There have been some pretty heated discussions going on lately at the Romantic Times Readers’ Roundtable Messageboard and at the AAR Potpourri Messageboard about Anne Stuart’s new book, Cold as Ice. Apparently, Stuart had the audacity to write about…oh, steel yourselves and be sure to have your hartshorn ready, ladies…a man who’s had them homosexual encounters.
The threads are huge, and I admit, time and my blood pressure aren’t allowing me to read through all of them. Some of the old standard canards have been brought up, from “OMG IT’LL RUIN ROMANCE BECAUSE IT’S VIOLATING THE ONE MAN/ONE WOMAN RULE!” to “OMG IT’LL RUIN ROMANCE BECAUSE HOMOSEXUALITY IS AN ABOMINATION!” Sigh.
The kerfuffling began with this report from LLB on the 2006 RWA conference included this snippet about Stuart’s upcoming book:
…the hero, a spy who slept with a man in Black Ice, has total control over his body, which allows him to have sex with men or women, whatever the job entails, without any emotional feelings whatsoever. At one point in the upcoming release, the hero informs the heroine that he kissed her to distract her in order to knock her out. When she asks what he would do if he needed to distract a man, he answers, “I would do the same thing.” Cold as Ice will be released in November. Given Harlequin’s sometimes old-fashioned reputation, I asked what the editors at MIRA thought about this. Stuart indicated hers loved it and that other editors who heard about it thought it was “cool.”
I noticed this bit of information when I first read the conference report last week, and it raised a brow, sure—but probably not for the usual reasons why anyone would raise their brow at the idea of a bisexual hero for a mainstream romance novel.
Why can’t a guy in a romance novel just enjoy cock because he enjoys cock, and not be a freak, emotionally cut-off to the point of pathology or a sociopathic villain who’s looking to shag anything that moves and a great deal that doesn’t? Not that Romancelandia is populated by the healthiest of heroes, but c’mon, now. A guy can like cock or cock AND pussy without being a sociopathic freak, you know. No, trust me, I know this, if you know what I mean, and I think you do..
I’m here to explode some myths about bisexuals. Hold on to your panties, people, because they are ground-shaking revelations of the first order.
1. Not all of them are polyamorous.
2. Not all of them are into group sex. Just because they’re omnivorous doesn’t mean they want all of it, all of the time.
3. Not all of them are indiscriminately slutty. Liking both sets of bits doesn’t mean they’re sex fiends, or that they don’t care who’s attached to those bits. That’s like saying omnivores don’t care about the quantity or quality of their food, simply because they enjoy both meat and vegetables.
4. Being bisexual doesn’t mean they’re wishy-washy or unable to make up their minds about what they want sexually. That’s like saying an omnivore is somebody who can’t make up their minds whether they like meat or vegetables, so they must be confused vegetarians or carnivores.
Furthermore, having a sexual encounter with the same sex doesn’t, in my opinion, immediately make somebody gay or bi. A lot depends on context of the encounters. Would a man who was raped by another man be considered gay, or bi? What about a man who had sex with other men strictly for the money? What about a man who was in a confined situation in which women were scarce for extended periods of time (as in jail or a ship)? What about a guy who was curious about what it would feel like to sleep with another man, but otherwise felt no real attraction to them?
And to flip this around: would a person who self-identifies as gay but married and slept with somebody of the opposite gender so the person could serve as a beard be considered bisexual?
People have this tendency to immediately go “AHHHH TEH GAY GERMS!” and label somebody bisexual or homosexual based on a few encounters, when to me, the true test boils down to: are you able to fall in love with a person of that gender? Does your interest immediately perk up when you see an attractive specimen? In short, are you attracted at a primal level to people of that gender? By that standard, I’m not sure that the hero of Cold as Ice is, as described, bisexual—he just happens to be willing to take on the cock for king and country.
But back to the debate. Of all the objections I’ve read, the one about “OMG IT VIOLATES THE MAN/WOMAN COVENANT OF ROMANCE” to be the most puzzling, because dude: it’s romance about a man and a woman. Just because it makes you go “EW, he touched peener in the past!” doesn’t make the hero any less monogamous or any less in love with the heroine by the end of the book.
And I won’t even begin to address all the “you can write it, but don’t call it romance—it’s actually EROTICA!” claims I keep stumbling over in the discussions. I’ve ranted plenty over that issue already.
Something else I keep stumbling over: people keep vigorously complaining about their right to be asshats without being called out on their asshattedness. “Stop judging the judgmental” etc. etc. etc. And true, people have their right to their opinions—but we also have a right to call you on your bigoted reactions. Look at it this way: if the hero to Stuart’s book, instead of shagging men in the past, had shagged black women in the past, and some people railed against the book in disgust, what would you think of those people? In that context, let’s look at some of the comments I’ve culled from various messages:
“…it [sic] warped , dysfuntional and abnormal …”
“I won’t be buying it because it’s too far outside my comfort zone.”
“Either way, it sounds gross”
“No thanks, I had trouble with this with Laurell K Hamilton and Anne Rice, but got past it because the men in question were not human.”
Mmmm-hmmmm.
I’m glad a mainstream romance author has a protagonist who’s had some homosexual encounters in his past, but I’m disappointed that Stuart, who’s pushed some interesting envelopes in the past, seems to be sticking with tradition in making those same-sex encounters traumatic.
That Val Kilmer thing is just too awful for words. Naughty Monica!!
I was never a huge Kilmer fan, but who can forget The Volleyball Game? Now… ruined. Frankly, after that scene (and the blue-tinted sex that followed), I just turn Top Gun off. Who needs all the flying bits? Snore! Put the euphemistic airplanes away and shag each other proper, boys!
Bitches, can you PLEASE help us out with some quality mantitty soon? Things are getting desperate!
1. Monica, that was just mean. MEAN. Damn. Waah. BITCH.
2. Stef, if I hadn’t already planned to buy your book your post would make me. I’m sorry those asswipes are the reason you realised you had to come out of the closet to stand by your daughter, but I’m glad you did. PFLAG, anyone?
Stef, you are an awesome mom, and I wish your daughter the best. Tell her chin up, and that a buncha bitches are rooting for her. It’s a shame that you’ve felt like you’ve had to keep it fairly quiet because of how it may affect you, your family and your career; people are ASSWIPES sometimes.
Portland, OR is very gay friendly, by the way. More lesbians per capita than anywhere else, I heard. ALL THE MORE REASON WHY YOU SHOULD VISIT, DAMMIT.
The Val Kilmer thing doesn’t bother me. If celebrities all looked like that, average folks wouldn’t have so much to live up to.
Here’s to Angelina with a faint moustache and a double-wide ass!
Also, SamG: I don’t know how many gay romances feature anal sex, but many gay men I know in real life don’t enjoy it very much, and stick with oral sex and handjobs. I don’t know if this reality is reflected in the books, however.
Personally I’ve learned that I can suspend my disbelief for sex acts I’ve tried that I don’t particularly like if the author does a good enough job of portraying how much the characters are enjoying it. Emma Holly does a pretty good job of portraying anal sex as being enjoyable, for example, even though for me it’s been OWWW and more OWWWW.
You know, thank you is just too wimpy to express how I feel, but it’s the best I can do here – so please know how much I appreciate your kindness an dthoughtful words.
Not gonna lie – it’s a seriously mind-blowing thing for a child to sit down and say, “Mom, there’s something I have to tell you. I’m gay.” This is about 6 months after she broke up with a guy she’d talked about marrying – a Marine, no less. Mr. Macho. Go figure. But I’ve been told that a lot of people, when they’re trying to sort things out, will go into opposite sex relationships, because, well, they’re supposed to. She says she finally gets it, that she feels better than she has, ever, her whole life. This is my ‘difficult’ child – the moody, stormy one. She says, when she came to this conclusion, she felt at peace, and self-aware for the first time. I can’t see how that’s a bad thing.
My husband’s okay – but I’m pretty sure he’s in denial. We’ll see how he responds when she brings someone home.
My younger daughter – 19 and a sophomore in college – said, “Cool! That means I get ALL the wedding money!”
(yes, she was kidding – she’s the levity in our household)
Some man titty for lovelysalome: http://maddwitch.angeltowns.net/smitch/abs31.jpg
Holy shit! I just went and looked – Monica, thou art cruel! My eyes – my eyes!!!! I am SO going on a diet, starting as soon as I polish off these chcolate chip cookies.
On a related note, VH1s Best Week Ever is great – I always catch it by accident, but when I do – I laugh a lot. Great writing.
Steff,
I don’t know you, but I wish your daughter luck wherever she goes; and I am sorry that homophobic dickheads have to cause you and your daughter pain.
Stay Strong….
Stef, I wish you and your daughter the very best! You are both very strong women in my book. I really admire her for choosing to be true to herself. I’m with Candy, you’ve got a whole lot of bitches behind you! (Even a brand new one!)
Mantitty… and a whole lot more. My poor husband just saw this and said (in full-on pale, mumbling Englishman mode), “I-I just can’t compete with that.”
Stef, I know your daughter probably wouldn’t appreciate your following her around, shaking a fist at every mean person she’ll encounter, but I certainly understand the urge! The best revenge against people like that is exactly what you’re doing—loving her with all your heart. And how could you not? She sounds amazing.
Amy E., just to clarify, I actually would be extremely pissed if someone said to me, “You’re a racist.” But I’d be more than willing to talk to them if they said, “That sounded racist.” One is an accusation and an insult, and one is an opening to a dialogue. But I do hope I never hear either. *g*
Many people who think homosexuality is wrong wouldn’t stand idly by while gays are being hurt, I think, but it’s another thing entirely once you move into more abstract realms, such as enacting legislation that would affect their legal rights. They can’t see the hurt being done, so it’s easier to write off or justify.
Candy, I have a ton of respect for your willingness to stand up to Phelps and his antichrist brigade. Thank you. I hope you didn’t actually bap your head earlier, because you just rephrased my metaphor. I didn’t mean that nonviolent homophobes see gay-bashing as a spectator sport, I meant they give tacit permission for it by legislating discrimination. I suppose my elderly, “christian” neighbors (using quotes because I don’t think venomous gossip is Jesuslike) would call the cops if they saw one of us being mugged. We’re helpful neighbors, after all—we shovel their sidewalk in winter. But these folks helped pass a law that could bar me from my spouse’s hospital room even in extremis—the amendment that invalidates our Canadian marriage also could negate our medical power of attorney for one another. I doubt it would occur to them that losing the chance to say goodbye would hurt worse than a beating. And don’t believe that couldn’t happen, because it already has, in Virginia. I would rather someone hate me to my face than smile to my face and deny my right to public recognition of my choice of mate.
The difference between covert and overt homophobia, between physical and non-physical injury, is probably not apparent to most people who are gay-friendly but don’t have day-to-day experience of the problem—much like racial prejudice, I think. That’s why coming out to family and friends is such a powerful thing to do. It suddenly makes the attacks personal.
Speaking of which—Stef, I wish my own mother had been as strong and reslient as you are. Your daughter is lucky to have you, and her candy-assed sorority does not deserve a member with her guts and style. Blessings to you both.
Once upon a time in a galaxy far, far away called the 1950’s there were laws to keep people of different races from getting married! The empire ruled the universe and the rebels sat and waited for the strength to fight and change these laws and many others that oppressed people simply because their skins were different shades and their hair was different textures from those in power. Then one day a woman, tired from her day of work and weary of constant oppression, refused to give up her seat on a cosmic bus, and thus a revolution was born. This revolution began in a small, small place, in relation to the rest of the empire but it was a bright galvanizing point for others, a moment of extreme defiance, breathtaking in its simplicity but explosive nonetheless. As the revolution spread the empire realized what fucking dickheads they were and the ridiculous laws began to change. Tho there is still much work to be done and we must be forever vigilant, because for some reason fucking dickheads keep getting born every day, but eventually enough people in power tend to begin thinking rationally rather than in fear. Once women could not vote nor hold property and were accused of being witches and were tortured and hanged and burned. Often people don’t use their brains for thinking rationally. They use them for panicking and running about like chickens with their heads cut off, and they like to point at rational people and say they will be the cause of the downfall of the great and moral world when the true festering sore of our society is them, the fucking dickheads.
It is okay to lie to other people about who you are, especially strangers, but it isn’t okay to lie to yourself, and when you finally admit who and what you are it is your own revolution of the mind. Telling others is a release and is very brave. Never underestimate the courage of someone strong enough to live their life honestly with everyone but don’t ever expect others to accept and understand. Fear lives in the spines of most of us and keeps us from doing that which we are meant to do. I know why we’re here. We’re supposed to love and help each other. Simple but so hard to do. The enemy is not “the others”. The enemy is fear.
I think Dick Cheney is really Darth Vader and his daughter is Luke Skywalker.
The difference between covert and overt homophobia, between physical and non-physical injury, is probably not apparent to most people who are gay-friendly but don’t have day-to-day experience of the problem—much like racial prejudice, I think.
This is where I think Sunita’s point about the difference between individual actions and cumulative or institutional consquences comes in. For example, how much discriminatory legislation gets passed simply because people fail to vote? Or because they hear some soundbyte that substitutes for actual analysis of the policy (and for anyone who actually reads your voter’s booklet—do you think those explanations are actually meant to provide clear guidance to the average voter?)?
Our social, legal, cultural and political institutions are the cumulative resuslt of shared individual will. Unfortunately, besides the fact that pinning discrimination on an institution diffuses and de-personalizes responsibility, it can also overstate the public will. How often do we look at our institutions and feel the problems are just too big and too entrenched to change? If we think our institutions are NEVER going to change, then they won’t, because we see them as independently and monolithically powerful. And we will allow them to shape our individual will, which, while seemingly passive, has the same effect as if we actively sought to make things the way they are. We might say, “why vote when things never change,” rather than, “the more people who vote the more quickly things can change.” Not everyone has to be a social activist to effect change; we’re all impacting the system all the time whether we vote or not, care or not, pay attention or not. It takes less than most people think, IMO, to be engaged with out political and social institutions in a mindful way. Just getting more people to vote would be practically revolutionary at this point.
As for me, to be brutally honest, I’m heartbroken for her. No getting around it – being gay is a hard life, filled with pain and meaness and discrimination. Who would want that for their child?
Stef, I don’t know how my parents would have handled it if it had turned out that either my brother or I were gay, but I do remember how my Dad, in particular, was nervous about us spending a lot of time with a gay family member, so I think it would have been tough for them.
I’m sure your daughter is grateful to have so much support from you; obviously she trusted you enough to tell you, so she knew you’d be there for her. As for the course of her life, there are quite a few comunities in the US where gay couples can live and thrive. I live in Northern California, and I can tell you that from Santa Cruz to San Francisco to Sonoma this is an area that is very welcoming to gay folks. Keep in mind, for example, that San Francisco was the first city to legalize gay marriage (not just civil domestic partnership agreements).
Certainly there will be prejudice and ugliness that your daughter will have to confront over the years, but I don’t think you have to condemn her to a difficult life quite yet. In fact, I think one of the greatest gifts you can give her is to visualize a life for her filled with love and happiness and peace. We are all so used to defining our happiness by what we see outside, but the mind has a very powerful influence on how we experience reality and what we create in our lives. And no matter how old we are as kids, our parents still influence our level of confidence. So if you can muster yours and give your daughter the faith that she can have a life in which she feels happy and accepted and loved by those she chooses to love, then she will be better equipped to bring that into her own life. I know you’re scared and worried for her, and certainly this is natural and even important in staying vigilant against the prejudice you don’t want to have touch her (or you). But also know that the world is not just one big unsafe place for her and that you will also have many opportunities to celebrate with her over the years, too. I really believe that we help create in our lives what we expect out of the world, and the more happiness you expect in her world, the more you offer her that gift in her own life. I’m confident that both of you will be fine.
But he has the accent … which is a total plus in his favor. 😉
Wow. This is a staggeringly well articulated thread (overall. I believe the woman who came here seemingly just to hate on Monica would be called a troll in net speak.)
So many points I would agree with…
First, I was interested in the bi thread. As a bi girl in the MidWest, raised Baptist, hearing other people defend (and even articulate – especially the comments about loving the person, not the plumbing) makes me feel a little better centered. Stef, I just wish my mom felt the same way. After a face off several years ago, the only way we can have a relationship is to avoid many topics all together. She’s my mom, and she loves me, but she doesn’t fight for my right to love whoever I love. Less of an issue currently, as I haven’t been dating anyone in a long time, but a subtext to our conversations.
Being called a racist makes me feel like a failure as a person. I would prefer to be called a racist, have my attention brought to the harm I’m doing, than for someone to stay silent. Most of my life was spent in a homogenous setting, and I was a teenager before I came face to face with the racism inherent in the church I was raised in. A visiting speaker addressed the congregation about the evils of rock music, and used Janet Jackson as an example, but without elaboration on why she was *specifically* evil, I went to the man afterward and asked. Part (most) of his reasoning was, “because she is black.” My response was naive, but sincere, because I said, “I thought God loved everyone?” Apparently, non-WASPs and perverts (esp. gays) are not included in that, according to that particular sect of Baptist. Of course, they also believed that all other churches have it wrong, and everyone not in their specific little club are going to hell. If that truly turned out to be the division, hell would be more appealing – at least I’d have good company 😉
I don’t know how to fix any of it, but I really believe that discussions like the ones here are positive progress.
Yes, Englishmen can get away with saying almost anything they like because of the accent but eventually you have to look beyond that, as I’ve learned from hard experience, and listen to what they’re actually saying as opposed to how they say it.
Parents worry about their children…period. I know my poor parents worried about me and I have found from talking to my sisters that everyone worries about me while I go on my merry way and do things that shock and amaze them. The things that cause worry are usually things we can do nothing about. If there was a quick, painless resolution we’d come to it and move on. Resolution is easy. Moving on is the hard part.
I have a joke about baptists so if you are offended by jokes about religion please stop reading. It is the only joke I know so I tell it to everybody so if you’ve heard it before…sorry:
A person goes to Heaven and is taken on a tour by an angel. The angel shows this person the mansions, the streets paved with gold, the choir, the marching harp band, the fluffy clouds, and all the people keeping company with each other and singing or talking or practicing playing a harp while marching in formation. Finally, the angel leads the person by a closed door. The person has seen no other closed doors in Heaven and is curious to find one. “What’s in there?” the person asks. The angel puts its angel finger to its angel lips and says, “Be quiet,” in a very low voice. “The baptists are behind that door. They don’t know the rest of us are up here.”
Re Englishmen and ‘the accent’, there are lots of different English accents. Which one is it that everyone likes?
Hmm … I agree with quite everything you have said.
Just … that ‘too far from my confort zone’ comment can just indicate a preference for different kind of contents, more to the person’s liking.
I mean, I don’t have anything against homosexual or bisexual people.
I’ve even read some sex scenes with bi/homosexual couples involved and was not disgusted by them in any way.
But I’d rather read a male/female romance story, because that is what appeals to me the most. I just don’t get to be emotionally involved when the couple is not heterosexual.
It’s just a matter of preference.
And for this reason, I’d like to pick up a romance and be sure that I’m going to read about an heterosexual couple.
That said, I think that even a bi or homosexual story can be called ‘romance’.
Just not a standard one, but being ‘standard’ it’s not a quality, just a characteristic like many others.
thera – not offended at all. That might be the funniest Baptist joke I’ve ever heard!
:cheese:
Speaking of race and romance, Chatting_with_Joyfully_Reviewed @ yahoogroups.com
list is having a month-long anniversary celebration and today is multicultural-biracial romance day. Delightfully, the discussion seems to be about hotties and evocative passages … just as it was for all the other variations.
Monica, I’m an ignorant white girl who grew up in a small town in northern Illinois, and the only people of African descent I knew in my youth (at the time, “Black” was the preferred term) were Alexander Scott and Lieutenant Uhura. I thought they were both pretty cool Dad used the “n” word sometimes, Mom yelled at him every time he did, I thought it made him look stupid. I didn’t meet real people of other races until I went to work in the big city – Chicago – and everybody took me for a moron for not being aware of the undercurrents.
I’m sure you mentioned them somewhere but I can’t deal with searching through all these posts. What would you say is your favorite of your books—the best intro for a new reader? I haven’t read AA mostly because I haven’t been reading romances for very long, but I’ll try almost any sort of story at least once, tho I overdosed on Dark Shadows as a kid and have little interest in vampires and were-thingies.
Oh, brother.. my verify word is “husband86.” Marry Maxwell Smart? Not on your life!
Hi Lia! Biracial men have the bestest hotties, but I’m biased. Check Shemar Moore. Whoop!
As far as my books, I always say to go and peep the excerpts (accessible from monicajackson.com) and get the one that floats your own boat best. I will admit my quality varies. But hopefully my books aren’t boring reads. If you’re into chick lit, you might like Too Hot, if you’re new to romance, Never Too Late might fit you, since it’s more women’s fiction.
A feeling of resignation hit me recently. I’ve been struggling so long, while most of my peers accept that they aren’t a part of the greater romance community and never will be.
I was talking about it with some friends. We have our own community and they support us loyally and deserve our attention. That’s why you don’t see too many of us banging their heads against the white romance walls (e.g. hanging at AAR and other sites) other than doing friendly networking and what not.
So I think as far as romance, I’m bowing out, but will do the friendly wave-by thing every so often.
Blessings, Monica
Okay, I just googled Shemar Moore. I’ll have to hear his voice before I say for sure whether Vin Diesel has to move back to second place in my imagination for good, though. But daaaaaaaaamn, he’s hot.
I think Gary Dourdan is pretty yummy too.
Picked up a couple of Monica’s books on Amazon, I’ll let ya’ll know how I like them.
Chicago? I know a couple of people brought up Chicago and so I hope you all don’t mind if I toss out a little ad for those folks.
Saturday, September 9, 2006 the Les Turner ALS Foundation is hosting it’s annual Walk4Life. It’s a two mile walk starting at Montrose Harbor and going along the Lakefront.
Basically, you register and get people to donate/sponsor you and the money goes to reaserch and support for people with ALS.
I’m participating in a team made up of my family. So far we have 15 people. One of my aunts was dxed with ALS earlier this year, so it’s very personal for everyone in my family. We’ve seen how hard and fast ALS can hit a person.