A few Bitchery readers have sent me a veritable buffet of links regarding a recent J.R. Ward fluff online at her author-hosted bulletin boards. Seems a reader went to Ward’s BB community, and posted her opinion about Ward’s series, specifically about the slang used by some characters, and the gay undertones in some of the scenes, and asked if anyone noticed the same things she noted.
I can’t link to the thread in question as it’s for members only. But from my understanding, the writer of the original post was blasted online by “rabid fangirls” of Ward’s community, and ultimately ended up banned from the boards. Since I can’t directly read the thread or witness the alleged harshness that greeted this reader’s questions, I have rely on what others have said.
What strikes me as curious is that a few bloggers hold Ward responsible for the behavior of the fans on her site. DishingDiva states that the boards are hosted and moderated by Ward and thus the attacks and banning were condoned as she must have been aware that they were happening.
Now, we here at SBTB, we are big fans of authors behaving in entertaining fashion, and we are more than aware that there are some people out there on the wild, wild internet that take their reading very, very seriously. But is an author responsible for the allegedly buttheaded behavior of their readership?
I pose the same question to myself – if we were (un)fortunate to attract a troll, would it be my responsibility to ban and delete that user’s posts until they signed up again under a different user name from a different IP? Looking at it from a “person who hosts the discussion” perspective, I’d have to say that I’m not entirely responsible for what other people say. If someone signed up for membership and started posting after every review how much Candy and I suck and how we’re absolutely horrible people to be so mean to those nice romance writers like Cassie Edwards, it’d be annoying but I’d probably let it stand, since hey, that’s their opinion and they’re welcome to it, even on our site.
In fact, I’d lose credibility if I started deleting the posts I disagreed with, or banning users who caused trouble on the site. I’m not saying I love the squabbles just for their own sake, but no one here has disgreed by name calling or demanding that they be banned from the register of Bitches. If that’s what happened on Ward’s site, if she deleted the original poster because she didn’t want gay undertones discussed on the site, well, it’s her prerogative to edit her boards however she wants, though I’d disagree heartily with that decision.
I also know the community here is pretty intelligent and enjoys a good discussion, even a heated one from multiple points of view, and would probably ignore a troll until it went away. Or at least have some delicious fun at its expense. At the very least, I can always count on the Bitchery members to disagree with class and style, even when heated issues light up the stats like someone farted on a match.
So do I think Ward is responsible for the behaviour of her fans? Nah. Was it a dumb move to ban a user who asked questions that some fans didn’t like? Yup. Does it suck that people can be buttnoids online? Sure it does. But then, some people out there think Candy and I are the buttnoids.
Absolutely. I put down books that contain crappy humans as characters. They both have to bring good features to the table. When I was a teenager, I read a book by Sheryl Henke in which the hero – after meeting the heroine and therefore within the bounds of their attraction/affection – sleeps with a whore. Screw that! Put it down. If I wanted angst or irredeemable assholes for leads, I’d real Literature.
I am not sure I have ever understood the concept of identification with either heroine or hero.
For me, both characters have to be written in such a way that I can see them in people I know. Well, sans the SEAL training, or the millions, or the title. They have both to be people. Furthermore, people whose reactions and motives I could understand even if I would *ahem* never make them.
So I can defend Meg Moore, the heroine of Suzanne Brockmann’s “The Defiant Hero” even while other people call her TSTL. I can believe someone reacting like that—completely dominated by fear—without losing respect for the character.
Does that mean I identify with her? Or does it mean that, for me, SBrockmann did her job as a writer providing a rounded characterization of Meg Moore?
Robin, while I understand why the use of rabid or for that matter zealous would make a lot of people uncomfortable, I have witnessed some instances in which the piling on the dissenting or critical voice is rather similar to a shark feeding frenzy—both in ferocity and cruelty.
It seems to me, though, that one could find such… devoted fans for books of any stripe, given time and resources to look for them. What is curious is how occasionally a particularly vocal group of them will latch unto a series of books or an author. I really can’t say why… and I’m not sure the über alpha hero can be blamed for that, since there are plenty of those in Romanceland, and only some generate this level of noise.
I believe it comes back to the author. When the author is willing not only to play along but encourage the continuation of the fantasy it becomes more personal to the readers. We are all social creatures who crave acceptance. When (some) users log into this fantasy world they become accepted by other members, get to converse to the author themselves or even a bit more extreme get to talk with the character themselves. The communication can create a feeling of belonging and loyality. When a perceived outsider comes in with what they believe is a “dissing” attitude toward their buds and author they will get emotional about it.
I see this all the time in message boards and forums of all types of individuals/businesses. There are those regulars who end up ruling the site and those who lurk quietly.
It is up to the board owner to set the tone. If Ward were my customer I would suggest she be very careful. I do not have access to her stats but from what I can see, there are a few suggestions I would make. First of all I had read some of dylans and dishing divas blogs on this and I tend to believe their side of the story. Ward really needs to consider more moderate fans.
Many of the comments made by the cellies indicate that there are 3000 + happy members on her board, but her membership does not really indicate this. It appears that she has 3371 current members of which only 1088 have ever bothered to post (236 of those have only posted one time). Since this MB is a required sign up, those joining probably had the intention of participating or just quietly surfing, but the 32% particpation rate would not be the goal I would have a customer set for a participation based site. She needs to ask herself WHY only 1/3 of those signing up have participated. As I don’t have access to her sites stats and her goals, nor have I done any user testing I will not make a professional thoughts of why this low rate.
Even if all of the 3000+ members were happy participants, assuming she has sold a whole heck more than 3000 books, her percentage of fans who have not logged into her site and MB should be higher than those who have. When rapid fans start turning off members and then spreading their rants to others blogs, it may turn off potential future readers. I happen to like her stories (even the bi/homosexual issues and 50/ludacrus are ok with me) and hope that she considers her reader base as a whole. I also hope her more adoring fans consider that many people will have different opinions than than own and striking out at them will not support your author.
I don’t think I’d ever support my own message boards, strictly to talk about my books, both for this reason and because it seems a bit ego-heavy. Always thought it would be kind of cool to have a writer’s forum, where writers got to together to talk about their work, though. I know there’s Absolute Write, but they’re just too big for my tastes.
I believe it comes back to the author. When the author is willing not only to play along but encourage the continuation of the fantasy it becomes more personal to the readers.
I completely agree that the author shares complicity in the character of a messageboard of which she is administrator and which is on her site. I checked out the member list on her MB last night, and Ward has posted around 2700 times. Her characters (!) have posted numerous times as well, with the Brotherhood making posts into the HUNDREDS individually (the women in the series, not surprisingly perhaps, are mostly in the single or low double digits). So I agree that an author sets both a tone for the board’s focus AND a tone for discussion (and has a great deal of power in setting limits, as she’s considered the queen of that particular hive of discussion).
OTOH, I think that the nature of certain books DOES seem to attract more enthusiastic fans, and I do think it often has to do with the character of the hero(es). In the world of In Death readers, for example, it seemed to me (from the discussions I saw and had with other readers) that most people read the series for Roarke. A number of readers commented that they didn’t even like Eve, or at least felt she didn’t “appreciate” Roarke as she should (can you tell that it’s all about Eve for me? I’m still made at Roarke for forcing her to marry him so quickly—bully that he is). I don’t think it’s a phenomenon born of a single book, but a series like Ward’s seems almost custom-made for a more direct reader connection to the world of the series. And I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that per se; I DO think it’s absolutely possible to be sane and to be a big fan of a fictional series and of the worldbuilding there. And I think a lot of readers can be this kind of fan while understanding that it is, just fiction.
As for the so-called “rabid” fans, I don’t excuse or condone their aggressive behavior one bit, but I think the term “rabid” unfortunately ends up doing to them what they are doing to readers who don’t toe the party line. They might behave rabidly but if an author seems to be goading them on or tacitly encouraging them (which we’ve seen some authors do), then isn’t it more complicated as to what these fans actually are as opposed to what their behavior signifies?
The part of this whole phenomenon of the author’s warriors (and I’m not specifically referring to Ward here, since I don’t know the reality of her situation) that icks me out, frankly, is my disbelief that any sane author could actually respect readers who go to extreme lengths to support a series or a character or an author herself. And if there is no respect there, then what’s going on? The potential answers to that question are what really bother me, because IMO that kind of relationship between an author and zealous fans is not only a disservice to the mainstream readership, but to these more devoted fans, as well.
Been reading the responses, now I have yet another question. If JR is making enough money selling her books to her rabid fans – Cellies!?!?! – is she going to care about her moderate fans? Seems like the first are going to buy anything and everything she writes. The second is going to stick with her until her books turn to crap in their hands. Another author I’m thinking of who I could have sworn was self-destructing (IMHO) still carries on. She’s still got her rabid fan base, the moderates seem to have wandered away.
I don’t know about JRWard herself, but I would imagine that even if all 3300+ members of her MB were rabid fans, that’s not quite enough copies to make a living.
Of course, take that with a ton of salt—I have no idea how publishing works.
All I know is, she should be writing Sub / Dom werewolf paranormals cos then she could name a hero Furry Sadist, and quit dancing ‘round it.
I’d like to speak out as a reader, a fan of JR Ward’s series and a member of the now infamous message board.
I didn’t know about this until I read Sibyl’s blog and then I followed all the links.
You know what disturbs me the most? That it is somehow unacceptable to be both a fan AND have a critical eye.
A friend, a fellow read of the series, had warned me that the mb would turn ugly. Since it was at the opening and I’d never lived through this type of conflict before, I was skeptical. Boy, was she right!!!!
AngieZ has the right of it. There’s this thing within the Cellies to post your member number as a footnote/signature. Well, I signed up the day the mbs opened, May 4th. After all this hoopla, I checked out my own statistics: member no in the 40s, 13 posts to date (about 10 the first week).
Why did this happen? First of all, the boards were waaaaay to busy, and a lot of times with “I love you WARDen” or whichever character. I just wanted the inside scoop. Fortunately, someone came up with a Highlights thread that tracks tidbits about the characters/plots/speculation. Now, it’s the only thing I really visit on the boards.
Secondly, I was very perplexed by the chats “with” the characters. WTF? Personally and culturally, I can suspend disbelief into the stratosphere but that just seemed weird to me. And that the members would continue to talk to the characters AFTER the chats…
It turned very clique-like rather fast. There is all this slang I have no idea about. I can’t even tell you when they started calling JR WARDen!!! Some things were alluded to on both Dylan’s and DD’s blogs I sincerely read for the first time. See how easy it is to be out of the loop?
I noticed in the Dishing Diva posts that some of the zellie cellies are in complete denial, and I’d seen the signs. How can anyone deny that there are homoerotic themes in there? Just the fact that 6 ultra-virile men live in the same house is a hint!!! And the only help is an old man? And I think the language speaks for itself.
I have 3 other friends (including the prescient one above)and none of us really dare participate on these boards. It seems either too dangerous or a waste of time.
I actually share Dylan’s opinions as stated in her post. I just figured out early on (with some help) that if you don’t criticize, you don’t get ostricized on the BDB mbs.
JR Ward did a few blogchats to promote LA, her latest book and the one that spawn this battle. I was rather annoyed, all fan that I am, at how the Cellies took over each and every blog comments! I posted each time, because there was also books to win, but I thought it rather rude for strangers to invade like that. As my friend H says, they make you feel left out…even on sites that aren’t their own!!!!
As for Ward’s silence over this, I must say I’m disappointed. She participates willingly enough in the boards but can’t say a word when things get ugly? Even to try to calm everyone? That does not seem right, especially when she was online THE SAME DAY.
I know my post is loooong but I’d just like to add that I do not get the PG 13 thing. People seem to understand this but I don’t. If the books use foul language, why can’t I, if only to quote the books? Especially since you have to sign in??? On an adults-only message board???
And this is certainly not the first or the last incident of its kind. Is it me or are romance fans unable to discuss books like adults? Or are we all in danger of being struck by a virtual hammer all the time?
Where are my bonbons, I’m feeling depressed..
By keeping silent, this is the message I get from Ward. I also get the impression, and perhaps I’m biased now, that had Dylan’s original post been “OMG!OMG!I LOVE YOU! I LOVE YOU!†Ward herself would have responded.
by holly
actually NO as this isnt allowed either, end of the day Jr cant think or post for her fans, all that is ask is basic respect which aint asking much.
As a cellie who went to most of the blogs offering LA freebies, I’m not sure what the problem is with JRW fans descending on those blogs to comment. I’m sure the blog owners appreciated the traffic. From what I could tell, JRW was mostly very good about responding to questions, Holly’s experience notwithstanding. I really don’t see how fans commenting on those blogs would be considered rude per se, unless the comments themselves were rude.
And BTW, I actually remembered reading Holly’s questions on the blogs and hunted around to find it. I posted on that blog and JRW answered me twice (and no, I didn’t call her Warden or talk like a Cellie). Holly’s comment was posted when JRW wasn’t actually on the blog and when she returned later, from what I gather she started answering comments posted much later. At the end of that session, JRW apologised for missing any questions so if Holly really wanted to know answers to her questions, she could have e-mailed JRW or PM-ed her on the boards. That’s what I would have done. I’m not saying Holly shouldn’t have been disappointed – I would have been, too – but I think it’s making a mountain out of a molehill.
I’ve lurked on the boards a lot and posted a few times. Yes, there are cliques. But I don’t WANT to be part of the clique so I don’t really care. All I care about is finding out tidbits about future books and getting excerpts from the characters. Are the constant OMG OMG I LOVE U’s annoying? Absolutely. But do I care? Not really, although they make hunting around for relevant info a little more tedious. Do I think some of them are disturbed. Yes, actually. But I don’t and never have cared enough to spend time thinking about it. You know what? There are Trekkies and there are Cellies. If that doesn’t work for some people, well, why should they care that it does for others?
Having said that….yes, I do draw the line at inappropriate behaviour so even if I think you’re a crazy fan, I still expect you to be a decent human being. So I can’t excuse what happened to Dylan.
As for JRW commenting on the bad behaviour on her boards…well, at this point, I think it’s pretty much a no-win situation for her. Yes, some of her fans went way out of line but as I didn’t see what Dylan and her friends posted aside from the initial post, it’s hard to say whether or not they also crossed the line. Maybe a carefully worded private e-mail to JRW asking why she hasn’t responded publicly can offer some answers. I don’t know – I’m just speculating.
A Fan of J. R. Ward was kind enough to forward me the text of Ward’s answer to the recent dust-up. Seems she was in the middle of edits and had no knowledge of waht was going on. But the gist of her reply is, it wasn’t an issue with the contest of the original thread but the tone of both sides responding to it that caused the post to be removed.
Maybe a carefully worded private e-mail to JRW asking why she hasn’t responded publicly can offer some answers. I don’t
know – I’m just speculating.
Actually, we did email JRW regarding this. We still have yet to receive a response. Which, I suppose part of me understands. I’m not sure I’d want to get drawn into a huge discussion, either.
But I remember not too long ago there was a huge dust up on the Judith McNaught BB at simonsays.com. Now, in that case, I didn’t hold JM herself responsible at all, because it’s a publisher moderated forum. But she DID say something to the more rabid of fans. She wasn’t rude about it and she didn’t get in the middle of the argument, but she did say that she expected better. Perhaps Ward could have done the same?
As for my comments not being responded to, it’s really not that big of a deal. You’re right that I could have and possibly should have emailed her directly, but what bothered me is that the comments surrounding mine were responded to, but I was skipped completely. Which, again, is her right. I suppose I just felt slighted.
But the gist of her reply is, it wasn’t an issue with the contest of the original thread but the tone of both sides responding to it that caused the post to be removed.
Again, this I understand. I didn’t see any of this myself, but as a moderator, if things were getting heated and insults were being traded, I’d delete the thread, too. Especially if said posters were warned, as they apparently were.
The thing I don’t understand is why Dylan and Jazz were banned. Was that really necessary? Perhaps a private message to them from the moderators would have done just as well? But complete banishment? That just seems extreme, don’t you think?
all that is ask is basic respect which aint asking much.
No, it’s not asking much. But I think respect has to go both ways. Shouldn’t Dylan and Jazz have been respected, too? And were there “Cellies” who were banned as well? Because I did see some of the comments they made in the second thread on the board, and they weren’t polite at all, nor were they respectful. Perhaps some of them were, but a couple of the worst offenders are still posting there (I know, because I’ve seen it with my own eyes).
And there’s one more thing I’d like to clarify:
Several times I’ve heard (or read, as the case may be) “They just did it for traffic”. Well, until the Smart Bitches posted this, we didn’t GET any traffic from it. The Dishing Diva certainly did, but she’s not a member of Sanctuary’s Finest, so saying that Dylan and Jazz only posted on the BDM to gain traffic for our site doesn’t hold water. Not only that, but we don’t get paid to blog. We do it because we like reading romance novels and wanted to review them. What do we care if other people read us? If were were charging a fee we might, but what do we really have to gain from new readers?
Boy, my timing was impeccable. I missed all of this particular discussion until after I read my first BDB book this week – so I went to the series mostly virginal (hee, that’s akin to “kind of pregnant”, right?).
I see this issue from the evil-insurance-empire pov where we’re constantly worried about liability and responsibility for things like this. Seems to me that some responsibility could be attributed to the author if it is true that she had active knowledge of what was going on…but that seems far from certain based on the discussion kerfuffle I’ve seen (not to mention SB Sarah’s update upthread). I fall into the camp of giving the author the benefit of the doubt and don’t apportion blame to her because, based on my own personal experience, I know there can be days and days when I don’t even think about opening up that internet browser because I know that way lies madness and I have just too much to deal with to add a dollop of crazy on top of everything else.
Oh man, me too! This series is begging for some slash fiction. Someone out there has to have written it. ::Goes in search of some BDB slash::
I was also forwarded a copy of the response J.R. posted. I guess better late than never, but I’m not buying that she was so into editing that she had NO knowledge of the incident and the subsequent fallout. She had plenty of time to visit the boards several times and play with the zellies after the drama. Heck, even the “Brothers” were on there posting messages! Seems to me like she would also have the time to check and respond to the e-mail Holly sent to her. Sorry, but my b.s. meter is off the charts.
Mad respect lost on this end.
yes several of the @cellies were banned Holly, though not permanentley so. This would most likely have been the case with dylan and jazz also but then all the blog stuff happened then seriousley after what ya have seen posted would ya let them join your site?
yeah if you wanted/enjoy arguements but unless they are willing to abide by the board rules it wont happen.