This week, Sarah chats with writer Kelly Faircloth from Jezebel, who has authored several kicking articles about the romance genre. They discuss writing about romance from a journalism perspective, the purposes of sexuality in romance, the shame visited upon romance readers, and the history of some of Kelly’s articles, as well as the cool research.
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Here are the books we discuss in this podcast:
And here are links to Kelly’s longform articles on Pictorial:
How Harlequin Became the Most Famous Name in Romance
How Romance Novelists Got such a Silly, Sappy Rap
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Transcript
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[music]
Sarah Wendell: Hello, and welcome to episode number 154 – whoa! – of the DBSA podcast. I’m Sarah Wendell from Smart Bitches, Trashy Books, and with me this week is Kelly Faircloth from Jezebel. If you’re on the internet, and I presume that you are, and you read things about the romance industry, which I presume that you do, you may have seen two of her recent long-form essays, along with a bunch of short, awesome essays, about the romance genre. One was a long history of Harlequin and how Harlequin became the shorthand name to refer to the entire genre, and a more recent one was about romance writers get “a silly, sappy rap.” They’re both excellent, so I asked her if she would please tell me all about how she came to research these pieces and where they came from and what the reception has been, and as a romance fan talking to another romance fan, we of course talked about really important things, like sexuality in romance and how Harlequin advertised their novels inside Kotex pads, or maybe laundry detergent, or both.
This podcast is brought to you by InterMix, publisher of As Lost as I Get, the highly anticipated sequel to Lisa Nicholas’ first sexy romantic suspense novel, The Farther I Fall, available everywhere eBooks are sold on August 18th.
And this month we have a podcast transcript sponsor. If you prefer to read rather than listen, you can thank garlicknitter for our fine, handcrafted transcripts, and the transcripts are being sponsored by Wattpad, a community of over forty million people from around the world, reading, writing, and connecting over stories. Whatever you’re into, there’s a story you’ll love on Wattpad, maybe one of the more popular stories right now, Omerta by Katarina Tonks. You can join today and find your own happily ever after at Wattpad.
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And now, without any other delay, on with the podcast!
[music]
Sarah: All right, so let’s do this, ‘cause I am so excited to talk to you, you have no idea.
Kelly Faircloth: [Laughs]
Sarah: This is going to be so – I mean, it’s not like I haven’t talked to you before, but I’m like, this is going to be so fun! So, you know, no pressure. There’s only, like, three or four questions that involve math. So, would you please introduce yourself and tell the lovely people who are listening what awesome things that you do.
Kelly: So, my name is Kelly Faircloth, and I write for Jezebel. I, I sort of handle a lot of the stuff on our history subsite, Pictorial, and I also write a lot about romance novels – [laughs] – because –
Sarah: Yes, we, we’ve noticed.
Kelly: Yeah, yeah, it’s fun, ‘cause it, it ends up sort of being a, you know, a fun way into that particular topic, you know, if, if you sort of, you know, you do a lot of, like, writing about history and stuff. It, it’s a real fun angle on the topic of romance, I think.
Sarah: Yeah, for romance fans, it’s a little weird to see actual journalism practiced about the genre?
Kelly: [Laughs]
Sarah: We’re a little freaked out by you. We’re, we’re a little weirded out, but then you post something and it’s like, this is the greatest thing ever! Like your long-form history of Harlequin and why everyone refers to romances as Harlequin, and then the recent piece where you talked about why romance writers have such a crappy rep and have to deal with so much stigma. What made you choose those, those two topics?
Kelly: Well, it’s actually, it’s, it’s actually kind of funny how, it sort of started with the, I guess a good place to start is kind of, you know, the Harlequin piece, and, you know, I’d been wanting to, just to write something, I’d been wanting to start tackling sort of the subject of, of romance in, in my writing more often, ‘cause I thought that there was a lot there to write about, that people, like, you know, like you said, a lot of times people don’t write about it, and, and, and they, you know, they, or they don’t take it seriously or, you know, ‘cause, ‘cause part of what kind of got me on the, the topic generally is, you know, it’s this corner of pop culture that is, is very big, and there’s a lot of activity, and there’re a lot of really devoted fans and, you know, a lot of, like, you know, companies have big businesses in, in, in the genre, and, you know, I sort of, I felt like, and, and I felt like there was sort of, sort of something that was going on there that was interesting that, that nobody was writing about, and I felt like it was especially interesting in contrast to, comic books get written about a lot, and they get written about very seriously, and there’s sort of a cultural consensus that there’s something that, that’s, that there’re good stories being told there, and it’s interesting, and, you know, a lot of that is driven by huge blockbuster movies, but, like, people sort of, you know, people sort of have a, a, a different approach to that, or, or like the way, you know, like, Game of Thrones gets written about very seriously by a lot of people and, you know, companies that, that do, like, you know, long essays about, like, international politics, they’ll write about Game of Thrones in kind of a fun way. Well, they’ll, you know, they’ll write about, like, what’re the economics of the world of Game of Thrones and, and, you know, and, and, like, what are the political choices being made in Game of Thrones, and, and, you know, I love Game of Thrones, but, like, I don’t necessarily see it as being intrinsically more serious than, than, you know, popular romance novels? [Laughs] So I felt like, you know, there were a lot of places where people were sort of writing, you know, in an entertaining and interesting way about other genre stuff, and, and there was nobody doing it about romance, and, I mean, that’s, like, one of the main things I read. I read, I read nonfiction history, and I read, I read romance novels, and I think part of the reason that, that a lot of the coverage is sort of, you know, uninformed is because peop-, people who’ve gone into journalism, a lot of time they read, like, science fiction or fantasy. A lot of them don’t, you know, aren’t as familiar with the romance genre, so, you know, they’re so, there’s, like, nobody who sort of has, you know, people don’t necessarily have the, the passion for it, and I think it requires a certain level of passion to write about it in a, in a way that’s informed, ‘cause there’s so much, there’s just so much romance out there, so you kind of have to have done some reading on it. So I went to my editor and, and I was like, you know, I want to do something on this, and I sort of thought, like, maybe I’ll start going subgenre by subgenre, because, you know, the, it, it’s sort of an interesting way to look at it. Like, you know, sort of the secretary-boss comes up at the same time as, like, women are getting into the workplace in the ‘80s, and, you know, Gothics are around in the ‘50s and ‘60s and, when, you know, the condition of women is very different and, you know, I thought about maybe that would be an interesting way into the topic, but I, I started writing these Outlander recaps, and one of the things that people would, would comment is, they’d be like, I don’t understand why this is any different from a Harlequin romance novel, and everybody knows that term, and I was like, well, Harlequin doesn’t do, like, traditionally, Harlequin has not done historical romance. I mean, they published some, but, like, condi-, like, they, like, the stereotypical Harlequin romance novel is a category romance, and it’s contemporary, and I realized that, basically, everybody knows this term, and nobody knows what the company actually does. So, it’s, it’s ubiquitous; like, every-, you know, hugely, you know, hugely popular, hugely well-known – nobody knows, like, like, not nobody, I mean, obviously readers know what it is, but there’s a big information gap between, you know, what people know about it and what is actually happening there, so I actually kind of realized before I could write anything else about it, I kind of had to, like, you know, explain the wheel to everyone before I got into the finer points of mechanical engineering?
Sarah: [Laughs]
Kelly: So – [laughs] – that’s kind of how that Harlequin piece happened is, you know, I, I, I basically realized I couldn’t, I couldn’t get into any of the deeper, like, any of the other stuff I wanted to talk about without just having a very basic, like, explainer for, like, like, please don’t call, like, please don’t, please stop conflating, like, the entire genre with one admittedly very important company, but, like, that is not, like, they do such a specific thing, and –
Sarah: Yes.
Kelly: – nobody knows that, you know? [Laughs]
Sarah: Even, even the article this past week in Newsweek about For Such a Time by Kate Breslin, the image at the top of the article was of Harlequin, and Harlequin has nothing to do with that book! Bethany House is not a subsidiary of Harlequin, and I, and I asked the, the, the reporter about that, and he said, well, that was the only image in the Reuters database that was tagged as a romance genre.
Kelly: Yeah.
Sarah: [Laughs] And I was like, well, that kind of proved Kelly’s point.
Kelly: [Laughs] I mean, it does, it, it is interesting. It’s very interesting writing about it, ‘cause, like, I, I, you know, I, I started, you know, I was going to work on this Harlequin thing, and it was, it was actually really fun to write about, but it was an actual, it was, it was rewarding, but it was challenging because, you know, you go to write about mystery, and there’re all these, you know, I feel like there’s just been a lot more, like, books about books about, on, on the genre, you know? Like, there’s a lot more sort of cultural awareness of it, and –
Sarah: Yep.
Kelly: – people have done all these, you know, people, people have done all, all, all this writing about it and all these essays about it and just, and, you know, and, and there’s just so much research that’s been done, whereas Harlequin, like, I was actually, like, sort of shocked at how few histories of the company there are, and, like, a lot of them are out of print. Honestly, I, I actually sympathize with people who are sort of, like, you know, beat reporters who are assigned to write about a story that’s happening or, like, like when, you know, the HarperCol-, like, when HarperCollins acquired Harlequin. I, I mean, I actually do kind of, like, sympathize with people who, you know, they’re, like, assigned to write something about this big publishing story, but they know nothing about the genre, and, like, you know, they end up falling back on these stereotypes because, like, it actually is very hard to, you know, to, like, to, to Google up, like, you know, what’s the deal with Harlequin romance? and get a good explanation of it, and that’s part of why, you know, I wrote that long article is ‘cause it’s this, it’s this incredibly fascinating business story, and, you know, there’s just not a lot of, you know, in, like, people’s, there’s just not a lot out there on it, sort of gets at the sort of a, you know, the ins and outs of the, you know, the, the company’s history.
Sarah: You also outlined how Harlequin’s attempts to sell its books through the, through the sale of products, like, it closely aligned itself with grocery products, that, that that contributed to its reputation. How did you find those advertisements?
Kelly: So, that was, that was one of my favorite, like, things that I, like, I was fascinated by –
Sarah: That was so fascinating! So fascinating!
Kelly: And I wish I, I so, that, that I could find more, like, visual, visual stuff about that. It was a specific book. It was, the best book on that was Love’s $weet Return, which is this – let me get the author’s name –
Sarah: Don’t sweat it; I can look it up.
Kelly: It’s, it’s sort of an academic, sort of, like, you know, sort of one of those, like, you know, ‘80s women’s studies type of, of, you know, studies of the genre, but she actually does, like, a pretty good – I believe the, the author’s name is Jensen – she does a pretty good, you know, she, she, she was, like, clearly interested in sort of the, you know, the marketing and, and, and all of that, so she, you know, has this, like, long, amazing list of all the different ways they advertised their products, and they were putting ‘em in, like, you know, in, in McDonald’s hap-, like, McDonald’s meals and Hefty grocery bags and Kotex packaging and just, you know, all these, like, fascinating ways that the company was using to reach, you know, the, you know, their, like, who they were envisioning as their, like, stereotypical customer, which was, that was one of the most frustrating things about the article, actually, was because they’re, clearly, like, they have this huge, you know, history of, of doing these, like, you know, marketing attempts, but it’s actually very hard to find pictures or visuals or, you know. I mean, that was sort of my dream, where I kept, like, stalking eBay hoping that if I, if I looked long enough, somebody would put one of those, like, you know, Kotex packages containing a Harlequin romance –
Sarah: Oh, my God!
[Laughter]
Kelly: Unfortunately, that didn’t happen, but one of the ways I kind of tried to, you know, like, find visual stuff from it is, you know, I was, like, looking for women’s magazines, ‘cause, you know, when there was sort of the big showdown between Silhouette and Harlequin in the ‘80s, you know, they really were investing money, like, just going head-to-head advertisement-wise in places like McCall’s and Ladies Home Journal, and so, you know, if, if I looked hard enough I could sometimes find, there was one that was like a, there was, like, a Delta tickets giveaway, it was, like, a vacation giveaway. You know, like, they were doing, like, the, the Harlequin Classics library –
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Kelly: – and so there was a, there was a, they would do just the advert-, you know, the, the sweepstakes giveaway design on the front cover, and there was one, I think it might have been for, like, cigarettes or something, you know, so you just sort of find this stuff, but, like, I wanted to find so much more of it than I could, ‘cause I just think it’s fascinating, but if people have held onto the books that they love, like, people have held on to their keepers, but it’s actually, you know, I was kind of having trouble finding, you know, the actual, some of the, like, actual advertisements and, and, and, you know, and, like, you know, marketing materials because –
Sarah: Right.
Kelly: – you know, people don’t, people don’t hang on to a, you know, a, a Kotex package from, like, 1982 – [laughs] – you know, they –
Sarah: And why not?
Kelly: – or, like, 1972. [Laughs] So disappointing.
Sarah: So, what are some other funky things that you learned during your research, either for Harlequin or any other pieces that you’ve written about romance? Like, what are some things that you’re like, you guys would not believe this cool-ass shit I’ve learned?
Kelly: Well, my favorite thing that I learned was Anne Hampson, I sort of want to research her a little bit more over time, ‘cause she seemed like an interesting, an interesting person in a lot of ways, but one of the things I learned about her is that, so, one of, one of the books I read was, was Windward Que-, Cr-, Windward Crest, which is a book she wrote about, it was, like, one of those, like, Caribbean cr-, like, English girl on a Caribbean cruise falls in love with a local man who lives in the Caribbean who is, you know, very romantic, of course, and very wealthy, and she, you know, obviously made a fortune writing Mills & Boons, and she built herself a huge nice house, and she named it Windward Crest, which is one of my favorite, like, stories about sort of, like, you know, ladies, like, you know, like, ladies building, you know, lives for themselves with, you know, with, with these, you know, just writing Mills & Boons and writing Harlequins. I mean, I think that’s, that’s, like, that’s exact-, you know, that’s exactly what I’d do if I made a huge fortune writing these books is I would, you know, build a huge house and, like, slap the name of one of my titles on it, which I just, I just love that.
Sarah: Hell, yeah!
Kelly: [Laughs] Right? Like, you know, come at me, people who weren’t, who, who, like, didn’t like the idea of my, you know, my, my category romance career. You know, all the marketing stuff was my, was, was definitely one of my favorite things, ‘cause it’s just such an interesting way, you know, like, all the, I actually really love all the stuff about the business itself because, you know, you know, my, my taste in romances is more modern than that. You know, it’s, it’s, like, it’s hard reading the stuff from the late ‘70s and the early ‘80s, like, ‘cause it’s pre-, you know, it, it just doesn’t have the same, you know – a good one is still a good one, but a lot of times the, sort of the mid-, you know, the middle-ground ones and the ones that aren’t as good are, are, you know, they’re, they’re tough going.
Sarah: And, and they’re extra painful in some ways.
Kelly: Yeah, ‘cause you can, like, sort of see the modern romance starting to emerge, but, you know, there’s just the, like, the, the dynamics are just very, you know, ver-, very difficult to read sometimes. But, you know, the, but just the way, you know, the way they were so dedicated to, like, getting their books in the hands of their readers and the way there’s, sometimes there’s almost like a tension between, between the company and the, and the writers and the readers?
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Kelly: Writers in England at Mills & Boon are sort of doing things that are more, you know, like, racier and, you know, they’re sort of pushing the limits and, you know, they’re thinking in terms of, like, you know, they’re, like, sort of developing these tropes, and they’re, you know, developing the genre and, you know, readers are saying, oh, we want more of this and we want more of that or, like, you know, we’re reading, like, the Kathleen Woodiwiss and, you know, we want more explicit stuff, and, and then you’ve kind of some, in some ways got, like, all these, you know, these, these, these guys at the top who are, who, you know, do sort of visualize it as this more like consumer packaged-goods style product? And I, I, you know, and I, I think that, you know, some of the tensions there were, are very interesting. In the early history of the business, it is very much like everybody is sort of in the, in the, you know, in the C suites is like, you know, it is, it is still like, the business end is, is, is, a lot of it is, is, it’s men, you know?
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Kelly: But have, like, sort of, you know, women, like, you know, seizing their business for their own purposes in a lot of ways? To, you know, either to, like, make money or to, like, get the entertainment they want and, you know, it’s a very, like, it’s a much more, like, you know, assertive and empowered group of readers and writers than I, than people, you know, than people would necessarily give it credit for, ‘cause I think there’s this, there’s this sort of cultural narrative. I mean, you know, you know, one of the commenters, when I, you know, when I did that piece were, like, sort of referred to it as, as, was talking about, like, it, it’s like you have industrial fiction, and you know, basically, I think there’s this, there’s this, people have this vision of, you know, Harlequins just sort of being, like, stamped out on an assembly line, and –
Sarah: Yes, they are all the same, they’re all churned out, someone’s at the world’s largest mimeograph machine turning the crank.
Kelly: Which seems just, it’s, it so does not match with, like, the actual experience of reading them, because, you know, of course we know that there’s a gazillion subgenres. I mean, and that’s, like, all these tropes that get combined in all of these, like, you know, all these complicated and, and fascinating ways, so, you know, and, and, and it’s not like Harl-, you know, and, and people, you know, sort of always talk about, like, the, you know, the, the, like – [laughs] – the outlines where, you know, on page seventy-two they’re going to do this and, you know. I, if somebody has one of those outlines, please email it to me, because I would love to look at it.
Sarah: [Laughs]
Kelly: Obviously, you know, there’s certain, like, genre conventions and, and when you get to the category lines, I mean, they do have very specific expectations about, like, what constitutes a Harlequin Presents. I mean, I don’t think there’s any argument about that, but I think there’s just so much more, like, pushback from, you know, writers want to try this and, you know, the editors are like, well, you know, maybe we can try this third option, and meanwhile, readers are saying, well, you know, all we want is this; please give us more of this, and you know, it’s just not, like, you know, dispatches from the mothership where people just, like – it’s not this, like, one-directional relationship where, like, Harlequin is just, like, you know, like you said, mimeographing everything and people are just, like, gobbling down, you know. It’s, that, I just don’t think that’s how, you know, that’s not how it works, and people, that’s, but that’s a very real misconception.
Sarah: It’s very true. With the reading that you’ve done about the genre, is there anything that you were surprised to learn that affected how you view the books that you read? Is there anything that you learned that made you think, whoa! I’m going to look at romances a little differently now!
Kelly: The way sort of they, they hash out the presence of sex in the books really actually was very interesting to me, because I’ve always been kind of a historical fan, and I’ve read a lot of contemporaries, but I, like, came up very much reading the, you know, like, I was definitely, like, a, you know, somebody who was brought in basically by reading Lisa Kleypas.
Sarah: That’s really not a bad way to go in.
Kelly: It’s, it was a really good introduction. Like, she would, like, that was the first, you know, the first author that I was, like, as opposed to, like, you know, buying them for, buying books for fifty cents at the Friends of the Library’s used bookstore sale or stealing them from my mother under the cover of night, like, that was the first, like, really, you know, that was where I was, you know, spending my own money and, and buying them at Barnes & Noble and being like, this is where I want to go, and this is what I want to read, but, you know, I, I had a certain narrative in my head about, like, when sex enters romances and how explicit it is and what the consent dynamics are, and it actually was really interesting watch-, watching it be hashed out because, you know, I, I found Kathleen Woodiwiss’s Shanna when I was, like, thirteen, and I couldn’t read it. I had to put it down, because, I mean, I, I haven’t picked it back up since, so I might be misremembering it, but basically there was something that happened that, like, even as, like, a fourteen-year-old, I was like, this, I’m not comfortable with this. This is not – I can’t find this romantic. You know, I go back, and I’m sort of doing this research on category romances to see when sex enters, because that’s the other thing that people often misunderstand about Harlequins is, like, how long it takes for them to get sexy. I mean, and, you know, the readers experience, like, the, you know, the, the Violet Winspear ones as being sexy, but there’s no, like, you know, no dicks on the page.
[Laughter]
Sarah: Dicks on the page.
Kelly: Part of what forces contempor-, like, American tempor-, contemporary romance to get more, you know, explicit, it is, it is, you know, the, the, you know, the Woodiwiss books and the, you know, Rosemary Rogers and the, you know, these “bodice rippers” that, you know, I always had a more complicated relationship with as a reader. You know, it was interesting to sort of see that as kind of a, you know, an important turning point where it’s very hard, like, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s difficult to read some of those books as a modern reader and enjoy them because, you know, it’s just hard to, it’s just, it’s just hard to, you know, get your head into the head space where that felt empowering, but, I mean, it was, but it was interesting to look at it in its historical context, and it, it, you know, it made me view the development of the, the genre differently.
Sarah: The, the idea of sex in romance really, I think, is part of the reason that it is so often maligned, because culturally, especially in the U.S., we’re okay with death and violence. We like lots of different permutations of death and violence. We like cozy mysteries, we like violent mysteries, we like thrillers, we like true crime, which is like blending nonfiction and crime, and into this great, pulpy, wonderful thing, so we’re, we’re all good with, you know, death, but sex and emotions, no, no, no, that’s just terrible. That’s just stupid stuff; we shouldn’t deal with that at all. So when you add the sex and the emotion, it, it immediately – plus, you know, the fact that it’s written and enjoyed by women – it, it’s automatically going to be dismissed.
Kelly: Well, like, it’s, it’s, it’s hard to talk about sex without people turning into a bunch of giggling third graders. I mean, I guess –
Sarah: I know.
Kelly: [Laughs] It’s, and, and I think that, like, you know, sort of the genre doesn’t get enough credit for the fact that it, you know, it is kind, like, it is sort of, it’s, it’s thinking in an interesting way about, about sex and, and, and about, like, you know, the relationship between sex and feelings and, you know, and all this sort of stuff and, and, you know, and people, you know, people who, who, who write these books just, like, you know, they’ve, they’ve clearly done, like, a, you know, a fair bit of thinking about it, you know? [Laughs] It, what’s interesting to me about it is how complicated the, the, like, sort of the dance that’s happening between fantasy and reality is?
Sarah: Yep.
Kelly: You want to, like, represent genuine conflicts, but you also want to, you know, end when it’s like, a ha-, like a goal or a dream situation, you know, not an unrealistic situation. It’s very interesting what sort of, the, the negotiation that’s happening between sort of, like, you know, what do we want and, you know, how can we get what we want and, like, what is it realistic to want, and, and, I don’t know, I think that part of what’s interesting about it is, you know, romance writers end up saying that, yes, it is genuinely realistic to want good sex, which – [laughs] – you know, I, I think that’s probably a good narrative to have?
[Laughter]
Kelly: Because there’s this sort of common idea, a lot of times people think it is a lot easier to, like, good, healthy, adult relationships and, and satisfying sexual relationships are a lot easier than people, you know, think they are? Like, people, people are like, you know, this is, this is a common, you know, a common rejoinder is like, you know, why don’t people just communicate? And it’s oh, okay, oh, okay, wow, gee, what a great solution. Like, why didn’t I think of just, like, talking it through?
Sarah: [Laughs]
Kelly: But, like, you know, it’s, it’s like the, you know, the, the factor of the matter is is that, you know, like, a lot of our lives are spent sort of, are spent communicating but, like, communicating is not always easy, and these novels kind of speak to the fact that this stuff is hard and, you know, and, and it’s also, people tend to think that, like, because we sort of live sort of post sexual revolution that it’s easy for women to speak up and say, well, I want you to touch my vagina this way. I mean –
Sarah: [Laughs]
Kelly: – that’s very, like, talk about unrealistic. Like, I think it actually is often very difficult for, for, for women in, in, even in, you know, in the modern world to, to say these things and, like, sometimes, like, people come to, like, being able to ask for things through, you know, sex advice columns and stuff like that, but like, that doesn’t speak to everybody?
Sarah: Nope.
Kelly: And I think that a lot of times, like, you know, I, I think there’s something cool about the fact that there’s this entire, you know, Harlequin Presents is sold in every Walmart in America, and, you know, there’s a lot of places where it’s still hard to, to tell your husband that you want him to do a certain thing, you know. I just, I think that there’s something very cool about the fact there’s this entire popular literature that’s like, no, you should. You know, you deserve that. That’s good. Like, every, you know, go for it. Say it. Speak up.
Sarah: Plus, there’s also this cultural expectation that men should automatically know how to have sex and do it well, and female orgasms can be really mysterious and tricky, and it’s interesting to me that while there are some really ridiculous clichés about sex in romance, like the simultaneous orgasm – if they’re not coming together, then they won’t be staying together is, like, the, the subtext there? It’s not even sub; it’s just text, but – [laughs] – there’s also the fact that you have a lot more oral sex, there’s a lot more sexuality that’s depicted and explained, and it’s a, it’s a way of learning about sex through your own imagination and being able to say, oh – like when you were reading Shanna – okay, this is not, no, this does not work for me, whereas, oh, that does work for me! I can learn more about this interesting thing and possibly visit the cool shop with the tinted windows that, you know, I drive by every day and don’t have the courage to go in. Now I want to go in, because this sounds great. I know RedHeadedGirl who reviews for me was very frank about the fact that when she first had sex, as she put it, two virgins plus unlubed condom equals not good times. She was convinced to try again because she’d been reading romance, and she’s like, I know it’s supposed to be better than that. It’s supposed to go on for, like, five pages! There’s supposed to be waves and cresting, for God’s sake! We’ve got to, we have to figure this out! This is really important!
Kelly: [Laughs] I do think it’s, it’s interesting, ‘cause I’ve had, you know, I’ve had this conversation with, like, people I know who, you know, are sort of open to the idea, like, they’re open to the idea that, like, they don’t read romance, but they’re open to the idea that, like, yeah, that’s a cool thing to be into, and the difference, people sort of do think a lot of times that romance is porn, and, and I’m like, no, no, nonono, like –
Sarah: No.
Kelly: – and to me, they act like the, the stereotypical, like, the pizza plot is the, is the way to make, explain the difference. Like, you know, in porn, the plot is just there to, to make the sex happen, whereas in romance, like, I do think, though, like, the sex is sort of in the service of the story of the couple, right, but that having been said, I do think that it can be a very interesting way to sort of, like, basically try on ideas. You know, you can sort of, like, you know, like, you can sort of, you know, go to the dressing room and decide whether or not you really think that burnt orange is your color, and, and you can do that in, in, you know, in the pri-, like you said, in the privacy of your own imagination, and I do think that that’s valuable, you know? It’s, it’s, I mean, it’s, and it’s a lot more like, it’s, it’s a, it’s a vastly more friendly way to access it. It doesn’t, it doesn’t have to have it to be good. Even if – [laughs] – looking at my Kindle would suggest otherwise.
Sarah: It’s, it’s true, and plus, if you, have you noticed that the sex scenes almost always take place from the female perspective?
Kelly: Yeah. Yeah.
Sarah: And, and even if, like, like, yesterday, I was reading one of my favorite super-violent comfort reads, which sounds like such a strange thing to say, but romance fans understand what I mean. I love Dragon Actually by G. A. Aiken?
Kelly: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: I don’t know if you’ve read this. The, the hero is a dragon shifter. They are super-violent, campy, fairy tale, sexy romances. The heroine is Annwyl the Bloody, and she has to, she has to kill her brother in order for him to stop trying to kill her, and she’s ferocious in battle and leads this huge rebellion of men, and she gets rescued by this dragon who’s sort of amused by her initially?
Kelly: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: But I’m reading this, and there are several scenes where the sex scene will start out from his point of view and then make a switch; as soon as things get very, very physical, it switches to her point of view, and I’m trying to think when the last time I read a complete sex scene from the male point of view, and I cannot remember having read one in a romance.
Kelly: Hmm.
Sarah: And it’s interesting, because you’re so firmly located – forgive all of the puns in these statements – you’re so, you’re so centrally located inside the heroine’s perspective. As much as I dislike the theory, because this isn’t how I personally read, it gives some weight to the idea that readers who are reading romance are, at times, the heroine. They’re inserting themselves – forgive me – in, as the heroine, they’re symbiotically merging with her, that, that the heroine is their entrée into the world of this romance, and that’s not how I read? I like the characters to both be individuals, and I don’t wish to be part of either one. I like to, I like to be super nosy and have omniscient knowledge of all of them, because I’m really, really nosy. The idea, though, that the sex is always from the female point of view also underscores this idea that, you know, women are never told sex is okay. You’re either told, don’t have it and don’t want it; if you do want it, you’re a slut. No one says generally to women, okay, so, sex is totally normal, and it’s totally cool if you want some, and here’s some information about how your body works. Here’s all this information, and romance is the one place that consistently does that.
Kelly: I do think maybe there are some readers who, who do like, you know, to be in the, in, in the heroine’s shoes, and I –
Sarah: Totally.
Kelly: – yeah, and I, I, you know, and I, I would never want to, like, you know, denigrate that way of reading, but I also think that, like, sometimes it’s just nice, like, ‘cause I know that part of the reason that I ramped up my reading is because it is, it’s, it’s often very hard to find just, like, female perspectives generally. Like, it’s hard to find, like, you know, women protagonists. I mean, it, and it, and it, you know, it, it bugs the shit out of me, and, like, you know, there’s this whole thing with, like, you know, fairy tale adaptations where I kind of felt like, there’s this whole string of fairy tale adaptations, like, like Snow White and the Huntsman was the one that really bugged me, because I felt like Snow White was not the protagonist. I felt like the huntsman was the protagonist, and I was like, what, we can’t even have fairy tales? Like, you know, you’ve got put a, like, you’ve got to make a, like, a dude the center of a fairy tale, for crying out loud? Like, I get very frustrated with, like, superhero movies ‘cause, like, I love blockbusters, and I love, you know, I love science fiction, and I love superhero movies, but it just, Black Widow is just, like, not the star of the Avengers, you know –
[Laughter]
Kelly: – she just, you know, like, it’s like we have to have a cast of, like, how many before we can have a woman in there? Part of the team? And it’s just, you know, it, it’s so frustrating, so I think that part of it, too, is, is this, like, hunger for stories told from a woman’s perspective, up to and including, like, we want to see sex from that perspective, you know, because we don’t. I mean, it’s always, like, you know, tits floating in the background and, you know.
Sarah: [Laughs]
Kelly: Which is, you know, which is not to say that, like, you know, you know, ladies don’t love tits, but like, it feels like a lot of times, like, every, everything is for, like, a, you know, fourteen-year-old boy, and it’s just, like, so refreshing to, to, to not have it be that way, I think.
Sarah: It’s very true. What do you think of the, the constant idea that romance readers are ashamed of what they read?
Kelly: I think people are sensitive about what they read, and I include myself in that, ‘cause, you know, I, it’s not, you know, it’s, it’s not the first thing that I bring up in a conversation with a lot, with people a lot of times, but it’s not because I’m embarrassed by what I read. It’s because I don’t want to, I just, like, I’m not interested in other people’s opinions about it a lot of the time? I think readers can be, you know, sensitive about it because there’s such an awareness that people aren’t, like, have so many misconceptions and, you know, and, and, and, just really kind of, like, stupid and offensiveness conceptions about it, I mean, and, and it’s like there’re so many different wonderful stereotypes to pick from. I mean, you know, are we, are we, are we prudes or are we, like, sex-crazed or are we, like, secretly sex-crazed prudes? I mean, it’s just –
Sarah: [Laughs]
Kelly: – there’re, like, so many things people can assume and, you know, and, like, I, I feel like I started reading, I did start reading my Kindle, like, more books on my Kindle when that became an option, but that’s partly because, like, I ride the C, I ride the subway in New York City, and, you know, who needs that? [Laughs]
Sarah: I’ve had that happen. It’s not fun.
Kelly: I feel like it’s not because people are necessarily, like, ashamed or embarrassed. It’s just because people who aren’t as, who, who don’t have a, a good understanding of it make so many assumptions that I think people are, are cautious about, like, who, you know, who they, who they tell about it, because, like, you know, what are you, like, you’re going to be at a party, and somebody’s going to be like, oh, hmm. Like, people sort of see sometimes, occasional reticence, and they assume it’s –
Sarah: It’s shame.
Kelly: Because we, I guess we should be ashamed, but, like, no, actually, I just, I just don’t want to hear your opinion about my reading.
[Laughter]
Sarah: Yes, that is my theory, that I haven’t met a romance reader who is ashamed, because if we were ashamed, actually ashamed, we wouldn’t do it. What we’re tired of is being interrupted while we’re reading by someone who wants to tell us how we should be ashamed, and really, we just want to read, so piss off.
My last question for you: what books have you been reading, romance or otherwise, that you recommend and have really enjoyed? ‘Cause you’re on vacation right now, right? And I’ve totally interrupted your vacation like a total dirk, jerkwad?
Kelly: [Laughs] Well, it’s really more of a working vacation. Let’s see, I’ve kind of been trying a little, what I’ve been reading lately has been very, like, you know, work-oriented, ‘cause, you know, I’m, I’m working on a couple of projects, so – one thing I did this, earlier this summer is I reread a bunch of Mary Stewart books, and I thought that that was really interesting. It was sort of interesting to read sort of a forerunner of modern romantic suspense.
Sarah: Yep.
Kelly: I mean, they’re definitely from the ‘50s and ‘60s and, you know, occasionally you’ll bump into something that makes you go, oh! Oh, God.
Sarah: [Laughs]
Kelly: She has this very interesting prose style. Either you’re going to be into it or you’re not going to be into it, but, you know, if you, it almost kind of reminds me of that, that Elaine Dundy book, The Dud Avocado, sort of that, like, rat-a-tat, like, cosmopolitan woman voice from – it’s a very sp-, very particular voice from the, the ‘50s and ‘60s, but very interesting. And, you know, if you’re, if you’re into old, you know, older stuff and you can sort of wade through, you know, sort of, some of the, you know, the retro stuff, it can be more frustrating, then, then it actually, they’re a very interesting read.
I read my first Georgette Heyer book. [Laughs] I, I read Frederica, and it was fantastic, and I can’t believe it took me so long to finally read something by her, and I’m actually really excited to read the new Meredith Duran book. That’s, I haven’t ordered it yet, like, I haven’t purchased it yet on Kindle, but I’m, I’m really, I’ve, I’ve been, I, I, she sort of kick-started a historical romance tear for me last year, ‘cause I, I, I don’t know. I was just so fa-, like, I, I feel like she works in a lot of historical detail that I, that I really loved –
Sarah: Yep.
Kelly: – and, like, there’s one where they just keep talking about the Corn Laws, and I was just so into that. [Laughs] ‘Cause I just love, I mean, I love things that sort of incorporate those, you know, those, those, those historical details. I really love that, like, some of it, I really love how mu-, how many, like, Victorian romances there are out there right now, because I just, I, that’s my, that’s the, that’s my period. I love, I mean, I’m so fascinated by it, so that’s kind of what I’m , what I’m reading now.
Sarah: Is there a romance that you consistently recommend to people?
Kelly: Well, for a long time it was, it was Lord of Scoundrels, and I still stand by it, but I tried to make my book club read it, and they – [laughs] – they didn’t go for it, so, actually, a lot of times I recommend Sarah MacLean’s books? I, I, I, actually, I recommend her as a good, as a good starting point a lot. It’s interesting, ‘cause – [laughs] – it’s so, it’s so hard to recommend a first book because you just never know –
Sarah: It is, yeah.
Kelly: – whether somebody’s going to be a contemporary reader or a historical reader or a suspense reader. It’s hard to know what to, what to give people. I think Victoria Dahl is a good one, is, is one that I definitely, I recommend to folks a lot. And, yeah, I think that’s usually, that’s usually where I start. Jennifer Crusie, obviously, if you are into – I feel, I feel, that’s the one I give people if they’re, like, into rom-coms? I’m like, oh, yeah, this will be your, this will be your thing. You’ll enjoy this.
Sarah: This will definitely be your thing.
Kelly: Yeah. You, you’ve got a, you’ve got a lot of reading to do. [Laughs]
Sarah: So, which Dahl do you recommend? Is there a particular one?
Kelly: I really like the, the, the one she, sort of the series she’s writing now, Girls’ Night Out?
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Kelly: That’s, like, I just really, I really enjoyed those, and I feel like they’re very, like, fun and, you know, there’s a biker and – I just, I really, I really enjoyed that, so. That’s, that’s the ones where the, the series that I recommend a lot now. ‘Cause a lot of times when I’m recommending, I recommend, you know, I’m, I’m, I’m recommending (FLAG _____ 37:42) for the Jezebel audience, so that’s a, that’s a, a really good one. I tell you what I’m really looking forward to reading is, I’m really looking forward to reading a bunch of Beverly Jenkins? I, I feel like, I, I, I’m about to go on a tear there. [Laughs] I’m about to read –
Sarah: She’s wonderful. Is there a particular one you want to, you want to read, or do you need a – you know what? Just read them all.
Kelly: [Laughs] Where do I start? I’m looking for a recommendation.
Sarah: Well, I really liked Indigo. There are a couple of scenes where I think my, my heart was in my throat because I thought the characters were in a, in a specifically vulnerable position? Indigo is fascinating because the heroine is a former slave, and she’s free, and the, the lengths to which she has to go to protect the, the evidence of her freedom are part of the story, but she ends up, she’s a stop on the Underground Railroad, and she’s got this really good-looking unconscious man in the root cellar who, I don’t remember if he, I don’t remember if he hit his head or something, but he’s, he is not awake, and he’s, of course, hot, and it turns out he is this legend in the, in the Railroad in terms of getting people out of the South and up into the northern colonies and into Canada. Their, their romance is so good, but part of the tension of the story is that there are escaped slave catchers, slave hunters, wandering around the, the, the woods looking for him. The danger that works against them is palpable, but in addition to the, the present danger that surrounds them, there’s also a class difference that affects their relationship. It’s so rich. There’s so much good thing to brain happy good book reading brain happy.
Kelly: [Laughs]
Sarah: And then there’s the, her most recent trilogy with Avon, and of course, as usual, I can picture the cover, but of course I cannot actually pull it up. Destiny, it was the Destiny series. So, the first one was Destiny’s Embrace, the second one is Destiny’s Surrender, and the third one is Destiny’s Captive. Destiny’s Embrace is so good, because the heroine is escaping an abusive parent by answering an ad for a long-distance housekeeper, and she goes from Philadelphia to pre-statehood California.
Kelly: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: So part of it is the history of California before it became a state and how many different cultures and races mixed in that part of the country before it was formally included in the United States. There’s a train journey where you learn about the history of, of California. It’s just so cool. The second one is the brother of the hero of the first one, and he has a, a, a – she’s not an escort, but she’s not quite a prostitute. Like, she’s, she is a sex worker who is installed in a very specific house for a very specific madam, and there’s a, there’s a word for that, and I can’t remember what it is. Courtesan, maybe. She’s kind of like a courtesan. That’s the right word, right?
Kelly: I think so. I feel like, I, I was recently reading this book about the woman that, one of the, one of the, this, there’s a famous opera based on her life, and – [laughs] – it was sort of wild how specific the terminology around sex work in eighteen-, in nineteenth century Paris was?
Sarah: Yeah.
Kelly: [Laughs] So –
Sarah: So I know there’s a, a proper term for this woman, but either way, she, she has sex in exchange for currency, and he is one of, she is one of his favorites, and he comes to st-, see her and hang out with her and talk to her, and she ends up pregnant, and when her life is in danger, she goes back to his family’s estate and says, look, this is his baby and I’m in danger, so here, baby, I’ve got to go, and his mother is like, no! Nonono. No, no, you’re, you’re staying too. What is this crap? And so they have to work out their relationship after they have a baby, and again, there’re a lot of class differences that come into, in, into the space between them and mess things up, because they don’t quite know how to talk to each other, except for the sex. Sex is great! They got that language down; it’s all the other ones that are a problem. The third one, Destiny’s Captive, the heroine is a pirate.
Kelly: Oh, wow. I mean, obviously, sign me up.
Sarah: Yeah, exactly! [Laughs] If I remember correctly, I did not read that one. Carrie read this one, and her, her disappointment was that the heroine wasn’t a capt-, wasn’t a, a pirate captain long enough. Like, she wanted more piracy for the heroine? And so – [laughs] – I can totally understand someone’s complaint being, I need more high seas adventure from my heroine! When is that going to happen?
Kelly: I really miss, I feel like I, that’s one of the things from, like, you know historical romance of, in days of yore is we really don’t have enough pirates anymore. Like, that’s just a big issue for me is (FLAG _____ 42:30)
Sarah: It’s true! We need more pirates. Ooh, I can give you a recommendation if you like pirates.
Kelly: Oh, yeah, oh, yeah, I mean –
Sarah: All right, Darlene Marshall writes historicals, but they’re set in Florida, and there are tons of pirates, lots of them, and she’s a, she’s a really good writer in terms of creating characters and situations that are so absorbing. Like, she’s one of those writers, when you’re reading her book, you are on the ship with everybody else?
Kelly: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: So, the most recent one was The Pirate’s Secret Baby.
Kelly: Oh, my God. [Laughs]
Sarah: You would seriously really like this book, yo.
Kelly: I love secret babies, and I love pirates, so –
Sarah: Yeah, this is, this is made for you. Like, this is – if you are on vacation, I suggest you drop everything and read the, The Pirate’s Secret Baby.
Kelly: [Laughs] I mean, that’s probably exactly what I’m going to do for the rest of the day.
Sarah: Yeah, well there you go. That’s all you need. Plus, the, the thing about Darlene’s characters is that the heroines have a lot of agency, and her heroines don’t take any crap, which I happen to love –
Kelly: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: – but, yeah, I think you would probably really like The Pirate’s Secret Baby. It can be an adjustment to go from historical in Europe to historical in the States, because, you know, when, when you’re in the, the historical, Regency, for example, everything is super, super fluffy and wonderful if you’re in the, the aristocracy, if you’re among the nobility.
Kelly: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: Like, there, there’s, you know, somebody takes care of all of your messy problems; you just get dressed and go do things. With historicals set in the States, it’s a lot more gritty and real and, you know, things are not fluffy and pretty, and there aren’t a ton of servants to make life easy for everybody.
Kelly: Mm-hmm.
Sarah: So it’s a, it’s a slightly different kind of historical, but you would really like this one.
Kelly: That sounds, that sounds great. And too, I like that, I feel like that’s sort of a trend in historical romance now is people are, you know, sort of working, like, they’re, you know, sort of taking a broader view of, you know, of what the world was. Like, I mean, Courtney Milan obviously does this really successfully, where she’s looking at, you know, what, what was going on outside of, you know, outside of the, the ballrooms, and, and I just, I feel like there’s just, there’s, there’s just so much, so many interesting things happening in that world that it’s like, I love it when, you know, that’s part of the story.
Sarah: I have a whole tag that I love called Historical, But Not in a Ballroom.
Kelly: [Laughs]
Sarah: Like, I love this series, there’re actually two historical series you might really like. Julie Ann Long’s Pennyroyal Green series? It’s small town historical, set in a small town in, far away from London, and there are two major families and some, there is some aristocracy, but there’s one where the romance is between the, the town vicar and a courtesan who inherits a house and moves to town, and of course everyone is so scandalized that she’s a courtesan, and he is terrifically attracted to her. His position as the vicar is, is given to him by his family; he’s a distant cousin of one of the powerful families, and so his job and his ability to, you know, have any kind of standard of living is in danger by his attraction to this woman, because his community is like, uh, uh, no. No, Mr. Vicar, that’s not okay.
Kelly: Yeah.
Sarah: And then, and then Kate Noble also writes a lot of Historical, Not in a Ballroom. Like, The Summer of You is about a woman who really loves being the, the center of attention in London, and then she has to go back to her family’s estate out in the country to take care of a relative, and she’s like, this just sucks! This is boring, and it’s really crappily boring! But she ends up meeting a hot guy and has a really fascinating sort of summer romance, so it’s, it’s got all of these sort of contemporary-esque elements, like the summer fling and the small town and the, and the country setting where everyone knows your business and, and you can never really grow up because everyone still sees you as this young person, but then it’s set in the, in a historical time period where there’re even more social constraints on the heroine. And then Noble also wrote one that took place in Regency Venice, and it was like, it was like the best dessert I didn’t know I wanted.
Kelly: [Laughs] See, I really, I, I really, I mean, my dream romance that I wish somebody would write is I really want, I really want to read historical romance that’s, like, sort of about, like, the, the, sort of the Habsburg intrigue.
[Laughter]
Kelly: I’m so fascinated by all those tiny German states and their tiny, their, you know, their, their tiny courts and their tiny palaces, and I just, I really wish somebody would write that series for me, because I am, I just, you know, I want, I want the Empress Sisi as a character. I just, I’m into that. [Laughs]
Sarah: I think one of the challenges for that is that – Courtney Milan talks a lot about this – that in historicals that are in familiar time periods, the, if you’re a fan of historical Regencies, the worldbuilding is already done.
Kelly: Yeah, yeah.
Sarah: You know, like, I understand so much terminology of Regency romance land. Like, I know what a phaeton looks like, and I know about all these different dresses you wear and what you do at different times of the day and, like, I, I understand that world, ‘cause I’ve read so much of it. If you’re moving readers to a different world in an historical era, you have to do a great deal more worldbuilding that can, that’s a skill. That’s not easy to do.
Kelly: Right. Yeah.
Sarah: So if you’re going to move people to small courts in Germany, there’s going to be this incredible amount of worldbuilding, but yeah, I would, I would totally read that. [Laughs] Like, oh, I wish to know more!
Kelly: [Laughs] It’s not the, you know, it’s not the, I, you know, the widest – [laughs] – like, you know, probably, you know, the, there’s, there’s a market for those of us who are interested in it, but it’s not probably, you know, the, it’s not the, not the most – [laughs] – like, large base of readers probably.
Sarah: No, but the nice thing is that if you know that there are readers for a part-, particular work, there’s a, there are options to get that book into the hands of readers.
Kelly: Yeah, yeah.
Sarah: We have a lot more options now. Yay!
Kelly: [Laughs]
Sarah: Thank you so much for doing this interview. This has been so much fun.
Kelly: Awesome! Awesome!
Sarah: Enjoy the rest of your vacation, and please let me know what you think of The Pirate’s Secret Baby.
Kelly: Oh, I will, I will. Thanks for having me on the podcast!
Sarah: Dude, anytime. If you have things you want to talk about or you’re working on, like, new long-form articles or you’ve learned some weird-ass shit, please email me. I would love to hear about it.
Kelly: Well, I, I mean, I really believe that as a result of this conversation. I’m going to get a bunch of emails from your readers being like, here’s a picture of a bag of Hefty trash bags with a Harlequin Presents in it from 1982. So – [laughs]
Sarah: If that happens, I’m totally excited.
Kelly: [Laughs] I think that probably the odds of that are not huge, but –
Sarah: You never know!
Kelly: – (FLAG _____ 49:14) are good, so – [laughs]
Sarah: You never know! I mean, I’ve lived in old houses, and when I’ve done, like, minor construction, like taking off of the wall of a shelves in a closet, I have found some funky stuff, so, hey, you never know.
[music]
Sarah: And that is all for this week’s episode. I want to thank Kelly for taking time out of her vacation – working vacation, but still vacation – to hang out and talk romance novels.
If you have questions or ideas or suggestions or you have some original advertising packages that feature Harlequin romances from the late ‘70s, early ‘80s, you know what to do. You can email me at [email protected]. Even if you don’t have advertisements and you have something you want to tell me, that’s totally cool!
This podcast is brought to you by InterMix, publisher of As Lost As I Get, the highly anticipated sequel to Lisa Nicholas’ first romantic suspense novel, The Farther I Fall. Download it on August 18th.
And we have a podcast transcript sponsor. The transcript is handcrafted by garlicknitter and is sponsored this month by Wattpad. Whatever you’re into, there is a story you’ll love on Wattpad, where over forty million people from around the world are reading, writing, and connecting over stories. You might like one of the most popular stories that’s ongoing right now, Omerta by Katarina Tonks. You can access Wattpad for free from devices that you already own. Join today and find your happily ever after.
The music that you are listening to was provided by Sassy Outwater. You can find her on Twitter @SassyOutwater. This is the Peatbog Faeries. This is from their album Blackhouse ‘cause I love it, and this track is called “The Ranch.” You can find their album on iTunes or on Amazon, and in the show notes, also known as the podcast entry, I’ll have links to that, plus all of the books that we discussed. And I will also have links, if you’ve missed them, to Kelly’s long-form articles about romance, “How Harlequin Became the Most Famous Name in Romance” and “How Romance Novelists Got Such a Silly, Sappy Rap.”
Until next week, on behalf of Kelly and Jane and myself, we wish you the very best of reading. Have a great weekend.
[rocking music]
This podcast transcript was handcrafted with meticulous skill by Garlic Knitter. Many thanks.
Transcript Sponsor
This week’s podcast transcript, compiled by Garlic Knitter, was sponsored by Wattpad, a community where over 40 million people from around the world are reading, writing, and connecting over stories. Whatever you’re into, there’s a story you’ll love on Wattpad.
We have over two million romance stories by some of your favorite authors and by fresh new voices, such as Omerta by Katarina Tonks.
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With Wattpad you can escape into a story, express yourself creatively, and connect with people who love the same things you do — all from the Internet-connected device you already own. Wattpad is an engaging and supportive community that brings stories to life and connects readers and authors in a totally new way.
Loved this podcast and also loved Kelly’s articles. I am also a fan of g.a. aiken. She seems veryy ptivate but an interview with her would be great.
Loved this. Kelly’s articles on Jezebel are always some of my favs. I especially loved the book talk at the end. Julie Anne Long is a favorite of mine, and I like the sound of Kate Noble’s books.
Both last week and this, to read your interview, I clicked on “Read the transcript,” and couldn’t get it. What am I doing wrong?
@Lynda: Usually the podcast transcripts come out a few days AFTER the podcast because it takes time to transcribe. The one for last week though should be up!
Kelly needs to read The Fortune Hunter, based loosely on real people and real events–in which the Empress Cici (and ancestors of the current English royal family) are the main characters. It was beautifully written.
@Lynda X:
The transcript for last week’s episode is right here, and this week’s should be ready soon. I’m sorry you were having trouble finding it!
Great podcast. So glad about those Jezebel pro-romance articles. I know I had a misconceptions on the genre until I started reading it.
Granted, I haven’t read K.E.W.’s Shanna in 20 years, but from my memory, K.E.W’s Flame and the Flower is infinitely more disturbing.
I’m glad you liked it, Stephanie! I had a lot of fun doing this interview.
Thanks so much for this episode! I’ve really enjoyed Kelly’s articles on Jezebel – they’re so insightful, informative, and respectful of the genre, so she’s a refreshing voice.
Re Kelly’s quest for vintage Harlequins: she might try connecting with author Jody Wallace, who cleaned out her mum’s shed last summer and discovered the mother lode of 70’s and 80’s Harlequins (and which discovery led to the [sadly short-lived] game of “Blurb/Counterblurb” on her website http://jodywallace.com/2014/08/blurbcounterblurb/ ). I’m not sure what Jody kept, but it could be worth a try.
Great podcast- as usual!! Kelly might enjoy A Fatal Waltz by Tasha Alexander as Sisi and Austria play a role in this romance/mystery story. A Fatal Waltz is book 3 in the Lady Emily series. While it can be read as a stand alone I enjoyed the first two books as well.
Thanks for the shout out during the podcast. I’m thrilled to be in such good company with the talented authors you mention.
I’m sorry, but I had to bail out on this interview because of the number of times she said ‘you know.’ It’s one of the verbal ticks that bothers me so much that I can’t listen. I can live with vocal fry, uptalk, and starting sentences with ‘so,’ but a constant stream of ‘you know, you know, you know,’ is too much for me. Sorry to be so easily annoyed.
FWIW I would TOTALLY read that Hapsburg romance.
Thank you, garlicknitter, for your work on this and other transcripts!
I hear you, Kilian Metcalf, on the number of “you knows”!
Hi Sarah
Regarding sex from the hero’s POV – I just finished “A Gentleman Undone” and there are at least two scenes from his POV in the story
Cheers
Sue
Was Kelly nervous? After 100 “you know”s, I stopped counting. I need to read the transcript to get the info she was saying. I was too distracted.
Loved this interview so much!
It’s not exactly the Hapsburgs, and I don’t even know if it officially qualifies as a romance, but Deb Harkness’s “All Souls” trilogy (especially the 2nd book, ‘Shadow of Night,’) takes place partially in Europe during the Elizabethan times, including (I believe) a palace in Prague.