Mardi Gras: Not Quite A Party

Jane broke the news at DA that Mardi Gras Publishing was going belly up in yet-another e-pub bankruptcy.

While as of June of this year, Mardi Gras publishing folks were defending the fort the indication now seems that they’ll be filing for bankruptcy, though their site shows no indication of that. (Warning: MUSIC on site).

But then, anonymous Bitchery author sent me this link: Katrina Strauss, author and media contact for Aphrodite’s Apples tells tales of thievery and plagiarism when her book seemed to have been “heavily borrowed from” after she sent it for review to a joint list between AA and MGP. Anonymous author also has suspicions of similarities between a book she wrote and a MG book, though there wasn’t enough evidence to do much besides ponder and feel sick inside.

Now these are some big honking accusations, but I’m curious – anyone else hear rumors of nefarious deeds in the Mardi Gras business practice? While bankruptcy doesn’t allow those authors who believe they’ve been plagiarized much recourse, there seems to be a sense of ‘at last now I can say something.’ Pity they couldn’t say something earlier. But plagiarism, as we’ve discussed, can be terribly difficult to prove, not to mention highly isolating and unpleasant.

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  1. Qadesh says:

    For those of us not in the know, a little further info is needed.

    Aside from being a very successful author, what exactly does Piers Anthony have to do with any of this?  I know there’s someone out there besides me going, hunh?

  2. Chrissy says:

    Before people assume that being proactive works like a magic wand, let me say that time is the enemy here.  Warnings build up because even when publishers ARE reported to preds/eds or outed here and there, not everyone listens.  Very often the rabidly loyal defend to the end. 

    Quite often the owners belong to the same loops/forums/groups.  Quite often those same loops/forums/groups are populated with masses who rushed to get in that “new door” and thereby built a loyal base.

    Some of us wince when we see fifteen authors who couldn’t get arrested suddenly announcing contracts with these new, questionable publishers.  If you speak out, it takes time for others to add their voices.  It builds.  It festers.

    Then it breaks open and we all get covered in poison.  I guess my point is… hindsight is 20/20, and I know PERSONALLY of authors who are ignoring this sort of thing right now with a newer publisher.  When you don’t belong to their stable, and every question is met with defense… well, you shake your head and shut up.  And gradually you start hearing friends use identical language when they complain.

    “I’m tired of being called a prima donna.”

    “Well, it’s supposed to be on _Big_Site_ but it’s taking time, and they explained in an email…”

    “I said something, but Suzie and Jennie said I was wrong, and I’m so tired of…”

    “I will promote this book with them but never, ever again will I work with these people…”

    It’s upsetting.  Our hearts break for these authors.  But let’s be real… it’s like Publish America on a smaller, but more damaging scale.  They prey on dreams and it takes major rude awakenings before the shit hits the fan.

    And Samhain, LooseID, Freya’s Bower all take the hit while the weasels slink off to plot again…

  3. Nora Roberts says:

    ~and I know PERSONALLY of authors who are ignoring this sort of thing right now with a newer publisher.~

    I’m sure this is absolutely true. And it’s unlikely to change. I do believe warnings, proper research, listening will help those who are serious about building a career—and not mean a thing to those who are simply desperate and determined to say they’re published no matter what they’re asked to sign, no matter how many flares have gone up.

    The first group? Many of those will find homes for their work, and build that career. The second group? They’re going to get screwed.

  4. E-publishing Writer and Editor says:

    It’s my opinion that several e-publishing companies have been formed by authors unsatisfied with e-publishing companies.  Unhappy with edits?  Don’t like so-and-so?  Form your own e-publishing company!  That’s what MGP and Forbidden Publications did (former Silk’s Vault authors).

    The fact that their company SHOULD be run like a business doesn’t enter the picture.  It’s about control.  Their company, their rules.

    Same goes for fear.

    If you speak out on an author’s only loop, chances are you’ll get smacked by favorites, friends or the owner.  When so many people hit you at the same time, it’s easy to decide not to make a fuss about late royalty payments or edits or release dates.  Especially when no other authors back you up…because they’ve seen what happens when the claws come out…

    It’s a never-ending cycle.

    So, my suggestion is to look at the publisher’s “About Us” page, see who their authors are, join their public Yahoo group, visit their chat room.  You can learn a lot by simply observing.  And ask your friends (or, hell, complete strangers) who are contracted with a company.  You’d be surprised what information people will pass along in confidence. 

    And that’s what you’ve got to remember:  someone is sharing their experience with you in confidence, not for you to blab on your blog “So-and-so said this about…” 

    Leave the drama out of e-publishing.

  5. Stella Price says:

    December:

    Once we went to Piers, we also went to WB and nothing came of that either. We went to P and E with our complaints and the proof, and still nothing both WB and P and E were “looking into it”. When Asked at RD about the situation, i spoke out, and then theres was backlash from Said publisher and her cronies and the publisher said things like “You were paid and i never did anything wrong…” and quite frankly over there i let it go. i didnt have any support anywhere when this happened to me, and the other girls and i NEVER have a problem with saying WHO i am when people are in the wrong. Im not one to go off half cocked, i do my research and collect my data, its just a question of noone wanting to know about it because it wasnt happening to them. I knew early on that there was a LOT of things wrong with the publisher, and i started collecting and I even spoke out on the list. i was beaten down left and right and still said stuff.. You can talk all you want, but it doesnt mean anyone is going to listen or help you.

  6. Nonny says:

    Chrissy said: When you don’t belong to their stable, and every question is met with defense… well, you shake your head and shut up.

    Mmmhmm. I remember when a lot of people at a romance writing site were contracted by MGP. I looked over the site and around the Web for info on the publisher, and it all felt … extremely fishy to me. I didn’t expect them to last very long, and sadly that turned out correct.

    But when a publisher is new and there’s no negative information out there—what can you say? New authors who are ecstatic to have their work published by anyone aren’t going to listen because the whole thing gives you a bad vibe. (Hell, most people in general wouldn’t. >_<)

  7. Wry Hag says:

    Sorry, Qadesh.  Piers Anthony is an established (i.e., prit-near ancient) writer of SF/F who started an informational web site for authors (http://www.hipiers.com).  It’s definitely worth a look-see.

  8. Stella, I really do hope you believe me when I say I’m trying to point out to other people what the outlets are for them; I’m NOT trying to make you feel you didn’t do enough or that you’re somehow to blame for what happened to the other MGP authors.

    I’m frankly stunned by how you were ignored. Nobody should have to beat their hands against the walls the way you were forced to.

    All I can say is, for everyone else out there, send your stuff to EREC. Emily won’t ignore you.
    And don’t forget the AW forums, where you don’t have to wait for someone else to post your information for you.

  9. I used to belong to EPIC, and during one of my (all too frequent) extremely broke periods, let my membership lapse.  Making note to self to rejoin.  I’m not sure what they do or could’ve done in this particular situation, but they certainly seem to be one of the main advocates for epublishing and epublished authors.

  10. Qadesh says:

    Thanks Wry Hag, I knew the ancient author part, just not the advocate for other writers bit.  I keep having visions of him in judge’s robes in a chamber looking down on the courtroom and rendering verdicts.  I gather evidence, such as that which is being discussed, is presented to him and if he feels that the authors were wronged he will out them on his website.  Is that pretty much it?

  11. Treva Harte says:

    It’s a business.  It’s a business.  It’s a business.  And it’s hard work.  If the author doesn’t have to work hard to get a release and the publisher doesn’t work hard to get a release, then something is wrong.

    Treva Harte (speaking on her own behalf, not Loose Id)
    http://www.livejournal.com/site/horizon.bml?menu=journal

  12. Chrissy says:

    You know—I don’t hear a lot of wrong notes being hit here.  I find my internal dialogue just… well, nodding in aggreement.

    Which just goes to show… sometimes all you can do is learn from the rogering you just got.

    I know when I see a brand new publisher taking EVERYONE at this site or that, I am sceptical.  I know when I see writers I know to be very talented jumping on that bandwagon, I get a funny little tummy ache.  Ack, what if the good stuff legitimizes the bad stuff enough to convince people of legitimacy that isn’t there?

    Shorter response:  this is scary shit.  Writers have to be made of pretty tough stuff.

    I KNOW people like Stella have gotten bitch slapped for speaking up.  We have all seen it.  So I guess we just have to accept that even in the best of circumstances we are taking risks.

    group hug?

  13. So, Treva, the only ones working hard to get those releases should be our characters, right? 🙂

  14. Oops, I meant NOT working hard.

    Stupid failed joke…

  15. Alice Gaines says:

    Hi, all,

    I’m not a party to this, and I’ve never published with Mardi Gras.  I just wanted to say that I’ve been with a few e-publishers, and it’s not standard practice to have to pay to get your book posted anywhere.  I’ve never shelled out any money to any of my publishers for anything except copies of my own books that I use for promotion.  That’s true of my NY house as well as my small presses.

    Alice Gaines

  16. veinglory says:

    The whole thing is tricky.  I have sometimes ‘sat’ on single complaints without posting a warning but I’ve now added a new code to EREC so there is the firm ‘not recommended’ and the milder ‘smoke’ category that will go up after even just one reasonable sounding author complaint.

    Posting warnings causes greif.  You are bound to tar some innocent parties with crazy stalker authors, and miss some really bad publishers that are really good at intimidating their authors.

    One thing I have noticed is that good publishers, large and small, respond to questions about their practices positively with a lot of volunteered information.  If asking questions causes snark from editors and owners, this is the first red flag.

  17. DS says:

    Piers Anthony usually just posts when he receives a complaint and what the complaint is.  I was actually over there the other day and chance to read the report on this publisher.  he had quite a lot of information going back and forth as he would receive a bad report and then a good one.

  18. ““It’s my opinion that several e-publishing companies have been formed by authors unsatisfied with e-publishing companies.  Unhappy with edits?  Don’t like so-and-so?  Form your own e-publishing company!  That’s what MGP and Forbidden Publications did (former Silk’s Vault authors).”“

    I’m sorry you felt inclined to include Forbidden in that assessment. Rene is well respected by her authors, not just myself. But I’m not going to stand here and cheer and rah-rah, because I certainly don’t want to be labeled as someone’s “pet”.

    I have had no issues with her, and if I ever do, I pick up the phone. I’m sure this alone will cause some derision since I’ve been there so long, but the trials she suffered this summer were hers and hers alone and I won’t divulge her privacy.

    This whole summer of publisher implosions has really made me very cautious of anything I say, and anything I write.

    I feel for the authors at MGP, as I am friends with a few who were deeply affected by the collapse of this e-publisher.

  19. Can I answer the question of why authors (at least the ones I know) may say nothing and “do” nothing?  Out of fear?  Yes.
    Because, at this moment, epublishing is still a small community.  People cross over.  Editors at one epub may be authors at another.  If you post something on one loop, it spreads to another.
    And it could really fuck with your career.  Especially if someone gets it wrong.
    How about those “feelings” that something just ain’t right?
    Those “feelings” aren’t concrete evidence.  And there’s the doubts. “Maybe it’s all in my head.  Maybe it’s like this everywhere.”
    It ISN’T standard practice in epublishing to make an author “pay” for a website listing. The things that have happened at these failing businesses are not standard.
    BUT it’s a small world in epublishing.  Piss someone at one pub off and you MAY be headed for a flame war that you had NO IDEA was coming.
    I’ll say this.  I’ve been privy to information about epubs that have kept me from subbing to them, but I totally understand why the authors haven’t gone public with their concerns.
    When I was new, someone warned me that I was swimming in a small pool.  If you piss in the ocean, no one notices.  Piss in the pond, however,…….

  20. Oh and one more thing.  I cannot emphasize enough how important it was for me to have honest relationships with other authors.
    Being able to discuss my concerns without fear of exposure meant I had someone else giving me a detached view.

  21. Jen says:

    Not to put too fine a point on things, but this is not a concept unique to e-publishing.  There have been—and probably currently are still—cases of authors being labeled among industry insiders as “problem children” as a result of inquiries like this with print pubs, too. 

    Who hasn’t heard speculation that maybe the bad cover, the lower advance, the sudden shift of a publication date, or the “pass” on the next proposal isn’t the result of an author’s above-board inquiry into delayed royalties or other business practices?

    Granted, the intert00bz brings out the Stupid in everybody once in awhile, and print pub shenanigans are more likely to be offline than online, but still—this is not an epub-only phenomenon. It’s just more obvious in the small pond than the big ocean.

    Writer Beware.

  22. I think whoever said that the increased level of communication in the epublishing world contributes to a lot of this had it right.  I can IM my editors at almost any time of the day and get instant responses.  It makes it a little harder to keep that barrier between business and friendship.

    That being said, I’d still speak up if I had problems.  That line still has to be there.

  23. Even though my opinion means fuckall, and I’ve put way more than my $0.02 in here, I’m going to keep yapping. 

    What the authors at MGP and other now-defunct small presses are experiencing is awful.  No two ways about it, they are in a tough spot, and from talking to some of them, I don’t think they even realize how tough yet.  Bankruptcy law is a tricky animal and there won’t be any fast and furious resolution for them. 

    I say that so as to make it clear I’m not dancing on their figurative graves here.  But, part of me can’t help but be somewhat pleased by this turn of events.  Why?  It’s shed light on an increasing problem in the small press community.  It’s geared people into action.  This code of silence crap is, well, crap. 

    Change is rarely easy, and the fear of speaking out against unethical publishers must change for the e-press industry to survive.  For e-published authors to survive.  So, too, must the aspiring author’s unwillingness to carefully read, question, and negotiate contracts. 

    I don’t think I’m the only one to see the positive here.  We’re taught in so many aspects of our lives to trust our instincts.  If something doesn’t seem right, don’t do it.  If a publisher doesn’t seem right, don’t contract with them. If you don’t like something in a contract, don’t sign it.  And for god’s sake, if you realize later that you’ve placed your work with one of these places, GET OUT.

  24. Chrissy says:

    I think you’re right, Kayleigh.  In the grander scheme of things e-pubbing is still in its infancy.  It may feel like it’s been around a while but it hasn’t.

    This is culling the herd.  Samhain will survive, I feel Freya’s and LooseID will also survive.  EC, in spite of its awful covers, seems to be a runaway train with no track-end in sight.

    Like any marketplace, the poorly run attempts will fail.  Bad leadership will drive some into the ground.  Those started by people who had unhealthy motives will stutter and die, too.

    Growing pains… but pains none-the-less, yes?

  25. ~Samhain will survive, I feel Freya’s and LooseID will also survive.~

    I certainly hope so, as I’ve an upcoming release with Freya’s, and Marci and her staff are absolute top notch.  I did my research before sending anything to them, including buying at least a dozen of their publications and finding the editing near flawless. 

    Growing pains is a perfect way to phrase it.  Yes, some very painful lessons for budding authors everywhere.  One of the pros AND cons of e-publishing is how fast-paced it is compared to NY houses.  But authors are learning the hard way that quicker is not always better.  If an epublisher lists their submission response time as two months or more, I take it as a good sign.  That must mean they’re busy, and willing to give each manuscript the attention it deserves.  Whenever I get frustrated with my own career, I go and read Stephen King’s On Writing, or I read Sherri Kenyon’s blog where she talks about the mountain of rejection letters she received before she “made it big.”  Very few authors, if any, skyrocket to the top of the bestseller lists right out of the gate.  There’s a hell of a lot of suffering that we go through to get to where we want to be.

    I’m not against start up presses.  My first two novels are with Aphrodite’s Apples Press which was, at the time I signed with them, a start up.  In fact, my first book was one of the launch titles.  BUT I had personally known HS Kinn for some time prior to her starting AA. 

    I also had one of the launch titles for Red Rose Publishing, which opened just this summer.  Again, I knew Wendi Felter prior to her starting RRP.  And thus far, I have nothing but positive things to report.

    Again, I in no way wish to belittle MGP’s authors or state that they somehow deserve this.  They do not. 

    But as an industry, the more we suffer, the more we learn, the more we grow, the better we become.

  26. Treva Harte says:

    Yes, dear, our characters will ALWAYS get a release—unless they’ve been very, very bad. (Usually I’m quicker to catch those innuendos.)

    Treva

    Oops, I meant NOT working hard.

    Stupid failed joke…

    Posted by December Quinn/Stacia Kane on 08/30 at 03:37 PM

  27. Nora Roberts says:

    ~Editors at one epub may be authors at another.~

    Is this a routine practice? It feels to me like a very thorny area. Sally X writes for Publisher Y, and edits for Publisher Z.

    I realize some editors in the big ocean of publishing also write, but believe that’s the exception rather than the routine.

  28. HS Kinn says:

    True, true, Kayleigh.  We’d known each other, and indeed, we knew everyone who was a first wave Aphrodite’s author, though we grew beyond that rapidly.  The thing that boggles my mind about a LOT of the startups though, is the lead time – the lack of it.  We worked on Aphrodite’s Apples for a year, got a business mentor, and several of the places that have started up since then – MGP especially – did virtually NO lead time, maybe a month or two.  Two months?  WHAT?  Where’s the market research?  Where’s the business plan?

    Honestly, it’s better to start slow and build up naturally.  Opening a business should never be taken lightly.

  29. Is this a routine practice? It feels to me like a very thorny area. Sally X writes for Publisher Y, and edits for Publisher Z.

    And sometimes she even reviews for Reviewer W, too.  It’s a very thorny area, I think, but somewhat of a routine practice. It also helps contribute to the silence thing, as well, because there’s always the possibility the fellow author you’re warning against somebody IS that somebody. *eyeroll*

    One of my least favorite aspects of the e-publishing community, actually.

  30. Is this a routine practice? It feels to me like a very thorny area. Sally X writes for Publisher Y, and edits for Publisher Z.

    I know of one editor who publishes under a different name and then crows about that author as if she was an entirely different person.

    AND that was a huge secret.  Interesting isn’t it?
    Needless to say, that publisher isn’t on my list.

    But these are the exception to the rule.  Most epubs are upfront about who they are and what they’re doing.

  31. I know of two instances of that, Jennifer, and there are probably more.

    It’s one of the reasons why I edit (for Samhain) and write (for Drollerie and Stardust) under exactly the same name, because I don’t want to inadvertently get into a position where I feel I’m misleading people.

    I’m sure it can create difficult situations, but in my experience so far it hasn’t.

  32. Lil says:

    ~Is this a routine practice? It feels to me like a very thorny area. Sally X writes for Publisher Y, and edits for Publisher Z.~

    It actually is. I’m not a writer, lol, my people run away whenever I pick up a pen, but I am an editor and proofer. I work for several different companies, trying to get a solid reputation built up for good work and editing skills. My companies are Changeling, Wild Rose and Whispers, and one independent writer in England.
    For one publisher, I get paid in books. works for me as I am a heavy reader. For the others, I do submissions, proofing, editing and get paid on commission about every three months. As I am trying to acquire a good reputation, I make sure I work fast and with accuracy, I even am going to college courses to get a degree to ‘legitimize’ myself. I wnent to epubs for a chance to do what i want to do. I know, most people want to write and I do, too, but I am smart enough, or at least I hope I am, to realize that I need more than just a love of reading to edit, I also needed experience, which is what I am gaining as an editor.
    I proofed for MGP. Had a contract. Never got or will get paid.I’m not the only one, either. I know at least one more proofer for MGP who also works with another company I work for.
    I’ve put it out there that I have copies of MGP books that I proofed and if anyone suspects they’ve been plagiarized, I’d be happy to compare or let you compare.
    I love books, in all shapes forms and publishings, to be involved, even unknowingly in non-original books makes me very mad.
    Thank goodness that my other pubs are willing to stand behind me.

    Lesson learned.

    But now I wonder if that’s why at MGP I was not supposed to talk to the books’ authors, but send them when they were done straight back to Teresa….?

    Lil

  33. Lil says:

    and then I misspell things…great, juuuust great. *sigh*

    Lil

  34. Teddy Pig says:

    Thanks Wry Hag, I knew the ancient author part, just not the advocate for other writers bit.  I keep having visions of him in judge’s robes in a chamber looking down on the courtroom and rendering verdicts.  I gather evidence, such as that which is being discussed, is presented to him and if he feels that the authors were wronged he will out them on his website.  Is that pretty much it?

    Ya know Qadesh,

    I am so fucking glad I am not the only smartass around here.

    LOL!

  35. Tarra Young says:

    I was published with Mardi Gras, but I can tell you after this experience, I am finished with epublishing.  From here on out, I am putting 100% of my focus on finding an NY agent and getting a reputable publisher.  My #1 choice is Harlequin.

  36. Tarra Young says:

    “I also find it incredible that some authors have to pay to have their book listed on the site in order for readers to buy it and that the contract is a NET one which, according to Emily Veinglory means that you only get paid royalties after all publisher expenses are met.”

    Lucky for me when she gave me the contract with the changes and asked me to initial each section, I didn’t initial that section, so never agreed to it and Teresa never brought it up.

  37. Raine Delight says:

    I am an author at MGp dealing withthis mes and we found some interesting and heartbreakinghtings this week. With everything goingon, I am styill hopeful on e-publishing. I can say this in all honesty as a newbie author, I did l ook into things and yes I had choices to make on where my series went but MGP had a solid reputation when I talked to them, at the time I signed Wendi was also there and she sold me ont he company, worked with me and helped me. Teresa fradued us, stole from us and lied fromus. Now our books are stuck in limbo, we can’t resub elsewhere and it is stressful to deal with as she plays her games with us. Now I am taking my aggrivation out on characters who seem to be happy with it. LOL and look forward to publishingin print eventually. I may be a newbie but when you are new to a business and tyold here are the rules, don’t talk back and then forced *yes forced* to sign an addendum to a contract that says “You won’t ssay anything bad about MGP or its personal business” I tried to get out..I wasn’t released from my contract, Teresa never answered emails fromme on my discrepencies or questions andnow I try to help my fellow MGP authors who deal with this with me, newbies who are scared to even submit anything and labeled a troublemaker for demading an accounting of my sales when discrepencies came out. I am sorry but I don’t make waves, I watch, listen and try to make informed decsions. I m ade amistake, I learned from it and I can’t move on completly because Teresa is playing her games w ith us all. If she files for bankruptcy now, all contracts six months into the period BEFORE she closed are subject to the court so that means all the cauthors who left prior to August 2007. This is what we learned from Trisk Authors posts as well as Bankruptcy Laws. So please..I didn’t deserve this nor did anyone else there. This is a woman who coned us all yet had a pat answer for everything when she deemed us worthy to answer.

    OK I am off to my corner now and hope I don’t get bashed for my 2 cents.
    Raine

  38. Tarra Young says:

    I won’t blast your Rain…what Teresa did to us was terrible.  She created a huge mess she couldn’t handle on her own, all because she had too much pride to accept help when it was offered to her.  Once the mess became more than she could handle, instead of talking to us, she jumped ship and left us all to sink.

    You’re right, she did lie to all of us and that was the reason I stayed and didn’t walk away.  When I got my 1st statement, it said as per contract, I didn’t make enough (the contract stated there had to be $10.00 in sales to get a royalty check) to get a check and the balance would carry over to the next statement.  When 2nd quarter came, I never even got a statement and Teresa became MIA around the same time the ones who got checks, either got unsigned ones or they got them and they bounced when they tried to cash them.

    As for the addendum, I initialed everything but the 40% net part, so when she decided to pay off all publishing expenses before paying me, she breached the contract she had with me.  From what I heard, she blackmailed others into initialing it.

  39. Coming in late but with a couple comments. 

    1) No company in business less than two years should be considered to have a solid reputation.  Reputations are earned through time and weathering storms. Any company in business under two years should be considered for all practical intents and purposes a start up and while building a reputation should not be considered to have established one yet. Any author signing with a company under two years old is taking a huge risk. (Make sure the contract reflects that) Any author signing with a company under five years old is taking a moderate risk. There is currently no epublisher in business that offers 1/2 of the opportunity of a NY Pub, though money can be, for _some_ very good. Contracts should reflect those limitations, too.

    Epubbing is a viable market. It is a fun market,  but it is still a small market and the businesses within it offer, comparatively, limited opportunities. That being the case, it is probably unwise to sign away the equivalent of one’s first born child and all future opportunities to be published in a limited market.  Shannon Stacey posted a excellent post over on Karen Scott’s blog (can’t get a link to work) about the reality of wanting to be published, the problems of being badly published, and the wisdom of waiting and developing one’s skills so that one has better options when it comes to being published. 

    And to repeat what has been said over and over on this thread here and elsewhere.  The first contract an author is offered may not be the contract the author wants to take. Think long and hard before you accept it.  A writing career will likely span thirty years.  It’s really not wise to shoot oneself in the foot on the first step out the door.  If the writing is strong enough,  there will be more than one opportunity, certainly in Epubbiing and probably in NY.  It’s my personal belief that it makes more sense to hold out for the one that offers a step forward into a career rather than jumping for the one that plays into the ego but makes little sense otherwise.

  40. ann says:

    MGP is out of business. Today, September 3 the website is not there

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