Smart Bitches, Trashy Books

I swear, every description of this hero and heroine, and their behavior toward each other, makes me loathe them on a cellular level. *recoils from screen*

Yikes, me too.  The idea of the “alpha male” as somehow romantically appealing has never sat well with me.

Thank you, Sarah. You have just explained exactly why I couldn’t warm up to the novel or the characters. There was something about the story that chafed me, but I couldn’t put my paws on it.

As to the news she’s pulling the next book for the time being:  It is extremely frustrating when something like this happens, but she’s only dissing her readers by withholding the book. They didn’t do anything wrong.  I value my work as much as any and will fiercely protect it like a mother her cub, but it’s not like it came down from Mt. Sinai on stone tablets. In the Grand Scheme of Things(TM) the world has bigger issues to deal with. If she believes otherwise, she needs to do a Reality Check. Pronto.

Note to Ms. Meyer: finish the book and move on. Choose your beta readers more carefully in the future. Consider it a lesson learned. Just don’t burn your readers in the process. That only compounds the original offense and violates an author’s Prime Directive.

Wow, that does sound like the case descriptions of relationships that lead to domestic violence that I read in college. Ugh.

As Sarah F. said, their relationship does sound like the pathway to abuse. 

I think it’s interesting that you can also reinterpret Edward as representing a higher spiritual power :

~He’s always looking out for her, even when she can’t see him
~He’s always there to rescue her
~She wants him in every part of her life
~He’s a healer (? did I read that right?  I haven’t read the books)
~She has to go through some sort of ceremony to be part of his community.

Maybe the relationship appeals to so many because it reflects a deeper spiritual relationship.

Well, I suppose stalkery cliche alpha mormon vampire does add something to the mix, just not in a good way.

Sarah F -
You know, you’re right. That’s exactly the pattern. Why is “stalking” okay for an Alpha Male but not cool any other time? Because, in essence, that’s what Edward was doing. He would say he’s hovering to protect her, but so would some seriously creepy guy.

I think that’s the thing that really bugged me—the fact he just doesn’t give her some space, let her work out her own mistakes. Maybe because I’m older I find that irritating. If you’re a teen, it’s possible it doesn’t set off the same alarm bells.

Is it just me or are the links not working?

Admittedly, I haven’t read the books and only learned they even existed maybe 6 months or so ago.  However, the descriptions I’ve seen, with all the stalking and completely imbalanced power structure, puts me right off.  This combined with the synopsis I saw of the last book pretty much guarantees I won’t pick up the series.

As for why it really appeals to some, though, I’d have to say it’s because there are times when everything sucks and blows and it sounds, if only in theory, absolutely wonderful to have someone that wants to “take care of you”.  Then there’s the whole broody, moody, Angsty McAngst hero who’s uber-powerful, but putty in the hands of his true love.  She’s ordinary, weak, and even clumsy, but she still “controls” all the power that is Edward.  I can see where the fantasy of that would be horribly romantic to many a teen (and not-so-teen) girl.  Angsty Teen Tina would have done handsprings to have super-hot-super-jock fawning over me (once I got past my suspicious “why is he talking to me” phase, that is).  Adult Tina Who’s Been In A Few Bad Relationships And Recognizes The Signs would be feeling creeped out and smothered in about 5 minutes or less.

I admit I’ve always liked Alpha heroes. Maybe it’s because I come from a very sheltered childhood myself and never had that sense of safety violated, but the imbalance of power doesn’t set off alarm bells for me… in a fantasy.  And I’ve always considered romance novels a fantasy.  Whatever life lessons can be learned from them are the same as a fairytale: don’t play in the dark unless you want to get eaten; dressing well gets you noticed; you can have it all, etc.

To switch up what Lila said, I also think at the end of most Alpha hero stories, the Alpha too has been changed by the meek heroine.  His impulse toward violence is mitigated, his cold isolation ended, his empty soul filled.  The beast is tamed.  Yes, it’s a fantasy, in a way a subversive one, that a woman who has nothing, who is nothing compared to her powerful lover, still manages to capture and subdue him.

this may be long. Sorry.

I read TWILIGHT and fell in love with Edward. Immediately. And somewhere in the back of my mind, I knew it was because he was the alpha-dog and damn he was hot. I was compelled to continue the series and by the end of NEW MOON I was wishing Bella dead and for a new, real heroine to appear. One that could match Edward’s alpha. Bella is not that girl.

I read ECLIPSE because I wanted the backstory of the vampires and werewolves. Which I think says a lot. I really didn’t care about Bella’s plight. And Edward lost his appeal to me because I could never figure out what he saw in Bella.

I will not read BREAKING DAWN because I just don’t care anymore. Plus, I know how it ends, and I am not surprised by it at all.

Now that I’ve taken some time to dwell on the story and the underlying message in it, I have to say, I’m just this side of disgusted.

Bella cannot take care of herself. Hell, she can’t even walk on her own. She’s literally carried everywhere by Edward and Jacob and figuratively carried by everyone else. The message that sends to teenagers everywhere is frightening. I wouldn’t want my children to read this and think this is how relationships should work.

Bella talks about wanting to be independent, but the truth is, she’s all talk. She’s fully dependent on someone else at all times, but the author would have us believe she’s the caretaker because she cooks meals for her father. Um. No. He was doing just fine without her before. He didn’t NEED her to cook for him. But as a reader, we’re duped into believing that she is an independent, mature, responsible caretaker.

As the story goes on, we realize she’s not that at all. Not only is she carried (can I tell you HOW MUCH THAT BOTHERS ME????) everywhere, she also needs Edward to keep her alive, daddy to keep her car maintained, Jacob to take the place of Edward in book two because she can’t muster the strength to get over him alone. She is one of those girls who ALWAYS HAS TO HAVE SOMEONE IN HER LIFE. She can never be alone. She is not strong enough to live life without someone else.

And that is not the message I want my kids to come away with.

I have no problem with alpha males as such, but they have to evidence some growth and change because of their relationship with the heroine.  That’s one of the reasons why I like SEP’s heroes so much.  Each of them undergoes a change for the better because of the heroine.

How did Edward change after meeting Bella?  He didn’t kill her, but he was already committed to being a “vegetarian”, so I don’t buy that one as being a change.  Bella changed, Bella adapted, Bella gave up herself for love. 

And I never realized until you mentioned it how much it bothered me that Edward wasn’t doing anything with his “life”. If you look at vampires in modern lit,  Lestat became a rock star, St. Germaine is an alchemist and healer, even Jean-Claude ran a nightclub!  Edward goes to high school.

Thank you for your thoughtful essay.  It was eye-opening.

I’ve not read these books, but I’ve followed various discussions about them.  When I was a teenager, and even an inexperienced college student, I truly thought that a romantic relationship required that the lovers be completely consumed by each other—that we would just kind of melt into each other and become one being.  Not just during sex, but in life in general.  I saw nothing silly about boys and girls kissing each other passionately before the long, dreadful separation that was, oh, English class.  Later on, though, as an adult, I was completely weirded out by guys who came on too strong after one date.  And while it is fun to think of a guy who is just consumed by his passion for you, after awhile, it would get a little tiresome, and make me wonder if maybe he didn’t have some psychological problems.  I’m not that great, after all.  I dunno.  And the rescue stuff—that still works for me, esp if it involves household repairs! I can see the appeal of this Edward guy for teenage girls, but I can’t really see why a grown woman, who has been married for years and presumably has a mature relationship, would sustain this view of a relationship for so many books.  When people are secure in a relationship, they are able to give and take some space.  I would want my teen readers to see that, as much as I would want them to see characters who abstain from premarital sex. And I truly love the commenter who wondered, what in the world is Edward doing, wasting all this time when he could be learning and trying and excelling in all sorts of endeavors?  He’s hanging out in high school?  He’s the vampire equivalent of the tortured artist who moves in with you, is all moody, and never gets a real job. Hmmmm.

I loved Twilight, but thought the second two books, Eclipse and New Moon, went downhill fast, with the storylines becoming both more unbelievable and the action slower, if such a thing is possible.

I don’t quite agree with the Alpha Male characteristic, although I haven’t read so many of the older bodice-rippers as you would think. The biggest reason is that Bella is the one pressuring Edward for sex, and Edward is the one continually refusing her advances.

I don’t interpret Bella’s immersion in “Edward’s world” the same way that SB Sarah does. In my opinion, to use another wildly popular YA series as a parallel, the excitement is in the hero/heroine’s introduction to a paranormal/magical world much different than everyday life. I think it’s similar to Harry Potter’s immersion into the world of Hogwarts. I wouldn’t assume that loving the magic of Hogwarts somehow means Harry’s personality is “subsumed” in the new world. That’s how I read Bella’s love of the vampire world, because she’s not just infatuated with Edward, but she also loves the rest of it: the sparkly/forest parts, the speed, the mythology, etc.

I think the fantasy of the first book is that Edward is somebody who spends all his time thinking about Bella and protecting her, and that is a very powerful fantasy to a lot of women.

You know, I think Robert Pattinson (who plays Edward in the upcoming movie) said it best:
“When you read the book,” says Pattinson, looking appropriately pallid and interesting even without makeup, “it’s like, ‘Edward Cullen was so beautiful I creamed myself.’ I mean, every line is like that. He’s the most ridiculous person who’s so amazing at everything. I think a lot of actors tried to play that aspect. I just couldn’t do that. And the more I read the script, the more I hated this guy, so that’s how I played him, as a manic-depressive who hates himself. Plus, he’s a 108-year-old virgin so he’s obviously got some issues there.”
(For the source of this quote go to my blog. You can also find links to some hilarious recaps of the books there.)

I never saw much in Edward, but then I usually don’t go for the main heros in romance novel. I don’t know why… But Midnight Sun just makes everything seem even more creepy than it already was.

[But I have to admit, I still like the books… I don’t know why. I might by addicted…]

Yeah, those Old Skool Alpha’s could be pretty annoying - as could the doormat heroines - but I don’t remember reading any of the OSAs exhibiting the extreme behavior that Edward does.

His behavior is creepy - as is Bella’s doormat self.

There’s Alpha and then there’s Creepy Alpha (CA).

I have no interest in reading the books and think that a good antidote to these would be Andre Norton’s Witch World series, where adolescent and older teenage girls are actively involved in their lives.

Thanks for the critique. I haven’t noticed any other critiques picking this up.

I saw Edward as more of a quiet alpha hero. I am so used to the alpha heroes in other romances being big, brawny, larger than life it is my way or the highway. Edward’s manipulation of Bella, even if we can call it that was more sneakier and yes intense but more intelligent and much like a predator who corners his prey. And why because Edward is a 100+ virgin means he has issues? When Edward became a vampire he lost all feelings even sexual. The only needs he had was to feed. When he saw Bella, he became alive again, much like Christine Feehan’s heroes. Edward saw the light per say. Rememeber it is a YA novel, so it makes sense Meyer would make Edward a virgin, just like Bella.
I found the fact that Edward sleeping next to Bella almost every night, holding back his urges to kill her or whatever, was very sensual and sexy, especially if I were a teen reading this book.
Sarah, I think you should read the next 2 books in this series and see what Jacob is all about. Many have compared Edward and Jacob non-stop and it would be interesting to see what you think of Jacob, Edward’s nemesis.

Edward almost symbiotically made them as readers profoundly uncomfortable, because it echoed abusive relationships they witnessed or experienced. It wasn’t romantic for them, that totalitarian management - it was creepy.

Disclaimer: I have not read the books so I am responding to what I have read around the ‘net.

Edward’s behavior definitely sounds like it’s going down the path to abuse.  Relationships that mimic domestic violence are not sexy and not hawt and not romantic.

And, in my opinion, there is a difference between the Alpha hero and the ASSHOLE Alpha hero.  A man can be Alpha without being an ass or a stalker or an abuser.  Some heroes cross the line and that is when they turn into the Asshole Alpha.

And Twilight is the least offensive/cracky/misogynistic of the books…

Jacob, Edward’s nemesis.

Also, (Eclipse spoiler) his BFF tent buddy. And (Breaking Dawn spoiler) soon to be son-in-law.

Edward’s behavior definitely sounds like it’s going down the path to abuse.

But it’s okay because he loves Bella and it’s just fantasy (it doesn’t have to, you know, make sense or anything. See Breaking Dawn FAQ on Meyer’s site).

LOL, Stephenie Myers is epically flouncing from her career.

But seriously, I love Edward because he’s shiny like tinfoil, and just as abrasive.  Also, he looks *just* like Cedric Diggory.

From the first book, here’s what I immediately saw as the irresistible draw to teen girls:  Edward is completely, entirely committed to Bella.  Deep, forever, world-bending kind of love.  I don’t disagree with your interpretation of the alpha hero construct at all; I simply believe that it was a minor factor in the book’s success compared to the utter laser-like focus Edward had for Bella.  In this generation of “He’s Just Not That Into You” where all girls hear about is lack of commitment, boys being players, etc. etc., to have this complete “you are the one and the ONLY one for me” kind of attention is very seductive.  Not to mention that HE was the one holding off on sex, so that it was clear that he didn’t want her just as an easy lay, which is also a big concern among teen girls.  (Does he want/love me or does he just want to get lucky?”)

Also, and not particularly on topic, I’d like to throw out a message of support to Stephenie.  Never in the history of writing, as far as I know, has an author been so excoriated by so many.  She wrote a novel.  She didn’t harm little children, betray her country or become an axe murderer.  But wow has she been ganged up on in a holy shit and (not on this site but almost everywhere else) very personal way, with people questioning her motives, her morals, her religion, etc. etc., which really fries my bananas.  Absolutely every reader has the right to express her opinion and thank goodness for it!!  But I can’t even imagine how much all the personal attacks must hurt and I wish I could send her a hug or three.

My YA daughter refuses to read these books. And the friends of hers that do are the exact ones that shouldn’t. They are already having self esteem and relationship issues from dealing with messy divorces, absent fathers and mothers consumed in their own problems. (Geez were the hell did that self righteous crap come from!) Anyway the bottom line is, these books only reinforce already skewed teen behavior and nobody needs that.

I would rather any teen girl out there never ever read anything than read these books and admire Edward and Bella.

I have a thing for alphas, but I know it’s because I have ISSUES, all caps for emphasis, and almost all of them pertaining to men. I’ve got daddy issues, abandonment issues, trust issues, codependency issues and so on. My sister has the same issues which has resulted in a 15 year relationship with her physically abusive “baby daddy” who has spent most of those 15 years in and out of prison, mostly in. If I didn’t react violently to hostile physical contact I too might have gone that way. I can see where a woman might want an alpha male. There is a part of me too that likes the idea of a strong solid man who wants only me. Wants to take care of me and protect me. Would rather rip his own heart out than hurt me. It helps that he might have issues so that he understands me. Ok, wait ... shit ... I just described my husband! Damn ... but, hey! He’s also a tech geek and an artists ... so that’s something!

Perhaps some enterprising fanfic writer should redo TWILIGHT in the style of Betty Neels.

Since then, the first 12 chapters of Midnight Sun have been leaked, much to author Stephenie Meyer’s dismay

You are a better person than I because seriously the urge to use ‘chagrin’ would be too much for me to resist. :P

Interesting character analysis. I can see why before the shitstorm hit so many on my LJ flist were going, “EDWARD CULLLLLLENNNNN!!!!”

Katie, I understand where you’re coming from with the world emersion thing. And there are similarities between Harry and Bella, both getting caught up in a new, magical world that until recently had seemed impossible.

But I still think the situations are different. Harry is brought into a magical world with many competing view points, personalities, mentors. Additionally it’s a world he’s always belonged to, whether he knew it or not, and though he grows once he joins it, he doesn’t have to change himself completely to be welcome.

Bella’s introduction and life with vampires is almost exclusively tied to Edward. She experiences the vampire world directly through him for the better part of three books. When she finally becomes one herself, Edward completely orchestrates that change. And it is a complete physical change. But there is no mental change, because as Bella mentioned several times over the last two books, she now sees herself as completely inseparable from Edward. They are the same person.

That idea really isn’t mentioned until Eclipse, but you can certainly see the seedlings that are planted in Twilight and New Moon. It’s just a creepy thought that this supposedly bright teenager can no longer draw the line between herself and her boyfriend of a little over a year (not counting the several months she spends catatonic because he leaves her again for her own good and don’t get me started at how much THAT part of New Moon bothered me).

I can definitely see why Meyer is p-to-the-issed about her manuscript being distributed further than she intended it to be - but wow, too bad she didn’t assess the risk (certainty) of this happening before she let it out of her hands.

Jess, you make some excellent points. What I wished for Bella to do and I wished this had happened in Breaking Dawn, for Bella to find herself without Edward, go to college, experience life and then make that decision to get married, become a vampire, etc…
And I read parts of the Edward manuscript and for me, I am not interested in Edward’s POV. For me, the Twilight series was about Bella’s view about a young girl and her decisions. After all that we know, why would we really want to know what Edward was thinking this whole time. What about Jacob or Alice, etc…?

Thanks so much for the shout out, Sarah!  Your comments on Edward’s totalitarian micromanaging personality are dead on.  It made me very uncomfortable too.  I like the occasional alpha hero- old Valerie Sherwood novels are one of my guilty pleasures- but the heroine has to be a match for him, and give back as good as she gets.  The way Bella completely submitted to Edward reminded me of all those old-skool romances (i.e. Victoria Holt’s “The Demon Lover” or Catherine Coulter’s “Chandra”) that I used to hurl against the wall when I was in high school.  After “Twilight,” I felt that I needed to read some Margaret Atwood as a chaser.

What really bothers me is how I’ve seen some girls argue that they don’t understand why “Twilight” disturbs a lot of people, that they’re not “feminazis,” and that it actually has great ideals in it to follow, and Edward and Bella are wonderful role models, etc.  I know that if I try to start arguing with these girls, I’ll start foaming at the mouth, so I don’t say anything. 

But I really want to give them a copy of “The Handmaid’s Tale” to read.  Or maybe “The Feminine Mystique”...

I have no problem with alpha males as such, but they have to evidence some growth and change because of their relationship with the heroine.

I’m going to echo Darlene here.  I love the almost-asshole alpha as long as the heroine can kick his ass and he gets over it and turns (or returns) into a decent human being.

(Sorry, Darlene, I’m so springboarding off of you today.)

And I never realized until you mentioned it how much it bothered me that Edward wasn’t doing anything with his “life”. If you look at vampires in modern lit, Lestat became a rock star, St. Germaine is an alchemist and healer, even Jean-Claude ran a nightclub!  Edward goes to high school.

I was bored on Edward’s behalf.  Really, I was.

but wow, too bad she didn’t assess the risk (certainty) of this happening before she let it out of her hands.

Well, sometimes your enthusiasm trumps your red-flag-spotting ability.

Edward does invade Bella’s privacy and home without her permission in order to watch her,

If my understanding that rape is not about sex but power… Then is breaking in and lurking around the sleeping girl having thoughts of killing her any better?

And is it even creepier that she accepts the whole setup eventually?

It’s like those women who hang out at prisons and marry a mass-murderer because the guy loves her and would never ever hurt her.

Ewwww-o-roma!

Honestly, I would be reading that and egging the hero on to off her NOW so the whole creepy dang story would be over already.

I’m absolutely fascinated by the idea of Edward as religious figure, though. What an enormous allegory if so. Holy cow.

You might enjoy reading this analysis of the LDS influence on the books, written by an ex-LDS member:
http://stoney321.livejournal.com/tag/lds+dogma

The comparison she makes to Joseph Smith is pretty interesting.

Great critique.

For a less cerebral analysis (but funny) check out the snark at the_red_shoes livejournal - the author cites a number of passages that support your thesis, adds pithy commentary, and sums the whole book up thusly:

AND IF YOU THINK WE HAVE JUST SPENT ABOUT 400 PP AND GOTTEN APPROXIMATELY TWO INCHES, METAPHORICALLY SPEAKING, FURTHER THAN WE DID WHEN WE STARTED THIS HORRIBLE JOURNEY, YOU ARE NOT WRONG.

FIN.

AND THEN THEY GO TO PROM YES PROM OH GOD NOT ENOUGH NUTELLA IN THE WORLD.

I really agree with Alyssa Day about the appeal this has for YA readers.  But also, many people are losing the reality that this is Fantasy Fiction.  If you want your kids to learn what a real relationship is all about, get them to read nonfiction or go out and make friends.  Fantasy Fiction should not take the place of real life experiences. 

Also, everyone is analyzing Edward and Bella’s relationship.  But there are other relationships in the novels that demonstrate other dynamics: Alice and Jasper, Carlyle and Esme, Rosalie and Emmett (for crying out loud).

Just some food for thought. 

On a side note, I think what Meyer is doing by not finishing Midnight Sun is selfish.  Only you can put yourself in a negative mood.

Amy sniped my comment about Edward as Spiritual Power, so I’ll just echo her.

What really bothers me is how I’ve seen some girls argue that they don’t understand why “Twilight” disturbs a lot of people, that they’re not “feminazis,” and that it actually has great ideals in it to follow…

And not just girls. Women in their 30s and 40s (the infamous TwiMoms) are also heads over heels in love with Edward Cullen and cannot see how the power dynamic might be disturbing. The fact that such a large contingent of women who might otherwise be intelligent

SB Sarah, thank you for the thoughtful essay/breakdown of Edward Cullen. He made my hackles rise during my reading of Twilight, and afterwards just made my skin crawl thinking of the implications, the creepy alpha maleness. Your essay distilled the essence of the skin crawling creepiness, and I feel like I can point to it and say “YES. THIS IS THE PROBLEM.”

Also, I don’t know if you’re familiar with Buffy the Vampire Slayer, but Twilight has also drawn a lot of comparisons to the Buffy/Angel relationship (human vampire slayer falls in love with vampire). Many people like to point to that Angel lurks outside Buffy’s window and no one is calling him a creepy stalker.

What I find most interesting about the comparison is that Angel does go bad (after a night of mindblowing sex, actually), and his stalker tendencies do turn from “aww, creepy cute” to “um, you just left roses on my doorstep with a note threatening to kill me soon.” And Angel is eventually redeemed. There is a lot of growth on the parts of both hero and heroine, and even though they don’t get a HEA, they do become better people.

Edward though, stops at “you just mentally fantasized about killing me and everyone around me. Now let me watch you sleep.”

Sorry for rambling, and I think I need to go wash the creepy crawly sensation off myself now.

You might enjoy reading this analysis of the LDS influence on the books, written by an ex-LDS member:
http://stoney321.livejournal.com/tag/lds+dogma

Holy shit. That is awesomely funny and sadly a bit frightening. The picture of Bella is cracking me up!

Thanks for the link, Amy.

I’ve been watching these entries with a lot of fascination, because I read Twilight and enjoyed it thoroughly, a throw-away kind of enjoyment, and I know at least three other highly intelligent women in their mid-twenties to early-thirties who have also enjoyed it. However, I couldn’t get through any of the others (I gave up, and haven’t even attempted Breaking Dawn). I had problems in Twilight too, where I would just get bored…but then I’d go back to reading it again and enjoy.

I am admittedly a big fan of the alpha hero. No idea why, I haven’t psychoanalyzed that part of my brain. But I do know I enjoy that type of story, especially when they are counterbalanced by heroines who also kick ass, who are intelligent, who don’t mind being a little coddled and protected, and who effect a change for the better in the hero by the end of the book. Bella couldn’t be further from that, and I think that’s what I found so boring about her and the other books. By the end of Twilight I was done with her, though I might have liked to know more about Edward and his family.

I am kind of surprised, and a little ashamed frankly, that I didn’t pick up on the creepy, unpleasant overtones as I read Twilight the first time. I guess I’ve never been a super-observant reader; I absorb books and decide whether they’re good or not based on whether I read it in one sitting, liked the characters, and remembered it afterwards. Twilight, interestingly, didn’t make my “to buy” list, even though I did enjoy reading it. So maybe my subconscious picked up on something my conscious brain didn’t.

I’ve defended the book to a colleague who declared she didn’t think teenage girls should be reading it with my “give the girls credit for brains and knowing that kind of relationship is a complete fantasy” argument. I still agree—I would never censor a book; books don’t make decisions for people, and a reading of Twilight isn’t going to change every girl who reads it into a doormat looking for a stalker to love her. I remember being a teenage girl with low self-esteem, low confidence, and unrealistic relationship expectations. I don’t think I would ever have mistaken Bella and Edward for a perfect or realistic couple, and I don’t imagine it would have changed my personal views on the way love works. But maybe I am giving too much credit to teenage girls?

You are SERIOUSLY a smart beeyatch. Thanks for the close-reading and entertaining lit-crit. This made my week. I read Twilight and Edward freaked me out but you’ve articulated the whole thing brilliantly. Well done, you.

In defense of Edward. 

Wow, some pretty negative views here, together with some really salient points.  Lends itself to a great debate.

I have read Twilight (and skimmed the other three books in the series).  I have a YA daughter and like to keep tabs on what she is reading.  I try not to censor her reading too much – I just like to be able to talk with her about what she reads if I think it is necessary or helpful.  In this case, we have had a few talks about how “real” boys aren’t like this (trying to discount the whole vampire/werewolf angle), and would you really want one who was like this?  The answer is an emphatic “No.”  And should you change yourself or your life just for a boy?  Again, “No,” unless it is both what you want for yourself and not a condition of receiving/retaining his affection.

I didn’t particularly love the series, although I get the impression that I liked it (or the idea of it) a whole lot better than most posters here.  Honestly, I kinda liked Edward.  Yes, he had some Alpha qualities, but I didn’t see him as completely classic Alpha at all.  He was mysterious, but I don’t think his wishes, desires, etc. were unknown.  I thought they were pretty clear.  What he wanted most in the world was Bella, but he knew (or believed) that he couldn’t/shouldn’t have her and that it wouldn’t be good for either of them.  But still, he couldn’t resist.  Further, the whole stalker vibe (admittedly disturbing) is pretty much gone by the end of the first book.  Really, I saw this more as a forbidden/trying to resist type of love story (for which I always am a sucker) and not a dominating/domineering he has all the power and she must submit situation.  Also, as my daughter said to me, “Mom, Edward isn’t human – of course real boys aren’t like that.  This is just how vampires are.”  Isn’t part of the point that this is a fantasy and there are two different species – and not just two different sexes – trying to connect?  And what is acceptable for one species may be abhorrent or completely inexplicable to another?  Can’t that go beyond diet (smirk) to how relationships work?

Again, I totally concede some classic Alpha behavior … and all the rescues and the constant need to protect Bella got tiresome.  But I also don’t think Bella subsumed her identity and was completely adsorbed in Edward, or that her actions/reactions were exclusive to her.  I think it was mutual – they were consumed by one another.  Moreover, I don’t think Bella completely lost her identity or her essential Bella-ness.  In fact, in the later books that is what saves her (and all of them).  Edward also grows and changes as the books progress, at least to some extent.  And, honestly, who doesn’t become a bit extreme in their behavior with their first love?  It doesn’t have to mean it is a bad, unhealthy, abusive relationship.  My first, true love was freshman year in college (I am not counting the high school crushes) and we spent every possible minute we could together – eating, sleeping, classes, socializing – for months and months.  Maybe not 24 hours a day, but close to it.  And he was a great guy, even during our breakup. 

Anyway, I could debate this for ages.  Ultimately, I think that what draws readers to this book is the idea of “The One.”  A single, true, everlasting love.  Someone who you would do anything for and who would do anything for you.  A fantasy, but not an especially harmful one.  Not domination or submission, but the formation of almost a new entity.  Something mutual.  And the fact that it is a forbidden love only adds some spice.  Readers loving heroes with Alpha qualities may play into it, but I don’t see it as the primary draw.

All that said, I didn’t love the series, but I also don’t think they are harmful books for teens, especially if they help prompt some discussion of real, healthy relationships.  Just my two cents.

RachelM said:

But also, many people are losing the reality that this is Fantasy Fiction.  If you want your kids to learn what a real relationship is all about, get them to read nonfiction or go out and make friends.  Fantasy Fiction should not take the place of real life experiences.

I don’t agree with this at all. I think fiction (and not just of the fantasy genre) is a powerful tool for teaching about relationships. I think fiction gives the reader the power to “try on” all sorts of situations (and emotions) the reader’s real life may not allow. I believe there’s some psychologists who argue that teenagers fantasize because it is an emotionally safe way of trying out personas and finding out what they like and dislike about themselves (and other people).

Escapist fiction also allows for a reader to decide what she (or he) doesn’t like about a certain situation, a certain trope. 

The “this is fantasy, it’s not real so it doesn’t matter” sort of argument is one I keep seeing crop up in discussions of Twilight, used even by the author, and I can’t help but feel mildly insulted whenever it is employed.

Fiction can teach, can convey experience, just as well as non-fiction, and both can teach as well.

My take on Twilight was the curious appeal of the lover who is incredibly dangerous to everyone BUT the beloved.  It grabbed me in a very personal, visceral way, though I can understand it being a huge turn-off for others. If you’re interested, my review is here: http://bunnyplanet.blogspot.com/2007_02_14_archive.html

(page down a bit.)

@ Edward. go see this, it’s odd how great it is, and how in character
http://oxymoronassoc.livejournal.com/462027.html
I thinkn this is what they came up with when they considered how a 107.year-old male virgin must feel.

@ discontinuing Midnight Sun
I get the feeling that S. Meyer wasn’t bothered writing Midnight Sun till the end, and had the chapters leaked so she could bitch, moan, and discontinue. I also think that she’s done it b/c she’s gotten such crappy reviews for Breaking Dawn.
On with the conspiracy theories! :)

I think the relationship of Bella and Edward and the appeal it has to a dismayingly large part of the female population in the U.S is part of a larger swing toward conservative ‘values’ with emphasis on the male provider and the female homemaker who takes care of the babies and who doesn’t need to ‘worry’ about anything because her ‘loving’ alpha has everything, including her, under control.

It’s not just in YA reading material, it’s all over, media, TV, politics.

It creeps me out and it scares me.  Shades of ‘The Handmaid’s Tale’ are turning into much more than mere shades, if you ask me.  That book should be required reading for everybody who thinks Bella/Edward make a good role model.  I’ve lived in the U.S. for 10 years now and it’s frightening to see the current (d)evolution towards the kind of society Atwood describes.

I’ll proudly call myself a feminazi, if one is considered one for being concerned that the rights and choices women have fought for over the centuries are being eroded, scoffed at and taken away by a patriarch society in the most insidious ways.

And to whoever thinks that young and not so young people do not take away worldviews, values and attitudes from their leisure reading or TV for that matter, I think you are deluding yourself, especially in the U.S. society where parental intervention and parent-kid talks just don’t happen due to chronic lack of time and energy.

I think fiction gives the reader the power to “try on” all sorts of situations (and emotions) the reader’s real life may not allow.

Hear hear!  Romance fiction helped form my personal views of behavior I would and would not accept in a relationship.  And how many of us learned about sexual negotiation from reading?  I know I did.

Christ, that message board with all of the ER stories is classic.

I know this is just my personal issue but I really, really wish we could agree to use some other term for creepy, bullying “heroes”.  There’s a world of difference between Alpha and Asshat.  Blurring that line pushes every last one of my buttons. 

That said, Edward sounds like he’s on the wrong side of that line for my taste & I’m going to continue to pass on these books.

Reading all these comments made me think back to a YA novel I read last year that I enjoyed immensely, Keturah and Lord Death by Martine Leavitt.  You can keep ol’ stuck in high school Edward, because in this novel the protagonist (I dare not call him the hero) is the Big Kahuna of the Last Exit himself.

Keturah is a young woman with dreams for her future.  She also has to make some tough choices, but the beauty of it is, the relationship is strong enough that she’s not being controlled while she makes her choices.  I’d highly recommend this fantasy to readers of any age, but I warn you, have the hankies handy.

>In the Grand Scheme of Things(TM)

<

I love this….GSOT

My 17-year old niece spent 10 days vacation with us this summer, and I made a point to snap several 'special' pictures of her because in each one, she was carrying…you better sit down…a book.

I know, I know. I couldn't believe it either---thus the photographic proof, which I'm sending to her mother, my sister, as if to say: When she spends time with her aunties, she reads. Each picture a different book. Each book by Stephanie Meyer. Twice we had to take her to the bookstore to get the next Meyer. I usually try to first read anything I give her, but Meyer got ahead of me. Reading this blogpost has been an eye-opening experience, and yet, I am intrigued with any author who can so totally capture the attention of someone who hasn't read anything since the Pokeman craze.

Oh wait, I'm wrong---she's been reading everything Anime. She's even written some fanfic herself. I read one of the pieces and was appalled to see the rather nasty, alpha male type being so adored by the female who in turn was adored by him. No one else adored either of them. There's something very sad about how so many teens, disaffected from the harsh world around them, are themselves harsh in their evaluation of everything except…that special, odd, not-so-nice, and yet, sweet-to-them, 'hero.'

Whoever said we need a new word might be right. And yet…do we? In the GSOT (tm), every generation has

its own version of Hero, and, as we see, history does, in many ways, repeat itself.

he’s been reading everything Anime. She’s even written some fanfic herself. I read one of the pieces and was appalled to see the rather nasty, alpha male type being so adored by the female who in turn was adored by him. No one else adored either of them. There’s something very sad about how so many teens, disaffected from the harsh world around them, are themselves harsh in their evaluation of everything except…that special, odd, not-so-nice, and yet, sweet-to-them, ‘hero.’

I haven’t read Meyers, and probably won’t, but I’m not overly anxious about teen girls imprinting on asshole alphas.  It wears off eventually.

I think this is kind of a prototypical bad-boy crush thing.  Like fantasizing that your boyfriend is a rock star.  Very cool to dream about, not so cool to live.

needed17: needed to be a LOT older than 17 to figure that out.

1) Very interesting, Sarah. As are the comments (though I haven’t gotten through all of them yet.

2) It’s been kinda bugging me since I read the first book. Edward Cullen... Barnabus Collins. I’m thinking there my be some influence from Dark Shadows. Not that the characters are necessarilly alike (It’s been forever since I watched reruns with various older figures in my life, so I can’t comment one way or another), but while I was reading I remember thinking, ‘Huh. Subtle.’ But I might’ve been the only one to make that connection, and could be way off….

I was bored on Edward’s behalf.  Really, I was.

I never really understood that one myself.  The only argument I’ve seen for Edward still going to high school was that information changes as the years pass so it’s a way to catch up on current events and standards.  Which might work, if he wasn’t “only” a hundred, he was getting any use out of those medical degrees he has, and most normal people went back to high school over and over again over their lifetimes to catch up.

And the age thing is silly as well.  “Well, he only looks seventeen!”  How hard is the phrase, “I’m younger than I look” to say?  I have to say, “I’m older than I look,” all the time (I’m thirty and look twenty, thank the god of gene pools) and I don’t sprain anything doing it.

I know this is just my personal issue but I really, really wish we could agree to use some other term for creepy, bullying “heroes”.  There’s a world of difference between Alpha and Asshat.

I used to call a boneheaded moron I worked with Captain Asshat.  That’s up for grabs.  :)

I used to call a boneheaded moron I worked with Captain Asshat.  That’s up for grabs.  :)

I would totally vote for that.  It’s descriptive, but actually markedly less vulgar that names I’ve given some of the men I’ve worked with :)
And not a single one of the Captain Asshats has been an Alpha anything.  Alpha wanna be, maybe.  Alpha, no.

I think the relationship of Bella and Edward and the appeal it has to a dismayingly large part of the female population in the U.S is part of a larger swing toward conservative ‘values’ with emphasis on the male provider and the female homemaker who takes care of the babies and who doesn’t need to ‘worry’ about anything because her ‘loving’ alpha has everything, including her, under control.

See, I think that picture in itself is a fantasy.  I’m a religiously conservative SAHM…but while my husband is the sole breadwinner (at least right now), believe me, it’s me who keeps it all running smoothly (ok, keeps it from veering completely into the ditch).  If something goes wrong with the house, or the car, or the toilet or the inlaws or whatever, it falls to me to figure out the money and the logistics and the tactful replies—and that’s how most of my friends’ marriages operate, too, whether they stay home or not.  I think we all know here that it’s not a big bon-bon fest, with some pliant, adorable children and a husband who just lives to rub our feet and draw us a bath, then sit around and talk about deep feelings, rather than, oh, playing Halo and watching Survivorman.  No matter how conservative you are, or whether or not you get to make the choice to stay home (not everyone can, should, or wants to), you have to be able to take care of yourself and the people who depend on you.  You husband doesn’t exist to supply your every need.  Teenage girls need to be taught this.  The control issue….well, I think that’s more of a personal psychological issue, and not specifically a religious one.  A man who loves his wife the way he is supposed to is not going to try to control and manipulate her.

I’m fond of saying that the creepy, bullying heroes (okay, those were Sarah’s words) that were prominent in the romances of the 70’s and 80’s were the same abusive jerks that the heroines were rebounding from in the 90’s and 00’s to make the conflict interesting for the real good guy. 

Edward IS the guy your father warned you about.  Every girl wants to think that the dark mysterius loner who only loves her really has a heart of gold.  Obsession isn’t fun unless there is some hint (however erroneous) that having your obsession is just as fulfilling as your dream of it.  I remember dreaming about an Edward. 

And then I stalked and caught the guy I’ve been married to for twenty years and realized how totally boring Edward would be.

One of the things that really oogies me out is the fact that Bella wanted to LITERALLY die for this guy—and she had no other kisses, no other life-experiences, no other hopes for anything else productive in her life.  Uhm.  Romeo and Juliet, anyone?  Where even the guy guarding Julie’s tomb has to die because he gets in Romeo’s way? 

But we’ve always dreamt of obsessive, identity subsuming love.  And then we live real life and know better.  Still, I can’t help thinking of Edward and Bella and remembering my friend (yes, Mormon) who got her degree of engineering and then went to live with her husband (with a degree in agriculture) and their two kids on a farm in Visalia, and who quit talking to all of her old pagan friends because, really, what did we have to talk about? 

Die for your husband indeed.

Oh yeah—and can I just say that Anne Bradstreet had her shit published without her permission too, and instead of making her brother-in-law fish his tonsils for his personal bits and going off to pout, she just rewrote the fucking thing and sent out Poetry 2.0?

Perhaps some enterprising fanfic writer should redo TWILIGHT in the style of Betty Neels.

NOW PLZ. *grabby hands*

Leah,

we obviously have different perspectives and experiences.  For example, I was completely bowled over when I found out how many wives of deploying soldiers had no life aka financial skills whatsoever (we live in the South, where the good ole boy network is well and alive and women literally get petted on the head by men who just happen to ‘know better’).  Most of the women couldn’t balance a checkbook, didn’t know what bills the family had and when they were due, how much money their husbands made, how much money was in their checking accounts, etc. (one guy had even managed to convince his wife that he had to pay the Army for drill weekend, instead of the other way around as unbelievable as that sounds!) and they had no idea how to cope with everyday life, besides driving the kids to school and after school activities, with really ugly results in some cases, bill collectors, foreclosures, etc.  And those were not just very young women, but also women in their 30s and 40s.  A real eye-opener and not in a good way.  Edward seems like just that kind of guy and Bella just that kind of woman.

Certainly, they aren’t all like that as you and your friends prove, but as a semi outside observer I can definitely tell a difference in the attitudes and tolerance level now as compared to 10 years ago and I can’t say I like it, same as I don’t want to read any 70/80s alpha jerks any longer either.

Thanks Sarah. Even though I am a big fan of the Twilight series, I can see where people are coming from.  It makes me wonder if Meyer had Bella fight her attraction or whatever she had for Edward a bit more, what their relationship would really be like. If she did, would Edward indeed be more of a stalker many believe him to already be? Again, I think of Twilight as the ultimate fairy tale for teen girls. To find that boy that makes you feel intense love for the first time, to be protected and placed upon pedestal by the boy and know he is so perfect and only loves you is one fantasy most readers still long for.

quote]we obviously have different perspectives and experiences.  For example, I was completely bowled over when I found out how many wives of deploying soldiers had no life aka financial skills whatsoever (we live in the South, where the good ole boy network is well and alive and women literally get petted on the head by men who just happen to ‘know better’).  Most of the women couldn’t balance a checkbook, didn’t know what bills the family had and when they were due, how much money their husbands made, how much money was in their checking accounts, etc.[

I expect you’re right.  I have to say that my father died when I was a teen, leaving my mom with a large family to raise on her own.  She has always been independent, and had to become even more so.  And I lucked out—my dad was very religious, but not at all a chauvinist, and my husband, as well.  My sister married an Army guy, and they seem to balance pretty well, but that is a very different, macho culture—which,in the examples you’ve given, puts women at a disadvantage, since they have to do so much alone.  Also, I am from Indiana, which may seem like another branch of Tennessee and Kentucky, but really isn’t.  So I have little idea of some of the nuances of southern culture.  It’s interesting that you’ve seen that change in the last 10 years….  And kinda sad.  If they’re using religion to justify this kind of treatment (and accepting it), I think there’s plenty of scriptural evidence that they’re mistaken. 

Wow…my mind is boggling at women not knowing about their own family finances…..

I haven’t read all the comments, or any of these kooky books, but I’m also struck by the urge to defend Edward’s passionate obsession with Bella.  I call this the kill her/kiss her conflict and I LOVE it.  Anne Stuart does it particularly well in her Ice series.  Most of the heroes, who would probably make Edward look like a choir boy in comparison, fully intend to kill the heroine at the start of the novel.  Hell, throughout the novel.

This kind of hero is dangerous, tortured, and irresistible.  Do I want to date a vampire or a ruthless assassin in real life?  Of course not!  Give teens some credit.  The girls who read Twilight are smart enough to know the difference between a fictional character and a real-life a-hole, too.

Most of the heroes, who would probably make Edward look like a choir boy in comparison, fully intend to kill the heroine at the start of the novel.  Hell, throughout the novel.

Jill, I’m very curious about this Ice series you’re describing. Is there visible growth or sacrifice involved for the hero and/or heroine, and i so, how great of a change are we talking about? I imagine there has to be if there’s any sort of HEA (otherwise I can’t imagine there being anything but a dead heroine at the end of the road).

Give teens some credit.  The girls who read Twilight are smart enough to know the difference between a fictional character and a real-life a-hole, too.

I’m reminded of the initial Twilight review Sarah posted a week or so back (and the comments therein). The concern a lot of people have (myself included) is not whether young adults reading these books can distinguish fact from fiction. It is whether they will consider the borderline abusive behavior typical of alpha types acceptable in their own relationships.

I’ve been thinking about the “stalkerish/creepy” side of Edward that everyone talks about.  From my experiences in high school and college when a guy I was deeply interested in was “stalkerish” it was a good thing.  I liked him, I wanted to see him, I wanted him to be around all the time.  However, if I wasn’t interested in the guy, than it was seriously creepy and I was a little freaked out by it.

I figure if the feelings are mutual, it’s okay, though not necessarily healthy.  I’ve never been one for couples being one entity and foreswearing their former lives and friends when they reach couplehood. 

I’ve only read the first two books, and I read New Moon first because it I found it at my guesthouse in Chaing Mai, Thailand.  I got to read it for free.  I found the first book in the used books section of a store in Seoul, Korea a few months later. I’ve enjoyed them.  Alot.  I liked the tension in the second book going back and forth between Jacob and Edward as a match for Bella. 

Someone said it earlier, but these books are pure fantasy for me as well.  There are a lot of things I accept in a fantasy that I would never put up with in real life.

And the friends of hers that do are the exact ones that shouldn’t. They are already having self esteem and relationship issues from dealing with messy divorces, absent fathers and mothers consumed in their own problems.

This, along with the whole discussion, has me going shit-shit-shit.

My 15 yo sister-in-law adores these books.  Last time I was visiting, I even drove her to the bookstore so she could use her birthday money to buy every single one.  I was thrilled, as she hasn’t been a big reader before.

But she’s already unfocussed, uninterested in school, and has no discernible goals for the future.  Her mother’s prediction for the girl?  “Oh, Lisa will get married right out of high school and start popping out babies.” 

Shit, shit, shit.  It seems like these might just reinforce everything I worry about regarding Lisa.

Must go troll GS vs STA threads to see what better YA I can give her.

Thank you for writing this post.  It was wonderfully insightful and clarified a few things I’d been thinking, but hadn’t been able to really lay out clearly in my head.  I’ve added a link to this post in a blog post that I recently wrote on Pixiepalace about this series.

I’m currently 16, and when I started reading the series I was 14 I believe, the first run through I was mesmarized… then I got to the third book and could not decide which of the boys I liked more.

I recently reread the books and I have to say that Edward does in fact give me the creeps.  Not only is he very stalker-ish he is also so perfect in her eyes that it makes my teeth hurt.  Their is something about him that just bothers me and I think you’ve hit the nail on the head.  I am a person with a strong sense of self, I cannot see myself wrapping around anyone, especially not at my age.  Bella’s change from indepenent to dependent is a recurring nightmare of mine.

I read the third book reguardless of this fact and I have to say what a disappointment, even from a junior in highschool I can see that the relationship is not healthy.

As a sidepoint on the Harry Potter comparisan, they are oddly similar in their relationships, in the sense that at the end the relationships weren’t healthy.  Potter’s was based on hero warship from Weasley, and you can almost say the same for Bella.

how great of a change are we talking about? I imagine there has to be if there’s any sort of HEA (otherwise I can’t imagine there being anything but a dead heroine at the end of the road).

Lyra:  Haha, yes, the hero sacrifices a great deal to keep the heroine safe, and the HEA is all the more satisfying because we see a “heartless” killer fall in love.  Cold As Ice won a RITA this year.  Guess I’m not the only one who liked it. *g*

The concern a lot of people have (myself included) is not whether young adults reading these books can distinguish fact from fiction. It is whether they will consider the borderline abusive behavior typical of alpha types acceptable in their own relationships.

Well, I can’t say teens and adults are the same, because they aren’t, developing brains and all that, but I’ve read a lot of old-school romances (as a preteen, even) and never been confused about whether abusive behavior is acceptable in my own relationships.

Thanks for the discussion.

Alpha males can work, if used properly. I’m currently reading Lord of the Fading Lands (C.L. Wilson) and she has an Uber Alpha Male as her lead. He’s claimed the heroine as his “truemate” which means he’s maniac about protecting her.

As the story progresses, he changes as the heroine steps to the fore and begins to take charge of her own destiny. That’s when the Alpha male really works in a story. His alpha-ness has to be balanced by a strong female. Give me growth for both lead characters (and some of the second bananas) and I’m a very happy reader.

I’m surprised that nobody’s connecting this to anime. Any Fushigi Yuugi or Sailor Moon fans out there? Edward is totall a novelized rendition of Tamahome or Darien, right down to the excessive beauty and the bilty to make the heroine act like a moron and pine for him all day. But I like the anime heroines better…

Edward is totall a novelized rendition of Tamahome or Darien, right down to the excessive beauty and the bilty to make the heroine act like a moron…

They’re way ahead of you:
http://www.mangaupdates.com/series.html?id=24393

Let’s not even go into how my modern Japan class’ discussion of gender roles in modern Japan made my skin crawl…

Agreed, Jill.  I really like Anne Stuart’s “Ice” series.  These heroes (and one heroine) are members of a covert intelligence organization, and do not hesitate to maim and kill to accomplish their mission - it’s just part of the job, and they excel at it.  At the beginning of the books, the heroines tend to stand in the way of the operative completing the mission successfully, and the operative has no problem with the heroine possibly becoming collateral damage, being sacrificed for the greater good.  As the book goes on, the operative gets to know the heroine, makes many sacrifices, falls in lurve, and significantly changes his worldview - to the degree that most of the heroes retire from the organization so they can begin a non-violent life with the heroine. 

The heroes’ emotional evolution is really well done, and very satisfying.  But I think this is possible because the baseline motivation of these characters is that they kill for the greater good - for their government.  The killings are “sanctioned.”  I think this is an important distinction.

and that is why i prefer jacob.

I haven’t read the Twilight Series, and do not plan to, but Ms. Meyer should just get over her hissy fit and finish the book so the devoted fans who made it possible for her to continue to publish can have closure. That said, it is unfortunate that the leak happened and I can completely understand what she says about that affecting how she would continue to write the book. It could possibly affect the outcome of the book for the better, no? If I had been a devotee of Twilight and Meyer, I would take this as an affront and never again buy a book written by her. Nevertheless, I wish her the best of luck and hope she finishes it.

You definitely make valid points. There’s a reason those heroes have been around so long, why they have continued to hold appeal decade after decade. For some people, quaint old-fashioned romances may not be what they are looking for, and maybe all-consuming love makes people uncomfortable. As for me, I fell hard for Edward, and whether or not he is “creepy” is not an issue. He’s creepy out of love. He has flaws, she has flaws, but if the reader lets themselves get swept up in that dramatic, I-will-die-for-you love story, it’s magic. One must remember that the books aren’t guides to life. Maybe the relationship isn’t healthy, but no one’s saying it should be.

I find the fact that Edward is the person in charge of whether or not they have sex or Bella is vamped to be very creepy.  It’s more controlling behavior. 

I have nothing against nonsexual stories although I wouldn’t bother reading anything that was a jeremiad against sexual activity and in favor of the presexual state.  That’s not a store, it’s a tract.  (Virgin is way too loaded a word for some discussions).  But where one character is in charge reminds me a lot of those icky Nicole Jordan books where the male character would repeatedly excite the heroine then to punish her (or for some other stupid reason) he would back off only to do it all over again a chapter or so.  The heroine never seemed to catch on what was happening so she neither consented or enjoyed it.

Lots believe that Edward was going down the path of an abuser, I think he’s already there. All during the series Edward is contantly manipulating Bella in order to get her to do exactly what he wants. It’s just disgusting. But, lots of young readers seem to only believe that he cares for her so much he must know what’s best for her. In New Moon the second book in the series there is a chapter titled “Vote” ( not sure but I think it is) where Bella wants Edward’s family to vote on her becoming a vampire. Edward does not like the way the voting session is going and grabs Bella’s face in a way that she cannot speak and screams, no, no, no down on top of her head while his family just stood around and watched. Then Edward shuffles Bella out of the back door and takes her home where he “shushes” Bella when she begins to speak, so he can think of a way to manipulate the situation to his advantage.

I’ve never like these characters. My reading of the series was work related. Thank goodness that assignment is over.

Interesting comparison re Anne Stuart’s Ice series. I tried reading one of them to see what the fuss was about; I managed to finish the book, but pretty much hated the characters, didn’t care for the writing and don’t feel inclined to read another Stuart book.

so the devoted fans who made it possible for her to continue to publish can have closure.

The book in question is Twilight from Edward’s POV (and being in his head does not make me more sympathetic to him and his angst in the slightest; it has quite the opposite effect…), so it’s not like readers don’t know what ultimately happens; Midnight Sun just provides more stalker thoughts and lulz.

[Heh. My spamfilter word is woman19.]

I agree with a lot of the points that everyone has made, but I do object to one thing, and that is calling Edward an Asshole Alpha.

First of all, Edward is barely present at all in the second book and by the third book hardly complains at all when Bella does stuff that he dislikes or disapproves of.  Edward is very definitely an Alpha, and his behavior does border on stalkerish to the point of making me uncomfortable, but he never manipulates Bella (at least not in a way that is any different from how parents manipulate their children, which says a whole lot about their relationship right there), nor does he ever object on the rare occasions that she does stand up to him.  In fact he actually wants her to be able to do stuff independently of him.  He frequently comment in a rather tired manner about how she would probably have killed herself through sheer clumsiness if he or others weren’t around to save her from herself.

Compare this, on the other hand, with Jacob, who on several occasions actually assaults Bella.  He kisses her, against her will and while she struggles, on two occasions, a few times when he is mad at her he handles her so roughly that he actually leaves bruises on her arms, and, when he wants something from Bella that she doesn’t want to give him, he threatens to kill himself if she doesn’t do what he wants.  Now that is an example of very disturbing manipulation.

I thought for a while that Meyer was using Jacob to demonstrate
to her teenage readers what exactly what to avoid when it comes to boys, until I read an interview she gave a couple of months ago (or maybe it was on her website, I can’t remember) in which, to paraphrase, Jacob is a wonderful human being who is simply misunderstood, and to not judge someone based on their actions without walking a mile in their shoes.  She lost me right there.  Edward may be stalkerish creepy, and Bella may be an idiot doormat, but Jacob is abusive and an Asshole Alpha that she thinks is wonderful.  Ick. 

As an editorial opinion, Stephenie Meyer really needs to develop a thicker skin if she plans on continuing to publish her work for public consumption.  Almost immediately after the release of Breaking Dawn, the negative reviews started rolling in, deservedly in my opinion.  Her reaction to the negative reviews was to say in an interview (again, paraphrasing) that anyone who disliked the book just wasn’t smart enough to “get it”.

-Ali

by the third book hardly complains at all when Bella does stuff that he dislikes or disapproves of.

No, he just dismantles her truck so she can’t get away from him. But it’s okay, because he loves her.

I think poor Jacob got Edwardified in Eclipse.

Most of the women couldn’t balance a checkbook, didn’t know what bills the family had and when they were due, how much money their husbands made, how much money was in their checking accounts, etc. (one guy had even managed to convince his wife that he had to pay the Army for drill weekend, instead of the other way around as unbelievable as that sounds!)

This is terrifying.

I really agree with Alyssa Day about the appeal this has for YA readers.  But also, many people are losing the reality that this is Fantasy Fiction.  If you want your kids to learn what a real relationship is all about, get them to read nonfiction or go out and make friends.  Fantasy Fiction should not take the place of real life experiences.

What you read, especially as a young person, influences what you think, in addition to your peers, parents, other experiences, other things you CAN’T experience.  I remember rereading “A Tree Grows In Brooklyn”—which was my favorite book when I was around nine—a couple years back, and realizing that it influenced my turns of phrase, the way I think about New York City, the way I look at men (which is better, shiftless but hot?  Or boring but totally reliable?),  the way I WALK DOWN STAIRS.  Which I never knew, until I reread this book as a grown up woman. All the sex stuff went right over my head, though, even though I was completely informed of the mechanics by that time. But I knew that I’d totally hang out with and adore an Aunt Sissy, though I would never BE her, and for nearly thirty years now I’ve been going down stairs in a particular type of tippy toe, just like Johnny Nolan.

Fiction develops the way a person employs empathy, the way they interpret situations and people they might not have encountered before.  Fiction, more than any other medium, has the unique power of nudging, enticing, and seducing us into understanding of and sympathy with people/eras/cultures/races we might not necessarily relate to. It tells us the reasons WHY, explains behavior to us in ways that far drier nonfiction can never accomplish. Studies have been done that show that people who read fiction are more empathic and demonstrate a better understanding of other people’s motives and feelings, and of the possible variety in that, than nonreaders, who have only their own minds and motivations to go by, do. 

So this exoneration of “fiction” books as having no responsibility really disturbs me.

Children play pretend to practice and get a handle on scary and unfamiliar real life emotions and situations.  You let a four year old pretend to give Mommy a shot, and going to the doctor the next day is that much easier (and with thirty perecent less hollering!  We hope). Reading fiction is more complex, but not so very far off from that.

That said, my parents never censored my reading—but they did talk to me about what makes a good, quality book. Snobby old parents. Aw. How I love them.  :-D

So if someone can read these books and go “Well, that was lighthearted junk-food fun,” that’s one thing.  Comign from it going “Sigh!  I want an Edward! Let me go and start a website, dress in black, and pine for that guy who’s mean to me but hot” is another.

Maybe the relationship isn’t healthy, but no one’s saying it should be.

Yes, some people are.  Hence the problem.

Er. not that there’s anything wrong with dressing in black.  I love black.  It’s slimming? :-D

What I find most interesting about the comparison is that Angel does go bad (after a night of mindblowing sex, actually), and his stalker tendencies do turn from “aww, creepy cute” to “um, you just left roses on my doorstep with a note threatening to kill me soon.” And Angel is eventually redeemed.

He’s redeemed AND changed, and goes through guilt, and has to atone! (And has to learn to not take the easy way out and burn himiself up in sunlight.)

(Haven’t read any of these books, by the way.  Tried a couple of times, in the store, because DAMN if they are not some of the most gorgeous covers I have ever seen!  But was not sufficiently hooked enough to get past chapter 1 of “Twilight.” Plus I’m always suspicious of marketing “phenomena” like this.)

The thing is, this fictional character’s obsessive behavior is done out of “love.” The narrative voice supports this, nothing is put forth to question or contradict it, and nothing about it ie ever condemned.  It’s all okay because “love!”

The question then becomes, what about the real-life guy exhibiting the same, recognizaable behavior that is absolutely not motivated by love?  When some young kid has learned to read that as the code for healthy affection when it’s actually code for run fast run far?

That said, I’m not sure I’d actually take the book AWAY from a teenager.  My reading was never censored. But I don’t have any teens.

Also, I don’t know if you’re familiar with Buffy the Vampire Slayer, but Twilight has also drawn a lot of comparisons to the Buffy/Angel relationship (human vampire slayer falls in love with vampire). Many people like to point to that Angel lurks outside Buffy’s window and no one is calling him a creepy stalker.

Thing is, Buffy could, at any given moment, kick Angel’s ass. Or at least put up a very good fight and inflict some serious damage. The power balance between Angel and Buffy was fairly equal, so there was rarely the fear that Buffy could be in any way victimized, and I think that is key.

I’m one who loved Twilight and didn’t really get too squicked out by Edward’s stalking. I rather wondered that standing in someone’s bedroom and staring at them all night long would be monumentally boring. Too, I didn’t read too deeply into the many times Edward saved Bella because what else was he supposed to do? Let the van crush her? Let those creepy guys attack her? Any of my issues with these scenarios grew more out of Bella’s TSTL behaviour (walking all alone at night down a dark ally? WTF?).

I can understand Edward’s appeal as a YA hero because what a great fantasy - the hottest, coolest guy in school falling for the plain Jane. The fact that he fell so completely in love with her despite the gap in their “coolness” factor makes him all the more appealing. Not that I’d want my daughter to date him, mind you…

Now that others have brought it up, I can admit that I was really distracted by the prospect of a group of “teenage” vampires going to high school over and over again. How in the world could you even begin to fake being interested in that? And why would you want to? I didn’t quite understand that life choice. Actually, being a vampire in the Twilight world sounds kind of boring. Go to class for the gazillionth time, watch a girl sleeping all night long, rinse, lather, repeat.

I truly don’t mind an Alpha hero as long as he’s not of the asshat variety. I do love me a taming of the beast tale, which is why Alphas appeal to me I suppose. When they fall, they fall so darn hard and so completely, and I love that fantasy. But I always know that it is exactly that - a fantasy. In real life, I’d avoid such a guy like the plague. In real life, give me a sweet Beta any day of the week.

He’s redeemed AND changed, and goes through guilt, and has to atone!

And does not end up with Buffy.

The thing is, this fictional character’s obsessive behavior is done out of “love.” The narrative voice supports this, nothing is put forth to question or contradict it, and nothing about it ie ever condemned.  It’s all okay because “love!”

Yep. Along with this is Meyer’s treatment of her female characters (human, werewolf or vampire—that “anti-human” argument isn’t working so well). Meyer states that Bella isn’t an anti-female character because she makes her own choices (to be with stalker!Edward and forgive him for killing her truck and all that), which, well, okay, Bella chooses all this. But the entire story is shaped so that she’s a perpetual victim who literally cannot live without a man (so what are her options, really, but to choose Edward). Edward leaves her and she is unable to function until Jacob comes calling…

The question Meyer should ask herself is “Is the series misogynistic?” or “Explain away these anti-feminist themes… [here’s a list]”

But also, many people are losing the reality that this is Fantasy Fiction.

That’s the exact same excuse Meyer gives for the plot holes/inconsistencies and issues in her characters’ relationships (I’m waiting for the YA card to be played: “It’s a kids’ book; who cares?”). It’s a fantasy so it doesn’t matter? This one series probably won’t by itself cause irreparable damage, but it adds to the general. . .imbalance or inequality with the way women are treated in media and real life. Especially when the books are so popular and taken seriously/at face value; I think it’s a problem if girls (and boys) think Edward/Bella is normal or something to strive for.

Mac,

Requesting a little bit of clarification. I noticed you quoting my snippet about the Buffy/Angel comparison, and I wasn’t sure whether you were misunderstanding me (as the part you didn’t quote was about how Angel and Buffy are changed by the experience) or if you were just further expounding.

Lyra
Re: the Angel thing,
No no no!  I was AGREEING with you wholeheartedly and, uh, emphasizing. :-)  I shoulda been clearer.

:) That’s what I thought, but didn’t want to go off assuming things. Thanks!

And do I even have to mention I LOVE how the Buffy/Angel dynamic worked, all the consequences, all the metaphors for real situations. Guh, Joss Whedon is the king.

And do I even have to mention I LOVE how the Buffy/Angel dynamic worked, all the consequences, all the metaphors for real situations.

I think part of that - and why I quite like Angel - is because they never shied away from showing Angel at his absolute worst—not Angelus, even, but Angel, who was sometimes dark and destructive and petty and, of course, there was the singing (dorky!Angel!)—though, granted, that was more developed when he spun-off onto his own show, but a lot of BtVS season 3 was about why Buffy/Angel couldn’t work. I think the layers in Angel’s character (and others) is good storytelling. Though maybe not very conducive to the way of a HEA (although I think “Not Fade Away” was awesome and a love letter to the fans and the characters and stayed true to the overall tone/theme of the show).

And as for the above point re no one calling Angel creepy, I’m pretty sure he’s been called that and worse in fandom (‘shipper wars anyone?) and on the show(s). The “a regular kid and her cradle-robbing, creature-of-the-night boyfriend” line is there partly for a laugh, but it does also point out what’s creepy in the Bangel ‘ship. And there’s Xander and Cordelia who routinely mock or are not very tactful about Angel and his dark or evil ways…

In the Twilight series, there are no characters who balance out the blinders Bella and Edward have for one another. Not even Jacob, because that triangle was so contrived, and Jacob then became more obsessed with having Bella as his own girlfriend/imprintee that he started exhibiting Edward-like behavior…  And other characters just enable B/E (or are killed or made evil/vacuous if they are in the way—it sort of makes their opinion a bit less valid in the story when it’s coming from someone whose pov is supposed to be seen as wrong or evil).

But I really want to give them a copy of “The Handmaid’s Tale” to read.  Or maybe “The Feminine Mystique”…

I think The Handmaid’s Tale needs to be like, required reading.  It’s terrifying, as well it should be.

But I like the anime heroines better…

At least Usagi went around fighting for love and justice!

I rewatched Season 1 Buffy recently, and was amazed (again) by just how creepy Angel was. And yet, it all works out in a way that promoted a lot of pain, a lot of sacrifice, a lot of growth in both characters. True, they don’t get a HEA, but they love, they fight, they grow.

When Edward Cullen grows up, he wants to be Angel.

When Edward Cullen grows up, he wants to be Angel.

But he doesn’t want to grow up. He’s more like evil/soulless Spike, minus the charm. Or like Warren. Oh, not quite so evil as either of them, but there are similar tendencies with how they view/treat women.

Did you know Whedon named the Big Bad in BtVS season 8 “Twilight”? (I have no idea if it has anything to do with Meyer’s series or if it’s just a coincidence.)

He’s more like evil/soulless Spike, minus the charm.

Also, Spike’s girlfriend (while initially an invalid) was more than capable of bringing her own brand of capable crazy to the party. I’m sensing a theme here about the women…

And no, I did not hear about Big Bad Twilight! The idea that Whedon did that on purpose is going into my happy place, along with the idea of RPattz leaking Midnight Sun, and Edward “Sparklepeen” Cullen the prizefighter.

I am very amused by how intelligently discussing Twilight is more interesting to me than the book.

Hmm. Maybe he’s more like (early) chipped!Spike, then? Or Spike who was with Harmony, not Dru.

I am very amused by how intelligently discussing Twilight is more interesting to me than the book.

Hey, it was the lulz and the spoilers that got me interested in reading Breaking Dawn. :D I was finished with the series after Eclipse, cracky as it was, but fandom/wank proved too difficult to ignore.

handyhunter,

Please don’t put words in my mouth.  In case you didn’t get what I was saying, I was actually agreeing with you and the others.  The sarcasm was unnecessary, especially since I said “hardly” (implying that he did, in fact, still exhibit creepy behavior) and you conveniently ignored the rest of what I said.  And I sure as hell would never have said that Edward’s dismantling of her truck was proof of his love for her.  In fact, I specifically called Edward “creepy”.  For the record, as a matter of fact, I don’t for a moment believe that there was any love at all on either of their parts.  Obsession, yes.  Love, no.  Please point out to me where I once in my post implied otherwise. 

And out of curiosity, in your opinion, how could “poor” Jacob have been “Edwardified” when Edward never physically assaulted Bella and Jacob did?  Not one single time in the entire series did Edward lay a hand on her in anger, while several times over the course of the series Jacob did, at least twice leaving bruises.  How could Jacob have been “Edwardified”, when Edward actually tries to resist touching Bella at all? 

And as you seem to be so stuck on the dismantling of her truck (you mentioned it in your reply to me and in another reply after that) are you comparing the dismantling of a truck to multiple physical assaults, and finding the truck thing to be worse, because that’s the impression that I’m getting.  (*sarcasm* See, I’m asking for clarification, not putting words in your mouth or assuming that that is what you meant *sarcasm*)  Edward treats Bella like a retarded child, and good god I don’t blame him, because that’s what she acted like, but Jacob was the epitome of a classic abuser.  Believe me, I should know.  I’ve experience both.

To reiterate, IMO Edward is a creepy stalker who treats Bella like she is a mentally deficient child and he’s her guardian, which is horrible in its own way, but he is not an abuser, while Jacob is an Asshole Alpha abuser.  There is no “poor” Jacob in that series, except perhaps monetarily.

moving86:  this series sure as hell did not move me, but hoo, boy, this thread did.

I think the truck thing was the straw for me—or, well, no. It was Bella opening her window after. That’s the low? (high?) point of the series; I can’t tell anymore. And combined with everything else Edward’s done, including roping Alice into his schemes to kidnap Bella (thereby taking away Alice’s awesome (she got Edwardified too, sigh)), yeah, the truck thing is about as bad as a forced kiss. Although, at this point, both guys are just awful.

Re “Edwardification”—In order to make Edward look good, Meyer makes others act worse. And, yeah, there’s a certain amount of character bias talking here because prior to Eclipse, I sorta liked Jacob, in a non-lulz way, mostly, whereas I’ve pretty much disliked Edward from the beginning.  I also think they BOTH end up “Asshole Alpha Abusers”—except Jacob’s issues are hand-waved away in BD by the author herself (imprinting, ahoy!) and Edward’s high-handedness remains more or less constant; I think his brand of creepy is maybe a bit more dangerous too, because it’s not as blatant as what Jacob did (with the forced kiss, fake suicide/plea for sympathy attempt to get Bella to kiss him again, etc). Bella’s reaction plays a part too: she instantly forgives Edward, but she punches Jacob and tells her dad about it (that her dad laughed it off and congratulated Jacob is another, also aggravating matter). She’ll stand up to Jacob (because she’s not in love with him), but not to Edward (because that’s true love?).

BTW, the sarcasm wasn’t directed at you, it’s directed at Meyer/the series.

I said some of this on the the Twilight review thread, but I think it bears repeating.  I’m the mother of a teenage girl who loved the first three books (she’s reading Breaking Dawn now, and I told her to let me know at what point she throws it against the wall).  While I agree that what we read shapes how we see the world, I know that I read all kinds of crap as a teen (Nancy Drew, anyone?  not to mention all sorts of old skool romances where the heroine gets the HEA with her rapist?).  No one succeeded in convincing me to give those up, even though they gave me better things to read and enjoy.  And I loathe the idea of anyone trying to keep a teenager from reading, or an author from writing, whatever they please.

Anyway, I asked the kid about the whole Edward creepy/stalker thing.  She agreed that this was the kind of obsessive love that you dream about (especially if you are an insecure teenage girl), but you wouldn’t like it IRL.  But, as she pointed out, “Edward’s not REAL—jeez, Mom, he’s a VAMPIRE.”  Fantasy, not reality.  I think they do know the difference.  It may not seem like it when they take it to the extremes of fandom, but I think they do.  Just like those adults who have Star Trek or Wheel of Time wedding ceremonies (!) turn out to be normal people, with responsible jobs and balanced bank accounts, perfectly aware of the difference between their fantasy world and their real relationships.  They just find some aspects of their lives dull, and enjoy adding some make-believe glamor.