own work in the past? I know that a few erotica publishers have mentioned in passing that f/f erotica is not among their biggest sellers – is there a lack of interest in reading female-centered sexual content, or is there a blockage getting it to the marketplace altogether? I know there are different types of discrimination faced more by lesbians than by gay men, but are booksellers reacting to a perceived lack of demand for f/f erotica and protecting their bottom line, or is there a decided aversion to anything lesbian? Your thoughts?
Hijacking the thread to go back to the fem dom thing. I think this is why it’s not popular. The woman is supposed to be passive and submissive and not ask for (demand) what she wants, but be grateful for whatever the man gives her. Of course, erotica written for women tends to have dominant males who give the woman uber-orgazms in a dominatingly powerful way. And yet…
Go back—WAY back—to the original romantic ideal from the medieval era. The woman was put on a pedestal (not my favorite place to be) and worshiped by her humble adoring knight who carried out her every command. He was still manly, fighting in her honor in tournaments and stuff, but she commanded him.
Then again, it’s the submissive who is supposed to be in charge, in a D/s relationship, the submissive who says when to stop. Or so I am told.
Then again, again, there’s a sociology/psychology study of longterm successful marriages out there from several years back that discovered the statistical fact (for what that’s worth) that the most successful marriages were the ones where HE did what SHE wanted…
Damn straight.
Wow, this took me back. I remember when Naiad Press was said to be the lesbian Harlequin—it was meant as an insult. I went to see if Naiad still existed and found that it had closed down but the authors were with something called Bella Books. However, no ebook versions! Not even on Amazon—is no one thinking of profit here?
Anyway, I was starting in the direction of mentioning Curious Wine by Katherine V. Forrest when I wandered off track. Although I am not sure how it has stood up—it was considered hot in its time—1983—is is still in print.
Eisenkreis: thanks so much for the recs. and when you wrote It’s just ten times worse when authors feminize a character that is CLEARLY a tough guy without trying to be ironic about it, yes, exactly!
This is not at all directed at anyone here, but I think internalized misogyny is both real and common, and it depresses me to hear about more instances of its strength. However, my reading this week is surprisingly cheering on the homophobia front, if not the “girl cooties” issue.
A few days ago I read Suzanne Brockmann’s All Through the Night (in which Robin & Jules marry). I was glad to see tasteful m/m sex scenes in mainstream fiction; I think Brockmann manages to show Robin & Jules’ relationship as normal, healthy, and (I hope) unthreatening to her readership.
Coincidentally, today I picked up the new Amanda Quick, The Third Circle. Among the secondary characters are a lesbian couple:
Yes, it’s yet another gay best friend, but this time it’s a woman and it’s in a Jayne Ann Krentz. It doesn’t get much more mainstream than that, so perhaps the next barrier is on its way down…. What could it be next, a Nora Roberts heroine with a female ex? 😉
Pollyanna over and out. Will resume normal Oscar the Grouch attitude in the morning.
I must have missed something here. The signings were not allowed because the book is lesbian erotica? Can someone please tell me this is a misunderstanding, my misunderstanding. Feels like we have just stepped back in time
Rfp—Jayne Anne Krentz has had positively portrayed lesbian characters in her books for years. One of her early Amanda Quick historicals showed the heroine being raised by a lesbian couple, which gave her insights into why the hero had been dumped by his former fiancee.
Michelle Martin, who wrote the lesbian Regency Pembroke Park, over 20 years ago also has done contemporaries with lesbian couples as friends of the heroine and hero.
So that’s why my original comment on this was along the lines of “color me puzzled”. It’s not like the whole idea of F/F relationships has never been touched on in Romancelandia.
Speaking as a bisexual, I have to say, that’s one of the most common misconceptions about us out there. Being bisexual is about having the choice between either gender, not the requirement to have both. I appreciate your desire to be sensitive about this subject, but monogamy is just as possible and likely with bisexuals as it is with lesbians/gays/straight people, so you’re, um, kind of working from a misconception in the first place…. (I hope you’re not too far along in your book!)
I’m also a fanfic writer of m/m and f/m (or m/f), but almost never f/f. This annoys me, as I’d love to write more f/f, but I don’t often run into series with numerous women that a) interest me and b) make sense to be paired up (although my current love, Fire Emblem 10, has about 70 playable characters, so I’m not having nearly as much of a problem as usual!). I’m thinking about that movie rule, although I can’t remember what it’s called. Something about only watching movies where two major female characters can have a conversation that isn’t about men. Anyone remember this one?
Back on topic, the trend of feminizing one of the two men in m/m really makes me cranky. The reason I read and write about the two men in a given pairing is because I like the way their characters interact, and if one of their characters has to be warped beyond all recognition for them to get it on, then, uh, no thanks. I’d say I’d go read het if I wanted to read about a man and a woman in a pairing, but then that gets into sexist traditional gender roles, which is another big DO NOT WANT right there.
[/$0.02]
Also forgot to add: I’m not quite sure why my favourite characters in the (usually Japanese videogame or animanga) series I’m involved with are usually men. I’m thinking it’s either the roles and personalities the men are assigned as opposed to the ones given to the women, or (yikes) internalised misogyny on my part. I’m not quite sure which I should hope for—internalised misogyny is embarrassing and upsetting, but much easier to fix than the larger societal problem of the roles and personalities women tend to be given….
“Am I the only straight woman in the world who dislikes m/m and likes f/f?”
—Dunno. I’m straight (so straight that I’ve told my husband if I were to switch sexes, I’d be extraordinarily gay) and I like m/m and don’t like f/f. I was also raised by two feminists and ‘60’s liberals and am a Unitarian Universalist Pagan. So no, I wasn’t taught to hate gayness or my own body or nonsense like that. I just don’t get off on f/f.
And on caresses…believe me, it matters who’s caressing whom. There are numerous guys out there who I wouldn’t let touch me at all. But if given a choice, I’d rather have a guy caress me sexually than any woman.
I do see a big difference between a gay secondary character and a protagonist who’s gay or a sex scene with gay characters. But it was a cheering coincidence in my reading that I ran across two romances in a row with positive portrayals of same-sex relationships. Not because either m/m or f/f particularly hits my buttons, but because
1. I like variety in my reading
2. I like seeing the genre expand to include more readers and more inclusive messages
3. If vampires can have happy endings, ANYone can have happy endings.
Thanks lijakaca and snarkhunter – it was precisely the disgusted reaction I was talking about with regard to homophobia and internalised misogyny. Perhaps I should have italicised the word “disgusted”. But if the people complaining about my wilfully-incorrect characterisation of them had bothered to read the next paragraph, I mention the fact that I totally grok the “meh” (i.e “not for me”) reaction and draw an analogy between lesbian seXX0rs and straight buttsecks if you’re not that keen on either. If the book is otherwise appealing, then you’re probably not going to mind an occasional scene along those lines.
kirsten saell – I’m delighted to assist with adding some humour into your day. 🙂
The use of the word ‘disgusted’ is generally the problem since regardless of the contest it’s used in, or even the VERBALIZED tone it takes, it tends to resonate a very singular message whether or not you want it to. If you meant something else, choose a word that is legitimately fitting; I for one would have raised an eyebrow even if it was stated to me in a sarcastic light in a face to face confrontation; I always have. I don’t take it lightly from gay men and I don’t take it lightly from anyone else. ‘Disgusted’ is ‘disgusted.’
So what EXACTLY do you mean if you don’t mean that? Italicized tends to mean EMPHASIS in case you forgot, and this remains true for nearly every printed or published medium. Maybe if you used the latin variant of the term we might be playing a game of semantics, but sweetie, honey, darling—
—we really have to give you a status update re: words and which ones you can italicize and legitimately change the meaning of. ‘Cause wow.
Hi, all—this has been a great discussion! Much appreciated! I’m late to the game, but glad to be here. I write genre fiction (mysteries, spec fic, and contemporary) with primary lesbian characters, though my work always includes a veritable cornucopia of people (unless I’m writing spec fic, in which there are species other than human involved in the story). Some of my work includes f/f sex and romance and I’ve been puzzling about markets and why it seems that f/f “doesn’t sell” very well.
Someone mentioned Naiad Press, which was a groundbreaker in the 70s and 80s because they DID publish books that featureed f/f romance and sex. Since the early 90s, there are more presses that do lesbian fiction. Bella Books is indeed the inheritor of the Naiad list and they are, in fact, doing ebooks. Not to the extent I personally think they should, but hey. Bold Strokes Books is probably the leading press in lesbian fiction and they publish maybe 30-40 new titles a year. But you’ll also now find Regal Crest (which is publishing a couple of my novels), PD Publishing, Intaglio, Spinsters Ink (they’ve been around a while), and Blue Feather. A number of other houses like Torquere (I’m published with them as well) and Bedazzled Ink take f/f fiction, as long as it’s a good story. [And please, forgive me, publishers I didn’t mention—space limitations.]
Reading the comments here makes me realize that whoa, maybe part of the issue is that not many people know what’s out there with regard to f/f fiction and don’t know about the authors who are currently writing it. I grew up reading authors like Edgar Rice Burroughs, Ray Bradbury, and Frank Herbert and I always wondered why the women in those books weren’t kick-ass strong characters, period. I also wondered why they never seemed to hook up with other women sexually or romantically and why, when literary lesbians DID hook up, invariably they got killed or committed suicide or lived these godawful heinously depressing lives. That wasn’t my experience, so I started writing kick-ass women who know who they are, who have issues and hang-ups, good points and bad, but hook up with women. And I found some women writers who wrote those kinds of characters. Like Marion Zimmer Bradley’s Darkover series. And Anne McCaffrey’s Pern (which, yes, can be a bit heterosexist, but DANG those dragons were cool and the goldrider women did kick some serious ass) and some of Ursula K. Le Guin’s stuff.
At any rate—I’ll be the first to admit that I have read some poorly written f/f (we in the biz call f/f “lesfic”). Hell, I’ve written it myself, in my nascent writer days. I’ve also read some poorly written non-f/f fiction, as we all undoubtedly have. But I now know which f/f writers are going to give me a dang good story as well as maybe some f/f action and there are probably at least 15 whose work I will buy sight unseen because I know I’ll be getting a hell of a read. I prefer a dang good story in conjunction with f/f action. I also read m/m now and again, but I’m one of those who prefers a good plotline in addition to the hot n’ sweaty. I read myriad genres as well as nonfiction, and I just like a well-written story, and if there are adults gettin’ it on and enjoying themselves in the logical context of the story, then that’s fine with me.
So. Back to one of the issues at hand. Do y’all think that maybe part of the issue with f/f “not selling” might be due to the fact that a lot of readers might not know what all’s out there and what’s good (i.e. a good story)? I certainly don’t expect women who identify as straight to get off on one of my stories or books because I sometimes include a little f/f action. But maybe they’d like the surrounding plotlines. Would, like, a developing romance between two women and then a sex scene totally turn some of you off even if the book was a good story? I’m curious, because I’m trying to figure out this “f/f doesn’t sell” thing. And is it because maybe not many readers know what’s available and what’s a good read in f/f?
Thanks a bunch, all, for the conversation.
cheers,
Andi
Yes, it would.
I hate to be the first to make a troll-like comment here but:
Sucks to be you, then, Kassiana.
I will say here that reading this thread has been a practice in finding only a few shards of light amidst a buttload of disappointment. Women like to think they’re better than men in repsects to a lot of things—but homophobia and the dislike of relations between two women is so rampant amongst lol breeders lol that I’m failing to see how straight women could EVER claim to be better than their male counterparts, aside from the obvious fallacy re: humans are humans are humans etc and it doesn’t matter what’s between they’re legs.
The only thing that seems to make this easy to stomach is the fact that many of the lol breeders lol decided to say that in spite of the fact that is was a ‘huge turn-off’ (hey girls, do you know why good looking guys aren’t in LOL BREEDER LOL porn? because guys are afraid of getting turned on by other guys) they don’t think it should’ve been kept from publication. And even then it seems like a feeble attempt to seem politically correct.
I think the issue of female homophobia should probably be addressed in this day and age, much less feminine dislike of their own genitalia. Otherwise Kassiana’s little ‘comment’ is what blew it for me. Sorry to—whomever started this, but I’ve really had enough of I GET OFF ON SAUSAGE FESTS ONLY LOL ETC.
If I wanted to listen to this, I’d’ve kept living with/occasionally sleeping with the gay men you ladies (WE HAVE A TERM FOR YOU YOU KNOW) are so desperate (wet, not much different than ‘hard and objectifying TEH LADIEZ cause lol lesbos are hot,’ but oh my god we’re women we’re so much better than that!!!!) to read about.
I don’t like reading stories where men are castrated.
I don’t like reading stories with graphic gore, like the descriptions of having one’s foot chopped off in Misery and how it feels to have one’s collarbone broken in Bonecrack.
I don’t like reading stories that are clearly only male-oriented, like Alistair MacLean.
Anyone going to say that makes me evil and bad and homophobic, like Eisenkreis did, just because I also don’t like reading stories with f/f content?
I’m not trying to keep those stories from being published. I am part of no concerted effort to keep others from reading those stories. I just do not like them and will not give them my money or time. So fucking what? I support gay marriage in all states, not just California. I support equal rights for gay people in all ways.
I’m not asking you to read m/m if you hate it so much. If you don’t like guys’ genitalia, go stare at your own or other womens’ for days. But daring to say that my dislike makes me bad is fucking stupid. If you want to be fucking stupid, I guess that’s your right, but don’t you dare use your fucking stupidity to libel me.
I’d rather not read f/f either, but that’s just a preference, and it doesn’t in any way mean I’m a raging lesbianphobe. Come to think of it, I can’t stand m/m either.
Hi, all—
Hmm. Here’s another question. First, some context. I read Randy Wayne White’s mysteries/suspense books. He’s totally heterosexual and the character, “Doc” Ford is also heterosexual and does get some action in the books. I’m not heterosexual (I identify as lesbian), but I dig Randy’s books and I like the Ford character and the women he hooks up with and the way they negotiate their relationships/hook-ups. Because ultimately, intimate relationships between adults—regardless of the sex/gender of the parties—have common ground: how much do I like this person? Are we sexually compatible? Is this something potentially long-term? Is it just short-term and if so, am I okay with that? Who IS this person? How much do I need to know about him/her before sex? How important is that? Where are we going with this?
These are questions that we all ask (one hopes) when we deal with sexual intimacy and regardless of the sex/gender of the partners with whom you engage, there is, I would argue, some common ground.
So I guess I’m wondering why a good story with a lesbian protagonist who got a little action now and again would be a “turn-off” for some people and would dissuade them from buying a good book with a good plot. Especially if the character was cool and human and interesting and the plotlines were engaging. I read m/m as well, but usually within the context of mystery/suspense/sci fi because those are genres I’m personally interested in. And yeah, a lot of times, there’s an m/m pairing which is fine by me. I’m not reading to “get off” when I read these genres, but I’m always interested in how an author gets characters together (I prefer consenting adults) and how an author writes a relationship between them.
Interesting. And if you think about it, most books that deal with mystery/suspense/sci fi or similar genres do often feature potential romantic/sexual hook-ups between adults. And if we’re talking mainstream, that’s most often heterosexual. I support authors who write engaging stories and characters. I’m not put off by consenting adult sexual/romantic relationships, whether gay, straight, bi, lesbian, or queer. Sex is a normal thing between humans and I don’t care what the physiological make-up is of the people having it. If it’s a good story and I like the characters (flaws and all), I’m going to buy the book and support the author.
Anyway. Just another comment—I started reading m/m because I felt myself knee-jerking against it and I decided I needed to face that and see where my internal reactions were coming from. So I started reading m/m fiction and found some not-so-great stories, but I also found some really great stories with really great characters and I’m glad I took that journey because I found other talented authors. As a writer, I’m always looking to improve my craft and the more I read across genres, the more I learn. I’m not sure I could write a convincing m/m sex scene or relationship, but hey, I feel more confident about trying!
Thanks again, all, for the discussion.
cheers.
—andi
Wow, this is quite the thread… I did not read all the gagillion comments, but I must admit that some of them had me quirking my lip and even shaking my head. Since I didn’t read them all, answer me this:
Am I the only “breeder” (I have 5 kids and have been happily married for over 17 years.) here who likes to read f/f but can’t stand m/m in any form?
I usually am the oddball in any group.
i also have kids krsylu, and cannot stand m/m but will read f/f at will hehe and this thread is out of control, shouldent we start a new one?