I am well aware that there are people in New York who often think they are the center of the universe. I joke that New Yorkers much of the time are trying to live up to their own hype every time they step out the door.
So I’m going to sound like one of those self-absorbed New Yorkers when I ask this question, but when has sounding like a doofus ever stopped me!? Never!
I’m working on an ARC of a book, and the author keeps referring to teams and locations in New York by their full names: La Guardia Airport. The New York Mets. The New York Islanders. The characters are all New Yorkers, so the full names thing yanks me out of the story.
No one talks like that in this area. Folks would say, “La Guardia,” “the Islanders,” or, if they were Yankee fans, “that other team.” But it’s assumed common knowledge that the team location is New York. Heck, even if the team is in Jersey, the implication is New York.
But even then, growing up in Pittsburgh, we had “dem Stillers,” (the Pittsburgh Steelers), “de Pahrrits” (the Pittsburgh Pirates), and “the Penguins.” When you’re IN the place, you don’t need the location when referring to the sports teams – and Pittsburgh only had one airport so it was “the airport.” In New York, there are at least 4 airports you could possibly fly into, and let’s not even get started on the fool who decided to name two cities across the river from one another “New York” and “Newark,” especially considering the regional accent of the folks who LIVE here. And to have TWO Penn Stations? One in New York and one in Newark? It’s like an enunciation nightmare, I tell you.
Anyway, back to my question. If you’re writing a story, do you err on the side of “Maybe the reader won’t know what I mean” and explain place names and team names fully, even if it yanks a more local reader out of the story a bit and makes the characters sound overly formal? It’s not like it’s a big deal, but it definitely occurs enough that I notice, and I wonder about it. What do you do, and if you’re a reader, how do you react?
I live in Boise Idaho and have never been to NYC (I’m not totally provincal but never been to NYC). I know what LaGuardia, the Mets (as opposed to the Met)and the Isles are. Heck, I’d even know what the author meant if she referred to Steinbrenner’s baseball team as the spawns of satan.
I live in a small town in Georgia and even I know where and what. When things and places are described this way, it kind of loses its naturalness (is that a word?) and fluidity.
PS – This is my first post!!!!
I’m not a big sports fan nor do I travel extensively, but I could still recognize the sports teams and airports of most major cities in the US. (I’m from NY/NJ so in this instance the point is kind of moot.) I think that was way overkill…but at least she didn’t refer to JFK as the John F. Kennedy Airport. Or did she?
Hey SandyO, small world! I’m in Nampa! And yes, I too know what “the Mets” and “La Guardia” are when I read them that way. I am like Sarah in the fact that if people in a book aren’t speaking like they’re from the area, it sounds weird.
Hell, I live near Taranna, and I know who The Islanders are. I’ve never been to The Big Apple and I know the difference between The Mets and The Met.
In Toronto, the larger venues change their names so often to reflect corporate ownership, we hardly know what to call them anymore. The Air Canada Centre is the ACC, and the CN Tower is just The Tower. However, what used to be the Skydome has now become The Rogers Centre. Ugh.
I just finished a book and it was set in the DC area and the locations were a little off and where ppl lived etc. It threw me out of the world she built many a time. I ended up skimming the end of the book b/c i was fed up with it. I found it annoying since I like some research done.
For Harlequin, I err on the side of explaining (because if I don’t the eds will put it in for me), but that mostly means saying ‘Red Sox’ rather than ‘Sox’ and ‘Mass Pike’ rather than ‘the Pike.’ Even then, I try not to overdo it, because readers are smarter than that.
For the upcoming single titles, I just write it how I ‘hear’ it in my head and trust the reader to interpret. As a reader, I far prefer an author who gives me credit for having some frigging brains and an ability to interpret in-context.
As a side note, one of the most jarring things for me is when a character in a Boston-based book or TV show (Crossing Jordan does this regularly) talks about taking ‘the three’ or ‘the ninety-three’ to get places—using ‘the’ preceeding a road number is a California thing!
Word verification: island97, i.e. where I’d like to be right now, sitting on my butt with an umbrella drink!
I’m a country snob I guess….I usually try no to read ‘big city NYawker’ stories. Yes, we in fly over country can look down our noses a bit too and we don’t feel a dab of envy either. I just feel claustrophic I guess…I can’t fathom why anyone would want so many people around them and stay sane.
I live in the woods in the boonies of Georgia. (Run outside in my underwear to feed the chickens…THAT’s how rural). And no, I wouldn’t have a clue as to what they were talking about in NY as far as sports teams go. I also wouldn’t really give a rats ass either because don’t watch sports so I’d figure it was local color etc. As long as it’s not ‘the’ story, I usually let it slide.
However, since I live in an area steeped in history (I can trace my relatives back to the 1700’s) I really enjoy stories where the author does tell and explain such things—- it adds to the story. Especially local legends etc. For us, it’s the Swamp Fox (country store and revolutionary hero), Ridgeland (where everyone used to go for a quickie wedding) and Tiger Ridge (erm, isolation and inbreeding at its worst—Think the Peacocks of the X-Files), cane grindin’ season, sand gnats and ‘dem Yankees’ ain’t a sports team 😉
Don’t assume. I like being told things again, if I already know it, I skim through it.
I actually read a Kleypas story this week that had a window into NY of the 1800’s and it was a fun read! So yeah, give explanations, I appreciate them!
I guess that it really depends a lot on how well known the setting is—I’ve never been to NY myself, but like many others, I get the difference between the Met and the Mets. Plenty of popular tv shows have made these locations fairly well known, after all. For less well known locations, some help would be appreciated.
However, I’d rather that formal names—if necessary—appear in the narrative rather than in dialogue or inside a character’s head. Because, really, natives rarely if ever think or speak full names of places around the corner.
Of course, if I’ve never been to the place, nor heard of it, how would I know it’s the full name, yes?
A quandary, indeed.
I just finished a book and it was set in the DC area and the locations were a little off and where ppl lived etc. It threw me out of the world she built many a time.
I had to stop reading a book a few months ago that described a character ascending steps to exit Central Park at 60th Street.
Central Park is level with 5th Avenue at that point. Pretty much at all points, though I haven’t been to every entrance and exit.
Nit picky? No doubt. But it yanked me out of the story damn fast, and it was such an easy thing to look up that I had to stop reading it. But that’s a research thing, not a language thing. The language thing, as Najida mentioned, is trickier because a writer can’t make assumptions as to the local knowledge of the reader.
If you’re writing a story, […] explain place names and team names fully, even if it yanks a more local reader out of the story a bit and makes the characters sound overly formal?
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Say it ‘proper’ in the narrative at least once, but in dialogue, stay true to where the character is from. If they’re not going to say La Guardia Airport—don’t make them ‘say it’. ^_^
I am with Tina. Narrative formal, but characters should talk informally.
Agree with Tina.
Pop Quiz for those outside Texas only (expat Texans excluded):
I know you know the football team. But what’s the name of the Dallas baseball team? And for extra credit, the basketball team?
Texas Rangers. Dallas Mavericks.
And what’s odd about the particular usage in the book I’m reading: it was the protagonist’s ruminations. So it was narrative, not dialogue, but still very much the thoughts of the protagonist, so it did and didn’t ring true. Tough call what would have been better in this situation.
Hm. Should I include brief sample?
If I run into this problem, I tend to err on the side of vernacular, but make an effort to surround it with some context. For example, I mention the Scroll & Key in my manuscript. This is one of Yale’s infamous secret societies. Their headquarters (a.k.a a tomb) is a windowless box (though architecturally interesting) slab on College Street. I think I mention the name of the society, where it’s located (College Street) and what it’s near, Beinecke Library. Readers may not know that it’s one of Yale’s secret societies, but they’ll get the jist that it’s a location on a college campus and that’s good enough for me.
Perhaps, if they are so moved, they’ll look up the rest.
As long as it’s true and real to the life and language, then it won’t disturb the book. If the team is just part of a sentence, then the reader lets it slide as you would a conversation thinking “OK, that’s a sports team, I think…whatever. Now when is she gonna hook up with the hunk!?!”
However, if the person is going to see the team’s game——then an added “She’d been a baseball fan since she was a baby.” Would clue the read to it being a baseball team.
Otherwise, the reader would then be thinking “Baseball? Rollerderby? Rugby?”
I also notice putting ‘the’ in front of freeways, etc. alot. It is a California thing but is jarring in a book or on TV. Arg.
the first time you mention something, use the full name. after that, you can use the abbreviated colloquial form with confidence that the reader will know what you’re referring to.
if you’re writing in a well-developed genre, you might take a chance that every reader of say, chick lit, knows who prada is, and you don’t need to define prada. but do lots of homework before you make assumptions that might confuse your reader.
for example, if readers have ever heard of laguardia, it’s in connection to the airport. however, “take me to kennedy” might mean “take me to senator kennedy,” unless you somehow make it clear that you’re referring to the big airport, instead of the big blowhard.
I live in Eugene Oregon.
If I were to write that my characters were going to go to a basketball game at “The Pitt” where would they be going? and who would they be seeing?
If I were to refer to “Pre’s Trail” where would I be?
Could you paddle a canoe down “The Mill Race” If so what decade is it in the story?
I think it’s important to take into consideration the fact that a lot of readers don’t know what those palaces are. I love to read a book that also teaches about a place that i’ve never been. NYC is very very different though…it’s one of the most famous cities in the world everyone knows a little bit about the monuments and airport…
Oh! Quiz for Oregon Bitches… this means you Candy!
The “O” for the Oregon Ducks is a very very specific design tell me what it represents.
Hint: it’s all very Eugene specific. Sorry Eastcoasters : )
In dialog, I’d probably be irked, because if the characters are from a particular area, they should know the slang stuff.
I’ve read through most of the Stephanie Plum novels, and only once did Ms. Evanovich get the Jersey thing wrong: She talked about Giants cheerleaders.
Eeh! Wrong! I know for a fact that the NY Giants have NEVER had cheerleaders (it was Stephanie talking about a friend or someone from high school who supposedly became one). I still enjoy reading those novels, but, boy, did I do a double take on that one!
I’ve known authors that were so in tune to my life to the degree I felt like I should look for spy cameras or I actually wondered if they were a personal friend writing under a pen name……..
It was things like—-
A joke that’d been running through my social circles for a while.
A bread pudding recipe that I’d just tried.
The colloquialisms of my state, region, even town.
Attitude towards animals, wildlife, individual independence.
Boiled peanuts and beer on Sunday afternoon.
The correct usage of “Bless your heart!”
Mostly, my behaviors/emotions/sexuality, the behaviors/emotions/sexuality of the men I knew….even verbage in relationships etc.
Maybe even that is a regional thing…..
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I’ve also known authors who wouldn’t know an ‘I suwannee’ if it bit them on the ass…..
Who think there is only one Peachtree Street in Atlanta,
Who think the Geechee, Gullah and Low Country dialects are the same.
Who don’t know what a cooter is 😉
Hey Sarah—just curious: in that book, was it Central Park east or west? I’m only asking because I have vague memories of a place near the bottom of the park on 5th (although maybe not 60th) where there are steps up out of the park from a little rocky area. I had to meet friends there once for a party and I was totally thrown when they kept saying “we’re by the steps.”
I get annoyed when people don’t speak in books the way they do in life. I think it’s up to the author to allow the reader to deduce from the context what’s going on—otherwise it’s just way to jarring. (Although, that two Penn Stations thing throws me into a panic every time I’m on a train.)
Methinks the copy editor won re: the New York Mets, etc.
In other words, I’m betting big $$ the writer didn’t write it that way, but the CE decided readers are stupid and wouldn’t know what the writer was talking about.
I know. I’ve had it happen to me. Usually, I catch it and change it all back. But stuff gets messed up. Like on my first single title for Pocket, all the Spanish is wrong. Okay, not all…but quite a bit. I’d done the best I could, knowing I was making errors because I’m not fluent, but then I had someone go over all of it and make the fixes. Only…the fixes were never incorporated into the final version even though I sent it all to the publisher, my editor approved it, etc. I was horrified. I’d spent a lot of time making sure it was right before publication…but no. Things happen, I guess.
I’m in Tampa. Our NFL team is the Bucs. No one calls our (pitiful) baseball team the Devilrays…it’s just the Rays. (Of course, no one liked the name when they first came up with it, either and considering their record, we rarely talk about them at all.) I expect the same from other cities.
BTW, SB Sarah…does this mean I can email you with questions about my currently NY-based book? Pretty please?
🙂
Hey Sarah—just curious: in that book, was it Central Park east or west? I’m only asking because I have vague memories of a place near the bottom of the park on 5th (although maybe not 60th) where there are steps up out of the park from a little rocky area.
I totally know where you mean, but the specific reference from the book I mentioned had the heroine climbing steps to 5th Avenue, which, from where the heroine was, doesn’t happen.
And the two Penn Stations thing is WRONG on SO MANY LEVELS it KILLS me. Especially when I try to go from New York Penn to Newark Penn, and the automated ticket machine is like, ‘What now? You want to stay where you are? Ok!’
And Julie, from one person with a bad baseball team to another (oh my stars, the Pirates, they break my heart), yes, you can email me. If I don’t know the answers I’ll go ask someone. Like someone who is in Central Park talking to him and herself. How’s that?
As a reader, I’d rather the author go for authenticity than explanation. Whether in dialogue or the internal monologue of a character, have him/her refer to the location/entity in the vernacular: “LaGuardia,” “the Mets,” “MoMA.” I’m a big girl; if I don’t understand a reference, I can look it up on Teh IntarWebs. What I hate is when a character thinks of something in terms they wouldn’t use either in saying something to another character, or in thinking to themselves.
For example, any book set in Minneapolis (where I live) would need to have characters refer to the University of Minnesota as “the U” because that’s how everyone refers to it informally: only newscasters say “the University” or “University of Minnesota.” With luck, the author of said book would provide enough context that the reader could figure out the reference.
Sharyn McCrumb has a series of books (not romances) set in East Tennessee. Since most of my relatives live in the area, I’m very familiar with the setting. I was thinking of how she explained local areas (that are not as well known as NYC sights).
I specifically remember a scene where a character was going to the VA Medical Center in Johnson City. As I was reading that, I’m thinking “Hey, that’s Mountain Home”. I turn the page and the next line is “the locals call it Mountain Home.”
(I remember this because I have a personal interest in Mountain Home, my mom worked there many, many years ago and a co worker set her up on a blind date. That’s how my mom met my dad. 😉 )
I hate it when these little things take me out of a story, but unless they’re really awful (like the Eiffel Tower reference in the Regency), I can live with it. I was reading A History of Love last week and the author had a character standing next to the pantyhose display in Bloomingdales. In 1954.
Those of us of a certain age remember our first pair of grown up stockings, and they were held up with a garter belt. Pantyhose didn’t come on the market until the late 60’s/early 70’s.
It’s an anachronism that should have been caught by someone, but if the book’s author and editor are in their 20’s, I can see how they might not know that and forgive them their trespasses.
Deal, Sarah…thanks!
Honestly, one of the best “tour guides” I ever had when researching a book was the homeless guy in San Franscisco who knew all the lingo and told me which areas to avoid when I was walking around. Another was a fisherman named Big Tony who took me around the Pier. The best tour guide, however, was a Boston native (while researching Boston, natch) who I had to pay…but he was amazing. Made me spend hours in a cemetary I thought I wouldn’t use in the book…but I loved it so much, I ended up working it in.
That kind of thing drives me crazy. I’m still scarred from Douglas Coupland talking about mangrove trees in Tallahassee(!) in “Generation X” lo these many years ago. I think (I hope) he meant magnolias…
I do my best to write in context of both the characters and of the story overall, so I probably don’t overexplain locations. I’d like to think that if the locations really needed the explanation, either my editor or my copy editor would have dinged me on it. (Responsibility is all mine; the editors are a second and third pair of eyes to help keep me honest.)
Yep,
I remember the birth of panty hose (I was SO glad to get rid of that damn garter belt!)
I had another jarring moment when an author had a woman who was constantly abusing vodka and vicodin…..in the 1970’s!
I was pissed. (Vicodin got FDA approval in 1984).
Oh and don’t get me started on the ‘I Dream of Jeannie’ dressed dancing girls in Egypt, circa 1820!?!?!?
I think there’s a fine line there, since some of the larger city landmarks are assumed to be common country-wide knowledge. If an author were writing about my hometown of DC, then I think it would be overkill for her to state the exact geographic locations of the Washington Monument or the Lincoln Memorial, since everyone over the age of 7 should already know that those landmarks are located on the National Mall in downtown DC. If she were writing about something less well known like the National Cathedral, then she would be justified in adding a few pertinent details about its location. And yes, for God’s sake, she should get those details right. It’s amazing how buildings, streets, and entire neighborhoods can disappear or be relocated in movies and books about DC.
Security word: wife81. Slow it down, Ramesses!
I don’t like to be jarred out of a story. To me, it makes more sense to have it in the book as the character would think or say it. Usually, even if one isn’t totally familiar with what’s being referred to, you can figure it out from the context. “Take me to Kennedy” if someone is headed on a trip should be obvious, even if the reader doesn’t know all the airports in NY.
And who was it who commented on putting “the” in front of the freeway? We totally do that here in SoCal. So if I were writing something that were based here and a character was speaking (or even thinking) about what freeway to take, it would have “the” in front of it. Because no one says, “Hmm…I wonder how the traffic on Interstate 10 is?” They think, “Hmmm…, I wonder on how traffic is on the 10.”
Forgot to say that it can go *too* far the other way. I was reading a historical recently that made me keep thinking that the author wanted to make sure that everyone knew how much research she’d done and how she was trying to make everything so realistic.
End result? I wanted to smack the hell out of the heroine for being so prissy and sanctimonious, I was tired of hearing about the smells, and tired of the author trying to use the language (“cant” in her words) of the time. If it hadn’t been a book on my Sony Reader, I’d have thrown it against the wall. Several times. Thus identifying the pitfalls of reading electronically – you can’t just pitch it in annoyance.
Pretty much hell to the no on geographic references in front of major landmarks in super famous cities. It ruins what could otherwise be an excellent book. If you know the story is set in City X, I think everyone can safely assume the airport and sports teams are the ones for that city. People who make up cities don’t have to preface everything with the city name, so an author writing about New York certainly doesn’t need to.
Same thing when an author totally disregards something that should be there—like when the heroine has the vapors from her corset and swoons, then ten minutes later when she and the hero are about to have The Sex, he can just yank her dress off in five seconds to get to her heaving breasticles? So wrong! It’s possibly even more wrong than that to talk about the New York La Guardia Airport. Gah!
As a side note, one of the most jarring things for me is when a character in a Boston-based book or TV show (Crossing Jordan does this regularly) talks about taking ‘the three’ or ‘the ninety-three’ to get places—using ‘the’ preceeding a road number is a California thing!
I had to quit watching that show because the way her father calls jer “JAW-dun” as some kind of overdone Boston touchstone drove me MAD.
I agree with those who said spell it out in narrative, but not in dialogue. Generally I’ll use something a little more formal than I would with my friends—-using Patriots instead of Pats, for example—-but I don’t think it needs to be spelled out. Especially the airports and such.
But even if it’s not well-known, like LaGuardia or Logan, something like “flying into EBF Central” is pretty self-explanatory.
The idea of one guy saying to his buddy, “Hey, wanna go watch the Boston Red Sox beat the New York Yankees tonight?” is probably the most amusing thing I’ve heard today, though.
Miri quoth:
“Oh! Quiz for Oregon Bitches… this means you Candy!
The “O†for the Oregon Ducks is a very very specific design tell me what it represents.
Hint: it’s all very Eugene specific. Sorry Eastcoasters : )”
Erm? I’m feeling a bit ignorant, here. I’m slightly eastside of Stumptown, but I don’t know about that particular “Oâ€. Tell?
Verification word = ‘instead69’,… is that a suggestion? “Oh, my!” she muttered and fluttered as she fanned herself.
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Nope, not in NorCal. We say “Take 80 to 580.” No one says “Take the 880.” We also don’t say “the BART,” which shows up all the time in books.
Drives me crazy when a writer who is not from here tries to be specific and gets it all wrong: cable car bells are heard in ‘hoods without cable cars; busses run on incorrect routes; etc.
I’m setting some scenes for my next book in NYC. I invited my NYC pals over for dinner and grilled them about geographic and other details. My editor lives in NYC and she can fix anything my California butt gets wrong.
Oh, and to stay on topic…
I read a blurb for a book last week that mentioned I-95 running through Vegas. That took me aback, but when I mentioned it I was told that there’s a US 95 in Vegas and that some west coast transplants refer to it as “I-95”.
Could be some strange local custom, but it did leap out at me as wrong.
And one of the reasons I like setting my own books in North Florida is it gives me a good excuse to take the day off and drive to Fernandina or St. Augustine or up to the Suwannee to get a feel for the areas I’m writing about. Maybe I’ll set my next book in Maui.[g]
Nope, not in NorCal. We say “Take 80 to 580.†No one says “Take the 880.â€
Depends. I’ve heard it and used it both ways, ESPECIALLY with 880, but also with 5, 101, and 280.