256. Pop Culture Between Couples: I Interview My Husband

[music]

Sarah Wendell: Hello, and welcome to episode number 256 of Smart Podcast, Trashy Books, a podcast dedicated to romance fiction and the women who read and write it! I’m Sarah Wendell from Smart Bitches, Trashy Books, and this episode is not about the women who read and write it. In this episode, I’m interviewing my husband.

I almost titled this episode “Same Library, Different Tastes,” because we were having dinner one night and I was talking to Adam, my excellent spouse in question, about a book series that he was reading, and I realized we hardly ever talk about what he’s reading, ‘cause I will go on for hours about what I’m reading, and I have, but unless I’m asking him specifically about a book that I just found and whether or not he’d enjoy it, he doesn’t really talk much about what he reads, and he reads a lot. I thought this was really curious, so he made cocktails, and I handed him a microphone, and we talked about it. We don’t like any of the same things, but we both love reading, so I ask questions about his favorite series, about books that he’s enjoyed that I’ve successfully recommended – which is the best feeling – and what makes a narrative world appealing to him. He likes to read a lot of fantasy, and he loves never-ending worldbuilding and deep nerdy dives into deep nerdy backstory, so he’s a very avid and engaged reader, and he seeks out material outside of the book to find out more, but he keeps all of it inside of his head, which I find fascinating. So I asked him a lot of nosy questions; we discussed the series and trilogies that he loves, including A Game of Thrones, Libriomancer, the Inheritance Trilogy, and a lot more. There’s a very large list of books accompanying this episode. You can find it at smartbitchestrashybooks.com/podcast or at iTunes.com/DBSA. There are a lot of books and a lot of questions, and this is a little self-indulgent of an episode, but I really enjoyed this conversation, and I hope you enjoy it too!

This episode is brought to you by Too Scot to Handle by Grace Burrowes. This New York Times bestselling series with its heartfelt emotions, humor, realistic, honest characters, is a fan favorite, raves RT Book Reviews. In this second book of the Windham Brides series, Burrowes delights Regency romance readers once again with an irresistible, rough-around-the-edges Scot who takes on saving an orphanage to win over the fiery, intelligent woman who captures his heart. As a captain in the army, Colin MacHugh led men, fixed what was broken, and fought hard. Now that he’s a titled gentleman, he’s still fighting, this time to keep his bachelorhood safe from all of the marriage-minded debutantes. Then he meets the intriguing Miss Anwen Windham, whose demure nature masks a bonfire waiting to roar to life. When she asks for his help to raise money for a local orphanage, he’s happy to oblige. Anwen is amazed at how quickly Lord Colin takes in hand a pack of rambunctious orphan boys, amazed at how he actually listens to her ideas, amazed at the thrill she gets from the rumble of his voice and the heat of his touch, but not everyone enjoys the success of an upstart. Colin has enemies who will stop at nothing to ruin him and anybody he holds dear. As Tessa Dare put it, “Grace Burrowes is a romance treasure.” Don’t miss Too Scot to Handle, on sale wherever books are sold this Tuesday, July 25th.

And we also have a transcript sponsor this week, which is so great. Thank you to Harlequin Teen for sponsoring the podcast transcript. Our transcript this week is being brought to you by When It’s Real by number one New York Times bestselling author Erin Watt. A pop star – a regular girl – the world is watching. Wealth, fame, and a real-life romance she never expected, seventeen-year-old Vaughn Bennett lands it all when she agrees to become a pop star’s fake girlfriend in this smart, utterly addictive novel. School Library Journal calls it a fast-paced, he said/she said page turner. Kirkus Reviews writes, When It’s Real is undeniable fun and a quintessential beach read. You’ll fall head-over-heels in love with this electrifying and addictive new romance. Under ordinary circumstances, Oakley Ford and Vaughn Bennett would never even cross paths. There is nothing ordinary about Oakley. He’s a pop star, he’s got Grammy awards, he’s got millions of fangirls and a reputation as a restless, too-charming troublemaker, but with his home life disintegrating, his music well suddenly running dry, and the tabloids having a field day over his outrageous exploits, Oakley needs to show the world he’s settling down. And who better to help than Vaughn, a part-time waitress, trying to help her family get by. She’s the very definition of ordinary. Posing as his girlfriend, Vaughn will overhaul Oakley’s image from troublemaker to serious artist. In return for enough money to put her brothers through college, she can endure outlandish Hollywood parties and carefully orchestrated Twitter exchanges. She can fool the paparazzi and the groupies. She might even start fooling herself a little, because when ordinary rules no longer apply, there’s no telling what your heart will do. You can find When It’s Real wherever books are sold.

Now, I’ve got compliments, and this is my favorite part of the intro. Compliments are so fun! Get ready.

To Lara V.: Cats have taken an informal survey, and while they refuse to release the results to the public, rumor has it that they think you are among the most excellent.

To Maria V.: Recently all the dog tails in the world started wagging at the same moment. It was entirely because of you.

To Jean R.: There are people on the edge of their seats, whatever chair they are in, waiting to see what wondrous things you’ll create next, so keep going.

And to Stuart C.: You are an inspiration to your friends that there is always more time to do something incredible because they watch you do that every day.

Now, if you’re wondering what this is about, have a look at patreon.com/SmartBitches. We are so close to our next Patreon goal. Thank you so much! Because of you and because of Patreons who have supported the show, I am transcribing a few early episodes, way back in 2009, and once we cross the goal, I will start in on the remaining seventy or so episodes that don’t have transcripts yet. Also thanks to Patreon supporters, I will be bringing microphones and my nifty recording equipment to RWA to record some interviews there, and I am so excited about that. So thank you to everyone who has had a look at the Patreon and made a pledge to support us. You have made the show bigger and better and way more gooder.

And speaking of RWA, I have some things to tell you about that. If you are in or near Orlando, Florida, or you will be on Saturday, July 29th, Romance Writers of America will be hosting their annual “Readers for Life” Literacy Autographing. Hundreds of romance authors all in one place, located behind tables in chairs with their names, so you know where they are, and all of the proceeds of book sales will go to literacy organizations. Some of your favorite authors are going to be there, like Alyssa Cole, Tessa Dare, Courtney Milan, Julie James, Cecilia Tan, Beverly Jenkins, Jill Shalvis, and, for the first time, I’ll be signing too! Yay! The signing is at the Walt Disney World Dolphin Resort, Pacific Hall, Saturday, July 29th, 2017, from 3:00 to 5:00 p.m. And RWA just sent out a link to a picture of the layout. I’m right by the cashier lines, so come find me when you’re waiting in line to buy, you know, fourteen zillion books. If you come and find me – I’m in the Ws; we have lots of air conditioning ‘cause we’re at the end of the room – and you mention the podcast, I have a special sticker for you if you would like one. You can find all of the details at rwa.org/literacy.

The music you are listening to is provided by Sassy Outwater; you guessed correctly. I will have information at the end of the episode as to who this is, where you can find it, and how you can buy it for your very own.

And after the outro I have a special outtake, because recording this intro took me, like, forty-five minutes because I had a number of mammal interruptions caused by various mammals that live in my house. So if you enjoy outtakes and me getting exasperated, make sure to keep listening to the end, ‘cause I have a nice outtake for you.

And now, without any further delay, on with the podcast!

[music]

Sarah: First, thank you for the cocktail. Cheers.

Adam Wendell: Cheers.

[clink]

Sarah: All right, so introduce yourself and tell the people who will be listening who you are.

Adam: Hi, I’m Adam Wendell, and I am the husband of Sarah Wendell –

Sarah: Holy –

Adam: – who you may have known from Smart Bitches, Trashy Books!

Sarah: Holy shit, really?

Adam: And this podcast.

Sarah: Yes. And I realized this, when I was setting up all this equipment, that I’ve had this podcast for a whole bunch of years, going back to at least 2011, or all the way back to 2009, when we did the first original set of six or seven episodes? Not until yesterday did it occur to me to interview you for the podcast. This is not because you’re not interesting, but because we don’t really talk about what you’re reading.

Adam: No, I very rarely talk about what I’m reading.

Sarah: Which is weird, ‘cause that’s kind of all I do.

Adam: It’s true!

Sarah: So why don’t you talk about what you’re reading?

Adam: I think it’s because reading is something that I do in my own head, and I tend to spend a lot of time in my own head.

Sarah: Wha-at?! The devil you say!

Adam: Yeah. So I think, I think it’s just because reading is something that occurs within my brain, and I have a tendency to just, rather than want to talk to other people about it, to just keep turning over what I’m reading in my head, and I don’t know if that prevents me from talking about it or if it just prevents me, stops me from wanting to talk about it.

Sarah: And then when you’re reading something, you also like to read things that allow you to take a very nerdy deep dive into whatever it is. Like, you and our older son have the love of taxonomy in, in common, where if there is a world with a system of organization and rank and extra information and Easter eggs and extra, extra bits that aren’t in the original series, you are all about that.

Adam: Yes, that is absolutely true. I, part of it has to do with what I read, which I know is going to be, you know, we were going to talk about in a little bit, but I like stories where there’s, you have to figure out what’s going on. I’m not a murder mystery person, but I do like epic fantasy and series where there’s a lot of books and a lot of pages and words within those books because you have to figure out what the overarching thing is, what’s causing this, what’s causing that, what’s going to happen next. It’s solving those puzzles that is part of reading for me. That’s a, that’s one of the most enjoyable parts of reading is not only getting the story but trying to stay a step ahead of the story.

Sarah: Right.

Adam: But I’m also that kind of person naturally. I’m the person who, when the gifts are wrapped, you know, picks up every gift and tries to figure out based on size, weight, shape –

Sarah: Yes.

Adam: – density, exactly what it is –

Sarah: I know.

Adam: – because I like to puzzle out everything.

Sarah: Yes, I know. That’s why I wrap your Hanukkah gifts in boxes that are the wrong size.

Adam: Yes.

Sarah: Yes, I do.

Adam: Story checks out.

Sarah: [Laughs] You and I have known each other since we were seventeen, and this year we’re turning forty-two.

Adam: You’re already forty-two, ‘cause you’re forty-eight days older than me.

Sarah: I know, I’m very old. Old and wise, much wiser than you for the next couple of weeks.

Adam: Yeah, you’re much wiser than me for the next, yeah, hundreds of years.

Sarah: [Laughs] So, we’ve known each other for many years, and only in the last few have I really felt comfortable saying, hey, I think you might like to read this. But I learned, because I know you’re stubborn, if I say to you, here’s a link to a book, and I think you might like it, you’re not as apt to look at the book as if I just buy it for you and gift it to you and hey, surprise, you have a book.

Adam: That’s less true than it used to be, I think.

Sarah: But for a couple of years –

Adam: Yeah.

Sarah: – I would suggest things and you’d be like, ah, okay, even though I would reassure you I was not giving you romance, ‘cause you’ve tried to read romance, and it is not your thing, which is totally fine.

Adam: That is true.

Sarah: Yep.

Adam: But part of it also is, when I’m in the middle of reading something, whether, particularly if it’s a, if it’s a series that I’m in the middle of and there are more books to come, I will have no interest in even looking at anything else –

Sarah: [Laughs] Yes.

Adam: – until I’m finished with it.

Sarah: Yes, you’re a completist, and I will give up whenever the hell I feel like giving up.

Adam: Right, I, I’ve never started a book and not finished it.

Sarah: Yeah. I, I don’t understand how that works. How many times have you read A Game of Thrones now? Like, five or six?

Adam: All five books? At least four times all the way through, and one time I read them out of order.

Sarah: Are, were you ill?

Adam: No, I was looking for something, and –

Sarah: Then you started reading them again?

Adam: – in one of the middle books, and I just started reading, yeah.

Sarah: Yeah, I’ve done that. So it, it wasn’t, I think, until you were reading A Game of Thrones for the third or fourth time that I was like, okay, if this is what you dig, then I want to see if I can make recommendations for you, because, honestly, making recommendations for you is very difficult. I don’t read high fantasy. I don’t read books that are nine zillion words long and then come with another five books that are nine zillion words long, and I also don’t deal well with violence and battles and death, and you get a fair amount of that in some fantasy, especially in A Game of Thrones where, you know, all your friends are dead.

Adam: All of his friends are dead.

Sarah: All his friends are dead. So I was actually very nervous to start recommending books to you, but I’ve had a pretty good track record.

Adam: Yes, I think so. I don’t think that you’ve recommended anything for me that I didn’t like. Obviously, you know, there’s a scale with everything, but –

Sarah: Right.

Adam: – I don’t think that you’ve recommended anything for me that I disliked.

Sarah: Well, that’s a good thing! What are some of the things that I’ve recommended that you’ve really liked?

Adam: The Rook and the book that comes after it, whose name I can’t remember now.

Sarah: The Pawn, I think?

Adam: It’s not; it’s not a chess name in the title. Those I really, really liked.

Sarah: How come?

Adam: The worldbuilding was excellent, and the characterization was excellent. I can probably deal with plot holes or plots that don’t move particularly well or things that take a long time much more than I can deal with bad characterization and bad worldbuilding. I, those things, I, I care about those things more, particularly because I like books that are in series, and it’s important for me to get attached to the characters and attached to the world, probably more important than to get attached to a storyline which –

Sarah: Or a plot.

Adam: – which could be going on for, you know, books and books and books and could change.

Sarah: What you want to do is hang out in that world and hang out with those characters.

Adam: Yes, and learn more about the, that world as well, because usually in these fantasy series that are multi books long, part of the puzzle of what’s going to happen in the book is also learning more about the world and how the world works and how the magic system works. And I do like it when there’s a magic system that sounds enough like science so there are rules and it’s not just, everybody can do whatever they want. There’s got to be limitations, and there’s got to be rules, and it’s got to, I want to say, it’s got to make sense, which, I mean, it’s magic; it doesn’t actually make sense, but it’s got to –

Sarah: But it has to be consistent, and it has to have a cost.

Adam: – be consistent and, and logical within the world.

Sarah: Yes.

Adam: So I like the Rook books. I loved the Libriomancer series by Jim Hines.

Sarah: I sent you those, right?

Adam: You told me about the first one, and then I just read the remaining three, I guess, ‘cause I think there’re four total now. Yeah. So that was, that might have been the first thing that you recommended for me that I loved.

Sarah: I’m so happy. [Laughs] Like, seriously, inti-, recommending books for you is really intimidating –

Adam: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: – ‘cause it’s not the genre in which I’m strongest, and because we’re, we’re married, your happiness with a book is even, it comes with even more weight. Like, I want you to read something that you enjoy as much as possible, even if it’s, like, a, a book that’s 99 cents on sale. I’m, I do research when I recommend a book for you. Like, okay, what’s, how’s the, what do the reviews say about worldbuilding? What do the reviews say about character? What do the reviews say about the multiple plotlines?

Adam: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: I’m almost tempted to rep-, recommend some urban fantasy series that do have a romantic plotline, but those don’t seem, the, the emotional journey of a romance does not seem to appeal to you too much in what you read, which is, I’m not, this is not a judgment, and I’m totally cool with that.

Adam: No, I, I need some degree of risk in what I’m reading.

Sarah: And with the two characters who are determined, who are destined to be in a romance, there’s no risk there.

Adam: Right. So –

Sarah: ‘Cause they can’t have a Happily Ever After if one of them is dead! It doesn’t work!

Adam: That’s true, but in, in, in your fantasy series, for the most part, the hero or heroine wins, but often there’s a cost, and often that cost is the hero or heroine’s life, so they could win and save the world or do whatever it is that is the goal and still die, or they do it, but they have to sacrifice every person they care about. That’s okay.

Sarah: Yeah, I, I can’t, that’s, that’s not my genre. [Laughs] From listening to that, going no, nope, nope, nopenopenope.

Adam: I need to not know exactly what’s going to happen, because I need to be able to spend time in between sitting down and reading the book, when I’m on the train – actually, no, I’m reading on the train – when I’m at work or when I’m trying to fall asleep at night or whatever, puzzling through the book, because that’s what I do; that’s how I fall asleep at night.

Sarah: And the surety of the two char-, two main characters who are having a, a romantic arc living through the experience removes a little bit of the risk that you find really interesting to think about.

Adam: I think that’s right.

Sarah: Yeah.

Adam: Yeah, I think that’s right. The, I mean, you and I, though, we’ve talked about this before. It’s not just books; we diverge in our entertainment tastes in everything: in television and movies –

Sarah: Oh, yeah. Our overlap is very, very slim. We watch cooking shows.

Adam: Cooking shows and a few animated things.

Sarah: Bob’s Burgers.

Adam: Archer.

Sarah: I’ll watch Archer, but there was, there was an episode in this season where I was like, I could be done with this show because that was unnecessarily cruel and violent, and I am not here for this bullshit, and even if it was, even though it was animated, you knew, you were like, oh, my God, are you okay? And I was like, no, I’m not okay!

Adam: Yeah, I was not prepared for that.

Sarah: Yeah, I was not, I was not here for that. We both like Master of None, but I’m in it for the romance. I’m in it for his emotional journey.

Adam: I’m in it for the jokes.

Sarah: And you’re in it for the jokes.

[Ringing phone]

Sarah: And our phone is ringing.

[Adam and Sarah sing]

Adam: The phone –

Sarah: The phone is ringing!

Adam: – the phone is ringing!

[Ringing phone]

Sarah: I bet it’s the entire state of Maryland!

[They resume speaking]

Sarah: So, the phone has rung. Now the UPS guy will come to the door, and Zeb, who is sitting next to me, will lose his ever-loving mind.

Adam: And I’ll start singing “Who Let the Dogs Out?”

Sarah: Yes. Our ov-, our overlap is, is pretty slim. I’m going to try Glow with you, we’re going to save that, and we’re going to do a, this summer we’re going to do a Parks and Recreation start to finish. I have committed to being a completist.

Adam: We’re not going to finish it before the kids get home from camp.

Sarah: No, no, not before the kids get home from camp, but we’re going to start it.

Adam: Yeah.

Sarah: What else do we watch together?

Adam: Certain types of action. I mean, the, the superhero movies are something we all watch as a family. I know you don’t necessarily like them –

Sarah: I’m really struggling with them. After –

Adam: You’ve got a little superhero fatigue.

Sarah: No, it’s not even superhero fatigue. It’s high-body-count fatigue. I’m fine when I’m watching it, and then when I try to go to sleep, I wake up in the middle of the night and I cannot stop thinking about the entirely huge number of people that died. Like, for example, with Wonder Woman, I was completely fine; I loved it.

Adam: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: I thought it was so great. I could not have enough positive things to say about it, and in the middle of the night I woke up thinking about mustard gas and that entire village, and I could not sleep for two hours. It’s like –

Adam: Well, that was also a superhero movie married with a war movie.

Sarah: Yes, and I don’t do well with those.

Adam: Right. I mean, I watched Saving Private Ryan without you.

Sarah: Ye-, yes, yes, you did. I’m trying to think of the, of the superhero movies, ‘cause you, you recorded most of the Marvel movies, ‘cause last year we did a start-to-finish Marvel rewatch.

Adam: Right, and, and that’s actually part of my style of liking things where there’s a continuing universe, and everything comes together –

Sarah: And a larger story arc.

Adam: – and a larger story arc, because generally I prefer TV to movies, because TV continues on and on and on and on and on.

Sarah: And you’ve heard my rant about television writers.

Adam: Right.

Sarah: They don’t want an end! They don’t want an end; they want syndication. You know what I like? [Whispers] The end.

Adam: But with the superhero movies, particularly what Marvel’s done, is that everything is interconnected and you’ve got, you know, Tony Stark showing up in the Spider-Man movie that’s going to come out next week, and that’s more interesting to me than a standalone Spider-Man movie would be where it doesn’t connect to anything else and any other property because I like the –

Sarah: The interconnectedness.

Adam: – the interconnectedness and the continuousness, or continuation.

Sarah: And the idea that one story is taking place at the same time as another story in the same world.

Adam: Yes. I hate to say goodbye to characters and worlds and – yeah.

Sarah: [Laughs] I’m amazed we’re married!

Adam: I –

Sarah: I’m like, I love the end! The end is the best part!

Adam: – don’t like the end. I will, like, I just recently – I guess maybe a month ago now – finished the last Fitz book from Robin Hobb. So this was Assassin’s Fate.

Sarah: You’ve been talking about this, you’ve been talking about this series for most of this year.

Adam: Yes, I probably started reading it, picked it up in November –

Sarah: Did I –

Adam: – October, November.

Sarah: – get you started on this one?

Adam: No, it was –

Sarah: I don’t think I did.

Adam: – it was – I probably, I think, if you like George R. R. Martin and you like Pat Rothfuss, you will also like this. This is how I found it –

Sarah: Yep, that makes sense.

Adam: – just Google searching that – and last book was just, I finished it just about a month ago, and that was the, we knew that was the end of this series: fifteen books, really, set in this world. There might be more, but not with this character.

Sarah: Given publishing right now, that’s kind of miraculous.

Adam: And, and they were done in trilogies –

Sarah: Right.

Adam: – so there were five different, alternating different parts of the world, but when I started to get to the end, I slowed down. I would only let myself read a certain number of chapters a day because I did not want to be finished.

Sarah: And when, I remember when you were reading that book, and when you finished those books, that was one of the very few times where we would be walking the dogs together, and you would want to tell me all about it. And I love hearing about books that – like, one of my favorite things to do is, genuinely, to be all nosy and ask people, what are you reading, and what are you, what, what book has really made you happy? You genuinely wanted to talk about that book and the world of it and the things that you, like, read about, and all of the things that happen in that series, and that’s not generally a thing that you do.

Adam: It’s not, but in that particular case, I wanted to talk to you about it because there were particular aspects of the way it played around with gender roles and the way it played around with different aspects of love that I thought you would be interested in.

Sarah: Which you’re entirely right. Also dragons.

Adam: Now, it was, there was still too much violence and main characters not making it through to the end of the series –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Adam: – so you would not have, probably, been able to read them, but –

Sarah: I’m way happier with the Adam’s CliffsNotes version than the actual reading experience.

Adam: There you go.

Sarah: And, and it’s frustrating, because I know that there are a number of books that I would really like to read, but that part of my brain that wakes up three in the morning and says, hey, let’s think about mustard gas and an entire village of dead people, cannot handle those particular stories, which is why I recommend them to you.

Adam: I think you could get through The Name of the Wind. It’s –

Sarah: The Patrick Rothfuss series?

Adam: – yes – except for one scene, which is relatively early in the first book, because, you know –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Adam: – the hero’s parents have to die.

Sarah: Oh, it’s, yeah, it’s part of the story. It’s much better when it’s happened before the start of the book for me.

Adam: Right.

Sarah: Like, they’ve already coped with the loss.

Adam: This is about probably twenty percent into the first book.

Sarah: Yeah, nope.

Adam: But other than that, I think actually you would really like it, and there’s not too much nastiness.

Sarah: I, I have it –

Adam: That’s not true. There is nastiness; there’s not too much violence. There’s people being mean to each other.

Sarah: Ah, well, that I can handle. So what are you reading right now?

Adam: Right now I am reading N. K. Jemisin’s Inheritance Trilogy.

Sarah: I definitely recommended that to you.

Adam: That you –

Sarah: I recommended The Hundred Thousand Kingdoms to you, like –

Adam: Yes.

Sarah: – five or six times and waited it, waited for it to go on sale and was like, okay, now you have to buy it.

Adam: So, the first book is The Hundred Thousand Kingdoms, the second book is The Broken Kingdoms, and I’m near the beginning of the third book, which I think is called The Kingdom of Gods, but I could be wrong because I bought it as a single-volume trilogy, so I don’t actually know –

Sarah: That’s fine.

Adam: – the titles of the individual books.

Sarah: Welcome to my brain. I don’t know what year it is either, so it’s fine.

Adam: So that, that is an interesting series, because it’s a very interesting world, the characters are great, but even though there is overlap, the main characters are not the same from book to book, and that’s usually not my style, but I’m really enjoying it.

Sarah: What do you like about it?

Adam: There’s a clearly defined hierarchy of gods and demigods and humans and demons, and they’re all –

Sarah: There’re rules?

Adam: There’re rules, and there’s, you know, who can die and who can’t die and, and all of this stuff, but it’s, it’s a little different than what I usually read, because that world is what I would call a high-magic world.

Sarah: Mm.

Adam: And usually I prefer a low-magic world where what’s really interesting is the politics. For example, the, the George R. R. Martin books, there is magic, but it’s really a medieval, political saga. There’re machinations and shenanigans, and I’m also a politics junkie, which we didn’t talk about, but I love all of that kind of process stuff and how people are trying to get to do this, and how people are trying to get to do that, and the N. K. Jemisin books are a high-magic world, but there’s all of this politics that’s going on that’s really, the overarching theme is politics, and that’s something that’s very appealing to me about those.

Sarah: So what you like is a world where there are a lot of tiny little steps towards a larger goal, whether it’s politics or magic or a journey or all three of those things. I also –

Adam: I think that’s right.

Sarah: Yeah.

Adam: I mean, take Harry Potter, which –

Sarah: – is one of the series that I remember, I think that might be the series that I first saw you reading the way I read, by which I mean, please don’t talk to me; I’m reading. Which is generally my state of reading. Like, if I’m reading a book, you have to, like, set off fireworks in front of me to get me to pay attention. Harry Potter, and especially as the books came out after we were married and after our son was born, like, we, we special ordered the book, and I sent you to the beach for, like, four hours to read it.

Adam: And you were pregnant with our second child.

Sarah: Right, and managing this first one –

Adam: Yeah.

Sarah: – and I was like, you go read, because I, that was the series that I saw you read the way I read, which I completely understand.

Adam: Right, and that was – I mean, I wasn’t always a fantasy reader, I don’t think. I read a, I read Tolkien when I was in school and loved The Hobbit and couldn’t get through The Lord of the Rings. I, one of the few things that I ever didn’t finish, and that was probably in seventh or eighth grade, and I put it down, and then – I, actually, I know when I read the first Harry Potter book was on our, on the plane back from our honeymoon, ‘cause you had gotten it and read it on our honeymoon, and I had run out –

Sarah: I have no memory of this. Really?

Adam: – I had run out of books –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Adam: – on, on the honeymoon.

Sarah: And this was, this was 2000 –

Adam: This was pre-Kindle.

Sarah: – so there were no eBooks.

Adam: Right.

Sarah: I mean, there were eBooks, but this was not one of them.

Adam: And so I read it on the plane on our way home because you had it, and you were like, here, I think you’ll like this, and then of course I was like, oh, hey, there’re more of these! [Glomming noise] I’ll just keep reading and reading and reading because that’s what I do. I’m a deep diver.

Sarah: And a completist.

Adam: And a completist. Then The Lord of the Rings movies came out. After the first movie came out, we had a long vacation, grabbed all three Lord of the Rings books, and finished them on that vacation. That was really when I started –

Sarah: Glomming.

Adam: – being a fantasy reader predominantly.

Sarah: Right.

Adam: I do read both urban fantasy and medieval – I, it’s not always medieval, but historical fantasy.

Sarah: Medieval-esque.

Adam: Yeah.

Sarah: You, you have to travel on horseback because there’s no other way.

Adam: Right. Although one of the series that I like are the Mistborn series by Brandon Sanderson, and those, he’s going to do four total trilogies in the same world with the same magic system. The first one is medieval-ish. The second one is Old West-like. The third one is going to be present day, and the fourth one is going to be science fiction, future. He’s about one book shy of finishing the second Mistborn trilogy. That’s another thing where there’s time – it’s the same world, it’s the same magic system, but there’s not the same characters because they’re jumping two hundred years in the future each trilogy.

Sarah: So Brandon Sanderson is Mormon –

Adam: Yes.

Sarah: – and has been very public recently about the Mormon church’s stance on gay and, gay marriage and gay rights, which is pretty abysmal, to say the least.

Adam: Feh.

Sarah: Do the actions or the commentary of the author affect how you view the books that they write, or for you are they two very separate things?

Adam: For the most part, and this is, this would be wide ranging, I’m perfectly happy and willing to separate the product from the producer.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Adam: This goes back to me remaining a fan of Barry Bonds to the bitter end.

Sarah: He’s still alive.

Adam: Yes, but he’s not playing baseball anymore, and, you know, I – there’s a line. There’s always a line. Mel Gibson finally crossed the line. Tom –

Sarah: [Laughs] You want to –

Adam: – Tom Cruise came close but didn’t quite get there. I can still watch Tom Cruise.

Sarah: I, but you and I both cannot watch Mel Gibson without being like, oh, you called us oven-dodgers.

Adam: Yes.

Sarah: Got to change the channel now.

Adam: So, had I, had I known Brandon Sanderson’s position on LGBT issues before I started reading his books, I probably would not have picked them up, but now that I’ve picked them up, I would say most likely I will continue, but I’ll feel guilty about it.

Sarah: Or you’ll borrow them from the library.

Adam: Right, yes.

Sarah: So our property taxes paid for them instead of your discretionary funds.

Adam: There you go. I don’t know; I tend to take notice when male authors write strong heroines.

Sarah: How so?

Adam: I’m always surprised by it?

Sarah: How come?

Adam: I think, growing up, and most traditional fantasy literature or – people who don’t want to call it literature can go screw themselves –

Sarah: This is why we’re married. [Laughs]

Adam: The her-, it, it’s a hero, it’s a man, and has a quest and –

Sarah: Women are accessories to the quest.

Adam: Yes.

Sarah: Or they die to give him a reason to go on a quest.

Adam: Or, right, or they are the object of the quest.

Sarah: So your princess –

Adam: Right.

Sarah: – is in a different castle.

Adam: Yes, she is. Poor Mario.

Sarah: And he’s a plumber!

Adam: Well, and also, if we’re talking about Mario, I just have to point out that they are the Mario brothers, so his name is Mario Mario.

Sarah: Wait, what? [Laughs]

Adam: Mario and Luigi are the Mario brothers. Their full names are Mario Mario and Luigi Mario. Mario is their last name!

Sarah: Did you check this out on the Internet?

Adam: Yes, but I’m nearly certain that they are, they’re the Mario brothers! That means Mario is their last name. They are Mar- –

Sarah: They’re actually the Super Mario brothers, so that would mean that their name is Mario Super Mario and Luigi Super Mario.

Adam: I’m pretty sure Super is an adjective.

Sarah: Are you certain?

Adam: I’m not certain.

Sarah: [Laughs] We’ve been drinking.

Adam: Nothing much!

Sarah: No, but I haven’t had a lot to eat today, so, yeah. You’re currently working on the Jemisin trilogy.

Adam: Yep.

Sarah: Which sort of, I believe, comes to an end, but not quite. I don’t know the – I’m not spoiling anything. Do you know what you’re going to read next?

Adam: You recommended to me, and now I can’t remember the name – it’s Ben Aaronovitch, and I cannot remember the name of the book.

Sarah: It was on sale!

Adam: It was on sale, but it’s a series.

Sarah: So the part where I find books on sale is the other awesome part of my job, so whenever I see a fantasy novel that I think is something that you’ll like and it’s book one, I tend to buy it for you or send you the link. Yes?

Adam: Midnight Riot is the American version of Rivers of London. It’s called Rivers of London in the UK and Midnight Riot in the US, and Ben Aaronovitch is the author, so that’s what I’m going to read next, probably on our upcoming trip. Then there’s a high likelihood that I will go back and read A Game of Thrones and one or more of those books again, because the new season of the show is coming out in a week and a half.

Sarah: The, the new season diverges from the books, ‘cause those books haven’t been written yet.

Adam: That’s true, but I tend to go back and reread while the show is on.

Sarah: So you can see the world and then read the world.

Adam: So I can be annoyed that, at, at the way that the show has diverged from the world.

Sarah: Right, yes, that was –

Adam: Or the show has diverged from the books – I’m sorry.

Sarah: Yes. If you were to start a book series, and then the book series was to become a television show, and the television show was so terrible that you couldn’t watch it anymore – like, say, for example, that women were used as decorations and rape was used as a plot device, like, every third episode, and there were far too many boobs, not that I’m thinking of any shows in particular – if that happened, would you stop watching the show, or are you a completist in all things?

Adam: The show and the books are two separate things. The show – specifically with Game of Thrones, so the show and the books are absolutely separate, they’ve diverged so much. The show is something to keep me occupied while I wait for George to either die or finish the next book. George, please don’t die.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Adam: And –

Sarah: ‘Cause you know, I’ve heard many people say that he’s not your bitch.

Adam: He’s not. That’s why I said please.

Sarah: [Laughs] ‘Cause you really want to read the next book!

Adam: But for example –

Sarah:  [Laughs]

Adam: – The Name of the Wind and – why can’t I remember the name of the actual trilogy? – the Kingkiller trilogy that’s Pat Rothfuss’s books, of which the third one is not finished yet, those are going to be a TV show produced by Lin-Manuel Miranda, so I’m pretty sure those are going to be good, but it’s possible those could suck, but I’ll watch those! I mean, you know, again –

Sarah: They’re an accessory to a world you love; they’re connected to a world you love.

Adam: Right. They’re not the same. They are de-, they are different, but they are related.

Sarah: Okay, so here’s a weird question for you: when you are reading, are you seeing and hearing everything in your mind? Are, is this whole world manufactured in your imagination and characters have different voices so you’re basically constructing a television or visual show in your brain?

Adam: Not always. And I thought you were going to ask me when I’m reading, if there is an entertainment property, a movie or a, a show, am I seeing and hearing those voices or am I seeing and hearing –

Sarah: That was my next question. We should, like, hang out more.

[Laughter]

Adam: I think we hang out a lot.

Sarah: It’s true.

Adam: So, with Game of Thrones specifically, it’s interesting. Some, some characters yes, and some characters no. I, I – Kit Harrington is Jon Snow.

Sarah: What about Ferb?

Adam: Ferb. So, in case you don’t know this, Thomas Sangster – Thomas Brodie-Sangster, I believe, is what he goes by – voiced Ferb on Phineas and Ferb, which –

Sarah: Which was one of our family favorite television shows.

Adam: It’s such a good show. You should watch it. It’s great for kids; it’s great for adults. It’s awesome.

Sarah: And there’s a romance!

Adam: And he plays Jojen Reed on Game of Thrones, may he rest in peace, on the show, not in the book – maybe in the book. Unknown. And yes, I do see him as Ferb.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Adam: I don’t, I hear, I see, I hear his voice as Ferb. I don’t see him as, you know, animated F-shaped head with the, you know, the white high collar and purple pants.

Sarah: That would be amazing! [Laughs] Okay.

Adam: But, yeah, Kit Harrington is Jon Snow, even when I’m reading the books, and Maisie Williams is Arya, even when I’m reading the books. Not everyone else fits, because I don’t necessarily think that everyone else looks like they’re written.

Sarah: In your brain, the way you had imagined the character does not translate to the visual.

Adam: Right, although I still, I still will use his voice in my head if I’m reading dialogue.

Sarah: Your brain is busy.

Adam: Always.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Adam: Usually with things like remembering the lyrics to ‘80s TV themes, but, yes, my brain is always busy, rarely with useful things. I’m not going to get the Dave Barry quote from the Book of Bad Songs exactly correct, but it’s something like, you have all this valuable space in your brain that could be used for curing cancer and, you know, solving world peace, and really, you’re remembering the lyrics to “MacArthur Park.”

Sarah: Pretty much, yes. And it is a crime that the audiobook of that book does not include the song samples.

Adam: True.

Sarah: Like, I understand the cost reasons, but it is still a crime.

Adam: Someone left the cake out in the rain.

Sarah: Yes, it was Dumbledore.

Adam: What?!

Sarah: [Laughs] Dumbledore left the cake out in the rain.

Adam: Bastard!

Sarah: [Laughs]

Adam: I mean, I don’t think I can take it!

Sarah: Oh, no. So, now that you’ve switched jobs and you commute by train, you have more time to read books than to just digital snack on social media. Do you find yourself reading more, once you start a series that you really like?

Adam: Yes, although interestingly enough, I don’t read a lot on the train because I listen to podcasts on the train.

Sarah: Oh, right, and if I’m listening to words, I can’t read words. I only get one word input.

Adam: Yeah.

Sarah: Either it’s reading or it’s listening.

Adam: My commute time is my podcast time. While I’m eating lunch at work is when I read.

Sarah: Has being married to me meant that you’ve read more, or is it more that I’ve, I’m more, I’m, I’m more able to recommend books based on the things that I know you like?

Adam: I think I have read more when you’ve found me books. When I find things on my own, whether – I don’t know that it’s related to being married to you – that I will just go binge everything in that world or in that series.

Sarah: So one of the things we talked about yesterday is the fact that I talk about what I’m reading every day. Like, this is a normal part of what I talk about. It’s my job; it’s what I do personally. Like, I basically talk about books most of the time. I’m like a superbly amateur book pimp.

Adam: You’re not amateur any of it. You’re a pro.

Sarah: Oh, thank you, dear.

Adam: I mean, it’s, like, your job, so you are by definition a professional.

Sarah: It is true! You, you are correct; it is my job. But I’m not like a sociologist or a librarian. I just have a website and I talk about books all day. It’s the best job ever!

Adam: Right now I’m giving her a look that says, you don’t give yourself enough credit, for those of you listening at home.

Sarah: Yes, I’m very familiar.

Adam: Or in your car.

Sarah: I’m very familiar with this look. Do you think that I could ever convince you to read a fantasy romance, or is just the absence of risk for the two main characters not enough to occupy your imagination?

Adam: Maybe. The times that I have tried to read romance in the past, I have gotten hung up on the way the hero is described thinking about and caring about his emotions, and I’m just like, no, dudes don’t care! Dudes don’t think about that. That’s where I’ve run into not being able to read it.

Sarah: But, but you care about emotions, and you are teaching our sons to care about their emotions and to be aware of how they’re feeling and that their feelings are valid. I mean, we’re trying to raise two boys in a very prominent era of toxic masculine behavior, so you are aware of those things.

Adam: Well, I’m aware of feelings and, yes, feelings are valid, but the way –

Sarah: Whoa, whoa, whoa, feelings?

Adam: [Sings] Feelings!

[Laughter]

Sarah: Sorry.

Adam: Normally this is when I would start singing the theme to Charles in Charge.

Sarah: [Laughs] Nooo! Don’t! Oh, God, no.

Adam: It was just that, it’s not that feelings are invalid or –

Sarah: Now it’s stuck –

Adam: – or it’s not valid for people to have feelings. It’s that what I was reading was not the way I think a man would experience those feelings. I can’t speak for all dudes. I can, but I shouldn’t.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Adam: That was what I got hung up on, I think, was that it was so much –

Sarah: – internal monologuing and internal conflict?

Adam: I’m fine with internal monologue and internal conflict. I just was not interested in that particular type of internal monologue and internal conflict. I am a walking internal monologue. As we talked about before –

Sarah: [Laughs]

Adam: – I turn things over in my head all the time, and I tend to have conversations with myself rather than others about things. So I’m a walking and talking internal monologue –

Sarah: Yes, I know.

Adam: – but – and I’m not, I’m not trying to denigrate romance, and I don’t – I appreciate it, and I appreciate the people that love it. It just doesn’t resonate with what I’m interested in as far as story and world and things like that.

Sarah: That’s fine. I feel like my, my next, I feel like my next challenge is to find a fantasy romance or an urban fantasy romance that would work for you.

Adam: There are plenty of stories that I’ve liked that have romantic elements. There probably is something out there that I would like and that I will –

Sarah: Mwahahaha.

Adam: Yes, that.

Sarah: So, what do you think of the website? The one that I run, specifically.

Adam: [Laughs] Not just any random website I culd pick?

Sarah: Yes, any – yes. What do you think of Reddit? No – [laughs] – what do you think of Smart Bitches?

Adam: Reddit’s fine. This is fine!

Sarah: [Laughs] This is fine!

Adam: The website specifically? I read it. I don’t read the book reviews, but I read the cover snark, and I read some of the movie and entertainment reviews. I have been reading Elyse’s Bachelorette reviews because that’s hilarious.

Sarah: Get out! I did not know that! Really?

Adam: I probably have not read all of them, but occasionally when you’ve mentioned that they’re there, I’ll go and take a look.

Sarah: That’s so – and they are hilarious. That is so great. The Bachelorette ones are also particularly funny. You have to meet Mr. Tweeters.

Adam: Apparently I have to meet Mr. Tweeters!

Sarah: [Laughs]

Adam: [Sings] The More You Know! [Speaking] But, yes, I, I don’t read everything on the site, because every – it, it’s not for me, but that’s okay, and I appreciate it, and there’s lots of funny stuff on the site and enjoyable stuff on the site for people that don’t read romance.

Sarah: Yay!

Adam: Story checks out.

Sarah: [Laughs]

Adam: 10/10, would marry again.

Sarah: [Laughs more] Thank you for doing a podcast interview with me.

Adam: You’re very welcome! I’d say anytime, but I don’t think there’d be anything else to talk about if we did this again.

Sarah: Well, we don’t talk a lot about what you’re reading, ‘cause like you said, it’s all in your brain, and it takes a lot for you to start talking about it out loud, whereas if I read a book that makes me angry or makes me excited, I, like, I want to tell you all about it.

Adam: Yeah, it’s, it’s a very personal thing for me rather than something that I seek community from, which is very different than what you do.

Sarah: It is very different from what I do, and it’s interesting that you go out and you seek more information about it, but you stop short of participating in that fandom. You don’t actually comment or say anything or do anything. You don’t – and I don’t mean to sound this in a critical way – you don’t add to the fandom. You just observe it and then put it all back in your brain and work on it there.

Adam: Yes, and I would say that the biggest reason for that is that I don’t have the time to go back and do all of the research that a lot of people who participate in these communities – particularly in the fantasy genre and science fiction – do, and I am often reluctant to contribute because I probably don’t have the evidence to support anything that I’m going to proffer, and I’m, you know, a lawyer by trade, so evidence is important.

Sarah: [Laughs] But you’re a guy on the Internet! You don’t need evidence; you can just type in all caps and it’s just as right.

[music]

Sarah: And that is the end of this episode! I hope you enjoyed our conversation. And thank you to my husband for making me a cocktail. If you are curious, I think he was drinking an Old Fashioned, and I was having a Bee’s Knees, which is my favorite cocktail. It involves gin and honey, and I tend to like sweet cocktails.

If you would like to find some of the books that we mentioned, and there were a lot of books that we mentioned, please head over to the podcast entry at smartbitchestrashybooks.com/podcast or iTunes.com/DBSA, where you can find recent episodes and links to books in the iBooks store.

And if you have suggestions for books that he might like or that I might like or you want to ask me a question or you have a suggestion or you just want to tell me a thing, please email me! It’s really cool to hear from you. Our email is [email protected], or if it’s a little easier for you to remember, Sarah, S-A-R-A-H at smartbitchestrashybooks.com [[email protected]]. Both emails go to the same place, which is to me, and I love hearing from you, so thank you!

This podcast was brought to you by Too Scot to Handle by Grace Burrowes. This New York Times bestselling series with “heartfelt emotions, humor and realistic…characters [is] a fan favorite,” raves RT Book Reviews. In this second book of the Windham Brides series, Burrowes delights Regency romance readers once again with an irresistible, rough-around-the-edges Scot who takes on saving an orphanage to win over the fiery, intelligent woman who captures his heart. As a captain in the army, Colin MacHugh led men, fixed what was broken, and fought hard. Now that he’s a titled gentleman, he’s still fighting, this time to keep his bachelorhood status safe from all of the marriage-minded debutantes. Then he meets the intriguing Miss Anwen Windham, whose demure nature masks a bonfire waiting to roar to life. When she asks for his help to raise money for the local orphanage, he’s happy to oblige. Anwen is amazed at how quickly Lord Colin takes in hand a pack of rambunctious orphan boys, amazed at how he actually listens to her ideas, and amazed at the thrill she gets from the rumble of his voice and the heat of his touch. But not everyone enjoys the success of an upstart, and Colin has enemies who will stop at nothing to ruin him and anybody he holds dear. As Tessa Dare puts it, “Grace Burrowes is a romance treasure.” Don’t miss Too Scot to Handle, on sale wherever books are sold this Tuesday, July 25th.

And the transcript for this episode is being sponsored by Harlequin Teen; thank you, Harlequin Teen. The transcript is being brought to you by When It’s Real by number one New York Times bestselling author Erin Watt. Wealth, fame, and a real-life romance she never expected, seventeen-year-old Vaughn Bennett lands it all when she agrees to become a pop star’s fake girlfriend in this smart, utterly addictive novel. School Library Journal calls it a fast-paced, he said/she said page turner. Kirkus Reviews writes, When It’s Real is undeniable fun and a quintessential beach read. You will fall head over heels in love with this electrifying, addictive new romance. Under ordinary circumstances, Oakley Ford and Vaughn Bennett would never even cross paths. There’s nothing ordinary about Oakley: he’s a pop star, he’s got Grammy awards, he’s got millions of fangirls and a reputation as a restless, too-charming troublemaker, but with his home life disintegrating, his music well suddenly running dry, and the tabloids having a field day over his outrageous exploits, Oakley needs to show the world he’s settling down, and who better to help him than Vaughn, a part-time waitress trying to help her family get by? She’s the very definition of ordinary. Posing as his girlfriend, Vaughn will overhaul Oakley’s image from troublemaker to serious artist. And in return for enough money to put her brothers through college, she can endure outlandish Hollywood parties, carefully orchestrated Twitter exchanges; she’ll fool the paparazzi and the groupies. She might even start fooling herself, because when ordinary rules no longer apply, there’s no telling what your heart will do. You can find When It’s Real wherever books are sold.

Now, I will have links to all of the books that we talked about, as well as some of the web pages we mentioned, and I would also like to give you two more links. Are you ready? The first one: patreon.com/SmartBitches. That is the Patreon campaign for this here podcast. You can make pledges beginning with as little as one dollar a month, and those pledges do a lot. Because of Patreons, I am transcribing early episodes, way back from 2009. Once we cross our next goal – and we are so close! So close! Thank you! – I will start in on the remaining seventy or so episodes that haven’t been transcribed yet. Also thank you to Patreon supporters, I have microphones and recording equipment to bring with me to RWA, so I can do interviews and conversations there, and I am so excited about that. And thank you for making the show bigger and better; I really appreciate it. If you’d like to have a look, patreon.com/SmartBitches.

Speaking of RWA, one more thing to tell you, I have another link. If you are going to be in Orlando, Florida, on Saturday, July 29th, you should come to the Romance Writers of America “Readers for Life” Literacy Autographing, ‘cause it’s so cool! They pack hundreds of romance authors in one place; they organize them alphabetically, except for the people who are against the far wall; and then there’re signs to tell you who’s who and where to find them; and then when you buy books and you get them signed, all of the proceeds go to literacy organizations. How great is this, right? You can come and meet authors who you may have heard of, like Alyssa Cole, Courtney Milan, Tessa Dare, Julie James, Cecilia Tan, Beverly Jenkins, and Jill Shalvis. And this year, for the first time, I will be signing at the RWA literacy signing! I’m so excited! Seriously, so excited! I am in the Ws, ‘cause my last name is Wendell, and I’m in the, right near the cashier line, so not in the cashier line, but I’m right near it, so you can come find me. When you’re hanging out in line waiting to buy a zillion books, if you come say hello and mention the podcast, I have a sticker for you if you would like one, so please come say hello. It would be really awesome to meet you, and you can get all of the details about the signings and see the complete list of authors at rwa.org/literacy. That’s R-W-A dot O-R-G slash literacy.

The music you are listening to is provided by Sassy Outwater, and you can find her on Twitter @Sassy Outwater. This is Caravan Palace, because their two-album set is still making me joyful. This track is called “La caravane,” and you can find this album, the two-album set containing Caravan Palace and Panic, at Amazon or iTunes or wherever you buy your music. You can find Caravan Palace on Facebook and on their website, and I will have links to all of these places in the podcast entry.

All right, I said a lot of words. Do I have any other words I need to say? Any dogs that need to bark? ‘Cause I had a lot of dogs barking when I was trying to record this. It was really super distracting. Well, then, I can tell you next week I have a Bitches Assemble episode with me, Elyse, Carrie, and Redheadedgirl talking about the books that we have recommended to new and curious romance readers, and then I have interviews from RWA, which I’ll be conducting next week and I’m very excited about.

So on behalf of all of the mammals here, including my husband and myself, we wish you the very best of reading. Have an excellent weekend. See you next week!

[fast-paced music]

Dogs: Woof! Woof! Woof! Woof!

Sarah: Trying to record. We’ve got tag team barking.

Dogs: Woof! Woof! Woof!

Sarah: I think they might be done.

Dog: Woof!

Sarah: Nope, nope, not done. Now Orville’s on the desk.

Dog: Woof!

Sarah: Yep. Any minute now, if I get Wilbur, I get a four-, a four-mammal interruption, which is nice. Usually it’s just a two-mammal interruption.

Dog: Woof! Woof!

Sarah: Are you done now? Can you be done? It would be good if you were done. Guys. Oh –

[Cell phone vibrates and plays music]

Sarah: And the phone is ringing! This is amazing! Oh, this is the best recording ever.