There have been some pretty heated discussions going on lately at the Romantic Times Readers’ Roundtable Messageboard and at the AAR Potpourri Messageboard about Anne Stuart’s new book, Cold as Ice. Apparently, Stuart had the audacity to write about…oh, steel yourselves and be sure to have your hartshorn ready, ladies…a man who’s had them homosexual encounters.
The threads are huge, and I admit, time and my blood pressure aren’t allowing me to read through all of them. Some of the old standard canards have been brought up, from “OMG IT’LL RUIN ROMANCE BECAUSE IT’S VIOLATING THE ONE MAN/ONE WOMAN RULE!” to “OMG IT’LL RUIN ROMANCE BECAUSE HOMOSEXUALITY IS AN ABOMINATION!” Sigh.
The kerfuffling began with this report from LLB on the 2006 RWA conference included this snippet about Stuart’s upcoming book:
…the hero, a spy who slept with a man in Black Ice, has total control over his body, which allows him to have sex with men or women, whatever the job entails, without any emotional feelings whatsoever. At one point in the upcoming release, the hero informs the heroine that he kissed her to distract her in order to knock her out. When she asks what he would do if he needed to distract a man, he answers, “I would do the same thing.” Cold as Ice will be released in November. Given Harlequin’s sometimes old-fashioned reputation, I asked what the editors at MIRA thought about this. Stuart indicated hers loved it and that other editors who heard about it thought it was “cool.”
I noticed this bit of information when I first read the conference report last week, and it raised a brow, sure—but probably not for the usual reasons why anyone would raise their brow at the idea of a bisexual hero for a mainstream romance novel.
Why can’t a guy in a romance novel just enjoy cock because he enjoys cock, and not be a freak, emotionally cut-off to the point of pathology or a sociopathic villain who’s looking to shag anything that moves and a great deal that doesn’t? Not that Romancelandia is populated by the healthiest of heroes, but c’mon, now. A guy can like cock or cock AND pussy without being a sociopathic freak, you know. No, trust me, I know this, if you know what I mean, and I think you do..
I’m here to explode some myths about bisexuals. Hold on to your panties, people, because they are ground-shaking revelations of the first order.
1. Not all of them are polyamorous.
2. Not all of them are into group sex. Just because they’re omnivorous doesn’t mean they want all of it, all of the time.
3. Not all of them are indiscriminately slutty. Liking both sets of bits doesn’t mean they’re sex fiends, or that they don’t care who’s attached to those bits. That’s like saying omnivores don’t care about the quantity or quality of their food, simply because they enjoy both meat and vegetables.
4. Being bisexual doesn’t mean they’re wishy-washy or unable to make up their minds about what they want sexually. That’s like saying an omnivore is somebody who can’t make up their minds whether they like meat or vegetables, so they must be confused vegetarians or carnivores.
Furthermore, having a sexual encounter with the same sex doesn’t, in my opinion, immediately make somebody gay or bi. A lot depends on context of the encounters. Would a man who was raped by another man be considered gay, or bi? What about a man who had sex with other men strictly for the money? What about a man who was in a confined situation in which women were scarce for extended periods of time (as in jail or a ship)? What about a guy who was curious about what it would feel like to sleep with another man, but otherwise felt no real attraction to them?
And to flip this around: would a person who self-identifies as gay but married and slept with somebody of the opposite gender so the person could serve as a beard be considered bisexual?
People have this tendency to immediately go “AHHHH TEH GAY GERMS!” and label somebody bisexual or homosexual based on a few encounters, when to me, the true test boils down to: are you able to fall in love with a person of that gender? Does your interest immediately perk up when you see an attractive specimen? In short, are you attracted at a primal level to people of that gender? By that standard, I’m not sure that the hero of Cold as Ice is, as described, bisexual—he just happens to be willing to take on the cock for king and country.
But back to the debate. Of all the objections I’ve read, the one about “OMG IT VIOLATES THE MAN/WOMAN COVENANT OF ROMANCE” to be the most puzzling, because dude: it’s romance about a man and a woman. Just because it makes you go “EW, he touched peener in the past!” doesn’t make the hero any less monogamous or any less in love with the heroine by the end of the book.
And I won’t even begin to address all the “you can write it, but don’t call it romance—it’s actually EROTICA!” claims I keep stumbling over in the discussions. I’ve ranted plenty over that issue already.
Something else I keep stumbling over: people keep vigorously complaining about their right to be asshats without being called out on their asshattedness. “Stop judging the judgmental” etc. etc. etc. And true, people have their right to their opinions—but we also have a right to call you on your bigoted reactions. Look at it this way: if the hero to Stuart’s book, instead of shagging men in the past, had shagged black women in the past, and some people railed against the book in disgust, what would you think of those people? In that context, let’s look at some of the comments I’ve culled from various messages:
“…it [sic] warped , dysfuntional and abnormal …”
“I won’t be buying it because it’s too far outside my comfort zone.”
“Either way, it sounds gross”
“No thanks, I had trouble with this with Laurell K Hamilton and Anne Rice, but got past it because the men in question were not human.”
Mmmm-hmmmm.
I’m glad a mainstream romance author has a protagonist who’s had some homosexual encounters in his past, but I’m disappointed that Stuart, who’s pushed some interesting envelopes in the past, seems to be sticking with tradition in making those same-sex encounters traumatic.
It’s interesting how these things can fold back in on themselves…the details in a story that I’d consider both real and fantastical at the same time – the ideas and settings that are necessary and “comfortable†to me – can back me into a certain kind of story without me even realizing it.
I think this is true. I also think there are a lot of issues here—as usual—that are kind of tangled up. When I think of AA Romance, I think of AA characters, but Monica also brought up the issue of Black writers writing white characters but whose books are shelved separately because of the author’s racial identity. That, to me, is fucked up and problematic in all sorts of ways. I definitely think we should be talking about what dynamics in the Romance community lead Black authors to be viewed or to feel somehow separate and apart. And I’d like to know if writers from other racial or cultural groups feel this way as well, and whether the fact that most big publishers are in New York (where the racial divide is still more Black/white) makes any difference. I’d love to hear from more non-white authors about their experiences in the publishing and marketing process.
Also, I think there’s an issue some people have tentatively brought up, which has to do with the idea that since Romance is fantasy fiction, who do people want to experience in their romantic fantasies? I think that’s a question that encompasses race and sexuality but in slightly different ways than we’re used to talking about. There are still readers who feel guilty because they enjoy Romance fiction featuring erotically charged rape, and people are still debating whether that’s “okay” or not. Do white people who fantasize about other white people falling in love have the same right to that fantasy? Maybe if we asked that question directly, we could take a better shot at some of the issues—but then again, maybe not.
I think there is also an issue of culture in Romance. MaryJanice Davidson’s Undead series is set in Minnesota, and I think there are certain elements to Midwestern folks that people who grew up in other parts of the country may not get. I recently saw Garrison Keiler’s movie “Prarie Home Companion,” which my mother raved about. I enjoyed it, but not as much as she did, because she grew up in the Midwest and it just resonated totally differently with her.
Also, one of the things I wish we’d talk about is the way IMO paranormals sometimes use non-human or super-human or otherwise otherworldly characters as a proxy for racial otherness (I think Charlaine Harris does this in her Sookie Stackhouse series), and whether, perhaps, readers are more comfortable with the proxy issue than the “real thing” so to speak, or whether readers don’t see it this way, or whether readers who favor paranormals are also more likely to seek out interracial or non-white Romances.
Either way, it might behoove those of us who feel that prejudice is much too common for our peace of mind to gently educate the willfully ignorant, and to try to ease (or sllllllooowwwwwlllly pry, depending) open the thinking of the close-minded.
Whenever I give an opinion, whether it’s in an academic article or in one of these discussions, I don’t really set out to change the mind of the person to whom I’m responding. I figure that one person gives one view, and one person gives another, and if someone’s mind is changed on an issue, it could be anyone’s (including mine) or no one’s. I think dialogue, conversation, debate, discussion, and the like are all necessary and valuable. My own experience, as someone of a very rebellious and generally suspicious-of-authority nature, though, is that when people feel that a “lesson” is being directed at them, they will do everything in their power not to learn it. So my feeling is that conversations happen, and we all have something to contribute, and that eventually minds get changed and attitudes shift and energy moves. But we don’t really have much control over the direction in which that happens, and so all we can do is say our piece and let it go where it will. In the end I think things do evolve, often for the better, but I really see it as almost amorphous and indirect and out of the hands of any one person, if that makes sense.
“So my feeling is that conversations happen, and we all have something to contribute, and that eventually minds get changed and attitudes shift and energy moves. But we don’t really have much control over the direction in which that happens, and so all we can do is say our piece and let it go where it will. In the end I think things do evolve, often for the better, but I really see it as almost amorphous and indirect and out of the hands of any one person, if that makes sense.”
It does make sense—and I’m probably expressing myself poorly here—but without people willing to share their own views on difficult or delicate topics (as opposed to my mother’s “we don’t talk about that, dear” approach, for example), no change will occur, in any direction.
Hence, if I consider that something someone said or did is ill-informed or prejudiced, I open my mouth and show what s/he may consider to be my ignorance and prejudice in the hope that both of us may become more aware of our own beliefs. With any luck, we both may learn something.
It does make sense—and I’m probably expressing myself poorly here—but without people willing to share their own views on difficult or delicate topics (as opposed to my mother’s “we don’t talk about that, dear†approach, for example), no change will occur, in any direction.
Yes, I agree completely.
Robin and axteclady, I totally agree with you.
That’s why I “harp on” the topic. I try not to name call and label because it’s counterproductive, but I call it like I see it.
And look what happened here. I learned something from the people willing to share their views on a very sensitive topic. Some of the very smart people here helped me to see certain things in a different light.
I know it isn’t always easy. Like I mentioned before, I tend to be a little desensitized to it. In my life I’ve lived in places were I was surrounded by different ethnic groups and places where I was the only one not white. It’s always uncomfortable when you have this disparity with people. Where I live now there is a very large Mexican population and my husband often feels odd when he runs out to the Laundromat and he’s the only one there who is either white, male, or both. And I know that Sunday dinner at my grandmother’s is little awkward for him sometimes because he doesn’t speak Spanish and we tend to forget that when we’re all together and both languages are flying around the table. It’s hard in a situation like that because no one is trying to exclude him, but some of our relatives don’t speak English and once conversation gets flowing … it’s hard to keep a running translation. Especially when I also forget he doesn’t understand what’s being said. :3
I’m hoping that the problem is language and that, as you improve and they become more comfortable with you, the situation will improve. Because I do believe that’s part of the problem, their comfort level with you. It seems to me that right now they are treating you like a guest instead of family, like they aren’t quite sure what to make of you yet. I think that at the shower they were trying to hard not to put you in a situation where everyone around you was speaking so that you couldn’t understand and they went too far the other way. I really think that once you start feeling like family to them things will improve.
“Because I think you use racism like I tend to use sexism sometimes. When some guy tells a joke I think is at the expense of women, I will casually say, “that is so sexist!†and it doesn’t feel like an accusation, even though the dude in question will be like sputtering a defensive, disbelieving reply. To me it’s like saying, “wow, you just made a comment that’s totally discriminatory against women†and not feeling like I’ve just condemned that person to the 9th circle of hell.”
YAY, for Robin! Someone seemed to be alluding earlier (it wasn’t Robin, but this thing is so long…) that I think of myself as perfect because of my earlier rantiness which is total bullshit. I fuck up sometimes. I have a terrible tendancy to use the term “ghetto” in a derogatory fashion, which is racist. And, I’ve been known to assume that anyone I find on the internet that doesn’t say otherwise is white, ‘cause in my brain, I’m conditioned to think of white as normal, which is racist. I am working on those things. There’s probably other things I do that I don’t realize speak of enormous ingrained bias.
But, when I get called out on something I’ve said, no matter what my intentions were, I do not flip out and get my panties in a twist and throw myself a little ‘But, I’m NOT a Racist’ party. Because, the truth of the matter is that: yeah, sometimes I do say and think stuff that’s racist; or, put another way: sometimes I am a racist. It doesn’t matter if I “meant to” be racist. What matters is that I apologize for being an asshole and do my very best to change my ways. And, being called out for being racist ain’t the end of the world, but closing your mind to the possibility that you’re racist, because you don’t hang up Confederate flags or idolize Hitler and that’s what you think real racists do, is the end to a part of your world. It’s an end to the part of you that’s willing to change, to become kinder and more considerate, and to… I dunno… give it your best shot.
(But, apparently, I’m not the norm. And, I forget that a lot of the time. Which makes me look like an asshole. Again… not the end of the world.)
However, when you’re set apart from everyone else and you’re the only person of your race in the room, the only person being treated like that, it’s hard not to react.
This sentence really resonated with me even though I am “white.” (Whatever the hell that is – I’m also Native American, but not enough to count, I guess.) I lived in Philly for five years and I was almost always the only white person in any public situation, to such an extent that I had major culture shock when I moved to Boston because there were so many white people around. Coming from California, with step-parents and half-siblings who were of another race, I was really shocked by how I was treated in Philly for being white. I spoke to a Korean-American friend of mine about this and she said that what I was experiencing was “predjudice”, not “racism” as I claimed, because only the dominant racial/class group can be “racist.” Does anybody have any thoughts on this distinction?
Yes it is fucked up and until Monica pointed this out I didn’t realize this was happening. If I were a bookstore, I imagine I’d want to hedge my bets and stock books such as AA romances in two separate places – with other AA works since that’s what a portion of the AA community demands and in the romance section because, by volume, those books move the fastest out of the store. (Which, actually, is what I’ve seen at some stores locally.)
The more I think about the almighty tangle that is race and culture, there was also something else that occurred to me. That is, there’s pressure for white people to adhere to an over-arching “white culture” just as much as there is for anyone from any other race in the U.S. I realize this makes all white folks akin to the oh-so-popular prom queen who’s whining about how tough it is to be popular while the nerd’s getting a swirly during recess. By no means am I trying to say in this analogy that it’s harder to be popular than not, but at heart what this tells me is that’s there’s still some specific ideals we’re all apparently supposed to be living up to and it doesn’t seem as though many people stop to examine what that means. For all the advancements in rights and recognitions of the value of diversity, underneath it all we’re still striving for some unattainable elements of sameness. I realize a part of this has to do with the social contract – I mean, there’s got to be some things we agree on such as murder=bad if we’re going to get along – but I can’t help but feel our collective unconscious is straining to hold onto Puritan ideals no matter the cost or no matter the inappropriateness of those ideals to our current reality.
It’s as if we can see and touch and taste the richness, maybe even truly adore, all that other cultures have to offer—and yet we’re somehow unable to swallow it down and make it truly a part of us in any significant way.
or, put another way: sometimes I am a racist.
It strikes me as odd that you seem so comfortable with labeling people and even yourself. I sense a need to compartmentalize the world. These people are bad and there’s no excuse for them. If you say something that I perceive as racist, then you are a racist. Is the world really that simple? Because I thought it was all complicated and shit.
I’m just confused that you seem determined to make the world a better place, but you’re very comfortable with passing judgment. Now this may not be true, but it’s something to think about during conversation.
Monica also brought up the issue of Black writers writing white characters but whose books are shelved separately because of the author’s racial identity. That, to me, is fucked up and problematic in all sorts of ways.
Oh, yeah, that’s totally fucked up. Racism, no question.
And yes, I’m comfortable labeling that. :coolsmirk:
Shit, I’m gonna post once more and then I need to take a nap.
There is not a person here who doesn’t have preconceived notions and prejudices. It’s human nature. For example, if you said to me “construction worker”, I’d automatically think of a man, even though I know good and well there are female construction workers. The danger is in not being AWARE that we have these preconceptions and that they are flawed.
If I said something about my middle-aged white husband doing his thing on the dance floor, many of you would picture something unflattering. And, frankly, you’d be right, but it’s still not true of all middle-aged white men and we know that.
It’s all in how you define it, I suppose. My definition of a racist is not only someone who has racial prejudices; it’s someone who is unaware that these are prejudices and, in fact, SUBSCRIBES to these beliefs. But that’s not the only definition here, so it makes for a complicated discussion.
I think self-awareness is key. None of us is perfect, and we will be learning new things about ourselves and about others until the day we die. Or that is the goal anyway.
Because, Victoria, as I stated: I don’t see it as “passing judgement.” If something is racist… it’s racist. I don’t think anyone should throw themselves into a pit of spikes and snakes if they are racist, or go around wearing a big R, or get put in jail. But, I think people should have every right to identify racism without getting called excessively cruel, or manipulative, or, obsessed with labels and categories.
As for simplistic… I’ve never been told that I’m racist, when I wasn’t actually being racist when I really thought about it. I’ve never seen anyone called out for racism that wasn’t actually being racist. So… maybe that’s simplistic, sure. But, well, I don’t think that racism should get to be defined solely by the perpetrator. Some people seem to think it’s only racist if they think they were being an asshole. I think that’s bunk. I think, honestly, that it’s racist in and of itself quite a bit of time, as essentially they are arguing that only white people get to define what they accept as racist or not. Who the fuck am I, as a white woman, to tell a woman of color what’s what with “actual” racism? How presumptuous would that make me, when I’m not the victim of systematic racial bias? Would you want men to get full riegn over what does and doesn’t “really count” as misogyny?
Baby Ganesh wept! Stay away from the computer for a few hours, and all you people go crazy up in heah. I haven’t fully caught up yet, but a few things caught my eye:
Karibelle, thanks for that story about your grandmother.
Marie, thanks for explaning that providing an explanation is not the same thing as attempting to excuse a behavior. I was ranting about this conflation last night to a friend of mine—a bisexual guy, even, heh!—and he pointed out that many people have a difficult time distinguishing the two, and then we segued into a discussion about structure vs. agency. Basically, we agreed that people who believe strongly that structure has an undue influence on somebody’s agency may take any explanations about the circumstances surrounding their beliefs and behaviors as an excuse to relieve them of responsibility of their actions, which sets up a false dichotomy.
And Robin:
Regarding the people who initially set off this shitstorm, i.e. the ones who find bisexual characters distasteful and/or outside their comfort zone, I’d say that those who argue that it’s repulsive and/or unnatural and/or that they’d have a hard time buying into the HEA because they’re afraid that the guy will cheat on the heroine are expressing their prejudice against gay people. Whether this verges onto homophobia remains to be seen, but in my opinion, their words indicate some sort of bigotry. As for the comfort zone thing…well, y’all have brought me around. I do think that some people are using this as a euphemism for their prejudice, but it’d require a whole lot more context.
Now, this bit here from Just Dropping Bi, however, makes me want to bap my head against the desk:
This may describe a some of the bigots out there, but by no means all of them. Look, not all of ‘em are Fred Phelps, okay? I’ve known quite a few people who were prejudiced against homosexuals for various reasons, many of them religious. (Ahhhh, the joys of going to a Catholic university.) I’ve gotten into interesting, and sometimes loud debates about the morality of homosexuality with them, but I’m pretty sure that most of them would defend somebody in an unprovoked physical attack regardless of the victim’s sexual orientation, because their belief that unprovoked violence is not OK trumps their belief that homosexuality is a sin. Your statement, JDB, is prejudicial—it makes some unwarranted assumptions and extrapolations about a large group of people. The people on the boards who express distaste for and disquiet about non-hetero characters in romance may be prejudiced, but dude, you’re saying they’re also accessories to murder and aggravated assault. Whaa?
As both Victoria and Veronica said, I think everybody is prejudiced at times, including myself. Somebody mentioned above that a Korean woman said minorities can’t be racist and that’s true. The formal definition is a majority response against a minority. But it’s just semantics, minorities can be as mean and prejudiced and any other people.
I define hard-core racists as people who won’t reason, won’t converse with the other, who won’t be swayed no matter the evidence, no matter what.
All the other folks are just misguided, ignorant or mistaken (including myself at times). They will change their view about other groups of people if they have the opportunity and reason to do so.
I spoke to a Korean-American friend of mine about this and she said that what I was experiencing was “prejudiceâ€, not “racism†as I claimed, because only the dominant racial/class group can be “racist.†Does anybody have any thoughts on this distinction?
Prejudice: An irrational hatred or suspicion of a specific group, race ,or religion.
Racism: The notion that one’s own ethnic stock is superior. Prejudice or discrimination based on racism.
This person is arguing that because racism requires a feeling that one’s own race is superior someone who is not from the dominant class/group can only be prejudiced. The clearly implied logic here is that someone from a non-dominant group is incapable from believing that they are superior, which simply doesn’t hold water, IMO. Lot’s of minority families I know only want their children to date/marry others of their own race/ethnicity/religion/etc. If they did not believe—at some level—that they were superior, then why would they adhere to this?
As far as I can tell, the human species seems to be hard wired to be prejudiced (perhaps this is connected to some survival instinct from our more animalistic past when anything which was “other†was in fact likely to be dangerous?). If there’s nothing as obvious as race to latch on to society fills the vacuum with something else (religion, class, ethnic origin, etc.).
I’ve yet to encounter any country, society, race, creed, etc. didn’t express this trait in some way.
I just can’t agree that there’s anything simple about it. At one point Monica said, “That’s how those people who won’t read AA romance come off to me. But are they racist? Of course they aren’t.” (I’m taking this out of context to use it as an example. My apologies.) So what if Monica doesn’t consider these people racist, but someone else does? Is it racist? Fuck if I know. It isn’t a science. It’s a discussion. It’s an opinion.
And what if I make a joke about white people? Is it racist? Is it okay because I’m white? Is it just a joke? And who gets to decide?
But I have to agree that if someone said to me, “That was a racist comment,” I’d say, “Really? Why?” I wouldn’t say, “Fuck you, I’m not a racist!”
I’m not weighing in the debate, since I think I couldn’t saying anything not already said. However, I will say that this bit of info has pushed me into buying Stuart’s latest “Ice” book as a prebuy, no reviews, just because she actually appears to have managed to make a hero willing to engage in which ever sex works at the time, as opposed to being coherced/forced into it. Props to Stuart for that, and hopefully she pushed the envelope some more in the next books.
People can believe in the scriptures, and also believe homosexuality is wrong and not for them, but why don’t they leave it to God to judge as the scriptures instruct them and treat all people with respect and tolerance?
A book with gay sex isn’t going to turn people gay. Why should some try to make sure there’s no gay sex in romance? What does it have to do with them? You’d think all their fav authors were all going to start writing dicks slapping dicks.
It makes no sense and is just another version of intolerace. Gays have a shitload of prejudice to deal with and it’s a shame.
I used to live a few blocks away from the Phelps and they were enough to make me want to turn gay. If the gays there ever had a gay pride parade, I’d march with them.
“I used to live a few blocks away from the Phelps and they were enough to make me want to turn gay.”
LMAO.
“But I have to agree that if someone said to me, “That was a racist comment,†I’d say, “Really? Why?†I wouldn’t say, “Fuck you, I’m not a racist!—
Well, that makes you different from a lot of people. I’ve actually heard avowed Neo-Nazis say they weren’t racist. For real. They said they were just “Proud.”
Should anyone believe them? Or, is that one safe to make a call on? 😉
For the record, and because people keep bringing me up, if you “won’t” read AA romance because you don’t ‘want’ or ‘like’ to read about black people in love, exactly how is that not making a racial decision? I can understand never having read an AA romance because you’ve never run across one, but to make a concious decision to not do so and to run around telling everyone about it the first chance it comes up? What’s that all about?
Ack. I meant, “…because people keep bringing IT up…”
Not “me” up.
Why, yes, I AM totally self-absorbed…
Some do—my in-laws are a pretty decent example, as far as it goes, though the VTH and I are still mad that they voted Yes on the constitutional amendment blocking gay people from ever marrying.
Many people who think homosexuality is wrong wouldn’t stand idly by while gays are being hurt, I think, but it’s another thing entirely once you move into more abstract realms, such as enacting legislation that would affect their legal rights. They can’t see the hurt being done, so it’s easier to write off or justify. The inconsistencies in behavior are infuriating, but I do think progress is (slowly) being made.
Ha! I know what you mean. I never get as strong a hankering to make out with girls as when I read bigoted opinions, like Jan Butler’s letter.
We have an excellent gay pride parade in Chicago! All SBs are welcome to join me in marching in support! Monica I would love to meet you!
GAH! That comment wasn’t done yet! Stupid laptop… I wanted to add that this is an excellent discussion everyone!
dl snarkily said of Amy E’s AA vampire tale:
Yeah, and all that…but is the book any good? A good plot with interesting characters, or just controversial drivel?
I wondered the same thing IN MY HEAD but c’mon – what’s an author gonna say about her own book? “You got me. It’s drivel. I just threw in a black stud to get noticed.†Even if it was true, who would admit that??
LOLOLOL! I love this comment. Kisses to you both! I personally thought dl’s comment was more a general question than about BROKEN TIES specifically, but just in case, I’ll answer regarding my book.
To be honest, the reason my hero Gregori is black? When I wrote his first entrance in the TIES books, he just showed up as a black man. That’s really as deep as it went. Sometimes I sit down and plan out a character, map their backstory, design their appearance… sometimes they just show up and say, “Here I am. Try to change me too much and I’ll make writing this book pure hell for you.” Gregori arrived fully formed and that was that.
And you know, I hope it’s a good book, good entertainment. It’s not a book to change the world. Gregori doesn’t have any real world-shattering message to get across (apart from the whole ‘don’t fuck with me’ attitude). He’s just a guy with darker skin.
You know how I said sometimes I want brain-candy and sometimes I want message? This book is brain candy! And I think there’s nothing wrong with that. 😉
(oh, and to finish the commercial, BROKEN TIES, sequel to BLOOD TIES, is a short story now available at Changeling Press.)
We will now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion. 🙂
Verónica, in my experience most people (as in not hardcore *fill in the blank*) can make the rare, occasional racist/prejudiced comment without realizing it is prejudiced or racist until someone else points it out. Most people may occasionally react in a manner that shows prejudice and, after the fact, the coin may drop and they become self aware of that particular prejudice or belief (personal experience talking here, over several different prejudiced beliefs I wasn’t even aware I held)
Then again, most of the time people didn’t tell me “You are a racist” anymore that they would say “You are stupid” if, instead of showing a prejudice, I would have done something stupid. What by and large they have said is, “That action/comment/generalization is stupid/prejudiced.”
There’s a difference there, for me, and for many of the people I interact with daily. The difference between a perceived personal attack, and a criticim of a behaviour or choice. In response to the former, defensiveness immediately rears its ugly head, spitting and snarling, while for the latter there’s at least the possibility of engaging the other person into dialogue.
I highlighted perceived above because often what I hear is not what the other person is actually saying. Sometimes my language skills are lacking, sometimes the other person’s are.
azteclady
who has been on both sides of the prejudice divide
So, quick question. How many books that have AA characters, AA authors, gay/bi characters etc. does one have to read before one ceases being a prejudiced bigot?
If I try 1 – 10 AA/gay/bi books and don’t like them so don’t buy them anymore, am I o.k.? Do I have to read 20 – 50? Do I have to continue even though they aren’t my ‘cup of tea’?
Where, exactly, is that line?
And I would like the pen names of the ladies on the board that write AA, because I want to read a couple…and prefer to spend $$ on people I’ve heard of/seen somewhere…
I am still very uncomfortable w/gay or bi. I’m sorry. I actually tried anal sex a couple of times and the only memories I have of it are painful. I don’t find it romantic. I can only think ‘OUCH’. I am not attracted to females, so don’t want to read a romance w/just girls in it. Color me prejudiced…but use that brush on the correct orifice…
SamG
Sam G, you don’t HAVB to read any.
Just don’t make up your mind that you won’t read a book because the author/characters are of a certain race/religion/nationality/sexual orientation. (Should I add in weight?)
But if you’re determined to go black, that would be me. monicajackson.com. Links to online store on all books at the “My Books” link.
For gay, I like Fred Smith and you get to bang two birds with one book. It’s funner than you think to read about gay guys getting it on and you don’t have to imagine you’re, like, actually there.
How can I misspell HAVE?
Oh SamG, there are excerpts in the right-hand column. Make use of them or I will not be guilty for how your money fares.
“I spoke to a Korean-American friend of mine about this and she said that what I was experiencing was “prejudiceâ€, not “racism†as I claimed, because only the dominant racial/class group can be “racist.†Does anybody have any thoughts on this distinction?”
The social science definitions of the term “racism” with which I’m familiar usually include power as a component. So, if I can materially affect your life by acting on my belief that you are inferior to me because of your race, then that’s racism. If I’m just Archie Bunker ranting about black people, that’s prejudice because he can’t do anything material to the Jeffersons, just annoy them.
The problem with this definition is that it really doesn’t have a way of accounting for effects that are the result of many individual actions, each of which may not on its own affect anything. For example, say no non-black person will read Monica’s books because s/he is prejudiced against blacks, and therefore there’s no sales to non-blacks, and no word-of-mouth, and no threads of “buy this book, it’s fabulous!” on AAR. Each individual act is motivated by prejudice and wouldn’t be called racism, but as a collective outcome they have hurt Monica’s career. We call it systemic racism, or institutional racism sometimes. But this removes all individual responsibility for what happens. If I were Monica, I would be seeing this as racist, because my life is materially affected by the combined actions of people prejudiced against my race.
Something that was brought up about 150 messages ago: why is not having a taste for AA romances any different than not wanting to read about Regency England? Well, I guess my answer would be that analytically you may be able to consider them equivalent, but itsn’t it a leetle weird for Americans to be uninterested in people whose life experiences have been so critical in shaping their history? Think about it: many people are clamoring for more American historicals, but they won’t read about blacks because that’s not interesting to them? It can’t just be taste. Or maybe it is, but then it’s just a coincidence that people beg for historicals set outside England, by which they mean “another European country,” sometimes India, and very very rarely, the middle east or Latin America. Forget Africa. In years of reading romance boards, I’m not sure I’ve ever seen a request for more romance novels set in Africa (except for White Mischief type plots).
Monica, I’ve got two of your books on my Amazon wish list now. And it’s nothing to do with race, but with weight. I’m so tired of romance heroines bemoaning their fat butts and the fact that they’ve gained A Whole Ten Pounds. *eyeroll*
Now the idea of a heroine who’s a size twenty? That, I want to read.
And thanks for writing her story. 🙂
Caught up with all the comments, and have to say this is one of the most interesting conversations I’ve had the pleasure of participating in in way too long. Intelligent, well-articulated and reasoned posts that disagree with respect—I was lucky enough to have parents who raised my brother and I to intelligently and respectfully disagree, and we’d often sit around the dinner table debating this or that. Only after I grew up and moved out did I realize how rare it is and I am loving this now. It totally kicks ass.
So, with all that mushy stuff out of the way, more from me…
Monica, I’m really glad you brought up that egg-shells thing, because you were reading my mind. Just to prove that the “can’t talk about racism or reverse racism (whatever the hell that means) or whatever because I’ll be labeled or misunderstood and attacked, etc” fear is real. I was thinking this EXACT SAME THING and didn’t know how to articulate it without sounding racist or coming across as an asshat.
Many, many times I’ve stayed out of conversations regarding race because I don’t want to be misunderstood. When I first threw my hat into this ring, I was worried that my point about wanting to fantasize about people who look like you would be misunderstood and I’d be labeled racist. To me, it isn’t an insult, it’s… oh, I can’t think of the right word. I try so very hard to treat everyone equally. I genuinely love people and I don’t care what your color is. For me, to be called a racist, it really hurts. That may sound whiney coming from a white girl, but to me, it’s right up there with calling me a bad mother, or a negligent nurse. It’s telling me I’ve failed at something that’s very important to me and that I try very hard to accomplish.
Of course no one is without any race-related views whatsoever. That’s impossible. I know it will come as a shock to most of you, but even I am not perfect. (I know, I know. Put your head between your knees, the urge to faint will pass soon.) But as another poster said—Robyn? Victoria?—having misconceptions related to race isn’t the problem as long as you’re able to question them and confront them logically. When a person isn’t open to any other viewpoint and doesn’t give a good goddamn if their attitude causes physical, emotional, or mental harm to someone else, even if they see conclusively that this harm is occuring—to me, THAT is a racist.
Again, this might be a case of semantics. Victoria says that the word racist doesn’t seem that horrible to her (paraphrasing), and I know everyone reacts to everything differently. Hell, I hate to be tickled, and my kids love it. But to me, it’s a very ugly word for a very ugly thing and the few times it’s been flung at me, you bet your ass I’m defensive. And a defensive mindset is one that blocks—it’s not one that opens and learns.
When I was little my mom never made me eat anything I didn’t want to. But the deal was I wasn’t allowed to say I didn’t like something unless I’d actually tried it. I couldn’t say I didn’t like fried okra unless I had one little piece on a fork. I don’t like okra to this day and I know it’s true because I’ve tried it more than once over the years. How can people say they wouldn’t enjoy a book unless they at least tried to read it first. They might be surprised, like I was when I realized that I now love black eyed peas over rice but I didn’t like them them I was little. Imagine how I felt when I realized I liked cornbread better than chocolate cake!
Okay, I’m just procrastinating now. I’m having a particular hard time writing today. I made a movie trailer, spent tons of time here and cleaned out my frickin’ closet.
But I can’t seem to quit.
As far as preferences I have ‘em too and I fully understand how some women might not be into guys of a certain type. I thought blonde guys were gross until I saw Val Kilmer in Top Gun. Lordymercy! Was he fly or was he fly?
But look at him now.
This deserves a moment of silence folks.
Boy, did irony bite my ass today. The family member who recently came out of the closet? It’s my daughter. She’s a fifth year senior in college, and will graduate with a social work degree in December. The past four years, she’s been involved in a sorority. As you can imagine, her coming out has had the expected fallout – some friends expressing support, some a bit stunned, but working on it, and some turning their backs on her completely.
Anyone not familiar with today’s college kids may not know about FaceBook – it’s similar to MySpace, but just for college kids. You can be part of a group, and list your affiliations on your page, so that vistors can link to others in the same association. She has her sorority listed.
Yesterday, before she left to come home for a wedding this weekend, the sorority advisor called and left her a message on her cell – would she please take down the reference on her page that she ‘likes women’? Naturally, my daughter was pissed off, but she did it – this is recruitment week, and I’m sure the advisor worries some potential member might see that there’s Oooh, a Lesbian! in the sorority, and it might make her decision different. Sorority rush is brutal – no secret there.
My daughter pondered this a great deal – all while she was fuming and furious – and finally decided, I’m either gay, or I’m a part of this sorority. They’re clearly not going to let me be both. She decided to take the association link off of her page and return it to how it was before.
Late last night, she went to her FaceBook page, and the association link had already been taken down. Either the advisor – a 50ish woman – or the president of the sorority had taken my daughter off the link to the other sorority members. This despite the fact that she complied, as they asked, and removed all references to her – what do I call it? Gaiety?
So, you know, as much as I enjoy these high-brow, intellectual, theoretical discussions – nothing really, truly gets the point across so much as REAL LIFE asswipes in action, does it? Anne Stuart is a lovely woman, and an excellent writer, and I wish her all the best with all of her books. But whether or not her hero had sex with other men is like, so stinkin’ insignificant to me right now. This is my baby – love of my life, apple of my eye. And people are being mean and bullying her. Yeah, I’m in Mother Bear mode, big time.
As for me, to be brutally honest, I’m heartbroken for her. No getting around it – being gay is a hard life, filled with pain and meaness and discrimination. Who would want that for their child? Already, she’s making changes in her life decisions – she planned to settle in Texas. Now she’s saying New York. She’ll live over a thousand miles away, because she doesn’t think she can find anywhere in Texas that she won’t be completely ostracized. Yeah, Austin, but she doesn’t want to live in Austin. Maybe Dallas – who knows?
You wanna know what realy blows my mind, at my own self? As open as she’s been about this – I only found out the night I returned from RWA in Atlanta – I’ve not mentioned it to any but a couple of very close friends. I worry that my daughter being gay will affect my career, that closed-minded people will not buy my books, or look at me differently than they did before. After today, hearing her say that she is who she is, and no stinkin’ sorority is going to send her back in the closet – how can I do anything less? If I sell less books, or someone thinks less of me – I’m just not sure I care. My daughter and her well-being will always, always be more important to me than anything else.
Stef, I’m so sorry asswipes are being mean to your daughter.
I know what you mean. The thought of anybody being mean to my child makes me want to strangle them.
You’re doing what you can, being Mama Bear for her.
Your daughter is lucky to have you.
Stef –
You must be one helluva mom to have raised a kid with that strength of character. More power to you, and best wishes to your daughter.
And heck, having a “came-out” daughter didn’t affect the Republican ticket, so I’d hope it wouldn’t affect your sales.
There’s probably not less than three families in five who’ve had the same news announced, and most, once they get over the surprise, are just fine.
*hugs to you both* Ya done good, Mom. She’ll be okay.
*hugs to Stef*
You’re right, it’ll be harder for her, but she has a great mom. I hope the rest of the family is as supportive.