271. Dating as a Romance Author: A Conversation with Alisha Rai

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Sarah Wendell: Hello, and welcome to episode number 271 of Smart Podcast, Trashy Books. I’m Sarah Wendell from Smart Bitches, Trashy Books. With me today is Alisha Rai! In this episode, we sat down for cake and podcasting, because in a prior episode, episode number 229, we talked a lot about dating and romance, both the concept of romance and the genre romance. So many listeners have contacted me to let me know how much they enjoyed hearing her talking about the intricacies of modern dating from the point of view who’s, of someone who’s fluent in the romance genre that I was asked several times to do another interview, sooo here we are!

In this episode, we’re going to take a deeper look at dating as a romance author. We talk about seducing men with bad jokes. We take a look at why there are guys who feel the need to tell you that they’re kinky in, like, the third or fourth text. And we also cover the identification of romance heroes and villains inside real-life people, the upside and downside of being a writer in the dating world, and that there truly is no such thing as leagues. Also, this episode includes a really lovely story of a good date, and it’s seriously going to make your day.

I do want to mention, at about minute 36:45, minute 37, there is a brief mention of Trump and disgusting comments he made about assault, so if that is going to be super upsetting, you might want to hit the thirty-second skip button at about 36 minutes, 30 seconds in.

And if you would like to get in touch with us or you have a question or suggestion, you should email us! [email protected]. Record a voice memo and email it to me if you like, or leave us a message at 1-201-371-3272.

We have a sponsor for this episode. This episode is brought to you by The Secret of the Sheikh’s Betrothed by Felicitas Ivey, which is out on November 15th, 2017, from Dreamspinner Press. This is a contemporary male/male romance, part of the Dreamspun Desires line, where “The men are hot, the romances are rocking, and there’s always a Happily Ever After.” A billionaire and a Bedouin girl each have a shocking secret. Billionaire Fathi al-Murzim is a workaholic businessman too busy running the family’s company to even think about marriage. Too bad he’s also never told his grandfather that he’s gay, because grandfather has just announced a childhood betrothal to a Bedouin girl that Fathi has never heard about before. Ikraam din Abdel was raised as a woman by his avaricious older sister who didn’t want him being their father’s heir. He has never thought he’d be married and is surprised when his sister informs him of this betrothal. When Fathi and Ikraam meet, they’re drawn to each other in a manner neither one of them expected, and as the plans for their wedding progress, they both realize they need to tell each other the truth. But can they, with both cultural taboos and family pressures to deal with? You can find out more of this author’s work at dreamspinnerpress.com – and I will have a link, but at the end; this is what the author wrote – you can find more of this work, this author’s work at dreamspinnerpress.com, because her website is dreadful. [Laughs] She wrote that; I did not, but I will have links to this book and to Dreamspinner Press at smartbitchestrashybooks.com/podcast.

And we do not have a transcript sponsor for this episode, but there will be a transcript because I do a transcript for all of them, and I’m starting to commission transcripts for older episodes, thanks to the wonderful humans who have backed our Patreon campaign. Now, if you would like to sponsor the transcript or you’d like to find out more, please email me at [email protected]. I would be delighted to tell you all about it.

And speaking of our Patreon, if you would like to have a look at that, it is patreon.com/SmartBitches. The lovely people who have sponsored the show and made Patreon pledges, some of them as little as one dollar a month, make an enormous difference helping me commission transcripts for older episodes and making sure that the equipment and sound quality is, is as good as I can make it, although I will be honest with you: this intro is taking a lot of takes, because I am having a bad talking day. Like, apparently my mouth is just like, ha-ha! Logical sounds! No, not happening.

The music you are listening to is provided by Sassy Outwater, and I will have information at the end of this episode as to who this is. I will also end this episode, as I have been, with a terrible, terrible joke, so you can stay tuned for that.

I will also have links to everything we discuss, including an excellent Instagram cross-stitch, but for now, on with the podcast!

[music]

Sarah: So, dating.

Alisha Rai: Yes.

Sarah: Dating as a romance writer –

Alisha: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – is very weird.

Alisha: On multiple levels.

Sarah: Yeah.

Alisha: [Laughs] Yeah.

Sarah: And you talk about this sometimes because you – and the last time I did an interview with you, we talked about how you meet guys, and you’re like, oh, I know this character. I, I’ve met this person before.

Alisha: Yeah! No, it definitely, it works that way, ‘cause they sort of, you know – I started reading romance when I was, like, thirteen, right? I think we all, like, women, you know, who, who start usually start very young.

Sarah: Right.

Alisha: I think I read, like, a, I read, like, this statistic. They did this study, and it was like seventy percent of romance readers start reading romance before they’re seventeen?

Sarah: Yeah, we –

Alisha: And I was like, I believe that!

Sarah: Yep.

Alisha: I believe, I believe, I’m surprised it’s not, like, eight. [Laughs]

Sarah: Everyone has that story of either a relative gave them the romance –

Alisha: I know.

Sarah: – or they stole the romance –

Alisha: Yes, I –

Sarah: – but it’s almost always a, an inheritance –

Alisha: Yes.

Sarah: – from a family –

Alisha: Absolutely.

Sarah: – or friend of the family.

Alisha: And if it’s not, like, an inheritance, then it becomes kind of like a secret club later.

Sarah: Uh-huh.

Alisha: Like, oh, wait, you – [laughs]

Sarah: You were either given the brown paper bag –

Alisha: Yeah.

Sarah: – full of romances –

Alisha: Yeah.

Sarah: – or you just stole a couple and hid them.

Alisha: Or just stole it or and then hid them.

Sarah: And then never ever told anyone to this day.

Alisha: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: Yeah, everyone has that similar path.

Alisha: So, everyone has that, and then, like, when you start reading romance, I mean, I was, like – let me give you some background on, like, I mean, I was a weirdo, right? [Laughs] Like, when I was little. I was like a little – I was very shy; I was very quiet. I didn’t talk to many people, and, you know, other than, like, my very close friends, and I definitely never talked to boys. Like, I was terrified of boys for a very long time, and part of that is, like, cultural, because, you know, my, my family was basically like, okay, don’t date. You can’t date. You shouldn’t date. You shouldn’t date. And then, like, Indians are kind of funny like that. Like, you, they’ll be like, don’t date, don’t date, and then when you’re, like, twenty-seven, they’ll be like, why aren’t you married yet? [Laughs] It’s, it’s like, it’s like a very –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Alisha: – a very strange – and, and this is like, the number of, like, this sort of one of our unifying, I think, cultural, like, things, where it’s like, you know, like, your parents were like, never date; don’t look at boys. Boys are just going to lead you astray. Like, oh, you just have to get your education done and, and then, yeah, you get to a certain age and everyone’s like, so, what’s wrong? [Laughs] And it’s like, well –

Sarah: Why aren’t you married?

Alisha: – well, you socialized me – [laughs] – into being freaked out by men, so that’s a problem.

Sarah: Surprise!

Alisha: So I really, I mean, I really didn’t date at all until I was, like, in my twenties, I think, mid-twenties I started –

Sarah: Wow.

Alisha: – so it was like a very long time. I didn’t, I didn’t date in high school. I mean, I had crushes and everything. Like, I pined after men gloriously, like –

Sarah: There’s so much pining in romance, too.

Alisha: – to the drama, and there is! And, like, I had so much angst in me, and so, you know, for high school, college, yeah, all that. But, yeah, I didn’t, I didn’t date for a long time, so for a long time, my experience of love and romance came from books. Like, that was how I figured out the world. That was, like, my main source of, like, figuring out men, and –

Sarah: And that sort of became your frame.

Alisha: It became a frame, yeah! And I, I don’t know if this happens to everybody, like, if, if – [laughs] – the people who are, like, normally or, like – not normally, I should say, but, like, at the average in the culturalized –

Sarah: Is this a thing that happens?

Alisha: – expectation, is this a thing that happens? I don’t know, but it’s a thing that happened to me, so I’m going to say it’s normal. Normal to me. So, yeah, that, that was how I, it became the, the frame by which I sort of figured out men afterwards and, and dating and love and everything afterwards was, was through books that I started reading when I was thirteen.

Sarah: So how has that affected your dating now? Because now dating does not happen the way it does in a romance, unless, of course – now you may know about this. I don’t know how long ago you took wills and contracts, but –

Alisha: [Laughs]

Sarah: – you may have been willed an estate that you have to marry some guy to live on that estate.

Alisha: Correct, yes.

Sarah: That might have happened to you.

Alisha: Yes, that has happened to me a few times. [Laughs]

Sarah: Or a CEO or –

Alisha: Did you know that’s, like, my major pet peeve? [Laughs]

Sarah: Dude, I used to joke about, back in the old days of the podcast, I used to joke about how I was going to romance novel law school, and I was going to write all these wills. I was going to specialize in romance novel wills –

Alisha: The will made me do it.

Sarah: – and, and Jane was like, you better have real good liability insurance, and I was like, you’re not kidding!

Alisha: The will, the will can’t make you do that, right? [Laughs]

Sarah: Or a, a, a CEO’s business deal will fall through unless he can prove that he has a girlfriend or a wife –

Alisha: Correct.

Sarah: – because that is an important –

Alisha: Yes.

Sarah: – like, really, I have not met –

Alisha: I mean, I’m still getting –

Sarah: – anyone who gives a shit. [Laughs]

Alisha: – I’m still waiting to be some hot man’s fake girlfriend. [Laughs]

Sarah: Fake girlfriend, fake fiancée. You’re willed a property; you have to live with your –

Alisha: Correct.

Sarah: – you have to live with your enemy, or you have to run –

Alisha: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – a combination cupcake bakery, pet grooming salon –

Alisha: Or –

Sarah: – and, and yoga studio –

Alisha: Correct.

Sarah: – with your worst enemy –

Alisha: Yes.

Sarah: – from third grade –

Alisha: Yeah.

Sarah: – because of a will.

Alisha: Yeah! I mean, all of that has happened.

Sarah: Of course. And it’s, it’s –

Alisha: ‘Cause that’s how it should happen.

Sarah: – it’s very arduous.

Alisha: Right. And there’re always mergers and acquisitions too in romance, too. You know, romance law school is like – [laughs]

Sarah: Seriously, I’m not even joking. I am going to –

Alisha: – not like going to, like, real law school?

Sarah: [Laughs] I’m going to romance law school! I’m going to romance law school.

Alisha: Lots of mergers.

Sarah: You, you, lots of mergers and acquisi- –

Alisha: Lots of takeovers.

Sarah: But lots of mergers and acquisitions that rest entirely on the marital status of the CEO!

Alisha: I know!

Sarah: Like, what is this bullshit?

Alisha: Man, Zuckerberg, no wonder he got married.

Sarah: Right?

Alisha: [Laughs] He’s like, I had to.

Sarah: Yeah!

Alisha: Like, I absolutely had to! [Laughs]

Sarah: No one’s going to be allowing him to buy Instagram –

Alisha: No, no.

Sarah: – unless he’s married!

Alisha: Aww. Let’s not feel bad for Zuckerberg. [Laughs]

Sarah: No, I, I don’t, actually. I, I would like to kick him in a sensitive place. But that’s okay.

Alisha: Yeah. But no, no, it did, like, it, it’s funny. You asked how it affected my dating life now, and honestly, I don’t, I can’t, like, pinpoint, you know, like, it’s one of those things where it’s like, well, now it’s part of me. So I don’t know how I would be if it wasn’t a part of me?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alisha: Does that make sense? Like –

Sarah: Totally!

Alisha: I’m like, well, this is me now, so I, if you took this element away, if you’d never put a romance in my hands, if I had –

Sarah: You, how would you know what that would look like?

Alisha: How, how would I know what it would look like –

Sarah: Yeah.

Alisha: – if I’d not been scared to talk to boys till I was twenty-five? [Laughs]

Sarah: Right.

Alisha: What would that, like, what would my life look like? I don’t know! So.

Sarah: And if you hadn’t been reading courtship construction after courtship construction –

Alisha: Right.

Sarah: – after courtship –

Alisha: Yeah.

Sarah: – in books –

Alisha: Yeah.

Sarah: What, what strikes me is that when you talk about dating or you talk about the conversations you have with guys in dating apps –

Alisha: Mm-hmm?

Sarah: – you operate almost on two levels. There’s the, I’m an individual looking to meet somebody, and then there’s the writer level, like, oh, I know you.

Alisha: Yeah.

Sarah: I know this guy.

Alisha: Yeah! Yeah. I mean, there is, and I, I’ll, like, I’ll, I will immediately, you know, I was talking to somebody the other day, chatting with them on an app, and, and this is a thing guys do now, and I, I think it’s hilarious. Like –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Alisha: – it is my, it is my absolute favorite thing. So, you know, you’ll be on Bumble or whatever and you’ll be talking to a guy –

Sarah: Right, there’s Bumble and Tinder and –

Alisha: So, yes, okay, so let me, let me go through the apps –

Sarah: Yeah.

Alisha: – really quickly, just to keep them straight for anyone who’s not familiar. Apps –

Sarah: ‘Cause I’m old and married –

Alisha: Yes. Which is –

Sarah: – and I am a romance novel. I met my husband in high school –

Alisha: I know; that’s so cute.

Sarah: – which is super nauseating.

Alisha: No, it’s adorable; you guys are adorable.

Sarah: It’s super gross.

Alisha: It’s so cute. Oh, my God, I can’t stand it.

[Laughter]

Alisha: So cute. No, so it is, so there’s Bumble, which is like kind of – all right, so let’s start with the bottom of the heap: there’s Tinder. [Laughs] Which is like the, which is like –

Sarah: I would like to hook up.

Alisha: – I would like to hook up. Generally, like, accepted, like, okay, you’re – and I know people who have had relationships off of Tinder. Like, they have, you know, courtships and everything, and, and it’s great, and they live happily ever after.

Sarah: But the presumption is –

Alisha: But the presumption is you’re there to hook up, so –

Sarah: Booty call.

Alisha: – booty call, right. Like, oh, I can find somebody in close proximity to me. [Laughs] I need them right now. And then there’s Bumble, which is like kind of a little bit more serious.

Sarah: Right.

Alisha: It’s, the way they’ve set it up is so girls have to message first. Or if it’s, if it’s, like, for, like, it allows, you know, LGBTQ, so if it’s two women, they message each other –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alisha: – or two men, they can message each other, but if –

Sarah: But the first contact belongs to the woman.

Alisha: The first contact belongs to the women, which is kind of nice. I mean, it does, like, it’s kind of annoying, ‘cause you have to come up with an opening line, and my favorite, my favorite, by the way, opening line is to do a dad joke now? Like, that’s my favorite now. So –

Sarah: Oh, my gosh, that’s how I end the podcast, so I’m going to need some dad jokes.

Alisha: Mm-hmm. So I’ll – okay, this is, my favorite recently is, I’ll be like, hey, do you want to hear a joke? It’s about paper. And the guy’ll be like, yeah, sure. And I’ll go, never mind, it’s tearable.

[Laughter]

Sarah: All right, so –

Alisha: It’s the best. [Laughs] So if the guy laughs I’m like, yes.

Sarah: Okay.

Alisha: [Laughs] That’s, that’s Bumble. Bumble is my, Bumble is my personal amusement at the moment.

Sarah: I have a, I have a joke for you. Why don’t chicken coops have four doors?

Alisha: What?

Sarah: Because then they would be a chicken sedan!

Alisha: [Laughs]

Sarah: And you already know, like, my absolutely first favorite, favorite dad joke.

Alisha: Wait, was it?

Sarah: What’s red and smells like blue paint?

Alisha: Mm, do I know this one? I don’t think I know this one.

Sarah: Red paint.

Alisha: [Laughs]

Sarah: We use to –

Alisha: I’m stealing all of these.

Sarah: Please! Please do!

Alisha: I’m seducing men with these. [Laughs]

Sarah: Please do! I mean, wasn’t, wasn’t Aziz Ansari’s line on Master of None, where he messages girls –

Alisha: Yeah, the Whole Foods line.

Sarah: – like, I’m going to Whole Foods?

Alisha: Do you know how many men message me with the Whole Foods line now?

Sarah: No!

Alisha: Yes. And I’m like, yeah, I saw Master of None too.

Sarah: Nooo!

Alisha: [Laughs] Yeah.

Sarah: So you lead first contact with a dad joke.

Alisha: So – yeah, so that’s Bumble.

Sarah: This is excellent strategy.

Alisha: I know, isn’t it?

Sarah: It communicates so much!

Alisha: I think so. It, like, you know, communicates you’re fun and flirty, whatever, and I actually really enjoy –

Sarah: You don’t take yourself super seriously.

Alisha: No, and, and if they respond, like, positively, then I’m like, oh, okay, they’re clever and fun too. Okay, cool.

Sarah: Right. It’s tearable.

Alisha: T-E-A-R-A-B-L-E [Laughs] Like, it’s a spelling joke!

Sarah: Please tell me you’re going to write a romance with a dating app in it.

Alisha: I am, I have some thoughts. [Laughs]

Sarah: You, you have some thoughts. Okay, good.

Alisha: Yes.

Sarah: And romance novel law school.

Alisha: Yes.

Sarah: Romance law.

Alisha: Yes.

Sarah: Right.

Alisha: So, there’s Bumble; then there’s Hinge, which is, like, it feeds off your Facebook friends.

Sarah: So, hinge like the door hinge.

Alisha: Right, right.

Sarah: Yes, okay.

Alisha: So, like, you can –

Sarah: Connect through Facebook connections –

Alisha: You know, yeah, you can, you know, you can do that.

Sarah: That makes sense, actually.

Alisha: Yeah!

Sarah: That’s pretty logical.

Alisha: Isn’t it? Yeah. So, like, you can, it, it mines, basically, through your Facebook, and it, like, figures out, you know, who you’re friends of friends with and, like –

Sarah: Right.

Alisha: – you know, so it opens your circle, but you all kind of maybe know each other somehow. And then there is Happn, which is the creepiest app of all time – [laughs] – which is creepy but also kind of cool. It, it sort of, it, like, has a geolocation thing on –

Sarah: Right.

Alisha: – so it shows you people you’ve crossed paths with. [Brief silence] Yeah, I know, you’re mind is blown, right? [Laughs]

Sarah: Whoooaaaa. I can see both the positive and the negative in that.

Alisha: Yeah, yeah. So, I was –

Sarah: Like, if you’re data, data-obsessed person with –

Alisha: So –

Sarah: – with some social boundary issues, this is –

Alisha: So there’s the, that’s the problem with it, where I was like, this is kind of odd, ‘cause, like, it, it will – and it gives you, like, a, I think, like, a half a mile radius or something, so you probably may not have, like, exactly crossed paths with them, but they were somewhere within your vicinity, and you both, like, brushed by each other. And it is, like, sometimes I, I, I used it, and I was just, I basically was like – ‘cause I am oblivious when I am walking down the road. Like, when I –

Sarah: Oh, are you kidding?

Alisha: – I am, like, I have, like, my eyes straight, like, bitch face on. Like, I’m, like, not ready to talk to anyone. [Laughs]

Sarah: I walk my dogs for, like, forty minutes a day, and I try to take a different route –

Alisha: Yeah.

Sarah: – just so that I don’t always –

Alisha: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – do the same route, because as a female you’re taught never do –

Alisha: Right, yes.

Sarah: – something predictable. I’m listening to podcasts, I’m – I have the volume down, I can hear cars, and I see –

Alisha: Oh, I figure everybody going around me –

Sarah: – I see buses, and I –

Alisha: Yeah, yeah.

Sarah: – wave at the mail person.

Alisha: I’m very aware of who’s around me. Yeah, but I could not tell you, like, what their faces – like, I am just, like –

Sarah: No.

Alisha: – focused and, like, not –

Sarah: Zoned out.

Alisha: But, but when I got it, I was like, I’m going to try this. I’m just curious to see – and I kept, I was, like, very alert. Like, I’d walk around and, like, kind of like look at peop-, guys’ faces –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alisha: – and I’d open my app, and, like, the guys would not – like, it, it would be guys I’d never seen, so I assumed that the radius is large enough –

Sarah: Or they’re crossing, that you are the same place, but six hours apart.

Alisha: No, no, it is at the same time.

Sarah: It’s at the same time!

Alisha: It’s at the same time, yeah. So I’m like, okay, so the radius is large enough that maybe, like, you can’t exactly pinpoint.

Sarah: Hmm, maybe this app’s full of shit.

Alisha: Yeah, maybe!

Sarah: Maybe this app is full of shit.

Alisha: I don’t know, though, like, ‘cause there’s definitely, like, okay, well, I shouldn’t say this, but there’s one guy – [laughs] – who’s, who I know is in my building, and we’ve crossed paths forty-eight times so far, so.

Sarah: Is he cute?

Alisha: He’s okay.

Sarah: He’s all right?

Alisha: He’s all right. He’s a’ight.

Sarah: He’s a’ight?

Alisha: [Laughs]

Sarah: You haven’t, like, gone to the next, next Happn?

Alisha: I, I, like, I think I tapped, like, a Like on him, but he hasn’t – like, and that’s the problem with it, right? Like, you have to –

Sarah: Hi, neighbor.

Alisha: – you have to, like, both tap, you know –

Sarah: Ohhh!

Alisha: – so that you can match and then talk. And they’re all kind of like that. Like, you have to both show interest, and then you can match and talk to each other. So, like, every single, every single one of the apps is like that.

Sarah: That was one of my favorite parts of the Master of None with dating apps. There’s that one woman just sitting on the toilet, and she’s like, nope, nope, nope, nope, yep! Nope, nope –

Alisha: [Laughs] My, my favorite part was when he was out, he was out to dinner with a girl, and he was like, are you using the app right now?

Sarah: Yes! She’s like, yeah! She’s like, I’ve got time to set up another date!

Alisha: I’m like, I could, I have the seen the – [laughs] – I feel like there’s been a couple dates where I’m like, we should just both pull out our phones right now, ‘cause this isn’t working, but, but yeah, so there’s a, so there’s a bunch of different options. Like, there’s – and then there’s, like, specific ones, too. Like if you’re culturally, you know, like, there’s, there’s an app for Indians that it’s like, you know, just South Asians on there. Occasionally I’ll see a white guy on there, and I’m like, this is creepy. [Laughs] But then it –

Sarah: What’s going on?!

Alisha: – it says on there, like, oh –

Sarah: What the hell?

Alisha: – really looking for, like, Desi women or something. I’m like, this is creepy. It is, like, a thing that ha-, like, it’s fetish-y, and that was –

Sarah: It’s –

Alisha: – the thing in Master of None where all the women were like, you know, guys were looking, like, who have a Filipino fetish or – [laughs] – who have, like, an Indian fetish! And there’s –

Sarah: And he met that one girl who was Indian –

Alisha: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – who was super busy at work had to keep taking phone calls, but they were so connecting?

Alisha: They were cute! I liked –

Sarah: Yeah.

Alisha: – I was sad that it, like, went sour on the second date, and that happens sometimes, though.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alisha: Like, you’ll have a really good first date –

Sarah: One good date, and the next time –

Alisha: – and the next time it’s not, and so. But, I mean, that’s –

Sarah: And, can I just say, that whole thing in Italy with that wonderful girl who he met, and he just took her to dinner?

Alisha: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: He could have gone back to that restaurant and been like, listen, you had her reservation –

Alisha: That’s what I thought!

Sarah: – please, please just tell me –

Alisha: There was a major hole in that story!

Sarah: Please just, could you just call her?!

Alisha: Give me her number – yeah.

Sarah: She, she had to have left something, and –

Alisha: Credit card receipt? [Laughs]

Sarah: Right!

Alisha: No, I was like, I was like, there’s a number of holes. Like, it’s a cute idea, like, the missed connection and everything.

Sarah: I know!

Alisha: There’s a number of holes in this story, though, like – [laughs]

Sarah: Our movie matinee –

Alisha: And there’s, like, it was in your phone. You didn’t have the cloud? Like – [laughs] – I’m like, you didn’t have something set up for backup? All right, whatever.

Sarah: I just finished watching Roman Holiday, which is our movie matinee movie this month –

Alisha: Oh!

Sarah: – and at the end they go their separate ways, and I’m like, but she’s not going to be a princess under the control of all these people forever, and she could theoretically meet him later. I mean, look –

Alisha: I like, I, I feel like fan, like, fanfic my own ending, so – [laughs]

Sarah: Dude, there is so much, so much Roman Holiday fanfic on the internet, I cannot even tell you.

Alisha: I’m sure that’s – yeah, yeah, yeah. I’m sure there is, yeah.

Sarah: So you have all these apps.

Alisha: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: Are there apps also for, like, the more in-depth dating apps, like if you do match.com or eHarmony or –

Alisha: Yeah. You know, the problem with –

Sarah: You’re on Jdate, right?

Alisha: Yeah, oh, yeah.

Sarah: Of course!

Alisha: I’m on Farmers Only too. [Laughs]

Sarah: Yes! City folks just don’t understand!

Alisha: Somebody, somebody said to me, like, oh, like, it would be so romantic to, like, be – this was, like, a girl, like, grew up in New York City. She’s like, oh, my God, it’s just so romantic to, like, meet a farmer and fall in love, and I’m like, maybe, like, a gentleman farmer. [Laughs] Like, I’m not, like – are you kidding me? I’d be like, have you been on a farm?

Sarah: They’re busy.

Alisha: They’re – you’re going to be waking up at, like, 4 a.m., like, to, like, help him milk cows.

Sarah: And there will be poop everywhere.

Alisha: It’s not glamorous, girl.

Sarah: Poop all over!

Alisha: [Laughs] Like –

Sarah: Everywhere, not in a cool way.

Alisha: Like, my, I, I don’t – you know, I’m sure, like, people who are farm-, but I’m like, you grew up in New York City, you know. Never going to happen. [Laughs]

Sarah: This is going to be a bit of a culture shock for you.

Alisha: Yes, it’s going to be severe.

Sarah: You’re going to start it all with this call.

Alisha: Don’t think it’s sexy. [Laughs] Like, it’s, I’m sure there’re wonderful parts of it, very wholesome, love the farmers, but maybe not the most glamorous life that you’re, like, envisioning.

Sarah: So romantic.

Alisha: So, but, you know –

Sarah: Getting up at four in the morning.

Alisha: Yeah, I know, exactly. [Laughs]

Sarah: Your job security –

Alisha: Share your life.

Sarah: – depends on animals and nature. Yeah, that won’t get stressful. Oh, dude!

Alisha: I, I – but there are, there are match, and there’s OkCupid, and –

Sarah: And they have apps too, right?

Alisha: They do have apps. So the problem with, I think, a lot of these, oh, the more in-depth apps –

Sarah: The questionnaire sites and, yeah.

Alisha: The questionnaire sites, and, you know, you have to, you can write a long profile. Like, on Bumble you can only, you only get, like, a, two hundred characters to have a profile. Like, there’s no long profile on it.

Sarah: No Bumbling.

Alisha: No, yeah.

Sarah: You’ve got to get on with it.

Alisha: Yeah, you’ve got on with it, and, ‘cause the most, most of it is, like, you get six pictures, and you get two hundred characters, and have fun. [Laughs] And then swipe on each other.

Sarah: That’s a, that’s, like –

Alisha: It’s, it’s not the best. I, I don’t love it.

Sarah: That’s a very superficial representation of yourself.

Alisha: It is a very superficial representation, and, but the problem is, so, with OkCupid and match, is that nobody’s on them anymore. Like, it is the world, and, and this is, like, in the last two or three years. I used to date off of OkCupid, like, as short as two years ago, and –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alisha: – and now, I’ll open it and it’s, like, just a lot of messages from, like, weirdoes. [Laughs] It’s like, you know, it’s not, it’s not anybody that, you know –

Sarah: I think I have one friend, who’s been married for a bunch of years, she met her husband in eHarmony –

Alisha: Mm-hmm?

Sarah: – and then my husband’s cousin’s first marriage was, I want to say, eHarmony or Jdate.

Alisha: Mm-hmm. I mean, I –

Sarah: But this was ten –

Alisha: Right!

Sarah: – years ago.

Alisha: My best friend got married off of match three years ago, she got married. She met him like four years ago –

Sarah: But –

Alisha: – did, like, one cycle of match, met him, they fell in love, they got married. I mean, it was, it wasn’t easy, but it was, you know, like –

Sarah: But the –

Alisha: – it was –

Sarah: – the people who are looking –

Alisha: Right.

Sarah: – are not there anymore.

Alisha: Right.

Sarah: They’ve moved on.

Alisha: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sarah: Are people looking more for hooking up, or are –

Alisha: You know what –

Sarah: – people using hooking up as a, hey, maybe if we’re physically compatible we’ll also be emotionally and personality compatible too.

Alisha: You know what, I think part of it is, I think part of it is we do have, like, a hook-up culture, and, and I’ve been saying we have a hook-up culture since, like, college, so what does, you know, I think our generation just kind of has a hook-up culture. But the, the bigger problem, I think, is that everybody is on their, like, they use their phones to do everything now –

Sarah: Right.

Alisha: – and match and OkCupid and eHarmony were really sites that were sort of made for computers. Like, they were made for, they were made for, like, sitting down and looking through and scrolling and taking your time and maybe –

Sarah: And being at work and hoping no one notices –

Alisha: Right, exactly.

Sarah: – that you’re updating your profile.

Alisha: But it’s, but it’s, but it was on a computer. You know, like, it was a desktop situation.

Sarah: Right, you’re not going to type all that on a phone keyboard.

Alisha: Right, and so, like, on OkCupid, I mean, they have an app, and you can go through it, but it’s, like, it’s hard to sit there and scroll through – like, I have the same problem. Like, I’ll go through it sometimes, and I’ll scroll through the profile, and I’m like, this is taking forever. Like, reading these profiles is taking forever –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alisha: – and it is, like, on your phone it feels like much longer than what it is –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alisha: – so I think that’s really, like, the issue. I mean, the technology is, is at a point –

Sarah: The technology encourages brevity.

Alisha: Right. So, and I don’t love it! Like, it’s not a great – I, I think it was somewhat better to have, like, the questionnaires and the, you know, long profiles and –

Sarah: Sort of like –

Alisha: – and you’d send each other emails. Like, it would be like, when you sent an OkCupid email it would be, like, a few paragraphs! Like, you –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alisha: – you know, you’d send a few paragraphs, and they’d send a few paragraphs back, and it’s easier, I think, to, with, with the apps it’s texting; you text back and forth. Like, it is, you know, it’s quick, it’s fast.

Sarah: Which is interesting, because that avoids the sort of on ramp and off ramp of communication. In a text, you just expect to get right to the point.

Alisha: Yeah, yeah.

Sarah: Which strips away a lot of the performative artifice of hello, how are you –

Alisha: Right.

Sarah: – it’s nice to meet you; I noticed on your profile – it’s like –

Alisha: Right?

Sarah: – hey! Dad joke.

Alisha: And you can – or dad joke, ‘cause it’s really hard to be like, oh, I noticed you like this. [Laughs] Like, a profile might even be empty! It may not even have anything in it, so we’re like, you know, it’s hard to have, like, a, a connection –

Sarah: The shadow on your boxer briefs –

Alisha: Yes!

Sarah: – was most intriguing.

Alisha: [Laughs] Exactly!

Sarah: I have questions.

Alisha: Or, like, oh –

Sarah: What does the rest of the tattoo say?

Alisha: – sometimes you can, sometimes, like, you can be like, like, one guy on his profile, like, said something, something, and then he was like, and I got two puppies, and so I, like, just texted him, and I was like, two puppies?! Like – [laughs] – you know, and that was the –

Sarah: Pictures!

Alisha: – and we started a conversation that way, but it was like, it’s very hard.

Sarah: It’s a lot of poop, dude.

Alisha: Yeah, exactly. That’s what he said too.

Sarah: It’s a whole lot of poop.

Alisha: Yeah. [Laughs] But he was like –

Sarah: Poop everywhere.

Alisha: – you know, it’s, it’s just hard to, to come up with some way, so you start with dad jokes, or you start with, like, the Whole Foods line, or you start with something where it requires, like, you can copy-paste it to a bunch of people – [laughs] – and you don’t have to get very personal right off the bat.

Sarah: Yep.

Alisha: And, you know, you text for maybe, like, like, I don’t text for long, ‘cause it’s just a waste of time if they turn out to be terrible. You know, like –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alisha: – or if they never want to meet. Lot of guys just want to text and never meet. It’s very weird. And so, you know, I’ll text, I’ll, I’ll get kind of a read on them, maybe I’ll do some light stalking – [laughs] – just to make sure that they’re real. And then, you don’t have a last name on there or anything, some of them don’t. Some of them do; some of them are dumb. Don’t put your last name on a dating app, please. Women, never put your last name on a dating app, and sometimes I like, if you have a unique first name, maybe don’t even put that on a dating app. [Laughs] I, and it’s true, I am, like, I am, like, the best stalker in the world, so I can find information off of, like, literally any bread crumb, but I’m sure there’re, like, male counterparts to me, so you should be more care- –

Sarah: I have a friend –

Alisha: I won’t, I won’t hurt anyone with my stalking, but you don’t –

Sarah: I have a friend who is a – what’s the term for this, the type of attorney where you – personal injury.

Alisha: Mm.

Sarah: She does personal injury, Social Security, representing people to the Social – like, defending them against the Social Security Administration not being what they’re supposed to be –

Alisha: Mm.

Sarah: – insurance fraud.

Alisha: Yeah?

Sarah: She’s like, I can find any piece of information on anyone, and she’s now started talking to high schools and being like, listen, this is what I do for my job, and this is how much information I can find out about you within five minutes. You need to think about what you’re putting on the internet.

Alisha: People don’t even understand, like, the photos that they put up can be reverse-image searched? I mean, there are a million – like, you, there are identifying information in your photos. Like, ladies, please. Like, be very careful with your photos.

Sarah: Turn off location services of your photo app, please!

Alisha: Yeah, yeah. Put, put everything off – like, the photos you use on your dating profile should not be photos you use anywhere else. Like, they should be unique to your dating profile, and you know, don’t, don’t, make sure that there’s no identifying information. There was, like, one guy who would, had, like, his name on his, his name badge on him, like –

Sarah: Dude –

Alisha: – on his jacket, and I was like – and when I met him, I was like, you –

Sarah: Here’s my credit card number.

Alisha: I basically, I basically said to him, I was like, you should never have that, like, when we met. He was very nice; I liked him a lot, but it didn’t, it didn’t really, like, go anywhere, but he was friendly and stuff, so I was like, listen, I’m going to give you some friendly technological advice: take that photo down! [Laughs]

Sarah: That off.

Alisha: Take your nametag off when you take a picture, ‘cause I knew literally everything about you in, like, two minutes.

Sarah: Isn’t that just emblematic of dudes going through the world? Like, they would –

Alisha: Aw, they’re so – and he was like, what –

Sarah: – never even think about it.

Alisha: One time this guy was like, gave me his home address –

Sarah: Dude.

Alisha: – so I could park on his street, and, like, we were going, it was in California –

Sarah: Dude.

Alisha: – we were going to, like, Venice Beach or something like that, and he, you know, he lived near there, and he was like, well, it’s going to be crazy at Venice, so just park on my street and we’ll, like, walk over. He, like, lived, you know, a few blocks away. Nice place.

Sarah: Nice!

Alisha: And I was – yeah, it was really nice – and I was like, oh, cool, that’s really nice. Still weird you gave me your address, but, like, really nice.

Sarah: Going through the world as a dude, I’m telling you.

Alisha: But, I, so I parked, and I’m like, okay, I’m, I’m outside, I’m in my car, and he goes, oh, like, I’m in apartment, like, whatever, and I’m like, what?!

Sarah: Dude! Dude!

Alisha: It’s like, kind of like, what –

Sarah: Dude, for real?!

Alisha: Yeah! And so I kind of like walk up to the door –

Sarah: Like, no, that’s unsafe for you! What is he going to –

Alisha: It was! I, and I was like, it was, like, an outside door. Like, it wasn’t, like –

Sarah: Okay.

Alisha: – in an apart-, like, you know, how there’s, like –

Sarah: So he lives in a motel.

Alisha: Basically!

Sarah: Okay.

Alisha: It looked like a, it’s, like, very California.

Sarah: Right.

Alisha: It’s like a bungalow.

Sarah: Right.

Alisha: And so I, like, kind of walk up, and I’m, like, keeping my distance, and I, like, you know, reach out my arm really far to, like, ring the doorbell, and I’m –

Sarah: He’s going to open the door and going to, like, snatch me, and –

Alisha: – and the guy, the guy has his door open.

Sarah: No!

Alisha:  He’s just, like, putting his shoes on. He’s like, hey, what’s up? He’s like, nice to meet you! And I’m like –

Sarah: Ohhh –

Alisha: – hey!

Sarah: – dude, you’re so –

Alisha: Like, he had his door wide open! And I was like, I could see literally –

Sarah: Man, I’m telling you.

Alisha: – like, everything in your apartment. I can see, I can see your huge TV; I can see your, like, computers; I can see – [laughs] – like, and I was like, and he kind of hugged me. Like, he came out and he hugged, and I, like, would not go over the threshold of his door. I was, like, standing outside, like, a foot away.

Sarah: Vampire.

Alisha: Yeah, I’m like, hmm.

Sarah: Vampire.

Alisha: So I made him, like, come out, and he, like, gave me a hug, and I was like, listen – [laughs] – this is –

Sarah: This is weird.

Alisha: – this is – and I was like, well, let’s go – [laughs] – and I, like, started walking away, and he’s like, Wait. I’m like, I’m just, like, you just –

Sarah: A little weirded out.

Alisha: – gave your apartment out really easily. He’s like, oh; he’s like, oh, well, you know, I, I did, like, I did look out my window and see that you were you. And I’m like –

Sarah: But you don’t know me!

Alisha: – I’m like, you don’t know me, and –

Sarah: I could be –

Alisha: I’m like –

Sarah: I could be in electronics, by which I mean I steal them!

Alisha: Right! Or, or I could have – and I was like, I could have, like, eight burly guys in the car with me, and you can’t see ‘em ‘cause they’re ducked down. Like, in my head I’m, like, spiraling through all the ways I could murder this guy.

Sarah: Someone’s a writer!

Alisha: I know! [Laughs]

Sarah: But, see, this is the thing that, women think about this shit.

Alisha: Yeah! I’m like, I’m one step – and, like, women generally think about this shit, and then when you’re a writer, you, like, take it one step further, so I was, like –

Sarah: Oh, yeah!

Alisha: – I was, like, giving him scenarios as we walked over. I’m like, listen, I could have had a guy standing right behind the door. [Laughs]

Sarah: And now the guy is like, this girl is nuts!

Alisha: And he really was like, oh, I thought it’d be okay. Like – [laughs]

Sarah: Going through the world as a bro.

Alisha: And I’m like, listen –

Sarah: Telling you.

Alisha: – never do this ever again. Ever. [Laughs]

Sarah: It’s, it’s almost like a presumption of intimacy –

Alisha: Oh, it is!

Sarah: – and it’s like, I’m not ready to know this about you, and the fact that you’ve been, like, just handing out this information makes me wonder, like – every now and again on Twitter you’ll text, like, pictures of the conversations you have with guys –

Alisha: Oh, right. Sorry, this is where –

Sarah: – ‘cause they’re all starting to kinky, right?

Alisha: [Laughs] So – they’re all starting to get what?

Sarah: Kinky.

Alisha: So, this is the, the thing that I love. This is happening more and more. You know, I’ll be talking to a guy, two or three messages, and out of, literally out of nowhere he’ll go, some variation of you should know, just to warn you, I’m a little kinky. [Laughs]

Sarah: Buddy, everybody’s a little kinky. Come on, now.

Alisha: Or, or, and it will literally be, he’ll be talking about, like, work. [Laughs] Like, it won’t even be, like – I’m like, oh. And he’s like, or, like, the one guy that did this recently, you know, he was, he basically said, like, oh, well, what are you looking to get out of Bumble? And I fucking hate that question. [Laughs] Like, I hate that question so much!

Sarah: What are we looking to get out of Bumble?

Alisha: I’m like, is this an interview? [Laughs]

Sarah: Not that question is what I’m –

Alisha: Where do you see yourself? And I was like, fuck this. But anyway, so I was like, all right, fine. I was like, well, I’m not looking for anything necessarily, like – like, I’m not looking for the love of my life or whatever. I’m just really open, and that’s, like, my usual, like, non-answer, right? But I’m like, but I’m specifically saying, ‘cause at this point in my life – I mean, if you are, more power to you, but at this point in my life I’m just not looking for, like, sex, ‘cause I can get that. [Laughs] Like, it’s easy to get.

Sarah: Dick is far too plentiful?

Alisha: Dick is far too plentiful! I’m going to make that, that should be my catchphrase. [Laughs]

Sarah: Dick is far too plentiful.

Alisha: Somebody, somebody cross-stitched that for me, and I was very happy.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Alisha: It was great. It’s on my Instagram; you should go look at it. [Laughs]

Sarah: I’ve seen it. It’s fucking rad –

Alisha: Yeah, isn’t it –

Sarah: – and the dicks are in all different colors!

Alisha: I know! It is very inclusive about the dick colors! So, yeah, you know, we were just talking, and I said, I’m not really looking for anything casual, which is, like, code for I’m not looking for just dick. [Laughs] I’m just not looking for anything too casual, and he was like, oh, that’s good; neither am I. I’m not either. And I was like, okay, cool. That’s awesome. And then his next words are –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alisha: – just so you know, though, just to warn you, I am a little kinky. And it was like, just told you, like – [laughs] – and he’s like, you can’t say, I’m not looking for anything casual and then pull out your kink level. And there’s a number of things wrong with this. Let’s unpack it. [Laughs]

Sarah: You know what’s weird about that? It’s almost as stupid and ill-fitting as all of the romance heroes who can look at a girl and be like –

Alisha: I know she’s a submissive. Yeah.

Sarah: I know she’s inherently submissive.

Alisha: [Laughs] She gives off a submissive vibe, right.

Sarah: I know that she’s inherently –

Alisha: And here’s the thing. Like, there’s nothing wrong –

Sarah: I’m going to teach her the way – like, oh, come on!

Alisha: There is nothing wrong with kink, and there’s nothing wrong with being kinky, and there’s nothing wrong –

Sarah: Do your thing.

Alisha: Do your thing, and I understand, like, for some people maybe that’s, like, you know, they want to make it very clear up front or whatever –

Sarah: Right.

Alisha: – but generally, like, if you’re kind of kinky, like, that is something that should evolve over the course of your relationship. Like, that is not something you tell somebody five minutes in, unless you’re, like –

Sarah: Unless it’s relevant to the conversation.

Alisha: Unless it’s relevant to the conversation! Unless you’re like, yeah, I’m just looking to, like –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alisha: – have some sex, have some fun – by the way, I’m kinky. Like, fine, fine, fine. But it was like, okay –

Sarah: Kinky how? Like, kinky, you like to tie people up kinky? You like to be tied up –

Alisha: And, like, that’s okay. This is the thing –

Sarah: – kinky? You like, you like llama costumes.

Alisha: – there are –

Sarah: What’s the, what –

Alisha: – there are various levels of kinky, and – [laughs] – there’re various kinks.

Sarah: You don’t say! Another thing in romance that we’ve learned a lot about.

Alisha: Exactly! And so this, but this is the thing where I’m like, this is such a, like, romance – like, I’m not, because I come from a world where three-fourths of the men are kinky or dominant that I’m like –

Sarah: And a billionaire.

Alisha: And a billionaire!

Sarah: Are you a billionaire too?

Alisha: And no, he was not. He was, like, an engineer, so – [laughs]

Sarah: He’s not creepy; he’s just brainy.

Alisha: Yeah. But I’m like –

Sarah: Brainy kink.

Alisha: – listen, like, I come from a world where it’s not –

Sarah: That big of a deal.

Alisha: It’s not that big of a deal, and also, like, I know how it should – like, I know the healthy ways –

Sarah: To introduce this topic, yeah.

Alisha: – to introduce this and to have this come out and – but this is something that I, I face constantly, like, it seems, and at least once a week some guy’ll be like – once a week when I’m actively using the apps, like, he’ll be like, oh, I’m dominant, and it’ll really be like, do you think you’re special? [Laughs] Like, first of all –

Sarah: (a) Do you think you’re special?

Alisha: First of all, you’re not special. [Laughs] And second –

Sarah: And (2), are you sure? Because if you were actually dominant, you wouldn’t need to, to demand that ground for yourself.

Alisha: Exactly!

Sarah: You would just be like, I am the authority of myself.

Alisha: Right!

Sarah: You would, you –

Alisha: Right! And dominance is one of those things where, dominance is like, and kink, I think, also, are, are, are like calling yourself an alpha hero, right.

Sarah: Right.

Alisha: Because what is the definition of an alpha hero? And you could get five romance readers in here and not one of them would agree on what the definition is.

Sarah: Oh, yeah, everyone has a definition.

Alisha: Everyone has a different def- – everyone will have, like, a different archetype; everyone will have, like, a different favorite alpha character; and some people’ll be like, oh, this guy’s alpha, and someone else’ll be like, no, he’s beta. Someone else’ll be like, oh, he’s omega. You know, like, there is no, there is no –

Sarah: He’s gamma.

Alisha: Right! And so dominant and kink, in romance alone has very –

Sarah: Epsilon!

Alisha: [Laughs] Right, yes. Various Greek letters! But, like, you know, it has so many different levels in romance –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alisha: – in books alone –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alisha: – in erotica alone, that you cannot, as a man, I think, or as a woman just be like, I’m kinky; I’m dominant. Well, tell me what that means.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alisha: Like, if you want to really, like, put me on notice, I need an exact description of what –

Sarah: And if, and if you’re not providing it, then you don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about –

Alisha: Exactly! And I’m like –

Sarah: – and I know more than you.

Alisha: And a lot of guys, especially recently, I think, you know, because we live in this, like –

Sarah: Post Fifty Shades world? [Laughs]

Alisha: Post, post Trump world, I think too.

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah.

Alisha: Like, you know, like, we’re, like, pussy grabbing, and it’s, like, an acceptable thing – [laughs]

Sarah: Apparently, apparently –

Alisha: – to, for our president to talk about!

Sarah: – qualifies you to be president!

Alisha: Yes, yes. Exactly. So I think, I think, like, a lot of people –

Sarah: Ugh!

Alisha: – can’t differentiate between dominant and toxically masculine, and so –

Sarah: Oh, that is very, probably very true.

Alisha: – so I think that –

Sarah: It’s like there’s a toxic masculinity memo?

Alisha: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Sarah: It’s like a newsletter and they all get it.

Alisha: Yeah.

Sarah: Okay, now you have to tell all the women you’re kinky.

Alisha: Right!

Sarah: Okay, now you have to do this or you’re not qualified –

Alisha: So, like –

Sarah: – as manliness.

Alisha: – if we’re in the bedroom and suddenly he’s like, can we try this, or something? You know, like, that’s different, but for a guy to just be like –

Sarah: Yeah.

Alisha: – I’m dominant, I’m like, well –

Sarah: Actually, no.

Alisha: – are you dominant, or are you an asshole, or are you, like – [laughs] – do you, what do you like in the Dominant spectrum? Like, how dominant are you? Like, are you into pain? I mean, there’re just too many things, so, like –

Sarah: Do you like to be peed on? Is that –

Alisha: Yeah. Like, I mean –

Sarah: – is that what we’re talking about here?

Alisha: – there’re just too many options!

Sarah: More, poop? There’s more poop in this podcast now! [Laughs]

Alisha: I’m like, there’s just –

Sarah: I’m going to go home, and there’re going to be animals, like, guys, guys, guys –

Alisha: [Laughs]

Sarah: – come on.

Alisha: No, but that, that is the problem, and so that, to me, is just like a red flag, where I’m like, okay, and I’ll just unmatch. I’m like, I’m not even going to fuck around with this, because – and especially with this guy. Like, everything was going fine; we seemed to have, like a couple things in common. Like, we were –

Sarah: Just so you know –

Alisha: – texting – just so you know; just to warn you. I’m like, it’s not really – and that’s the thing: like, dominance shouldn’t be like a trigger – you know, like, if I’m into it too, I don’t need to be warned. [Laughs] Like, you know, like, it would be like, it would be like he’s saying, like, whether you’re into it or not, warning.

Sarah: I see, I see two things –

Alisha: [Laughs] I’m like, no.

Sarah: – wrong with this dude, among, like, ninety-five other things that are –

Alisha: Yeah, there are a lot of things wrong.

Sarah: Hypothetically, my reaction would be, oh, really!

Alisha: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: Because I feel like I’ve been challenged. You know? Like, all right, dumbass.

Alisha: [Laughs]

Sarah: It’s about to go down.

Alisha: Yes, yeah. [Laughs]

Sarah: And, like, you did not just bring –

Alisha: Like –

Sarah: -a weak penis to the sword party.

Alisha: [Laughs] Yeah.

Sarah: Because just let me go get my sword. The other thing is that he doesn’t know how to introduce the whole idea –

Alisha: Right.

Sarah: – and it’s, it’s an improper cue.

Alisha: And maybe –

Sarah: And it, and it, and it doesn’t respect the power dynamic that happens in a Dominant/submissive relationship –

Alisha: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – because until the submissive agrees, there is no real Dominant. He can’t do his, he or she can’t do their thing, and now I’m using gendered language. Let me just back myself up here.

Alisha: No, no, I, but, like –

Sarah: The person who’s in the Dominant position cannot assume that position without a submissive’s permission, right?

Alisha: Right, and the thing is, like – and I don’t, I don’t, you know, I’m not in the BDSM scene, so I can’t really, you know, speak too much to it, but it really – and maybe, like, the, the best read on this guy that I could do, and on any of these men, the most generous read is –

Sarah: Is that they read Fifty Shades and were like, oh! I don’t have a helicopter –

Alisha: Yes.

[Laughter]

Sarah: Or –

Alisha: Or they think that I’ve read Fifty Shades, and they don’t know –

Sarah: Yes!

Alisha: Or, or, and, and this is literally, like, the most generous, is that they are maybe, like, intrigued by BDSM or they’re, like, into the scene, and they just don’t know how to approach, you know, people about it, women about it –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alisha: – and, like, that is literally the most generous, but, but the problem is the, the ROI for me – [laughs]

Sarah: Your return on investment.

Alisha: You know –

Sarah: You’ve got a lot of work to do.

Alisha: Like, it is, the ROI for me is that, you know, that is the most generous read I can give them. I’m not really into the scene –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alisha: – and so I can’t really lead them out of whatever field they’re in, and, and the most generous read for me may not be the safest read for me. You know, like, if – and I say, I often say, like, dating right now is kind of like playing, like, oh, are you awkward or are you a serial killer? Like, that is, like, that is –

Sarah: Truly sad.

Alisha: – the game show is the worst game show in the world, and so, you know, the most generous, sometimes I, like, and I want to be generous, I always want to be generous, and I’ll always be like, aw, maybe he doesn’t know, or, like, whatever, but I’m like, for, for this case, like, I, I don’t know! Like, he could just be toxically masculine. Like, he may just be like –

Sarah: Yep. He just might be a toxic –

Alisha: – oh, I’m dominant, like, oh, like, pussy-grabbing, like, whatev-. You know, like, it may not be actual healthy BDSM, in which –

Sarah: Right.

Alisha: – in which case, where, like – and, you know, I’m, I’m, like I said, I’m not really even into the scene, so, like –

Sarah: Definitely not into that.

Alisha: – for me it’s like – [laughs] – definitely, like, unhealthy –

Sarah: Nope! Done!

Alisha: – or disrespectful, like, I’m not into that at all, so. You know, it has its time and its place, and it has its partners, and it has, like, its scene, and, and I think this one of those things, I think, for any, like, sexual stuff, you have to be able to read – like, if your partner’s not into it, or if, if you’re not into it, like, to say to somebody, like, warning: this is how I am, like –

Sarah: You must accept this about me.

Alisha: Right. It was very much like –

Sarah: You, you have to accommodate –

Alisha: Right, you have to accommodate, yeah.

Sarah: – my boner preference.

Alisha: And I’m like, but I don’t even know you!

Sarah: No.

Alisha: Like – [laughs] – I don’t even – like, we haven’t even had a drink yet!

Sarah: That’s a level of…. Yeah.

Alisha: Like, I, we haven’t met in person. Why –

Sarah: No.

Alisha: Yeah, and like –

Sarah: Nope, nope.

Alisha: And, like, this is one of those things where, like, there are sites for that, and there’s, like, Tinder, and there’s, like, you know, you can put that right in your profile, and nobody will, like – I mean, on Tinder one time, I matched with this guy who was, like, M/F/M – [laughs] – and I was like, oh, I wandered into, like, ménage Tinder. [Laughs] This is –

Sarah: Whoops!

Alisha: I even chatted with him. I was like, hello. [Laughs] I’m kidding you. ‘Cause he didn’t have pictures of him or the other guy’s face, but it was, like, two men, like, looking – and it was, he was like, well –

Sarah: So did you change your profile picture to one of your covers? Wait –

Alisha: I should have.

Sarah: – which is the one with the, with the two? Is it –

Alisha: It was Glutton.

Sarah: – Glutton for Pleasure.

Alisha: Yeah! [Laughs]

Sarah: Just put that as your profile.

Alisha: Well, that’s basically what their profile looked like. It was just, like, two headless torsos, and I was like, you are targeting me. I’m just curious now. This – [laughs] – so I, like, we matched, and so I messaged him, and I was like, I probably won’t meet you, but I’m just curious about all this that you’ve got going on. So I’m like, if nothing else, I’ll use this for research! And so, like, you know, I chatted with him a little bit.

Sarah: You have to pay for these services? ‘Cause I was going to say, this just became a big old deduction!

Alisha: [Laughs] No, no, I don’t. And so I was just, I was chatting with him, and he was very nice and friendly, and he was like – and he didn’t have pictures of him or the other guy’s head, and so I was like, do you have pictures of your heads? [Laughs] ‘Cause I was just curious, like, what you look –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Alisha: And he was like, well, you know, ‘cause, like, we both our professional. He’s like, I’m, like, in my forties, and – and they’re both very fit, like, you know, and he’s like –

Sarah: Are they a couple?

Alisha: They’re not! They’re just, he was like, you know, and he, but he, he –

Sarah: They just like to bang the same ladies.

Alisha: Yeah, and so he was like, I’m in my forties, and I’m, like, you know, I have a professional job, and he’s, like, young and dumb and in his twenties, and I was like – [gasps] – you’re writing a book! You’re writing the book right now! Like – [laughs] – erotic romance Tinder is, like, open! Well, I never met him. I was like, this is a bit – like, he, he, they were a bit odd a couple of ways that I was like, this seems, like, fishy, so I –

Sarah: Isn’t it interesting that when you’re attuned to reading text when text doesn’t have a whole lot of options for reading it, you, you almost learn very quickly how to figure out, okay, something’s not right here.

Alisha: Yeah! I do. Yeah.

Sarah: Like, even for email, for people, I’m like, okay, something is not right here.

Alisha: Oh, yeah. I mean, I –

Sarah: Something’s weird.

Alisha: And I’ve gotten to the point where I, like, I definitely go on less dates now. And by that I mean, like, if I, if I truly wanted to, I could probably – and I think any woman, really, like –

Sarah: Dick is far too plentiful?

Alisha: Dick is far too plentiful. You could easily go out with, like, three or four men a week if you really, honestly.

Sarah: Oh, dude!

Alisha: In a city like, like D.C. or New York, like, in a very congested city, yeah. No, in other cities, maybe not. But they wouldn’t be quality dick, and you want to hold out for the quality dick, so – [laughs] – at this, at this point in my life, I want to hold out for quality dick.

Sarah: This has been Dating with Alisha Rai –

Alisha: Yes!

Sarah: – Hold Out for Quality Dick.

Alisha: Hold out, hold out for quality dick. Like –

Sarah: Make sure that the dick is attached to a quality person!

Alisha: Yeah! Like, I mean, and that is, like, dick is, dick is low in value and very plentiful – [laughs] – and so you, you want to really – I mean, I, at least, maybe you don’t, but I, at least, I really want to hold out right now for the quality dick, and I feel like –

Sarah: It’s like men running around –

Alisha: Yeah.

Sarah: – thinking that their dick is like a rare gem and we’re all like, yeah, that’s what you think.

Alisha: I’m not saying, like, abstain from sex. [Laughs] I’m just saying, like, for, for, like, your hopes and dreams maybe, don’t –

Sarah: Yeah.

Alisha: – pin it on low-quality dick, ‘cause low-quality dick will leave you high and dry at some point, so, in a number of ways, like, yeah! [Laughs]

Sarah: Yeah. I mean, unless you just want random dick, then, hey!

Alisha: Yeah, which, you’ll have a party!

Sarah: You will have no problem –

Alisha: The apps are really good for that!

Sarah: – securing –

Alisha: [Laughs] And so –

Sarah: – random dick.

Alisha: And so, but, but, you know, like, if, if I, if I truly wanted to, I could do that, and, you know, I think if you, if you just get very good at, like, reading people, and, and when you do read – like, I mean, I think that’s part of the value of reading romance is, like, you can, in a few sentences, kind of judge a person, like – maybe not judge them entirely, but you can get kind of a read on, like, are we going to have a good time at least over drinks? Like, am I going to enjoy at least an hour with you?

Sarah: Yep.

Alisha: If not, mm, why?

Sarah: Yeah.

Alisha: Why waste my – reclaiming my time! [Laughs] I am not wasting my hour on this.

Sarah: Nope.

Alisha: I have – I mean, I don’t, like, have super-productive – I could probably watch an episode of The Walking Dead or something – [laughs] – in that time. I could –

Sarah: But if, if your choice is –

Alisha: But, but if my choice is –

Sarah: – watch a TV show you’ve already seen or go out with this person who’s sort of like, eh –

Alisha: Yeah!

Sarah: – dude, go for the TV you’ve already seen!

Alisha: I’m like, please, I mean, it doesn’t, it’s not like, it takes me a while to put my makeup on and my hair, and I’m like – [laughs] – it’s not, it’s not an easy process!

Sarah: Yep.

Alisha: So I’m like, if I’m putting all that time investment into, you know, going out and, and being cute or whatever, like, it better be for someone who I’m at least going to enjoy the hour with, so –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alisha: – I think that’s important, and I will, like, immediately, like, you know, even if he’s, like, oh, let’s get a drink, and if, if I have, like, the slightest inkling now of, like, eh, I just like, mm –

Sarah: No, I don’t think so.

Alisha: – nah, I don’t think so. ‘Cause I, I really – and, and, and I’m not saying, like, close yourself off, ‘cause I used to do that too, like, when I first started, where I was like, oh, oh, he’s got, like, a weird, like, like, tic, or he, like, doesn’t use, like, great grammar, and, like, now I’m like, whatever. You can use whatever grammar you want; you can use whatever spelling you want; you can use, like, anything, and especially, I think, you know, now I’m sort of at the point where I’m like, well, there’re non-English speakers and, you know, not everyone’s great at texting or whatever, but, but if there’s even, like, a slight red flag, if there’s a slight bit of things where I have to –

Sarah: Not worth your time.

Alisha: – where I have to say, like, is this awkwardness or is this a serial killer, I’m like, nope. Not, not worth my time.

Sarah: Because it’s not a big deal for you to respond to a text message from a dude on your couch where you don’t have to put on shoes –

Alisha: Right.

Sarah: – and the TV’s on or you can be doing other things –

Alisha: Yeah.

Sarah: – and be like, hey, dude! You know –

Alisha: Yeah!

Sarah: Di-di-di-di-duh. You can do that with a low amount of energy. That’s not taking a lot of energy and –

Alisha: Low investment, yeah.

Sarah: Low investment of energy and decision making.

Alisha: Yeah.

Sarah: As I’ve learned from researching and, and building my, my course on organization, making decisions taxes your brain –

Alisha: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – and the more active decisions you have to make, the more tired you are when you’re done. If, if all you have to do is reply to a text and be funny –

Alisha: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – easy. Getting dressed, putting on your face and doing your hair –

Alisha: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – and, like, judging your, deciding what to wear and deciding what shoes and then deciding where to go and then deciding the parameters, okay, if it’s this by this time, then I’m going to leave.

Alisha: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: That’s a lot of brain energy!

Alisha: It’s a lot of brain energy, and, like, you do, you lose, like, an entire evening. I mean, and, and coming home and unwinding from that, like, it is –

Sarah: That’s a very –

Alisha: And that’s, and that’s, those are the dates that are like meh, right?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alisha: Like, there are dates where, that are actively stressful and, like, you know –

Sarah: Yeah.

Alisha: – those are even worse.

Sarah: You have to carry the conversation; you have to do all of the labor and –

Alisha: Carry the conversation or, like, they’re openly offensive or, like, you know, like, so it can be, like –

Sarah: Have you been on openly offensive dates?

Alisha: [Sighs] I have been on a number of ‘em.

Sarah: Oh, no!

Alisha: Maybe we should do an entire episode about my openly offensive dates. [Laughs]

Sarah: My worst dates?

Alisha: Let’s do that. [Laughs]

Sarah: Oh, my God.

Alisha: I feel like that’s a whole episode, and maybe four more. [Laughs]

Sarah: All right, so, listeners, if you would like to hear my worst date stories, email me, and you tell me that’s what you want, and we will do it, but I don’t want to inflict this on you. I mean, I just hear the sound of my inbox –

Alisha: I’ll tell some good date stories too!

Sarah: My inbox is just shuddered! All right, so tell me a good, tell me a good date story.

Alisha: A good date story.

Sarah: Have you been on a good date lately? Any, like, interesting dudes you’re chatting with now?

Alisha: Yeah! Actually –

Sarah: That’s the thing about romance readers: we root for each others’ romance.

Alisha: I know, we do, we do. And I hate to, like, I, I hate to – well, here’s one that’s kind of, kind of up in the air still, ‘cause he lives a little further away, so –

Sarah: What, like Virginia?

Alisha: [Laughs]

Sarah: West Virginia!

Alisha: Like, south! [Laughs]

Sarah: Ohhh-kay.

Alisha: Like that, so.

Sarah: Yeah.

Alisha: But we’ve been, I mean, we went out in, in July? We had a date. He, his brother lives in D.C., and so he was here for that, and so I was like, all right. So, no, this guy was pretty, pretty great, and, and, like, it happened very randomly. He just happened to be in town, and so we matched, and so –

Sarah: Right.

Alisha: – he was like, hey, I’m just visiting my brother. Like, in [mumble], and – [laughs] – you know, and so, and he’s like, but if you want to –

Sarah: My address is 123 –

Alisha: [Laughs] Yeah.

Sarah: – South Street, yeah.

Alisha: Yes. Yes. Down south of the Mason-Dixon line.

Sarah: Right.

Alisha: But he was like, you know, oh, like, if you want to get together, let’s just, like, if you want to get a drink, I’m in town, like –

Sarah: It’s totally low risk because –

Alisha: Yes, totally low risk ‘cause I’m like, if I don’t – you’re going to leave on Monday. [Laughs] And, and like, granted, you visit here fairly often ‘cause, you know, like, your sibling lives here, but, like, that’s not, that’s nothing.

Sarah: Right.

Alisha: Like, I have run into exes. Like, D.C. is very small, so, like –

Sarah: It is a very small –

Alisha: I run into exes quite a bit. It’s very, or, like, guys I’ve just dated once or twice, but is not one. But it’s –

Sarah: Ew.

Alisha: – yeah, it’s terrible. But this guy is like, okay, really low risk, and I wasn’t doing anything that night, and I’m like, yeah, sure, let’s, like, grab a drink or whatever.

Sarah: Sure, yeah!

Alisha: And I met him, and he was super cute and, and adorable, and so, and this is, it was super cute. He, you know, I, I’m always very cautious about, I, I don’t, I put it in my profile, like, oh, I’m an author and, you know, an attorney and whatever, like, traveler, or something like that, and, but I’m very, like, I don’t say that I’m a romance author on my profile.

Sarah: Right, ‘cause that comes with a whole bunch of crap that’s just –

Alisha: It comes with too much baggage with people I don’t know –

Sarah: Yeah.

Alisha: – and I, I don’t say it when we’re texting. I’ll, like, I, I go on the first date, I judge them, like, you know, figure out if they’re going to be assholes or not, and then I tell ‘em. And so this guy, like, ten minutes in, I’m like, this guy’s adorable, and so I told him, and he was like, so, like, what do you do? And so, you know, I told him a little bit, and I was like, I’m also an author, and he’s like, oh! He’s like, that’s cool. Like, are you, are you writing something right now? And I’m like, no, I’m actually, like, a published author, and he, like, he was like, [gasps, whispers] that’s so cool!

Sarah: Oh, my God!

Alisha: And I was like, that’s, that’s, and I was like, that was an adorable reaction.

Sarah: That’s the best response.

Alisha: And so –

Sarah: Isn’t it funny –

Alisha: – it was, it was a real –

Sarah: – when you meet someone who’s not in publishing, and they’re like, oh, my gosh!

Alisha: He, he was like, that’s awes-, and he’s in, like –

Sarah: You published a book?!

Alisha: Yeah, and he’s in, like, the health field, so, like, this is, like, foreign to him, and so he was like, oh, he’s like, that is so cool! And then I’m like, okay, so I’ve told him I’m an author, so that’s like the first hurdle, and then the second hurdle is I’m a romance author, and then I kind of like keep an eye on ‘em. And so, and he’s like, what kind of books do you write? And I was like, I write romance novels, and he goes – [gasps] – that’s the coolest thing ever! And I was like – [laughs]

Sarah: Oh, my God, I’m dying!

Alisha: It was really, really cute. I was like, this is just the most adorable reaction. And so I was like, yeah! I was like, it’s pretty cool! And he’s like, no! He’s like, you should be more excited! Why aren’t you more excited? And I’m like, well –

Sarah: ‘Cause everyone isn’t like you!

Alisha: – ‘cause it’s my life – [laughs] – and I was like, I was like, ‘cause it’s my life, so I don’t really think it’s, like, I’m like, you know, it’s just my job. Like, it’s my job, and it’s my passion and everything, but it’s like, it’s my life, so I, like, I don’t walk around like, and yes, I’m cool! Like, he was so excited, and so, you know, we were, we were talking some more, and, like, two or three hours went by, and, like, we were, like, still having fun, so we walked across the street, ‘cause he, like, wanted to get guacamole, and so we went to the Mexican place across the street, and we’re getting guacamole. Like, this is, like, three hours in, and out of nowhere he goes, I’m just so impressed by you. [Laughs] And I was like –

Sarah: [Squees]

Alisha: – I’m like, why are you impressed by me? Like, this is all cute, and he’s like, he’s like, you just, like – and he was also South Asian – he’s like, you’re just like out here like this, like, smart, like, you know, Indian woman just killing it! I’m like – [laughs] – I was like, oh, this is so cute!

Sarah: Did your heart, like, grow four sizes?

Alisha: It was! I was like, this is fucking adorable! [Laughs] Like, this is all so adorable! And so he was, he was very, very cute, and so, you know – and, like, it was, like midnight or one and, like, we went and got, like, halal food, ‘cause he really wanted, like, I guess there’s, like, halal brothers out in Dupont, so we, like, walked there, we got the food, and, like, eating, like, shawarma or whatever and, like, coming back to – and I was, and he was like, can I walk you back to your place? And I was like, yeah, sure. So, like, he walked, and I invited him in – [laughs] – like, smooched a little; it was great. But he was, but he, like, every, like, few, like, twenty minutes or so he’d be like – and he wasn’t drunk. He was, he’d just be like, [whispers] man, you’re so cool. [Laughs] And he was, and I was like, this is, like – and he was, like, literally, like, the cutest thing I – yeah, it was super cute. That’s exactly how I felt.

Sarah: I am curled up in a tiny ball, and I’m not a tiny person, but I’m curled up in a ball right now –

Alisha: [Laughs] She is, she is.

Sarah: – like, fanning my own face. Oh, my gosh.

Alisha: It was cute; it was really –

Sarah: I’m turning red for you! Oh, my gosh!

Alisha: Yeah, it was adorable! It was pretty adorable.

Sarah: My face is hot!

Alisha: And it was, and it was so, like, it was so great! He was, like, so, and it was like 4 a.m., 5 a.m., we’re still, like, talking on my couch, like, all night, and so –

Sarah: [Rapturous sigh]

Alisha: – and finally at, like, six he was like, oh, he’s like, I have to go; I have to catch my flight, and I was like, do you have to go? And he’s like, I don’t want to! [Laughs] And it was so cute! So he, you know, he, he left, unfortunately, but he, like, was super sweet, and he was like, can I, like, can I text you? Like, can I call you? And I was like, yeah, sure!

Sarah: You fricking better!

Alisha: And so, you know, we’ve been texting a little bit since, for the last couple months, and it’s not like I’m not dating anyone else, and I assume he’s still dating, like, other girls or whatever, ‘cause we only had one date, but, like –

Sarah: When was this?

Alisha: Just, like, two months ago!

Sarah: When’s he coming back?

Alisha: I don’t know! [Laughs] He’s supposed to come back this month.

Sarah: Are you guys still texting?

Alisha: Yeah, we are! Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sarah: Do you, you, like, talk every now and again?

Alisha: We do; like, a couple times a week he’ll, like, text me, and I’ll be like, hey, what’s up? He’s not a very good texter, which is, like, kind of a problem – [laughs] – but, but the thing is, like, I know what he’s like in real life now, so I’m like, I’m, I’m ready to be generous with the texting, and, and who knows, maybe he’ll meet someone else, or maybe I will, or, like, whatever, but it was, it was a great date. Like, it was a great night.

Sarah: That’s the kind of date where you have a crappy date, you can be like, okay, but it’s definitely not me, because this guy was awesome!

Alisha: Yeah! Yeah, this guy was awesome, and, like, and that’s the thing: I think it’s important, especially if you’re, like, dating sort of widely, and you’re dating a bunch of men. It’s, you know, I heard somebody call it, like, the burner theory? [Laughs] Like, it’s terrible. You have, like, a bunch of burners going at the same time, and, and I’m not saying, like, you know, do this if, if any of them expect you to be monogamous to them or anything like that. Like, honesty always in your relationships, but if you don’t have a serious relationship going on –

Sarah: Light all the burners.

Alisha: And, and especially for someone like me. Like, I, I know I get, like, I get attached very quickly, and, and sometimes I get attached to people who don’t deserve that attachment. [Laughs] And then, you know, and, and, you know, I’ve had a, sort of a lifetime of, like, I didn’t have great self-esteem when I was younger, and, and, you know, and I was scared of men till I was twenty-five and didn’t talk to them, so, like, you know, for me, if I go on a really great date with a guy and I never date anyone else, I’m like, well, that’s it. He’s the only one. Like, he is it. Like, I’m never going to have as good a date as it.

Sarah: That sounds like a byproduct of romance, though –

Alisha: It is, isn’t it?

Sarah: – because romance is very much about The One.

Alisha: The One, yeah.

Sarah: Like, you’re not supposed to have all the burners going in a romance.

Alisha: Yeah, it’s like the fated mate, right? Like, I met my fated mate! [Laughs]

Sarah: Like, all of a sudden you see in color, and you can tell the twins apart!

Alisha: Yeah, you’re like, yes, it’s like, yeah!

Sarah: Come on!

Alisha: Oh, my God, the twins apart! I love the twins apart! [Laughs] The magic, yes, the twins apart!

Sarah: Your heart starts beating, and you’re like, oh, my God, I can see in color, and you –

Alisha: Yeah, I’m like –

Sarah: – you have, you have six identical –

Alisha: – I’m, I’m fully blooded. [Laughs]

Sarah: – identical sextuplets! I can tell.

Alisha: I can, I can finally have sex with men! [Laughs] Like, that’s how it is! Like, there’s, there’re so many, like, indications! But it’s, like, yeah, the fated mate theory, right?

Sarah: That doesn’t happen.

Alisha: And it doesn’t happen in real life, and there’re plenty of men and women for everybody. Like, that’s the thing: there is no – and this is some, but that’s something that I have to, like, actively tell myself, because I do –

Sarah: Because the, the, the contextualizing of romance and the conditioning is, is –

Alisha: The contextualizing, yeah, yeah. The conditioning is very much –

Sarah: Yup.

Alisha: – like fated mate. Like, you, this is it, this is the only one for you.

Sarah: And there’re so many toxic ways that that, that whole fated mate thing shows up.

Alisha: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: Like, he stuck his dick in, like, three-fourths, three-fourths of the population of this town –

Alisha: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – but then he meets the heroine, and all those women are sluts –

Alisha: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – but she’s not.

Alisha: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: Like, oh, dude. Dude!

Alisha: Yeah.

Sarah: There’re really toxic expressions of that too.

Alisha: There’re so many, and there’s a couple, I mean, I know one of my, one of my issues whenever I read books with, like, curvy heroines or plus-size heroines, and I think I’ve, I’ve talked about this a couple times before, is, like, by all means, write your curvy heroines, please, please. [Laughs] But, you know, it is, one of the themes generally is that nobody has found her attractive before –

Sarah: Until that guy.

Alisha: – this hot guy comes along and finds her attractive, and it is, it is – and I understand, right? ‘Cause I was like, I had, I’ve always struggled with my weight from the time I was very young, like from puberty onward, before puberty, and I was always convinced that nobody would ever find me attractive. Like, that was just, like, my conditioning. Like, this is it. Like, and I remember, like, being very, like, thirteen or fourteen, and a very well-meaning aunt telling me, you know, like, well, if you don’t lose weight you’ll never get a husband. Like, that was, that was where I, like, you know, and, and very well-meaning, and my mother, like, almost murdered her.

[Laughter]

Alisha: I told, I told my mom about it, like, a year later, and she, like, picked up the phone and was like –

Sarah: Oh, no.

Alisha: – how dare you say this to my daughter?! It was fantastic. My mom’s, like, very much on our corner, but, like, you know, like, you, you grow up with these ideas everywhere, and it’s not just cultural. Like –

Sarah: Mm-mm, no.

Alisha: – this is like a –

Sarah: No, it’s pretty universal.

Alisha: – this is, I mean, this is universal, right? And especially, like, with – and actually, like, this is like a Western ideal –

Sarah: Oh, very much so.

Alisha: – like in very much, in very many ways. Like, Indian women used to be like, you liked ‘em with a little fat on ‘em. [Laughs] Like, that was, like, considered really hot, yeah!

Sarah: Like, it used to be fat was a symbol of prosperity –

Alisha: Yeah, it was a sign of –

Sarah: – that you could feed yourself.

Alisha: Yeah! Like, they liked ‘em a little round, and, like, if you look, if you look at older, like, Bollywood movies, like, the, the women all got a little roll around their middle. [Laughs] Like, they’re like, you know, now they’re, like, very thin and, and hard bodied, because that’s sort of what –

Sarah: The Western standard of beauty is.

Alisha: – the Western ideal has, has carried over.

Sarah: But the whole, like, no one found her attractive until him?

Alisha: Yeah.

Sarah: I actually think what that is, what, what that says is the inverse: that she did not believe she was attractive until this one guy taught her –

Alisha: Yeah.

Sarah: – which is just as toxic and dam-, and damaging because –

Alisha: And it’s also –

Sarah: – you’re, you’re building your self-esteem based on someone else’s opinion.

Alisha: Yeah! And the, and the truth of the matter is, listen, there’s somebody for everyone –

Sarah: Yeah!

Alisha: – and nobody will ever – I, I will tell you, I – well, we’ll talk about this guy – [laughs] – I, I will tell you this: like, there’s no such thing as leagues. There’s no – and I –

Sarah: No such thing as what?

Alisha: Leagues. Like, you know, like –

Sarah: Oh, out of your league –

Alisha: – out of your league –

Together: – or in your league.

Alisha: And I hear this quite a bit, like, and sometimes I’ll do it where I’ll, like, text a picture of a guy I’m talking to to my friends, and I’ll joke, like, oh, is, do you think he’s out of my league, or something, ‘cause he’s, like, super hot?

Sarah: No.

Alisha: And they’ll be like, tch, no. [Laughs] And that, you know, and that’s, and that is, like, what you need to hear, and I think that’s what especially younger women need to hear is that there’s no such thing as leagues. There is no such thing as, like, like, everyone has a different taste and different things, and, yeah, maybe some guys won’t find you attractive; maybe you won’t find some guys attractive –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alisha: – but, you know, like, and attraction’s very weird. Like, I have, I have dated guys who have, like, six packs. I’ve dated guys who have dad bods. Like, I’ve, you know, and I’ve found them equally attractive –

Sarah: Yep.

Alisha: – for different reasons, and, and they, hopefully if they’re not, like, you know, whatever, if they, if they don’t have, like, a specific, mm, and some guys are very shallow and, like – [laughs] –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alisha: – want conventionally attractive women, but some guys just want women they’re attracted to, and that can mean a lot of things. So, you know, don’t – and that has taken me years and years and years to learn is, you know, there is not only One?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alisha: And also, like, there’s no league. [Laughs] And there’s, like, but, but it’s good, I think, if you’re, if you’re just kind of casually dating and seeing what’s out there and not fully committed to anyone. If you are fully committed, please do not turn all your burners on. [Laughs] Or before, before you talk to that person, and like, that’s –

Sarah: Yeah.

Alisha: – that’s cheating. [Laughs] Yeah.

Sarah: There’s another order to these things.

Alisha: If you’re poly or whatever, that’s fine. Like, you’re honest, ethically, whatever, and I’m like – [laughs] – you know, like, but, but it is – so, yeah! So, like, you know, I, I liked this guy a lot, but I keep telling myself, like, that’s, and, and it was good to go on a great date –

Sarah: Yep.

Alisha: – because then you can say, like, okay, well, I can go on great dates with a lot of guys.

Sarah: Yep!

Alisha: Like, there’re a lot of guys out there; I’m going to go on great dates with a lot of them.

Sarah: Yep.

Alisha: There is no One –

Sarah: Yeah.

Alisha: – you can, and think about, like, in terms of friendship. Like, do you only have, like, one best friend forever and ever and ever? And will you, like, you know –

Sarah: Never make another friend in your life?

Alisha: – never make another friend again if something goes wrong with that one? No.

Sarah: Nope.

Alisha: Like, you, if something goes sour with that friend, you will –

Sarah: – other –

Alisha: – have another best friend –

Sarah: Right.

Alisha: – and, and I think this is just like, I don’t know, I think it’s just a good way, especially if you’re somebody who attaches quickly and you’ve grown up with this idea of fated mates –

Sarah: One true love that will –

Alisha: – one true love, like –

Sarah: – you know, this, the –

Alisha: Like, you watch The Princess Bride and, like – [laughs] – no, that’s it, you know, and, and not to say that people don’t attach differently, and maybe if you’ve lost your true love, I’m not saying it’s not easy to, like, find someone else you love as much or anything like that, but –

Sarah: But the idea that there’s Only One can do a lot of damage.

Alisha: But the idea there’s Only One can do so much damage to your psyche and to – and especially if you, you, I mean, I have dated guys for, like, three or four months, and I’ve been, and, like, it’s ended, and I’ve been devastated, ‘cause I’m like, well, that’s it; I’m never going to find anyone else as good or perfect or, like, as fun or whatever, but that’s –

Sarah: But see, that’s, that’s a normal feeling. It’s not just the idea that there’s one, but –

Alisha: Right.

Sarah: – it’s, I just invested all of this time and energy –

Alisha: Right, yes.

Sarah: – and –

Alisha: And it’s a healthy, normal feeling, and to grieve that is good –

Sarah: – like, damn it!

Alisha: – but –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alisha: – but don’t think that –

Sarah: That’s it.

Alisha: – your chance for happiness is over, because, like, it didn’t work out with this one guy, so.

Sarah: Yep.

Alisha: So that is the value of going on great, all-night-long dates with, with a guy, even if I don’t really see him again or, like, he finds someone else or I find someone else. Like, that is, I think, the joy and the, the happiness. Like, you need, you need dates like that, even if they –

Sarah: You do.

Alisha: – just are for one night.

Sarah: Well, it’s like reading books.

Alisha: It’s like reading books.

Sarah: You have to have a book that you’re like, oh, my God, this is the best book ever –

Alisha: Yeah!

Sarah: – and you have to have a whole bunch of books that were like, eh.

Alisha: They’re on my shelves. [Laughs]

Sarah: Those were some words.

Alisha: Yeah, yeah.

Sarah: It’s the same alphabet, but I didn’t like the way it was arranged in that case.

Alisha: I think if nothing else, you can just tell yourself, like, I, I had a relationship that ended terribly recently. Like, not, you know, last year, and, and going out afterwards was hard, but I just was like, well, if anything, maybe I can just make a friend.

Sarah: Yeah!

Alisha: Like, you know, maybe I’ll just have a good night, and we can just chat about a lot of cool stuff –

Sarah: Yeah!

Alisha: – and meet someone different, and that’s it, and that’s how I sort of got myself out again, where I was like, okay, well, I’ll just go out with a guy.

Sarah: The goal is not forever and ever –

Alisha: Right.

Sarah: – and I, like, I’m not going to make that decision right now.

Alisha: Right, yeah.

Sarah: That decision isn’t even an option right now.

Alisha: Right, and I think, you know, especially for romance authors, just don’t write your own love story. [Laughs] ‘Cause it’s so tempting sometimes, like –

Sarah: To, like, just write what’s going to happen next?

Alisha: Right, what’s going to happen, to, like, imagine it, like, doodle your names on – [laughs] – like –

Sarah: I think everyone does that, regardless –

Alisha: Everyone does that. I think, like, I think romance, we maybe, like, dream it a little too hard sometimes. It can be, like, very disappointing if it doesn’t work out.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alisha: And it’s kind of like, I mean, if you’re a romance author, I tell, I tell other authors, like, the baseline for publishing isn’t success; the baseline is failure. Like, it is. It’s very, like, depressing.

Sarah: Oh, yeah.

Alisha: Like, the, the odds are, like, you will not be an overnight success. You will not be the next Fifty Shades.

Sarah: No.

Alisha: That is just how it is.

Sarah: No.

Alisha: But –

Sarah: And overnight successes are almost always, like, five to ten years in the making anyway.

Alisha: Right, yes. Yeah. People, someone said to me, like, oh, my God, this overnight success you’ve had! And I’m like, I had my first book came out eight years ago. [Laughs] What are you talking about?

Sarah: Let me tell you about all the publishers that I’ve been a part of –

Alisha: Like, mm, right, and also –

Sarah: – that no longer exist.

Alisha: – I’m still not an overnight success, yeah. [Laughs]

Sarah: Let me tell you all of the places I’ve been –

Alisha: Let me explain all the years I cried about, like, all the books on my shelf. Are you kidding me? Overnight success. But, like, yeah, that is, I think, that’s, that’s what it is. Like, the baseline is not –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alisha: – happily ever after and getting married. The baseline is maybe you make a friend –

Sarah: Yep.

Alisha: – and have a good date.

Sarah: Yep.

Alisha: And I think that’s okay.

Sarah: And the more people that you know, the more likely you are to meet someone who’s more compatible with you in other ways.

Alisha: It is, yeah.

Sarah: I mean, it’s, it’s really interesting to look at dating stories from fifty, sixty years.

Alisha: Mm.

Sarah: I married the girl across the street.

Alisha: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: I married this girl; she lived in my building. I married this girl whose, whose cousin lived near me, and I met her every summer. Like –

Alisha: Yeah.

Sarah: – you marry, you, you, a lot of people married in proximity.

Alisha: Yeah, yeah.

Sarah: You know, we were from the same town and went to the same school.

Alisha: Yeah.

Sarah: And I did that, and I realize how abnormal that is –

Alisha: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – in the ‘90s.

Alisha: For our generation, yeah, yeah –

Sarah: Yes, for our generation –

Alisha: – very abnormal.

Sarah: – it’s very weird.

Alisha: Yeah.

Sarah: And there’s only, I think there’re only two couples out of my graduating class that are married, me and, and another one. And even then I feel like –

Alisha: We haven’t –

Sarah: – you guys are still together, right?

Alisha: Yeah! [Laughs]

Sarah: I’m like, I’ve been pulling for you guys to be okay!

Alisha: We had, in my high school class, we had two couples, and one divorced –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alisha: – and now are remarried to people they did not know. [Laughs] I think they met ‘em on, maybe on apps. I don’t know. [Laughs] It was, but not –

Sarah: The thing is, one thing I’ve realized, being with the same person since I was nineteen and then getting married at twenty-five –

Alisha: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – is that you change a lot –

Alisha: Yeah.

Sarah: – as you grow up.

Alisha: Yeah, yeah.

Sarah: One of the parts of our wedding vows was that we promised to love each other’s bodies as they aged –

Alisha: Aww!

Sarah: – and accept that we’re going to age, which is –

Alisha: That is so cute! [Laughs]

Sarah: – which is – I know, super nauseating – but you, you look at, you look at all of the changes your body goes through –

Alisha: Yeah.

Sarah: – just between thirty and forty –

Alisha: Yeah.

Sarah: – holy shit. Your –

Alisha: Oh, God, so many!

Sarah: You change so much as you age –

Alisha: Yeah, yeah.

Sarah: – and your priorities change. I mean –

Alisha: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – I’m not friends with any of the people that I was friends with –

Alisha: Yeah.

Sarah: – when my husband and I met, except for him –

Alisha: Yeah.

Sarah: – but we’ve grown up and changed, and –

Alisha: Yep.

Sarah: – you know, we work on our relationship. Like, it’s, it’s, I like doing it, but it’s work. It’s not just –

Alisha: Yeah.

Sarah: – like, okay, this is done; I don’t have to take care of it.

Alisha: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: And the people that you meet now are more aligned with who you are –

Alisha: Yeah.

Sarah: – and there can’t be just One, because what if you meet that One at the wrong time –

Alisha: Right.

Sarah: – and you haven’t grown into the person you’re going to be?

Alisha: Right, yeah. No, I think – and that’s very true. I mean, I think between – I probably started, like, actively heavily dating when I was, like, twenty-nine. Like, I was like, I’m going to get out there. [Laughs] Like, I’mma do this. And I’ve taken breaks along the way, but I’m thirty-four now, and the amount that I’ve changed from twenty-nine to thirty-four, like, I found my –

Sarah: Oh, it’s massive.

Alisha: I found my old match profile from, like, when I was thirty, I think, and I – you know, it’s been defunct since then – and I read it, and I’m like, this isn’t me!

Sarah: Who the fuck is this person?!

Alisha: And I’m like, this isn’t me at all! Like, what is this?

Sarah: Is this me? This is not me at all.

Alisha: It’s not me at all! And if I’d met someone then and we’d gotten together and gotten married or whatever, I would have hopefully, you know, I would hope that we’d grown together, and I think that’s –

Sarah: Right.

Alisha: – I think that’s the thing, like, you know, about the bodies, you know, as they age, and as, like, we age, I think, as people, you know, sometimes couples can grow together –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alisha: – and, like, develop together, and sometimes they can’t –

Sarah: Oh, yeah.

Alisha: – and they grow apart, and they develop apart. It’s not really anyone’s fault, you know, if that happens. It just happens because we are not, we are just constantly changing, evolving creatures, and, and, you know, I, and, and I definitely, I definitely think who I am now is, like, maybe, like, the pinnacle of me? [Laughs] Like, I don’t know how much more I’ll grow and change, but I don’t know! I mean, maybe I’ll be different in five or six years or ten years or whatever.

Sarah: I think that it’s possible for –

Alisha: Like, our core, I think, doesn’t really change, but, like –

Sarah: No, your core values and your moral compass –

Alisha: – yeah, your core, your core is, like, who you are, yeah.

Sarah: – do stay consistent. I think that there’s a damaging amount of messaging sent, especially in Western culture, especially in the States, about ambition.

Alisha: Mm.

Sarah: You constantly have to level up. You constantly have to grow.

Alisha: That is true, yes.

Sarah: You constantly have to make the next level. If what you’ve hit is happiness and care for yourself and you’re content with your life –

Alisha: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – dude, you win.

Alisha: Yeah!

Sarah: You’re good.

Alisha: Yeah.

Sarah: Keep that.

Alisha: Yeah.

Sarah: And contentment is totally victory.

Alisha: And that’s where I’m at now, where I’m kind of like, you know, there’s a – I still remember, there’s a question on OkCupid in their little questionnaire thing, and I, I remember it, and it, it says, are you looking for someone… and the choices are: that you can go out with, or that you can come home to?

Sarah: Oooh!

Alisha: And I’m –

Sarah: Good question!

Alisha: [Laughs] Isn’t that a great question? And I, I sort of ask myself that, like, weirdly, at, at the oddest times, where I’m like –

Sarah: Oooh!

Alisha: – is this a guy that I would go out with, or is this a guy I would come home to?

Sarah: Whoa.

Alisha: And I think, because right now, where I’m at in my life is, I have, I have great, I’ve had great luck and success in a number of ways, and I’m very content with everything, but I want, you know, in my, in my next book, in, in Wrong to Need You, there’s a scene where the hero and the heroine are sitting on the couch –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alisha: – and the heroine’s a widow, and, and she thinks to herself, like, oh, she hasn’t had this unwinding of a day in a long time with someone.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alisha: And that’s kind of what I want. I want to come home from killing it – [laughs] – as this guy, as this adorable man I went out with said, and I want to tell someone about it –

Sarah: Yep.

Alisha: – and so I want someone to come home to.

Sarah: Yep.

Alisha: Like, I want somebody that I can text, like, when something good happens –

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Alisha: – or when something bad happens, but, like, I want, I want that, and I think, you know, that’s, I think that’s something, like, that’s what, you know, my heroines sometimes want, or I think, you know, but I think that that’s a good question to sort of ask yourself. When you’re with someone or, you know, if you’re trying to figure out what you want in your world and, like, you know, narrow in on that, and then you can sort of, you know – and I haven’t found my Happily Ever After, so maybe, you know, but I think it’s a good question to sort of, to know what you’re looking for in a partner.

Sarah: Yes.

Alisha: Are you looking for someone who you can just go out and have fun with, which is great, or, or, at the core, are you looking for someone you can do that with and also then come home with?

Sarah: Yeah.

Alisha: So.

Sarah: I’m going to stop recording, ‘cause I can’t top that.

Alisha: [Laughs]

[music]

Sarah: And that is all for this week’s episode. I want to thank Alisha Rai for hanging out with me and talking about dating. I know a lot of you liked the prior interview. I hope you like this one just as much, and if you’ve got questions or ideas, please contact us! You can email me at [email protected]. You can even record a voice memo and email it to me, and do not worry, you will sound fabulous! Or you can leave me a voicemail at 1-201-371-3272. I would be delighted to hear from you, especially if you’ve got good date stories or bad date stories, and I promise I will do a follow-up if you would like where we talk about some of her dating horror stories, and some of the good ones too.

Today’s podcast was brought to you by The Secret of the Sheikh’s Betrothed by Felicitas Ivey. This book will be out on November 15th from Dreamspinner Press. It’s a contemporary male/male romance, part of the Dreamspun Desires line, where the men are hot, the romance is rocking, and there’s always a Happily Ever After. A billionaire and a Bedouin girl, each with a shocking secret. Billionaire Fathi al-Murzim is a workaholic businessman too busy running the family’s companies to even think about marriage. Also, too bad he’s never told his grandfather that he’s gay, because grandfather has just announced a childhood betrothal to a Bedouin girl Fathi has never heard about before. Ikraam din Abdel was raised as a woman by his avaricious older sister, who didn’t want him being their father’s heir. He never thought that he’d be married and is surprised when his sister informs him of his betrothal. When Fathi and Ikraam meet, they’re drawn to each other in a manner neither one of them expected, and as plans for their wedding progress, they both realize they need to tell the other person the truth. But can they, with both cultural taboos and family pressures to deal with? You can find out more about this author’s work at dreamspinnerpress.com, and I will have links to the author’s page at Dreamspinner and more information about this book at smartbitchestrashybooks.com/podcast.

The music you are listening to is provided by Sassy Outwater. This is the Peatbog Faeries; this track is called “Marx Terrace.” It’s the same track that I used on my earlier interview with Alisha Rai; I thought it might be fun to tie them together musically and topically. You can find Sassy Outwater on Twitter @SassyOutwater, and you can find the Peatbog Faeries at their website, peatbogfaeries.com, and you can find their music on Amazon or iTunes or wherever you get your funky, funky music.

I will have links to the books that we mentioned. There were not many, but I will also have links to some of the apps that we mentioned, some of the sites, and, of course, the, the Instagram cross-stitch where dick is far too plentiful to put up with this. It’s truly beautiful, and, you know, I can think of no greater tribute to someone who is funny and wise on the internet than someone cross-stitching what they say. That’s pretty rad.

If you are a fan of the podcast and would like to learn more about how to support us, here are three ideas. Idea number one: subscribe and tell a friend that you like the show, because that is awesome. Equally awesome: leaving a review on whichever apps or programs you use to access your podcast. Reviews are very powerful things, and I’m not just saying that, because (a) I write them, and (b) I know how podcast algorithms work. Your opinion is very important, so if you like the show and you want to leave a review for it, I would be very grateful!

And idea number three: you can have a look at patreon.com/SmartBitches. For monthly pledges starting with one whole entire dollar, you can help support the show, help me continue commissioning transcripts for older episodes, and help make the audio quality continue, continually improving, even though, like I said in the intro, today is a day where I am really not good at wording. Today is not a good wording day, which’ll be great fun if, like, someone I actually have to talk to on the phone calls me.

Now, I have been ending the episodes with terrible jokes, and today is no different. Are you ready? Here we go:

So, when birds fly in a V, how come one side is longer than the other?

Give up? When birds fly in a V, why is one side longer than the other? Because there’s more birds on that side.

[Laughs] I can hear you groaning! I had a really good time in the Reddit dad jokes thread, and that came from a Redditor named Mr. Gritty. Thank you, Mr. Gritty! That’s a terrible joke.

I also told my joke, a joke to my husband really late at night one night, and I cannot remember what it was, and neither does he, so trust me that as soon as I remember I will share it with you.

But until then, on behalf of Alisha and everyone here, including Orville, who is sprawled across my desk, we wish you the very best of reading. Have an excellent weekend. We will see you here, or hear you, next week!

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