Thanks to the multiple Bitchery readers who forwarded this over. Erotica author and editor Zane emailed a DC-area email loop the following account of how her latest book is facing an uphill battle in terms of finding places in which to advertise. Why? Because it’s Black erotica? Nope. Because it’s gay. Specifically, according to Zane’s email, lesbian erotica. Read on
Zane’s Apology for the Status of Today’s World
At first, I was going to hold my tongue about this issue; I really was. When one of the biggest National chain bookstores informed my publicist that my latest book was “too racy” for me to do signings there, I discussed it with a few people and let it go. When a book club service that has carried every last one of my other titles decided “to pass” on this one because they did not feel it fit their demographics, I let it go. But, there is always that proverbial last straw and that straw broke the camel’s back last night. I received an “Apology” email from a person who runs an online magazine. It was an apology to her subscribers because someone was offended by her promotion of my latest title. She vowed to not promote any more erotica or books that were not PG-13 rated. I emailed her back to ask if that includes street fiction or roughly 85% of the novels on the market that have some form of violence, profanity, or sexual content.
The book that I am referring to is “Purple Panties: The Eroticanoir.com Anthology.” Now there have been many Eroticanoir.com Anthologies, including “Succulent: Chocolate Flava 2” that just celebrated six weeks on the New York Times Bestseller List earlier this year. No one had a problem with that anthology or any of the ones before it. They sold them like candy, threw them in the front windows of bookstores and had huge displays, and made them the automatic shipments for book club members. From day one, with “The Sex Chronicles: Shattering the Myth,” I have never toned down my content. It has always been what is has been. All of a sudden, there is “an issue.”
The only difference between “Purple Panties” and the nearly two dozen other titles that I have written or edited is that it is a collection of LESBIAN EROTICA. To that, I say shame on it all. It saddens me that we still live in a world that is so sexually oppressed. Now I am not saying that people need to rush out and read the book, or any of my books. I am saying, point blank, that people have a ton of sexual hang-ups that they need to get over. Everything is not for everybody but to “be offended,” to claim that a book is “too racy” for book signings but “Succulent” was not too racy a couple of months ago, nor “Dear G Spot” before that, or the book before that and so on, makes the real rationale behind it obvious. Will they feel that same way when “Honey Flava” comes out two weeks from now or “Another Time, Another Place” in early June? “Zane’s Sex Chronicles” in August? “Sensualidad: Caramel Flava 2” in August? Will they feel that same way when my next full-length novel “Total Eclipse of the Heart” comes out in November? “Head Bangers 2: An APF Sexcapade” in March? Will those books be “too racy” for book signings or to be featured?
Do not mistake this as some sort of plea to sell books. “Purple Panties” is currently #442 on Amazon.com, just as high, or higher, in rank than any book that I have ever put out. It will sell like crazy because it is a book that was long overdue. There are millions of people in this world in same gender loving (SGL) relationships. Who has the right to judge them, or tell them what they should or should not do with their lives?
This saddens me because I have now gotten a glimpse, just a tiny, miniscule glimpse of the discrimination that homosexual and bisexual people face in this world; especially in American society. Eleven years ago I set out on a quest to liberate and empower women”both sexually and overall. To know that we still have such a very long way to go is disappointing. I am not a lesbian but not because I have anything against it. I am just attracted to men. However, I now consider myself an “honorary lesbian” because I am pissed off at the injustices directed towards them and their gay male counterparts.
I am not going to go on and on about this but I had to speak on it. Life goes on.
Blessings,
Zane
P.S. Do not think that, for one second, this will deter me from my path. “Missionary No More: Purple Panties 2” is complete and will be released on schedule next January. “Flesh to Flesh” edited by Lee A. Hayes, a collection of GAY EROTICA, will be released later this month. I am proud of that book as well. People love as they love; not as directed.
I’m curious – is there a bias against lesbian erotica? Has anyone encountered this bias in their own work in the past? I know that a few erotica publishers have mentioned in passing that f/f erotica is not among their biggest sellers – is there a lack of interest in reading female-centered sexual content, or is there a blockage getting it to the marketplace altogether? I know there are different types of discrimination faced more by lesbians than by gay men, but are booksellers reacting to a perceived lack of demand for f/f erotica and protecting their bottom line, or is there a decided aversion to anything lesbian? Your thoughts?
hmmm, Good Author has a really interesting point, but not sure how much I agree with it. Must think more.
And sorry for the grammatical/spelling errors. Like “tried” instead of “try”, etc
My two problems with f/f in the epub world? They are mostly short or short than short stories. I need me some story, please! Please save me from the anthologies. I hate anthologies. And then, many of the places that do pub f/f are epubs from which I just don’t buy. Two of the places, I will regularly buy might have 3 f/f stories per year.
I am more picky about f/f, than m/m which I predominately read. I don’t like f/f as much as m/m, much for the same reason I’m not so into m/f, I have a hard time relating to the f. I’m just not the sort of girl that makes it into a lot of m/f romances or even f/f. And not that I can’t experience the story from a foreign perspective, but sometimes that just doesn’t work for me….especially with erotica.
I havent read all the comments yet, so sorry if I repeat anything already stated.
My personal preference, is that I love m/m, dislike f/f, and adore fem dom.
For me, part of what I like about it is thats its different. Normally the guy tops and the girl is all weak and trembling before his power. Its nice to have a role reversal and see the lady running the show and bringing the guy to her knees, and being poised and in control while doing it.
As to m/m and f/f…I can fully appreciate the female form. Its quite awesome, I do agree, very sexy, aesthetically appealing. But f/f still holds no appeal to me whatsoever. I think its because yes, I do get uncomfortable thinking about another girl hitting on me, not because I’m homophobic but because in my head at least, being around girl’s is a comfort zone, a place where you can go and not be oggled. And for me, you take that away, make it a place where someone is just as likely to be staring at your chest as anywhere else, and I get nervous.
Its not that I have a problem with anyone being a lesbian, its that I am not one (to the best of my knowledge), and have this awkwardness over the possibility of being hit on by a girl. I would be flattered. I would also be uncomfortable. Thats just the way I think it is for me. Plus, as I have no desire to go touch/stroke/lick/do anything else to a girl’s body, it doesnt appeal to me to read about another woman doing those things.
With m/m though…I love guys. They’re wonderful, so I have no hangup with two men being together and loving each other and fully enjoying reading about the experience. I would love to touch and stroke and do whatever with men, so reading about a woman or a male doing whatever doesnt bother me, because it reflects my own personal preferences and desires, and I can relate to it. I cant relate to f/f, though, because I just dont feel it.
And on the “ew, girl parts,” subject….I do think that to a degree women in America (or at least in the younger generation) feel that their genitalia is not beautiful. I’ve heard numerous comments along the lines of “ew, did you see that girl’s bush? why doesnt she shave it off? Thats just disgusting.” Things like that dont inspire that many feelings of comfort and beauty in your body, when the general consensus seems to be that your body as it is is pretty nasty.
Some of that probably relates to America’s ongoing fetish with hairlessness, but I think a large part of it is the thought process that guys have penises and erections, awesome, cool, thats wonderful…lets not talk about those woman parts though. Guys will freely admit to masturbating, women will not. To me, at least, it seems like male sexuality is much more accepted than female, and that male genitalia is a more acceptable and common object than female. And if you remove the male part from the equation, I’m not all that surprised it doesnt sell.
How many people in on this discussion are actually lesbians? Raise of hands, girls.
Me personally, I identify lesbian, and have been continuously disgruntled and disheartened by the trends in lesbian fiction and the attitudes towards f/f situations in fiction, fanfiction, you name it. Presented in cinema, f/f situations are ‘nonthreatening’ sex scenes that, as someone else mentioned, ‘have a male lurking somewhere in the background.’
F/f is often sublimated for the sake of m/f interactions, that it isn’t a ‘real relationship’ until a man is involved, or the f/f thing is just a phase. This is in terms of Hollywood—so there’s a lot of messages out there that flat-out say that two women together are incapable of reaching the depths of a male/female relationship, or a male/male one for that matter. I have been around plenty of gay men and while they have some pretty colorful things to say about straight people, the scathing lesbian commentary is let loose like you wouldn’t believe; I think some of them are more biased against lesbians than frightened straight men thinking they’re being emasculated.
This is just part of the problem, though—and when I say these things, I’m speaking in terms of mainstream outlets, that all of us are exposed to when we’re younger, growing up, and dealing with this kind of thing.
Me personally, I love girl parts. Adore them. Can’t get enough of them. They’re gorgeous, they’re a massive turn-on, and I could bury my face in that for *hours*; I love every nuance, every movement, every contraction, and I never see f/f sex described in the way that I’d like to see it. Intense, visceral, incredibly desirous, intoxicated with one another’s tastes, scents, touch… Needless to say, if any of you know any fic like this, please, pitch it my way.
I won’t repeat what snarkhunter said except to say that I remember my first sexual experience, I was terrified of ‘the smell,’ and was wondering what anyone would want to do with something tha could get the nickname ‘furburger.’ So anyone who says we aren’t programmed to think our bits are subhuman isn’t paying attention.
Back to the ‘no one likes lesbians’ song and dance:
Recently, BSG had two female characters being intimate with one another, inferring that at least one of them was flat-out lesbian. Both characters were explicitely hated characters in the series, or at least ones that had been the cause of a great deal of damage. Every time I’ve seen lesbianism pop up in the mainstream, there’s always something about it that screams ‘THIS IS EVIL AND WRONG. GIRLS.’
I won’t deny that men don’t have it easy in cinema either; they don’t. If you want more info on how CINEMA treats this subject, go watch ‘This Film is Not Yet Rated’—seriously, do it.
Otherwise: Where men tend to write off lesbianism as just a phase, or feel threatened by it (if we’re talking generalizations here), women tend to think even less of it. I hate that this is what we’ve come to, and as a woman who is TOTALLY about other women, I never stop feeling more insulted by *other women* in concerns to this topic in the fiction and fandom communities.
Saying nothing of the fact that m/m has even more ‘fantasy rape’ than m/f fiction. ‘It’s not rape though! He said yes eventually! HE WAS SAYING YES WITH HIS EYES!’
I suspect most erotic-romance readers—who are, let’s face it, largely straight women with a smattering of gay men—would rather read about the glories of hard dick than of “slippery folds†and oozing va-jay-jay. I know I would. The latter just has way too much squick factor.
Straight female erotic-romance reader here, and I don’t fit your generalization. I don’t see any innate squick in either set of parts—the only squick is in that choice of words. “Oozing” is gross for ANY body part.
Which parts I’d rather read about depends on the point of view during the scene, the characters’ own attitudes toward those body parts, and whether the scene strikes me as pure erotica or as advancing plot or relationship. Perhaps it also depends on whether a scene invites identifying oneself with the hero or the heroine—but I’ll have to think about precisely what I mean by that.
I can actually believe that there would be a lack of interest in f/f erotica among publishers who typically sell to straight women. M/m erotica is interesting to straight women, as is f/m erotica. But f/f erotica may be more interesting to straight men and queer women. So if you want to sell the f/f erotica you need to actually target those audiences.
This is something that publishing houses have missed out on with the lesbian community in a big way. I would bet Zane’s book would sell even better if there were targeted ads in queer women’s magazines or websites. Although there are queer women who read romances and f/m erotica, the numbers aren’t huge so you need to find different ways to advertise from them.
It’s interesting because queer women (some anyway) really dig m/m erotica and porn. I wonder if this is because they are exposed to it in the same queer bookstores.
I remember shopping at B & N and getting really confused looks from salespeople when I’d bring up my copy of Girlfriend or Curve and the latest Jude Deveraux.
The hypocrisy is what bugs me as well. It’s just wrong and a discredit to the company that chooses to take that stance.
Since so many have expressed opinions on gay romance, I’ll dip my toes in as well.
I am a straight, mid 40’s, white woman. I’ve read few f/f stories but not because I don’t like f/f romance but mainly because the synpsosis of f/f that I’ve read, one or both of the main characters are usually very young. I find reading about 18-25 year old (college age) characters boring in ANY format, I’ll pass it up and choose something else.
This kind of piggy-backs on a class I’m taking called Violent Women, where we study violent women in movies/TV shows. In almost all the cases we’ve seen, the women who are violent are portrayed with subtextual hints- at the very least- as lesbians. So it’s not just that lesbians=wrong, it’s that violent (aka bad) women= lesbians too. Passvity becomes a heterosexual female trait, and women who don’t fit this become painted as bi or lesbian.
For people who don’t like reading f/f because they don’t enjoy reading about women’s bodies being carassed, etc- what about in m/f when the male carasses the female’s body? (since you can’t read body language online, I’ll add to say I’m asking this as a curious question, not accusing).
It’s not surprising that no one is wanting to sell it, really, though I’m sure Barnes and Noble would do it since I can personally attest to them having a gay/lesbian section with racy stuff on the shelves. (Harry Potter release bash and a friend and I were trying to hide from the crowd.) As far as I can tell most people find the gay scene rather squicky or just generally uncomfortable. Yes, it’s bias. Serious bias because most people in America don’t actually want to BUY it nor do they want to see it. I know I don’t like it, but I’m not going to force people to do what I want just to satisfy me. Most are more willing to look at yaoi (gay boi stuff) than yuri (gay grrl stuff) on account that girls don’t like to read about girls doing it with other girls, though that doesn’t stop the yuri fangirls doing it. I still don’t understand the fascination with either.
just saying that while it’s very irritating that America can’t just get a grip and send it off to the Gay/Lesbo section of the store where it belongs rather than stomping on it before it can even get that far it’s also very understandable.
I personally have never been asked by an editor to remove any f/f stuff from my work. I honestly think if you’re beng told to take it out, you need to go over your editor’s head and complain.
And I think I’m the only woman here who is not really into m/m (or did I miss a few others?) I could take it or leave it, I don’t seek it out at all.
A lot of m/m has really left me cold, but the same could be said of any other gender combination out there. I do have my preferances, but I really am open to anything, as long as it’s well written and emotionally involving. I have found wonderful m/m stories almost as hard to find as great f/f—the only real difference seems to be the high ratio of gay:lesbian available.
Two recent books I purchased, a f/m/m/m and a f/f, didn’t hold me past the first 50 pages, even though the sex was competently written. I just didn’t feel anything for the characters, and that’s something I need, not just in romance, but in erotica as well.
We all know that phrase, men who think with their dicks? Well, apparently, I have sex with my brain. The mechanics of the process don’t matter so much. It’s a lot more complex than body parts for me.
But there’s no heroine to put yourself in the place, of, was my point. when I’m reading m/m I don’t go, “Mm, I wish he was doing that to me!” because, well, I don’t have the stuff he’s doing it to.
As for EC….maybe their policy’s changed. My title Almost Human actually opened with the heroine in bed with a other woman, and I was never told to change that. Although I did notice it wasn’t used for the website excerpt. TPTB also allowed mention of a f/f/m scene, again with the heroine, after she’d met the hero.
I’m sure, round about the time I was first submitting to e-publishers a couple of years ago, that EC and several others said they were actively interested in acquiring gay and lesbian fiction. Since EC is very driven by the bottom line, I can only assume that it just hasn’t done well for them.
the whole MM over FF thing just smacks of hypocracy. I’m not saying yaoi fans should read yuri if they dont want to, but I am saying that to discount femslash while promoting guy on guy is like saying ‘It’s only okay for men to be homosexuals, because I think that’s hot’. Telling one to come out and play and the other to keep it in the closet is just a twisted step backwards for gay rights.
Personally, if I were to read slash erotica, I’d much rather read FF than MM. Practically all my friends are into the guyrotica, but I could never get on board. I’m all for boy couples, but I dont need the details (and yet my gay neighbor comes over and tells me them anyway….) and that is a personal prefrence. Mainly, my prefrence for not reading anything to do with anal sex. I just dont find the anus sexy—in fact I think it’s the least sexy part of the human body. But that’s my opinion.
And that said, if I were to come accross a MM scene in a regular hetero book, or a MF anal scene—-I’d just skip it! I wouldn’t red flag it just for a paragraph, I truely dont think that’s necessary. If half the book is something some folks wont like, fine, point it out in reviews by all means. But just a scene? Page hop, you won’t die.
Yes. I have. I pitched a book to my editor who declined it without seeing it when she found out there was more than one f/f scene.
*shrugs* Two of my favorite books have f/f scenes. Sasha White’s novella in Secret Thoughts: Erotique and Amie Stuart’s Hands On. Both beautifully and exquisitely written. And hotter than Vegas in the summer.
I understand f/f isn’t everyone’s thing but why is m/m more than acceptable and f/f treated like an evil perverted stepchild? I’m not going to say I’m straight, hell I believe in the right time and place any person is only as “straight” as their options. I just really appreciate how beautiful people are. Male, female, in between.
spam verif word: close48 😐
Am I the only straight woman in the world who dislikes m/m and likes f/f? I’m afraid it’s going to sound homophobic when I say that m/m squicks me out, but I genuinely don’t mean it that way. My mother and father having sex squicks me out, too. I think it’s just that it’s a bedroom I have absolutely no desire to be in. And I know they wouldn’t want me there, either – so m/m to me always feels voyeuristic, or even porny. Although maybe I just have unpleasant associations from high school friends who got into yaoi in a very shallow and objectifying way.
F/F? Now that sounds hot. Women’s bodies are fantastic. I would gladly read about women enjoying sex with other women. M/M, not so much.
I grew up in a rather sheltered household, with an Italian step-Dad, and a quite naive mother (who had never heard the word Blow Job, or understood what it meant until she was in her 30’s), where it was quite clear that I was never to be different. Despite this, I’ve grown up so, and am happily attracted to girls as much as I am boys. At the age of 28, I’ve been aware of my sexuality for 10 years now, and happily entertain myself with both M/F, M/M and F/F fiction. Not only that, I’m an avid reader of fan fiction (and I like M/M as much as F/F in that arena), and have been for over a decade now. I don’t understand, although I’m quite aware of it, the fact that many female readers who love M/M fiction can’t stand F/F fiction. Don’t get it.
I agree with Peaches, who said that the preference of M/M over F/F smacks of hypocracy, however it’s a personal choice. HOWEVER! If you’re squicked out by a woman’s body being caressed on the pages of some F/F erotica, I seriously hope that you have a similar problem reading a M/F sexual scene, which also writes about a woman’s body being caressed. I personally believe that it is the way that society has (a) sidelined (honest) discussion about the female body amongst females, and (b) treated M/M or F/F relationships. They’re more accepted now, but they sure aren’t STILL amongst sections of the community, who will support an indivdual’s choice, but will be horrified if their son or daughter choses thus.
I think it’s quite sad that F/F erotica is being so sidelined. Order it, and put it in the right section (NOT in a section on it’s own, chucked down the back somewhere), and stop being so squeamish about having authors sign in stores. You wouldn’t be squeamish if Sarah Waters were coming along to your city, would you.
Here’s another lesbo putting her 2c in.
I don’t want to seem like I’m picking on you, but unfortunately, this is a form of homophobia. It’s not at all like the kind where you think us queers are the spawn of Satan and deserve to burn in hell… but the assumption that us dykes would automatically be checking out a straight chick’s chest is a form of prejudice. I’m not going to lie and say I don’t occasionally notice attractive women, but I also don’t to ogle complete strangers, covertly or overtly. Just think – 5% of the women you encounter (at least) are gay or bi. Do you feel like one-in-twenty women is checking you out? I doubt it.
Getting back to the topic at hand, someone said they thought f/f erotica would be stocked in the erotica section because erotica supersedes any other genre. Not as far as I can tell: all the lesbian erotica I’ve found (which is probably different to straight-oriented f/f stuff) is in the gay ghetto in the bookshop.
Lesbian erotica is its own genre because of the avoidance of men in its universe. You can find plenty of mainstream erotica that has some f/f action… but you will never find lesbian erotica that has m/f action. Like many subcultures, the boundaries can get policed a bit more rigorously. I would hope, though, as more queer-tinged stuff finds its way into the mainstream, there would be a bit more relaxing of that boundary.
Having said that, there is a big cultural difference between queer-orientated fic and the straight kind. While I like reading some het erotica, I can get quickly dropped out of my WSOD by sexist bullcrap, manly macho posturing, submissive and TSTL behaviour, housewifery, babies, or battle of the sexes or mars/venus “humour”. I know I’m much less likely to find any of that rubbish in queer fic. There are other cultural differences – the HEA isn’t (generally) marriage, for example, and others that I can’t put my finger on right now – which means that the range of het erotica I read is going to be limited.
As for why (straight) women don’t like f/f content, I think it’s likely to be a combination of things that others have mentioned. Firstly, I think a disgusted reaction is definitely a form of homophobia or internalised misogyny. What someone said earlier about “knowing how a woman responds” typifies what many straights think about lesbian sex – that it’s all hand-holding, hearts and moons, and a bit of sweet cunnilingus. Try having sex with a typical butch sometime, and see just how much their responses are like your own. Hah, and there’s a cultural trope you’ll never find in a straight-orientated f/f scene. Of course most lesbians aren’t into butch/femme, but some of us still are, and there’s often a tinge of that element in many dyke relationships.
I understand a lot more if there’s a “meh” element about f/f scenes. I don’t see that as being any different to reading about anal sex – if it doesn’t work for you, a butt-fucking scene or two probably isn’t going to ruin your enjoyment of an otherwise hot book, but it’d be unlikely that you’d pick up Hot Buttseks Bounty III. And fair enough too. Some people mentioned about being squicked by “lesbian” porn – I am too!!! I refuse to watch lesbian porn; it’s vile. And incompetent (an example I made of what I’m talking about. NSFW!). And not hot in the slightest. I actually prefer watching gayboy porn – no sexism, they look fit, they don’t make that annoying ooh aaah sound, and I don’t feel like an object. I’m pleased to report most f/f written erotica is much better (other than that written on porn websites, of course).
I do hope the boundaries get a bit more blurred, and we have a few more f/f scenes (or even, OMG relationships) in mainstream books. One thing I like very much about the Kushiel books, for example, is that one of the protagonist’s major relationships is with another woman – in fact their interaction informs the entire story arc. More of that, plz.
Also, will nobody think of the bisexual women!? 🙂
You’re kidding, right? If I, a flaming heterosexual, don’t like to read f/f content, I either hate gays or I hate myself?
WTF?
How about…f/f doesn’t turn me on. F/f is not my personal preference. I’m not interested…end of story. I’m about the man and the woman. What’s wrong with that? Nothing, that’s what.
To be fair, f/f doesn’t disgust me, but it’s also not what I look for in good erotica.
I do get uncomfortable thinking about another girl hitting on me … being around girls is a comfort zone, a place where you can go and not be oggled. And for me, you take that away, make it a place where someone is just as likely to be staring at your chest as anywhere else, and I get nervous.
Funny you should say that. One time back in college, I was all tarted up in a corset for my school’s drag ball, and I was hanging out with a group that included my future boyfriend. It made me nervous that he was looking at my chest, so I went and hid in my friend’s room. She’s bi, and she ended up ogling my chest far more than he did! Yet somehow I still felt more comfortable with her.
I’m glad to hear people talking about girl bits being icky. I’m very self-conscious about mine. I don’t like them one bit, and that’s definitely a hangup.
I would hope most m/f/f menage type romances center around a bisexual women. I have often wondered how difficult it would be for a bi woman to be forced into a permanent monogomous relationship with either a man or a woman. Wouldn’t she always feel like she was denying a part of herself? My latest book, under consideration with my editor, explores this—I hope in a convincing way, although I could easily have gotten everything horribly wrong, lol!
I will agree that with f/f, it’s largely all about its intended audience. F/f written by men (or the visual stuff aimed at men) will get me hot, sure, but leave me feeling hollow and kinda in need of a shower. But the stuff written by women for women tends to affect me in a very deep and positive way. I think many women’s ideas of f/f are tainted by the scads of male-oriented material out there, and project those feelings of objectification onto all of it.
THANK YOU! I thought I was losing my mind, reading all of this, “Oh, we as women are trained to hate our sexuality/sexual organs/smells/etc.” No, I don’t hate my vagina. Just because I won’t let it out to play with other vaginas doesn’t mean I’m ashamed of it. It prefers to hang out with a different kind of crowd.
And I’m not a straight woman preferring to read about guys because I’m homophobic. The last time I checked, being attracted strictly to the opposite sex was called heterosexuality, not homophobia.
I love how the discussion veered away from “Is it wrong for this author to be discriminated against because she writes f/f scenes,” straight into “You have to want to read about women doing it or else you hate gays and also your lady parts!” If you don’t want to read it, it’s not your thing. If you don’t want anyone else reading about it, then you have problems.
I think that Trix was specifically talking about the strong ‘disgusted’ reactions, and not the people (like me) who are just not interested in f/f (or m/m, for that matter).
I mean, I personally don’t ‘get’ the appeal of yaoi, but it doesn’t repel me – heck, I even hosted a discussion group of it during a con and picked some up to have materials. It was an interesting discussion actually, because there was a few women and one gay man in the group, and I always wondered how gay men viewed yaoi, since it’s not written by or with them in mind.
Anyways, same deal with f/f – it doesn’t appeal to me, but it doesn’t repel me either. If a m/f romance had some f/f or m/m in it, I might skip the bedroom scenes, but I might not if they were well written – I dunno, I’ve never read one (except for one SF novel when I was really young, in Titan or something by…Frank Varley? something like that. It surprised me and made me feel uncomfortable at the time, but I’ve matured in the intervening 18 years…) And I wish there were more non-het relationships shown in romances – it would reflect reality a lot better. As long as it’s not the homo character = BAD thing, whenever I see it (quite often in older romances) it pisses me off.
December/Stacia…count me in as not excited over m/m. Lisa…come sit with me and December *ggg*
Anon I could hug you.
WORD…..I have nothing else to add. I think ya’ll have all said it for me.
And my verification word is BOTH39 😉
Paraphrasing for time:
I don’t think that’s how people are framing it. A few people seem to be getting upset at being labeled homophobic. I don’t think that’s going on. People do seem to be saying that a knee-jerk OTT reaction to lesbian sex/relationships indicates homophobia, not disinterest. If you don’t have a knee-jerk reaction, then don’t assume you’re being called homophobic.
/paraphrasing. And quasi-mini-lecturing. Hm.
Jennifer and Julie, I’ve been reading the same comments as you, and I’m not seeing that at all. There’s a big difference between not reading it because you find it “meh”, or you can’t get into it, or you just prefer other things, or even find it a turn off—and finding it so disgusting that one scene of it would color your entire reaction to an otherwise good book.
I think readers find it interesting that some of the women who consume m/m like it’s going out of style are the same ones who won’t touch f/f because they find descriptions of female parts—THEIR OWN DAMN PARTS!—squicky. No one here is saying that’s you. Christ, you’re allowed not to like the stuff. Just like I have no idea why D/s is so appealing when I find it kinda annoying and a turn off. Doesn’t mean I’d write off a whole book because it contained a bit of the stuff.
I don’t think that women who dislike f/f are repressed or homophobic, or that women who prefer m/m makes are “more heterosexual.” I’m straight. I like guys. Penises are awesome! I don’t think I could get any more hetero than I already am. But m/m doesn’t turn me on, and f/f doesn’t turn me off.
This has been an interesting thread.
Oops. Wish I could edit my post. The first sentence should be:
“I don’t think women who dislike f/f are repressed or homophobic, or that women who prefer m/m are “more heterosexual.”
I suspect that the idea of “omg vaginas ew gross get it away booo!” is a mentality that may be informing some of the newsletters and bookstores Zane cites who are refraining from hosting signings and allowing ads in their newsletters. So in that sense it is germane to discuss why penises are ok, but vaginas are not – but the idea that Zane is facing a battle to even promote the book, despite being a high seller, despite her books being stolen out of the library and the bookstores, despite demand for her erotic anthologies, she can’t advertise carpet-lovin’ hot women? What the shit? my understanding was that in all things, money triumphs. Is it possible that the almighty wang of profit is no match for the power of anti-lesbian or anti-vagina sentiment?
Jill: You should be able to edit your post. There’s an [Edit?] link right next to the time and date stamp of your comment.
I wanted to add a note here, even though I already commented already:
Someone mentioned that it seems like ‘a lot of lesbians’ are into m/m—to which I say that someone’s earlier assertion about how feminizing men in fanfic tends to be a common trend. This much is true: I’ve tried reading m/m before and … unfortunately I know too many men, and too much about male sociology, to buy half of the drivel that’s written about that kind of pairing. That having been said: m/m written by women is an immediate, horrifyingly fast turn-off for me. Even when it’s written by a man I almost never enjoy it, and yet most of my male friends are gay.
That having been said: I actually do discriminate in my fiction. A m/m interaction that’s overfeminized will make me put a book down immediately. So will buttsex.
This may be a complete non-sequitor, but I find it interesting that I’ve had this preference ever since I picked up my first erotica book. The only scenes that really got me going in the m/m category were interactions between guys who were *obviously guys*, and they were written by Clive Barker, who is an unrepetant flamer himself. The thing is, I realized that m/m written by women usually squicks me for the same reason f/f written by men does: it’s unrealistic and the portrayel is one that TENDS TO BE (but is not always) gussied up in some genderbent fashion that makes no sense (saying nothing of most male writers’ inability to understand that women don’t get off by penetration alone, a fallacy which is doubly unforgivable in female writers).
With f/f, I fought against being so enthralled by it by writing a lot of hetero material and focussing most of my energy on describing the woman involved—largely because that’s where my interests were directed. If there was too much focus on the male, I had to really, really, REALLY like the character for it to sink in, and even then I found myself skimming anything having to do with male masturbation and etc, unless the situation had an extra flare of kink to it (a female witness, perhaps?). Needless to say, I COMPLETELY understand a straight woman’s compulsion to avoid f/f, but I also think that it does have to do with the same reaction men have towards gay men, which is to say that there is definitely an element of homophobia amongst the ladies.
As it’s been said, preference counts for a lot, but I wanted to make a secondary comment so as to better illustrate that part of my own response to all this.
Amusingly, I was watching Will and Grace a whole lot none too long ago and found myself starting to flinch at the digs towards female genitalia and lesbians just because they were getting to be so numerous. Granted, Will and Grace takes digs at some of the fallacies in gay MALE culture as well, but it’s not nearly so cut and dry and usually by the end of the episode a pleasant face has been painted on it. So it’s not a matter of ‘is there more discrimination?’—there is no question. In the mainstream, as I said before, lesbians tend to get shit for their relationships being transitory or ‘less than’ anything involving THE ALMIGHTY MANHAMMER. So of course, women both straight and lesbian are going to be affected by this in one way or another.
http://www.bettydodson.com is a site all of you ladies should really check out. Not work safe!
Also: to the girl who said something about being ‘uncomfortable’ around dykes… I hate to put it so bluntly, but first thing you have to do is get over your ego 🙂 Just because a woman is into women doesn’t mean she’s going to be *into you*. So yes, I couldn’t help find that comment slightly homophobic and just shy of funny. I’m not trying to make fun, but really… I mean, we all laugh at guys who say the same thing.
I know I do, anyway.
I think that anti-lesbian/anti-vagina sentiment is more pervasive than people realize. And it’s disheartening that a National Chain would tell an author, “No, you can’t promote that here because our decent, god-fearing customers might be offended, but sure, we’ll still carry it, ‘cause hey, you’re a big seller and we’re still happy to profit from you.”
Trix, I just went and looked at your lolporn, and almost had to give myself the Heimlich maneuver I was laughing so hard! It perfectly showcases everything I hate about male-produced lesbian porn, and how they still manage to make it all about the penis.
Honestly, if this is what most women think lesbain erotica is, no wonder they avoid it.
This is one thing that annoyed me. Now I haven’t had anywhere close to a large enough sample yet, but it seems like they have to have a “feminate” man and a “masculine” one. I’m not saying couples aren’t like that or that it’s right to even label characteristics “feminine” or “masculine”, but it just gets a little annoying. Thanks for the Clive rec.
I’m so weird. While I’m liking the m/m stories (despite a few flaws), not big on anal sex at all (never a big on m/f anal either). So my question- what’s some good m/m romances that aren’t erotica?
There is a HUGE difference between going “f/f? meh.” and “f/f? EEEEWWWW OMG WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU?!!!21!!” And those of us who are gesturing towards internalized misogyny and, yes, homophobia are very keenly aware of this difference. If you’re not into f/f, so what? Don’t read it. I could care less. It’s the latter reaction that disturbs me.
Most people have already clarified much of what I was getting at earlier (couldn’t participate! Was on a plane for seven damned hours), but I do have two other things to add.
First:
The penis vs. vagina thing has already been addressed, but I will add that I know it’s true just for network prime time. “Vagina” is not considered an appropriate term for that audience. Cable may be different.
And breasts are not genitalia. They’re not. Women’s breasts are adored and fetishized. Women’s *genitals* are stigmatized. THAT’s what I’m talking about. Penises will garner you an NC-17, but a bared vulva that’s visible to the camera? No way that would even fly at NC-17.
Second, I don’t know if you were intending to do so, Wry Hag, but this:
just proves my point.
Why is there squick factor in slippery folds, but not in “man seed” spurting all over the place? (The most disgusting thing I have EVER read in any piece of erotic (though I’d say this was anything but) fiction anywhere was the phrase “ropy strands of cum.”)
I’m not saying you should like f/f, but I am saying that finding descriptions of women’s genitalia squicky is a fundamental part of this internalized sense of girls = unclean.
Oh, and let me throw in my voice with the “straight woman who loves f/f” crowd. I also enjoy m/m and threesomes and m/f, so…I guess I just have very catholic tastes. 😀
NO NO DO NOT WANT.
This is one thing that annoyed me. Now I haven’t had anywhere close to a
large enough sample yet, but it seems like they have to have a “feminate”
man and a “masculine” one. I’m not saying couples aren’t like that or
that it’s right to even label characteristics “feminine” or
“masculine”, but it just gets a little annoying. Thanks for the Clive rec.
‘Sacrament’ is the main book Barker wrote that has a lot of gay scenes, one of which is between two *older* men, one of which is described as not particularly hot, but I found myself really enthralled by the interactions which actually had me in an identity crisis for a moment there *laughs*. There’s a HUGE amount of homosexual content in that book (as well there should be since the lead character is gay) and I couldn’t for the life of me put it down, which is totally rare for me.
‘Imajica’ has a lot of genderbending in general, and homosexual overtones on BOTH sides of the fence (Clive can write as much f/f as he wants, I’m totally for that). ‘Coldheart Canyon’ has a wide array of gender pairings and is beautifully written in concerns to the hedonistic scenerios.
He does explore some squicky material in both, but his erotic works are so intense and outright beautiful. That man can seriously turn a phrase.
Otherwise: You’re right. The sample you’ve got is pretty much the basis of a lot of fanfic and fiction overall. I am all for male characters exploring their sexuality, but honestly, I have to see inclination first, and turning them into a woman in a man’s body—I may as well be reading about women, you know? So in the end, it’s worth repeating that I realize that my aversion to m/m is thanks to the target audience *being* women, and most women needing something to relate to in the characters. It just so happens that the parts turn them on at the same time.
It’s just ten times worse when authors feminize a character that is CLEARLY a tough guy without trying to be ironic about it.
Wow. This was a really interesting thread, and one about which I have a lot to say.
First of all, I identify as bisexual, and primarily read M/F or M/M/F when I’m reading romance. I would *love* to read an F/F romance, if I could find one that wasn’t just a short quickie story and which had depth. I got hugely, hugely into uber-Xena fanfiction around the time I was coming to grips with the fact that I wasn’t as straight as I’d always figured. (Uber fanfiction, in this context, refers to writing stories about original characters who, in this case, happened to physically resemble Lucy Lawless and Renee O’Connor.) My favorite of these stories was B.L. Miller’s Accidental Love, which you can read here:
http://blmiller.net/room/romance/accidental1.html
If memory serves, this story is about as explicit as your typical mainstream romance.
Anyway,I wish I knew where to look for stuff like this that I could buy, because there are obviously a few of us out there who would read it. I also write romance reviews on another blog, and would go out of my way to read and review F/F books if (1) I knew about them and (2) I could get ‘em in e-format. So obviously I wouldn’t be the sort of reviewer who’d pan a book because of a one-paragraph scene.
All that being said, I agree with a comment someone made earlier. The F/F I *have* seen and read did feel porny. They were quick scenes, and in one particularly egregious case, the F/F stuff was mostly so that the virginal heroine could get primed and ready for a man. The entire time she was fantasizing about the book’s hero, and so the scene felt really exploitive to me.
Is it weird that I’m actually more okay with the “ropy strands” than with the word “cum” spelled that way? I mean, I have used “come” in reference to the products of both male and female orgasm, and it looks fine to my eye. But “cum”? Bleh.
Me, too! “Cum” jars my internal editor and screams porn, not erotic.
I’m a straight female, and I do love me some well-written smut. My husband also enjoys the side effects. 😉 I don’t have an extensive collection of romantica or erotica, and have yet to pick up anything with a f/f scene, so I can’t say if it does or does not do it for me. But I’m thinking that if it’s well-crafted, it’s gonna get the motor running, regardless of my real-life experiences – same as the m/m, f/m/m or BDSM stuff that I’ve previously enjoyed. How the words are strung together is going to be more important than the body parts in question.
Feeling79: Oh, I could definitely be feeling it.