From AztecLady, a link to a superb interview with Suzanne Brockmann about her son, his coming out, and her knowledge from when he was a toddler that he was gay. Speaking of Brockmann, if you won a copy of her book and you’ve read it, please let me know what you thought?
That is an absolutely awesome interview.
And now I don’t feel quite as crazy for thinking my pre-schooler might be gay. 🙂
She’s such an inspiration. What an incredible woman and mother (and author)!
I knew Jason was gay when he was three. I just knew. He was such a funny, gentle, special little kid. Like most little kids, he was completely asexual. And yet I was pretty darn sure that when he grew up he’d identify as gay
Translation: The kid was freakin weird man! I knew something was wrong so when he told me why we kept catching him in bed nude with his friend Billy and drinking all that designer bottled water I just knew that had been the whole problem from the beginning…
Sorry, that is what came to my mind.
I’m a bad gay pig.
I’m a bad gay pig.
Posted by Teddy Pig
>>>>
I’d say you deserved to be spanked for that comment, but I’m afraid you might like it
Teddy’s got a point, though. It did read a little strangely to me. Brockmann said she has “a huge problem with all stereotypes – not just those regarding gender” but she also says that she realised her son was gay because
He was such a funny, gentle, special little kid. Like most little kids, he was completely asexual. And yet I was pretty darn sure that when he grew up he’d identify as gay
Maybe she didn’t mean it to be read this way, but it’s certainly possible to interpret that as meaning that she assumed, on the basis of his being funny and gentle that he’d be gay. Which in turn would suggest that there’s a stereotype she was accepting about gay men being gentle and funny.
I keep telling people there are gay garbagemen and gay plumbers and gay janitors and no one believes me. I blame Queer Eye!
I admire Brockmann tremendously for her open and supportive attitude. But I do wonder, from reading this and other interviews, whether she might have been a bit over-enthusiastic, especially when her son was small. What happened to letting your kids know you love them unconditionally and then letting them decide for themselves? Although enthusiasm is certainly better than condemnation.
And do gay men HAVE to be sweet, gentle and artistic? Is it written somewhere that all gay men must love show tunes and musical theater?
Won it, read it, loved it. It’s a bit sickly sweet but as an addendum to Jules and Robin’s arc it worked.
I don’t read Brockmann anymore, but I read the Jules book (All Through the Night). I enjoyed it, but I’m not sure if I thought it was a great book in and of itself, or if my enjoyment was just based on getting to see Jules have a HEA. I read the book where we were first introduced to Robin—Hot Target, I think—but skipped the next one that featured Robin. From what I hear, there was something bad that happened in the interim book that made some people feel that Robin was not the best bet for Jules. But since I missed that book, I’m blissfully unaware of the details. To me, Robin seemed utterly committed to Jules (and vice-versa), and I enjoyed their story.
Yes, but all gay people love Barbra Streisand and will fight to the death those who would oppose her.
I love Suzanne Brockmann and I thought the interview was very moving. Jules Cassidy is one of my favorite characters of all time. Haven’t read All Through the Night yet but Hot Target and Force of Nature were awesome! I don’t mean to be a Pollyanna, but I think the snark is a little harsh.
I’ve been a pretty steadfast Brockmann reader for years, but All Through the Night disappointed me. It was Too Too Precious and turned Robin and Jules into That Precious Gay Duo that remodels their bathroom and twinkles at each other all the time. At least in the prior books, there was serious angst to give it some passion, some oomph! In ATTN, they’re happy and there’s only offscreen sex, so all the chaste simpering was just…not my cup of tea.
It was nothing a little what what in the butt wouldn’t have improved! 😉
That’s a great interview. I don’t think it’s stereotyping to recognize that there are differences between gay and straight people any more than it is to recognize differences between genders. We (should) all have equal rights—I know we don’t, yet, but that’s the goal, I hope—but that doesn’t make us all the same, thank goodness.
I never understood why some people are threatened by the happiness of other people. Someone else’s joy does not “pick my pocket, or break my leg…”
Reading ATTN now, great characters, good story.
I never understood why some people are threatened by the happiness of other people.
Patrick, I have no idea where you got the impression that anyone who’s posted on this thread feels “threatened by the happiness of other people.”
I don’t think it’s stereotyping to recognize that there are differences between gay and straight people any more than it is to recognize differences between genders.
So what did you make of Brockman’s opinion that much of the differences between the sexes is socially constructed/reinforced? She said that
Our society is FILLED with gender stereotypes—we are bombarded with them from early childhood. What do we say when we meet a little girl? “Oh, aren’t you pretty?” Why don’t we say “Oh, aren’t you smart,” instead? What are we teaching here, people?!
It perplexes me that we can’t just let children be children. Because I had both a daughter and a son, we had an array of toys from dolls to cars to dress-up clothes to baseball mitts. Both kids played with everything.
Patrick, I have no idea where you got the impression that anyone who’s posted on this thread feels “threatened by the happiness of other people.â€
Sorry, that comment wasn’t clear, it was directed to people who are opposed to equal rights for gays, not to anyone here.
So what did you make of Brockman’s opinion that much of the differences between the sexes is socially constructed/reinforced?
No doubt that’s true, nurture plays a huge part in our development, as does nature, but that doesn’t negate the fact that there are differences between genders just as there are between individuals. And, again, thank goodness for that.
Just in response to Patrick, above:
I tend to think that there are more differences between individuals than there are between sexes. Every ‘men are from mars, women are from venus’ stereotype has at least ten thousand exceptions. And thank goodness for that. 🙂
That interview just makes me want to hear from her son, Jason.
I think Brockmann’s intentions are good, I like her books very much, and I really enjoyed ATTN. (It actually made me laugh out loud a couple of times, which doesn’t happen that often with romance.) But I just gotta ask: If the kid was “asexual” then what about him made her “know” he was gay? She seems to be promoting the idea that “gayness” is not about sexuality.
I’m really not trying to be disingenuous here. I’m just pointing out her own assumptions. What she decided to do about them might have had positive consequences for her son, but it seems she still has/had preconceptions about masculinity and sexuality.
Just like all of the rest of us do.
I don’t think it’s stereotyping to recognize that there are differences between gay and straight people any more than it is to recognize differences between genders.
Patrick, apples and oranges here.
The differences between men and women are usually based around the physical plumbing.
The differences between a gay and a straight man are only based on sexuality. To imply there are other things such as behavior traits is based completely on opinion or prejudice and not on any scientifically documented evidence I am aware of.
Does anyone else remember the “Friends” episode with Phoebe’s “gay” Canadian, figure skating, husband. Everyone, including his parents, assumed he was gay his entire life and he eventually had to “come out” as straight. Think maybe Brockmann has one of those conversations in her future? Probably not, but that is what I was thinking as I read this interview. I don’t want to gloss over how wonderful it is that she is so supportive of her son, but it does seem a little premature to label a toddler as gay OR straght.
Perhaps I can be accused of being Ms Brockmann’s fangirl here, but.
Personally, what I read in her interviews, articles, book dedications, etc. about her son, his coming out, the changes in her (and her husbands and family, friends, etc) attitudes is this:
She had preconceived notions, became aware of them, and opened herself to different notions. By doing that, she made it easier on her son (and, I would imagine, her daughter) to accept himself for who he is—whatever that one turned out to be.
I hope I have done half as well with my own children.
(First off, let me say I almost considered signing out before posting this next thing. Not because it’s mean or snarky or whatever but because I am completely exposing myself as a Brockman-stalker-in-training.)
I couldn’t read it if Brockmann got down and dirty with the Jules and Robin scenes. Because as much as she denies it, elements of her son went into the character. Why do I say this? There were a few little things that tripped my radar as I read along in the various books but there was one paragraph in Force of Nature that made me set down the book for a minute. (This is the stalker part) I watched a video on YouTube, posted by Suzanne Brockmann for her son. It was this little stuffed “attack hippo” in various poses. In FON, Jules is trying to get to sleep and begins thinking of his mother and how they’d play with an attack hippo.
So my very long winded point is graphic scenes with Jules would squick me out ‘cause it’d be like it was written by his mom.
She seems to be developing Adam as a character. I wouldn’t mind seeing what what with him. Wouldn’t mind in the least. 🙂
If I remember right, there’s a message/acknowledgement to Jason in one of the books – something about the fact that he skipped instead of walked, danced instead of ran? Gah. May have to go home and look, it’s now bugging me.
When my son was 3 years old, he asked his dad if he liked girls in bathing suits. (Asked while he was watching his older sisters friends in the swimming pool). My husband said “Yes, I like girls in bathing suits. Do you?” My son enthusiastically nodded his head and said “Yes, I like to give them hugs.”
We figured that our 3 year old son was probably not gay. Your sexual orientation is an inherent part of you from the beginning. SB was right in that if you are paying attention, it isn’t hard to see it in even very young kids.
If the kid was “asexual” then what about him made her “know” he was gay? She seems to be promoting the idea that “gayness” is not about sexuality.
I didn’t take it that way. I thought she was just clarifying that, at three years old, he wasn’t checking out guys. He was asexual because at that age, kids aren’t aware of the assumptions they make or the questions they ask with regard to sexuality. But they DO ask and they DO make assumptions, and these rather innocent explorations are inherently tied to their pre-wired sexuality, but as toddlers they’re not going to act on them by kissing or whatever. That’s what I assumed about the “asexual” comment. For what it’s worth.
“But I do wonder, from reading this and other interviews, whether she might have been a bit over-enthusiastic, especially when her son was small. What happened to letting your kids know you love them unconditionally and then letting them decide for themselves?”
It took me a while to figure out what confused me about this comment. I think that you’re presuming she could have made her son gay by exposing him to gay role models or by being too enthusiastic about dance and the arts.
This is as erroneous and dangerous as believing one can train a man or woman to be a heterosexual person.
Teddy Pig said:
“The differences between a gay and a straight man are only based on sexuality. To imply there are other things such as behavior traits is based completely on opinion or prejudice and not on any scientifically documented evidence I am aware of.”
There might not be any scientific evidence, but how often have you heard gay people say they “knew they were different” even as children – even before they knew what sex was? What about the other end of the spectrum? When people who discover they are gay in their early 20’s, and come out only to have all their friends go “Duh! We knew that!” even though the gay person had always dated/fucked as a hetero?
I live in a very gay friendly area and there are heaps of gay people around here with kids from their first hetero marriage, so there’s obviously more to being gay than who you fuck, because these folks will tell you they were ALWAYS gay, even when they were sexually active as heteros. There are many different aspects to gender beyond what gets rocks off.
Eggs,
I am a gay man. I knew I was Gay from the moment I knew what Gay was. Which by the way is about sexuality and THAT IS ALL!
Are you implying that knowing I was Gay made me act different? That I acted in certain ways that should have alerted everyone to how I was Gay.
Are you saying that all Gay people are effeminate, is that what you are talking around? Are you saying that is how to tell the Gay guys from the “normal” guys see if they have a lisp and like to dance?
No Eggs, the implication that all Gay men behave a certain way and like certain things is in and of itself a form of prejudice and it is insulting.
Oh and to be fair there are Lesbian fashion models now. Let me tell you it took forever to hide their Birkenstocks and teach them to walk like a Drag Queen.
Bought it, read it, liked it, which is not always the case with her stuff. Not a huge novel, but lots of action & emotion. IMO her best since Hot Target.
Teddy, this lesbian has never worn Birkenstocks. In fact, I’m such a bad butch, I don’t even have a pair of blue jeans or a white tank-top. I am teh FAIL.
With modelling, I’d rather have some good out-there queens strutting their stuff than those anaemic stick figures who slouch around the catwalk – while some people might observe that queens are often not shaped like “normal” women, well, neither are fashion models.
As for “knowing” you were queer from an early age, I sure as hell knew I was different. I was a tomboy AND I had unseemly crushes on my female friends and teachers. The two don’t necessarily go together, which is why stereotypes fall down so often. It just so happens I fit the most common stereotype. My gorgeous, skirt-wearing, stiletto (shoe) wielding, long-haired kick-arse g/f does not.
My nephew appeared gay pretty much from when he was about three. I endeavoured to insist to the rest of my family that “effeminate” does not necessarily “gay” make, but with the example of butch dyke Auntie Trix, that didn’t fly very far. Now he’s nearly 17, and it seems that he actually is gay. Damn those stereotypes! 🙂
I’m of the opinion that often times you can just “know” about a person’s sexuality. And no, it’s not about a lisp or liking to dance or loving Broadway or knowing how to decorate. It’s about body language and the unconcious way we appraise people of both sexes and interact with them. The way a person looks at the opposite sex and either does or does not evaluate them. “Gaydar” is about your ability to catalogue the myriad tiny clues that people give off, whether it’s on an unconscious level or not. And yes, there are some people that gaydar doesn’t work on and I’ve found that they’re often people who have so perfected their social mask you can’t ever truly tell what they’re thinking. (A skill I very much envy sometimes ‘cause I can’t hide anything. It gets me in trouble.)
When this kind of discussion comes up I always think of my Godfather. He’s about as non-effeminate as you can find. A big guy, wears a moustache, has worked with various law enforcement groups and one of his favorite places in the world is the shooting range. When it came time to wrap presents or pick clothes we always joked that he was a failure as a gay man and I was a failure as a teenage girl. Yet there would never be a doubt in my mind that he’s a proud gay man.
Okay, Lorelie, you got me on the stuffed attack hippo bit. I really wouldn’t want to write sex about a character modeled after my kid either.
But still, watching Stan and Teri or Kelly and Tom or Sam and Alyssa bang on every flat surface while Robin and Jules fade-to-black… it’s odd. Sure, it’s more palatable to an audience that may otherwise shun Teh Ghey, and it’s sweet and it’s Christmas-y, but I’d actually rather have 2 more books of angst.
Brockmann’s really good at angst. I can’t even count the number of times her books have ripped my heart out of my chest. But the HEAs…? Not so much.
Security word: “every69.” Bwahahahahaha.
Regarding stereotypes: I was a tomboy growing up. We moved into our neighborhood when I was 4. I had short hair, wore jeans and t-shirts and played all the “boy” things with the boys in the neighborhood. I hated pink and lace. I didn’t play with dolls. On the first day of school my best bud B. wanted to walk to the bus stop with me and my mom (he was a year younger). When we showed up at his front door he took one look at me in my first day of school dress and said “Tracy, you’re a GIRL!!” He was shocked I tell ya!!
And, well, I was boy-crazy from a young age. I’m completely hetero. I guess I blew that stereotype out of the water huh? LOL
Like Trixie said above, some people do fit stereotypes. Stereotypes became stereotypes for a reason. However, that doesn’t mean that we should see stereotypes as truth. That’s where we get into trouble.
I love hanging with the butch dykes. We get to own our corner of the bar, wear leather and look scary and they know all the hottest butch guys.
Having read much longer descriptions by Suz of Jason growing up, it’s obvious (to me, at least) that she thought Jason might be gay from the way he acted (skipping and, as she puts it, “swishing” from an early age, writing a fan letter to Bette Midler when he was eight and framing her reply, etc.), and if she was right, wanted him to be comfortable with himself. She didn’t “push” him into being gay, she didn’t assume that the stereotypes were right, but if they were, she wanted him to already know that he was loved, no matter what. She would have accepted him just as much if he were straight, but wanted HIM to accept him if he were gay. I think that’s fucking admirable, personally.
And I know I’m doing the same with my 7 year old son, who adores his ballet, tap, and jazz classes (as well as his soccer classes), has a limp wrist when he runs, and a lisp even when he hasn’t lost most of his front teeth. I don’t “know” that he’s gay—he’s seven, for heaven’s sake! But I know that if he is gay when he starts figuring out his sexuality, I’ll have done everything that I can to make him as comfortable as possible with himself and about coming out to us. Not because I’m pushing him into being gay, but because I want him to know that I accept him for himself no matter what.
And as someone with one of the other unusual sexualities out there, I KNOW that I was kinky way before I realized it. I KNOW that it’s something that always been a part of me, even when I was “asexual” as one is in childhood. Finally being aware of my own sexuality now (and it is a sexuality for me, an identity, not just something I do when I have sex), I’ll look at stuff from my childhood (paintings/statues I liked, things that I did with my friends, songs that played again and again), and I finally understand why I liked them so much—because they reflect the sexuality I didn’t know I had until I was 25. This is not something I learned at 25 and thought was kinda cool, nor something I chose—it’s who I am, and I’m sorry, Teddy Pig, it affects way more than who and how I fuck. It’s an integral part of WHO I AM and how I act all the time and what I respond to in my environment and it did even before I recognized it for what it was.
I think taking any label that society uses to differentiate be that Gay or Latino or Doctor and making that ALL about who you are as a person is a dangerous thing.
People use that against you all the time and you are more than that label and I know I have spent years fighting those preconceptions. Plus quite frankly I hate guys who focus on one aspect of who they are and thats it. Every movie, every album, every thought is devoted to Gay this or Gay that.
I am not saying that being Gay did not influence other parts of who I am. I am saying I am more than just my sexuality.
She didn’t “push†him into being gay, she didn’t assume that the stereotypes were right, but if they were, she wanted him to already know that he was loved, no matter what.
Right, but what about all the gay children who don’t fit the stereotype? I mean, shouldn’t we all be encouraging all children, regardless of which stereotypes they do or don’t fit, to know that they’re loved and will be accepted regardless of their sexual orientation?
If we just tell the tom-boy girls that it’s ok to be a lesbian, and the sweet little boys who skip that it’s ok to be gay, where does that leave the more traditionally-feminine lesbian girls, and the traditionally-masculine gay boys? Will they miss out on the early messages about accepting their sexual orientation?
And what does it say to the sweet little skipping boys who aren’t gay if they get the message that everyone thinks they’re gay because they’re sweet and skip? I was often told at school that I was a lesbian because I had short hair and spoke up in class. I knew I wasn’t a lesbian (I’d fancied boys since I was 5) and although I knew there was nothing wrong with being a lesbian, I didn’t like the way they were stereotyping me (or lesbians, for that matter).
So I think there can be dangers in taking action like this only when someone fits the stereotype, rather than having a general policy which would be applied to any and all children.
I have debated jumping back into this one because, frankly, Ms Brockmann has been accused of having “rabid fangirls†often enough without me reinforcing the stereotype.
On the other hand, it is about stereotypes, isn’t it?
So let me posit that stereotypes exist because a substantial subgroup of people behave in a distinctive manner. Substantial subgroup—doesn’t mean all, it doesn’t even mean the majority of a subgroup. It does mean that we—society at large—see a particular behaviour from a particular subgroup more than we see other behaviours. (I am Mexican, so I’ll use my particular subgroup as an example) So if 20% of Latinos behave a lazy bums with coarse mouths and poor hygiene, it really doesn’t matter than the other 80% are spread over the spectrum of behaviour, does it? A person will assume that, because two out of every ten Latinos s/he sees behave that way, that that is the way the majority of Latinos behave.
As Sarah Frantz and Patrick have said, when an individual behaves obviously different than what is the societal norm—whatever that norm may be—it pays to take notice.
As far as karibelle’s comment with the Friends episode comparison… isn’t that akin to saying that you can make a gay person straight if you just assume all his/her life that s/he is straight?
I agree wholeheartedly with Laura Vivanco that
Sadly, many parents are not prepared to accept their children’s sexuality if it deviates from the norm in any way—kink, gender identity, what have you. Because of that I doubly appreciate Ms Brockmann’s example in showing her children that, no matter what, they were loved. It is a start.
Azteclady,
Ummmm no. I guess you haven’t seen that episode or maybe I didn’t explain myself. In the show the character in question had exhibited stereotypically gay behavior since he was a child so he was assumed by parents, friends, and eventually himself, to be gay. He had essentially never been given the chance to be straight. When he could no longer deny his attraction to women he had to “come out†as a heterosexual. I am not saying that is what Brockmann did. It sounded like she did make allowances for the possibility that she could be wrong. I am just saying her situation reminded me of that show.
I try not to make assumptions about a person’s sexual preferences. I do understand that certain behaviors and/or appearances are often indicators of a certain preference, but not always. I have two best friends, both women. We have been close since high school. One of them has short cropped hair and dresses a lot like Ellen Degeneres. She rarely wears makeup and I doubt she owns a dress or skirt. She has been very happily married to a man for 12 years. My other best friend has long flowing blonde hair, and a weakness for expensive make-up, mani/pedis, and floral prints. She is a lesbian. More than once when the three of us have been out having dinner or drinks together, gay women have approached us to flirt with Amy and left with Tina’s phone number. One actually left with Tina
. So I suppose even gay people make these assumptions on occasion