Smart Podcast, Trashy Books Podcast

118. Discussing Rape, Trigger Warnings, and Also What We’re Reading

This week, Jane and Sarah discuss a letter from a reader named Sage, who is looking for resources to help her identify and avoid books that may contain scenes of rape or assault. We discuss rape in the genre, triggers, and practical ways to identify books that may feature scenes that affect readers negatively. Please note: we don’t read aloud any violent scenes or anything like that, but we do discuss rape and forced seduction in the genre, character backstory, and the ways in which sexual violence is depicted in romance past and present.

Then we talk about what we’re reading, and we discuss a book that we very very nearly agree on.

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Here are the books we discuss in this podcast:

The publishers that we mention which provide trigger warnings and content warnings in the cover copy or in the description metadata are Riptide and Samhain.

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This Episode's Music

Adeste Fiddles Album CoverOur music is provided by Sassy Outwater. This is Deviations Project, from their album Adeste Fiddles. I gave in and bought the album – and really, my need for Christmas music is exactly zero – because it’s all so awesome.

This track is, if you didn’t identify it already, The Holly and the Ivy, a traditional holiday carol.


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Transcript

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This podcast transcript was handcrafted with meticulous skill by Garlic Knitter. Many thanks.

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  1. azteclady says:

    I absolutely think that a database with at least some basic trigger warnings would be a great resource for the many, many readers who are triggered by sexual violence (or other types of violence)

    I also realized, while listening, that I am not as consistent as I could be, about including trigger warnings on the top of my reviews. Thank you for helping me become more considerate towards fellow readers and people in general!

  2. Megan says:

    A database would work for sure. I also think it would be socially responsible of publishers to provide this service themselves.

    It could also be simpler/cheaper if you use the hive mind of Tumblr. Some type of community-run tumblr (or even run by one person) where a reader could submit an ask about a book and the community could find that information out as a service. Followers of the tumblr could also answer by adding notes to the post.

    I’m not familiar with the Amazon forums and I’m sure something similar could be done.

    I can imagine it’s tiring for Sage to have to comb through review after review trying to see if there is even the threat of assault let alone a rape. I’ve always found the romance community to be extremely generous, so I bet with enough followers (maybe even authors themselves following), solutions could be found pretty easily and quickly.

  3. jimthered says:

    While I think trigger warnings are a good idea, they could be trickier in practice. What if the rape is something that’s a big surprise, revealed towards the end of the book? What if it’s something mentioned but never dwelled on (like in Lisa Kleypas’ STRANGER IN MY ARMS, when we’re told early on her husband would force himself on her)? What if it happens to a secondary character? And where would a trigger warning be placed: On the cover, like a video game description? On the back cover, after the basic summary? In the title page?

  4. SB Sarah says:

    @Jim:

    I agree, the particulars could get intricate, especially because, as I said and Sage said as well in the episode, what triggers one person is totally ok for another. The grey areas are difficult, but I still think this can be done. On to ponder!

  5. azteclady says:

    I think the question of what to add to a trigger warning list, and how, would be more complicated for a publisher than for a reviewer (or in a reader maintained database).

    If or when the publisher includes these warnings, they are visible to all and sundry, and they may irritate people who a) can read anything and everything safely, and b) abhor knowing anything about a story.

    However, a database that announces itself as a repository of potential trigger warnings would not have that problem–anyone going there would know they are asking for these sort of so-called spoilers.

    And heck, publishers who want their readers to feel safe, could point them to that same database when in doubt–something along the lines of, “potentially problematic content, go for more” or some such, perhaps?

  6. garlicknitter says:

    There is a website regarding movies called DoesTheDogDie.com with information regarding whether animals die or appear to die in movies. I think this could be a good model for how a book trigger warning website could work.

  7. Kay says:

    If it helps, I can probably whip up something similar to DoesTheDogDie.com over the weekend. But I will need the trigger info to come from you guys. Speaking of which, a “cruelty to animals” tag could also come in handy, as that is my trigger, and I really really would like to avoid those scenes/books if possible.

  8. SB Sarah says:

    @Kay: Can you email me? sarah AT smartbitchestrashybooks DOT com

  9. cleo says:

    I have many, many opinions about this, as someone who’s also triggered by rape and abuse. I like how Riptide handles it – but I wish their warnings gave more details. They use the same non-con / dub-con warnings for such a wide range of situations – from multiple on page scenes of rape between the h/h to two paragraphs about an assault that happened off page and in the past – that I’ll still sometimes do my own research, especially if the rest of the book sounds good and I’m trying to figure out if I can handle it.

    A database sounds great. I’d like to see more information than just, is there rape? I’d like to know – is the hero the rapist? Is the rape on page? Is it during the storyline or in the past? And probably other things too, but those are the biggies. Oh – and how seriously is the rape taken? Are there any neg consequences?

  10. Cecilia says:

    I second the database. While rape isn’t a triggering subject for me (not that I wish the heroine is raped, of course, and especially NOT by the hero) I am, for example, completely turn down by BDSM, not even how light. D/s storylines are often mentioned in blurbs, but if there could be a database for – for example – dividing “vanilla” erotica and erotica with bondage/spanking/various kinks, that would be great. Maybe it already exists and I don’t know it.

  11. Amy Raby says:

    One thing I’ve always loved about fanfiction is the headers above each story that give the content or kink/squick warnings. One might read, for example, “Violence, threat of rape, bondage, suicidal thoughts.” And one reader might read that and think, “Not for me,” while another might think, “Heck yeah, I’m reading that one!”

    I would love to put such content warnings in my book descriptions, but the problem is with the retailers. Companies like Apple and Amazon are still squeamish about this stuff, and if you put content warnings in your book description, you run a very real risk of ending up in the Amazon “dungeon” where they block visibility to your book. Usually it’s a cover issue that lands a book in the dungeon, in which case the author or publisher can change the cover and request that Amazon re-evaluate it, but I’ve also heard of cases where Amazon put the book in the dungeon because of the description/blurb.

  12. Mara says:

    Publishers really do need to make this kind of info readily accessible… at the very least, to booksellers and bloggers, who are recommending books every day. When I was a bookseller, I remember handselling a lit fic book to a regular that should have been right up her alley, only to have her come back the next week and tell me about a graphic rape scene in it. If I’d known that on the front end, it would have changed how I talked about that book with customers.

  13. christine lloyd says:

    I’ve seen a lot of Amazon and Good Reads, particularly the dark erotica and contemporaries, contain Trigger Warnings in the description of the book. Not the review section, but the book description – often it will state TRIGGER: this book contains sexual violence and mature content, not recommended for younger readers. Or…something along the lines that situations containing rape and/or sexual abuse are in this book.

    The problem though, as expressed in both your podcast and in the comments above, is identifying what would be considered a rape or sexual violence trigger? Take for example, the books by Courtney Milan, to my knowledge the only one that has an actual rape in it is The Governess Affair, which I avoided for that reason. (After having read a slew of books with rape and sexual violence – the contemporaries are actually worse than some of the historicals – I reached a point in which I just can’t read it any longer. Have the same problem with books about serial killers/serial rapists – which seems to be a popular trope in the urban fantasy and mystery/suspense genre. Ive been binge reading romance novels often to get away from the graphic violence.) Unveiled – doesn’t have rape, it does have a seduction scene, which some readers might consider…forceful? But I didn’t find it so. Unclaimed doesn’t have rape, for a while I thought it would, but no that wasn’t the pain the heroine was trying to overcome. Rape is sort of mentioned as back story in Heiress Effect and The Duchess War, but vaguely. Is vague okay for someone like Sage? I ran into this same issue with fanfic reading and writing. Also there are instances in which it could be considered a spoiler – for example, if it’s a big internal problem for the hero or heroine and the central mystery is figuring out what that big deal is?
    One writer to avoid – if you have issues with sexual violence or rape is Judith McNaught. Also, definitely, Rosemary Rodgers – who in some respects was even more graphic than Kathleen Woodwiss.

    I’m not sure if Meredith Duran’s books are considered to have it. I certainly don’t see it – but forceful seduction to some readers is non-consensual and a trigger. Georgette Heyer doesn’t but there’s no sex in hers either. Eloisa James didn’t…or I don’t remember any.

    It is odd that so many do have rape or forceful seduction…almost as if the bedroom is seen as a battlefield for the characters? I think it may be due to how writers often view sex scenes as action scenes – and portraying the violence or enhancing it – enhances conflict and makes it more interesting? Will she surrender/submit to him? Will he surrender/submit to her? Whose the winner? Or will they come together?
    I think – it’s done in books for the same reason you might have a shoot-out or a sword fight in another novel – as a way of providing suspense. Also, how will the characters ever get past THAT? Poses a challenge to the writer, and another bit of suspense. I think that’s why so many readers and writers like it – it’s a problem they can’t figure out how to resolve. And books are great ways of exploring how to resolve seemingly impossible problems or dilemmas…in a safe way?

    Supplying a trigger warning may for some novels spoil that suspense. So how do you get around that? Some people, like myself, don’t mind spoilers when it comes to romance novels. But others, do. So, you’d need to find a way to hide the spoilers from those who mind them and provide for those that don’t. (ie. spoiler warning).

  14. SB Sarah says:

    I agree – the details may be a spoiler, so I’m envisioning a link to more information with the caveat that it may contain spoilers. Whether to read them is up to the individual in that case.

    The explanation would be really helpful, I think, where there are “grey areas.”

  15. Marie says:

    Hello,

    I hope that it is okay if I do a small plug here, but we are actually working on what has been suggested in the pod cast so I hope that it is relevant. We have built a romance book search engine that allows you to search for books by adding (or excluding) as many keywords, topics and themes as you like (we have over 100 such tags).

    In particular, being aware that reading about such things can be devastating, we also have the tags ‘rape’ and ‘abuse’ in a ‘potential trigger’ subsection. So for people who can’t / don’t want to read about these things, they can just exclude these topics, and no book that would have them would show up in their results.

    We are still working on improving the tagging, but there are already lots and lots of books with these topics we have tagged. So hopefully it will already be really helpful when people are looking for new reading material.

    Marie

  16. Katie D. says:

    Stay away, far, far, *far* away from Jo Goodman’s books. I honestly can’t think of a single book of hers that I’ve read where sexual assault isn’t directly or somewhat obliquely referenced by either the hero or heroine or a major secondary character. Both in terms of past history and/or the threat of during the course of the story.

  17. Rae says:

    I have to add, this deal isn’t exclusive to romance novels – I see it fairly often in fantasy novels (think Mercedes Lackey’s Valdemar series). It would probably be a benefit to expand to books with romantic elements.

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  20. Amber says:

    I am a survivor, and I am one of those women who enjoys and find comfort in reading about rape scenes and women who overcome them. For me it’s a way to overcome my own rape in my imagination. I have just started blogging but I think it’s important when we all do our reviews to include these warnings because not everyone is like me.

    I’ll be including trigger warnings in any reviews I do of books that have this content regardless of the fact that it doesn’t bother me.

  21. Tara Green says:

    Hi Sarah and Jane,

    I enjoyed this podcast quite a bit as it as I receive a lot of email at our website about this topic.

    We actually have the ability in our database at Eye On Romance to add in identifiers for rape and/or sexual assault. I’ll be working on implementing this next week. I think this is a GREAT idea and will really enrich a readers quest for books that suit them.

    Well done! I’m catching up on your podcasts, which will take me a while but are loving them so far.

    Tara
    tara@eyeonromance.com
    http://www.eyeonromance.com

  22. Shari says:

    Hi Guys,

    I really enjoyed this episode. Seriously, I enjoy ALL the episodes. I am reading Erin McCarthy’s, Hot Finish, and it contains a trigger of mine regarding miscarriage. I think I am going to go on with the book, but it was a surprise. The first in the series is funny and light, and I absolutely missed any foreshadowing that this would be an issue. I admit I bought the book immediately after reading the first in the series, so maybe if I had done my research, I would have avoided this story. Maybe we could one day have trigger codes to go along with the explicitly codes.

    Either way, I strongly recommend the Fast Track series.

    Thanks so much for your podcast and all the work you guys do. I love it.

  23. Rebekah says:

    Hello! Revisiting this episode as I go through the backlog. Was a database ever created?

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