So here is a six dollar question:
On one hand, you have me musing that poor and unprofessional behavior on the part of some authors could in fact drag down the entire genre, and such behavior ought to be discussed because if I have one WTF question about the community of romance, it’s “Why on earth do so many people act as if writing romance is akin to joining a social club? It’s a business, for fuck’s sake.”
And on the other hand, or the other side of my arse, depending on your point of view, there’s Karen, and Jane, and me, all asking at varying times, “Wait, why can’t authors criticize their publisher? If the ground is supposedly saturated with the crazy sauce, and a publisher or publishers are acting in a manner that can only be described as unprofessional, why can’t an author speak up and say so?”
The question is this: where is the middle ground? Is there one? Where does professionalism end and self-preservation as a small business owner begin? Or vice versa?
Take us for example. We’re an LLC, so we’re a small business. One particular small press has asked to buy two advertisement spaces from us, and asked that we design those ads. I’ve done so, both times, and received neither confirmation that the proof was accepted, nor response as to when they would like the ad to run. My requests for payment were left unanswered, and my email requesting a response, any response, hello…Bueller? Bueller? have gained me nothing except time wasted and fees lost.
Since it was small potatoes in more than one sense, my elected option was and is to not do business with them from this point forward. But should I announce to all and sundry (sundry, for the record, is such a tart) that this press seems to have screwed me over? Maybe it’s a miscommunication, or maybe the URL in my email landed me in the SPAM filter, or maybe they took the ad that I designed and used it elsewhere. How the crap do I know? I don’t. So I sit and wonder.
So where does professional behavior begin and end? Is it professional of me to gripe about this press by name and say “authors beware!” since I think my experience speaks volumes as to the professional behavior of this press? Many writers will probably comment and say, “YES WE NEED TO KNOW! Our livelihoods depend on accurate information in a rumor-laden industry!”
And others will say, “That’s your business and it reflects poorly on you to make it public in this manner.”
Every time certain presses are discussed online, and it happens often with a few of them, authors email me and confirm the rumors being reported, revealing their own problems while begging that I not reveal their names, as they fear retribution from those publishers that would damage their careers. And then, on the flip side, there’s author behavior that is so breathtakingly bizarre, and not in a good way, that one wonders if anyone in the publishing end of things notices, if it has any career-based effect in the long term, or if it even should. Somewhere in the middle there are authors who speak out on their blogs about how upset they are regarding some publishing decisions. Sometimes that plays out to their benefit; sometimes it makes them look like they regularly aim firearms at their own toes.
How does one criticize one’s publisher and do so in a professional manner? Is that even possible? And on the flip side, is it ever ok to say, “Holy shit, your behavior as an author makes us look bad, and I so wish you’d shut the hell up?” Where is that line?
I am not published, so I can’t really say anything sensible about publishers’ behavior, but as far as authors go…. No one is perfect, and some of us are odder or more dramatic than others, but if an author is plagiarizing, or out-of-control on Amazon, or behaving in an unethical or erratic manner, then I think it needs to be brought to his/her attention. Quietly, at first, by her agent, or editor, or friend or spouse, but if this doesn’t solve the problem, then it might take greater or more embarassing exposure to get this person to change her behavior—which exposure will doubtless follow as a result of that person’s actions. I’m sure that Ms Edwards and Ms McGillivray were none too happy at the public discussions of their actions, but sometimes that is what it takes. I’ve had a couple of those unpleasant moments in my life. I wouldn’t relive them for the world, but they got me where I needed to go.
As a published author I’m a contractor at Ellora’s Cave. I write books and submit them, I get a contract. That contract is for a time period. Some of these contracts are for a very long time period…I joke that my kids will be earning money from some of my EC titles in the distant future.
Even if I were to stop writing altogether I’d still be considered by them “one of their authors” and be on their author loops. There are about 300-400 authors in that position at ECPI which is a lot of people to keep track of, particularly when the names given keep changing.
My feeling is that if I were to take a job at another company and be in the position to take advantage of the information my old company told their authors it would be prudent of me to tell my old company about my new job and voluntarily resign from their loops if they felt it wise. Otherwise it can look like I’m getting all my great marketing ideas from my old company.
But I have trouble playing anything but a lawful good character in DND, too.
The question has still not been answered—what nature of information is being shared on author loops that any other publisher could possibly take advantage of, especially in light of the fact that authors publishing for multiple companies could, I imagine, simply e-mail a quick titbit to their editor who is in a “position to take advantage” causing the spectacular collapse of various publishing empires leaving the One to stand alone, immortal?
I guess it’s a good thing I didn’t complain about Samhain’s marketing manager to my fellow author pal JC Wilder LOL? Not that there’s anything to complain about (see, you get paranoid, crickey). I can’t keep up with stuff, nor do I really want to. If you throw multiple identities in there, eesh.
If I can bring up the “T” word, I think I was the last person at Triskelion to know that the publisher was one of the authors, with whom I occasionally exchanged rants. Fun, huh? I think there are cases in which nondisclosure is immoral, frankly.
This is a) assuming one believes the story that is circulating that EC didn’t know about Wilder’s position, and b) assuming that Wilder thought they DIDN’T know (if it wasn’t a secret to begin with, I don’t know why she’d feel she needed to point it out, in other words). Also, if her Samhain name is her legal name, isn’t that the name she’d be signing contracts and copyrighting her books under?
More importantly, though, I totally second what Arethusa said here:
To me, the real story here is not Wilder getting ousted from a loop or two; it’s that there seems to be a very weak boundary between EC management and its authors to begin with, which makes it less believable to me that EC didn’t know who Wilder was relative to Samhain (why wouldn’t information flow both directions?) and generally unflattering to EC as a professional publisher. If Wilder’s position is a conflict of interest, IMO so is it for EVERY author or editor or publisher who occupies another position with any publisher.
I doubt there is any vital information to be gotten from an author loop that editors and agents haven’t shared over lunch or drinks with each other already. Publishing exists on gossip.
Let’s take a real example. Before the Daytona Beach RT it was clear we needed far more goodie bags for the Ellora’s Cave party, like 800 and not the 400 we did the previous years.
Nice goodies are expensive when you have to buy that many of them and are a poor starving author. Liddy Midnight comes up with a great idea. Playing cards that will have a different book cover on the face of each one. Done in bulk, art work done in house, this costs about $100/author and we get thousands of them made to hand out at BEA and RT.
Authors are privy to this because we were participating in it. However we are told to keep it quiet so it is a surprise at the convention and even more that no one else uses the same idea. Sure someone could have broken the silence but as far as I know, no one did.
You equate playing cards with professional behavior?
Man, news spreads everywhere.
It’s as clear as it can be why EC booted Wilder off their lists and it has nothing to do with her working at Samhain.
The thing is, EC hasn’t denied this. IMO, they don’t need to deny or confirm anything to any of us. We’re all just outsiders looking in, not owed explanations by anyone.
But because of how a few select EC authors are reacting, it’s a thread that won’t die, and instead grows with supposition – most of it bad, most of it aimed toward EC’s behavior.
And I will never understand what super-sensitive inner-circle can’t-be-shared information is on an author loop full of admittedly gossipy authors that would be at risk by Wilder’s association with Samhain.
It’s all nuts.
Lori
Which would include Wilder, yes?
What I don’t think you’re understanding, Janet, is that all of those authors published by other entities were in the same position Wilder was in as far as secrecy and possible betrayal over conference goodie bags go. Right? If X publisher wanted to put on a similar venture all would be stuck with the higher cost and have to decide whether or not they would keep code or pony up the dough.
That’s about the worst example you could choose because it highlights Wilder’s position at EC as an author among the many and not an executive/potential double agent from a different outfit. It’s information that authors would normally be privy to and the publisher would understand that such persons are typically involved with myriad other publishers when such information was given out. There is no “AH HA!”
Wait a minute: isn’t, by giving this real rather than theoretical example, leaking this sensitive information out to every ebook publisher around? Who needs double agents? Edit: Or I’ll assume you simply chose this as a mild example in lieu of the more daaangerous info. 😉 My bad.
I think that, bottom line, an author is a business and should be held to the same standard as I would hold ANY publisher, be they small, vanity, or a huge like Harlequin, Avon, etc. That is, you (whether writer or publisher) adhere to the terms of the contract. This basic fact, to me, extends to all creative work.
Soft-skills aside, the basis of business is an exchange of some sort and accompanied by either an explicit (contractual) or implicit (handshake/“gentlemen’s agreement”) agreement of terms. The minute you sign a contract, you are committing to a business relationship. You are bound by deadlines, you are promising to deliver something.
Harlan Ellison’s rant against all the amateurs pulling down the writing business had a lot of good points. Professionals understand that they are engaged in a business relationship and transaction. Being a professional and acting accordingly doesn’t preclude friendship or the creative aspect of writing.
I view authorship in a similar light. You sign a contract and are paid. By most measures, by accepting payment, you are a deemed a professional and should be held to those standards. Someone is taking you seriously enough to invest time and money in you.
Blogs are a part of the public forum. I agree with la Nora:
If you are unhappy with a contract, the way you are treated, etc., make notes if you need to of the behavior you will not put up with, bitch to your friends, and find another publisher ASAP. It isn’t easy, but it’s honorable, and you will know that you handled yourself well.
If the publisher refuses payment or acts deliberately against the contract you signed, then by all means take action, but be a little strategic. Take notes. Contact your agent, talk to lawyers, etc.
Okay…so EC ‘borrows’ from the Got Milk marketing campaign and makes Got Sex it’s company marketing promo one year.
Now EC, with no qualms about borrowing marketing campaign ideas from the dairy industry, is worried about it’s very own authors stealing market ideas from it’s very own author loops?
What tail wags this dog?
Too strange.
Too funny.
I’m shortening your quote on the second paragraph and taking it out of context, Janet.
My reason for doing this, is that you stated if you leave a publishing company they can still consider you as one of their authors. Is this the same for the business world that you mention in the next sentence? No. You leave a company, you aren’t still considered an employee of that company.
I’m not sure how the NY publishers view this. Vicki Lewis Thompson (whom I adore) left St. Martin’s for another publisher. Does St. M’s still consider her one of their authors? MaryJanice Davidson (who can make me laugh my ass off) just left her old publisher for St. Martin’s. Does her old publisher still consider her one of their authors?
I just can’t see it. They’re no longer in the publisher’s “stable” of authors. They wrote books for those houses, and they will continue to sell, but I don’t believe they’re considered their previous publishers’ authors any longer.
I am not one of my previous publisher’s authors. I am not on the loops. I am not in their “stable” of authors. They continue to sell my books, but I no longer write for them. I have one publisher and one previous publisher.
Once I was on those loops, and, well, it *is* super-sensitive and… you said it.
I love Google. You’re right. Check there and if you can’t find it, go to the source.
IMO, there’s a crucial difference between the publisher and the author: the publisher is a *business* and the author is not.
No. An author who sells his/her work is running a small business. Ask the IRS.
A smaller business than his or her publisher most likely but still a business.
In fact a good many authors are incorporated.
I didn’t say if I left a publishing house. I said if I stopped writing. Not quite the same thing. I know people on the loops who haven’t written anything new in a very long time but they are still there so they can take advantage of promotional information for the books they still have up. Up until about two months ago I was still on the Zumaya publications author loops because I still had one title with them. Now that my contract is up, I’m off their loops.
I’m not an employee of ECPI or Zumaya, or NCP for that matter. I’m a contractor. An author at a house is a contracted person, not an employee.
The author loops are where we talk about plans to promote our books at that house. I will take advantage of that information to promote my books at that house. I won’t share it with another house because that would be wrong.
Look folks, I’m not trying to say JC is bad and EC is good because that is no more true than the idea that JC is subject to sainthood or that EC is the evil empire. Nothing is ever that simple.
I guess I’m confused. Maybe what I’m not getting is as long as an author has a book with a certain publisher if she chooses she can consider herself one of their authors by remaining on the loops, even if she doesn’t write for them anymore. It is different. I honestly don’t think a St. M’s author would stay on the author loop if she chooses to move on to another publisher. It’s just . . . different.
You mentioned now that your contracts are up with Zumaya you’re off their loops. So how is that different? Just that you chose to leave? If you chose to stay on the loops you would still consider yourself one of their authors?
Just curious. I’m really not on your butt about anything! I guess we’re just looking at things from two entirely different perspectives.
HOLY INKWELLS, BatGirls! perhaps it’s a good thing I’m no longer part of the biz. An author is a business? Well shut ma may-oth,
I’m not a fricking business. I’m a person. And while I understand utterly what conundrum these 57 posts are getting at, it is my divine bitchy opinion that we’re all getting way too darned serious about this *stuff*.
Blog or don’t. Bitch about your publisher…or don’t. You’re in the spotlight now. Deal with it, _your way_, and suck up the consequences. There is far too much time being expended on bullcrud and it will all be yesterday’s news in about five hours.
Rosemary is entirely right. We are running a business and have to fill out all the appropriate forms come tax time. I’m an LLC.
God, I am so procrastinating this damned office work. I’ve got to start a rewrite and I need to get this done. But now for the whine: I don’t wannaaaaaaaa!”
My word is like36. Yeah, right. As if I’d ever like filing and office work.
Note: Author as small business has much office work to do!
Huh.
Weird stripes…the acceptance form no. like. me.
Ah, Chey, but I like having you on my butt. (okay, not really but let’s lighten things a little.)
Actually I was on the Zumaya authors loop because I never left even though I was writing mostly for EC and NCP. One day I realized I wasn’t getting loop messages anymore and at the same time noticed that my book wasn’t for sale at Fictionwise. I asked about it and was told my contract had expired. Since I’d already asked for the rights back on the book this did not make me unhappy.
When my contract expired with Echelon I stopped getting Echelon emails. So sure, you could say I was “booted off those loops without notice” but I had no business being on them once my contracts expired. No big deal.
I am on the NCP loops and the ECPI loops because I have books with them that need promoting. Since there is no conflict of interest there is no problem.
For the outsider looking in, it appears EC ditched Wilder from the author loop because she said things about what happened at RT.
Now the everybody can argue back and forth as to whether or not that is true. Doesn’t matter one bit. How did it look to readers? Or authors like me who consider subbing to EC. I’m seeing people believing EC did it because Wilder talked, not because she’s employed by Samhain.
It doesn’t look good.
Is this a Blind Item?
Are we supposed to guess at this dodgy publisher?
And what’s with the sudden aversion to owning up?
That’s just the point—it is different. With small presses and epresses, authors are often expected to do the lion’s share of promo for their books. They should have access to the author/marketing loops for as long as their books are being sold by that publisher—regardless of whether they’ve moved on.
And with authors writing simultaneously for multiple presses, an activity that is hardly frowned upon in the epub world, you can’t expect them to be denied resources because they have books out with other companies.
As I said before—until EC actually comes forward and says otherwise, all of this is conjecture substantiated by one person’s account of events, and none of it is reflecting positively on EC. You’d think they would want to put out the fire—unless they figure any publicity is good publicity…
Yeah, Shayne, I can see what you mean. Thing is that authors often say things that are negative about their publishing houses in public forums. Or less than complimentary things at least. I suspect if you look about you can find lots of examples. If EC kicked an author off the loops every time that happened, there would be a lot fewer authors on the loops.
Also the general public wouldn’t know about someone being booted unless they said something. After all, why would you know unless someone made a big deal out of it?
I have seen a big part of the problem as “the loops.” I know in my own case I never would have said a word publicly had I not been told that the publisher was absolutely, straight-out lying on “the loop.”
That was also behind a lot of the recent Amazon dust-up, too.
Not belonging to any of “the loops” I have come to the conclusion that I would rather eat dirt. Honestly? This is how people behave? Pretending that it’s all “just us, so keep it quiet” and expecting nothing to leak???
That’s about 97 different facets of stupid. Of COURSE your authors are telling people “off loop” what is said “on loop.” Of COURSE you’re going to get caught lying, cheating, or being a general asshat.
<—fruit loop free zone
But it’s so much fun!
That still doesn’t quite go with what I’m (very badly) trying to say. If the author is still promoting books with the publisher they aren’t writing for anymore, then yeah, I agree as far as staying on the loops.
E-publishing world is… God, how could you describe it? It’s as if because the books are electronically published, that opens them up to criticism you don’t hear about print publishers. (I’m sure there are exceptions.) But e-pubs get hit the hardest with blog rants, as if they’re not worthy of the same respect as NY print publishers.
Maybe it’s just that they have to earn that respect. I can think of a rapidly growing e-pub that you hear little if any rants about—IMO they are gaining that respect the NY pubs have. Certain other e-pubs don’t have that same kind of respect even if they’ve been around twice as long. (Thrice even?) One e-pub that’s been around a very long time now keeps stepping in the **** pile and that makes it harder for them to gain that same respect.
My word is “feeling” and the stupid old song “Feelings” is now in my head!
LOL!!!
So quick question. I understand a lot of people had problems at the convention. Like me you’ve been to a number of these. For me this was one of the best, in spite of the issues with the hotel.
I mean I could focus on the negative, like the fact it took three tries for me to get a room with two beds in it since my daughter was joining me. I had to haul stuff all over the place and I was hauling a lot of stuff. At one point I think I had a bag in three different rooms.
I took a bad fall on Wednesday at the Bar and Grille and pulled a muscle bagging 800 bags for the EC party so on Thursday I was walking wounded. But I still spent three hours helping to decorate for the Faery Ball.
So sure, I could focus on that and blog about it. But instead I remember the fact that the hotel staff did what they could to fix things. Like they opened up the doors to a hidden stairwell and put up directional signs so we could more easily move between the ballroom and lobby levels.
I got out and mixed with a lot of people, laughed and rolled my eyes a few times during some of the antics that I did see, sold quite a few books at the signings. I enjoyed the Faery Ball so much I’ve upped for next year already.
Am I the only one who had a good time at the convention?
OK. Officially confused, here.
I notice earlier, someone was taking about a St Martin’s loop, as if there’d be one. I don’t write for them. I write for Harlequin. And to the best of my knowledge, we don’t have anything like that. We have loops, of course. But the one I’m on is author only. There is no publisher input. They can’t hear what we’re saying, so they aren’t going to bust in and tell us how to act, or throw us off if we say something they don’t want to hear.
How about other print pubs? I know there are loops, but are they publisher sponsored, and monitored, or are they just the authors, chatting amongst themselves?
Or am I just totally freakin’ clueless? Because I was under the impression that the reason you hear this stuff with e-pubs, and not big, print pubs, is because print pubs do not have an analogous communication system. They are too busy doing other stuff to watch over our business communication, and get all hurty if we say something mean.
Thank you, Lorelie! I was once trashed on a friend’s blog (she posted a very bizarre, rambling rant), and she couldn’t understand why I didn’t want to hang around her anymore. Honestly, what did she think would happen when she posted that? Friends like that, I don’t need.
Blogs are public, and pretending they aren’t is a bit disingenuous.
As far as the publishing industry goes…if you have issues with your publisher, try to deal with it privately. If it’s a contractual problem (things like “my publisher doesn’t love me” isn’t in this category; things like “they’re not giving me my royalty payments” is), and they’re unresponsive, and you’ve tried to deal with them reasonably, and you have documentation to support it, then I can see going public with your complaints. Other authors would need to be warned. But again, there’s a big difference between whining about personal problems and alerting others to legal issues. The latter I can see; the former I can’t condone.
And posting again, because I love this comment. My personal take is that the publisher and the author both are responsible for the finished product, because as I reader, I don’t care where the fault ultimately lies. (I just picked up a newly-published book by one of my few auto-buy authors, and while I enjoyed it, it’s also the only book of hers that I’ve read that had serious editorial issues. It bugged me enough that I sent an email to the publisher asking who I could speak to about them.)
Another blind item, anyone?
I think most of us did, Janet. It’s usually the negative that comes out, overshadowing the positive. It’s too bad, but that’s how it seems to be. At least IMO.
Hey, I get 43 points in my answer!
I guess I didn’t quite connect the dots in that way. You’re right, those NY pub author loops are private and not controlled by the publisher. These e-pub loops we’re talking about are controlled by the publisher. I doubt (but don’t know for sure) any of the NY pubs have loops where the editors and TPTB are watching over the conversations authors have on a loop they own.
I’m confusing myself, so don’t feel bad if I’m not making any sense.
Ha! I got who21. Who is watching over these e-pubbed authors but Big Brother. Or Big Sister.
I really need a nap.
Nah. We see it all the time with this pub which is why they are such popular fodder on blogs.
I thought much the same thing.
If I have issues that pertain to my writing career, I take them up with my agent, and I bitch about them with a very small handful of very close, very trusted friends. I absolutely do not blog about them.
If I have issues about anything else, then it falls under Nora’s creed: If I could say it in public, I could blog about it. If it would get me fired or arrested or committed if I said it in public, I change the names to protect the innocent and write a short story. 🙂
And FWIW, I had a blast at RT.