Reader Nifty sent along this request:
Would you consider doing a little blurb on the Bitchery’s favorite erotica titles. And by “erotica” I don’t necessarily mean a really hot romance by XYZ author, but books that are practically porn, but written for women. You know the ones I mean. I’d love to add some titles to my porno box so I’m looking for recommendations. I’ve got no inhibitions when it comes to content.
I gotta say, I’ve read a lot more bad erotica than good thus far. The ones that aren’t outright awful have been…numbingly repetitive, like The Sexual Life of Catherine M., for instance. That said, Emma Holly’s earlier works like Personal Assets, Cooking Up a Storm and Ménage have worked quite well for me, though I’m not sure whether they qualify as erotica or erotic romance. I’ve also heard fantastic things about Hanne Blank, though I haven’t had a chance to read anything by her yet. I’m definitely interested in seeing what titles you bitches come up with, because YAY SMUT. Especially well-written smut. In other words: No images of salmon-like penises battering at the gates of the womb, please.
Likewise, thanks from me (both as Pam Rosenthal and Molly Weatherfield), and from the Crumpet Strumpets over at The Spiced Tea Party
“PS. A Gentleman’s Wager should be reprinted next year in time for the release of the sequel.”
Oh happy day!
The only good book Robin Schone’s ever written, Awaken, My Love would be my recommendation.
I don’t trust erotic short story compilations, as f/f turns me off big time, and there’s usually at least one (especially in “women writing for women” collections).
That’s interesting, Kassiana, because I’m constantly being told by my publishers that f/f doesn’t sell, so I shouldn’t even bother writing it. Which is a shame because I’d like to give it a try.
The problem with anthologies is of course that you get no financial feedback on which stories the reader likes, so unless they’re also publishing individual books, the publishers have no way of knowing that f/f squicks out a lot of readers, and will keep putting it in.
I’ve often wondered about this. Why is f/f such a turn-off for female readers when m/m sells in huge numbers? Is it the fear that reading about women having sex with each other might make you a lesbian? Any theories?
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Ha! Well you know…I was perfectly straight until I started going to a new hairstylist, who happens to be gay. Now I’m queer, too!
I don’t own any erotica that is purely f/f, but the vast majority of my books—and I have about 75 of them stashed in my porno box—FEATURE f/f. I don’t seek it out, but I’m happy enough to read it. Same goes for m/m.
Btw, thanks, ladies, for all the great suggestions. I’m making a list.
There’s more f/f in my Molly Weatherfield Carrie books than there is m/m—I think because I was influenced by a certain French tradition of youthful f/f, that you see in Colette, Story of O, and Marguerite Duras.
And over the long haul, Carrie had done ok saleswise (for better or worse, it’s quite clear to those books’ readers that the stories are basically het with frills).
But I do have a theory about the current craze for m/m—which is that does 2 things at once, both coming straight, as it were, out of 20th century romance traditions:
1. It actualizes the conceit that a guy is really 2 guys, his tough and tender sides. It does all the work a heroine used to have to do, to bring these 2 sides together, leaving her just the fun part.
2. And so, rather than homosexualizing the fiction, it strengthens the sway of compulsory heterosexuality, by presenting Big Real Sex and the sex between a woman and a male dyad/Complete Man.
Which doesn’t mean it can’t be entertaining, problematized, or, even better, both (check out Jane Lockwood’s forthcoming Forbidden Shores. But it does make me nervous to see it become so profoundly compulsory (and of course, it gets up my contrarian writerly instincts—stay tuned).
I think F/F still gets a bad rap because of porn movies—usually it’s two women getting it on for the man’s pleasure.
There are a lot of markets for lesbian and bi short fiction, so I’m not sure why novel publishers still shy away from it.
We had a great discussion of FMF books (or lack thereof) at Lust Bites (http://lustbites.blogspot.com/2007/02/best-of-both-worlds-fmf-themes-in.html).
Christine Warren
Lora Leigh
Emma Holly
Angela McKnight
Morgan Hawke
Jet Mykles (I know dl said to skip the Elf stuff, but I actually liked those in a cheesy, fantasy kind of way, much like how I can’t help liking Jaid Black.)
I just read a story by Sylvia Day and loved it.
I liked the early MaryJanice Davidson erotica.
Cat,my theory…it’s about how the reader identifies with book characters, and we identify one of two ways. I enjoy m/m because I find men attractive and can identify with characters who also are into men, touching them, enjoying them, etc.
Another SB recently posted that she enjoyed f/f because she could identify with what the characters were doing and feeling, but she didn’t enjoy m/m because she didn’t have the body parts to identify physically with male characters and what they were feeling esp during sex.
IMO readers imagine themselves in the place of one of the characters, and our preferences are based on how that character feels, and if the author can draw the reader into sharing those feelings. Since I don’t find women sexually attractive, there is nothing for the author to work with. Therefore, there is no point in reading a book about finding a woman attractive, courting and/or having sex with her…about as interesting as watching grass grow.
Maybe that is why we find characters TSTL so annoying, we can’t identify with them.
dl, the problem I have with your theory (the theory I’ve seen running through a number of comments, here), is that it breaks down when applied to a reader like me. I’m pretty high up on the Kinsey scale and going by that, f/f should be the uber hottest thing to me. According to the theory I’ve seen in this thread, I should completely identify with the women in those type of stories. But in reality, written f/f leaves me cold. I might like the story, but the sex makes me yawn and flip ahead to where the story picks up again.
m/m, on the other hand—whoa, baby! Scorching! I read it and write it and can’t get enough of it, and so far as I know, I’m not “putting myself in the place” of any of the male characters in the stories. I just like reading/writing about hot men doing hot things to each other, regardless of the fact that I have little actual interest in men. And I know, from talking with many other gay women, that I’m not alone in this.
Early Emma Holly, Angela Knight, Morgan Hawke (love Victorious Star!), Jet Mykles, Silvia Violet, Kate Douglas’ Wolf Tales
m/m
AM Riley and she’s got a new one at ummmmmm
errrr
Tanquere?
no here we are.
http://www.torquerepress.com/orders/riley/author.html
I have a copy of Clan O’Brien, the one Mrs. G was raving about. [smirking]
Penis as salmon? I have never, ever read that one. All those nature shows! (“go salmon! Thrust yourself up that waterfall”) This is so perfect. Wow, I am psyched. Look for this imagery in the next Summer Devon novel.
Herring on the other hand—they’re straight out of Spamalot
more writers
Pam Rosenthal
Amelia Elias
Emma Holly (duh)
Cricket Starr
oh and often Sahara Kelly and Kimberly Dean
“Why is f/f such a turn-off for female readers when m/m sells in huge numbers?”
—‘Cause most of us are heterosexual? If one cock turns us on, two will do it even better. Women don’t turn me on, so two of them are even less likely to do so.
“Is it the fear that reading about women having sex with each other might make you a lesbian?”
—No, it’s the major turn-off I get when I attempt f/f, particularly coerced or forced f/f. It makes me sick. The reaction many readers have on here to depictions of anal sex is how I feel about f/f. I don’t mind if that’s your thing, I don’t mind you reading it if you like it, but I want story codes so I can choose not to read it. That’s one good thing about on-line collections of erotica. There’s usually a warning about f/f so I can avoid it.
And thanks, Pam. I’m glad you let us know there’s f/f in the Molly Weatherfield stuff.
Kassiana, could you share some titles of where you’ve read forced or coerced f/f scenes? I’m very curious as to where you’ve encountered this.
Just a note regarding erotica collections; I don’t think anyone will enjoy every story. But unless you are purchasing ones specifically titled “Lesbian”, they aren’t as full of f/f as you might think. It’s fairly easy to identify a f/f story within the first few paragraphs and move on-I just hate to see you miss out on some great writers!
And thanks, Pam. I’m glad you let us know there’s f/f in the Molly Weatherfield stuff.
Hmmm. So you can stay away from it. My unfailing instinct for sales and self-promotion kicks in again. void(0);
confused
Somewhere in the back of my mind, I think I was gearing up to making a point about a kind of imagined equal-opportunity eroticism—the dynamics of power and play presented from multiple angles. Obviously, I need to go back to the drawing board on that one.
But I do know that I very much enjoyed both the f/f and m/m fantasies I indulged in in the Carrie books, at least in part because I was able to play with the nuances of eroticism I sometimes observe or feel between women—or between men.
Mileage, of course, will vary.
No, it’s the major turn-off I get when I attempt f/f, particularly coerced or forced f/f. It makes me sick.
Well, forced sex in any gender combination makes most readers sick. There’s a pretty universal rule in modern erotica that coerced sex isn’t acceptable any more. Ellora’s Cave even say in their guidelines there should be ‘NO rape as titillation. Rape may be used as part of the plot action, especially supporting character development, but MAY NOT be presented in a positive light or with the intent to stimulate erotic excitement or pleasure.’
I’m wondering what books you read forced f/f interaction in, and how old they were.
Incidentally, I might warn you not to read my EC book Almost Human—it’s a m/f story but the heroine is an escort and…shall we say pansexual, whostarts the story off with a female client.
How about Sarah McCarty? I’ve only read her Promises series (don’t care to read any kind of paranormals). You get no-holes-barred nearly porno flick play-by-play action all wrapped up in love and marriage for saps like me. Wunnerful, just wunnerful.
bjl…I lurk here hoping the smarts will rub off onto me. Another theory…we are all unique individuals, it’s totally personal preference, and we’ll enjoy what we enjoy?…I’m off to buy some erotica…
At the risk of oversharing…I think the reason I like m/m stuff is that it’s exotic to me: It’s a dynamic in which I can never truly participate (short of changing my own gender). I can experience (and have experienced) the dynamic of a man and a woman together; ditto two women together. (I’m bisexual.) And those are all fun to read about, but because I can go out and do it myself if I want to, they don’t hold the same fascination as a situation in which I can never truly participate. So in a sense my reasons are the exact opposite of what many people are saying: I like m/m because I *can’t* precisely identify myself with the participants.
(I hope I’m making sense here.)
“Kassiana, could you share some titles of where you’ve read forced or coerced f/f scenes?”
—I read in free on-line erotica areas like Literotica. Unfortunately, they don’t always code for f/f.
I am not at all bothered by coercion or forced seduction when it’s male of female. In fact, I think it’s very hot.
“Hmmm. So you can stay away from it.”
—Would you rather have me buy it, get incredibly offended by it, and tell all my friends not to buy your stuff? 🙂 At least this way I respect your respect of my limits. Oh, and I do love Almost a Gentleman. But then, most of the Internet does, from what I see.
“…forced sex in any gender combination makes most readers sick. There’s a pretty universal rule in modern erotica that coerced sex isn’t acceptable any more.”
—Too bad.
Oops. I mean, of course it’s completely bad. God knows no one here ever has politically incorrect erotic fantasies. 😉
Would you rather have me buy it, get incredibly offended by it, and tell all my friends not to buy your stuff?
You’re right, Kassiana, and thanks for the kind words about Almost a Gentleman. Just out of curiosity, and to help me get get a sense of readers and their limits, I wonder if you read The Bookseller’s Daughter and whether you were offended by the lesbian couple in that book (no explicit sex, just a little neck massage). I’d appreciate the feedback.
“I wonder if you read The Bookseller’s Daughter”
—Nope. The only work of yours I’ve read so far is AAG.
Pam,assuming you are asking for one than one opinion about female couple in BSD, I don’t choose to read gay romance/erotica partly because I may say I won’t like it, I’m also afraid of liking it too much. Call it fear of erotica/porn addiction (or even more so than I have now;-) combined with a misers fear of more frikkin stuff to buy. Anyway, re: BSD I was AMAZED to see a gay couple shown in a positive light—especially in comparison to R. Schone’s Lady’s Tutor’s homosexual incestuous pedophile villain and countless generic puppy killing/baby eating/oh-yeah-let’s-make-him-homo-too villains in Romancelandia. Whatever slight shock I may have had at the time (don’t remember) was more than made up by the fact that though gay they still managed to be decent human beings.
not for the faint-of-heart but HAWT:
poweronestories.com
My shelves are full of my favs…anything by Emma Holly, Angela Knight, Diane Whiteside (I love her Devil series and The Switch is absolute poetry) Robin Schone, especially The Lady’s Tutor—and I just purchased Scandalous Lovers when I was lucky enough to meet Robin at the RT convention…for me, the language is so important, the flow of the words and the poetry of the images has to seduce the mind along with the body.
I’m glad that I wasn’t the only one who liked Scandalous Lovers by Robin Schone. Yeah, the ending came a little too soon, but the subject matter was really compelling for me.
Shannon McKenna—especially Standing in the Shadows.
If you haven’t tried Lisa Valdez’s Passion I think you’re missing out. Especially the last two thirds of the novel.
I second Emma Holly’s Menage…and Strange Attractions, just skim the physics storyline.
From the world of e-books, definitely Joey Hill. Natural Law is fantastic, fantastic, fantastic. Especially since most of the BDSM stuff out there is male dom/female sub, and Natural Law is the opposite. I do tend to the M/M for e-books, Sean Michael, Evangeline Anderson, Ally Blue.
I’ve always loved the way Robin Schone writes, so meeting her was an absolute thrill. Definitely a “fan girl” moment for me!
I LOVE contemporary erotica, especially ones featuring m/m/f menages. I LOVED Lora Leigh’s Bound series & Men of August. Does anyone have more good suggestions? Thanks for any help.
Oh, here’s my faves:
Anything by Robin Schone…her backlist, not an actual book called “Anything”…although that title has distinctive possibilities.
Emma Holly…I recently read her short in an anthology called The Countess’s Pleasure. Hawt. Way hawt.
Lisa Valdez. She’s only got one out. Check out her site and read the excerpt, though. Holy shit. If that’s the BEGINNING of a relationship…I want in.
Here’s my humph:
You know what I’m talking about…Stephanie Laurens. I love her books, and the hero-as-pursuer rocks, but oh.my.god…how can you be so lengthly, and yet so metaphorical at the same time. Also, there’s no talking: Silent Sex, only.
Oh…came across this QUITE by accident!
Thanks so much for the mention Keziah!
I have to echo whoever mentioned Madelyne Ellis’ “A Gentleman’s Wager”
YUMMY!