I’m still trying to wrap my brain around all the thoughts that this article from MSNBC shook loose regarding women who undergo surgery to reattach their hymens so that they can be virgins again. Jane sent me the link and her reaction mirrored mine: EAAAAAUUUGH!
Since then my brain has been gnawing on the issue, and forcing me to examine my own horror. Why am I so squicked? And under what circumstances would someone want to surgically reattach their hymen? I can understand wanting to reclaim one’s own virginity if it was forcibly taken away by rape or assault, and I see the necessity when women are subject to honor killings should they dare have sex outside of sanctioned wedlock. But investing external value into the presence of a hymen such that one might pay a surgeon a good amount of money to reattach it for the pleasure of someone else… I don’t get it.
I also thought about and went back to re-read Candy’s and my discussion about virginity in the romance novel and how it’s a powerful and sacred construct affecting both heroes and heroines. But would a romance heroine be believable if she had her hymen reattached?
The surgery itself raises a lot of questions that I’m still puzzling over, not the least of which is how important virginity is in and outside of our culture. Outside of RomanceLandia, is losing your virginity important, and would you want it back? Me? No, thanks.
The balm to my what-the-fuck so far has been this interview series with the creator of The Virgin Project, a comic book that details individual’s experiences losing their virginity. Pages from The Virgin Project are making their public debut at the Seattle Erotic Art Festival Gala. Man, do I ever want to go to Seattle. If any of you ladies see the exhibit, please do let me know what you think!
R. said: ‘WHO draws those lines? That question remains unanswered.’
That is no different from any other kind of social imperative in a given society. It would be a combination of tradition, general (majority) social opinion, and law. Much of what all of us accept as ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ arises from what we might call majority belief in a given society at a given time.
There are many rules and regulations that are so ancient and so universal that they crop up in most societies, like close-incest taboos. Laws against murder are also pretty universal – with exactly the same exceptions, such as war and self-defence.
If you are old enough to have seen major changes take place in the so-called moral law, you will know how complex the process is.
I agree with those who said that intense concern with outward appearance is a symptom of a problem rather than its cause. I suspect that there have always been people who have obsessed about physical perfection, having, prsumably, nothing better to think about, but in the past, surgical alteration was not available as a ‘treatment’.
I think I have two problems in communicating with some of you: I am much too old, and I am a foreigner. I therefore observe some of this in purely anthropological terms, and nobody likes being looked at an an anthropological specimen. I have to say, though, I am hugely encouraged to learn that so many of you find the idea of the reconstruction of the hymen ‘icky’, and also understand that it does not equate, in any way, shape or form, with virginity, which is itself no virtue, but merely a bore.
AgTigress, this is probably a little late, but…as a woman who at one time possessed a perfectly natural pair of 44 DDD+ breasts (since then I’ve lost numbers but not letters), I can’t say I much appreciated the suggestion that they were of ‘grotesque proportion’. They’re just big and they’re what came standard; I’d like to think no one looks at me and my sizable, natural rack and thinks ‘grotesque’, though I suppose someone out there does.
Hello other members of the Old Virgins Club. 33, go me—oddly nice to know that I’m not the Last American Virgin, though in all honesty I don’t understand why that’s such a problem for people, nor why they would suggest mental illness as a reason why…
Oh and look, I even get a pun-worthy screen word for my very first SB comment: man49. Maybe it’ll be that long : )
PA – if size 44DDD is what nature has provided, then no, it would be very wrong to describe it as ‘grotesque’, and I did not mean that at all – but in any case I apologise (44D here, by the way).
However, if a woman whose natural endowment is of the order 34B, to replace that with something very, very much larger can look grotesque, because the overall design is then out of balance. It is a matter of aesthetics and context, not a simple issue of ‘big tits good, little ones bad’ (or vice versa, come to that). All are, in general, good, but in my view they should not be messed about with unless there is a genuine health issue.
On the issue of ‘who draws the lines’ again, could I point out that many who have posted here are instinctively drawing their own lines. Other people’s lines are always easier to see than our own. The acceptance of some forms of surgical enhancement or decoration has been supported, I suspect, as a ‘personal choice’ by some who have condemned the recreation of a spurious virginity, because they are in sympathy with current trends in body-decoration, but out of sympathy with the idea of virginity as a ‘gift’ to a partner.
We do all draw these lines, and time, social mores, age, nationality – any number of factors – will move the lines. Most of us have rather flexible moral standards, when one gets right down to it – and that is as it should be, because human communities cannot function well where the rules are too rigid and immutable.
It is like the old joke about the man and woman who meet on a train and get into conversation; after a long talk, in which they get on well, they get into a discussion of moral principles, and the bloke asks, theoretically, ‘would you sleep with me for £50,000?’
She laughs – the idea is ludicrous – and says, ‘w-e-l-l, I probably would!’
‘For £5, then?’, he asks.
‘Certainly not! What kind of a woman do you think I am?’
‘We’ve already established that’, he replies; ‘now we’re just haggling about your price’.
Can we count ourselves as anecdotal evidence that reading about sex does not make one indulge? I was 24. Same as smartmensab-tch—no reason, just no one I wanted to have sex with until then.
And of course revirginification is ridiculous.
Snark – I so wish I had known about that (surgical removel of the hymen)! I always thought I was a freak for wishing for it, since no one around me ever mentioned the possibility. I didn’t care that much about actually having sex (not for religious reasons, I think I’m a general late bloomer), but being able to use a tampon would have been nice.
I also had one of the ‘tougher’ kinds, lasted through years of riding horses and sports, and man, some major pain and stress could have been avoided had I known to ask my doctor – or if my doctor had been thoughtful enough to mention it to me, since I’m sure they knew…
Has anyone here read VIRGIN: THE UNTOUCHED HISTORY? Very interesting study of the concept of Virginity in a variety of Western cultures.
I wish it had covered eastern cultures more (like a previous poster, I studied medieval Japan in school and loved how unconcerned with the topic that culture was!) and I was never able to buy the “explanation” of “ensuring paternity.” Why the hell would that ensure paternity any more than locking some girl up in a dungeon whenever you weren’t having sex with her would? How often was she going to get pregnant the first time anyway, and as long as she had, say, her period, right before she started having sex with her husband, you could be relatively sure she wasn’t pregnant by someone else. And how do you know she isn’t schtupping the other men in your household? It just doesn’t make sense.
If I were a man in a society whereby continuance of the paternal line was of utmost importance, females were chattel, as well as in a time period where the main cause of female mortality was childbirth (and they often took the babies with them), I would be more interested in marrying a woman who had proved fertile and capable of bearing healthy children. I’d get myself a woman who had had babies, and I would lock her up until she had her period, thereby making sure I was not responsible for raising anyone else’s brat. Why wasn’t that the paradigm? It makes a lot more sense to me.
It’s also horrifying, but no more horrifying than the paradigm they went with, and it would have been more useful, IMO.
I am not against the existence of this surgery given the “honor killing” situation in Africa and the Middle East. But I don’t know if anyone thinks a surgery makes you a virgin again. Recommitting yourself to abstinence makes you chaste, not virginal.
My current book deals very heavily with virginity and various concepts of it, and so topics like these are fascinating to me.
So, when does this support group begin and when will the weekly sessions be held?
Hate when people makes me feel as if I am a loser when I am more successful than I thought I’d be at this age.
plane35? No, just turned 29…
R. said: ‘WHO draws those lines? That question remains unanswered.’
That is no different from any other kind of social imperative in a given society.
That doesn’t make it ‘right’—or any clearer.
It would be a combination of tradition, general (majority) social opinion, and law.
‘It would be,…’
Sounds like you’re trying to visualise a utopia. A utopia, by its nature of being based on ideals, is subjective. Your ideals and mine are in obvious conflict. Any solid reasons why I should toss my ideals aside in favour of yours?
Much of what all of us accept as ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ arises from what we might call majority belief in a given society at a given time.
This is the same argument that lead to and perpetuated:
wife-beating [not only being legal, but encouraged by Victoria Regina herself]
child-labour
slavery
the Inquisition
honour killings
land grabs
And that list just goes on and on.
Pogroms use that argument as justification for objectification, exploitation, oppression, persecution and genocide.
There are many rules and regulations that are so ancient and so universal that they crop up in most societies, like close-incest taboos.
That ‘taboo’ has failed to protect females and males—of all ages—to this day.
Laws against murder are also pretty universal – with exactly the same exceptions, such as war and self-defence.
You don’t watch or read the news, much, do you?
If you are old enough to have seen major changes take place in the so-called moral law, you will know how complex the process is.
From what I’ve been reading here, it’s likely that I’m older than you.
I agree with those who said that intense concern with outward appearance is a symptom of a problem rather than its cause. I suspect that there have always been people who have obsessed about physical perfection, having, prsumably, nothing better to think about, but in the past, surgical alteration was not available as a ‘treatment’.
‘…prsumably [sic], nothing better to think about,…’? Man, that’s condescending.
I think I have two problems in communicating with some of you: I am much too old, and I am a foreigner.
What is that—a disclaimer?
I therefore observe some of this in purely anthropological terms, and nobody likes being looked at an an anthropological specimen.
Yes, I do not look kindly on being reduced to an object. And you know what? I don’t know anyone who does.
On the issue of ‘who draws the lines’ again, could I point out that many
who have posted here are instinctively drawing their own lines.
Any valid reasons why they shouldn’t?
Other people’s lines are always easier to see than our own.
[Careful, there—it’s unwise to presume to speak for others.]
I see my own lines quite clearly—it’s a matter of knowing oneself.
We do all draw these lines, and time, social mores, age, nationality – any number of factors – will move the lines. Most of us have rather flexible moral standards, when one gets right down to it – and that is as it should be, because human communities cannot function well where the rules are too rigid and immutable.
On the grounds of my personal sovereignty I will remain rigid and immutable.
Keep your lines—and your ideologies—off my body.
Dear me. I do seem to have touched a nerve.
Thank you so much, snarkhunter, for bringing this subject up. Sign me up for the virgins support group too. I’m 23, and the absolute last of my girl friends yet to have sex. I’m not in the slightest bit religious, I’m not waiting for marriage, I don’t have any real hangups about relationships or sex. I simply haven’t met the person I care to share myself with in that way yet. That’s the only reason.
I think for the vast majority of (American) women, sex is a Huge Deal until they’ve had it, after which it promptly becomes “Dear god, what was all the fuss about.” And I’m sure they’re right, but for those of us who haven’t gotten there yet it remains a Big Deal – something that a lot of women seem to forget. That’s wonderful that you feel comfortable sleeping with whoever – yay! sex for everyone! – but no matter what friends urge I can’t just hop in the sack with someone, because I’m not at that stage of ease and experience yet.
I’ve never judged my friends for their sexual choices; they’re free to do as they like. But in return I ask that they do not judge me for mine. And not having sex, or waiting however long you want, is as valid a choice as having it.
I think what bothers me most is this idea that you’re not a Real Woman until you’ve had sex. That no matter your age or accomplishments you’re still some naive little girl. (If someone says to me “Oh Karen, you’re so innocent,” one more time, I swear I’ma punch somebody.) I think sex & intimacy are an important part of life experience, yes. But anyone can have sex. Doing the Deed does not automatically elevate you to some stratosphere of mature, responsible adulthood.
For me, I know it will happen when it happens, and I don’t feel any shame or pressure except when other people make me feel that way.
You know, Karen, sex wasn’t the only thing I waited until my 30s for. I didn’t get my first kiss until I was 31, and if that doesn’t make you feel like a total freak…
It wasn’t like I was a prude or anything. I grew up with a free-loving hippie for a mother and made my first attempt at writing erotic romance when I was 14—a gothic paranormal where the 16yo master of the house astral-projected himself between the young governess’s legs at night. (Sadly, all the pencil lead rubbed off the notebook paper before I could finish it.)
And it wasn’t like I didn’t have opportunities. In high school, I went steady with a boy who was nutty about me, but every time he held my hand, I felt like the cat trying to get away from Pepe Le Pew. There were plenty of other times over the years when I could have kissed someone, and believe me, when I hit Sweet Thirty, I sat down and tallied them up and kicked my own ass for letting myself wind up like that.
But then I met Mr. Robin and I knew the minute I looked into his eyes that he was the one I’d been waiting for.
So that’s the reason I write erotic romance—to give hope to late-blooming virgins like me. The heroine in my debut novel Alien Overnight was a 33yo virgin and none too happy about it, but she got what she deserved in the end. 😀 The end of the book, I mean. Well, and the other end, too, but that’s another topic altogether…
Robin…it’s like you’re me from the future!!
I like to call myself a Virgin-with-a-capital-V, b/c I’m still waiting on my first kiss. *grin*
Smart Bitch Therapy is the BEST kind.
Dear me. I do seem to have touched a nerve.
Indeed, you have.
You’’ve your opinions, and your right to express those opinions. I don’t argue that.
However—
In voicing those opinions—regarding another adult’s extremely personal choices that will not affect you in any manner—particularly when you couch those opinions in terms of they ‘should not be allowed’ or they ‘should not be permitted’, you are bound to push buttons.
Sorry to have ruffled your feathers. That’s life.
;-D
Aww, I didn’t get my first kiss till I was 21, and I felt weird enough for that! It’s so wonderful to have found My People.
Like you, Robin, it wasn’t like I didn’t have plenty of opportunities for kissing, but for whatever reason I always held off. But when it’s right, it’s right, and it happens on its own.
Agreed that Smart Bitch Therapy is the best.
Wow, can I just say, once again, the level of discussion on this site is high quality. You ladies absolutely awe me.
With that said, here’s my stance, for what it’s worth:
1)The idea of re-establishing the hyman, personally, makes my eyes roll. I had, probably, a middling deflowering, in that it was painful and blooddy-but not excessively painful or bloody. But it was highly uncomfortable and I wouldn’t want to go thru it again. But if someone else wants to, then that’s there decision. I would agree that the ADVERTISING of said service is squicky and has some serious underlying issues, but…advertising. meh.
2)I was 20 when I went out and deliberately got deflowered. I was just tired of that albatross around my neck. The guy who did me the favor was very nice and did a bang up job (pun intended). However, I believe it was more terrifying and traumatic for him, than for me. He said he’d never sleep with a virgin again. Poor guy-he was a trooper. Like some others here, I never associated sex with love. Maybe that had to do with hanging out with boys more than girls, but when I was younger (I’m 34 now) sex was just sex. Now, I’m on the other end of the spectrum, so only want to sleep with someone whom I have affection for and who has affection for me. That equals a 3 year sexual hiatus for me, which doesn’t seem to be coming to close any time soon.
3) I have to go with R. on this stance. I think any person has the right to do TO THEMSELVES anything they want to. They do NOT have the right to do stuff to OTHERS. And yes, that includes suicide or euthenasia. Myself, I was all over that cellphone tattoo. I’m all over the idea of being able to completely reinvent the body, whether with mechanical or organic parts. But for those that disagree, I have to ask: what’s the line then? We cut our hair, we cut our nails, we excercise, we add makeup, and dress in clothing. All of those things are NOT natural. Every day, every one of us makes changes to our NATURAL person. So, what’s the difference between a trim, and a pube trim? Between dying hair and tatooing? Between donning clothing and adding boobs? From my point of view, it’s all the same. It’s the purposeful changing of the natural state.
4)From the non US bloggers, I’m interested in what other differences you have noticed between US peeps and non US peeps; and are Canadians more similar to us or less similar? And for you Canadians, do you run into the same issues about femininity that we do, here in the US?
I’m done. whew!
result77: I hope I get 77 responses!
Umm… I was too chicken to admit it before, but… I’ve never been kissed* either. And I was considering whether to ‘fess up. This thread is psychic.
On the original topic: I’m freaked out both by the born-again virgin’s quote about how her husband “deserves a whole person” and by the “re-wrap it” ad copy on the website. But I think if someone wants the procedure done, that’s their choice.
* Speaking of which, lame as this may be, the Drew Barrymore movie “Never Been Kissed” always does kind of make me feel better.
You can get the book, the Virgin Project here!
http://www.artofkdboze.com
It was printed up just a week ago, and turned out awesomely. Check it out!
Man, another book to add to my TBR list 😀
In regards to the line of what is and isn’t (or what should and shouldn’t) be allowed, personally I think if you want to do something to your body permanently or temporarily because you like how it looks/feels or want to express yourself, great. But I am dismayed when/if certain things become expected – like perfectly even and white teeth, a boob job, Brazilian waxes…I don’t think any of these is expected of me, but I wonder if teenagers think they are because of how they’re treated in popular media.
And what about other things we do when we’re young (I mean before or during puberty)? Actions such as cutting yourself (I think when I was a teenager they called it self-mutilation). I had friends who did it, and not because (or at least not that I know) they were messed up, but because it was somehow cool to do so and it said something about them to other kids. Where does this fall along the personal expression continuum? ‘Should’ that be allowed? I didn’t think it was bad when I was that age, but I look back now and wonder why we thought that was a good idea, and I’m sure a lot of adults would think it was dangerous(although I don’t think anyone permanently scarred themselves).
I don’t know where I draw the line for things like that – on one hand, it is my body and I should be able to do whatever I want to it. On the other hand, a lot of things that we do when we’re young, we regret once we’re out of the hormonal stage, especially if it’s permanent. Should there be an age restriction on things like this?
Actually, I think there should be. Especially for things that change the shape of your body, because when you’re a teenager, you don’t really know what your body will be like when it’s mature. Even your face changes during adolescence.
Then again, your body changes throughout life – it develops, matures, ripens, then…er…starts to sag (sigh). Who decides when the cutoff point for each stage is, and which stage is OK for altering? Maybe the decision should not hinge on physical development, but emotional maturity – when we are recognized as adults (18 here in Canada), we should be allowed to do whatever we want to our bodies, because at that point we should be able to judge and decide for ourselves what’s right for us.
Wow, sorry for the huge ramble!
[…] are Canadians more similar to us or less similar? And for you Canadians, do you run into the same issues about femininity that we do, here in the US?
In my opinion (raised on the West Coast, which is granola-munching, tree-hugging Commie central [and I mean that in the best way] so my views are definitely biased to the liberal side), Canadians are less prudish than Americans, though we’re also more prudish than Europeans. I mean, gay marriage is legal in Canada (my 60 year old grandmother said when it was legalized: “Finally!”), whereas it’s this giant issue in the US of A where there’s this hugely Puritanical mindset.
For example, sex education in seventh grade showed up how to put on condoms properly and dispose of them properly. Sex education in tenth grade consisted of the different types of condoms available (flavoured, french ticklers, etc) and a contest to see which teams knew the most slang words for male and female genitalia. There’s not really as much of a hang-up on chastity and virginity in general (though I’m sure there is individually).
Hmm, mostly rambling and disjointed but hopefully I answered part of the question.
I worked at SEAF this year, in the store, and I swear I rang up more copies of The Virgin Project than any other item there. (except maybe the catalog, but that was only $5) And I met some of the people who were in the book.
You should come to the festival next year!
Snarkhunter – I agree with you. I think it’s sad when people need to put down others’ choices in order to feel better about their own. Have sex or don’t have sex, whatever you want, but it’s your choice, and you should decide it for your reasons, not because other people shame you into it.
There’s a really awesome book called the Body Project that has a section about how the value placed on a woman’s virginity has evolved in America. I don’t think there’s anything in it about the reconstruction surgery, but it does talk about a lot of what’s been posted.