182. Historical Costumes and Historical Clothing: An Interview with RedHeadedGirl

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Sarah Wendell:  Hello, and welcome to episode number 182 of the DBSA podcast.  I’m Sarah Wendell from Smart Bitches, Trashy Books, and with me today is RedHeadedGirl, also of Smart Bitches!  She contacted me because she really wanted to discuss historical costumes and historical clothing and how they’re not the same things.  All of this was inspired by pictures from the new season of Outlander, which you, if you haven’t seen them, they’re just amazing.  But we talk about costumes from Reign, The Tudors, Rome, as well as Outlander, plus Jessica McClintock prom gowns from the ‘80s, clothing in the Regency, and what it’s like when you see a costume and you think, I bet I can make that.  We also have a very candid discussion about women’s undergarments, the truth about togas, and undercarriage comfort solutions.  

There are a lot of pictures that we talk about, because RedHeadedGirl was sending me images as we were talking, and I will have all of these pictures in the podcast entry, so if you’re wondering what in the world we’re talking about, go to smartbitchestrashybooks.com/podcast, you’ll see the entry for episode number 182, all about historical costumes.  All of the images will, will be in there.

This podcast was sponsored by you.  Yes, you.  You right there.  If you’re listening to this episode, we want to thank you personally.  So if you’re on the treadmill or you’re on a bike or walking the dog or cooking or cleaning or fencing with Colin Firth, please (a) first make sure that the cops don’t catch you with stolen goods and (b) thank you for being here.  You have excellent taste in all things, and we wish you a very good day, so thank you for sponsoring the podcast with your most excellent self.

The music you’re listening to was in fact provided by Sassy Outwater.  I will have information at the end of the podcast as to who this is and where you can buy it.  We have a whole new album to feature for the next few weeks, and I am totally excited about it.

Like I said, we have a lot of images that we talk about in this episode.  We have a lot of links to different things that we’re discussing, Tumblrs that are recommended, museum collections that RedHeadedGirl talks about, so if you’re a little lost, head over to smartbitchestrashybooks.com/podcast.  I’m sorry that this episode does rely on some visuals, but we’ll have a lot of links to a lot of excellent things you may want to check out.

And now, on with the podcast!

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Sarah:  You want to talk about costumes, which is a good thing, ‘cause –

RedHeadedGirl:  I do.

Sarah:  – I don’t know much about them except that no one in romance land seems to wear any kind of supportive undergarments.

RHG:  No, that’s not true.  That’s not true.  There are a number –

Sarah:  On the covers.  On the covers, anyway.

RHG:  Oh, on the co-, on the – okay, covers and writers are two, like, they’re –

Sarah:  Yes.

RHG:  – totally different.  They’re not even in the same species.

Sarah:  Oh, no, they are completely, not even adjacent planets.

RHG:  Yes.

Sarah:  [Laughs]

RHG:  Sorry, I’m – yes.  They’re, they’re sort of generally adjacent, although Caroline Linden’s books, her heroines are wearing their underwear and not much else, but it’s –

Sarah:  Well, you know.

RHG:  – you know, a chemise and stays and everything, so that’s cool.

Sarah:  So when you have a character who is posed on a romance –

RHG:  Mm-hmm.

Sarah:  – cover, who is wearing a somewhat historically connected gown –

RHG:  Mm-hmm.

Sarah:  – and it is open down the back –

RHG:  Uh-huh.

Sarah:  – and there is no supportive undergarment, no stays, no boning, no nothing, just bare skin under the dress, is that even possible?  Like would the bo-, the dress even fit without the stuff that’s supposed to go underneath it?

RHG:  It depends on what kind of, it depends on your era.

Sarah:  Mm, I see.

RHG:  I think, because Regency does that whole Empire waist thing?

Sarah:  Yeah, that’s just not a good look for me.

RHG:  Yeah, but it works on a lot of people, and – anyway, Regency.  We’re there all the time.  And it’s –

Sarah:  I’m, I’m there now, I mean.

[Laughter]

RHG:  And if you don’t have stays, if your gown is made with, I mean, your boobs are going to look wrong no matter what.

Sarah:  I always suspect my boobs look wrong most of the time, but in a Regency style Empire waist gown –

RHG:  Mm-hmm.

Sarah:  – it is not so good.

RHG:  Yeah.  I mean, the nice thing about Regency is that if you have a gut of any kind?

Sarah:  Oh, it’s gone.

RHG:  It’s, it’s gone –

Sarah:  Yep.

RHG:  – and looking like you might be possibly five to six months pregnant?  That’s kind of where you’re going for.

Sarah:  Which is easy to hide if you are, ‘cause everyone else looks that way too.

RHG:  Exactly.

Sarah:  I was actually telling a friend of mine last night, for kindergarten through second grade I went to a private school, and they had a uniform.

RHG:  Mm-hmm.

Sarah:  I didn’t have to wear it ‘cause I was in the lower school, but once you got to upper elementary and then middle and high school, the uniform was a square neckline, it was a square three-inch, three-inch-wide neckline that came right over your sternum, and then immediately underneath that square of neckline was deeply pleated fabric that went straight down.

RHG:  Huh.

Sarah:  So the pleats started, if you were a young girl who hadn’t had breasts, it, you know, yeah, it, it looked fine.  Once you got breasts, it was so unattractive.  It was incredible how ugly this uniform was.  And, you know, girls would try to belt it, which just made them look like they had –

RHG:  Mm-hmm.

Sarah:  – epic beer guts, and it was –

RHG:  Yeah.

Sarah:  – it’s a horrible uniform.  I have, I have never seen anything so bad.

RHG:  Ugh.  Yeah, no.

Sarah:  It looks like they changed it, too.  Now I have to find pictures of it, how bad it was, and, like, show them to you –

RHG:  I need to see this.  I need to see this.

Sarah:  Yeah, I’ll see what I can find it.

RHG:  Yeah.

Sarah:  Oh, nope.  Now they’ve switched to kilts and shirts.

RHG:  Okay, that’s –

Sarah:  [Sighs] Man.  I’ve got to show you the ugly, ‘cause it was just, ugh!  Anyway.

RHG:  Yeah.  Anyway.

Sarah:  So if you’re in the, if you’re, if you’re in, in the Regency, you’re okay.

RHG:  You might be okay.  It depends on, kind of, the size of your boobs and, and how perky they are, and how willing you are to jiggle –

Sarah:  [Laughs]

RHG:  – to be honest.  I’m not all that willing to jiggle.  But –

Sarah:  I find jiggling kind of painful.

RHG:  It is.  It’s very uncomfortable.

Sarah:  So what was on your mind when you proposed this topic?

RHG:  Well, pictures from Outlander, season two, came out.

Sarah:  Oh, yes, they did.

RHG:  Yes, they did, and, like, the red gown, you know the one –

Sarah:  I do, but describe it for people who haven’t seen it.

RHG:  It’s –

Sarah:  I will definitely link to it in the podcast entry, but –

RHG:  [Laughs]

Sarah:  ‘Cause everyone needs to see this gown, if only –

RHG:  Everyone needs –

Sarah:  – to imagine the size of the two-door car that could fit –

RHG:  Right.

Sarah:  – under her skirt with her.

RHG:  Right.  It’s French 1740s, the skirt has panniers that are at least, I’m guessing, two feet on each side of her hips.

Sarah:  Easily two feet.

RHG:  Easily.  It’s re-, it’s red.  It’s, like, aggressively red.

Sarah:  [Laughs] And it’s a deep, deep red, too.

RHG:  Yes.

Sarah:  It’s like a purple red.  Purple-based red.

RHG:  Yeah.  I, in the book, I’m, like, 99% certain that this is a dress that’s described in the book as Blood of Christ red.

Sarah:  Oh!  That’s a good description.

RHG:  Yeah.  The neck, the cut of the neckline is not exactly what I would expect to see.  So these pictures came out, and cue a handful of people on Twitter going, oh, my God, the costuming on Outlander is so bad!

Sarah:  Which, I think I heard your head explode from here.

RHG:  Yeah, and –

Sarah:  [Laughs]

RHG:  – and what I really want to talk about is that accurate and historical and good are not synonymous.

Sarah:  Wha-at?

RHG:  And inaccurate and bad are also not synonymous.  ‘Cause you’re trying to serve a couple of different masters when you are the costumer on a TV series or a movie.

Sarah:  That’s set in the –

RHG:  That’s set –

Sarah:  – early 1700s.

RHG:  Right.  Well, it’s set – I mean any time, really.  I mean, even the costumer on Mad Max still had to serve a couple of different purposes.

Sarah:  Mm-hmm.

RHG:  But especially when you’re looking at historical clothing, 100% accuracy is not always possible, and it’s not always really what you want.

Sarah:  Right.

RHG:  And, like, I do historical re-enactment, as you know.

Sarah:  Mm-hmm.

RHG:  As many of our listeners know, it’s a thing I do.  I do Middle Ages and Renaissance; mostly what I wear is Classical Roman, which is neither Medieval nor Renaissance, but that’s not the point.  It’s what I do.

Sarah:  Right.

RHG:  And when The Tudors was on, the costuming on The Tudors was remarkably not accurate, especially in the first season or two.  Things kind of got off the wall.  And then as the series went on, it got kind of closer to a more correct look and silhouette –

Sarah:  Right.

RHG:  – kind of, sort of.  And then it got nominated for Best Costume Design Emmys multiple times –

Sarah:  [Laughs]

RHG:  – which caused some people that I know  –

Sarah:  Some people?

RHG:  – some people to just –

Sarah:  Some people.

RHG:  – freak the fuck out.  Oh, my God!  It’s so bad!  It’s so inaccurate!  I’m like, that’s not – the, the Costume Design Emmy is not here to reward historical accuracy?  That’s not what it does?

Sarah:  [Laughs]

RHG:  And then they go, well, you’re not mad because this isn’t the era that you are concerned with, and this isn’t the era you do, so –

Sarah:  You just don’t understand.

RHG:  – you just don’t understand my pain, and I’m like, oh, yes, I do.  I had that show; it was called Rome.

Sarah:  [Laughs] What did you think of the costumes in Rome?  I mean, it’s not like we’ve got a lot of images running around.

RHG:  Oh, but we do, Sarah.

Sarah:  Except for the three-dimensional ones.

RHG:  The three-dimensional ones, the paintings, mosaics, there’s so many.

Sarah:  This is true.

RHG:  I mean, I’m looking, I, I pulled out a couple of my books, it’s a stack that’s, like, eight inches tall, and that’s –

Sarah:  I remember when you moved.

RHG:  – all of them, yeah.  I mean, these, these are just some of my costuming books.

Sarah:  Right.

RHG:   Just some of them.  I, my desk would, would collapse if I pulled out all of them.

Sarah:  [Laughs]

RHG:  Yeah.  [Laughs] And, like, the costumes in Rome, they were evoking a feel and a look, but the reality is that what, especially Roman women wore –

Sarah:  Mm-hmm.

RHG:  – does not read modernly as sexy.

Sarah:  I would read it modernly as very likely to be comfortable.

RHG:  Oh, it is.

Sarah:  Yeah!  [Laughs]

RHG:  It is, and, but it’s not form-fitting, there isn’t a lot of cleavage involved, there’s no lift and separate of the girls.  It’s not modernly sexy, so what the costumers on Rome did is, they sort of took a general idea and then made it fantasy.  But almost every woman, when you saw her in public, had a palla, which is a shawl thing, so, I mean, they got that.

Sarah:  Right.

RHG:  You, you need that out in public; otherwise you’re a hussy.

Sarah:  Of course.

RHG:  But, like, the, the plebeian women, the lower-class women were more accurate than the upper-class women, especially if Atia was wearing anything?  They made that shit up.  Her hair was good, but they made that shit up.

Sarah:  What about, is it Reign?

RHG:  Oh, my God.

Sarah:  And it looks like –

RHG:  Oh, my God.  No, they – oh.

Sarah:  So Reign, to me, like, when I see stills of it, looks like, I mean, I’m a little older than you, but I have vivid memories of many magazines aimed at teenagers filled with Jessica McClintock prom gowns, and it looks like Jessica McClintock –

RHG:  I had one of those.

Sarah:  Right!  Exactly, with puff, I, I assume there was puff and ruffles.

RHG:  It was, no, it was A-line.  It was very pretty.

Sarah:  Ah.  Nice!

RHG:  It was A-line with the, a sheer back that had just, like, embroidered design on it.  It, it was a really nice dress.  [Laughs] It’s still hanging in my parents’ closet.  We don’t know what to do with it.

[Laughter]

Sarah:  Well, here’s my, here’s, here’s my memory of Reign.  It looked like Jessica McClintock prom dresses from the ‘80s were transported back in time –

RHG:  Um –

Sarah:  – or attempted to, and they didn’t quite make the journey, but they preserved their essential, like, the core of the dress, which is, of course, not at all what people at the time looked like, or wore.

RHG:  Yeah.  Some of it is that; some of it is pulled straight from the closet of The Limited?

Sarah:  [Laughs]

RHG:  I’ve, I’ve seen some of this shit at Express?

Sarah:  [Laughs more]

RHG:  The costuming in Reign, I mean, like, they’re not even trying.  So, I mean –

Sarah:  They’re not going for accuracy; they are going for this looks good?

RHG:  This looks good, this is possibly telling the story we want to tell, or this is what the, the teen and tween girls who are the target audience for this show will want to wear.  The history – [laughs] – I mean, the clothing is as accurate as the history, so.

Sarah:  Well, there you go.

RHG:  You go with that.

Sarah:  [Laughs]

RHG:  But this is my favorite, favorite dress that Reign gave us?

Sarah:  Hang on.  It says strapless in the URL.

RHG:  Yes, it does.

Sarah:  I’m pretty sure that’s not a thing that –

RHG:  No, it’s –

Sarah:  Wha-at?

RHG:  [Laughs heartily]

Sarah:  Whaaat?  What the what?  That’s just –

RHG:  Yes.

Sarah:  It’s a strapless, wrapped, floor-length gown.  Like, there’s no way.

RHG:  There’s no way.  Also, it’s plaid, because this is Mary the Queen of Scots meeting the Scottish lords to support her for something.  I don’t know; I watched that episode, I think I was drunk.

Sarah:  Do you, like, watch this and just, just drink?

RHG:  Pretty much, yeah.  I mean, look, the show, the show is balls-out crazy.  It completely is.  The King of France once accidentally killed somebody by fucking her out a window, so.

Sarah:  He fucked her out a window.

RHG:  Yes, like –

Sarah:  Wow.

RHG:  They, they were going standing up, and the wall ran out, and she fell out the window.

Sarah:  Oh, darn.

RHG:  [Laughs]

Sarah:  That’s too bad.  I’m sad to hear that.

RHG:  Yeah.

Sarah:  Can you imagine that writer’s meeting?  Okay, so –

RHG:  [Laughs]

Sarah:  – what if they’re fucking, right?  And, you know, we can, we can get really close to displaying the actual coitus without showing it, ‘cause, you know, it’s the CW, right?

RHG:  Yeah.

Sarah:  They can, it’s sort of like, you know, you can get close enough to make it clear what’s happening, but then there’s a window.  [Gasps] Whoa, dude.  And of course it’s her.  She has to fall out.

RHG:  Mm-hmm.

Sarah:  ‘Cause the wages of sex is, is window.

RHG:  Exactly, and we know how he died.

Sarah:  Right.  [Laughs] It didn’t involve a window.

RHG:  [Laughs] It didn’t involve a window.  It involved a lance splintering and, you know, going through his brain, but, you know.

Sarah:  Not a window.

RHG:  Not a window.  That, that gown is Oscar de la Renta, by the way.

Sarah:  Of course it is!

RHG:  Yeah.

Sarah:  It’s, actually, it’s Ye Olde Oscar de la Renta.

[Laughter]

RHG:  Yes.  Yeah, so, like, no, Reign is not accurate.  It doesn’t pretend to be, so getting mad that it isn’t is just sort of, like, it makes my head hurt that this is the direction they chose to go in?  But that’s where they decided to go, and they’re committed!

Sarah:  [Laughs] Of course they are!

RHG:  On multiple levels!

[Laughter]

RHG:  So there you go.

Sarah:  So you were looking at the pictures from Outlander –

RHG:  Mm-hmm.

Sarah:  – and you were generally very pleased.

RHG:  Yes.

Sarah:  Do you look at photos like that, even though that’s not your era, and start, like, deconstructing it in your brain?  Like, okay, how did they make that?  How did they –

RHG:  Oh, yeah.  Oh, God.

Sarah:  – how did they do that thing with those pleats?  How did they make this happen?

RHG:  Absolutely.

Sarah:  That’s rad.

RHG:  All the time.  All the time.  I have, I, I can do 3D manipulation in my head –

Sarah:  Mm-hmm.

RHG:  – and, like, so when I started making Roman clothing, being able to do that and look at a statue and go, okay, I see where these folds are.  Now I’m going to go away and think about it, and usually I would be, like, trying to fall asleep and be folding fabric in my head, which can be exhausting.

Sarah:  Right, or it –

RHG:  Could also –

Sarah:  – could work really well.

RHG:  Yeah, it also works.

Sarah:  I am, I know that, much like knitting, once you have learned all of the basic stitches of sewing –

RHG:  Mm-hmm.

Sarah:  – it’s mostly manipulations of, of a core set of acts, right?

RHG:  Yeah.

Sarah:  So once you know most of that core, you can sort of go, okay, well, if you wanted to go that way, then you cut the fabric this way, and if you want that pleat, that’s where that starts.  So you look at something like a statue or a painting or a, a mosaic, and you go, okay, I think I can build that.

RHG:  Right.  I, one of the fun things, fun/frustrating things about, like, paintings that people who do later period, like, fifteen, sixteen hundreds costuming – I mean, I don’t, I don’t do this, ‘cause this is not the era that I’m interested in at this time –

Sarah:  It’s not your jam.

RHG:  – it could, it could happen later – is trying to figure out the layers that are represented in a painting –

Sarah:  Right.

RHG:  – ‘cause you can’t always tell.  You’re like, well, is that, like, a ruffle, or is that an undergarment, or how are the boobs supported?  Is there, like –

Sarah:  Is she hiding a loaf of bread?

RHG:  Right.  Is there a corset?  Is this, is the dress itself stiffened enough that it, it supports you on its own?  What’s going on here?

Sarah:  Right.

RHG:  There’s, there’s a statue in the Museum of Fine Arts in Boston.  It’s, it’s a Roman statue, and we don’t have the head, and we’re missing one of the shoulders, and it’s beautiful, and I’ve spent, every time I go there I spend at least fifteen minutes sort of circling around it trying to trace the draping lines to figure out how many articles of clothing she’s wearing?  Sometimes I think it’s two, sometimes I think it’s three?

Sarah:  Mm-hmm.

RHG:  And what I’d really like to do – [laughs] – is go at it with chalk so that I can try and draw in?  Don’t think the docents are going to let me do that.

Sarah:  [Laughs] What you need is to get yourself some Google Glass –

RHG:  Hmm.

Sarah:  – and then just stare at it –

RHG:  Yeah.

Sarah:  – and no one will be able to tell that you’re taking a very detailed, three-dimensional schematic.

RHG:  Right.

Sarah:  I think that’s a perfectly acceptable use of Google Glass.  [Laughs]

RHG:  That’s right, definitely.  Will you fund that for me?

Sarah:  Totally, yeah, absolutely, no question.

[Laughter]

Sarah:  So what are some other costumes from Outlander’s upcoming season that, that you’re really excited about?

RHG:  I mean, anything that she’s wearing while in Paris.  Anything.  I mean, the, the whole section of the book where they are in Paris and sort of hanging out at Versailles with Louis the Whichever-teenth – I don’t know – the, the King of France and the court of Versailles.  I’m super excited because I know that Terry Dresbach, the costume designer, was like, this is totally balls-out bananas!

[Laughter]

RHG:  They did everything in amazing fabrics and amazing cuts and designs, and being able to go beyond just the, the wools and linens that we saw in season one –

Sarah:  Right.

RHG:  I’m just super excited to see exactly how, how far they go and how crazy they go.

Sarah:  Because season one was the clothes that ordinary people at the time would wear.

RHG:  Yeah.

Sarah:  And it was a lot of wool and wool and knitting –

RHG:  Hmm.

Sarah:  – and cotton and wool.

RHG:  Not so much cotton; mostly linen.

Sarah:  Now they’re going to a whole other place.

RHG:  Yes.

Sarah:  So what are some of the things that you would expect to see.

RHG:  Silk brocades up the ass.

Sarah:  [Laughs] Okay!

RHG:  Up the ass.  The, the MFA and the Victoria and Albert Museum and the Met Museum have lots of costumes and clothing that are not necessarily on display, because they do take up a lot of room?

Sarah:  Right.

RHG:  And people donate all sorts of shit to them, but they have listed on their websites all sorts of amazing dresses.  If you want to just kind of die over what the House of Worth produced throughout the 19th Century – [laughs] – the Met Museum has so much.  So much!

Sarah:  And when you see the House of Worth mentioned in a novel, that’s serious couture, right?

RHG:  That’s serious couture.  They, they had fabric that was woven to spec for them.

Sarah:  Oh, my gosh.

RHG:  So, like, you see these big, giant, brocaded designs, and they’re, like, expertly cut and matched in ways that, that you’re like, no human can actually do this.

Sarah:  [Laughs]

RHG:  How?  How?  How did you – how, how?  How did you – I don’t know how you did that.  I don’t.

Sarah:  And am I right that people in general were smaller?  They were shorter and narrower?  Or am I, or am I only looking at models that are of a specific size and type?

RHG:  Um.  I mean, people have eat, started to, been able to eat better in the past century, kind of sort of.

Sarah:  Mm-hmm.

RHG:  Less malnutrition in theory, kind of sort of; it’s a complicated subject.

Sarah:  No!

RHG:  I know, right?

Sarah:  I know.

[Laughter]

RHG:  But, like, Queen Victoria was a short woman.

Sarah:  Yep.

RHG:  And –

Sarah:  So was Napoleon, but he was a short man, not a short woman.

RHG:  He was a short man, yeah.  But, like, Queen Alexandra was very tall.

Sarah:  Right.

RHG:  Or at least my, my memory of the dresses of hers that I’ve seen on display were tall.

Sarah:  Right.

RHG:  So, I mean, kind of, but I mean, like, buildings for ordinary people were smaller ‘cause they were easier to heat and easier to build.

Sarah:  Of course.

RHG:  That’s my theory.  But, like, you sent us a link of Regency gowns that were very small in the boobs.

Sarah:  Yes, I noticed that and felt, I felt some, some deep sympathy for the big-bosomed girls of the his-, of the history.

RHG:  Right, but, I mean, that was a small sample size.  I have some pictures from the Fashion Museum in Bath with Regency gowns where there’s more, more junk in the…hood?  That doesn’t really, that metaphor got away from me.  The boobs are bigger.  [Laughs] And I’ll see if I can dig those up for you.  And –

Sarah:  Yes, please.

RHG:  – I’ve seen, they also had one of Victoria’s mourning gowns, and you can see that she was, you know, a tiny, a tiny short little woman, and there’s a pair of bloomers that was not so recently found of Victoria’s that were, had a fifty-inch waist.  And I say that, and you’re like, oh, wow, she’s kind of tubby, but those were drawstrings?

Sarah:  Huh!

RHG:  In order to make tho-, to make bloomers work, they have a slit in the middle so that –

Sarah:  Right.

RHG:  – you can pee and deal with your business without actually taking off your giant skirt?

Sarah:  You know, having peed in a wedding dress –

RHG:  Yep.

Sarah:  – I, I wish that that were still more common.  I remember going up to a, a friend of mine at her wedding who I didn’t know super well to the point where I would, like, go in the bathroom stall with her?  And I was like, look, I can tell you have to pee, and you will need help.  We will never speak of this again –

RHG:  [Laughs]

Sarah:  – but, and she had a full train with a, with, at the time was, was caught up in a bustle, I think, of, like, eight buttons from the –

RHG:  Yeah.

Sarah:  – center of her back out to her hips, and I said, so here’s what’s going to happen.  I’m going to grab the back hem of your dress and I’m going to lift it, and you’re going to back, and I’m going to stand to the side of the door, and you’re just going to back straight into the stall, and the, your skirt will be the door, you do what you need to do, and then just come forward, and I will drop your skirt, and we’ll be all, ‘cause she’s like, I never would have been able to pee unattended.  No one told me!  [Laughs]

RHG:  I once helped a friend who was wearing an Elizabethan gown.

Sarah:  Mm-hmm.

RHG:  Like, it was, it was hu-, it was a farthingale, it was a big, regal gown, and I was one of two people who helped her to the bathroom.  One person who had helped make the gown was, managed the actual things.  I was the one who got to receive her underwear.

Sarah:  Whoa.

RHG:  [Laughs]

Sarah:  Wow.  Dude.

RHG:  Like, like, attendant number one was just like, no, you, you can’t wear these.  You’re just, these, here, take –

Sarah:  [Laughs]

RHG:  – you, take these –

[Laughter]

RHG:  – and I was like, I, I guess we’re this kind of friend now.  Okay.  [Laughs] But, yeah, so when you have giant skirts, people –

Sarah:  Yeah.

RHG:  – underpants are not actually your friend.

Sarah:  No.  It, it, it’s, the, the part where there was a slip in the middle?  A slit in the middle –

RHG:  Yeah.

Sarah:  – of bloomers, like, I would bring that back.

RHG:  Yeah.

Sarah:  That would be great.

RHG:  Yeah.  Or, there are times where, like, if I’m at Pennsic War?

Sarah:  Mm-hmm.

RHG:  Which is a two-week-long camping event in, near Pittsburgh –

Sarah:  Right.

RHG:  – and it’s at the beginning of August.  It can be hot.

Sarah:  Just a bit.

RHG:  It’s just a, I’ll just go commando.

Sarah:  I don’t blame you.

RHG:  No.

Sarah:  You know what I mean?  Like, I, yes, of course.

RHG:  Yes, and for the, you know, 99% of the population of the world that does not have thigh gap, because thigh gap is not normal –

Sarah:  No.

RHG:  – it is okay for you –

Sarah:  I’m holding up a lighter right now.  You can’t see me, but I’m holding it up.

RHG:  [Laughs]

Sarah:  Sing it, girl.

RHG:  It’s okay for your thighs to rub together.

Sarah:  It’s not pleasant.

RHG:  It’s not pleasant; however, one, I actually, I spend most of the summer in skirts, and I don’t worry about trying to, like, wear extra, ‘cause that is also hot.  A little antiperspirant between your thighs –

Sarah:  That helps.

RHG:  – helps a lot.

Sarah:  There’s actually a cream from Monistat of all people that I use under my arms when I’m running?

RHG:  Mm-hmm.

Sarah:  Because the friction in your underarm, especially if you shave your underarms?  ‘Cause, you know –

RHG:  Yep.

Sarah:  – pubic hair and underarm hair are a dry lubricant, and that’s why they’re there?

RHG:  Yep.

Sarah:  If, if you have, like, I don’t know if there is a worse minor annoyance, and, and I put this above when you, when you separate the edge of your skin from the edge of your fingernail, and there’s that –

RHG:  Uh-huh.

Sarah:  – little sliver of red, and then you cook something salty –

RHG:  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sarah:  – and you want to die?  I think this is worse than that, and that’s pretty bad?

RHG:  Mm-hmm.

Sarah:  When you are wearing a sports bra with an underwire, so that there is a small ridge under your arm, and you’re running or walking quickly, and you de-, develop a straight line of, of, of irritated skin right where the edge of the underwire is?

RHG:  Mm-hmm.

Sarah:  Like, that is so painful for me for, like, days.  There’s a cream from Monistat that does a really good job of per-, preventing it.

RHG:  Yep.  Yep.  Also, Body Glide?

Sarah:  Body Glide!  Ohhh –

RHG:  Is designed for that, and –

Sarah:  Body Glide is amazing.

RHG:  – when you get the chafing, ‘cause you will get the chafing, no matter how much you try to avoid it?

Sarah:  [Laughs] Isn’t it so strange that standards of ideal beauty in some way imply that you don’t sweat?

RHG:  Yeah.

Sarah:  Like, we already take off all of the hair – which has a purpose! – but, you know, you, if you have, if you don’t have thigh gap and you have, you know, arms that are slightly larger than a Pringles can, and you’re going to sweat and have irritation, but you, but you know, perfect standards of beauty don’t allow for that.  You’re not allowed to sweat!  [Laughs]

RHG:  Right.  You will chafe.  It will happen.  You’ll get that red bumpy ridge somewhere.

Sarah:  Yep.

RHG:  Diaper rash ointment.

Sarah:  Oh, that’s a good one.

RHG:  Yeah.

Sarah:  When my kids were babies, we used a product that was not very attractive in its color.  It was called Boudreaux’s Butt Paste but I –

RHG:  [Laughs]

Sarah:  – I will, I will swear by Boudreaux’s –

RHG:  Yeah.

Sarah:  – Butt Plate, Paste, because it is a thick, clingy, sort of grayish-brown ointment –

RHG:  Mm-hmm.

Sarah:  – but when there was bad diaper rash, especially when there was post-viral poo, which is, like, the worst poo ever –

RHG:  Aww.  Poor punkins.

Sarah:  – you just, (a) you put down towels and let the child just air out –

RHG:  Yep.

Sarah:  – and Boudreaux’s Butt Paste is a miracle worker.

RHG:  Yep.

Sarah:  But I would not recommend it, putting it on anywhere visible, ‘cause it’s not a very good-looking paste.

RHG:  Yeah.

Sarah:  But anyway, now that we’ve discussed – [laughs] – chafing and butt paste –

RHG:  Chafing and butt paste.

Sarah:  – let’s go back to historical undergarments!

[Laughter]

RHG:  Right, so, going back to Pennsic, or, I mean, the important thing to remember is that historical clothing is clothing.  It is designed to be lived in.  So when people are like, oh, God, I couldn’t possibly do anything while wearing all that fabric, I mean, yes, when I’m wearing full Roman I’m – four, ten – I’m wearing thirteen to fourteen yards of fabric, not much of which has been cut away?  ‘Cause it’s all rectangles.  And people are like, oh, God, I can’t do anything.  I’m like, I have helped set up a camp, I’ve put up tents, I’ve cooked feasts for 180 people.  I’ve bossed people around.  I’ve run around and carried messages up and down hills.  You can do stuff.  It’s just a matter of, like, figure, I mean, (1) learning how to manage whatever, whatever you’re wearing.  Like, you figured out how to manage wearing jeans, you can figure out this, I swear to God.

Sarah:  Right.

RHG:  And, yes, sometimes certain clothing is designed to show that you don’t have to work, like anything Anne Boleyn was wearing probably didn’t let her lift her arms much above her shoulders –

Sarah:  But she didn’t have to.

RHG:  – but she didn’t have to.  She had people for that, and that’s just, it’s another form of conspicuous consumption, which is always, it comes up in clothing, it comes up in food, it comes up in decoration and just, I have enough money that I can do all of these things.  Or not do.

Sarah:  I, I myself can be a decoration.

RHG:  Yes!

Sarah:  This, this is something I think about when I go shoe shopping.  Like, there are some shoes where I can sit in them.

RHG:  Mm-hmm.

Sarah:  And I could maybe stand for a few minutes, but there comes a point where I have reached an, a, a point of not, lack of shits given –

RHG:  Yep.

Sarah:  – where if I’m not comfortable, then I’m not doing it.

RHG:  Mm-hmm.

Sarah:  Like, fuck it.  I, I, I have this theory that as you age, you are given a fraction of the number of fucks on your give-a-fuck card –

RHG:  Yep.

Sarah:  – than you used to have, and as you age, you get, like, one for the whole year.  I’ve got, like –

RHG:  Yep.

Sarah:  – two for all of 2016, and –

RHG:  [Laughs]

Sarah:  – I’ve, I’m, I’m saving ‘em, ‘cause I give no fucks.  So, there was, there was a pair of shoes that I adored at Fluevog.  They had, like, little spines on the toe and then across the heel, and they looked like little dragons, and they were green –

RHG:  Mm-hmm.

Sarah:  – but they were four and a half inches.  Now I used to dance –

RHG:  Oh.

Sarah:  – en pointe.  I can tolerate foot pain, but if I’m dancing, I’m moving around, and I have lamb’s wool and a toe pad, and my shoes are broken in.

RHG:  Right.

Sarah:  Like, this was just going to be agony, and I thought, I don’t have a life wherein I’m going to wear shoes that I can’t walk around in.

RHG:  Yeah.

Sarah:  I cannot be decorative, although I love these shoes.  There’s just no, there’s no good reason for me to spend money on them, because when in my life am I going to sit and not do something while wearing shoes like this?

RHG:  Right.

Sarah:  That’s just not how I live at all.  So when you have, you know, some of these images of people, like, I, I have a feeling that in Hollywood, like, you walk the red carpet –

RHG:  Mm-hmm.

Sarah:  – and then you go find your seat and you sit down, and, like, everyone, in those tiny, tiny, little purses, they have, like, a very small pair of slippers.

RHG:  Mm-hmm.

Sarah:  [Laughs] At least that’s what I’d like to think, ‘cause all of that looks so painful.

RHG:  Right.  Right.  [Laughs] Well, you remember when Emma Thompson went and presented some award at the Golden Globes two years ago –

Sarah:  Oh, she carried her shoes!

RHG:  – she carried her shoes –

Sarah:  Like, these hurt.

RHG:  – and her booze –

Sarah:  Yeah.

RHG:  – and they were like, here’s the card for the, who, who won, and she’s like, fuck my shoes.

[Laughter]

RHG:  I’m saving the important thing, which is my drink.

Sarah:  Yeah, well, it’s the Golden Globes.  If you’re not drinking then you’re not really doing it right.

RHG:  You’re not, you’re not doing it right.

Sarah:  You’re not, you’re not celebrating the right way.

RHG:  Right.

Sarah:  [Laughs] But even now, we have i-, items of fashion that allow you to be a decoration more than a –

RHG:  Mm-hmm.

Sarah:  – than a, than able to function.

RHG:  Yeah.

Sarah:  But it was even more opulent in historical periods, which is one of the reasons why Claire is pictured wearing such enormous – it’s not a bustle when it’s on the side – panniers?

RHG:  Panniers.

Sarah:  Panniers, right.  Those, those, those are just, like –

RHG:  Oh, yeah, those are –

Sarah:  -you don’t, you don’t put things down on them.  I mean you could totally serve a buffet on one, but you, you, you, those are, those are decorative.  Those are showing off, look how much fabric I can afford.

RHG:  Right.  And since they’re hanging around in the court of the King of France in Versailles –

Sarah:  Everyone is decorative.

RHG:  Everyone is decorative, and if you’re not up to snuff, nobody is going to give you the time of day.

Sarah:  Which is a huge change from season one, because that was people who have to do things to survive –

RHG:  Mm-hmm.

Sarah:  – and then in the court, you have to do as little as possible to survive.

RHG:  Yeah.

Sarah:  It’s a complete inversion with a lot more fabric.

RHG:  Yeah, or, I mean, you’re doing stuff.

Sarah:  Right.

RHG:  It’s just, it’s very different stuff.  Very different, and it’s all politics.  Even beyond what Claire is wearing, there’s that one…sent.  Oh, come on!

Sarah:  Whoa!

RHG:  [Laughs]

Sarah:  I, I, I have a cabinet in my house that is as big –

RHG:  Mm-hmm.

Sarah:  – as those panniers.

RHG:  Mm-hmm.

Sarah:  And that’s 1750 –

RHG:  Yeah.

Sarah:  – or thereabouts, according to the URL.  [Whispers] Wow!  [Normal voice] That’s a lot of gold thread, too.

RHG:  It’s a lot of gold thread.  There are also, there’s, oh, yeah, this one’s –

Sarah:  She’s actually a cabinet.

RHG:  Mm-hmm.

Sarah:  This woman is legit, this is, I, gosh, I’d say that may be, like, two and a half to three feet of pannier on each side.  She’s square!  Wow.

RHG:  Yeah.  And that one’s hand-embroidered.

Sarah:  Good God.

RHG:  I mean, that is something you wear at court.

Sarah:  [Whispers] Wow.

RHG:  I mean, that’s called a mantua, and that, that term evolves for several, a couple of hundred years.

Sarah:  ‘Cause I’ve read in rom-, in historicals someone going to a mantua maker.

RHG:  Yeah.

Sarah:  That’s what they’re making?

RHG:  Not necessarily.

Sarah:  It’s like you’ve been turned into a table, and you need a tablecloth!

RHG:  Mantua was originally a loose gown –

Sarah:  Oh.

RHG:  – and, and it, it evolved over multiple –

Sarah:  Wow.

RHG:  – over, uh, words.  Words are hard.

[Laughter]

Sarah:  Oh, why must I word?

RHG:  Yes.  But that was sort of the, the, I mean, when a, a man- – mantua maker just means dressmaker in that sort of –

Sarah:  Right, of course.

RHG:  – and that term held on even after mantuas were not really what they were making?

Sarah:  Right.

RHG:  But these, there’s, I saw one in the Museum of London that’s just, it’s in a room by itself behind glass.

Sarah:  [Laughs]

RHG:  It’s gi-, I’m just, like, I can’t.  ‘Cause, like, even doors are not actually that wide.  You have to walk into a room sideways.

Sarah:  Oh, there’s no question.

RHG:  Yeah.

Sarah:  Unless you’ve got giant arches or a portico.

RHG:  Yeah.

Sarah:  I mean, this, this one that’s embroidered all over, I mean, she’s, this, this person’s a table.

RHG:  Mm-hmm.

Sarah:  Like, you could put, like, a boombox and, you know, some plates and glasses and some drinkware on the sides there.  I mean, she could just be her own buffet!

RHG:  Yeah.

Sarah:  Wow.  That’s, that’s just – so the, the panniers became a status thing, right?

RHG:  Oh, totally.

Sarah:  Like, how wide are my side panels?

RHG:  Yeah.  Yeah.

Sarah:  Good gravy.  And of course, I mean, how did they deconstruct so people could pee?  You just had to –

RHG:  You had people who probably, I’m guessing, you had somebody – either you didn’t –

Sarah:  Well, that’s why those ladies were in waiting.

RHG:  Yeah.  [Laughs]

Sarah:  They were waiting –

RHG:  Either you didn’t or you had somebody slide a –

Sarah:  – waiting for the signal.  [Laughs]

RHG:  – a chamber pot underneath.

Sarah:  And hope you squatted and aimed correctly.  [Laughs] Oh, God, how horrible.

RHG:  Yeah.

Sarah:  I’m sorry, people.  I really didn’t mean to go back to pee twice in the same episode.  My apologies.

[Laughter]

RHG:  It’ll probably happen again.  Don’t worry about it.

Sarah:  Yeah, it, it’s true.  Oh, my goodness.

RHG:  Yeah, and –

Sarah:  So, of the pictures from Outlander, which I need you to send me, oh, my gosh –

RHG:  Yeah.

Sarah:  – of the pictures from Outlander, is there anything where you’re like, okay, kind, kind, it’s not my time, but I kind of want to make that?

RHG:  I really want to make the red one.

[Laughter]

Sarah:  So you want to make the red one.

RHG:  I want to make the red one.  My boobs could totally pull that off.

Sarah:  Yeah, but panniers.  I mean, I feel like if we brought back panniers –

RHG:  Mm-hmm.

Sarah:  – and took the current contemporary style, we could make them significant useful.  Like, they could be a wireless charging station.

RHG:  Oh, definitely!  Also, wearing panniers on the subway –

Sarah:  Oh, no one’s near you!

RHG:  It would end manspreading as we know it.

Sarah:  And no one would get close enough to be groping you on a crowded car.

RHG:  That’s right.

Sarah:  I really think that we need to bring back panniers.  I mean, I’m just –

RHG:  Yeah.

Sarah:  – just thinking of all of the stuff I carry around on a daily basis, even if I’m just carrying my wallet and my phone?  Like, I have a little side compartment, wallet, phone, done.  Charger, snacks, water bottle, dog bags for when I walk the dogs.  I mean, panniers could be, it could be like saddle bags with fashion.

RHG:  Yeah.

Sarah:  Like, you could do a lot with that.

RHG:  Mm-hmm.

Sarah:  Are there any other things in historical fashion you wish you could bring back?

RHG:  Oh – [sighs]

Sarah:  Like, I would be down with togas and draped clothing.

RHG:  Oh, togas are a pain in the ass.  Togas – [laughs] – they’re an absolute pain in the ass, and you can’t actually move too much with them.

Sarah:  Nah, screw it then.

RHG:  Yeah, and –

Sarah:  So what would you bring back?

RHG:  What would I bring back?  I mean, a lot of the eShakti dresses that I wear are sort of 1950s vintage inspired, but with pockets.

Sarah:  Oh, pockets.

RHG:  With pockets.

Sarah:  Did you ever notice how many more fashion photos of people at red carpets and events are posing with their hands in their pockets?

RHG:  Yep.

Sarah:  And I’m like, yeah, I, the fact that that has pockets makes me, like –

RHG:  Yes.

Sarah:  – 85% more interested in knowing what, what designer that is.  [Laughs]

RHG:  Yes.  And, like, 80% of the time, when someone’s like, oh, my God, that dress is really cute, and I’m like, thanks!  It has pockets!  And they’re like, no shit!

Sarah:  [Gasps] Oh, my gosh!

RHG:  No shit!  Where’s it from?

Sarah:  Like, it’s good looking and useful?  Those –

RHG:  And useful, and also custom fit.

Sarah:  That happens?

RHG:  eShakti, people, seriously.

Sarah:  Oh, eShakti is amazing.  I think all of you now have eShakti dresses.

RHG:  Yeah.

Sarah:  I think I need one now.

RHG:  You don’t have one yet?!

Sarah:  No, I do not.

RHG:  Sarah!

Sarah:  Well, when you were all shopping, I was on a period of do-not-spend-money, ‘cause we were about to start, you know, moving, so, you know, you would post sales, and I’d be like, no!  Must resist!

RHG:  Okay.  The next sale –

Sarah:  So the next time there’s an eShakti sale, I, I –

RHG:  There’s a sale now.

Sarah:  Oh, fuck, really?

RHG:  Yeah.  You need to have at least one for RT.

Sarah:  Yes, ma’am.  [Laughs] I’m not very much a dress person, but I’ll do my best.

RHG:  Well, they also make pants now, and tops.

Sarah:  Oh, geeze.  So if someone is interested in learning more about historical fashion or has, you know, wants to learn more about the whole idea of how people dressed in history, are there particular museums or places to go and look at clothing online that you recommend?  Like, let’s send people down a six-hour rabbit hole –

RHG:  Right.

Sarah:  – of historical clothing pictures, and then we’ll get really angry email.  I was on the computer –

RHG:  [Laughs]

Sarah:  – until 4 a.m.!  And we’ll be like, yeah –

RHG:  Yeah.

Sarah:  – that was the goal.

RHG:  Sorry not sorry.

[Laughter]

RHG:  For extant clothing, clothing that still exists – and it sort of peters out around the 1700s just because fabric is ephemeral and does disintegrate – there’s the Victoria and Albert, and their costume institute is just, like, oh, my God.

Sarah:  You want to go hang out there for a while?

RHG:  You, you want to go hang out there for a while.  They also have a lot of remnants of textiles from way earlier.  I spent a very enjoyable couple of hours going through their Byzantine collection.

Sarah:  Ohhh.

RHG:  Yeah.  Yeah.  The, they just, it’s such a stuff museum, and they have so much stuff out on display that you can dig through it as much as you, your heart desires.  I love stuff museums.

Sarah:  Oh, that’s cool.

RHG:  Yes.  The Met Museum’s costume pages are insane and massive.

Sarah:  Oh, gosh, yes.

RHG:  The MF –

Sarah:  It’s horrible, ‘cause that section of the museum is, like, down in the corner, down some steps –

RHG:  It’s down in the corner, and they, I mean, they do constantly rotate it.

Sarah:  Yeah, but you, it’s easy to miss it.

RHG:  Yeah, but they have so much stuff online and displayed.  I’ll, I’ll send you a link to my favorite, favorite, favorite dress.

Sarah:  Yes, please!

RHG:  And that’s a Lord’s of London, it’s not even a Worth, but it’s just so pretty.  The MFA has some, and it’s okay.  A good Tumblr is OMG That Dress!, and she is constantly posting stuff.  She does sort of cycle through, ‘cause she’s posting multiple things every day –

Sarah:  Of course.

RHG:  – but she has tags sorted out by century and decade.

Sarah:  Good tagging is an art that I do not –

RHG:  Yeah.

Sarah:  – have that skill.

RHG:  No, I just like funny tags.

Sarah:  [Laughs] I liked yours in Carrie’s joint review:  these tags are biased!

RHG:  Right!  [Laughs]

Sarah:  These are very biased tags.  You should be aware.

RHG:  Yep.  I was proud of those.

Sarah:  [Laughs]

RHG:  I’m also proud of Sarah let me loose in the tags.  [Laughs]

Sarah:  Yes, I’ve, I’ve seen that one a couple of times.  You have tagging control.  Woohoo!  [Laughs]

RHG:  So, yeah, that’s kind of where I’d start, and go from there.  There’s also the Kyoto design institute.

Sarah:  Ooh.

RHG:  I think that’s what it’s called, or the Kyoto Costume Institute?  They have, they have a number of really shiny, shiny, shiny, so many shiny things.

Sarah:  And because clothing degrades and fabric degrades, the fact that we have some things preserved is pretty impressive.

RHG:  Yeah.  Yeah.  I, when, when you’re looking at, like, medieval clothing and trying to figure out how it was made, and you’re working from paintings – there are occasionally bog finds of burials in bogs that were preserved, mostly by accident –

Sarah:  Right.

RHG:  – and you can sort of guess from there, but it’s hard to make any sort of blanket statement based on this one thing.  Like, we have a whole bunch of tunics that were found in Greenland, and some people are like, yes, this is totally how these tunics were made all over!  Which is like, no, it’s not.

Sarah:  No, not everybody had the same thing.

RHG:  You can’t do that.

Sarah:  [Laughs]

RHG:  You can’t do that; don’t do that.  Clothing’s fun!  Costuming is fun.  Fabric is fun, and the best part about, about sewing is that if you screw it up – I mean, there are plenty of times where I have been like, okay, I’ve messed up the same seam four times in a row.  I’m going to throw this in a corner, it can think about what it did, and I’m going to go –

Sarah:  [Laughs]

RHG:  – take a walk.  Like, knowing at what point you need to stop for the day is this –

Sarah:  And then you come back, and it’s like, boom!  Easy.

RHG:  Yeah, exactly.  But knowing at what point you need to stop is a hard-won skill.

Sarah:  Yep.

RHG:  And, like, no, no!  I had it on the schedule that I was going to get all of this done!  And it’s like, no, that is clearly not happening.

Sarah:  [Laughs]

RHG:  It’s clearly not happening.  You need to go get a drink and eat a brownie.

Sarah:  Yeah.  [Laughs] Self reward in times of defeat and struggle!

RHG:  Yeah.  I mean, I, I finally matured enough that I can realize that I’ve gotten to that point before I start crying?

[Laughter]

RHG:  That has not been, always been true.

Sarah:  Yes, of course.  So, one more show I want to ask you about.

RHG:  Yeah.

Sarah:  Vikings.

RHG:  Oh, Vikings.  I’ve only seen the first two seasons.  I do, I enjoy it.  It’s ridiculous.

Sarah:  [Laughs]

RHG:  And sort of the question of what Vikings wore is one of those things – we, we have fabric scrap examples –

Sarah:  Right.

RHG:  – and knowledge in the way of pictures, so I don’t actually know where the, the idea of the traditional Viking apron dress really came from?

Sarah:  Right.

RHG:  Perhaps from carving – I’m not sure, ‘cause, again, not really my, my thing.

Sarah:  Right.

RHG:  I know what people in the SCA wear and what the, sort of the standard SCA interpretation is, and Vikings, the show sort of takes that general concept and kicks it up several notches, but certainly at the time of the show there was plenty of trading and raiding between Scandinavia and the, Great Britain –

Sarah:  Yeah.

RHG:  – and France and Normandy, and getting all the way down into Istanbul –

Sarah:  Right.

RHG:  – and Constantinople, so there’s all sorts of things and spices.  Spices, this comes up in food a lot, where there was enough interaction and, like, you see in Scandinavian design what’s called rosemaling, which involves a lot of acanthus leaves.

Sarah:  Oh!

RHG:  Which comes directly from the Viking trading hitting Greece and Turkey and those areas.

Sarah:  Well, that’s cool.

RHG:  Yeah, and I just discovered through the We Love Period Drama Tumblr a Turkish show that’s called Magnificent Century – I mean, the actual title’s in Turkish, but I don’t even know how to pronounce those letters – but it’s about Suleyman the Magnificent and the, all sorts – it’s a soap opera of, you know the drama of the women in the harem.

Sarah:  Ooh!

RHG:  And the costuming is so shiny and so pretty.  No idea how accurate it is.

Sarah:  [Laughs]

RHG:  Probably not very, but it’s so shiny and so pretty, and it’s a total – I watched the first episode.  There’re, like, two million episodes, and they’re all two hours long.

Sarah:  Oh, so that’s, like, a never-ending supply –

RHG:  It’s a commitment!  Right.

Sarah:  – of costume porn for you.

RHG:  Yes, and –

Sarah:  Yay!

RHG:  – it’s all, it’s on YouTube, and it’s subtitled in English, so not only is it a commitment, it’s a commitment that you actually have to watch.

Sarah:  Yes.

RHG:  You can’t just sort of, like – so it’s going to take me a long time to work my way through that, and there’s also a follow-up series on another, another sultana of the Ottoman Empire.  [Laughs]

Sarah:  Oh, darn.

RHG:  Darn!

Sarah:  Darn.

RHG:  Life is so hard.

Sarah:  Do you have a, a fashion porn comfort, comfort watch, or a costume porn comfort watch?

RHG:  I, I will go back to The Tudors if I want to.

Sarah:  Yeah?

RHG:  If I feel like it.  I will go back to Rome.  [Coughs] Excuse me.  The Borgias is also very shiny and very pretty and Italian Renaissance, and The Borgias has Jeremy Irons –

Sarah:  Oh, very nice.

RHG:  – chewing all the scenery –

Sarah:  That’s kind of what he does.

RHG:  – and Holliday Grainger, who, you know, you may remember from The Finest Hours review –

Sarah:  Yes.

RHG:  – as Lucrezia, and all sorts of shiny people.  The Musketeers on BBC America?

Sarah:  Oh?

RHG:  Yep.  They’re – [laughs] also, costuming not accurate?

Sarah:  Eh.

RHG:  Lots of exposed stays, especially on the, the part of Constance, but, you know, pretty boys, and Porthos is the best in all, all incarnations of the Musketeers, all the times.

Sarah:  Pretty much.

RHG:  All the times.

Sarah:  Have you seen Dangerous Beauty?

RHG:  Oh, my God, I love that movie.

Sarah:  I love that movie, and not enough people know about it.  I adore that movie, and I have given my DVD to people to watch when they go on a trip.  I’m like, no, you need to watch this.  It’s gorgeous!

RHG:  It’s gorgeous.  It’s so pretty!

Sarah:  It’s so beautiful, and it’s also surprisingly female-centered?

RHG:  Mm-hmm.

Sarah:  Like, she outwits a bunch of men over and over –

RHG:  Yep.

Sarah:  – and it’s pretty fab.

RHG:  And –

Sarah:  I do like that movie.

RHG:  – and a fine example of female friendship, too.

Sarah:  Oh, yes.  Especially across class lines.

[music]

Sarah:  And that is all for this episode.  I hope you enjoyed our discussion of costumes and historical clothing.  I will have links to everything we discussed, and I know it was a lot of things, but everything will be in the entry at smartbitchestrashybooks.com, and I want to thank RedHeadedGirl for not only doing the interview but also sending me a lot of links to things that cost me, like, nine hours of my time.

The music you’re listening to was provided by Sassy Outwater.  You can find her on Twitter @SassyOutwater.  This band is called Sketch.  This is “Shed Life” from their album by the same name.  You can find it on Amazon, iTunes, or wherever you buy your fine music.

And this podcast was sponsored by you, because you are awesome, and we want to say thank you for listening.  If you’ve been tuning in or you’ve just discovered us or you’re going through the backlog, we think you’re awesome, and every time I get an email or a tweet or a message from someone who’s enjoyed the podcast, it completely makes my day, so thank you so much for listening.

And on behalf of RedHeadedGirl and myself and all the fine costuming people in the world, we wish you the very best of reading.  Have a great weekend.

[calming, then exciting music]