447. Hanging Out with Sarah J. Maas

[music]

Sarah Wendell: Hello, and welcome to episode number 447 of Smart Podcast, Trashy Books. I’m Sarah Wendell. With me today is Amanda and Sarah J. Maas. Yes! Sarah J. Maas is back, nearly one year to the date from her last interview with us, to talk about her new book A Court of Silver Flames. We are going to talk about sexytimes, the magic romance house, rage, mental health, and rereading books through the pandemic. There are so many little tiny love letters to romance inside A Court of Silver Flames, so of course we talk about the most lovely parts of being a romance reader too.

I want to send some special thanks to Elizabeth, Manda, Jennifer, Rachel, and Becca for their question, and to our Patreon community. Your support helps make transcription of extra-long episodes like this one possible, so thank you.

Many of the Patreon community members told me that last year’s episode with Sarah J. Maas was one that they’ve re-listened to because it was inspiring and comforting and firm in its support of mental healthcare, therapy, and medication. This one is no different, and we hope that it becomes one of your new favorites.

I do have a major TRIGGER and CONTENT WARNING: at about minute 47:30 – and do not worry; I’ve moved the midroll so that I will stop the podcast and I will tell you about what’s going to happen – we talk about assault, attempted assault, and the resulting rage. Now, the section is rather long, it’s about forty-seven minutes to one hour four [about 47:00-1:04:00], but I will warn you before it happens, and you can skip ahead about fifteen minutes.

I want to thank Sarah J. Maas for hanging out with us and for being part of a conversation that is intimate and vulnerable and so very, very welcome.

This podcast episode is brought to you by Native. Native aluminum-free deodorant is a great addition to your 2021 routine, because they care what you put on your armpits. That’s why their deodorant’s ingredient list includes things you’ve actually heard of, like coconut oil and shea butter, and another plus: none of their products are tested on animals, and almost everything is vegan! Native is risk-free to try. Every product comes with free shipping within the US, plus free thirty-day returns and exchanges, and they have options! Native has a line of sensitive deodorant for people with baking soda sensitivities, plastic-free deodorants if you’re trying to cut down on your plastic consumption, and even an unscented option. They also have limited edition scents available now in partnership with Jungalow: palm leaf and bergamot, tangerine and citrus blossom, and paradise flower and amber. Make the switch to Native today by going to Native D-E-O dot com slash TRASHYBOOKS [nativedeo.com/TRASHYBOOKS], or use promo code TRASHYBOOKS at checkout and get twenty percent off your first order. That’s nativedeo.com/TRASHYBOOKS or use promo code TRASHYBOOKS at checkout for twenty percent off your first order.

This episode is also brought to you by Prose. Amanda and I both have been using the Curly Girl Method for a while, and when I mentioned that I did not know what to do with my hair because it is growing in wavy, which it has never been, Prose was the perfect, perfect solution. It is encouraging my wavy hair to do magical things that I’ve never seen it do before. Prose creates custom shampoo and conditioners based on your personal hair analysis and their algorithm. Their online quiz dives into every possible factor that might affect your hair, including your environment, like, hello, humidity! The quiz also takes into account what I want my hair to be! Shiny, curly, wavy! All of the above! There’s no one-size-fits-all with Prose, because they want to customize shampoo and conditioner for each person. And their algorithm personalizes over fifty billion combinations, and they’ve come up with a unique blend of ingredients and products that address my exact concerns. My concerns? Basically, what do I do with wavy hair? And how do I make it do more of it? Not only do I get to choose the scent – which I love! – but the shampoo and conditioner work brilliantly. My hair is more wavy the more I condition it, and the hair mask that goes on beforehand leaves it softer than it’s ever been. I thought I had straight hair! I was wrong! I have visible ringlets! I didn’t know my hair did any of this! If you are on a what-is-my-hair-doing journey with me and you want to try Prose, I’ve got a coupon for you. If you’re not a hundred percent positive that Prose is the best hair care you’ve ever had, they’ll take the products back, no questions asked. Prose is the healthy hair regimen with your name all over it. Take your free in-depth hair quiz and get fifteen percent off your first order today. Go to prose.com/TRASHYBOOKS. That’s P-R-O-S-E dot com slash TRASHYBOOKS for your free in-depth hair quiz and fifteen percent off.

I could not be more excited to bring you this episode. I love when Sarah comes to hang out with Amanda and me, and now, on with the podcast episode with thirty-three percent more Sarahs! with Sarah J. Maas.

[music]

[Laughter]

Ms. Wendell: This is a thirty-three percent more Sarahs podcast, and I’m so excited that you’re here! Thank you so much for joining us!

Sarah J. Maas: I am so excited to be back! I love you guys. This is, like, the highlight of my tour. I’m ready to, to get into it with you guys.

Ms. Wendell: Okay. So I just want to tell you that I shared with my Patreon community that I was doing this interview because, as I put it, my inner thirteen-year-old was not cool. She is still not cool. Like –

Ms. Maas: [Laughs]

Ms. Wendell: – someday, someday, we’re going to have to (a) be in the same place and breathe, but also do a, a live interview? Like, in person?

Ms. Maas: Yes.

Ms. Wendell: It would be so much fun. Amanda –

Ms. Maas: I would love that.

Ms. Wendell: – you might have to change your name to Sarah.

Ms. Amanda: Sarah? Sure, I’ll be Sarah. Okay.

Ms. Maas: You could be, you could be Sara, Sara without an H? So you’re like –

Ms. Amanda: Ohhh!

Ms. Maas: – but individual, like, you know, like –

Ms. Amanda: Sara with the, with just an A on the end.

Ms. Maas: Yeah, Sah-rah.

Ms. Amanda: Sah-rah.

[Laughter]

Ms. Amanda: Sah-rah!

Ms. Wendell: I want to tell you, Sarah, I did an interview with another Sarah, Sarah Gailey, who is also a lot of fun to talk to, and we decided that the plurality of a Sarah is a Royalty of Sarahs?

Ms. Maas: Yes! ‘Cause of the princess thing! Yes!

Ms. Amanda: Wait, I think –

Ms. Wendell: So I’m thinking –

Ms. Amanda: – did we talk about this last time, how I have a cousin named Sarah, and, like, it means princess?

Ms. Wendell: Yes!

Ms. Amanda: And Amanda –

Ms. Wendell: And you were pissed!

Ms. Amanda: – means beloved? Like, this is –

Ms. Maas: [Laughs]

Ms. Amanda: We’re just reliving my childhood trauma again.

[Laughter]

Ms. Wendell: So when I told my Patreon community I was doing this interview, I had so many people tell me that they have listened to our last episode multiple times –

Ms. Maas: Really?

Ms. Wendell: – because it is so funny and inspiring –

Ms. Maas: Ohhh!

Ms. Wendell: – and they were so inspired by our talking about mental health and therapy and medication and self-care that they’ve listened to it multiple times. So –

Ms. Maas: Oh my God!

Ms. Wendell: I was, I was so flattered!

Ms. Maas: I, I’m insanely flattered! One of the highlights of our last conversation for me, actually, I think was, was you, Sarah, telling me that you’ve fallen asleep doing, like, the Downward Dog position in yoga?

Ms. Wendell: Oh yeah.

Ms. Maas: [Laughs] And every time, like, literally, it’s been, what, like a year? Every time I do yoga and I’m in, like – or was it Child’s Pose; you fall asleep in Child’s Pose.

Ms. Wendell: Oh yeah, Child’s Pose, I’ll just doze off –

Ms. Maas: Yeah, Child’s, Child’s Pose, yeah, and, like, every time I’m in Child’s Pose at the end I’m like, I wonder, like, if I could fall asleep? Like, this has haunted me. Like, how –

Ms. Wendell: Sorry! [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: – to fall asleep in this pose? Like, I’m never that relaxed at the end of yoga that I could fall asleep. But, yeah, I loved our last conversation, and I’m really honored that people, like, found it meaningful and fun, and that’s awesome. You just made my whole day.

Ms. Wendell: Oh yay! Well, congratulations on the release of this extremely small, slender novel that is extremely small.

Ms. Maas: [Laughs]

Ms. Amanda: I mean, we’re like –

Ms. Wendell: Very, very small.

Ms. Amanda: I had another book arrive at the same time as Silver Flames, and one was in, like, a regular bubble mailer, and one was in a box, and I’m like, I wonder which one’s which?

[Laughter]

Ms. Maas: Oh my God!

Ms. Wendell: Some day, for April, for April Fools, you should announce a book and it’s like one page.

[Laughter]

Ms. Maas: Well –

Ms. Amanda: Just a sheet of paper.

Ms. Maas: What’s funny is, so with A Court of Frost and Starlight, which was, like, the novella before this, like, it was supposed to just be a novella, but because I can’t write anything that short –

[Laughter]

Ms. Maas: – it wound up being like two hundred pages, and so we had months, like, I and my publisher had months of back and forth about what do we call this thing? ‘Cause this is not a novella; like, people, you know, a novella, they’ll expect a short little thing, but this is not a novel. It’s just like a long, happy story where nothing happens, and so then it came out, and we, we, we eventually wound up calling it just a story, but then it came out and peop-, some people were, like, upset, ‘cause I think they thought it was actually supposed to be a full-length novel, and, like, they were expecting like eight hundred pages, and they got like two hundred instead, and it was just, like, it was, it wasn’t, like, a mess or anything, but I, it was like one of those things where I was like, okay, clearly, like, we need to, like, come up with, like, a term for, like, like, shorter stories that I write so people aren’t confused.

Ms. Wendell: I have, I have an idea for you.

Ms. Maas: Okay.

Ms. Wendell: A, a Maas market, M-A-A-S market.

Ms. Maas: [Laughs]

Ms. Amanda: That’s terrible.

Ms. Wendell: Eyyy!

Ms. Amanda: That’s terrible.

Ms. Wendell: I know; I’m so bad! [Laughs]

Ms. Amanda: It’s not even 11 a.m., Sarah.

Ms. Wendell: Sorry.

[Laughter]

Ms. Wendell: So congratulations!

Ms. Maas: Thank you! Yeah, thanks. It’s weird that this book is finally out in the world and that people are reading it, and I’ve had a couple friends texting me fan art that, that people have already made.

Ms. Amanda: Already, yeah.

Ms. Maas: Yeah, already! Which, like, first of all, like, how does anyone have the time to create these amazing things in like two days?

Ms. Amanda: [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: But yeah, it’s just, it’s so surreal that this book is, like, out there and in people’s hands, and I started writing it years ago, like even while I was still writing A Court of Wings and Ruin, the third book in the series, and it was a fun, it was just a, a fun project. Like, it wasn’t meant to be published or anything. It was just me looking ahead. I only had the first three books in the series under contract. Like, it was supposed to just be a trilogy, and then I just began writing this for fun as a, like, what happens after, like, the big bad is, like, over? And, like, ‘cause there were all these side characters that I loved who had their own stories, and I just wrote it, you know, on my, my spare time that I now, like, do not have as a mother. [Laughs] But I, and then I, like, drunkenly pitched it to my editor over, like, a meal. No, like, truth, I’ve, like, told this story all around the world, I think, but, like, I literally, I was working on this project in secret – it wasn’t even secret; it was just, like, me doing this fun story about Nesta and Cassian, and –

Ms. Wendell: Basically, you were fanfic-ing yourself.

Ms. Maas: Yes, exactly! I was –

Ms. Amanda: Yeah.

Ms. Maas: – writing, like, yeah, like, like, fanfic of my own characters –

Ms. Wendell: Awesome!

Ms. Maas: – after the events of the first series, and I was at some conference with my editor and we, like, went out for dinner, and I guess I had enough drinks that I just began, like, drunkenly rambling to her?

Ms. Amanda: [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: Like, oh, like, after the series ends, like, this is what happens with Ca-, like, Cassian and Nesta, and, and she had asked me, like, ‘cause we were working on Wings and Ruin at the time, and she wanted to know what happened after the series ended, so two hours later and like ten bottles of wine, I had pitched her, like, this book, like, all the upcoming books, and then I guess I was drunk enough that I forgot about it, and two weeks later my, my then-agent called me being like, uhhh, did you pitch something to your editor –

[Laughter]

Ms. Maas: – when you guys were in Chicago?

Ms. Wendell: [Laughs]

Ms. Amanda: Like, I wouldn’t call it a pitch, but –

Ms. Maas: [Laughs] Exactly! I was like, oh yeah.

Ms. Wendell: Well, there might have been a pitcher – of margaritas involved.

Ms. Maas: [Laughs]

Ms. Amanda: Stop it!

Ms. Maas: Exactly! And so my editor had, like, offered to buy the, these, like, spinoff books and, jump ahead many years, and here we are, and the stuff that I wrote years and years ago, I wound up basically going back to page one and, not rewriting but just, like, heavily gutting those first few hundred pages, and then, now it’s this giant doorstopper of a book!

Ms. Amanda: Now, my, my roommate took Tuesday off of work to read it.

Ms. Maas: [Laughs] Oh my God!

Ms. Amanda: And she had like a special edition coming from Books-A-Million, ‘cause there was, like –

Ms. Maas: Mm-hmm.

Ms. Amanda: – extra content, but she’s like, I know it’s not going to be here on Tuesday, so then she bought the eBook version so she could start reading on Tuesday, and we have, like, a, reading room sort of thing, so she sat in the chair in the reading room all day on Tuesday. And periodically I would check in, be like, how’s it going? And at the end of the night I was like, so did you finish it? And she’s like, Amanda, this book is like eight hundred pages. I was like, oh, sorry! She’s like, I’m only forty-two percent into it. I was like, all right! But she finished it, I think, like the next day or the day after? But yeah, she took a day off of work. She’s like, I have comp time anyway I need to use.

Ms. Maas: [Laughs] I’m, I’m deeply flattered and, and honored. I care about nothing in my life enough to, like, take a day – like, my son; like, I’d take a day off of work for him, but – and maybe, I don’t know – I’m trying to think if there’s anything, like, fan-wise I would – do, like, do you guys have, like, things that you would take, like, a full day off of to, like, read or, like, go see or, like –

Ms. Amanda: I don’t know! I feel like younger, when I was younger we would do, like, the midnight releases of things, like books –

Ms. Maas: Yeah, same.

Ms. Amanda: – videogames, or whatever, but now I’m old.

Ms. Maas: [Laughs]

Ms. Amanda: – do that. Like, no! I’ve done, like –

Ms. Wendell: Trying to think –

Ms. Amanda: – you just have to think, like, all right, well, if I take a whole day off, can I imagine what my inbox is going to look like the next day? Like, so –

Ms. Maas: Yes!

Ms. Amanda: – I don’t know! That gives me anxiety.

Ms. Maas: Me too.

Ms. Wendell: I was going to say, the three of us all have anxiety, right? This is –

Ms. Amanda: Yeah.

Ms. Wendell: – probably not a thing we can do?

Ms. Amanda: No.

Ms. Maas: No. No. No.

Ms. Amanda: [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: No. And I, I mean, I was the same way. Like, I went to, like, the Lord of the Rings midnight release screenings, like, dressed up and – and that, but that was, like, again, when I was young and there was no such thing as, like, smart phones and, you know –

Ms. Amanda: Yeah.

Ms. Maas: – like, I, I wasn’t – like, if I took a day off, like, there would be no actual day off, ‘cause I would still be checking emails and, you know, if some work came in I’d be like, crap; like, my whole day would be ruined. Like, taking a day off would require me, like, shutting off all electronics and things –

Ms. Wendell: Oh yeah.

Ms. Maas: – and I cannot physically do that –

Ms. Amanda: [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: – and I don’t think I am – like, just the thought of it, like, has my, like, whole body tensing up right now, which tells me something about my addiction to technology. And I thought I was pretty good! I thought, I thought, I, like, I don’t have any, like, like, social media apps or, like, games on my phone. I literally have like twelve things on my phone. It’s like The New York Times, The New York Times Crossword, The New York Times Cooking app – like, it’s like the phone of a ninety-year-old retired woman. Like, there’s, like, I even got rid of Solitaire, ‘cause I found that to be, like, distracting me! [Laughs] But, yeah, I cannot, even with my, like, very limited amount of apps that I have, like, the thought of just, like, closing my phone for the day, I can’t do it! And that makes me sad.

Ms. Wendell: It’s hard, right?

Ms. Maas: It makes me sad, yeah.

Ms. Wendell: Well, maybe you could start with like five-minute increments.

Ms. Maas: No.

[Laughter]

Ms. Amanda: No, mm-mm.

Ms. Maas: No!

Ms. Wendell: So I don’t, I don’t want to, I don’t want to do too much spoiler-ing –

Ms. Maas: Okay.

Ms. Wendell: – spoiler-ing, because it’s possible that someone has not finished this extremely slender book –

Ms. Maas: [Laughs]

Ms. Wendell: – by the time this episode comes out. It may be that people are still, are, are still reading it, which is totally fine.

Ms. Maas: Yep.

Ms. Wendell: Everyone reads at their own pace –

Ms. Maas: Yep.

Ms. Wendell: – and I know, I know readers have been waiting for this story, and Amanda’s going to tease me, because she’s, she’s, I was telling her about some of the things I wanted to ask you about. She’s like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I know; people have been waiting for this Nesta, but let me ask you about this obscure corner piece over here –

Ms. Maas: Yeah, yeah.

Ms. Wendell: – which is how my brain works.

Ms. Maas: [Laughs]

Ms. Wendell: So I will start with the, the, the Nesta fandom –

Ms. Maas: Mm-hmm.

Ms. Wendell: – ‘cause we talked about this when we, we talked last year! We talked about how you were writing this and it was like, I have written some of the dirtiest things I have ever written.

[Laughter]

Ms. Amanda: When I checked in on my roommate I was like, so what’s happening? How’s it going? And all she did was, like, list off the various, like, sex scenes she’s read?

Ms. Maas: [Laughs]

Ms. Amanda: She’s like, there was a blowjob, there was a –

[Laughter]

Ms. Amanda: – there’s fingering, lots of masturbation. She – [laughs] – like, I was like, so how’s it going? Like, so she just rattled off – I was like, okay, good! That’s good! She’s like, no penetration stuff yet.

[Laughter]

Ms. Wendell: – see the in-, the Maas-turbation inventory here.

Ms. Maas: [Laughs]

Ms. Wendell: I want to say thank you for a particular line, by the way, and it’s very early in the book, so this is not a spoiler. “Even immortality wasn’t enough time for some males to master the art of the bedroom.” BUUURRRN!

Ms. Maas: [Laughs] I just imagined, like, I don’t know, these, like, Fae, like, frat-bro types, like jackhammering?

Ms. Amanda: They’re like fuckboys. They’re just, they are. They’re like Fae fuckboys.

[Laughter]

Ms. Maas: I don’t know, I feel like just, I don’t know. Like, guys are guys. Like, some of them just can’t, don’t, don’t get it, and I mean –

Ms. Wendell: Immortality is not going to fix that.

Ms. Maas: No, no, it’s not. I mean, the sex in this book, I don’t know how I’m going to look any of my family in the eye after this, ‘cause they all, they all insist on reading my books, and every time I tell them, don’t read. One, you guys don’t like fantasy; two, you don’t like romance; like, three, there is so much graphic sex in this book that I cannot – I literally had to block out the thought of, like, my family while I wrote this book. Like, I became an orphan. Like, I had to become –

Ms. Amanda: [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: – an orphan, like, living under the stairs like Harry Potter, writing my smutty books, ‘cause, like, I could not handle the fact that I was writing about, like, bodily fluids, like, leaking down, like, out of Nesta’s thighs with, like, my father or my grandma reading this book. Like, Jesus Christ. I haven’t spoken to my parents since this book came out, and I don’t think I’ll ever speak to them –

Ms. Maas and Ms. Amanda: – again.

Ms. Amanda: Yeah. Better change –

Ms. Maas: [Laughs]

Ms. Amanda: – change your name, change your phone number. Just – [laughs] –

Ms. Maas: Yeah, yeah! Moving out of the country, yeah.

Ms. Amanda: Like witness protection.

[Laughter]

Ms. Wendell: So is it, is it, is it exciting for you to think about your readers reading this book and finally having it out in the world? Because this is your second pandemic release, right?

Ms. Maas: Yeah, yeah! And I mean, it was – I, I think going into this, you know, we advertised it as my first, like, adult, you know, like, adult installment in this series –

Ms. Wendell: Yep.

Ms. Maas: – you know, and, and the ACoTaR series before this, I mean, like, that series was adult. Like, I, it’s a long story about how it wound up in, in YA; like, you know, I sold it to my publisher as like New Adult at the time, but New Adult –

Ms. Wendell: Yep.

Ms. Maas: – never became like a thing, and so they wanted it to be shelved in YA, ‘cause my Throne of Glass series was there, and I, my only condition was that, okay, like, well, I don’t want to censor my content for these books, so we didn’t, and so these books were kind of like secret, it was like a weird pla-, like, there was, like, it was a weird place for these books, but now we’re officially in the adult realm with the series. They repackaged all the books, and I feel like there was a lot of expectation that, like, okay, like, you know, they’re adult now; let’s see what you’ve got, Sarah. Like –

[Laughter]

Ms. Maas: – like, like, you know, like, ACoMaF had like a three-day sex marathon, so, like, I had to top that, and –

Ms. Wendell: [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: – I mean, it’s not like I had a checklist of, like, okay, we need to have, like, a blowjob and masturbation and, like – [laughs] – like, but, like, I basically was like, okay, you guys think there’s going to be sex in this book? I’ll show you sex in this book.

Ms. Wendell: Game on.

Ms. Maas: [Laughs] It was just, it was, it was a lot of fun to write, though, ‘cause, like, Nesta’s just like so, like, unapologetic about her sexuality? And it just was really –

Ms. Wendell: Yes.

Ms. Maas: – like, freeing to write about someone who, like, not only knows what she wants but, like, really enjoys it? And I don’t know, it’s just, like, hot, and, but also, like, funny. Like, you know, the, the blowjob scene, like, af-, it’s like – this is, like, sort of a spoiler, but like, afterward, like, it was done in a public place where people have to eat and, like, you know, there’s just, like, a lot of room for humor in some of this like –

Ms. Amanda: [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: – the sex stuff of, like, you know, what happens when you get caught, like, blowing a guy in a dining room?

Ms. Amanda: It re-, it reminds me of that, like, that meme that was going around? It’s like, not in front of my salad? Do you remember –

Ms. Maas: No!

Ms. Amanda: So –

Ms. Maas: [Laughs]

Ms. Amanda: – it was actually a scene from a, a porn film? And this woman’s eating a salad, and two guys start having sex in the kitchen, and she’s like, oh no, not in front of my salad. And she, like, takes her salad and leaves!

[Laughter]

Ms. Amanda: I feel like it was a not in front of my salad –

[More laughter]

Ms. Maas: Perfect, perfect comparison!

Ms. Amanda: [Laughs]

Ms. Wendell: So what – [sighs] – all right, okay, Sarah.

Ms. Maas: Okay. Okay?

Ms. Wendell: Sarah?

Ms. Maas: Sarah.

Ms. Wendell: You wrote a magic house with food and romance novels. So there’s a magic house –

Ms. Maas: [Laughs]

Ms. Wendell: – instantaneous food delivery and instantaneous romance novel delivery, and the magic house reads the romance, and, and, and the house, the house does its own dishes.

Ms. Maas: Yes.

Ms. Wendell: That right there is porn.

[Laughter]

Ms. Wendell: That’s pornography!

Ms. Maas: It’s like –

Ms. Wendell: I know it when I see it.

Ms. Maas: [Laughs] I feel like it’s like mom porn or, like, like, the things that I don’t want to have to deal with, like dishes, cleaning. I mean, I, I definitely put some of my, like, quarantine, pandemic living fantasies, like, into the house? I don’t know, like, I just, I worked on the bulk of this book, like, while living in this house and not –

Ms. Wendell: Yep!

Ms. Maas: – not leaving it, like –

Ms. Wendell: Nope.

Ms. Maas: – like, ever. Like, I don’t think I – we literally didn’t even go on a walk through our neighborhood until, I want to say August. Like, from like –

Ms. Wendell: Oof!

Ms. Maas: – March until August, like, we did not, like, go –

Ms. Wendell: You didn’t leave.

Ms. Maas: – anywhere! And so I think I definitely, like, channeled my, like, wishes. It was like Wish Book online, like a house that would make you, like, magical little pegasuses and, like, bring you chocolate cake and will draw you a bath and, like, like, even drawing myself a bath these days with like a, a two-and-a-half-year-old running around is like a rare luxury, so I think it was definitely wish fulfillment on my part, but I don’t know. I also live in this old-ass house. It’s like a hundred and ten years old plus, and –

Ms. Wendell: Mm-hmm.

Ms. Maas: – it was built like right before the Spanish influenza pandemic, and so I’ve, like, this whole time been wondering like, oh, like, I wonder if the people who first built this house, like, did they, like, ride out the pandemic here? Like, this house, it almost felt like a ship, like a spaceship in a way, where, like, this house lived through one pandemic, and now, like, it’s going through another, and, like, we’re sailing into the unknown, and it, and, you know, my windows to the outside peers watching people go by. Like, it was a weird feeling of, like, being in this house that had so much character, and I think that kind of bled into this book, but I also just love the id-, like, it just felt so cozy to me, and espec-, it mirrored Nesta’s journey in so many ways. I mean, I don’t want to spoil things, but, like, one of the things that Nesta is looking for and that she’s never really had is a sense of home and, like, feeling like home is a, like, a safe place for her, and –

Ms. Wendell: Yes.

Ms. Maas: – like, the house kind of becomes that, and it’s like a very cozy, like, nice feeling. But I also cried at times; there were points where I cried.

Ms. Wendell: Oh!

Ms. Amanda: – to write, like, a short little AU fic of, like, Nes- – [laughs] – or, like, Nesta being on like House Hunters? Like –

[Laughter]

Ms. Amanda: Like, getting this house.

Ms. Maas: [Laughs] That would be amazing!

Ms. Amanda: That’s like, that’s what I, like, I’m inspired to do. Like, yeah sure, you can write, like, other, like, kissing stuff or whatever; it’s like, but no, I just wanted like an episode of House Hunters with this house.

Ms. Maas: Yeah, I, I can just hear it now. Like, Nesta and Cassian are a young couple from the city of Velaris looking for more space and city views.

[Laughter]

Ms. Maas: They also want a short commute to their work at the Night Court. Also plenty of space for their friends to come stay over. And a big library, multiple libraries.

Ms. Amanda: Multiple libraries.

Ms. Maas: I can just see it, like – yeah. I’m a big fan of, like, House Hunters, so I –

Ms. Amanda: But you have to, like, throw in something wild like, but their budget is two thousand dollars.

[Laughter]

Ms. Maas: They want sweeping views and space and two libraries, but they only have three thousand dollars to put down on a down payment. [Laughs]

Ms. Wendell: Their last house featured a magical sentience that delivered food and books automatically. Will they be able to find such an incredible option in a future house? Tune in to find out!

Ms. Maas: [Laughs more]

Ms. Wendell: All right, I think a thousand fics were just born.

Ms. Amanda: Yeah.

Ms. Wendell: I’m so excited about this?

Ms. Amanda: If, yeah, if you write it, please send it. Would love –

Ms. Wendell: Yeah, send it to us. Send it to us; we need to know.

Ms. Maas: Yeah, please –

Ms. Amanda: Yeah.

Ms. Maas: – please, please.

Ms. Wendell: So when can we move in to the, to the magic romance food house? Although I will tell you, I live with two teenagers, and my house is also a house of wind. But it is the wrong kind of wind, and no one does my dishes but me. When can we move into the magic romance food house, please?

Ms. Maas: Any time you like, and I need to tell you a story about the House of Wind. Like, that –

[Laughter]

Ms. Maas: – that, that, that name. So when A Court of Mist and Fury was, like, in the works and we were going through titles, my, like, working title was A Court of Wind and Fury, and I was, like, super into it, and my, like, my US team was into it, and they sent it off to the UK, ‘cause we work, you know, with the UK team on everything, and the UK came back and was like, absolutely not. You cannot call this book A Court of Wind and Fury. And I was like, why? Like, wind is badass. And they’re like, here it means fart. Like, it means fart. So you would have House of Farts and Fury. That would be the title of your book! And so even though the House of Wind, like, as a thing stayed in this book, like, I still, like, I still hear, like, the UK team being like – [English-ish accent] – well, here wind means something other than what you Americans think. [Laughs]

Ms. Amanda: It means fart! [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: It means fahts!

[Laughter]

Ms. Wendell: I’m crying!

[More laughter]

Ms. Amanda: But, like, that’s also something that once you hear it, you’re like, great, now that’s all I’m going to think about when I hear the word wind now. Thank you. My life is ruined. [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: Literally, like, crushed a lot of dreams that I had too. [Laughs]

Ms. Wendell: Thanks, UK.

So super obvious question then: obviously the pandemic inspired the, the house of magic wind, and your being a romance reader was a major element to this house. What are some of the ways in which being a romance reader has influenced this book and also the house that we all want to live in, please, please soon, like very soon? I’ll keep my distance from you, I promise, like ten to fifteen feet, please.

[Laughter]

Ms. Wendell: Please, please, please.

Ms. Maas: Well, I think, like – I mean, not just the romance books but the sharing of romance books in this book is like a big thing. It’s one of the ways that Nesta and the friends that she makes in the course of the book, like, bond, through sharing of romance, and that’s definitely something that came from my daily life. Like, I, didn’t like, make friendships based off of romance books, but, like, I can’t tell you like how many text friends I have with, friends who are like, you have to read this book! And, like, you know, like, it’s just like an ongoing thing of, like, these romance stories and, like, there being almost like a, I don’t know, just like a language that, like, runs through it of, like, you know, joy about, like, the romance – like, just unapologetic joy about the romance, the Happily Ever Afters, the hot guys, the hot sex, and it’s just such a daily part of my life and, like, my relationships with some of my closest friends that I, it felt natural for Nesta to have that in her life too, especially ‘cause she’s such a big reader, and she’s found it so hard to connect with people in the past, but then finding other readers – you know, Emerie’s a huge romance fan and, like, that’s kind of like the way they initially bond, and then they loop Gwen into it, and, like, it just becomes like a, like a backbone of their friendship, but also an excuse to, to talk to each other. And, I mean, I just love that romance in general is just such – I mean, it’s a female-dominated industry. It’s, you know, stories, like, mostly about women, written by women, and every time I read a book like, like a romance novel, it just leaves – like, the Happily Ever After, like, never gets old for me?

Ms. Wendell: Nope. Nope!

Ms. Maas: And I’ve realized that, like, I don’t give a fuck if, like, people beyond the community think romance, like, you know, isn’t real literature, or like that – like, it is, first of all, but just because some – yeah, exactly – like, just because something –

[Laughter]

Ms. Maas: – is, like –

Ms. Amanda: No, you know –

Ms. Maas: Yeah, just because there’s a –

Ms. Amanda: – people won’t be able to see it, but Sarah was making jacking-off motions, so.

[Laughter]

Ms. Maas: But just, just because, you know, there’s a happy ending and there’s sex doesn’t mean that a story’s not worth telling. And that just – you know, not to go on a total rant, but it just –

Ms. Wendell: Feel free!

Ms. Maas: [Laughs] I just, it infuriates me that, you know, somehow, you know, stories with women having sex and enjoying having sex and then being happy at the end, you know, somehow that’s not – like, somehow in order for a story to be, like, worthy, according to some, like, you know, gatekeepers and tastemakers, it has to be sad and miserable at the end, and, like, you know, the couple can’t be together and, like, I do appreciate those stories every now and then, but I personally don’t like rereading stories where everyone’s dead –

Ms. Wendell: No.

Ms. Maas: – at the ending or, like, you know, the couple I’ve been rooting for for ten books isn’t together? Like, I just –

Ms. Wendell: Yep.

Ms. Maas: – that’s not my cup of tea, and I just, I keep returning to these romance books, like, again and again. Like, I think I’ve read The Hating Game like, you know, ten times now just because I – there’s something about the reassurance of, like, it’s all going to be okay –

Ms. Wendell: Yep.

Ms. Maas: – at the end, and the characters – like, it doesn’t come easy for them, and it doesn’t come easy for Nesta –

Ms. Wendell: No.

Ms. Maas: – either, and I wanted that, you know, I, I wanted Nesta to struggle and fight for her happy ending. And it’s not even a happy ending; it’s like a happy beginning to her life.

Ms. Wendell: Mm-hmm.

Ms. Maas: And I just, those are the stories that I keep reading again and again, and they bring me joy and comfort and they’ve gotten me through some of, like, the hardest times of my life. And I think with Nesta it’s, it’s the same. You know, she’s a big romance reader before this book even starts, and even when she’s so closed off from the world and is so despairing, the fact that she reads these romances has always been this quiet indication that she does want that happy life for herself, and there is some small part of her that believes that she could have that too, or at least hopes that she could have that too, and she finds immense comfort in those books and friendship in those books – like, literally she finds, like, you know, companionship with the book itself, but then friendship because she’s reading these types of books, and her friends are reading those books kind of for the same reason: they enjoy them, the happy endings make them happy, but they also have their own dark journeys that they’re going on, and the romance kind of helps them through it as well.

Ms. Wendell: Yep.

Ms. Amanda: I think readers especially, I don’t know, it, it’s something, like, very close to, like, the reading community is like, we all have at least one person that we, like, text or message or shout at –

Ms. Wendell: Mm-hmm.

Ms. Amanda: – when we’re, like, reading something good, and be like, oh, you have to read this because I need someone to talk to about it.

Ms. Maas: Mm-hmm.

Ms. Amanda: – like, online communities that we talk about books with. So I feel like that, it’s a pretty, like, universal experience, especially for people who love reading and love books. Like, we, we all have, like, those group chats and, like, those Twitter DMs and –

Ms. Maas: Mm-hmm.

Ms. Amanda: – all of those things where we’re just, like, loving a book and we want to shout at it and – [laughs] – tell someone else to read it.

Ms. Maas: Mm-hmm.

Ms. Amanda: So I think, like, that was kind of my, one of my favorite parts is –

Ms. Maas: Oh, thanks!

Ms. Amanda: – seeing everyone else being excited about books and kind of like understanding that same feeling, even though, like, it’s been so hard to read lately. [Laughs] Yeah. So –

Ms. Maas: Yeah, I’ve, like, I’ve barely done any reading during this pandemic, weirdly enough. I’ve watched a lot of TV and movies –

Ms. Wendell: Yep.

Ms. Maas: – but I’ve read very few books, and then the ones that I have read, like – I’ve, like, reread Pride and Prejudice like three times. Like, I’m –

Ms. Wendell: Oh yeah.

Ms. Maas: – I can’t get out of it right now? Like, I’m stuck –

Ms. Amanda: [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: in, like, a Pride –

Ms. Wendell: Yep.

Ms. Maas: Like, all I can think about –

Ms. Wendell: Yep.

Ms. Maas: – is Darcy and Elizabeth and, like, their wedding night, like imagining what their wedding night –

[Laughter]

Ms. Maas: – is like! But then I also, like, I’ll be like, ooh, that must have been like, I was like, oh, like, how would Darcy have, like, you know, seduced Elizabeth, and would Elizabeth have kind of known what to expect, or would it all have been shocking to her? But then always, this always happens, in the middle of thinking about this, I think about poor Charlotte and Mr. Collins, and, like, what –

[More laughter]

Ms. Maas: – what the wedding night with them would have been like, and I actually, like, literally googled this at one point. Like, did Charlotte, like, consummate the marriage with Mr. Collins? ‘Cause she’s pregnant at the end, and I was like, like, that can’t be that guy’s baby, like she, she actually had sex with that guy, and I read this whole, like, scholarly analysis of, like, how, like, Charlotte’s view of sex versus, like, Elizabeth’s view of sex and, like, you know, would Charlotte, you know, she would have just been doing, like, a thing, and, like, there would have been no grossness attached to it for her. It was like this whole, like, analysis, and I was like, yes, I, I can understand your intellectual thing, but, like, bleah! Like, gross! Like, Mr. Collins, like – [laughs] – I just, I feel so bad for Charlotte, and I know that, like, she probably was happy and relieved that she had a good home and all of that, but, like, can you imagine that guy, like –

Ms. Wendell: Bleah!

Ms. Amanda: [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: – like, on, like, inside of you? Like, oh my God.

Ms. Wendell: Ugh!

Ms. Maas: [Laughs]

Ms. Wendell: Bleah! Oh!

Ms. Amanda: Oh God.

Ms. Wendell: I don’t even know what kind of a content or trigger warning to put for that.

[Laughter]

Ms. Wendell: Like, what, is it like full-body revulsion? Complete abdominal cringe? Bleah! Oh, no thank you!

Ms. Maas: This always intrudes every time I think about Darcy and Elizabeth; I just like, this little black cloud comes in, just like, it just floats by.

Ms. Wendell: What about poor Charlotte?

Ms. Maas: What about Charlotte? What about Charlotte? Oh no! [Laughs] So that’s, that’s been, like, my thing, like, for the past few months. It’s just endless Pride and Prejudice, reading and listening to the, the audiobook version and then watching the BBC version, like –

Ms. Wendell: Yep.

Ms. Maas: – over and over again, and it’s weird. Like, I don’t know –

Ms. Wendell: Which audiobook are you listening to? Because Rosamund Pike narrated –

Ms. Maas: That’s –

Ms. Wendell: Oh, it’s so good!

Ms. Maas: Yeah, that’s the one. It’s so good. Like, I –

Ms. Wendell: Oh my God!

Ms. Maas: – I just keep, like, like, toggling between, like, like, reading it and then just listening to it, and, like, I, I mean, she’s brilliant with the – like, I, I thought that was, like, one of the best, like, versions of it, like – and she just, like, brought it to life. Like, I, I suffer from migraines, and I’ve had a lot of them during this pandemic – probably triggered by stress –

Ms. Wendell: Can’t imagine why!

Ms. Maas: Yeah! I don’t, I don’t know why. [Laughs] But, so I’ve spent a lot of time lying in the darkness in my, my bedroom –

Ms. Wendell: Yep.

Ms. Maas: – unable to, like, look at my phone or, like, even have the TV on, so, like, the one thing that, like, has, has gotten me through some of that is just listening to that audiobook?

Ms. Wendell: Yep.

Ms. Maas: I listen to that one, and then Audible did a, like, dramatic reading of Emma that was really good too?

Ms. Wendell: Yep.

Ms. Maas: So, like, I just, like, literally lay in the darkness for hours and hours, you know, these recent months, just listening to, to the story. And it’s funny how it, like, comes alive in your head; just, like, with all that, like, sensory deprivation that is required to get through a migraine, like, it was like seeing a movie in my head in a way that, like, wasn’t, like, physically painful for me to –

Ms. Wendell: Yep.

Ms. Maas: – to watch. But, yeah, I love that. Long story short: I absolutely love Rosamund Pike’s, like – her whole, that whole, like, audiobook –

Ms. Wendell: So good.

Ms. Maas: – was just, like, brilliant.

Ms. Wendell: And it makes sense that you are into both The Hating Game and, and Pride and Prejudice, ‘cause, forgive me for telling you what you do, but you do traffic in pining.

Ms. Maas: [Laughs]

Ms. Wendell: You traffic heavily in pining. Piney fresh heroes are among your specialties; lots of pine. So it makes sense!

Ms. Maas: Yes, yes. Though I think, I think – [laughs] – I think with this book – I wound up saying this at, like, one of my tour events lately, and then I, like, stressed about it for days afterwards, ‘cause I just felt very, like, I don’t know, like, the audacity of even saying this, but, like, like, Nesta and Cassian kind of remind me of, like, a reverse Pride and Prejudice in a way, where, like, Nesta’s like the broody, like, asshole Darcy type, and, like, Cassian’s like Elizabeth, like, I love to laugh! And, like, you know –

[Laughter]

Ms. Maas: – I don’t take anyone very seriously.

Ms. Wendell: I fly around, and I make jokes!

Ms. Maas: [Laughs] Yeah, exactly! But then I start thinking like, oh God, like, who’s the Charlotte of, like, the Night Court? Like, who has to marry Mr. Collins?

Ms. Amanda: It all comes back to Charlotte!

Ms. Maas: It all comes back to her and that Mr. Collins, and I just, like – [laughs] – he’s, like – I just, I cannot get over, like, the image of, like, Mr. Collins in, like, the Night Court and, like, having, like, going around to Rhysand and, like, who he would, like, who would marry Mr. Collins? No one would marry him.

Ms. Amanda: Have you talked to someone about your Mr. Collins obsession? [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: Well, I do have a therapy session –

Ms. Amanda: Yeah, maybe –

Ms. Maas: – at 2:30 today, so I will bring it up –

[Laughter]

Ms. Maas: – with my therapist! ‘Cause clearly there is some, like, weird shit happening there that, like, causes me to, like, obsess about things that absolutely, like, disgust and horrify me.

Ms. Amanda: Like, Mr. Collins keeps invading my thoughts!

Ms. Maas: [Laughs]

Ms. Amanda: What does this mean?

Ms. Wendell: No one, no one deserves the oily, the oily, looming presence of Mr. Collins.

Ms. Amanda: No.

Ms. Wendell: We should all be free of the oily, oily, obsequious, toadying grossness of Mr. Collins.

Ms. Maas: [Laughs]

Ms. Wendell: You deserve to be free of that nemesis.

Ms. Maas: Yeah, thank, thank you.

[Laughter]

Ms. Maas: Thank you! Thank you for that.

Ms. Wendell: So yeah, let’s definitely exorcise that. Bleah!

Sarahs: Bleah!

Ms. Amanda: Exorcise Mr. Collins!

Ms. Wendell: I did want to ask you about the portrayal of anxiety in this book, if you don’t mind –

Ms. Maas: Yes.

Ms. Wendell: – talking about it –

Ms. Maas: Yeah!

Ms. Wendell: – because Nesta experiences anxiety as cold water –

Ms. Maas: Mm-hmm.

Ms. Wendell: – in a lot of ways, and cold and, and emptiness, and I hadn’t, I hadn’t really encountered that sort of an allegory, but wow! Yes, does that ever fit. It’s the, the cold of the Cauldron and the cold of water and just the cold of being trapped, and in the acknowledgements you wrote that it’s not exactly your experience, but that those moments needed to be written.

Ms. Maas: Mm-hmm.

Ms. Wendell: What has been the response so far, been like to those moments? And was that something that was, was, was challenging for you to write?

Ms. Maas: Okay, so I don’t, like, go online and read stuff, like, about myself. That’s not, like, it’s not my jam, so, like, I, so, but, like, from the friends who have texted, it seems like, you know, Nesta’s mental health journey has resonated with a lot of people, and that means the world to me, ‘cause I – so even though I began writing this years ago, I wound up deciding that I was just kind of like go back to page one and rewrite nearly everything, and a big part of that decision was that during those years that the story kind of sat in my mind, I went through, like, my own mental health journey and struggle, and you, you know, I talked to you guys about this last time, but, like, I, I have now, you know, it’s been a year now since I talked to you guys, and I’ve done a lot of therapy and reflecting since then, and I really learned about my anxiety in a way that, like, when it’s happening now, I’m able to, like, almost take, like, mental notes about it. So, like, that sense of, like, that cold, like, the acid, like, going through Nesta, like, those were details I was able to add because, like, that’s how my anxiety  manifests, and it was ha-, like, it was easy and it was hard to write about it.

Ms. Wendell: Yep.

Ms. Maas: Like, it was easy because I knew exactly how Nesta felt, like, and even though a lot of the details between us are very, very different, like, I have been there, and I, you know, I’m still going through that. And it was hard because putting myself through that journey with Nesta, like, going on that emotional, like, walking that path with her, literally, like, as I was going through it, you know, as I was facing my anxiety, my depression, like, my trauma, like, all of that, like, doing that in real life, but then also every day showing up to my computer and going on that journey with Nesta, like, it just, it was hard and it was draining, but it was so, like, healing for me in a way? And that’s why, like, when I talk about this book and, you know, the ending of this book being, you know, a happy ending, like, I don’t see it as an ending. It is more like Nesta getting to a place where she can start fully embracing her life and enjoying her life and, you know, becoming the person that she wants to be, but she struggled with how, like, how to become that person, and struggled with the weight of, like, the past. And I just, like, this book, like, means so much to me in, like, so many ways, and there are, like, I mean, I think I cried writing about like probably two-thirds of this book, just because it hit that, that vein of, like, like, pain and hope and – there was just a lot, a lot of, like, real-life stuff that I went through that, you know, friends have talked to me about their own experiences that just, it felt – like, it all kind of channeled into Nesta, and it’s not that I sat down and I was like, I want to write a book about mental health. It’s just, Nesta was that character who, she had gone through stuff, and she wasn’t a perfect person, and I have zero interest in writing about sweet little perfect people who have no problems. ‘Cause, I mean, like, I’ve literally never met someone who doesn’t have, like, problems, and if they don’t, then they’re probably, like, a serial killer or something?

[Laughter]

Ms. Maas: But, you know, good for them if they don’t. But I just, I wanted the book to convey the sense of, like, like, every single person is worthy of that journey of, of self-discovery and self-love, and that the past doesn’t have to define you. That you can look at the past and acknowledge the past and the hard parts of it, but you can also move on.

[music]

Ms. Wendell: This quick break serves two purposes: first, to invite you to our podcast after parties, Tuesdays, 7:30 p.m. Eastern on Stereo. If you’ve attended one of our live shows or if you want to talk back to us while you’re listening, this is perfect. Welcome. You are so invited. Tuesday nights at 7:30, Amanda and I host a very silly podcast after party on Stereo. You can download Stereo at stereo.com/smartbitches. You’ll be able to listen to us live and record messages, and I can guarantee we talk about food and books. Sue hangs out with us and recently commented on one of our Instagram posts, “You guys make me so happy. It’s like talking with friends, and then you screech about entirely inconsequential things as though they were incredibly important,” and yes, that is exactly what we do, and we would love for you to join us. Download Stereo at stereo.com/smartbitches so you can connect with us when we’re live Tuesdays, 7:30 Eastern. That’s stereo.com/smartbitches, Tuesdays, 7:30 p.m. Eastern.

[TRIGGER and CONTENT WARNING]

The following section, for the next fifteen minutes, contains discussion of assault, attempted assault, and a lot of rage, so if that’s not something you are able to listen to, I want you to be safe: you should skip ahead to about one hour and five minutes [about 1:05:00]. But don’t worry; there is a little ton of podcast after that. Thank you for taking care of yourself.

Ms. Maas: Like, weirdly enough, I just watched this movie called Promising Young Woman; have you guys seen that?

Ms. Wendell: Yes, I have heard of it!

Ms. Maas: Oh my God! That movie, like, I feel like that’s like a perfect pairing for this book, weirdly. Like, I don’t want to spoil things in, in the movie, and, like, there aren’t, like, very many similarities, but it’s just about female trauma and rage and how you move on or you don’t move on from it, and, I mean, that movie, like, that movie fucked me up. Like, I, I, I finished it, like, you know, like the other week, and I literally stayed up wide awake in bed until about 3:30 in the morning, and I couldn’t, I couldn’t stop thinking about the movie and then about, like, my own experiences as a woman and –

Ms. Wendell: Yep.

Ms. Maas: – like, you know, and just, like the stuff, like, in college that I, like, went through but then had just kind of like glossed over, like, in –

Ms. Wendell: Yep.

Ms. Maas: – recent years and then, it just, that movie just really, it really made me, me think, and, like, the next morning I, I came downstairs and said to Josh, my husband, I was like, I was up all night thinking about that movie and thinking about college and, like, all the things that, like, happened that, like, I didn’t know, like, I, I knew at the time, but I didn’t know, like –

Ms. Wendell: Mm-hmm.

Ms. Maas: – were so fucked up.

Ms. Wendell: Yep.

Ms. Maas: And he, and he, you know, kind of had the same, like, haunted look where, you know, we – I mean, not to, like, go totally off topic here, but, like, I loved college, and I love my school, but, like, you know, it was like any college. Like, there was some, like, fucked-up stuff that happened, and I, I remember my freshman year I was at this party with all my, my friends, and we had this, like, unspoken buddy system back then –

Ms. Wendell: Mm-hmm.

Ms. Maas: – that, like, like, we were, like, drunk assholes, me and my friends. Like, we were like just drunk, stupid assholes, okay. So, like, we weren’t, like, super aware, but, like, there was this, like, unspoken thing that we had where it was like we keep eyes on each other at all times. Like, we can go flirt with a guy; you can go, like, make out or whatever; but, like, we keep an eye out for each other; and it was never set. It was just like a thing; like, we had each others’ backs; and I was so, I’m so grateful for that in hindsight; but at this one party, Josh and I – we, we met my freshman year of college; he was a junior; it was very scandalous – but Josh and I were flirting at this party; and I was pretty, like, drunk and, like, you know, just twirling my hair, talking to him; and out of the corner of my eye I see, like, one of my, my floormates and good friends kind of like drunkenly being led out of the party by this guy; and, like – I feel like this might sound, like, slightly controversial – but my friend looked like, you know, she looked like Angelina Jolie. Like, she was like this stunning, stone-cold girl; and, like, the guy that she was leaving with was not; and, like, it just kind of like, it was like this glaring thing where I was like, wait, what’s happening here? And so I went over to her and this guy, and my friend could barely stand up straight, and I was like – you know, I, I won’t say her name – but I was like, where, where are you, where are you guys going?

Ms. Wendell: Where are you going?

Ms. Maas: Like, what, where are you going? And she couldn’t even, she was like, we’re going to the bar. I was like, what? Like, what, where the fuck are you going? And, like, the guy, who was not as drunk as her, he basically said, get the fuck out of my way, bitch. Like, he said that to me.

Ms. Wendell: [Gasps]

Ms. Maas: And I said, like, I said, I grabbed my friend’s arm and I said, like hell are you leaving with this guy. You don’t know him! Like, I’ve never seen this person in my life, and the guy was just like, he of course resorted to that, like, you know, get the fuck out of here, bitch. Like, leave me –

Ms. Wendell: Mm-hmm.

Ms. Maas: – leave me alone, and I have no idea what would have happened at that point, because Josh came over and was like, what the fuck? Like, let her go. Like, I will fucking beat the shit out of you. Like, literally! I think that’s pretty much –

Ms. Wendell: Yeah.

Ms. Maas: – like, verbatim. And, and this was one of the things that I thought about after I watched this movie, was it took another guy. Like, you know –

Ms. Wendell: Yep.

Ms. Maas: – a six-foot two, like, jacked guy coming up to this shithead and threatening him for him to back off, and he fin-, and the guy finally did. He was like, well, fuck you, bitch, and, like –

Ms. Wendell: Yep.

Ms. Maas: – walked away, and my friend spent the rest of the night puking up boxed wine and red M&Ms, and, like, it was just, like, disgusting.

Ms. Wendell: [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: And, but she was like, she was a mess and, but it was one of those things where I – like, I mean, it definitely stayed with me, but –

Ms. Wendell: Mm-hmm.

Ms. Maas: – in hindsight I, you know, just think about – it, it was probably ten seconds that it would have taken her to walk out the door with that guy, and by pure luck I was angled at the party, flirting with Josh drunkenly in a way where I just saw her and this creep –

Ms. Wendell: Mm-hmm.

Ms. Maas: – and that was the ki-, like, those were the kinds of things. Like, I, I was an RA later on in college, and I had these little freshman girls get, like, come home from parties roofied. Like, literally come home, like, carried by their, their girlfriends and, like, roofied. And it wasn’t that frequent, but it was just stuff that, that lingered with me, and there’s such a, a rage that, like, I, I, I felt after watching this movie, but I think even with Nesta’s story and this book, like, some of that went into – like, Nesta, you know, was a victim of sexual assault herself, and – this is, like, such a weird, like, I feel like if you wrote this in a movie, like, you would think like this was impossible, but my junior year of college, I was an RA, and there was this, like, drunk asshole, like, wandering the halls at like two in the morning, and so –

Ms. Wendell: Oof.

Ms. Maas: – I got up, and Josh was vis- – Josh was two years older than me, so he had already graduated, but he was visiting me that weekend – and so at like two in the morning this, like, drunk, I heard this drunk banging on all the doors in, like, our hallway, and I was like, I’m so fucking tired, and, like, I need to go, like, tell this guy to shut up, so I open up the door, and I’m like, dude. Like, you’ve got to be quiet, and this, like, massive dude turns around, and lo and behold, it’s the same guy from my freshman year who tried to take my friend home –

Ms. Amanda: No!

Ms. Maas: – from that party, and I’d not, like, I, like, basically had not seen him since.

Ms. Wendell: Whoooa!

Ms. Maas: Yeah. Yeah. Like, you can’t make this up. And so I instantly was like, you, you fucker. I was like, get the fuck out of here, and the guy, like, wouldn’t leave. He was looking for someone who didn’t live on the floor. He was banging on all the doors. He had, like, a giant thing of, like, soda in his hands. Like, he was just like a drunken mess, and so I finally was like, if you don’t leave right now, like, I’m calling campus security, and he took this massive thing of soda that he had, like, you know, a, a full-on like giant thing, and he threw it at my head so hard that it shat-, like, the plastic broke and it shattered, and he had, he threw it at my face, intending to, I think it would have broken my face if it had hit me.

Ms. Wendell: Oh my gosh!

Ms. Maas: Yeah, and Josh, like, literally, like, I, I have yet to ever see him get that mad as he, like, he, like, he became like superhuman in that moment. He leapt out of bed, like, naked and, like, like, I, I had to block the doorway to keep Josh from going into the hall to kill this guy. And it was – like, the guy, like, was just belligerent and, like, like, he had thrown that thing to, to hurt me, and there was like, you know, long story short, like, I wound up, like, taking him to, like, the school’s, like, judicial board for, like, a hearing, and he got a slap on the wrist, and what –

Ms. Wendell: Of course.

Ms. Maas: – disgusted me was that he was on one of the sports teams and his coach wrote – who I knew from, like, you know, I, mandatory gym classes – his coach wrote me an email being like, can we meet and talk? You know, so-and-so, you know, was just drunk, and, like, he’s a really nice guy, which is, like, in, in that movie –

Ms. Wendell: No.

Ms. Maas: – Promising Young Woman, like, that’s the thing: like, you know, I’m a nice guy, and –

Ms. Wendell: Yep!

Ms. Maas: – the, like, his coach literally tried to convince me to drop charges against him, and I knew that he wasn’t a nice guy. Even if I hadn’t seen him try to, like, drag my friend off at a party, I knew he wasn’t a nice guy.

Ms. Wendell: He’s nice to you; you’re his coach!

Ms. Maas: Yeah, you’re his coach, yeah.

Ms. Wendell: Duh!

Ms. Maas: And, like, like, in that boys’ club, like, yeah, everyone’s a nice guy.

Ms. Wendell: Of course! Ugh!

Ms. Maas: And years and years later, like, once I started doing therapy, I wound up talking to my therapist about this, about – and I don’t even know why I wound up talking to her about it – and I was like, you know, I don’t know why I’m still, like, so upset about this, like, years later. And I was like, it wasn’t like I was, like, assaulted or anything, and my therapist was like, that was assault, what he did to you. He threw something at you intending to break your face, and if that, like, bottle had hit your face, he would have broken your nose and possibly more. Like, he was like a, like a very strong athlete, and he threw that –

Ms. Wendell: Yep.

Ms. Maas: – like, with all of his force and by, like, yeah, pure luck, it didn’t hit my face. And I wound up having to quit my job as an RA ‘cause it, like, I didn’t realize it at the time, but it fucking traumatized me, and I didn’t want to deal with that any-, I didn’t want to deal –

Ms. Wendell: Of course!

Ms. Maas: – with drunk assholes anymore and, like, having to be targeted for, like, you know, asking someone to not be drunken, like, a drunken asshole at two in the morning. And I wound up getting, like, the school was actually, like, my college was great about supporting me. Like, residential life was great and, like, you know, jump ahead to a happy ending, like, you know, even though I quit my job the next, as an RA, the next semester, a job opened up in, like, the nicest dorm on campus? So I got to be, like, RA, like, in that dorm, which was like, it was all, like, seniors and stuff and they were, like, chill and, like, you know, no one threw parties. So it worked out well and I felt very supported, but it was just – this is a very, very long story – but it was just one of those things that after I watched Promising Young Woman, I just thought about that, about some of my friends’ stories, about some of the other shit that’s, like, gone down in my life, and I felt such a current of rage and –

Ms. Wendell: Yep.

Ms. Maas: – and, like, rage at what had been done, you know, like the guys who catcalled – I grew up in New York City and, like, you know, walking past the construction guys –

Ms. Wendell: Yep.

Ms. Maas: – when I was twelve years old, twelve, and having them catcall me? Like, like, a little girl. Like, I look at a twelve-year-old now and I’m like, that’s a baby! And, like, you know, to have them do – and, like, there’s a moment in Promising Young Woman where she faces down these, like, catcalling construction guys, and that, I almost burst out crying in that moment, and it was interesting ‘cause Josh, he, like, he understood that moment, but he didn’t, like, he’s never had to deal with that, like, the terror of, like, wondering like, okay, these guys are catcalling, I hate them, but if I give them the finger, will one of them flip out and come over and, like, kill me or rape me or any of that?

Ms. Wendell: Mm-hmm.

Ms. Maas: And with Nesta and, and her journey, you know, she, she faced some of that awful male behavior, and it left her with this sense of, she never wants to be, like, feel helpless again, but also the rage at feeling like you, you are, and how that leads to some of the, you know, anxieties and traumas that she has.

Ms. Wendell: Mm-hmm.

Ms. Maas: And I’ve, like, never talked about, like, my college experience publicly, so, like, this is, like, weird. I feel like I’m going to, like, leave this call and be like, ooh, like –

Ms. Amanda: [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: – I hope I didn’t, like –

Ms. Wendell: Humility hangover, yep.

Ms. Maas: Yeah. But it just, I feel like I don’t, and again, like, I think that’s kind of symptomatic of this culture that we have now of, like –

Ms. Wendell: Yeah.

Ms. Maas: – women – like, I found – and that’s what this movie did: like, it made me think of how many times I’ve made excuses for, like, what –

Ms. Wendell: Mm-hmm.

Ms. Maas: – I went through, what my friends when through, and just, like, diminishing that. Like, diminishing –

Ms. Wendell: Oh yeah.

Ms. Maas: Saying, like, you know, well, the guy didn’t break my face when he threw that thing at me –

Ms. Wendell: So it wasn’t really assault.

Ms. Maas: – so it wasn’t assault.

Ms. Wendell: Oooh.

Ms. Maas: Like, if it had hit me –

Ms. Wendell: It was assault.

Ms. Maas: – that would have been assault, and, you know, if he had, like, you know, if he had hit me with the bottle or if he had physically hit me, like, that, that was somehow valid, but because –

Ms. Wendell: Yep.

Ms. Maas: – he missed in his drunken rage –

Ms. Wendell: Yep.

Ms. Maas: – that, that doesn’t count. And that’s, it’s so fucked up. And it just –

Ms. Wendell: It’s so fucked up.

Ms. Amanda: There’s a lot of, like, accommodation that we as women have to do, like, in our daily lives. Like you said with your friends –

Ms. Maas: Mm-hmm.

Ms. Amanda: – like, keep eyes on each other. Like, you know, text me when you get home so I know you made it home safe. You know, like –

Ms. Wendell: If you’re leaving the house, which we don’t do anymore.

Ms. Amanda and Ms. Maas: Yeah.

Ms. Amanda: Or –

Ms. Wendell: We’re literally safe as houses now.

Ms. Maas: Yeah. [Laughs]

Ms. Amanda: Or, like, you know, when I would get out of grad school classes at ten o’clock at night, like, you know, call someone on your walk to the subway station –

Ms. Maas: Yep.

Ms. Amanda: Or –

Ms. Maas: Yep.

Ms. Amanda: – just, like, these small things. Just, like, okay, well, do I go this route where I know, like, there’s currently a group of guys standing on the corner just, like, shooting the shit or whatever –

Ms. Maas: Mm-hmm.

Ms. Amanda: – or do I, you know, go down one street that’s quieter and more residential, but there’s no, like, streetlights. Like –

Ms. Wendell: Yep.

Ms. Amanda: – you have to weigh these choices in terms of, like, your personal safety and, like –

Ms. Maas: Yeah.

Ms. Amanda: – what you’re comfortable with –

Ms. Wendell: Mm-hmm.

Ms. Amanda: – usually because you are fearful of men –

Ms. Maas: Yeah.

Ms. Wendell: Mm-hmm.

Ms. Amanda: – and what they will do to you! And –

Ms. Maas: Exactly.

Ms. Amanda: – I can understand like that piling up and getting angry of like, why should I have to live like that –

Ms. Maas: Mm-hmm.

Ms. Amanda: – because I’m doing nothing wrong. Like, the onus and the responsibility is on other people. Why should I have to, you know, rearrange my life and my schedule and my comfort –

Ms. Wendell: Mm-hmm.

Ms. Amanda: – just so I feel safe –

Ms. Maas: Mm-hmm.

Ms. Amanda: – when –

Ms. Maas: Yeah.

Ms. Amanda: – you know, I’m just –

Ms. Maas: Yeah, I mean, the, the car keys, the car keys through –

Ms. Amanda: Yeah!

Ms. Maas: – the fingers, like –

Ms. Wendell: Yeah.

Ms. Maas: – that, and – it’s exhaust-, like, it’s an exhausting thing to have to constantly, like, just think about those things. Like, I – like, when I was a kid, like, again, like, I grew up in New York City, and I was so dumb. Like, I did things as a teenager that I would never do now, and I think it’s only by the grace –

Ms. Wendell: I think everyone does, looks, that looks at their lives –

Ms. Maas: Yeah.

Ms. Wendell: – and is like, whoa! [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: I mean, I, I would get, like, blackout wasted with my friends and blow all of my, like, cab money that my parents gave me on booze – which my parents had no idea what was going on – so I would take the subway home, like, drunk at, like, one, two in the morning, like, when I was like sixteen, seventeen years old, and then, like, you know, have a couple block walk in the dark from the subway to my parents’ house, and, like, I, I would never do that now, and I think it’s only by, you know, the grace of the universe that, like, nothing ever, like, you know, truly awful happened to me. But it just makes me sad that, like, as you get old-, like, I, you know, I was reckless back then, but I didn’t know, you know, but then, like, as I got older, like, when I, by the time I got to college, I had that system with my friends that was like, you keep eyes on each other at a party. You know, you, you check in with each other; like, if someone’s leaving with a guy, you do like that check-in of, like, do you, like, are you good? Like, are you, like, you want to hook up with, you, you, you’re willing to go all the way with this dude. Like, you’re, like, you – so you do that, like, check-in with them just to make sure that, like, what’s going on is okay, and – I’m kind of sick and tired of the weight of that. Like, that always being on us –

Ms. Wendell: Yeah.

Ms. Maas: – instead of –

Ms. Wendell: Yep.

Ms. Maas: – guys learning not to fucking do that. Like –

Ms. Wendell: Yeah!

Ms. Maas: – don’t, don’t fucking rape someone! Like, if a girl – and that’s why, like, this movie, like, it just, it’s su-, like, again and again, like, hits, like, you know, it just, like, comes at these guys who see themself, -selves as, I’m just a good guy. I wouldn’t do that. Like, I, I, you know, a girl’s drunk, like, I would never do that, but then they do, and they find excuses for it again and again and again, and the men around them find excuses for it, and it just enrages me. Like, I just, like, it, it enrages me, and I – yeah, I, I have, like, no idea how we wound up on this topic, but it’s just something that’s, like, now that I’ve started thinking about it, I can’t, like, unthink it almost.

Ms. Wendell: Mm-hmm.

Ms. Maas: And I, like, I’m still processing, like – it’s a long, long fucking story – but, like, I, like, had, like, guys coming up to me ‘cause of some, like, nonsense, like, drama that wasn’t even true and literally calling me a fucking bitch, like, to my fa-; like, I hate that. There’s a, there’s a line in ACoSF where I think, like, you know, some guys call them, like, the girls, like, bitches, and they’re like, find something new to call us instead! And like, that’s –

Ms. Amanda: [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: – I can’t, like, tell you how many times I’ve been called a bitch in my life.

Ms. Wendell: Put it on my business cards.

Ms. Maas: Yeah! [Laughs]

Ms. Wendell: Takes the sting out of it when you just be like, yeah, and what else do you have?

Ms. Maas: Yeah, exactly.

Ms. Wendell: Please try again –

Ms. Maas: Yeah, come up with something new –

Ms. Wendell: – that has been used.

Ms. Maas: – to call me, please.

Ms. Wendell: Yep.

Ms. Amanda: But there is, like, a certain moment where, like, as you go, get older, like the veil is lifted from something –

Ms. Wendell: Yep.

Ms. Amanda: – and, like, that’s all you can see, and, like –

Ms. Maas: Yeah.

Sarahs: Yep!

Ms. Amanda: – you’re, you’re, like, hyperaware of it and, you know, I forgot who I was talking to, but it was, like, a guy, and I’m like, what do you mean, you’ve never felt unsafe walking to your car? Like, that is my default! Like –

Ms. Maas: Yeah.

Ms. Wendell: Mm-hmm.

Ms. Amanda: Like –

Ms. Maas: Yeah. That’s –

Ms. Wendell: There is, there is a new genre I think of as Earl Had to Die? Which is all of these books of women getting revenge on shitty-ass men.

Ms. Maas: [Laughs]

Ms. Wendell: Very specifically and carefully getting revenge on shitty men who did shitty things and got away with it? And let me tell you, it is so cathartic and satisfying.

Ms. Maas: Mm-hmm.

Ms. Wendell: And I like that about A Court of Silver Flames, that not only does Nesta learn that she is welcoming and deserving of love and a safe home – like, the, the symbolism of where she lives in this book is really beautiful – but she learns, basically, to be the car key in the hand?

Ms. Maas: Yeah.

Ms. Wendell: She becomes the car key and the person who holds it, but it’s actually more like a four-foot shiv –

[Laughter]

Ms. Wendell: – when she’s done? Like, she channels her rage into coming into herself –

Ms. Maas: Yep.

Ms. Wendell: – as a powerful individual, which is so fucking satisfying!

Ms. Maas: [Laughs] No, and I think, like, even though I’m kind of now starting to process this, I think, like, the current of that feeling of rage and satisfaction, like, that came from that place in me that I had kind of like –

Ms. Wendell: Yep!

Ms. Maas: – closed off and, like, flowed into her book, and I think that image of, like, Nesta be-, like, Nesta is the fist with the car keys, like, you know, sticking out, like, that is her. Like, where she is like, you know, it’s like a fucked-up, like, Edward Scissorhands, I feel like she is. [Laughs] It’s like, she is coming for you! And it, it felt very liberating, like, during – okay, no spoilers – but during the end of the book, like, Nesta kind of goes, like, head-to-head with a bunch of like, kind of like bro-dudes.

Ms. Wendell: Yep.

Ms. Maas: [Laughs] Their, their equivalent of, like, warrior bro-dudes, and, like, seeing her just, like, destroy them was so satisfying! And I, I will never get sick of writing about that kind of stuff.

Ms. Wendell: Nooo!

Ms. Maas: No!

Ms. Wendell: I have some questions and comments from people in my Patreon group –

Ms. Maas: Okay.

Ms. Wendell: – that I would like to share with you, because –

Ms. Maas: Yeah.

Ms. Wendell: – first of all, they’re a nice, they’re a big dose of compliments, but they’ve asked some really, really lovely and thoughtful questions.

Ms. Maas: Oh, okay!

Ms. Wendell: So you ready?

Ms. Maas: Yeah!

Ms. Wendell: Okay, so first of all, Becca says:

Your interview with Sarah last year was one of my favorites on the show and what finally got me to read her books after knowing about them and how enthusiastic her fandom is for way too long. I started with ACoTaR, which I then got my sister to read, and almost a full year later, not a week goes by without talking about those books and those characters.

Ms. Maas: Ohhh!

Ms. Wendell: After ACoTaR, I spent the rest of the year going through her entire catalogue. In many ways, Sarah got me through 2020, and that’s not an exaggeration. I’m honestly just love to tell her thank you, and I wanted to ask about her writing process. There is no small amount of worldbuilding. SERIOUSLY, how does she do it? My theory is that the reason you live in a multi-hundred-year-old house is that the walls and the floors need to be sufficiently strong enough to hold your story bible –

[Laughter]

Ms. Wendell: – which is probably forty-five pounds, but that is only a working theory.

Ms. Maas: [Laughs] Well, they don’t make houses like they used to, so –

Ms. Wendell: No.

[Laughter]

Ms. Maas: – I needed, I needed this, these old floorboards and the brick foundation and whatever crap this house is built on. But I – so we have story bibles and world bibles, but I, like, don’t really use, like, like – most of it’s, like, up in my head? Like, I’ve started having to write it all down, like, in a Word document, just because now that I’m a mom, I think, like, most of my brain got eaten –

Ms. Wendell: Oh yeah.

Ms. Maas: – by my child?

Ms. Wendell: Oh yeah. Mom brain is very, very real.

Ms. Maas: [Laughs] It is! But the worldbuilding, I don’t know; it just kind of comes out of, like, just being curious about the world and asking questions and posi- – and, like, it doesn’t, like, when I write a first draft, like, a lot of the worldbuilding details will just be left blank. Like, characters have many conversations in empty spaces where, like, I’m like, I don’t even have, like, the setting for them yet. And then in, like, subsequent drafts, like, I’ll start going in and layering, like, the, the details that I think really make it come alive; you know, everything from the street food that’s being offered to, you know, I don’t know, I – there’s a lot of food detail, food and clothing details, which, like, even though I don’t, like, wear clothes anymore, like, I’m like, wearing, like, my dirty old workout clothes right now? Like, there’s a lot of, like, dress details, and, you know, food. Everyone’s always eating, and I think that’s ‘cause I’m usually eating when I write. Like, I like one hand –

[Laughter]

Ms. Maas: – one hand on the keyboard, and the other one’s, like, you know, popping Cheetos.

Ms. Wendell: Good plan!

Ms. Maas: Yeah, yeah! So the, I mean, the world just, I don’t know. The worlds often feel like their own character, and I try to develop them, like, as their own character, where it’s not like I’m –

Ms. Wendell: It’s literally true in this one.

Ms. Maas: Yeah, yeah, exactly! And, you know, I think about, you know, the, the history and, like, the, the layout of the worlds almost as, like, a character, with their own backstory and, like, their, you know, how do they appear? And all of that. But I, I’m not like a scientific type writer by any – like, I’m not like Tolkien, like, planning out, like histories and maps and all of that stuff. Like, I just –

Ms. Wendell: The whole-ass set of languages.

Ms. Maas: Yeah, no. That’s not –

Ms. Wendell: [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: That is not me. I don’t have the time for that. And I wish I was smart enough to do that. But the world just kind of, they, they all come out of this organic place. But thank you, Becca, for saying such nice, like, things. I’m, like, really honored that my books played a role in helping you through 2020.

Ms. Wendell: Strap in; I have more. [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: Okay. Oh God. All right.

Ms. Amanda: – expecting us to, like, roast you, Sarah? [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: No!

Ms. Wendell: Yeah. Like, what?

Ms. Maas: I just –

Ms. Wendell: No!

Ms. Maas: I’m, I’m deeply uncomfortable with, like, people saying nice things about me, which, again, like, I guess I’ll bring up with my therapist this afternoon?

Ms. Amanda: [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: And just because, like, in my day-to-day life, like, I feel, like, constantly like such a hot mess that I just, like, anyone saying nice things, I’m like, you –

Ms. Amanda: You don’t know. [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: – you don’t know! [Laughs] You don’t know, like, what, like, yeah, the state of disaster that is my home and, like, you know, the, just, it’s just, I don’t know, it’s, I’m very uncomfortable with people being nice to me, which sounds – now I feel, like, bad for myself, having said that?

Ms. Wendell: It’s deeply normal, though. I feel the same way.

Ms. Amanda: Yeah.

Ms. Wendell: Yep. Rachel also wanted me to tell you, and she has a question about character. Rachel says:

Maas’s books also helped me get through 2020, and on the last day of the year I got a tattoo on my left forearm as a promise and reminder to myself to be brave, and only upon rereading the series did I realize what had inspired that idea. Sarah had this remarkable ability to transform characters from people I loathe into people I love and trust, and I’m so excited to read about Nesta. I trust her to bring Nesta around, so I want to know, how do you plan for a character’s ascension or downfall in the heart of the reader?

And is the other thing you traffic is, in, isn’t it? It’s pining and, like, character boomerangs.

Ms. Maas: [Laughs] I, I don’t know why I love that kind of thing. Like, I just get such a sick satisfaction out of, like, making characters that seem absolutely unlikeable and then –

Ms. Wendell: You’re the hero next!

Ms. Maas: Yeah, and, I mean, there are some characters in this book that, I don’t want to spoil things, but, like, you can kind of tell, like, how I’m setting them up for future books? But I just, I think I’m so curious all the time about, like, why – like, even if someone’s an asshole, like, why? Like, what, what makes them tick? Like, even before I went into therapy I wanted to know, like, why, why are these characters like that? Like, you know, what’s their, their secret backstory that led them to act this way? And, you know, sometimes it’s, you know, they’re just an asshole, but then sometimes they actually do have, like, you know, reasons why. And Nesta, in this book, I didn’t want to excuse her past behavior, and I deliberately –

Ms. Wendell: Right.

Ms. Maas: – wrote her in the previous books in such a way where, like, I kind of, like, knew, like, what she had gone through, but I, like, I didn’t want to make her this, like, nice, sweet sister. Like, that wasn’t interesting to me. There wasn’t conflict, and, you know, it didn’t drive the plot anywhere. But I, I wanted Nesta to be able to own up to her mistakes in the past, but also start reflecting on where, where some of that destructive behavior comes – like, self-destructive and then also, like, hurtful towards other people. Where does that –

Ms. Wendell: Mm-hmm.

Ms. Maas: – where does that come from? And I, I didn’t sit down, like, intentionally thinking like, I’m going to write this book just so, like, you know, I can mess with people’s minds and make them love Nesta!

Ms. Amanda: [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: It was just, she’s the kind of character that I’m drawn to, where she acts a certain way – like she, it’s like the tip of the iceberg. You see that, like, you know, that cold exterior, and then, like, beneath the water there’s, like, all this, you know –

Ms. Wendell: Big ol’ mess!

Ms. Maas: – this stuff going on that’s going to destroy the Titanic, and –

Ms. Wendell: [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: – ruin Rose and Jack.

Ms. Wendell: And here comes the great ship Cassian. Hello –

[Laughter]

Ms. Wendell: – sexy iceberg! [Laughs]

Ms. Amanda: I would say, like, that’s my catnip in reading?

Ms. Wendell: Oh for sure!

Ms. Amanda: In, like, reading and in real life? Like, I’ve been in and out of therapy most of my life at this point, so when someone does something or, like, it’s, you know, like, not, like, triggering, but, like, is noticeable, I’m like, ooh, what trauma is there behind this decision?

Ms. Maas: [Laughs]

Ms. Amanda: Like, who hurt you? And it’s like –

Ms. Wendell: Yep.

Ms. Amanda: – like, the wheels start turning.

Ms. Wendell: What is the root motivation for this?

Ms. Amanda: I know! It’s like –

Ms. Maas: Exactly!

Ms. Amanda: – what happened here?

Ms. Wendell: And I also noticed that when – so my, my husband and I both have anxiety, but in completely different ways?

Ms. Maas: Mm-hmm.

Ms. Wendell: And so a lot of the time when we have an argument, it’s about how my anxiety coping mechanisms have inadvertently stepped on his anxiety and made him feel anxious, or vice versa –

Ms. Maas: Yep.

Ms. Wendell: – and it’s like, okay, well, I have to do it this way so that I don’t feel this way. Okay, fine, but if you do that, then I’m – ohhh! Okay!

Ms. Maas: [Laughs] Exactly. I mean – okay, I’m not going to talk about Josh’s stuff, ‘cause I don’t think he’s even talked about it on his own – but, like, we have a lot of the same things where, like, I will act a certain way that then, like, triggers, like, his own, like, behavior to act a certain way –

Ms. Wendell: Right!

Ms. Maas: – and, like, you’re absolutely, absolutely right.

Ms. Wendell: That’s the secret of relationships and partnership: the –

Ms. Maas: Yes.

Ms. Wendell: – the arguments are actually about how you nudge each other’s anxieties and don’t mean to! [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: Exactly! Exactly! Exactly. But I think that’s – like, with this book I tried to, like, show different types of – like, like, there isn’t like one-size-fits-all anxiety. Like, it manifests in so many –

Ms. Wendell: No!

Ms. Maas: – different ways, and trauma manifests in so many different ways, and –

Ms. Wendell: Damn it! [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: – Nesta and, and – [laughs] – yeah! – Nesta and Emerie and Gwyn, they all have their own, like, horrible, like, intense histories that they, are still haunting them, and they manifest –

Ms. Wendell: Mm-hmm.

Ms. Maas: – in different ways in their lives. And, you know, everyone that I know who has, you know, struggled with mental health and, you know, it’s ongoing, they’re facing it, and, you know, that anxiety, and it manifests in so many different ways! It just, like, it’s like, it’s fascinating to me on this, like, weird, like, sad level, just, like, to see, like –

Ms. Wendell: Yep.

Ms. Maas: – how our brains and bodies do this kind of – like, you know, like, we talked about this earlier; like, Nesta’s anxiety and a lot of mine manifest as this kind of like cold, like, burning, like, acid type feeling –

Ms. Wendell: Yep.

Ms. Maas: – through my limbs, but I know other people whose anxiety manifests in a rapid heartbeat and they, like, can’t get a breath down.

Ms. Wendell: Mine is Mario Kart brain.

[Laughter]

Ms. Maas: What’s – ?

Ms. Wendell: 150 cc Mario Kart brain. My brain is on a track, and it is going like this, and it is just going to go, and you just got to have to deal with it, ‘cause your brain is now on warp speed, and it’ll –

Ms. Maas: Yep.

Ms. Wendell: – slow down eventually. And like you said earlier, Sarah, about when you can sort of see your anxiety? I woke up a couple of nights ago, it was two nights ago, around four in the morning with Mario Kart brain, and I had a moment of, oh wow, brain, you’re really anxious, aren’t you?

Ms. Maas: Yeah!

Ms. Wendell: Okay!

Ms. Maas: Yeah.

Ms. Wendell: All right!

Ms. Amanda: Mine’s the opposite of yours!

Ms. Wendell: I’m living here with you! [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: Sarah, I’m just picking your brain as like Rainbow Road? Like –

Ms. Wendell: Yes. That’s what it is.

Ms. Maas: [Laughs]

Ms. Wendell: And I’m really bad at staying on the fricking road!

Ms. Amanda: I, I am –

Ms. Wendell: Especially the Rainbow Road in space. Ugh!

Ms. Maas: I’m really good at that. Like, okay, I spent, we spent like a good like two months during this quarantine, like, just playing, like, like, like, we’ve, we’ve both played Mario Kart before, but, like, we just were like, we started at like 50 ccs and, like, worked our way, like, up and, like –

Ms. Wendell: Oh yeah, hardcore quest!

Ms. Maas: But there are some levels, like the desert level, that I am terrible at? Like, I cannot, like, bank or whatever, but, like, Rainbow –

Ms. Wendell: With the bouncing balls of poo? Yep.

Ms. Maas: Yes!

Ms. Wendell: I’m bad at that one.

Ms. Maas: Yes! But then Rainbow Road, every time, it’s like, I’m like, bring it, bitch! And I, like, show up –

[Laughter]

Ms. Maas: – and I am so – and, like, Josh is good at every other level. Josh is amazing. Like, no matter the speed, if it’s reverse, he’s so good at it, but Rainbow Road, literally –

Ms. Amanda: Your time to shine!

Ms. Wendell: It’s his nemesis.

Ms. Maas: – he, he starts, and it’s like, like somehow he just goes right off the edge. Like, he just –

[Laughter]

Ms. Maas: When it’s like, I’m, like, cruising and, like, doing it, like, perfectly. Like, I don’t know; I guess it’s like the more difficult it is, like, the more my brain, like, focuses, but –

Ms. Wendell: Yep.

Ms. Maas: – anyway, I – [laughs]

Ms. Amanda: But Sarah, my anxiety – Smart Bitches Sarah – my anxiety is different, like the opposite of yours. I, like, turn into –

Ms. Wendell: Really!

Ms. Amanda: – a slug person. It’s like, you know, like if I miss a deadline or, you know, like, I super stress, I’m just, I’m that photo of that little girl just lying in the asphalt in the rain? It’s like –

[Laughter]

Ms. Amanda: – like, I’m a failure! Nothing matters! Like, why do I have to do anything?

Ms. Wendell: Yep!

Ms. Amanda: That’s my anxiety. So instead of, like, going around just, like, why do I even bother?

[Laughter]

Ms. Wendell: It’s so unfair that it doesn’t manifest the same ‘cause it would be a lot easier to deal with.

Ms. Maas: [Laughs]

Ms. Wendell: So I do have another compliment for you if you can bear it, Sarah.

Ms. Maas: Oh God. Okay.

Ms. Wendell: Okay. Manda says:

It’s not really a question, and it’s sort of a niche, but I wanted to let you know, I always appreciate how PMS is just kind of a part of the heroine’s lives in a way you don’t really see in a lot of stories, and the guys are always super respectful and empathetic about the heroine’s plight. It is refreshing. Thank you.

Yes!

Ms. Maas: Yeah, I –

Ms. Wendell: So yes!

Ms. Maas: Can I, like – okay. [Laughs]

Ms. Wendell: Yes; whatever it is, yes, you can.

Ms. Maas: Let me, let me just – like, okay, so –

Ms. Wendell: Yes, you can; bring it.

Ms. Maas: – anytime I read, like, these epic fantasy books where these characters go on the quest, and it’s, like, women and men and elves and whatever, like, I al- – again, this is, like, kind of like the part of me that goes to, like, Charlotte and Mr. Collins. Like, I start thinking about periods. Like –

Ms. Amanda: Yes!

Ms. Maas: – my –

Ms. Wendell: Obviously!

Ms. Maas: When I get my period, I bleed so fucking much I’m like super-plus tampon like every two hours at the peak, like, craz- – like, and even then, like, layering with pads, and, like, if I had to go on a quest in epic fantasy times with no tampons, no –

Ms. Wendell: Forget it.

Ms. Maas: – pads, like, I literally would be, like, bloo-, like, dripping blood, like, down the path to Mordor.

Ms. Amanda: The bears would get you! Like –

Ms. Maas: The bears! [Laughs]

Ms. Wendell: Whatever you got, va-, bears, vampires, whatever, yeah. Yep. Oh yeah.

Ms. Amanda: They would just follow the trail.

Ms. Wendell: Yep. Are you dying? No, this is normal.

Ms. Amanda: This is normal.

Ms. Maas: [Laughs] But now it’s just that, like, so I –

Ms. Wendell: You need a healer? Well, yes, but – [laughs]

Ms. Maas: Yeah, but, like, that’s where it sprung out of was just this constant thought that I have of, like, periods exist, and they are a part of our, like, monthly lives, and they aren’t just like a little thing. Like, they – at least for me – like, they are this, like, like a week of disruption in my life –

Ms. Wendell: Oh!

Ms. Amanda: [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: – of, of gushing blood and pain and night sweats and just, like, I, and I just want that to be a part of the – if I have, if I have mental health in my books, I should have periods in my books! And, I mean, it’s the same with, like, bathroom stuff. Like, I constantly wonder, like, you know, on the quest to Mordor, like, where did Legolas take a shit? [Laughs] Like, did he, like, did they all have, like –

Ms. Wendell: A solid question.

Ms. Maas: Did they all –

Ms. Wendell: Did they dig a latrine every time?

Ms. Maas: Exactly.

Ms. Amanda: In Gimli’s helmet, that’s where he took a shit.

[Laughter]

Ms. Wendell: If in a future book there’s a, there’s a curse about Gimli’s helmet, we’re going to know why.

Ms. Amanda: Gimli’s helmet, that’s where he took a shit.

Ms. Wendell: Also, Sarah, I want to show you, on the back of my desk chair I have a heating pad, because it is approaching the Hellmouth time –

Ms. Maas: Oh God.

Ms. Wendell: – or as I call it, CSI: Oh God No.

Ms. Amanda: [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: I, I refer to my period as Carrie at Prom. Like –

[Laughter]

Ms. Maas: – buckets of blood, like, that is basically –

Ms. Amanda: I, I have it on my calendar as The Communists Are Coming? It’s –

Ms. Maas: [Laughs]

Ms. Amanda: – like a Red Scare.

[Laughter]

Ms. Amanda: So that’s how I refer to it.

[More laughter]

Ms. Maas: Like, I’m wheezing, I’m laughing so – oh my God, I love that!

Ms. Amanda: But it has, like, Communists and then the little emoji of, like, red footprints?

Ms. Maas: [Laughs]

Ms. Amanda: So, like, that’s a thing on my Google Calendar.

Ms. Wendell: Oh God.

[Laughter]

Ms. Wendell: Some people I know call it Shark Week, but that’s –

Ms. Amanda: Yeah.

Ms. Wendell: – much better.

Ms. Maas: [Laughs]

Ms. Amanda: But also, I would love, like, a Chosen One story, but, like, she’s like, can you guys come back like another time? Like, I’m just started my period, and I’ve got, like –

Ms. Wendell: This week is no good!

Ms. Amanda: – fatigue. Like, I’m not going to be able to get anything done. Like, can this wait?

Ms. Maas: [Laughs] See, that’s the thing! Like, I want those stories to exist, and I don’t – like, like, men who get, like, grossed out by it, like, I don’t even give – like, Josh has made so many – like, I literal- – this is probably like way, way, way TMI.

Ms. Amanda: [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: Well, first of all, he, like, buys me pads and tampons; like, he doesn’t even blink an eye, but, like –

Ms. Wendell: Oh yeah!

Ms. Maas: – secondly, like, this is – oh my God, I can’t believe I’m about to say this, but I literally, sometimes, like, you know when you, like, you’re in that point of your period and it looks like, like, there’s like an alien, like, baby almost coming out of you, like, there are globs of things?

Ms. Amanda: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah!

Ms. Maas: I literally will show, I’ll, like, hold up my tampon sometimes and be like, look at this!

Ms. Amanda: Check this out!

[Laughter]

Ms. Maas: Like, you see this?

Ms. Wendell: Wow, that’s a big one! Did you name it?

Ms. Maas: Yeah! [Laughs] And Josh will just say, oh, okay. Like, he just –

Ms. Amanda: That’s something.

Ms. Maas: – he doesn’t even, like, bat an eye at it! Like, I am endlessly fascinated by, like, the, like, chunks of things that come out of me, but he just like, God bless him –

Ms. Amanda: Yeah, you just want to, like, show someone. You’re like, I can’t –

Ms. Maas: Yeah!

Ms. Amanda: – believe this was in my body.

Ms. Maas: Yeah! [Laughs]

Ms. Wendell: Oh yeah.

Ms. Maas: I just have an, an endless fascination with, like, how much blood, I guess, comes out of me and, like, how it appears, but –

Ms. Amanda: [Laughs]

Ms. Wendell: And how fair is it that you do that and it’s a baby and everyone’s like, ooh, wow, let me see the baby! And it’s like –

Ms. Maas: Yeah.

Ms. Wendell: – hold up, I produce things every month –

Ms. Maas: [Laughs]

Ms. Amanda: You don’t want to know –

Ms. Wendell: – that are noteworthy, and nobody’s excited about that! I produce noteworthy elements of the universe every twenty-eight to thirty-four days.

Ms. Maas: Exactly!

Ms. Wendell: You’re only excited when it’s a whole other person. What’s up with that?

Ms. Maas: [Laughs] When it’s a whole other person, but then you still don’t want to know about the blood during childbirth and, like, shitting yourself or any of those –

Ms. Wendell: Oh dear God!

Ms. Maas: – parts of it –

Ms. Wendell: Nope, nobody wants to know about that.

Ms. Maas: Yeah. I just, I cannot deal with fragile men who are, like, so scared of, like, periods and, like, bodily functions of women? Like –

Ms. Wendell: Yep.

Ms. Maas: – I cannot deal with that. Like, that –

Ms. Wendell: Yep.

Ms. Maas: – I just, like, anytime, like, a guy’s like, ooh, it’s so gross, like, when, like, I’m just like, all right, you’re like a small, pathetic man. Like –

Ms. Amanda: It’s like, listen, I have to smell your gross barbecue farts in the car –

Ms. Maas: [Laughs]

Ms. Amanda: – on the way home from the restaurant. Like, I want to be gross too!

Ms. Wendell: This is the Car of Wind.

Ms. Maas: Yeah! I think that’s when I knew Josh and I would be, like, together forever –

Ms. Amanda: [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: – like, we just, like, both could, like, fart in front of each other –

Ms. Wendell: Oh yeah.

Ms. Maas: – and, like –

Ms. Wendell: Fart stage is very important.

Ms. Maas: But do you know what happened recently? Okay, this is another thing I probably shouldn’t even, I will regret saying this when I’ve, when I –

Ms. Wendell: Please know that I, I edit these, and if you –

Ms. Maas: Okay, you can –

Ms. Wendell: – think later, oh God, I don’t want –

Ms. Maas: – you can do, you can decide.

Ms. Wendell: – just be like –

Ms. Maas: You can decide whether –

Ms. Wendell: No, but –

Ms. Maas: – you want to cut this, but I literally, Josh and I are watching TV the other, the other night, and I just, like, let this massive fart rip, and Josh didn’t even blink an eye, and he just, he said, without even looking at me, God bless you.

Ms. Wendell: [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: And, like, I was just like, what. I was like, I didn’t sneeze, I farted! Like, it was that loud of a fart that he thought I sneezed, and he said Gesundheit!

[Laughter]

Ms. Maas: And he looked over at me, and he, like, realized that, like, that I really hadn’t sneezed. It was that loud of a fart!

Ms. Wendell: [Laughs] I’m crying!

Ms. Maas: We just, I mean, we laughed until, like, we cried, but I will forever remember him –

Ms. Amanda: God bless you! [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: – yeah, God bless you! Yeah.

Ms. Wendell: Please, please tell Josh –

Ms. Maas: [Laughs]

Ms. Wendell: Please tell Josh that when my teenagers let one rip, I will now be saying gesundheit.

[Laughter]

Ms. Wendell: I’m crying. Oh my God.

Okay. Books.

Ms. Maas: [Laughs] Books!

Ms. Wendell: I want to talk to you about books and periods and, and gas, obviously.

Ms. Maas: Yes.

Ms. Wendell: But the last time we talked, we talked about paranormal romance –

Ms. Maas: Mm.

Ms. Wendell: – which clearly had some major influence on this book –

Ms. Maas: Mm-hmm.

Ms. Wendell: – this, this particular book, and I have, I have questions: one, are there paranormal romance series that you love to reread, and two, in the, the magical food dream house, when the books would appear, they weren’t specified, but in your mind, were there specific books that were appearing?

Ms. Maas: Yeah, I mean, definitely everything by Nalini Singh, J. R. Ward –

Ms. Wendell: Yep! I just reread the Psy-Changeling series start to end, and I’m –

Ms. Maas: Oh wow.

Ms. Wendell: – devastated that the next one isn’t out for a couple of months, and then I emailed a friend of mine who’s a publicist, and she’s like, it’s so good!

Ms. Maas: Oh God.

Ms. Wendell: I’m like, you suck!

Ms. Maas: [Laughs] I just did, I was, like, the moderator for one of Nalini’s events for Archangel’s Sun, and, like –

Ms. Wendell: Sun!

Ms. Maas: – I, like, I was losing my shit while I spoke to her, because I just, she’s, first of all, the cutest, smartest, loveliest human being, and again, like, I’m a hot mess every single second of my life –

[Laughter]

Ms. Maas: – but then she just, like, talking to someone who writes such hot romances, such meaningful romances, and then does such intricate, amazing worldbuilding, I mean, she is my, like, ultimate goddess of, like, everything. She, I mean, I need to do a reread of her boo-, like all her books. But, like, she’s, like, someone I – 

Ms. Wendell: Very enjoyable!

Ms. Maas: Yeah. I mean, like, I’ve reread, like, you know, her series multiple times in the past, but not since there have been, like, so many books out. J. R. Ward’s books, like, I, like Black Dagger Brotherhood, especially the first three books in the Black Dagger Brotherhood series, like, I could reread all of those, like, endlessly.

Karen Marie Moning’s Fever series, like, I love that. Like Mac’s progression from, like, you know, Southern, like – [laughs] – Southern bartender girl to, like, badass warrior is one of my favorites.

I feel like I’m forgetting, like, so many right now. My mom brain is, like, killing me right now. But then I also read, like, a lot of, like, historical romance, like – did you guys watch, I’m, I’m assuming you watched Bridgerton. Like –

Ms. Wendell: Oh yeah. I watched it on the treadmill, and then I reached the point where, like, my joints hurt ‘cause I’m old –

[Laughter]

Ms. Wendell: – so I got off the treadmill and I just sat down on the floor with my phone to watch the rest of it in front of the treadmill, ‘cause I couldn’t walk anymore.

Ms. Maas: Was the treadmill still, like, going, like still rolling?

Ms. Wendell: No, I did manage to stop it, but I didn’t even bother to go anywhere. I just got off the treadmill and sat down in front of it to finish it, ‘cause I was like, well, I’m not going to stop watching, and I don’t feel like walking, and I’ve walked too much and my legs hurt, so here’s where I live now.

Ms. Maas: [Laughs]

Ms. Amanda: If you, if you want a recommendation, Sarah, I just read a really good historical romance that reminded me of, like, old, like, Lisa Kleypas, like, Wallflowers books.

Ms. Maas: Yeah. The Wallflowers! Mmm!

Ms. Amanda: Yeah. So it’s called The Heiress Gets a Duke by Harper St. George.

Ms. Maas: Hold on, I’m writing this down.

Ms. Amanda: It reminded me of It Happened One Autumn because the heroine –

Ms. Maas: Yes!

Ms. Amanda: – a brash American, like, railroad ironworks heiress? And the hero is like a destitute duke who has –

Ms. Maas: Oh my God.

Ms. Amanda: – no money, so, like, he needs financial capital. She needs social capital ‘cause she’s New Money. So good. And also, you know, to try to get money in his spare time, the hero is a bareknuckle boxer and doesn’t wear a shirt, so.

[Laughter]

Ms. Maas: On, wait, okay, The Heiress Gets a Duke, is that what –

Ms. Amanda: Yes.

Ms. Maas: Harper, what’s the, the author’s name?

Ms. Amanda: St. George.

Ms. Maas: Okay. I just wrote this down, and if I ever start reading again, like, books that aren’t Pride and Prejudice –

[Laughter]

Ms. Maas: – this will be the first I read!

Ms. Wendell: Well, you know –

Ms. Maas: Yeah, when I’m –

Ms. Amanda: The first time she –

Ms. Wendell: – you know if you ever need recommendations –

Ms. Maas: Yeah.

Ms. Wendell: – you can email us anytime.

Ms. Maas: Oh –

Ms. Amanda: But, like, the, the first time he meets, or she sees him, he’s, like, coming out into the, the prizefighting ring, and, like, the person next to her is like, oh, they call him the Hellion! And she’s like, that’s a stupid name.

[Laughter]

Ms. Amanda: Like, who calls him that?

Ms. Maas: He came up with it himself. [Laughs]

Ms. Amanda: You can’t do that! That defies the laws of nicknames!

Ms. Maas: All right, that’s awesome. I’m definitely going to have to add that.

Ms. Amanda: Yeah.

Ms. Maas: The Wallflower series? By the way, like, one of, that’s a series –

Ms. Amanda: Love it.

Ms. Maas: – I’ve reread –

Ms. Amanda: Love it.

Ms. Maas: – multiple times. I – has someone, like, adapted that? Like, is, is that in the works to be adapted? Because that would be –

Ms. Wendell: I have no, no idea.

Ms. Amanda: I would love that!

Ms. Maas: So, yeah, I feel like that’s so, like, on point right now with, like, you know, female friendships, like, being, like, you know, at the forefront of, like, you know – I just, I feel like Wallflowers would be perfect for, like, a Netflix series.

Ms. Wendell: Oh yeah.

Ms. Maas: Like, please. Like, if, if someone doesn’t, like, adapt that, like, I will literally, like, get a job in Hollywood just so I can do it myself!

[Laughter]

Ms. Wendell: So what are you working on right now that you can tell people about, other than book launch in a pandemic again? Amanda and I were actually talking about this. When we interviewed you last time, it was before everything shut down, and you were one of the first people who had to cancel events before the events themselves were canceled by the host organizations.

Ms. Maas: Yeah, we got – most people were pretty supportive, but we definitely got some shit for that.

Ms. Wendell: Yeah!

Ms. Maas: I didn’t see, I didn’t see it, but I was told –

Ms. Wendell: You made the right call.

Ms. Maas: – that some, some people were like, you were being, like, hysterical. Like, this is like, this pandemic isn’t a real thing.

Ms. Wendell: Surprise!

Ms. Maas: Surprise!

Ms. Wendell: You’re wrong.

Ms. Maas: Here we are!

Ms. Wendell: [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: But I, I was lucky enough to have, my, my brother-in-law’s an infectious disease doctor, and he was the one that, like, he saw the writing on the wall, and he told me, like, do not under any circumstances get onto a plane; do not leave the country. Like, do not –

Ms. Wendell: Nope.

Ms. Maas: – do anything. So we, we didn’t!

Ms. Wendell: You listened!

Ms. Maas: Yeah! So we listened to science –

Ms. Wendell: I don’t know you can see this, but it is snowing where you are, ‘cause I can see it through the window behind you, and it’s really, really beautiful. You have now gotten the snow that I just had.

Ms. Maas: [Laughs] Yeah, it’s, I’ve been watching it this whole time, and it’s gorgeous, so I am –

Ms. Wendell: So I apologize for interrupting –

Ms. Maas: Oh yeah, no!

Ms. Wendell: – new snow!

Ms. Maas: No, I am, I’m, like, thoroughly sick of snow at this point. Like –

Ms. Wendell: Yeah.

Ms. Maas: – it’s too, I, I love watching it, but then as soon as it’s done I’m like, get this –

Ms. Wendell: Ugh!

Ms. Maas: – the fuck out of here. Like, I don’t want to see this ever again.

Ms. Wendell: Yep.

Ms. Maas: But anyway, so what I’m working on right, I’m working on the next Crescent City book; I’m knee-deep in edits for that, and there is like two thousand percent more sex in that one.

Ms. Amanda: Yes!

Ms. Maas: I wanted, I wanted, like, Hunt and Bryce’s thing to be kind of like, not slow burn, ‘cause they do kind of hook up at the end of book one, but, like, there’s a lot of sex.

Annie: Woof, woof, woof! Woof, woof, woof!

Ms. Maas: Hold on!

Ms. Wendell: Sex patrol!

Ms. Maas: Annie! Come here.

Ms. Wendell: Sex patrol: she has things to say about that!

Ms. Amanda: [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: Yes. I think it’s –

Ms. Wendell: That’s all right; my dog was barking earlier; it’s fine.

Ms. Maas: [Laughs] Okay! I hear, like, a toddler screaming and Josh trying to calm him and the dog’s upset. Okay, I don’t know if you can hear a child screaming in the background, but that is my –

Ms. Wendell: That’s, that’s fine!

Ms. Maas: – that is my son! Yeah, so I’m working on Crescent City 2 right now, and yeah, lots of sex, lots of drama. Some of the side characters get a bit more plot.

[Laughter]

Ms. Maas: Like, that’s like the worst pi-, that’s the worst pitch I’ve ever done! Characters get plot! But yeah, so I, I, I should be getting my next round of edits like some point this week. And yeah, was that your whole question?

Ms. Wendell: And you know –

Ms. Maas: What, what am I working on right now?

Ms. Wendell: – you’re –

Ms. Maas: Yeah, that’s basically – and I’m working on, like, trying to find my abs again after having had a child.

[Laughter]

Ms. Maas: I know, I think, I think they’re gone! I think they dissolved; I think my organs ate them. Or maybe my baby ate my abs.

Ms. Wendell: Yeah, pretty much, that’s what happens.

Ms. Maas: Yeah.

Ms. Wendell: Mm-hmm. Yeah, that’s what happens.

Ms. Maas: [Laughs]

Ms. Wendell: Well, thank you so much for doing this interview, and thank you for considering us a safe space to share so many real things. I know it means a lot to, to me and to the people who are part of my community that you are so honest and, and caring about how you talk about the experiences you’ve had, but also your books got a lot of people through last year, so thank you for that too.

Ms. Maas: You’re going to make me cry from –

Ms. Amanda: [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: – from laughter to tears.

Ms. Wendell: [Laughs]

Ms. Maas: I mean, it’s still, like, I, I feel like I, like, I’m still getting used to talking about a lot of this stuff.

Ms. Wendell: It’s hard!

Ms. Maas: It is hard! It’s hard, and it’s scary, and I, you know, I, I’m definitely going to have that, like, moment when I, you know, we finish this call, and I’m going to be like, what the fuck did I say? Like, did I say too much? Like, you know, or, like, you know, did I say the wrong thing about, you know, whatever I went through? And I think I just, the more I talk about these things, like, the easier it gets for me to face them and understand them, and I just, I really hope that, you know –

Ms. Wendell: Yeah.

Ms. Maas: – people listening know that, like, their stories, you know, like, are worth telling too, and, like, you know, they can, you know, in seeing me, like, stumble my way through trying to explain what I’ve been through, like, know that, you know, it’s, it’s not easy for anyone, and by talking about it and by having people like you guys, like, amazing people like you guys who will, like, listen and share your own experiences, like, it helps. That’s why women got to stick together! Like, you know, we’ve got to have these, these conversations.

Ms. Amanda: Keep eyes on each other.

Ms. Maas: Yeah, keep eyes on each other, but I think it’s also, like, you know, I at least felt like I was, you know, only I had experienced things like this, and then it’s just, it’s always staggering and, like, heartwarming in a sad, depressing way, but, like, to find that I’m not alone in having dealt with a lot of this shit –

Ms. Wendell: Yeah.

Ms. Maas: – either. Like, I wish that I was the only one and that no one, none of my other, like, female friends or people I meet have ever been through this, but it’s, like, you know, there’s a lot of work to be done, not just on our end, but, like, men. Like, men, you’ve got to step it up! But I just, I find that talking about it, especially with other women, like, I’m just very grateful. I’m, I’m very grateful that you guys, like, provided me this opportunity to, again, like, stumble my way through talking about it and, yeah. I, I, like, I could talk to you guys for like another three hours I think.

Ms. Wendell: Oh, I know, right? I was like, damn it!

Ms. Maas: [Laughs] We should –

Ms. Wendell: – other things I have to do! Damn!

Ms. Maas: I know, I know. I literally am like, oh shit, like, I have to, like, write a few chapters right now, like, in between this and therapy and, like, you know, what can I, what can I get done? With my son screaming in the background and my dog barking.

Ms. Amanda: [Laughs]

Ms. Wendell: Yep.

Ms. Maas: And I also need to shower from this workout, because I can literally smell my BO right now. Like, I stopped –

Ms. Wendell: Oh, I’ve been there!

Ms. Maas: – I, I stopped using, like, deodorant with, like, aluminum in it, so it just, like – and, like, even though I really like this new deodorant I have, like, after a workout, like –

Ms. Wendell: Oh, it’s, that, that’s a strong thing.

Ms. Maas: I’ve just been quietly sitting here this whole time resisting the urge to sniff my pits, ‘cause, like, I can just, like, I, I still want to, it’s like a car wreck. I know it smells bad, I can smell it, but I want to see, I want to smell the –

Ms. Wendell: You have to find out how bad!

Ms. Maas: Yeah! [Laughs]

Ms. Wendell: Come on, there’s a range here! It’s like your tampon goblins: how big is this one?

Ms. Maas: Exactly!

Ms. Wendell: You got to know the range; it’s very important.

Ms. Maas: I have to know! I can’t look away!

Ms. Wendell: [Laughs] Well, thank you so, so, so much. It has been –

Ms. Maas: Yeah.

Ms. Wendell: – such a joy to talk to you, and if you ever want to shoot the shit, call on us any time.

Ms. Maas: Okay! I will! You’ll regret saying that, ‘cause I’ll never leave you alone, but yeah, thank you –

Ms. Amanda: Never!

Ms. Maas: – so much. [Laughs] This is awesome!

[music]

Ms. Wendell: This podcast was as long as some feature films and three times as satisfying, if you ask me. Thank you so much to Sarah J. Maas for hanging out with us. I hope you enjoyed that conversation as much as we did.

And if you do like listening to Amanda and me, you can listen to us Tuesday nights, 7:30 Eastern, for our podcast after party on Stereo. We get very silly. Sometimes we make weird sandwiches and eat them on the air and have people tell us what else weird sandwiches to eat. It’s ridiculous fun, and we would love for you to join us. If you’re feeling a little lonely or the Quarantimes are getting to you, this is perfect. You can go to stereo.com/smartbitches to get started. There’s a nifty avatar creation part too; do not miss that. We love hearing from you, because you can leave live messages for us to play during the conversation, and it’s so funny. Mostly because Amanda is hilarious. All you need to do is download the free Stereo app at stereo.com/smartbitches so you can connect with us when we are live. Tuesday nights, 7:30 p.m. Eastern on Stereo. That’s stereo.com/smartbitches, Tuesday nights, 7:30 p.m. Eastern time, only on Stereo.

A very, very, very effusive thank-you to our Patreon community. They make it possible to transcribe extremely long episodes like this one, and thank you to garlicknitter for all of the transcription. [You’re welcome! – gk]

A special hello to our newest Patreon member, Kera. Kera, hello and thank you.

If you would like to join the Patreon community – you find out when I’m doing interviews, suggest questions, and you help keep the show going – have a look at patreon.com/SmartBitches.

We will link to all the books we mentioned, and I would dearly love to know if this episode is one of your favorites that you relisten to in the future. I know for so many people, the first one we did with Sarah J. Maas was a favorite. I hope this one enters that level too.

But as usual, I’m going to end with a bad joke, because that’s what I do, and I’m terrible, and I would never leave this part out! Ready?

What is one thing that will absolutely always make everyone throw up?

What is one thing that will absolutely make everyone always throw up?

Hanging the dartboard on the ceiling.

[Laughs] Now I’m picturing a bunch of people like leaning way, way, way back and thunk!

Oh, I love terrible jokes. If you have one, you know what to do, right? You should email them to me at [email protected].

On behalf of everyone here, including my dog, who is wicked angry that I shut the door, we wish you a wonderful, wonderful weekend. Thank you again for hanging out with us, and we will see you back here next week.

Smart Podcast, Trashy Books is part of the Frolic Podcast Network. You can find outstanding podcasts to listen to at frolic.media/podcasts.

[fun music]