Smart Bitches, Trashy Books

I would certainly love it if there were more romances with happily plus-sized leading ladies.  Or men too, I suppose.  I think there tend to be more body variations in lesbian romance, which is my cup of tea anyway but not for everyone.  There are also some younger romances and fantasies and so on with wonderful plus-sized heroines.  “Princess Ben” by Catherine Gilbert Murdock is a wonderful example, but it is mostly a fantasy/magic/adventure with a little romance thrown in at the end.

Susan Donovan tends to use larger women in her stories… although ‘large’ is defined as size 14-16 instead of size 0-2. Still, that’s progress, to have average sizes being ok, without glorifying Barbie proportions.  Insecurities and cellulite are allowed.

Her story HE LOVES LUCY is about a gal who is 100 pounds overweight. He’s her gorgeous trainer, and both are involved in a bet to get her in shape by the end of the year.  They’re doing it as part of an advertising campaign that is being tracked by millions on TV as it happens.

I really enjoy her books. Light and funny.  In fact, I wish she’d hurry up and write another one.

Diane

He Loves Lucy was one that angered me because she didn’t get her HEA until she lost weight. The Next Big Thing was another one. When someone touts a book as a larger sized heroine oftentimes the larger sized is the anti-heroine and she becomes the heroine with her HEA once she’s not larger sized.

Pet peeve I have to admit. Confident, fat and happy just aren’t found in classic romance. And I want so desperately to read them.

The first book that I have ever read which had a plus-sized leading lady was Night Play by Sherrilyn Kenyon and I liked the fact that she wasn’t a twig and even more I liked the fact that her hero loved that there was something to her. It’s been a long time since I’ve read that book and I don’t recall reading another one since then.

It would be nice, though, and also more realistic to have plus sized women starring in these roles. I’m going to have to check out that Susan Donovan book. I haven’t read her yet.

Bet me by Jennifter Crusie is one of my favourite romance books and stars a character whose plus-size is a great part of the story.

STA: Lula in JE Stephanie Plum annoys me.  If she’d just stick with the descriptions she’d be fine. If you are skinny DON’T PUT   A NUMBER ON THE WEIGHT b/c you have no idea what you are talking about!!  Before I started loosing weight I was really close to Lula’s “stats” and nowhere near as big as Lula was described. I could not sit on a 6’3” grown ass man and squish him into crying “uncle” like Lula could!!  200 lbs may sound HUGE to JE but it’s not as big as she described Lula AT ALL!

UGH.

I want a plus size heroine that does NOT diet herself into a happy ending.  I was skinny when I met hubby and now I’m not so skinny and guess what? He still loves me and finds me SEXY! What do ya know?? LOL

I’m gonna try out the books you mentioned Sarah!

My eBooks/eBook stash, let me show u them. I have mb on mb worth of BBW romance!

This is one way eBooks are miles ahead of their tree counterparts. BBW’s abound!

The majority of my stories have BBW heroines - not that their size is necessarily a major part of the story. I’ve even got a heroine with a disability who is plus sized. And their men? The men love them that way, they aren’t stories about changing who you are to be suitable for the hero/es.

LI even has a full figured heroine category, as does EC.

I have many issues with NY versions of BBW romance (not all, but a majority), but if I listed them I’d be here for hours.

Lori,

I agree—I’d like to see plus-sized being an ok HEA too, w/o losing weight.  But I think at least LUCY addressed some of the issues and insecurites, and did a better job than most books do.  It was good for a few chuckles, too, which never hurts.  And at least Theo loved her long before she lost the weight, which is more than can be said for a lot of plus-sized books. 

I remember reading several categories over the years about women who were overweight, got slim during the course of the book, and the hero begged them to put the weight back on because they were ‘too skinny’  and he’d loved her just the way she was.  Of course, I can’t recall the titles at the moment, and they are long out of print anyway. Sigh.  Another book (also a category), both the heroine and hero were overweight.  Of course both had to lose the weight before they got their HEA, which was annoying.

Helen Brooks recently had one w/ a heroine with more curves than currently in fashion (whatever that means). The hero loved the curves.

Diane

The book that got me into romance novels had a bigger heroine, though not that I’m thinking of it she may fall into category 4 haha.  I’m talking about Min from Jennifer Crusie’s Bet Me.  But I didn’t care about her dress size, what I cared about was her insecurity about her weight, and most of all, how Cal didn’t care about it.  I think Bet Me has become my major comfort novel when I think the whole world is being crappy to me.  There are so many great scenes (like the one where he’s telling her she’s not fat, just “lush” and turns himself on, or the one in the dressing room where he makes her try on another dress that fits her better…sexy), and I didn’t feel like Cal was betwitched by her Magical Hoo Hoo, so it rang true for me.

I also really liked Jennifer Weiner’s Good In Bed, and Cannie (I think that was her name, I read the book a few years ago) was DEFINITELY plus sized.  It’s a chick lit as opposed to a romance, but it was really well done.  She doesn’t diet or anything, but comes to terms with herself.  Hmmm I read Liza Palmer’s Confessions with the Fat Girl recently but didn’t like it as much as Good in Bed.  But it was still good :)

He Loves Lucy was one that angered me because she didn’t get her HEA until she lost weight. The Next Big Thing was another one. When someone touts a book as a larger sized heroine oftentimes the larger sized is the anti-heroine and she becomes the heroine with her HEA once she’s not larger sized.

Pet peeve I have to admit. Confident, fat and happy just aren’t found in classic romance. And I want so desperately to read them.

Oh you and me both!! This and why plus sized heroines always seem to be in comedies - as if being plus sized is a perennial stand up comedy. Now I like comedies - heck I even wrote a BBW comedy of my own - but I want some gripping suspense stories, urban fantasies and all the rest to go with it!

Like Anon, I enjoyed Donovan’s He Loves Lucy, and appreciated the fact that while *Lucy* was geared to lose the weight, by the end of the book the hero proves that he fell for her before she did so. I think it put a real focus on the fact that what we think goes through others’ minds when they see us, we can’t read what’s up there and may be pretty darned off!

SORRY. That’s Liza Palmer’s “Conversations with the Fat Girl” for any who are interested in reading.

The wonderful Renae Johnson, author of full-figured-heroine erotic romance, has a story out with Loose Id in an anthology called Going Up, Going Down. In fact, I think both of the stories in the book are about plus-sized heroines. Not that you can tell that from the teensy little cover model. Bless her heart.

Also, agent Nathan Bransford said he’s gotten a slew of queries lately for women’s fic with plus-sized heroines, and for whatever reason, he’s perplexed as to the source of this sudden influx.

Bet Me by Jennifer Crusie features a heroine who learns love her curves, it’s clear by the end of the book that dieting is not going to be a part of her happily ever after.

I will make one note in defense of He Loves Lucy, there’s curvy (I describe myself as Rubenesque personally) and then there’s the point at which your courting health issues. I was reading Lucy’s starting point in that book as physically as well as emotionally unhealthy regarding her weight. So the diet didn’t bother me profoundly, but do definitely like seeing heroines who aren’t trying to a size 2-much less 0 (now there’s a size to give a girl a complex, if your trying for zero your trying be nothing).

And finally with the caveat that I haven’t read most of them All About Romance has a list of titles of books that feature curvy heroines. http://www.likesbooks.com/curvy.html

I remember reading a book with a plus sized heroine that got her HEA without losing weight. But I can’t remember the title, nor the author.

She is an baker with her own bakery, close to a mall or something, and she also does catering. She usually doesn’t serve at the catering events herself, but this time she had to, and she meets the hero. I think he owned a restaurant and wanted her to make desserts for him, and she baked him different things to test. I seem to remember her having a beautiful skinny sister. The heroines insecurities about her size led to her breaking up with the hero, and not believing him. At the end there was something with a blue dress, and her being proud of wearing it, and a HEA.

Why can’t I ever remember important information, like titles, but I can see the plot in front of my eyes?

Considering that I’ve never met a plus sized, “average,” or fat woman who isn’t obsessed or concerned or worried about her weight and society’s perceptions about her, I don’t know how realistic this heroine would be.

I think the plus-sized heroine in Time Traveling Romances is almost #5 in your list, and at the very least, a distinct variation of #4.  (It might not be either, if it’s a numbers game, as I imagine it doesn’t have the size base that 1-4 have.)

You know, the heroine who is overweight (but it’s established that it’s the kind of overweight that is simply not the pop-culture standard of thin/beauty), and she travels back in time to a period wherein the historically-native hero thinks she’s A) normal or B) thin by his time period’s standards.

Also, there is the case of the voluptuous in paranormal, particularly with weres & shifters, who are, apparently, so freakin’ big (in body as well as…spirit) that they need/want a larger woman. 

And what do these say about our current culture?  That HEA is still not available for the real woman today?  I don’t know.

One of the things that first drew me to Karen Marie Moning’s Highlander series was the fact that her heroines were on the plump and realistic side. And they stayed that way.

Before I started loosing weight I was really close to Lula’s “stats” and nowhere near as big as Lula was described. I could not sit on a 6’3” grown ass man and squish him into crying “uncle” like Lula could!!  200 lbs may sound HUGE to JE but it’s not as big as she described Lula AT ALL!

AMEN, Tracy! At 5’6”, 209 lbs., I wore a size 18. I’ve lost nearly 20 lbs. and now wear a 16. (Have to lose weight for health reasons not for body image/feel good about myself reasons). Writers need to get a firm grip on body types. 6’4”, 170 does not well-muscled mantitty make. That’s skinny.

Well, should we then start having fat heroes, then? Have the educated and wilful baronet’s daughter fall for the rotund, but witty and good-hearted earl?

Plus-sized heroines are rare, but there are hundred times more of them than plus-sized heroes.

Now, before you get on my case let me say I’m finally glad there’s a double-standard that goes against men because there are way too many against women, but think about it.

I saw the trailer for the Mo’nique movie Phat Girlz, and it’s the one where Mo’nique, a fat woman, falls for a sexy Nigerian doctor. Now, I’m fine with Mo’nique, but the trailer involved her obviously checkin’ out the Nigerian’s rock-hard abs. She’s tired of being judged by her appearance and yet she’s doing the same thing to the doctor!

If we can have physically imperfect heroines, why not physically imperfect heroes? They can be witty, funny, smart, rich, and good in bed regardless of weight. I’m frankly tired of all those “beauty and the beast” stories where the hero has, like, one scar or some pock marks but is still sexy regardless (I’m looking at YOU, Raven Prince).

As for curvy heroines (because, yes, we still need more of those too), Bet Me is the highest on my list (Mmmm….donuts) - I especially liked how turned on the hero gets when Min the heroine’s happy eating. I loved that, that he found who she WAS (and not what she was trying to be) sexy. He also made this comment in the novel about how some dishes just weren’t tasty enough without oil and butter and sugar in them, and he means Min when he’s saying it. Le sigh…

Second on this would be maybe The Wicked Ways of a Duke by Laura Lee Gurhke - which has the heroine struggling (entirely unsuccessfully) to have a fashionable twenty-inch (!!!) waist. She has trouble with her weight (and often goes without eating), but once the hero’s in the picture she completely forgets about it and he’s too horny to even notice. It’s only at the end when the hero’s lie is revealed that her weight issues come back, but in a realistic way.

I’m not plus size, but I’m no 2 either, and I hate the cultural pressure to be super-thin. What a friggin’ waste of time. I LOVE reading books where the heroine is physically different in some way. Give me someone with a big rump, a space between her teeth or big feet any day. It’s interesting. It’s real.

But here’s a question for us all: How do we feel about a less than McHotterson Hero? Big nose seems to be okay (and I think you’re right about historicals being more accepting of imperfections). Scars, sure. How about a pot belly? Uh-huh. Not so certain now, are we? My favorite example of this was Charlotte’s HEA in Sex and the City. Actually, Miranda’s Steve, although certainly hot in his own way, was also interestingly imperfect (leaving aside the one testicle).

Just finished a humongous rewrite and have missed hanging out here, but look forward to seeing you in San Francisco!

Ah! I see Anime June and I were tuned into each other’s thoughts!

In mine, I have 3 female protagonists.

Female #1 lost the weight before story begins, eats low-carb and doesn’t deviate from (except oh, the chocolate in bed, which is negated by the ah…protein factor), but it’s just a part of her life so it’s mentioned but doesn’t get a lot of play.

Female #2 is Rubenesque and is going hungry trying to lose the weight.  Her insecurities about it are only briefly mentioned, but her male counterpart likes Rubenesque women so when she takes up female #1’s eating habits, stops going hungry, and loses weight (side effect, not the goal), he is NOT a happy camper.

Female #3 has no issues.

I guess this is going to get me hated on, but I just have to say it.  I hate reading books with plus-sized heroes/heroines.  Very rarely will I find one that has the person being ok with their size.  I hate reading a book that is filled with inner angst that sounds really neurotic and obsessive.  Even if they do find their HEA I find it very unbelievable.  I really don’t think that you will ever accept that someone really loves you if you can’t even like yourself.  The fact that more often than not every other page has the character thinking about being fat really jars me out of the flow of the story.  Let it go people.  If you want to be thin, then exercise.  If you like your body type how it is then fuck everyone else who doesn’t.

I’m not sure I’ve ever read a romance with a fat heroine that I’ve been entirely pleased with.

I will be following up on other people’s recommendations here.

It would be nice to read about heroine’s being more realistic in size or insecurities, but the hero’s need to be also.  How believable is it that they are all devastatingly handsome, built, well-endowed, titled, etc.

There should be no weight loss to appease, only a change in attitude in how a character sees his/herself. 

There should be more focus on how the characters fall in love with the personality and not just the looks or the “amazing” sex.

The market is just too flooded with these unbelievable stories and I don’t know if it’s the readers or the publishing houses fault, but things need to change.

Considering that I’ve never met a

plus sized, “average,” or fat

woman who isn’t obsessed or concerned or worried about her weight and society’s perceptions about her, I don’t know how realistic this heroine would be.

I think it’s possible to write a believable story about an “overweight” or even an “obese” woman, who is not trying to lose weight, who is dealing with society’s perception of her body, and who is also having hot sex.  These women do exist in the real world.

What about Katie McAllister’s romance novels? I’ve never read her paranormals but her contemporaries (Corset Diaries, A Hard Day’s Knight) had plus-sized heroines and I don’t think that they felt they had to lose weight in order to do anything. (It has been awhile since I read them so I might be wrong…)

But here’s a question for us all: How do we feel about a less than McHotterson Hero? Big nose seems to be okay (and I think you’re right about historicals being more accepting of imperfections). Scars, sure. How about a pot belly? Uh-huh. Not so certain now, are we?

Well, there’s Miles Vorkosigan from Lois McMaster Bujold’s series - he’s not likely to win any beauty contests (the cover art on some of those books doesn’t help this impression in the slightest), but I have to say, he’s one of the “sexiest” heroes I’ve ever encountered in fiction.

Personally, I don’t really care about a heroine’s size, so long as her behavior makes sense and she’s not whiny about it (and I found Cannie Shapiro in Good in Bed to be extremely whiny). I think variety in terms of heroines’ sizes and looks is good, but I do agree that we’re not exactly seeing tons of rounder heroes, either. And I also agree that most women I know who are, say, higher than an American size 12 are not happy about their weight (full disclosure: I’m neither a 2 nor a 12). Body type matters - some women look and feel fine with bigger, curvier bodies; for others, it just doesn’t work, regardless of what society is or isn’t telling us. The key thing is to be healthy and to be happy with yourself, and yes, both can be hard to do.

Recommendations: Min from Bet Me is definitely good. I think Penelope in Romancing Mr. Bridgerton was a bit on the plump side, as was Cecilia, the heroine of A Woman of Virtue by Liz Carlyle. Both of those books are enjoyable (I prefer A Woman of Virtue). Celeste Bradley had a book with a plus-sized heroine but the title escapes me. And Claire in Outlander is not overweight, but she’s not exactly waif-thin, either, and neither she nor Jamie seem to be bothered by that.

Homely heroes?  I’d read ‘em.  Of course, I’m one of those drab, boring people who likes beta heroes, too :).  Mostly I like variety—in personality, in appearance, in status, etc.  It is nice when, at the end of the story, you can believe their lives together are going to be awesome, so for them to be comfortable financially, emotionally, mentally and maybe physically (with any health risks) is preferable.  But they don’t have to be gorgeous or insanely rich or the rulers of a make-believe country for me to believe in their personalized HEA.

SarahT—anything is possible, but that’s not necessarily the heroine people want to read about. I don’t want my men in romance and erotica to be unnatractive and I don’t want my women that way either.

I don’t read that type of fiction for a dose of reality but to escape into a world of impossible, unnatainable ideals, where the hero and heroine can ride horse back through grueling country for a week straight without showering, still look good, and then still have hot, tittilating, beautiful-looking sex.

If women are looking to their fiction to feel better about themselves, and they need “average” looking women to attain that—that’s a problem. You can have all the fat women you want in a book or movie happily fucking away with no regard to their appearance, but that won’t actually make anyone feel good about their own bodies or lives if they didn’t already have that confidence to begin with.

I think the reason it’s impossible to find fat heroines who aren’t super obnoxious and totally obsessed with losing weight to get their happily ever after is because the majority of those heroines are written by authors who are struggling with their own weight issues, and using these heroines as an outlet for their frustration.

It’s hard to say what I want to say here, because, being a fat person myself (no, not a “I don’t look like Jennifer Aniston” fat person, but an honest-to-God, over 100lbs. overweight fat person), I don’t have a lot of the same insecurity issues that some fat people have.  But I have fat friends, and I find that a lot of what they blame their weight for—loss of relationships, loss of friendships, general unhappiness—has nothing at all to do with the physical state of being fat, but the mental state of being fat, and being totally consumed with being fat, to the point that they equate being fat with being worthless.  They treat themselves that way, they let others treat them that way, and they use “I’m fat” as an excuse to not work on other glaring flaws with themselves.  They honestly seem to believe that if they just lose the weight, they’ll be instantly a better person, not just a thinner person with all the same baggage and insecurity.  And in books, you never see a heroine coming to that realization, ever.

In too many books with “fat” heroines, she usually does something stupid to fuck up her own life, and the reader is supposed to go, “Awww, it’s okay, sister, I feel you,” because she’s fat.  Like the situation with the roommates in Jemima J.  I remember reading that book and thinking, “Okay, Jemima, they’re not being rude to you because you’re fat… you come home, you go straight to your room, you avoid any contact with them because you’re so sure they’re hateful because they’re skinny and have social lives, and now that you’re getting skinny and ‘getting back at them’ I’m supposed to be pumping my fist and going, ‘Yeah, bitches, take that!’  No way in hell.  I’m not going to feel sorry for you because the only way you can have self confidence is by becoming what you think everyone wants you to be.”

Also, it seems you can’t have a book with a fat heroine without the skinny bitch trying to sabotage her, who she later has to get back at.  I’m sorry, but as a fat person, I can throw my own anecdotal evidence into the ring and say that I’ve never run into a skinny person who was out to destroy me just because I’m fat.  Actually, I’ve never run into anybody who was out to destroy me.  Is it possible that these skinny evil women in these books are not believable villains?  That perhaps *gasp* the real force the fat heroine needs to overcome is her own insecurity, her own belief that when she enters a room, everyone is talking about her weight, that no guy could ever possibly love her until her thighs no longer touch when standing up, that her sister deliberately picked yellow for her bridesmaids dresses in order to make her look fatter?

But no, those problems are never addressed, because the author wants to believe, and wants to make readers sympathetic to the belief, that fat women in our society are powerless little Cinderellas, waiting to be rescued from their fatness by a dreamy prince who will never, ever be tempted to look at the airbrushed perfection of a Playboy bunny, and that they’ve somehow won when that happens without losing weight.  I’m sorry, that’s just not the type of heroine I can root for.

This post has brought up a lot of really good points, Sarah, and it’s really timely.  I have a presentation for a local RWA group coming up about heroines, and I think I’ll put in a category about the fat heroine and all the pitfalls contained therein.

Re: “imperfect” heroes, C. E. Murphy’s Joanne Walker books have a romantic interest who’s described as a “superhero gone to seed.” Oh, until the third book when he abruptly turns out to be thinner than she thought, at which point I got all whiny. I liked his pot belly!

There was a book called Waking Beauty that came out a few years back, and it had a heroine who actually sounded unattractive at first (I forget, exactly…there was something about her face involved, as well as weight…), but then woke up gorgeous and had all that awareness of the social differences. She also had this romance aspect with a not-that-attractive video store clerk. The book’s by Elyse Friedman, and it was notable for a couple reasons, one of which was that it didn’t pull back punches or gloss over any of the emotions involved.

Isn’t Agnes in the Cruise/Bob Mayer latest Agnes & The Hit Man also a curvy cook?  But unlike Min, Agnes didn’t have any issues with her weight.  The only real mention (as I recall; I loaned my copy to my mom) is that the hero finds her shape lush & appealing.  Anyway, I had a mental image of Agnes as plus sized, but that was just what she was, not WHO she was.

Most of the time, I’m not fond of body issue stories (whether obesity or anorexia or anything between) because I want the problems to be bigger & deeper than that.  For me, coming of age stories & TV after-school specials can deal with looks & peer pressure & fashion magazine standards.  In the adult stories I read, I just prefer issues of a grander scale, and I don’t care where my heroine tips the scales.

In all honesty, I do want a hero who is tall, strong and lean (also smart, attentive and passionate).  I read romance for that fantasy.  I read comics’ biographies for the reality of life as a short & pasty man.

Katie MacAllister did one called “The Corset Diaries” which was sort of a reality show historical romance.  It was fun but eating wasn’t the focus of anything really.  But she did have some hysterical description from the heroine (who was happy to have some good sexin’ no matter what) who wanted to turn off the light because she didn’t want to be seen going “smooshy”.  And she was worried her boobs (all product of a size 18) would look funny going into her armpits (all boobs do this… it’s just a matter of time and gravity!).

The main focus though was on being a strong person.  Not becoming a different someone for somebody else.

There were a few others from her that mention that the woman is NOT model size but leave it up to the reader to assign actual physical persona.  Mostly though the focus becomes on the people themselves which is really more important than anything.

She DOES flip the other coin on the looks though.  She’s got her guys being average but decidedly what the heroine likes.  I think if most authors indicate that the man is normal but still nice (You can have nice abs and keep them under shirts… you can have a handsome guy without being movie star perfect… in fact some of the better looking men out there are not perfect and have more than a pock mark!).  As long as there is an indication that the HEROINE finds them panty wetting hot then that’s pretty much good for me.

Hi, Jody W! I’m with you. I like the gamma/beta males, and I like a guy who isn’t conventionally good-looking, too.

Jana said,

You can have all the fat women you want in a book or movie happily fucking away with no regard to their appearance, but that won’t actually make anyone feel good about their own bodies or lives if they didn’t already have that confidence to begin with.

It would be great if our confidence about our looks were completely separate from what society considers attractive, but I don’t know of any culture where it is.  I think the above scenario would make a huge difference.

I remember reading a Harlequin in the late 70s maybe early 80s, where the heroine was what was described as hugely fat ( probably a size 12 lol) , then she was in an accident and was in a coma and woke up to a beautifully thin and toned body. She probably caught her a greek cowboy billionaire too!

I think i fantasized about being in a coma till i was in my 20s and realized what being in a coma for an extended period of time REALLY did to ones body.

Now I’m in my 40s with bigger problems than my weight.. geeze gray hair, thinning eyebrows and eyelashes, saggy tits, cankles, you name it.  I need to do some body snatching to be thin and beautiful LOL.

Now, I might be a little biased because I work for the publisher that publishes this author, but Michele Ann Young has written two books: No Regrets and the upcoming The Lady Flees Her Lord. They are both regency romances, BUT the heroine in NR is plus sized, and the heroine in LFHL is average in all aspects of appearance. I think they are fabulous books and give a different type of heroine for that time period. They address a modern issue in a time where being thin and almost frail was considered a GOOD thing, and translates well into the modern controversies with models and actresses.

Great topic!

If you want to find fat heroes, look no further than sitcoms. Going as far back as Jackie Gleason the mismatch of beautiful wife with pot-bellied husband has been presented.

Slate has an article about the trend, though they’re a little more harsh about it than I would be.

http://www.slate.com/id/2111762/

this is why I write things as I see them, whether they’re in my head or in the real world.I also draw things, most times, as I see them as well. I’m overweight and have always been larger than every girl around me since I was born. Kids used to call me Ehren Fatten and sing it with the twilight zone theme tune.

:3 therefore, I enjoy writing about a woman who’s built like a valkyrie who likes chocolate a bit too much who’s able to kick ass and think on her feet a bit. But, as I said, I like to keep to what I see, be it inside my head or not, so if the character is thin, I write them thin, if the character is big, I write them big. I don’t have many thin characters, by the by. XD

now, to get paid for this head of mine… :: grin::

Back in the 80’s there was a Harlequin Temptation that featured an overweight Hero AND Heroine who meet at a fat farm! (I shit you not!) They fall in lust as they lose weight and then have to go back to their lives and relationships. About a year later, they meet again, back at the fat farm because they both gained the weight back! As they met, they looked into each other’s eyes and he said “Pizza” and she said “Ice Cream” and that was enough. Magic ensued.  I will think of the name anon.

ALSO do not forget Terry Pratchett! In GUARDS GUARDS Sam Vimes has an extremely sweet romance with Sybil Ramkin, a wealthy, large size aristocrat who is an awsome buttkicking heroine.

Also Agnes in MASKERADE is overweight and totally frustrated that her fabulous voice is unappreciated until the beautiful blonde stands in front of her and pretends to sing. It was a novel that showed a genuine understanding of how it feels to be fat and invisible. Mr P Rules!

I have to weigh in (haha) to agree AnimeJune and Esri Rose’s comments. I can’t think of a single regency or contemporary romance that has a fat alpha male, or even a hero with a bit of a gut. 

Jack Aubrey (from the Aubrey-Maturin series by Patrick O’Brien)was overweight, and a very believable hero, but those books are not romances.

And I don’t believe fat sitcom husbands are the same as romance heros.

Is this a double standard or am I missing something here?

AMEN, Tracy! At 5’6”, 209 lbs., I wore a size 18. I’ve lost nearly 20 lbs. and now wear a 16. (Have to lose weight for health reasons not for body image/feel good about myself reasons). Writers need to get a firm grip on body types. 6’4”, 170 does not well-muscled mantitty make. That’s skinny

LOL Silver! For sure. My Brother-in-law was 6’4”, 180 when my sister started dating him.  I called him “Ribs” because you could count them one by one!  He’s now 240 (bulked up and filled out as he matured)~much better!

I was 197 at my heaviest (I’m 5’3”) and wore a size 18.  I’ve lost 20 lbs (high blood pressure, not anymore!) and am a size 14 or 16 depending on who makes the clothes. I honestly lost the weight for health reasons. I was body conscious sometimes, but my hubby is so hot for me that I still had confidence. LOL

I think authors are best to stay away from exacts unless they know someone with the stats and that’s what they are going for.

As far as “imperfect” heroes.  I’d go for it.  My hubby is imperfect and I find him sexy as hell.  Really, I’d read a book about a guy with a pot belly. If the heroine found him sexy then we would too.  It’s all in perception.

But no, those problems are never addressed, because the author wants to believe, and wants to make readers sympathetic to the belief, that fat women in our society are powerless little Cinderellas, waiting to be rescued from their fatness by a dreamy prince who will never, ever be tempted to look at the airbrushed perfection of a Playboy bunny, and that they’ve somehow won when that happens without losing weight.  I’m sorry, that’s just not the type of heroine I can root for.

Jennifer, RIGHT ON! Your whole comment hit the nail on the head. I wish I could come to your presentation.

This whole conversation reminds me of the early days of bodice-rippers and virginal semi-rape because, like, you know, good girls can’t have consensual sex and like, you know, enjoy it! ARGH! Luckily, as our views about sex matured, so did our romances. Now if we could just get over the “heroines have to be dead sexy and heroes have to be hawt mancandy” attitude. Yes, there’s something to be said for “fantasy” but I prefer mine with a dose of reality. I’d like to think that the HEA could happen for me, or my best friend, or my daughter, or my hairdresser, or…the widow down the street. (I’ve been married 25 years so I don’t really count - but you know what I mean.)

If the weight issue is the main driving force of the book then I’m not buying. Period. Books about bigger sized women that are perplexed/bothered/bewildered by their weight bore me as much as the the dainty, fairy-like creature who is fading away from lack of appetite. If the heroine is whining then the book hits the wall.

If the hero is attracted to her and he’s lovin this female then she looks good enough for me and the author has done his/her job.  I don’t want to talk or read about calories and dress size when I’m in the middle of a fantasy/romance book.  This is suppose to be take-me-away-fiction. Not Prevention Magazine.

Thin, fat, tall, short, the description of the heroine is just that, it’s not suppose to be the story line. Is it? It isn’t in my TBR pile. I hope.

Fat hero? Is that big fat or sloppy fat? Sorry but I’ll take a double standard in my romance reading and the hell with politically correct.

For my heroine? Can she make the hero’s jaw drop? Then she’s just the right size.

The heroine of Theresa Medeiros’ The Bride And The Beast is fat, and the hero loves her that way.  Why are women supposed too look like concentration camp survivors? Personally, I tend to agree with the heroine of Leslie LaFoy’s Grin And Bear It: “Yeah, I could go on another diet. Yeah, I could join a health cluband get something resembling a shape other than roundish.  But it’s such a shallow thing to do.  I don’t enjoy deprivation or physical abuse.  If I did the diet and workout thing, it would only be because I want to look good to men.  And that is just way too pathetic.”  Of course, she doesn’t get any in the course of the book.  She meets two men who seem interested, but decides that one of them is so gorgeous that sex with him would be humiliating, and the other reminds her of vanilla pudding - sweet and bland.  I guess you could say her standards are too high. Spamword is Shall 61 as in ‘Shall 61 pounds stand between me and a fashionable figure?”

I thought Kelley Armstrong did a good job with Paige in Dime Store Magic and Industrial Magic. Paige is chubby, but still a kickbutt heroine.

One book that had a chubby main character and I loved was The Frog Prince by Jane Porter, but it’s chick lit and the previous example was Urban Fantasy. I don’t think I’ve ever read of a plus sized heroine in a straight up romance novel.

And, let me remind you, “fat” and “unattractive” are not the same thing. The only thing that makes a person “attractive” is if you are attracted to them. Looks can certainly help, but so can personality, humour, morals, personal taste, dreams and goals.

I mean - the cliche of the stick-thin gorgeous ICE QUEEN who’s the Hero’s Eeeeeevil Ex is a great example. She’s gorgeous (often more so than the heroine in contemporaries), but she’s not attractive to the hero.

I can think of several roly-poly (or at least not wash-board abbed) men I find attractive - true, most are comedians, but I find humour sexy. Ricky Gervais, Mark Addy, Seth Rogan…

Some are sexy on the basis of playing intelligent and dangerous men on televison - Robbie Coltrane on Cracker, Anthony Anderson on the Shield.

There’s Suzanne Brockmann’s Into the Night with Joan, who is a little overweight.  She’s angsty about it, but Mike does a great job of convincing her she’s hot and sexy and she doesn’t lose the weight to get her HEA.  In fact, she’s described later in the series as still Queen size, but hott.

There’s Laura Kinsale’s Seize the Fire, the Most Perfect Book of All Time, wherein Olympia is fat and Sherry loves her anyway.  He spends page and pages and pages saying how hot and sexy she is, and she doesn’t lose her weight either.

Those are the two I can think of.  Neither woman is really happy with her weight, but the heroes think they’re hot and they get their happy ending without losing the weight.  Ditto Min, in Bet Me as many people have already said.

Katie MacAllister did one called “The Corset Diaries” which was sort of a reality show historical romance.

Thank you!  I was trying like crazy to think of the name of this book and couldn’t!  The part I remember most is that when they put her in the corset, her breasts are all but entering the room about 5 minutes before she gets there and the hero is all agog.

There’s another book where the heroine is bigger and has a hard time believing that the movie star hero really wants her when he could have any twig-sized starlet he wanted.  It’s called Jude’s Law, by Lori Foster.  While it’s not one of my favorite Foster books (I tend to prefer her mixed-martial-arts fighter books), it’s very enjoyable.

Excerpted from the back cover:  “There’s only so much frustration a guy can handle before he gets a little nutty.  For Jude Jamison, his frustration has a name—May Price.  She’s everything the former Hollywood bad boy actor came to Stillbrook, Ohio, hoping to find:  open, honest, lovable, and full of those luscious curves you don’t find on stick-figure starlets—curves May doesn’t seem to appreciate in herself.  Every time Jude tries to get close to the skittish business woman, to take her in his arms, she thinks he’s joking.  Joking?  Joking does not involve lots of cold-shower therapy.”

Regardless of the implication on the back cover, the book is really much less to do about her weight and more about her learning to value herself more.  Granted her weight does come up, however, it’s because she has a hard time believing that Mr. Rich-and-Famous is really interested in her and not just toying with her because he’s stuck out in the middle of nowhere and he’s bored.  That said, I don’t recall thinking that May spent an inordinate amount of time whining about her weight.

Didn’t have time to peruse comments so far, so this may be a repeat:

NO REGRETS by Michelle Ann Young, Sourcebooks Casablanca

historical romance, i think it’s one of the nominees for favorite book of the year in a list whose name I forget

Suzann Ledbetter in her direction books has Hannah Garvey.  She starts out uncomfortable with her size and her age in the first book and by the time she and The Sheriff are engaged she’s comfortable within her skin and with being five years older than the sexy sheriff. She’s not angsty, she’s real.  Complaining about her hair color and seeing the micro-imperfections in herself no one else sees or pays attention to.  Something I think more of us do than are willing to admit to.

Don’t know whether they’re available in the US but an Australian author named Kerry Greenwood, who is plus-sized herself, has a series of mysteries featuring a zaftig heroine who used to be a professional CPA in suits and now owns a bakery and is happy with her size. First one is EARTHLY DELIGHTS, in which she gets a gorgeous Israeli detective boyfriend and so far has kept him :->

As for imperfect heroes, you can’t do better than Carla Kelly - most of her heroes are not ultra-confident Corinthian types. Even if you don’t want imperfect heroes, I’d recommend her books, which feature very believable characters.

[[Considering that I’ve never met a plus sized, “average,” or fat woman who isn’t obsessed or concerned or worried about her weight and society’s perceptions about her, I don’t know how realistic this heroine would be.]]

Pleased to meet you, Jana. I’m plus-sized (6’ tall, size 22), have incredibly great sex with my husband, wear the clothes I want to wear (get compliments all the time), and don’t obsess at all about weight. Could I lose a few pounds? Of course! Do I worry about it? Not at all.

Don’t get me started on numbers. I’m 6’ tall. 165 lbs is hotness on me.

I like my heroines offbeat for looks. The lady who is plain enough to pose as a man. The one who is too plump and curvy for her time. The one who is all austere angles in an era of curves. Conjoined twins.

My heroes are mostly ordinary. Middle-aged, a little paunchy from a desk job. Too short to be taken seriously. The guy who wears a beard to cover up an ugly scar on his jaw. Older, tired and limping from being shot.

I’d just like to see more bodies, period, in books. Make it fit the story.  But don’t whine. Whiny heroines—who are not clearly putting on an act—are a deal killer.

Horse16. Yep. that’s me.

Let’s get real about this.  Most (not all, but most) readers don’t want to encounter heroines beyond a size 12 any more than they want to encounter heroes and heroines beyond the age of 40.  Big-name authors might be able to get away with “bigger or older” pairings, but most writers will stick with young-and-gorgeous, just to be on the safe side.

The Western media’s pretty much got us by the ‘nads when it comes to standards of desirability.

Wow, Jennifer Armintrout! What you said, totally.

One thing (among many) that gets on my nerves in romances is the fascination with unusually tall men. It’s just a little too “me big man, you little woman” for me.

MASSIVE SPOILER ALERT!

The only book I can recall at the moment with an overweight hero is Carla Kelly’s Regency, Libby’s London Merchant.  Part of what made the book enjoyable was who got the girl—not the handsome, rakish Duke, but the bumbling and chubby country doctor.

Speaking for myself ...

When I was fat (5’1” and size 16), I majorly wanted to read about fat heroines.  The reason is obvious. 

Then nearly three years ago I was diagnosed with Type 2 diabetes, suffered eye damage, high blood pressure, etc., and everything changed.  It took two years, but with a very serious life style change (diabetic diet and LOTS of exercise) I am now a size 4 or 6, and I have never felt or LOOKED better in my life.

I would NEVER NEVER NEVER go back to being a fat woman.  NEVER.  Not just because of health reasons, but ... let’s be honest here:  given the choice, how many of YOU would honestly chose to be a size 16 over a size 6? 

And frankly, “curvy” and “fat” are NOT interchangeable.  I am “curvy”—34 D.  But fat?  No way, no how. 

I don’t want to read about fat women now, and I surely don’t want to read about fat men.  It doesn’t feed my fantasy.  Sorry. 

If I’m going to invest a few (or many) hours losing myself in a romance, I’m not going to do it trying to “identify” as a fat heroine.  Sorry—but been there, done that, and that t-shirt is just way too big now.

Don’t have time to read all of this but I can mention a Regency where the hero is plump—Joan Aiken’s The Smile of a Stranger I think. It doesn’t have any sex but I really liked the characters. 

A book I hated—in fact I never got past the first few pages with the set-up that the heroine was told by her boss that she would never advance in the company because her uncontrolled weight was a sign of an uncontrolled mind or some such crap.  Instead of getting a lawyer and suing his butt off she went on some weight loss program like Jenny Craig and lost so much weight that she was won a cruise from the weight loss program.  At this point the book went sailing across the room and I have successfully eradicated the title and author’s name from my mind.

I’m not sure if I imposed my own body image on some of the books I’ve read, but I’m noticing a lot of what people are calling “plus size heroines” here are really just rounder, more realistic women, but not actually fat.

I also don’t like most “fat” romances because of the whineyness (I forget who posted it, but I agree with you, whoever you are!). When I moved to Japan, all of a sudden my size M was a size XXL, and people reacted accordingly—men in charge would make rude comments about diets, female coworkers made jokes about my size, etc. Did I feel like crap when they did that? Of course I did! But did it define my entire life in Japan? No! My life story is about my experiences, the people I meet and the things I do. My life story is not about coming to grips with my body.

You can argue that I had a healthy body image from being an M in America for so long, but reading a book after book about woman vs. her self image gets old. I certainly don’t mind her battling body issues while also doing something else, but if her weight defines her whole story, I don’t want to read it.

There was the “Living Large” series of anthologies featuring Donna Hill, Brenda Jackson and others.  The second book is “Big Girls Don’t Cry” and the third anthology is “A Whole Lotta Love.”  You’d have to find them used, though.  “A Cinderella Affair” by A.C. Arthur is also good.

rebyj said on…
07.26.08 at 12:34 PM |

I remember reading a Harlequin in the late 70s maybe early 80s, where the heroine was what was described as hugely fat ( probably a size 12 lol) , then she was in an accident and was in a coma and woke up to a beautifully thin and toned body. She probably caught her a greek cowboy billionaire too!

Barbara Cartland!  The heroine had just been forced into a marriage and for some reason after the ceremony and before the sexoring, she fell into a coma for about three years.  When she woke us she was gorgeous and toned—uh huh, just like Kay Hooper had a character in one of her Fear books wake up from a six month coma with a great manicure.  I really laughed at this one.

Also I think we may be getting a bit close to the self insertion discussion here.  I don’t care what size the heroine or the hero is as long as the book is well written. 

Seize the Fire is a favorite book but not because of the heroine’s size.  It’s the author’s skill.  And it might be used as evidence ito support Armintrout’s argument because the only pictures I have seen of the author show her as thin.

let’s be honest here:  given the choice, how many of YOU would honestly chose to be a size 16 over a size 6?

Holy projecting weight issues, Batman!  Maybe I’m out of the norm here, but I’m pretty sure that being fat is the result of my choice to eat a steady diet of cookies and candy.  I choose to be fat. 

I don’t see what your weight loss has to do with other people’s reading choices.  Don’t like romance with overweight heroines?  Fine.  But you seem to be saying, “Hey, all you have to do is get skinny and you won’t mind whether or not people like you are correctly portrayed in the books you like to read.”  Which is kind of weak, yo.

All I can think of, off the top of my head, are the fake plus-size heroines, especially during the Regency-era historicals. Eloisa James’s Josephine and Annabel from that quartet (uh, Pleasure for Pleasure and Kiss Me, Annabel! respectively) were both roundy women who didn’t look all that great in the empire-waist sack-dresses of the era, but who looked great in other clothes. I bet they were probably size 14 or so by today’s standards, but hourglass figures, so of course they were amazingly beautiful in the right clothing. Or no clothing.

(And no cellulite or thigh dimples, either. Nor body odor.)

That series also had an overweight hero . . . until he stopped drinking and of course turned out to have the perfect romance hero build under the beer gut. *sigh*

Edith Layton had an unattractive hero, can’t remember his name . . . he wasn’t fat, though. Rail-thin, with a horsey face, and the most attractive voice EVER, apparently.

let’s be honest here:  given the choice, how many of YOU would honestly chose to be a size 16 over a size 6?

And, uh, this has to do with “What books have you read with good plus-sized heroines?” how?

Well, there’s Miles Vorkosigan from Lois McMaster Bujold’s series - he’s not likely to win any beauty contests (the cover art on some of those books doesn’t help this impression in the slightest), but I have to say, he’s one of the “sexiest” heroes I’ve ever encountered in fiction.

Amen to that sister!!!

My heroes are mostly ordinary. Middle-aged, a little paunchy from a desk job. Too short to be taken seriously. The guy who wears a beard to cover up an ugly scar on his jaw. Older, tired and limping from being shot.

The older, tired and limping from being shot, describes my hubby perfectly. So does the paunchy part, although he is no longer middle aged- unless we are now living well over 100!! But I haven’t kicked him out of bed yet!!

I am around 5’3” and finally am under 200lbs. I think. I don’t do scales, even at the dr’s office. My figuring on that is this- first, it doesn’t sabatoge me when I do my exercise and eat right or binge every now and then. I wear a size 16/18 down from a 20. So as far as I am concerned that is good.

Secondly, I don’t have health problems because of my weight. I used to be a size 0-2, before I got preggers with my daughter almost 25 years ago. Then I got sick. Then we discovered I have intense allergies, ok, deadly, to most over the counter medicines. So I occassionally end up on steroids. The side effects suck, but they work.

I do not have high blood pressure, diabetic problems, cholesterol problems or any other myriad health problems that people automatically assume over weight (or obese or any other term you want), people have. When they ask me what meds I am on, I love the looks I get when I tell them Flintstone chewable vitamins and the occassional Tylenol. That’s it. I like busting stereotypes.

I did lose 35lbs (I was measuring then) by dropping soda, including diet soda, from my diet totally.

As for books, if anyone is still reading this, Good in Bed by Jennifer Weiner is probably my favorite. She’s large, writes for a magazine, her ex makes the mistake of writing a magazine series about dating a plus sized woman (for a competitor) and she gets even. And she even gets her HEA with someone else. I laughed quite a bit when I read it. The sequel that just came out was quite good too, although a tear jerker. And she was still not a skinny minny.

let’s be honest here:  given the choice, how many of YOU would honestly chose to be a size 16 over a size 6?

by today’s standards, Marilyn Monroe would be around a size 12. She sure as hell had no problems getting men!!!

Even at my size 16, I never lack for finding someone to flirt with. I may be married, but I still get the offers. And I love to keep up my flirting skills. Hubby on the other hand, just rolls his eyes. Cause he knows who I am going home with. And he just isn’t the flirting kind.

Thank you Sarah and everyone for all the recs (and that awesome list).  I was the one who asked about the books.  It’s been fascinating to see the responses.

I’m a fat woman and working on the ever challenging issue of building my self-esteem in a society that is not terribly accepting of women with bodies as large as or larger than mine.  Having worked with women in my therapy practice who deal with body issues (and yes this really isn’t just an issue that fat women face), I know that having role models or positive images in media is really helpful.  That, along with my own desire to read fat-positive fiction, is what spurred my interest.

I second the issue about heroes who are not conventionally attractive.  Although is skinny and strong, my partner is a geek who definitely presents that way.  But I think he’s sexy as hell!

My word: lay46!

On the “double standard”:  I think some women find it easier than others to empathize with a plus-size heroine, whether that’s due to personal experience or just a different imagination.  But trying to find a less-than-hot hero attractive is harder—let’s face it, most romance readers are straight women, so it’s the ability to imagine being attracted to the male that is the main ingredient.

And what about M/M romance?  Do both men need to be hotties?

Me, I’d welcome a few more books with physically imperfect heroes, but that’s because I’m older (and wiser?  more cynical?) and prefer a bit more realism in my romance. 

FWIW, my daughter-in-law (to be, in six days!) is a gorgeous and confidant plus-size lady.  She doesn’t stress out about her weight, and most of the men I know (including my tall, skinny and handsome son!) find her very attractive.

I’m plus size, and I don’t see the “plus size girl gets the super mega hottie” storyline as realistic. In real life, we see far more hot women with “imperfect” men than hot men with “imperfect” women (though I know there are exceptions to every rule…yada yada yada).

I read a contemporary romance once in which the heroine constantly complained about her weight and considered herself fat. Then we find out she weighed 135 pounds. Shit.

Let me add ...

My husband is a handsome man, fit and strong ... but paraplegic.  Imperfect?  Yeah.  But damn, he’s hot!  He’s a frickin’ chick magnet, frankly, which I find gratifying ... though sometimes I do experience a twinge of jealousy. 

Let me add, too ... (after having read some of the comments following my earlier post) ...

... that I far prefer being a size 6 to a size 16.  I have been both.  This is MY preference. 

If you have worn both sizes and still chose the size 16, then ... you go, girl.

I prefer romance novels with average-looking heroes and heroines, though perhaps there aren’t very many of them. My favorite is

The Raven Prince

by Elizabeth Hoyt. Neither hero nor heroine is overweight, but the heroine is described as plain and mousy, and the hero has smallpox scars. I find characters with imperfections easier to relate to, and more interesting than those who personify today’s standards of beauty.

I don’t see what your weight loss has to do with other people’s reading choices.  Don’t like romance with overweight heroines?  Fine.  But you seem to be saying, “Hey, all you have to do is get skinny and you won’t mind whether or not people like you are correctly portrayed in the books you like to read.” Which is kind of weak, yo.

Fat heroines don’t feed MY particular fantasy—as I said in my earlier post. 

I’m not going to spend $8.00 putting myself in a fat-chick’s shoes.  I want a fantasy—so I’m taking it all the way, girlfriend!  I’m gonna be slim, beautiful, and witty!  And I’m gonna catch me a smart, good-hearted hottie!

Does the plus-size heroine feed YOUR fantasy?  I guess it does.  So go for it!  Read, write, and live the “plus size” romance. 

I wish you all the best at it!

If there is a huge market for fat heroines and paunchy heroes, it is my guess that publishers will fill that gap.  Time—and sales—will tell.

This may qualify as a “faux” plus-size heroine, but Catherine Anderson has a novella in the anthology Tall, Dark and Dangerous where the heroine Charlotte believes she is fat, but the hero thinks she has curves in all the right places.  It is one of my favorite stories ever.  I’ve read it countless times.

that I far prefer being a size 6 to a size 16.  I have been both.  This is MY preference.

That’s great, Wanda Sue, but I don’t know if you missed the point that we don’t care what size you are. We care what books you read.

One book I enjoyed with a “larger” woman was “The Perfect Wife” by Lynsay Sands.  It is about a couple with an arranged marriage, and while there is some angst from the Heroine about her weight (largely because she had been told all her life how huge she is), the hero likes her exactly how she is.  From the back cover”

“Paen Gerville longed for a lively, well-rounded woman, one whose plump breast would cushion his head after the lonely, harsh life of a solitary fighting know.  At first his wife-to-be promised no such delights—her form was unbending, her health apparently fragile as she fainted into his arms after their first kiss.  But one split bridal gown later, her assets were eye-poppingly apparent and Paen could only grin as he anticipated the surprises yet to come on his wedding night with The Perfect Wife”

I ran into a Harlequin Presents a couple of months ago, “The Sicilian’s Virgin Bride,” (which I kept reading as “The Sicilian Virgin’s Bride,” but that would pr’ly be a very different book…).  Anyway, the heroine had grown up as a very curvy, non-skinny girl surrounded by thin, obsessive model-types, and never considered herself to be attractive. She flees from her new husband during the wedding reception, and they don’t see each other again for something like six months, maybe a year.

I was assuming that she would have done the usual “Depressed Romantic Heroine Starvation Diet”.... except she ended up at a farm with a family who were enthusiastic about feeding her. So, she came back and weighed even more than when she’d left!

More importantly, the hero found her gorgeous just as she was—and when she realized that his problem wasn’t that he thought she was fat and unattractive, it was that he found her incredibly sexy and it was driving him nuts, she not only got a massive self-confidence boost, she proceeded to attack his personal complexes with a sledgehammer. And also with lingerie. ;-)

After growing up reading endless variations on heroines moping and starving and ending up even more pale and waiflike by the time the repentent hero comes knocking at their door, I thought it was great to see a heroine who gained weight, and a hero who thought she was insanely sexy just the way she was.

JaneDrew

I can’t think of many romances where the heroine was described as being plump or overweight. “Beauty And The Beast” by Teresa Medeiros, someone said, had the heroine being larger, but if I remember correctly [Spoiler!!]she ended up losing the weight for one reason or another somewhere near the end (and the hero being annoyed/upset by the change).

I personally would love to read more romance novels that had heroines with not-perfectly-proportional bodies. Most of my weight is centered quite firmly on my ass and hips. My sister’s pretty much the opposite. I want to read about a pear-shaped heroine with a fantastic Queen-tribute-worthy ass, or one who has skinny limbs and large breasts, or pretty much anything other than super thin and perfectly hourglass.

I was a 6 for all of three weeks in fifth grade. Then I grew hips and 3 more inches of leg, and was in an 8. I wore a 14 through high school and a 16 through college. And I defy anyone to tell me a 16 is fat on me.
Pictoral proof.
I’d rather be a 16 than a 26. But after 4 babies, I doubt even my skeleton is a size 6.

Ev, we haven’t sold the one with our limping shot gunslinger yet. But we’re hoping.

SonomaLass, I write a lot of m/m. My guys aren’t adonises. They come in all shapes and sizes. Some of them aren’t even well-hung. (And some of them are just plain scary in that department) I get tired of perfect bodies.

[[Does the plus-size heroine feed YOUR fantasy?  I guess it does.  So go for it!  Read, write, and live the “plus size” romance.]]

Why does it have to be plus size romance? Does the sexing get bigger? The books longer? The font thicker?

Hmmmmm

I don’t know if anyone’s mentioned it—I may have missed in the comments, but Susan Vaught’s BIG FAT MANIFESTO has the most irreverent heroine who is extremely “plus sized.” It’s YA, but it’s one of the best books I’ve read. It’s funny, sassy, yet has its serious side, too. Hard to explain. (And I call myself a writer. Sheesh)

The Amazon link—
http://www.amazon.com/Big-Fat-Manifesto-Susan-Vaught/dp/1599902060/ref=sr_1_11?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1217134252&sr=1-11

Susan Vaught’s site:
http://susanvaught.com/

Jamie has the kind of sass and attitude I wish I’d had at her age. Maybe even now.

Sue Ann Jaffarian has a plus-size heroine, Odelia Grey, who’s also over 40. Though they are mysteries there is some romance. Her heroine is not whiny about her weight and is described as attractive and is pursued by various men. She even gets married in book 2, Thugs and Kisses.
http://www.sueannjaffarian.com/

I think WandaSue and Stephanie are onto something with the question, what do readers want in their romance?  Do they want fantasy?  Or do they want to see themselves?  Or some combination of the two?  Judging from e-publishers, there’s room for everything.  Judging from what New York puts out, there’s a preferred look at the moment that brings in most of the money.  But have you been to NYC?  All the girls there ARE thin and awesomely dressed.

by today’s standards, Marilyn Monroe would be around a size 12. She sure as hell had no problems getting men!!!

I was kind of disappointed to find out that that’s a myth:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1385806

Dress sizes have changed so much over time that people get confused about what equals what, I guess. And I remember getting steaming mad at Elizabeth Hurley commenting on how if she were as fat as Marilyn Monroe, she’d kill herself (paraphrased.) Ugh! No matter her dress size, that attitude is ridiculous, and totally unattractive.

Ah, The Raven Prince! I LOVED how the heroine was truly plain, and so was the hero—and no magical beautification took place during the story to change that, either! Except perhaps for the beautification of love and attraction, maybe. Love it.

Min annoyed the crap out of me in Bet Me, but that was a refreshing book in the heroine’s size department.

Okay, before I go to bed, just want to amend my Marilyn Monroe statement: Snopes says MM’s weight was in the range of 118-140, so at the 140 end, the size 12 seems reasonable (right?).

http://www.snopes.com/movies/actors/mmdress.asp

Yay! And goodnight.

romantic suspense rather than straight romance, but I enjoyed Meg Cabot’s ‘Size Twelve is not Fat’ and ‘Size Fourteen is not Fat Either’ books with a plus-sized heroine (Heather Wells).

Plus of course Crusie’s ‘Bet Me’ which others have mentioned.

What Snopes says about Marilyn is:

“A woman of Marilyn’s height, at the extreme of Marilyn’s weight range (140lbs), would probably wear a size 12 dress today (which is the same dress size listed for Marilyn in the the book The Unabridged Marily. Perhaps at one time she did wear dresses that might have been considered size 16 or even 18 back in the 1950’s, but she almost certainly did not wear dresses equivalent to today’s size 16.”

They go on to note that a dress of hers was actioned in ‘94 and was found to be a British size 16, which is an American size 12.

Probably more relevant is the info on US standard clothing sizes from Wikpedia, which notes that current US sizes are SIX SIZES larger than the standards originally set from statistical data in the 40s and 50s.  In other words, size 6 in the old standard is what is now a size 0, and a size 12 in the 1950s would be a size 6 today.  British sizes are, on average 4 sizes larger.

So maybe Marilyn was a size 16 at some point (tho’ what I read was size 14), but that’s a size 10 today. For a point of reference (and because she called Marilyn fat): according to celebsrate.com Elizabeth Hurley wears a size 6—or a size 12 in Marilyn’s day. Drew Barrymore wears an 8 (i.e., the same as Marilyn’s 14).

Which makes my size 16/18…a reason to cut back on carbs.

And frankly, “curvy” and “fat” are NOT interchangeable.  I am “curvy”—34 D.  But fat?  No way, no how.

It’s interesting, because a couple of weeks ago someone I’d met for the first time at a conference described me as blonde and curvy in her blog…and then retracted it the next day, because she didn’t want people to think I was fat.  Curvy has become a euphemism for fat…which makes it hard to describe yourself when you’re a girl with a waist and breasts—curves, in fact—but not actually fat.

Everyone has a different idea of what fat is, and I agree with the people who’ve said that putting a number on it doesn’t help.  Saying someone weighing 200lbs is fat doesn’t help in the slightest—especially if you have no idea how tall that person is.  I was irritated when the Bridget Jones movies were made, that so much emphasis was put on her being overweight.  I read the books well before the films came out, and I never once got the idea she was fat.  If anything, looking at her recorded weights throughout the book, I thought she must be either fairly slim or very short.

Has anyone mentioned Size 12 Is Not Fat by Meg Cabot?  A title that had both me and my best friend in stitches, because in the UK, a size 12 is definitely not fat—it’s equivalent to a US 8.  The heroine there was a little too defensive about her weight for me to believe she was happy with it.

I’m not generally a fan of the plus-sized heroine, because quite often it just seems to be a shorthand for saying it’s okay to be fat.  Well…again this depends on your definition of fat, but hands up who actually thinks it’s a good idea?  Any doctor will tell you it’s unhealthy.  Unhealthy and sexy are really unmixy things.

I know Bet Me has been mentioned many times.  What was wonderful about Cal and Min’s relationship was what he gave her—acceptance of her size and shape.  Was she fat, or was she just bigger than her skinny sister?  Min hates her body and punishes it, but once she starts dressing for her figure and enjoying food, she’s a lot happier, and it’s Cal who facilitates this.

Jude Deveraux has an overweight heroine in Wishes, who is magically made thinner (literally: her fairy godmother does it) but it doesn’t make her happier.  The godmother is the one who is made to realise that thinness doesn’t equate happiness.  It’s also a historical—late C19th, I think—during which the fashionable shape for a woman was larger than today (but not to the degree of actual fatness!).  Historically speaking, a thin person couldn’t afford proper meals, worked off all their calories, or was consumptive.  Not sexy.

Is it possible that these skinny evil women in these books are not believable villains?

Oh yes.  Yes yes yes.  More lazy shorthand—thin and beautiful equals evil.  It actually reveals more about the psyche of the overweight character…and not in a nice way.  Have you noticed how it’s so often the heroine who trumpets that she’s a real shape who spouts this viewpoint?  Well, if she’s so happy about that, then why does she hate the thin person?

I agree with Cat: Thin = evil (if it’s from the plump perspective)and curves = fat (I think this comes from personal ads).
I can’t recall a single plus-size heroine who doesn’t lose the weight in the end. Nor can I recall a hero who wants more than a handful… How sad!
I like my protagonists to be flawed - it only adds to the tension in the story and the obstacles they overcome to HEA.
I found a list of books here:
http://www.romantictimes.com/books_themes.php?theme=126

I think WandaSue and Stephanie are onto something with the question, what do readers want in their romance?  Do they want fantasy?  Or do they want to see themselves?  Or some combination of the two?

Jessa Slade, that is exactly the point. Obviously I can only speak for myself, but I do want a great big whopping escapist fantasy. BUT I find it easier to get carried away if I can really identify with the heroine. And in my case, this is way easier with a fat heroine than with a skinny one. Also, it always cheers me up to see the fat girl get the man. Which brings me to another thing - I agree with one the earlier posts (sorry, can’t find you name to quote you) who said that “as long as the heroine finds him knicker-dampening sexy, that is good enough for me.” If that means scars, pock marks and limping from being shot - bring it on

I am perfectly willing to spend a lot of money on books, and I fully expect the publishing industry to service me. Erm. I don’t quite mean that the way it sounds, but you know what I mean.

I was going to mention Terry Pratchett and Sibyl Ramkin Vimes as well, but someone beat me to it.  Pratchett’s done an excellent job creating a variety of protagonists with different body types, and making the reader care about them for who they are.

Many years ago I read a mystery called The Thin Woman in which the heroine was to inherit a fortune on the condition that she lose weight.  The gigolo she’d hired to pose as her boyfriend for a family gathering turned out to be a gourmet chef who helped get her on a healthy (but tasty and satisfying) weight loss plan.  I thought it was a pretty funny premise at the time, but it sounds as if it’s become somewhat of a cliche now.

(And FWIW, the heroine of my Work In Progress has a plus-sized roommate who gets laid far more often than she does.)

You know, I love books with good plus size heroines. Not heroines who lose weight through stress (Good in Bed—even if it doesn’t last), heroines who lose weight “for health”—(He loves Lucy—because the science is frankly contradictory on whether or not the actual weight loss is helpful, as opposed to eating habits and exercise) or women who bitch about their weight (plus size or not).

I just want a hero who loves the woman for who she is, whatever size. That’s why I liked Night Play so much, and even Bet Me, because the heroes loved their BBW women and the women finally realized that being a particular size means nothing—happiness is not a size. Confidence is not a size.

Cindy Myers “Learning Curves” is also a good one, as long as you don’t read her alternate ending, which is one of those “loses weight for health reasons” endings—god, I hate those. Can’t you just leave it with “he loves her no matter what” and be done with it?

By the way, lest publishers thing that only BBW are into BBW novels, it’s totally not true—I don’t really qualify, and I love the subgenre. I just get so sick of reading books (or talking to women) who obsess over food and weight. Haven’t we realized yet this is marketing to keep us unhappy and buying diet products?

By the way, if you’ve never seen the hilarious video on Yogurt, the wolmen’s diet food, you’ve missed out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffIo2VAi_qg

Meredith (who thinks women should channel all this crap about food and weight into something more useful—revolution, anyone?)

BET ME is one of my favourite romances, and I appreciated that Jennifer Crusie tried to leave out all mention of Min’s actual size- never mentioning how tall she is, or her exact weight. I read a comment of hers once where she said that she wanted people to come up with their own version of what “overweight” was and then impose it on Min, which I thought was very clever.

Except on my millionth re-read, I realized that when Min is at the dressmaker’s trying on the corset for her sister’s wedding, it mentions that her size 8 corset is way too small. But they strap her into it anyway, causing great discomfort. (They don’t go with this size corset in the end, obviously.)

This bothers me because if you can squeeze into a size 8 corset, even in discomfort, I don’t consider you to be overweight. It depends on the lacing in the back, obviously, but I highly doubt Min is bigger than a size 12 or 14. Which to me, is not nearly large enough to herald Min as an overweight-and-accepting-it heroine, but that’s just my own take on it.

I have a confession—I work near a church attended by a lot of African Americans.  When there is an event, usually a wedding, I love to watch the congregation arrive.  No one is model thin and a lot are quite overweight, but the style the ladies show is amazing.  Like big beautiful birds of paradise they come in on the arms of dapper men who seem very happy to be seen with them. 

I stand and watch,  muttering to a friend like Cinderella’s ugly stepsister—- WHERE do they get those clothes?  And the hats!  Turbans in jewel tones and lovely flat saucer hats with exotic trimmings. 

So where are the heroines with confidence and style equal to that I see in those ladies?  If not at the beginning, then at the end of the story?

Meredith (who thinks women should channel all this crap about food and weight into something more useful—revolution, anyone?)

Meredith, I think I love you. :)

Regarding my aforementioned Edith Layton odd-looking hero, I thought it was the Earl of Drummond (Drum) from The Conquest, but he seems to be described as “striking” in the book blurb, so who knows.

this has been an interesting discussion so far
I enjoy reading for escapism, but I also enjoy reading books with overweight women.  I’m Asian and a size 12/14.  Usually you’ll never find an Asian female character who is overweight.  I think I’m overweight, so I don’t care what everyone else thinks of me.  Please don’t try and argue with me here, but I do have a gut and I don’t find it flattering.  Sometimes reading that gorgeous men find size 18 women beautiful is comforting.  It relieves the little voice in my head that tells me that men will not find my body unattractive.  (Granted I’m married and my husband adores me, and plenty of men have told me they think I’m hot).  Sometimes, I want to live a fantasy and read about tiny, independent, feisty, genius women because I want to live out a fantasy.  I’ll take both.

Thanks for this topic!  I think most women obsess about their weight no matter what size they are.  My friend is a 4 and she’s always pitching this bone at her hip and calling it “fat.”  *rolling eyes*  I’ve had babies and have fluxuated between single-digit and double-digit sizes.  Although my self esteem isn’t tied to the scale, I can always relate to a heroine who feels self-conscious or less than perfect.

I don’t think anyone’s mentioned Bella Andre’s TAKE ME.  It features a real plus-sized woman, and it’s an erotic romance.

That’s great, Wanda Sue, but I don’t know if you missed the point that we don’t care what size you are. We care what books you read.

and obviously you missed my post:  I think a little deeper reading of my opinions would have given you the answer ... Scroll back up and read my posts in their entirety.  Perhaps it was too late at night for you to get the gist of them all.

Or read on ....

I spend my hard-earned money feeding my romance fantasy—and that doesn’t include a fat heroine with whom I CANNOT identify any longer. 

When I was a Size 16, there existed inside of me a very wistful and hopeful Size 6 ... but if anybody asked me, I’d deny it til I was blue with indignation.  I told myself—and anybody patient enough to care—that I was “happy” and “content” and “secure” being fat.  (Deep inside, I wasn’t). 

So I’d read the “Plus size” heroine romances to feed that sentiment, and searched high and low for a heroine with whom I could identify—and who could validate my fatness.  It fed the fantasy OF THAT TIME IN MY LIFE.  It made me feel secure that, even heavy, I could find and keep a hottie for a mate… though I knew too well, from working in a mostly male environment (US Navy), that the REALITY is something else entirely. 

(Fortunately, I am married to a great guy who never seemed to notice that I’d gained 50 pounds from the time we’d first begun dating.)

So ... the point:

Do we prefer to read romances that feed our fantasy (of being slim, trim, and with awesome clothes?) ... or that validate our “reality” (not so slim, not so fashion-based)? 

Pick your preference.

I’m sure there are enough writers out there to feed whatever floats your boat.

I think this is a brilliant topic and as an author, appreciate all the comments made here. I’ve been writing with plus-sized heroines for my entire career (a whole seven years). I’ve tried very hard to write my books with the idea that the women involved are happy with their size, though showing some minor doubt here and there, as all women have about their bodies. I wanted to appeal to all types of readers, showing how “imperfections” at any size can be an issue for the heroine. In the majority of my books, my heroine’s “plus size” is a description, not a plot device. I wrote my books because it was a category of women I could identify with, but couldn’t find in the industry.

After writing my first book, I found a whole community of women who wanted to read (and write) books with plus-sized heroines, some of whom have since been published, and some who have not. When I realized how much interest there was for this kind of book, I started a publishing company with a line that specializes in plus-sized heroines, called Dangerous Curves. Some of the books do have women who focus on their weight as part of the story, other books (like mine) have women who are overweight, but don’t whine about it through the whole book. None of the books have the women losing weight to get their man and their HEA. We have several different genres, including mysteries, romances, erotica, paranormals, anthologies, series books.

I’ve enjoyed a lot of other books with plus-sized heroines, but have also found a lot of wall-bangers that did nothing but make me angry. A plus-sized woman does not have to lose weight to find her man (hello!), nor to be happy. Do I have some body issues? Sometimes. Do I live a normal and happy life with my fab husband who loves every hill and valley on my bod? You bet yer ever lovin’ life I do.

DS thanks for the book title! OMG Barbara Cartland, my mom read everything of hers, I bet they’re all still in a box in the house somewhere.

Wanda Sue, your point about not feeding your fantasy is well-taken, but your wording regarding sizes was awfully impolite.

The Wry Hag managed to say pretty much what you said (“Most [not all, but most] readers don’t want to encounter heroines beyond a size 12 . . . “) without insulting people personally; she blamed it on a general flaw in society. (”. . . any more than they want to encounter heroes and heroines beyond the age of 40.”)

You, on the other hand, made it personal. (”[L]et’s be honest here:  given the choice, how many of YOU would honestly chose to be a size 16 over a size 6?”) I understand that for you, it’s a personal issue (because you used to be a size 16 and now you’re a size 6) but you do come across as lacking in sympathy for those who are not a size 6.

Feeding one’s fantasy of being thin and hot, or reflecting one’s reality of neither, are not the only two reasons to read romance novels. It’s an oversimplified dichotomy. I am not plus-sized, and yet I enjoy reading novels with plus-sized heroines. I enjoy diversity in my heroines; I’m always happy to find one who was raised in India, who is over six feet tall, or who loves physics (in 19th-century England), for example. I enjoy reading romance novels for various reasons, but one of those is simply the fantasy of being someone else—someone who will get a HEA at the end, no matter what. Or, perhaps, someone who lives in a different time and a different place.

My reading comprehension is just fine, thank you very much, at any hour of day or night. I never objected to your point (other people had continued discussing it without me), but your wording.

Sorry for the thread derailment, SB Sarah and Candy.

I don’t know if it qualifies as a romance, but it’s very romance-y, and I’m sure many of you have already read Circle of Friends by Maeve Binchy.  Bennie is a great heroine, bigger than all her friends.  I really enjoyed it.

Given that in the world we live in, anything over a size 0 is now considered fatty McFatFat moocow, I don’t care about this arguing over whether or not size 8 or 10 or 22 is considered fat. Hell, anyone who isn’t obviously anorexic-ish in a romance novel and has put food into her face at any point in time works for me.

I thought of another great heroine who has size issues, though she’s not the main character:  Kevin’s mother Lilly in This Heart of Mine by Susan Elizabeth Phillips.  Lilly was a sex symbol in her youth, but now her body has thickened and spread and she no longer sees herself as sexually attractive, until an artist convinces her otherwise.

It was also refreshing to see a woman Of A Certain Age (and corresponding physique) have a hot affair.

Jude Deveraux has an overweight heroine in Wishes, who is magically made thinner (literally: her fairy godmother does it) but it doesn’t make her happier.

Thanks, Cat Marsters, I read this book long ago but couldn’t remember details.  One of the phrases that stuck with me, though, was about the fairy godmother who had “a thin woman’s horror of fat.”  I thought that captured the character’s attitude (and society’s) without any sugar-coating.

I am 5’4” and a size 20 (22 in some clothes).  Tomorrow I go to weight watchers (again!) and try to get something off of this 41 yr old body (which is really, really difficult now) because I want to see my kids grow up.  I have only been fat for 10 yrs, but I always thought I was, so I am well-acquainted with some of the icky psychological aspects of being heavy (feeling invisible, unimportant, unattractive, dismissed).  I don’t mind seeing them in a story with a fat heroine.  I think that, along with health concerns and crappy clothes, it’s normal.  Of course, you always have to shrug it off and live your life, but I expect most fat women have those moments.  While I think it’s fine to have a character lose weight (because any bit will help you be healthier), I don’t like it when she has to do so to get her HEA.  And I don’t like it when she counts some calories, goes to a gym and it “just falls off.”  It doesn’t, and weight loss is frustratingly hard work.  And if the author wants her heroine to be heavy and ignore the weight issue altogether, then that’s fine, too—and it could really be encouraging to someone.  I dated my now-husband once when I was young and thin, and again when I was in my 30’s and fat….he liked me better the second time because I was emotionally and physically confident. 

As far as less-than-perfct heroes goes, more power to them!  I’ve dated all sizes of men, and their bodies weren’t reliable indicators of how good they were as indivuduals, as partners, or as well,....In fact, after a certain age, you have to really work to keep a certain physique—which can require a level of vanity and time commitments that can hurt a relationship.

I may be thin, but I’m not an idiot about weight.  One book that seriously made me WTF—the character spent the entire book watching her weight, commenting on how she’d need to run a few extra miles to work off the fat when the hero brings her some take-out chicken for dinner, things like that . . .

And it was specified at the start that she weighed 98 pounds.

No, I didn’t leave a 1 off the start of that.  That’s NINETY-EIGHT pounds.

I’m naturally skinny.  Scrawny, really—can’t even build muscle mass when I try.  Awesome metabolisim or whatever shit you want to call it, the few times that I have hit 98 in my life, I have gone into a dead panic and made a point to switch to a more high-calorie diet.

Well…again this depends on your definition of fat, but hands up who actually thinks it’s a good idea?  Any doctor will tell you it’s unhealthy.  Unhealthy and sexy are really unmixy things.

I have a soapbox that I just want to get on for a moment, and it has a title: Health at Every Size.  Google that and you will find an excellent site by a man named Jon Robison that describes a holistic way of coming to health without dieting (which has a 95% failure rate over 5 years and leads to yo-yoing).  His basic idea is to find your way to acceptance and love of your body as it is, eating intuitively (that is listening and learning those hunger signals), and finding exercis that is pleasurable and sustainable.  This last seems the most revolutionary since most of us think of exercise as involving nothing fun.

The further part of my soapbox…it’s frustrating as hell that we equate fat with unhealth, but if you are skinny we don’t look too closely at your habits to see if you are eating those fresh foods, getting 8 hours of sleep a night, and drinking only moderately (we do look at smoking, though), and getting regular exercise…all those things are more related to mortality rate than almost anything else.  Off soapbox.

I am all for everyone reading for their fantasies and I realize that fantasies change, but there really does need to be readily available reading materials for those of us that want to read about plus-sized women.  I think about the lack of books by and for African American women in the 80s and 90s and what a market they now have.  It gives me great hope.

One last piece for those who are really struggling with your image and with moving in the world at your weight…go now to YouTube and look up Joy Nash’s Fat Rant.  It is wonderful and affirming…and Joy is a really nice person on top of it.

I’m a BBW and my debut novel, Messalina - Devourer of Men, is about a BBW who believes her size and race has intimidated men so she does her own thing to get her rocks off and lives her life. For the most part she’s OK with herself, but she does have her moments. But sometimes it takes a jolt from the outside to REALLY make an impression and say “Hey, there’s nothing wrong with you. Others may not appreciate you, but that’s their problem. Not yours.”

I’m tired of seeing the Lula’s of the world (from the Stephanie Plum series) always being used for comic relief. There’s more to it than that.

Then again, I don’t want to read about women who whinge on every page about their appearance. Give me characters of substance…and size, if you have ‘em :)

This is a great thread! Thanks, Anne, for telling me.

And if any one is interested, come check out my blog, The Full-Bodied Book Blog for similar discussion(s).

I hate coming this late into a discussion, because I feel like everything I want to say has already been said—and in some cases, said better—but I’m going to comment anyway. I whole-heartedly agree with those who have said that while yes, reading is a form of escapism, I also like being able to relate to the heroine in some way. As a woman who is much bigger than I used to be (don’t you hate it when Mom’s “Someday your metabolism is going to catch up with you” lectures turn out to be true?) that means yes, I love nothing more than to read about someone who doesn’t necessarily meet today’s standards of beauty—whether in size or looks or whatever—but is happy with herself anyway (at least most of the time) and still manages to achieve her HEA without making drastic changes. That said, I also don’t have a problem with a main character who does meet the Barbie standard. Several others have already said it, but so long as the heorine is well-written and someone I can like and care about, I could give two $@#*! about her size. As far as the imperfect hero goes, I’m with the as long as the heroine is hot for him, that works for me crowd. Because if you are seeing him through the rose-colored, I’m-madly-in-love/lust glasses of the heroine—and if the author’s any good, you should be—then you should feel the same way about him she does. Or at least be able to look beyond the fact that he may not meet your personal ideal. Okay, I’m going to shut up now. Oh! on the books with “larger” heroines thread: I have the memory of an 80-year-old woman, so I can’t remember character names, title or author—if anyone can, I’d be highly grateful, because I would LOVE to add it to my collection—but the hero is the Scottish grandson of an ailing British duke/earl/whatever dragged to England to assume the title and marry etc. He has a couple of girls in particular tossed at him, but prefers the heroine, who lives with two aunts not far from his grandfather. Dammit! Wish I could remember a title or at least the author, because this description is not doing the story justice at all—I know I liked it enough that I read it more than once, then leant it to an old friend and never saw it again ... Anyway, if anyone can figure out what the hell I’m talking about, I recommend it.

Ha! I’ve found it. I think. Johanna Lindsey’s The Heir with Duncan and Sabrina. Not positive, but I think that’s it. Happy reading :)

I just finished reading Isabel Sharpe’s Indulge Me, a recent Harlequin Blaze novel. It’s about a woman who decides to seduce the first man she sees, plus do a whole host of other sexual things she’s never done before. There was a toss off line about half way through that referenced her size being between a 10 and 12. I was stunned - and pleased. 10/12 isn’t huge, of course, but it is larger than is usually found in a romance, plus there was no other mention of her weight. He didn’t pay attention to her curves or bemoan a lack - it was just another fact about her. Neat.

Her best friend’s husband was also in the process of joining a gym to lose weight and be sexier for his wife, which was interesting. Of course, said wife freaked out at first and thought the worst, but they also demonstrated an ability to communicate not often found in romance novels, either.

Back to the original subject, which I believe was

So what other plus-size heroines have you read and liked? And which ones made you want to scream at the reinforcement of what The Rotund calls the “hegemony of Thin?”

The first book that came to mine was Lori Foster’s Too Much Temptation.  I also remember enjoying an old Harlequin, Alpenrose by Madeline Charlton. 

There have been others, but these are the two I can remember titles for ;)

To clarify:  I enjoyed both of the books.

Eve Byron “Only in my dreams” has a heroine who is large (though no specific size is specified), and has major issues with it. It takes her a whole book to get over it, with a hero who is instantly attracted to her. I loved this book, though I have to add a disclaimer: I haven’t re-read this book in at least 4 years, so it has definitely fallen off my “comfort” list. When I read it, I had major body issues myself (never been overweight, but I don’t fit a standard definition of beautiful). I could very much identify with her, and loved how the hero accepted her. A reviewer at “The Romance Reader” thought that she was whiny, and unreasonably obsessed with her body. I don’t know - she reminded me of myself very much, and I don’t like to think of myself as whiny. Now my body issues are, if not gone, at least under control - I can say I look pretty and believe it ;-) I wonder if this is why I stopped re-reading it - I don’t identify with the heroine so much anymore? I have worked out my issues enough so that I don’t need a fantasy that a hero will help me solve them? Hard to say.

So where are the heroines with confidence and style equal to that I see in those ladies?

Mostly in the African-American romances. Which is too bad. On the other hand,were I to wear those same clothes, they just wouldn’t look right. Which sucks. I do take my cues though from the Big, Gorgeous Black women I see and carry myself with the same pride and confidence. That is what the men react to, not the size. And why they are usually walking on the arms of some of the hottest guys around.

We have a couple dress stores here that sell those lovely hats. I wish I could pull them off.

IMHO, Hispanic women are much the same. Yesterday at Six Flags, there were many women who were showing far more than I would even dare to show in public, and who were larger than I am. (Ok, I will admit that I am a well proportioned size 16/18. I am balanced- finally. I have a waist again. Long time no see). And these women just didn’t give a fuck who thought what about them- and again, they were with some hot looking guys. Go figure. Hot white men sometimes, to me, seem only to see what is physically visiable- looks, figure. Men of other races and cultures seem to look beyond that far more frequently.

I’m tired of seeing the Lula’s of the world (from the Stephanie Plum series) always being used for comic relief. There’s more to it than that.

On the other hand, Lula is very confident in herself, size not withstanding. Yes, she does try to diet and immediately heads to Cluck in a Bucket. She doesn’t let her size stop her from doing what she wants (or who she wants). I love Lula, comic relief not withstanding.

>>There are also some younger romances and fantasies and so on with wonderful plus-sized heroines.  “Princess Ben” by Catherine Gilbert Murdock is a wonderful example, but it is mostly a fantasy/magic/adventure with a little romance thrown in at the end.<<

No, no, no! Princess Ben loses weight at the end and goes around lecturing the reader on healthy eating habits.

Before I started loosing weight I was really close to Lula’s “stats” and nowhere near as big as Lula was described. I could not sit on a 6’3” grown ass man and squish him into crying “uncle” like Lula could!!  200 lbs may sound HUGE to JE but it’s not as big as she described Lula AT ALL!

Thanks Tracy!  I enjoy reading about larger women, but often feel the authors should have researched their characters better.  I am 6’, weigh 230 lbs, and wear a size 12/14.  A woman who is 5’10” and weighs a 175 pounds stands a good chance of falling into the “average” range of sizes, not plus size!  But it is this range of women often described as overweight/fat/etc.

I’ve enjoyed these books: Big Girls Don’t Cry by Cathie Linz, Real Women Don’t Wear Size 2 by Kelley St. John, The Perfect Wife by Lynsay Sands (And one of her Vampire books had a curvy heroine as well. I just can’t remember.), and have heard decent things about Take Me by Bella Andre.

Already mentioned, but The Corset Diaries by Katie MacAlister, Bet Me by Jennifer Crusie, Agnes and the Hitman by Jennifer Crusie and Bob Mayer all were good, too.

I love Meg Cabot’s Heather Wells Mysteries. The titles would lead you to believe that they’re books about weight, but they aren’t The heroine Heather has curves but doesn’t seem interested in giving up the ice cream or getting up in the morning to exercise…she has bigger things on her mind like students being murdered!

The further part of my soapbox…it’s frustrating as hell that we equate fat with unhealth, but if you are skinny we don’t look too closely at your habits to see if you are eating those fresh foods, getting 8 hours of sleep a night, and drinking only moderately (we do look at smoking, though), and getting regular exercise…all those things are more related to mortality rate than almost anything else.  Off soapbox.

Spinsterwitch, you just hit the nail on the head with this comment!!  Thin does NOT = healthy!!  I have a friend that is exactly what the world says us women should look like.  She’s anorexic and she’s malnourished.  Not exactly a picture of health.  I am overweight but am actually much healthier than her.  I take meds for reflux/heartburn which as I loose weight is getting better (YAY!) but still, if you put us side by side and asked “which is healthier” most people would pick her. They’d be wrong.

Thin people can be healthy, but overweight does not automatically mean BAM! instant health problems. Yes, you are getting into the danger zone~I don’t dispute that at all, my blood pressure was creeping up and that’s what kicked my in the butt to loose the weight.  I’m just saying that thin does not = healthy.

I’m surprised nobody has mentioned Eileen Wilks’ fun novel MIDNIGHT CINDERELLA. It was a Harlequin Desire I believe, a few years back.

Heroine in this one qualifies because she’s more worried about improving her vocabulary than her “hourglass figure”. The author makes it quite clear she’s a plus-size and quite comfortable in her own skin.

As long as Mr. Right finds her appealing…now what was that Word of the Day?

it’s frustrating as hell that we equate fat with unhealth, but if you are skinny we don’t look too closely at your habits

Or even think overly much as to WHY someone might be thin.  Want to know what’s effed up?  I have a chronic illness that, amongst its glorious and myriad side effects, causes me to lose weight .  I am on the small side to begin with, but you wouldn’t believe how many compliments I get WHEN I’M SICK. 

Sometimes I just don’t ...know what to say.

I have to endorse Night Play as well. Bride and Vane’s story centers around self acceptance, and it wonderful to see them both come to terms with themselves as they are rather than as they think their families would like them to be.  Kenyon makes a point in this book and an earlier one about Bride being voluptuous and worth far more than she thinks. 

Honestly, what I find appealing in this book is the coming to terms with self rather than the fact that he finds her size 18 figure appealing.

Well…again this depends on your definition of fat, but hands up who actually thinks it’s a good idea?  Any doctor will tell you it’s unhealthy.  Unhealthy and sexy are really unmixy things.

Ugh, this argument is so tired, and so, so untrue.  You can be unhealthy skinny and you can be unhealthy fat.  Why does everyone feel the need to guide the poor, stupid fat girl to the salad bar all the @#$%ing time?

If I can’t read a book where a heroine looks like me, it’s for my own good?  Because otherwise, I’ll just be content to ignore any possible health problems I have, simply because of a piece of fiction?

Lord, Sarah, I have a post-partum ass, too. Being pregnant with my son four years ago was the first time in my entire life I gave myself free license to eat when and what I wanted, and man, did I. I gained over 60 pounds with him. I lost a lot of it, but when I was pregnant with my daughter year before last, I was a lot more careful about my eating habits. I didn’t gain as much weight with her, and have managed to lose it in the two years since. I’m at my pre-son-pregnancy weight, and want to lose 20 more pounds—not because I have the same insecurities and body dysmorphic issues I fear I had as a young woman (and which prompted me to flirt with eating disorders in the reckless folly of my vain and misguided youth), but because I want to get out of the risk categories I’m currently in for adult-onset diabetes, high blood pressure and heart disease. I have been watching what I eat and exercising, especially over the last month with the pressure for RWA National on (not to mention this sweet freakin’ dress I bought for the Kensington cocktail party and the bad as hell shoes to match…!). I’m really embarrassed by how easily I’ve dropped 10 pounds in 5 weeks—by eating good-for-me-stuff and getting off my ass and hoofing 1.33 miles on my treadmill three nights a week. I say embarrassed because it makes me realize just how lazy I can be sometimes, and just how lousy my food choices can be. (Even if things that are deep-fried and cheese-dipped are sooooooo yummy…)

So what the hell was I talking about again? I got distracted by thoughts of cheese. Oh, yeah, plus sized heroines. I would love to read about them. I would love to write about them. Because I’m one of them, damn it. And as I told my husband the other day, “It’s nice to see a woman who’s not all sticks and bones—one that looks like she’s eaten a goddamn sandwich!”

Sara
Who is overdue on the treadmill. Because I had (*gulp*) french fries and chicken nuggets for supper. The curse of momhood.

Well…again this depends on your definition of fat, but hands up who actually thinks it’s a good idea?  Any doctor will tell you it’s unhealthy.  Unhealthy and sexy are really unmixy things.

I have a soapbox that I just want to get on for a moment, and it has a title: Health at Every Size.

I am really, really going to try not to make this a thread-jack again, but I feel the need to chime in on this, too.  WandaSue- you shared your story and your opinions, and I think most people are reminding themselves not to read emotions and inflections into your comments, but are having negative reactions to them.  It seems to me like you are not willing to consider the idea of body types (meaning metabolisms) and body shapes.

You say you were size 16 at 5’1” and for health reasons you made a change.  That is good, and I am glad for anyone who is being healthy.  Unfortunately, you DO seem to be making a value statement about people who haven’t made the decision you have, for any reason.  You do seem to be equating plus-sized with overweight and overweight with fat and fat with unhealthy. 

To me, it’s a question of who’s making the decisions about the standards (not of beauty, but of medical definitions), which is why I want to thank SpinsterWitch for chiming in.

I am 5’6” and 12/14.  I am 42-32-44 and I weigh 175 pounds.  I have a sneaking suspicion that I’d be fat by the standards you seem to be throwing out.  But since you brought up health: my cholesterol is 126, my blood pressure’s 110/70, and I’ve consistently had my other levels test as normal for my annual physical (for as long as I can recall).

At a size 6, I would look ridiculous.  I do have a large bone structure (it doesn’t just occur in the tall).  And, no, I would never choose a 6 over another size, even if that meant 16.  I have been 16, and I was not happy there, but I was not any happier as a 10. 

J. Armintrout is right, it is a tired argument, and it sets people off.  I apologize for taking too much time on this segue-topic and not Plus-Sized heroines. I like to read about plus-sized heroines, because 9 times out of 10 their bodies are normal and more accurately reflect the normal woman in the real world.

I’ve noticed the “romance is my fantasy” argument come up a lot and I can’t help but put my two cents in on that.

Speaking from someone who reads in the fantasy and sci-fi genre as well as romance, the best fantasies are spiced with reality. You can have a fantasy of beautiful settings and gorgeous clothes and an exciting lifestyle, but lots of readers (like me, for example), want some flaws and reality mixed in because it makes the fantasy ACCESSIBLE.

If perfect, gorgeous hot man falls for perfect gorgeous hot woman - who the hell cares? Without flaws of some kind, there wouldn’t a story in the first place and the characters wouldn’t have appealing personalities. Most of the time in romances the flaws are internal or societal - the perfect gorgeous hot man is poor and can’t marry the rich perfect gorgeous hot woman, etc, or the perfect gorgeous hot man is too damaged from a childhood trauma of being beaten with a frozen fish to express his feelings for the perfect gorgeous hot woman.

But I really, REALLY don’t think you have to limit the flaws and obstacles to inward things - a heroine’s weight or a man’s looks can serve as excellent examples of what a couple has to overcome to get their HEA.

I mean, if on the off chance I found a guy who’d laugh at my jokes, made me chocolate cake and waffles in bed, loved books, adored me like the goddess I am and was well-versed in the sensual arts (and, er, willing to wait until marriage to make full use of them) - do you really think I’d turn him down because he had a wart on his neck or extra hair on his chest or was fat? HELL no.

I find it funny that the novel that turned me off to romance books when I was in high school and then a novel that got me back into it a few years ago…were both with plus-sized heroines.

I picked up Jennifer Weiner’s “Good in Bed” because I took a tour of the Philadelpha Inquirer for journalism class when she was working there. The book was brought up and talked about. It sounded good. And I loved it. The first half. And then Cannie lost the weight and I felt like I was kind of cheated out of the whole thing. The second she lost the weight, she got her HEA which was so annoying to me then. I was 17, 5’0” and a size 18 so the last thing I wanted is a heroine to prove my opinions about my own weight right. No romance for Melly until I’m skinny. I got really soured on the whole genre.

About two years later, a friend linked me to Jennifer Crusie’s Bet Me when the first chapter was available online just before it was published. I preordered the book the same night and it reignited my love affair with romance novels because I really felt like Min could be me in five years and I liked the fantasy that I can have a HEA without losing the weight.

I’m 24 now, still 5’0” and still a size 18 (though I veer into a 20 when I’m unemployed and depressed) but thanks to reading books like Bet Me and others by Crusie (not to mention one of my ex-boyfriends), I feel like it’s okay to be that size. I’m not unhealthy (not really…in another few years, it will probably be a problem I know) but I don’t feel like I have to lose the weight to be happy, which is the only thing that Good in Bed made me feel like. I’ve never read another Weiner book since and I won’t again.

or extra hair on his chest

And let me tell you.  Things change.  Since my husband and I met 15 years ago he has sprouted a whole lot more hairs on his chest and BACK (and out his ears. . . .) and lost that much on top of his head.  I’ve gained 50 lbs. and lost 20 of that.

Do I still think he’s sexy?  Oh yeah.  I’ve learned to love the extra hair LOL Does hubby still find me sexy~fluctuating weight and all?  He says so and his actions sure prove it.

That’s the point for me. Not if the plus size heroine is PC or if she’s healthy. It’s that some of us want romance to reflect real life. And real life means people of all shapes and sizes that can and DO fall in love and find each other irresistible. 

I know my hubby is not someone that women stop and do a double look at. He never has been.  He’s not ugly, but not Hottie McHottie either. But I find him sexy.  That, to me, is what romance is all about. The author should show me why the heroine finds the hero sexy.  Warts and all.

I don’t know if anyone’s mentioned it yet, but Meg Cabot has a great series starting with Size 12 is Not Fat about an ex-pop star who was dropped from her label when she wanted to write legitimate music, instead of the stupid crap her record company wanted her to sling. That, and she had gained weight. Her weight is mentioned throughout the series but not in an irritating way - more, she wonders frequently why thinness matters so much. I highly recommend them, though she doesn’t get The Guy until the last (third) of the series, Big Boned.

If perfect, gorgeous hot man falls for perfect gorgeous hot woman - who the hell cares? Without flaws of some kind, there wouldn’t a story in the first place and the characters wouldn’t have appealing personalities.

Amen to that.

It’s that some of us want romance to reflect real life. And real life means people of all shapes and sizes that can and DO fall in love and find each other irresistible.

And amen to that too.

It sounds like for many readers, part of the enjoyment of a romance novel is imagining oneself as the young, beautiful and perfect heroine. But for me it doesn’t work that way. I can’t identify with that heroine. And I feel like the implicit message in that sort of book is “if you’re young, beautiful and flawless, you’ll get your HEA. If not… tough luck.” I get enough of that message already. I don’t need any more of it.

That’s why I prefer a romance novel with a more flawed (i.e. normal) heroine. That changes to book’s message to, “Anyone can get their HEA if they find the right guy,” which I find a lot more appealing. I don’t demand that the hero be dead-drop gorgeous. In fact, I prefer it when he’s not. I think that guy from

The Raven Prince

with the smallpox scars is the sexiest romance novel hero I’ve ever read.

It’s hard for me to find the kind of romance novel I like. The market doesn’t seem to be targeted to people like me, so I read mostly from other genres. But I do keep an eye out for that odd romance novel that says “normal people find love too, not just the beautiful people.”

I am 6’, weigh 230 lbs, and wear a size 12/14.  A woman who is 5’10” and weighs a 175 pounds stands a good chance of falling into the “average” range of sizes, not plus size!

I’m 5’10 and weigh at this writing 178#. I wear a size 16/18.  If you’re 230 in a size 12, it must be pure muscle.  Good on you!

And I just have to comment…my Captcha for this comment is friends69.

I’d say that’s more than friends, wouldn’t you?

I’m 5’10 and weigh at this writing 178#. I wear a size 16/18.  If you’re 230 in a size 12, it must be pure muscle.  Good on you!

Well, when I was “thin” which was thin to me, I weighed 175 and wore a 12/14 and I am only 5’4”.  It really depends on how you are built.  I weigh about 240 now and wear a 20/22.  I’m trying to get back to the 12/14.  Lost 20 lbs so far.

I’ve been fascinated by these wise, funny, intelligent posts.  Wow to the bitchery!

FWIW, my theory:
1) It can be hard for someone to keep loving you if you don’t even like yourself. 
2) It’s hard to like yourself if society is saying you should hate yourself.
3) Big can be healthy, unfit and unexercised isn’t healthy at any size. 
4) Prejudice works on the basis of immediate appearance, not intimate knowledge (just one of the myriad stupidities of prejudice), so anyone who is big can be hated (and no, not putting it too strongly). 
5) For me, fighting the prejudice against being big is easier now I’ve taken up doing more exercise than the average (not too difficult, actually, the average is depressingly low), although I will admit I’d prefer to be the sort of person that could take up arms on the issue regardless.
6) It’s easier to be nice to (the unprejudiced bit of) the world now I’m happy with my physical self (and evidence tends to suggest I may be easier to love…..).

Now I’m off to read some of the recommendations by the bitchery.  Looking forward to some heroines who are big and live life to the full.

No one is model thin and a lot are quite overweight, but the style the ladies show is amazing.  Like big beautiful birds of paradise they come in on the arms of dapper men who seem very happy to be seen with them.  I stand and watch, muttering to a friend like Cinderella’s ugly stepsister—- WHERE do they get those clothes? And the hats!  Turbans in jewel tones and lovely flat saucer hats with exotic trimmings.

When I lived in the US I used to get a catalogue from Old Pueblo Traders that had a lot of affordable brightly colored suits and matching hats. I used to wish I could order some but knew I’d never have the occasion to wear them.

Ugh, this argument is so tired, and so, so untrue.  You can be unhealthy skinny and you can be unhealthy fat.  Why does everyone feel the need to guide the poor, stupid fat girl to the salad bar all the @#$%ing time?

Very true. I’m fairly thin (edging bigger once I passed the big 5-0) and for most of my life I did barely any exercise and didn’t care what I ate. I was in terrible physical shape with no muscle tone and no endurance at all but no one ever called me on it because I was thin. OTOH, when I was living in San Francisco, Jazzercise didn’t want to hire an overweight fitness instructor, who later sued for discrimination and won. For more on overweight trainers, see this New York Times article: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/01/fashion/thursdaystyles/01FITNESS.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1

I picked up Jennifer Weiner’s “Good in Bed” because I took a tour of the Philadelpha Inquirer for journalism class when she was working there. The book was brought up and talked about. It sounded good. And I loved it. The first half. And then Cannie lost the weight and I felt like I was kind of cheated out of the whole thing. The second she lost the weight, she got her HEA which was so annoying to me then.

Which is too bad, because the follow up this year, Certain Girls, shows not only does she put it back on, but her HEA from Good in Bed, doesn’t care, still, all these years later. In many ways I think I enjoyed this one better than GIB. However, it is a tear jerker.

Very true. I’m fairly thin (edging bigger once I passed the big 5-0) and for most of my life I did barely any exercise and didn’t care what I ate. I was in terrible physical shape with no muscle tone and no endurance at all but no one ever called me on it because I was thin.

I second (or fifth, maybe) this.  I was 5’4 1/2” & 111 lbs when I went into the Air Force.  I was a big ole couch potato at that tender age of 17 who would rather read or watch tv than run around outside and I paid for it in Basic training.  The med clinic probably saw me at least once a week with blisters, shin splints, the flu, more shin splints, the flu again, and more shin splints.  This was over a 6 week period!  I left Basic at 115 lbs and tech school at 118 lbs and that’s where I stayed after 2 kids.  I ate whatever I wanted, didn’t exercise a lick, & drank alcohol on a regular basis.  I was not healthy and, due to other issues, was not happy.  Do you think it occurred to anybody that that was the case?  Nope.

Go forward about 20 years and things are pretty different.  Between the metabolism slowing down and the partial hysterectomy, I’ve put on some serious weight (compared to how I used to be).  But I’ve quit smoking, I don’t drink at all, and I’ve cut most of the sugar and trans fats out of my diet.  I’m trying to eat healthy and not snack so much, though it can be hard now that I can’t light up whenever I get the urge.  I still think exercise is about the most boring thing ever, so I’m having a hard time getting motivated in that direction.  That said, though, I’m so much happier with my life, in general.  Obviously, I’m much healthier without the smoking and all that refined sugar.  Tell that to those that knew me when I was 118 lbs versus now, though.  Sheesh!  Yeah, I need to lose some weight, but isn’t it better if I’m a bit heavier and a lot happier than vice versa?

I’m trying to eat healthy and not snack so much, though it can be hard now that I can’t light up whenever I get the urge.  I still think exercise is about the most boring thing ever, so I’m having a hard time getting motivated in that direction.  That said, though, I’m so much happier with my life, in general.

I quit smoking over 24 years ago and still have the desire to lite up. Quitting was where I put on my weight, so it was a trade off. And I agree exercise is the most boring thing going. I toy with the idea of an exercycle in my little sitting room so I can watch tv or read while I am doing it. Although I do refuse to give up alcohol completely! gotta have one vice. Besides shoes and books. And chocolate.

And I agree, much better to be happy and a little heavy, than skinny and miserable.

3) Big can be healthy, unfit and unexercised isn’t healthy at any size.

I grew up on a farm. I know physical labor when I do it. I am also one of those small, but big boned women. I don’t look like my weight, but much of it is muscle. I still garden and do all the lawn work and most of the physical work needed to keep a home running. and like Spider, my blood pressure, cholesterol, sugar, etc are all with in the acceptable range (sometimes to low) and my doctor has told me flat out he can’t honestly tell me to lose weight because of health reasons, expecially when he needs to.

My body is happy where it is. So am I. And that is what gives me the confidence to be who I am. And to enjoy the curves and clevage and not only show them off but flaunt them. And flaunt the clevage I do. LOL

Catherine Anderson’s Sweet Nothings features a plus-sized heroine who is smart, sweet, and has a sense of humor. Alpha-male hero loves her curves, though he does not, at first, love her cooking (she’s a vegetarian, he’s strictly meat and potatoes). There’s a nice shopping-fantasy scene in which heroine is transformed from drab to fab, but she’s never pressured to lose weight, simply to dress in brighter, more complexion-flattering colors to correspond to her increasing self-esteem.

I remember reading a story years ago where the heroine, who was fat, went on a fat cruise and came back after 6wks to 2 months or so (maybe longer??) and was all svelte and sexy and then she went back to the hero who didn’t love her cause she was fat. ick. I think it was one of the first books I every really wanted to throw at a wall. Thankfully I don’t remember the title.

I know they aren’t categorized as romances but Joann Fluke’s Hannah Swensen Mysteries show a good well adjusted heroine who focuses on food only because the books include recipes and she owns a bakery. Despite having a mother who is always trying to get her to loose weight and two thin sisters she doesn’t sit around all the time griping about her size. There was actually only one book in the series that showed her dieting and that was due to a mix-up from shopping with her skinny sister. And before you say she doesn’t have any romantic interests, she juggles two guys and solving murders.

Cathie Linz’s Big Girls Don’t Cry featured a heroine who is a plus-sized model (and who’s actually plus-sized, to boot). Granted, the story kind of irked me because I felt like she banged the reader upside the head with the “love your body” message, but it was refreshing to see a plus-sized heroine in a romance novel.

Of course, there’s always Jen Weiner’s books (I can’t ever say enough about Good In Bed and Certain Girls).

And, uh, my alter ego Renae has a novella up over at Loose Id featuring a plus-sized heroine who is quite well-adjusted. In fact, it’s in an anthology featuring TWO plus-sized heroines. In fact, Loose Id is very plus-friendly, which was one of the many reasons I was attracted to them as a publisher.

Inappropriate Men by Stacey Ballis features a plus-sized heroine who has little, if any, problem with her self-image.  I don’t remember her exact size, but she definitely wasn’t a “OMG I’m fat because I’m a size 12” girl.  She was a big, beautiful, and most of all, confident woman.

I skimmed the last 50 or so posts but Sarah Strohmeyers’s Cinderella Pact is another fave of mine—though it’s more women’s fiction than romance. AND the heroines are all older (relatively speaking). By the end of the book I definitely think that at least the lead character learns that thin doesn’t equal happy. I love this book (like a fat kid loves cake)—and I’ve battled my weight all my life.

I’ve also written fat heroines. One had issues—big issues and I couldn’t sell the book(BTW the hero is in his 30’s and balding but sexay as HELL!). In another book the heroine didn’t have issues and was e-published—it’s a book people tend to love or dislike but I gave the hero the big issues and made my tall, voluptuous heroine the one with the confidence. Her weight is NOT an issue and she’s probably one of my fave all-time characters.

I want to be Betti when I grow up :)

Romance novels with plus-size heroines, and where to find them.

My name is Pat Ballard.  I have 6 romance novels in print with what I call Big Beautiful Heroines. I also have a compilation of short stories with BBHeroines, and my first nonfiction, 10 Steps To Loving Your Body (No Matter What Size You Are) was published in June.

My heroines are either happy with themselves when they enter the story or they’re happy with themselves before the story ends. I will
NEVER put one of my heroines on a diet.

I don’t put a specific size on my heroines because I want each person to read the story and be able to picture themselves as the heroine. But it is well known in each book that the heroine is a large woman.

Also, I have varied sized heroes, anywhere from “Probably over 300 pounds” to “average-to small.” Again, I try not to deal in specific sizes for the heroes.

One publisher I tried to deal with insisted that I put a specific size on my heroines, but I refused. My argument to her was that the mainstream novels don’t put a specific size on their heroines, so why should I have to. Some kind of reference might be made to size in the mainstream romances, like “his hands could span her small waist,” but not, “she was a perfect size “0.”

In spite of popular belief to the contrary, I’m a healthy fat woman. My blood pressure is normal, my cholesterol and triglycerides are great, and everything else about me is working just fine.

I’m an active promoter and believer of Health At Every Size that was mentioned on this list.  We all are genetically programmed with a body type. We should all try to maintain a healthy lifestyle no matter what size we are, then we should allow ourselves and our fellow humans to be happy with who we/they are.

I starved myself from the time I was 11 years old until I was 33 years old trying to fit into the mold that I was told I should be in.
I don’t fit that mold. My gene pool refuses to allow me to be in that mold without keeping myself hungry and miserable, which I refuse to do.

We are all a wonderful one-of-a-kind work of art. Each one of our bodies is different. We should celebrate the difference instead of trying to all look like the clone of a runway model who has to keep herself starved to look the way she does.

Anyone interested can read the first chapters of my books free at my website, http://www.patballard.com
You can also read and get a copy of my 10 Steps To Loving Your Body (No Matter What Size You Are). Just the steps are free, not the book. I wrote these steps for myself when I stopped dieting, to help me remember my focus.

Pat Ballard
http://www.patballard.com

First off, I second (or third, or fourth, or whatever) Laura Kinsale’s “Seize the Fire” as a perfect example of what a so-called “plus size romance” should be, i.e., well written.

Being plus-sized myself I’d love to read more plus size romances, and not *just because* I’d like to see myself reflected in popular culture although that’s definitely a big plus. Being fat means being invisible in our culture… or, when we’re represented at all it’s as some sort of joke, “Ha ha, look at that fattie make a complete ass of herself, thinking she deserves love and good sex” (pun intended.) And it’s not even that there aren’t men who are turned on by larger women… although thanks to the never-ending hating on of us the ones who do escape brainwashing still often end up feeling embarassed to be seen liking us.

I agree with the people who posted saying they’d like to see more variety in people, both heroines and heroes, because that’s what makes for good, interesting writing, something that doesn’t degenerate into exactly what non-romance readers accuse the genre of being: a bunch of shallow, formulaic, unoriginal, escapist tripe. But from a human and social standpoint, it’s important to have popular culture that reflects all of us. I agree with Esri Rose - a large part of improving our self image is seeing people who look like us who are attractive and loveable… and also fighting back when people tell us that we aren’t. I think the reason fat blogs, size acceptance, and the increasing popularity of plus sized characters is because more people are doing just that. And that’s good for everyone, whatever your size.

Also, what is romance supposed to be about if not love (and sex). Sexiness is definitely in the eye of the beholder… and personally, I think sexy is as sexy does. A character’s personality is what makes them sexy, although it’s a hell of a lot harder to show that than just say “S/He’s good looking and has a great bod.” At the same time, I think I would have a hard time with a hero that was short, balding and tubby… Hmmm… Well, I dare someone to write a story with a male lead like that and make me fall in love with him - I’d love to read it!

Ditto JaniceG’s recommendation of Earthy Delights, which is indeed available in the US. The sequel just came out here! I liked both that the heroine doesn’t have issues with her weight (I think she was size 22, and she thinks of herself as fat, but doesn’t seem bothered by it) and that her lover actually liked that she was fat, rather than just “seeing her inner beauty” or something. He’d been at war and seen lots of starving people, and to him, fat was about life and plenty and happiness.

Also word-up to those who mentioned Miles Vorkosigan as a hot, but no good-looking, hero. The guy’s a hyper-active midget with lots of physical deformities, scars, and emotional issues. It is all about personality! Also with the imperfect men: “Soon I Will Be Invincible.” Not at all romantic, but one of the superheroes admits she had an affair with the never-hot, now-over-the-hill, slightly potbellied villain; when one of the other women is asking if he was more attractive years earlier, she says, “It wasn’t like that… he made me laugh.” For fantasizing purposes, smoldering heroes with wash-board abs are great, but in real life? I’ll take the guy who makes me laugh any day.

AMEN

I hated that jerkwad book Jemima J.  I think it left a dent in my wall given how hard I threw it.

It is nice to see more than a few of us wanting more variety in our heroines.  I get tired of the same old thing.

*sighs* NaNoWriMo is right around the corner.  After reading this and other posts about plus-size heroines, I think it’s time for me to tackle a romance as this year’s project.  It’ll never see light of day because I truly am a horrible writer, but at least I’ll have fun writing it.

So many have already mentioned Cabot and Crusie that I’ll plug Elizabeth Neff Walker’s An Abundant Woman . Much of the angst came from the hero dealing with his and other peoples reactions to his desiring and possibly being happy with a fat woman.  I appreciated that many of the heroines concerns revolved around whether she wanted to invest time and effort in a man she felt she could love when he didn’t seem to trust his attraction to her.

In the same vein, Monica Jackson’s The Look of Love features nurse exploring a relationship with doctor despite meddling and disapproval from his family.

Oh yeah, I also loved Elizabeth Young’s Asking for Trouble. Heroine Sophie is so funny and cool that I got the audiobook and listen to it all the time.

Some ebook faves are JC Wilder’s Tactical Maneuver and Tactical Pleasure. I also enjoyed the 72 pages of Amie Stuart’s Big Girl’s Guide to Buying Lingerie, but got too busy to finish.

I am so freakin’ excited to see this conversation here! Thanks, spinsterwitch, for bringing it up!

My personal romance preferences tend toward contemporary stuff with hot writing. Give me a flawed hero/heroine any day of the week and I will put down whatever I am doing to read that story. Seriously, nothing is more boring than a person who has everything, does everything right, and never has to deal with more than a broken nail. I read for fantasy purposes but a fantasy that has a touch of reality? Something that could actually happen? That’s what I’m after.

And, you know, all the anti-fat arguments are both old and weak. Health is not a moral issue and health as we tend to define it in our current society is not something most people can attain anyway. Got allergies? No health for you! Got a chronic illness? Still no health for you! Differently abled? You don’t get to be healthy! Got a mental issue that you are/are not dealing with successfully? You guessed it.

That’s bullshit, y’all.

As for the whole idea that the fat woman with the hot guy is never realistic…. I hella wish someone had told me that before I dated all of those seriously killer hotties. I’d have known to turn them down and date men more on my own level. *eyeroll*

There’s a Harlequin Blaze that I read a few years ago and I have been trying to remember the title ever since. It featured a heroine who may very well have been genuinely plus-sized. She was a totally vibrant personality and she painted people with edible body paints, unless I am misremembering. She hooked up with a corporate type who really needed to let lose, and lived in a walk-up co-op type situation with a bunch of other personalities. Anyone else remember this book?

I don’t knwo if anybody else mentioned this book, but A Whole Lotta Lovin’ was a good anthology of plus-sized women who were positive about it. I read it a couple years ago when I was trying to read at least a couple books outside my comfort zone. It’s a great book, I really enjoyed it, except that I had the reverse of the body image problem: I am teeny. Itsy-bitsy, in every way. I love Jennifer Crusie but I have trouble reading her books sometimes because her faviorite adjective for the heroine’s body is “lush,” and the word lush only ever applies to me if I’ve been drinking. Now, where are the romance novels for flat-chested bony people, I’d like to know. :)

.) And it’s not even that there aren’t men who are turned on by larger women… although thanks to the never-ending hating on of us the ones who do escape brainwashing still often end up feeling embarassed to be seen liking us

This really is an issue, and it’s HUGE with the male height issue. In every study scientists have done, the taller the guy, the more attractive women find him (I don’t know if they included someone Shaq’s height in those studies, tho.) However, I’m one of those oddities who is attracted to short men. I find them rather like dynamite—the tighter it’s packed, the more kapow it has—but it took me 10 years of being married to my short husband (who is exactly my height, but looks shorter due to the shoes/hair issue) to admit that I find him hot Because of his 5’8” height, and not In Spite of it. In my high school days, I spent a lot of time denying that I “liked” the short guys I had the hots for. By college, I was willing to go out with the shorter men, but didn’t think they’d ask me out. When my guy did, that was pretty much all it took. Even now, after many, many years of marriage, when I see an attractive short man, it takes me a while to unswallow my tongue. But people look at me weird when I admit this, because there is a HUGE cultural (or is it hard-wired?) bias in favor of tall men.

And if I could get down to a size 16, I’d be thrilled. At that size, I would be “thin.” But that’s 2 sizes away. Less birthday cake would help, I’m sure.

I wish I could remember other books with BBW heroines, but it’s true that they’re hard to find. Gerry Bartlett has a series that begins with REAL VAMPIRES HAVE CURVES that has a plus-sized vampire heroine…

I didn’t care about the appearance of the characters when I was 80 lb overweight according to health standards and I don’t care now that I’m 20 lb to go. Most of the times I don’t remember the descriptions the authors give and end up imagining them as I see fit to the story. I’ve never felt like projecting myself on the characters of a book and feel uncomfortable trying to imagine myself in their situations. I like reading because allows me to see other peoples lives, fictional or not, not because I want to live through them. One of the few stories that I remember made an impact on me was a Nora Roberts book (MacGregor Grooms) in which the heroine used to be overweight and even now she’s lost weight but still struggles with using food as an outlet for all the things that are wrong in her life. Now, that something I can relate to. Still, I don’t consider myself as a Naomi Brightstone wannabe, though the candy bag trick is very useful.

I don’t understand why people needs to make excuses and/or statements regarding their looks. Sometimes it feels like they need to be commended for whatever decisions they make, lose weight and be congratulated on their strength of will or keep their weight and be told that they’re doing right by not conforming to society’s standards or whatever. At the end of the day I think it comes to the point in which you choose to do whatever works better for you, and for me it was to ditch the habits that led me to obesity.

BTW, losing weight doesn’t save you from going to the shrink. Sir Mix-A-Lot might, though.

5’-8” is short for a man? :flabberghasted: My ex is 5’-6” and didn’t consider himself short. But then, it may have been easier for him to ignore with me, since I am 5’-1”.

What about the Meg Cabot series that started with Size 12 is Not Fat?

And it has been my experience that weight has little to do with getting dates. I have a good friend who is about 5’-6” and something like a size 28, and frankly, out of my whole group of friends, she is the one who gets the dates with the hotties. (And then she dumps them for not meeting her exacting standards.) However, she does complain that getting the man isn’t difficult, keeping him is. Apparently, there are a lot of guys out there who are reluctant to admit publicly (by such things as calling it an official relationship, etc.) that they like girls of all size, or even considerable size.

Mirain wrote:

Ditto JaniceG’s recommendation of Earthy Delights, which is indeed available in the US. The sequel just came out here!

You’ll be please to know that there are now three books in this Kerry Greenwood series: Earthly Delights, Heavenly Pleasures, and Trick or Treat.

5’-8” is short for a man? :flabberghasted:

My hubby is 5’8” and gets called short a lot. Luckily, he could care less.  He’s short AND bald and doesn’t give it one seconds thought.  How sexy is that?! *wink*

Here’s a good story about that:  My brother-in-law got married a couple of years ago. The other men in the wedding party ranged from 5’11” to 6’4”.  We were taking pictures and the men were on the top step and the women two steps below.  As the photographer was lining up her shot in the camera she points to hubby and says “I need you on the top step”  He replies, “I AM on the top step” bwahahahahahahahaha She was soooooo embarrassed and my hubby thought it was hilarious. He teased her for the rest of the pictures.

His attitude is so awesome, and I find that sexy.

If no one considers Queen Latifah unattractive, she is the inspiration for my psychic heroine in Dream of Shadows.  (I should probably let her know.)  Here’s what the hero thought when he first saw her:

Elegant and gorgeous, but not the pencil-thin, it’s-a-sin-to-have-dessert type of woman. No, she curved the way a woman should curve, all delicious roundness under her scooped-neck burgundy sweater and tailored charcoal trousers. She was beautiful.

And way out of his league.

She eats like a normal woman with a rambunctious daughter, and the only time weight comes back up is the first time their intimate.  Jax helps Nicole kick those fears to the curb real quick.

Those fla-damn clothes you see black women wearing in church?  They’re usually in non-chain stores in largely urban areas.  Ebony used to have a Fashion Fair catalog (they just do road shows now) and the Roaman’s catalog tries to represent.

Ebony used to have a Fashion Fair catalog (they just do road shows now) and the Roaman’s catalog tries to represent.

Our local Catherine’s carries them and the hats. I love to go in and just try them on. Now, I may not be able to wear any of them, but I do dress in my own flamboyant way when the time is right. Which always shocks the ever living hell out of everyone.

5’-8” is short for a man?

FWIW I remember reading *somewhere* a few years back that 5’8 or 5’9 is actually considered AVERAGE! *g*

I LOVE men. I prefer tall men but I won’t rule out a short man…or a short hero *g*

And Seressia I LUV Queen Latifah! I think she’s so sexy! Thanks to everyone on all the great book recs.

If no one considers Queen Latifah unattractive,

She is freaking gorgeous and I would love to look like her.

5’-8” is short for a man? :flabberghasted

The men in my life have run the gammet- from 5’5” to 6’6”. They all work the same way though!!

I hated Jemina J as well-it made me so mad!!

When I write my books I rarely give specific details about how curvaceous/skinny the hero/heroine are because I prefer my readers to make up their own minds. Size (ooh er, madam) is only worth mentioning if it is relevant to the story I’m telling-sometimes it is and sometimes it isn’t.

My dad is 5’6. Not that I like to speculate on his dating life, but as far as I can tell from some stories, he didn’t have trouble getting dates. (Except in high school, but the fact that he was the VP of the Ham Radio Club may have been the real reason for that.)

I generally say that I prefer taller men because if I didn’t, my children would be under five feet tall. (My grandma is 5’8; my mother is 5’5, I’m 5’3 . . .) Of course, had my fiance been under six feet, I’m sure I wouldn’t have said ‘no.’

And Queen Latifah is a very beautiful and talented woman. Seressia, I’m totally putting your book on my TBR list!

Was it Marcus in Lisa Kleypas’s seventy-trillion books that include him who was of ‘medium’ height (but, of course, built like a wrestler)? Medium height in 1840 would have been, what, five-six or so? (Found here, one of the PDF references. Assuming Marcus was born between 1800-1830, the average ht was 170 cm.) That would make him officially ‘short’ by 21st century standards (where my 6’1 fiance doesn’t think he’s ‘tall’). Although, of course, his height is never given in numbers, so we’re left to think whatever the heck ‘medium’ height is, which is probably 5’10 for today’s reader.

Here are the steps I wrote for myself after I stopped dieting. I needed a daily reminder of my goals.

Feel free to copy these steps and paste, tape, nail or glue them anywere you can see them, if you like them.

  10 Steps to Loving Your Body (c)
                    by
                Pat Ballard

1. Never stand in front of a mirror and think negative thoughts about yourself.

2. Never stand anywhere and think negative thoughts about yourself.

3. Search carefully for your good points and when you have found them, nourish them and build on them and cause them to grow daily.

4. Close your mind to any negative words, thoughts or actions that someone might send your way. Don’t allow negative thoughts into your subconscious.

5. Always conduct yourself in an honorable fashion and don’t allow your mouth to appear larger than your body.

6. Always do your best to look like you care about yourself, as no one respects a slob, no matter what size that slob might be.

7. Learn what your best colors are, what your best hair style is, and what your best clothes style is, and never leave your house without being dressed accordingly.

8. Always, and without fail, smile and simply say, “Thank you,” when you receive a compliment. Never think or say that the compliment isn’t true.

9. Stop apologizing about your size. Expect everyone to accept you, respect you, and be happy with you just the way you are.

10. But most of all, you have to love yourself. When you love yourself, others will love you and respond to you in the exact manner as you feel about yourself.

Pat Ballard
www.patballard.com

I’m a woman who has struggled with body image all my life. I thought I was fat when I weighed 112 pounds in college, and putting on pounds was depressing, as much as I protested that it wasn’t. Last year, having gotten up to 218 at 5’6”, I decided to do something about it. I’m now 185 and wearing a size 14. Better yet, I’m fitter than I have been since I used to ride horses in college. I work out doing cardio 5 days a week, and do weights twice a week. That’s in addition to a (when I can get to it) Pilates class and training dogs.

I admit to now being an evangelistic fitness nut. For those of you who think exercise is boring, I promise you that if you *make* yourself do it for one month, you’ll be hooked. Join a gym, get out with your dog, ride a bike. You’ll be astonished by energy and esteem boost.

And we all have time to do it. Don’t fool yourselves. I work full time, do freelance graphic design, train dogs, teach dog training classes, and show dogs on weekends. If I can do it, anybody can. Even busy Moms. (grin)

I think it’s non-PC to admit, if you’re bigger, that you aren’t happy with your weight. In this day and age, we’re supposed to be defiantly happy no matter what our size. But truth to tell in American culture women are inculcated to be unhappy with their size, and I don’t think it’s weak of me to admit that yes, I am influenced by that culture. I do feel better when I weigh less and feel I look better when I weigh less. I’m sure that makes me a pariah to some. But for me personally, weighing less does boost my self-image and self-esteem. That said, I do not think waif-like thinness is very attractive either, and I feel that true happiness along with physical fitness is far more important than any number.

Anyone wanting to know how whacked out the BMI is, by the way, should go to the Illustrated BMI site. It shows how deceptive the BMI can be in judging whether a person is really overweight: http://www.flickr.com/photos/77367764@N00/sets/72157602199008819/

As for heavier heroines in books, I have no problem with them as long as weight is not the central feature of the story. And I don’t mind less than perfect heroes either. I look at some of these romances, particularly historicals, where the hero has rock-hard perfect abs and knowing what I now do about what it takes to get those kinds of abs (body fat of about 10% plus a very rigorous workout program) I’m sort of skeptical…

Pat- thank you for your list. I like it.

And I forgot to mention the one plus size woman who I envy most of all- Trisha Yearwood. Come on, she’s a hot blonde, can sing like nobody’s business and is married to Garth Brooks- who is also put on a little weight, gone gray and lost a lot of his hair. But who can also sing like heck and is one hell of a dad. But still knows how to fill out them tight, tight jeans.

http://www.fabulousmag.co.uk/diets/diet_body_survey_results_issue_025.php

I think the above link is appropriate to this discussion. I’d also like to point out, that when I said earlier I didn’t want to read about “fat chicks,” those girls pictured in that article—if those sizes are accurate—is NOT what I consider fat.

Also, I’m 5’9 and a size 4. I still have curves. I’d like to stop reading that my size is “not normal” or “unhealthy.”

Also, I’m 5’9 and a size 4. I still have curves. I’d like to stop reading that my size is “not normal” or “unhealthy.”

That’s why I kept size out of my discussion regarding health.  A size 4 can absolutely be healthy for one person but not for another.  Some people’s bodies are not made to be a size 4 and forcing it to be a size 4 means unhealthy eating (or not eating) habits.  If you are a size 4 and healthy then that’s great.

I was just commenting that when a person is thin, no one questions their health.  I have a friend that is extremely thin (I have no idea what size she wears). She is what the world considers “ideal” but she is malnourished because she doesn’t eat.  But very few people (except her friends) question if she is healthy or not because she is not overweight.

I don’t think a certain size means healthy or unhealthy. It’s about eating habits and what your body’s “natural” or healthy size is.

Thanks, ev.

Jana and Tracy, I totally agree with you both.

A good case in point is one of my cousins that I grew up with. Her mom and my dad were siblings.

She was 5’9” and weighed 98 pounds as a young woman. She was totally healthy, but wanted to gain weight.

I, on the other hand, was born with the fat gene that was prominent on my mom’s side of the family, and I was totally healthy.

When my cousin would come to visit, she would eat a big bowl of ice cream before she went to bed, trying to gain weight, and I went to bed so hungry that my growling stomach kept me awake.

I look back at the two of us and feel sad. If we could have just accepted our bodies as they were, we would have saved ourselves so much mental and physical turmoil.

Pat

I’ve just given up because the weight requirements are preposterous. I skim and ignore and suspend disbelief, same as I would with books telling me the earth is flat and people can pull firebolts out of their asses. I read a book a while back where a “big” “plush” “endowed” “well-padded” “Viking” of a woman was described as being 5’10’ and ONE HUNDRED THIRTY POUNDS.

(Not saying the ratio is impossible. Saying the extra adjectives are STUPID.)

I am five ten and my lowest adult weight was 140, and it made me sick, and made my doctor yell at me. Got that way by pulling amusing little (dumb) tricks like not eating for three days in a row. (Nor am I “big-boned”—medium at best.)

Right now, I’m 35-28-40—and a hippo, apparently, at 155 pounds and a BMI of 22.2 (and a size eight dress, size 4-6 top).  What the frak ever.

*eats carrot cake*
*with cream cheese frosting*

Recently read an interracial romance by Daamon Speller, which was not all that fab, but at least seemed to have a logical grasp of the correlation between poundage and dress size. (And size was not the heroine’s problem.)

No, Tania, the heroine of Teresa Medeiros The Bride And The Beast does not lose any weight at the end.  I just thought of another title:  The Reluctant Cinderella by Christine Rimmer.  The heroine is ‘large’ (actual weight not mentioned)  and the hero’s skinny ex-wife can’t believe it when he starts dating her:  “But - she’s FAT!”  One thing a lot of romances have is a fat VILLAINESS.  Jude Devereux’s Counterfeit Lady for instance.  Every time she appears, there is reference to how she is eating her way through the planet, as though being overweight is, in itself, proof of evil.  I found the book an insult to fat women everywhere.  In fact, I consider it the second-worst ‘romance’ ever written. (The absolute worst is Witless My Love)  Spamword Does89, as in “Does 89 pounds constitute a healthy weight?”

Considering that I’ve never met a plus sized, “average,” or fat woman who isn’t obsessed or concerned or worried about her weight and society’s perceptions about her, I don’t know how realistic this heroine would be.

See above about black churches. ;-)

Oooh!  Ladies Number One Detective Agency, Mma Precious Ramotswe!!  She is Botswanan and “traditionally shaped.”

I don’t know if it qualifies as a romance, but it’s very romance-y, and I’m sure many of you have already read Circle of Friends by Maeve Binchy.  Bennie is a great heroine, bigger than all her friends.  I really enjoyed it.

Oh, I loved that one!  It was bittersweet though.

As I recall, quite a few of the heroines of Katie MacAllister’s contemporary romances are or feel “overweight” but are pretty much okay with it. The two that come to mind immediately are “The Corset Diaries” and “Hard Day’s Knight”. I think “Men in Kilts” has a heroine who is nor stick-thin, either.

I am so underwhelmed with the BMI and weight charts, and wonder how many people have been traumatized by them over the years. These days, there’s no quibbling or question;  I’m just flat out fat… although I had to howl at a medical report I received a few years ago after an accident.  The doctor my insurance company hired to settle the claim described me as being “moderately over-nourished.” LOLOL   Anyway, I always thought I was fat throughout my youth and college years (OMG - my kingdom to be as fat now as I thought I was in college), based on numbers alone, and was very self-conscious as a result.  I’m 5’6” and incredibly big-boned.  I have a size 10 ring finger, even when I’m not overweight.  I was only maybe a size or so larger than my peers, but I always weighed at least 50 pounds more than they did from grade school on up. I came from a fat family. Therefore, I must be fat.  It never dawned on me to question the numbers.

After college, I really did start to gain weight. The day I realized I weighed more than John Elway, I was crushed. (Oh, to weigh as much as John Elway now.)  Time moved on. I got fatter.  I was okay with it. Then I won a contest called The Party of a Lifetime with Patrick Swayze.  The promoters were sending me and a friend to Beverly Hills for a weekend `to go to all these private tours and parties at Universal Studios. The first words out of my mouth (after the squeeee) were, “I’ve got to go on a diet.”  I wanted to look good in the photos.  My BBW mom, then a card-carrying member of NAAFA, wasn’t pleased. She thought I was ‘letting down the cause,’ so to speak.  I’d never given much thought to how weight affected how I was treated.  Until I lost 60 pounds. Then I understood what she meant.  I looked damn good, if I do say so myself.  Everyone else said it too.  So much so that neighbors and people I’d worked with for years, but who couldn’t even be bothered to say hello to me in the hall, suddenly considered me worthy of their attention. I was the same person inside, so why did the outside matter so much? It pissed me off, frankly. 

Ironically since then, I’ve gained it all back and then some, and my mom lost all of her weight. She’s the fanatic now. But I digress. 

Back to the numbers.  I went through one of those diet centers where you eat their food and weigh in daily with a counselor. I figured I’d behave better if I paid for it and had the accountability.  It worked great for a while. Then I started getting OCD about that damn scale, and resentful.  I knew my weight would never satisfy the counselor because I would never fit her BMI chart.  I’d take off every piece of jewelry, empty my pockets, etc. No makeup. Not put on my undergarments until after the weigh-in.  Wear only my lightest clothing, even in winter. Cut my hair. Take off the nail polish.  I was insane. 

My counselor, a little 4’5” majorette who prolly didn’t weigh 85 pounds soaking wet (not that I’m BITTER at all), kept insisting I had to lose more weight.

As I said, I really looked incredible.  I wore a size 12 pant, and a 15/16 top to fit my bust and shoulders. It’s theoretically possible that I could have lost another 10 or 15 pounds, tho it probably would not have been healthy.  We reached an impasse. She insisted I needed to lose another 60 pounds.  I asked her, “Which leg should I cut off?”  She didn’t have an answer for that, and I quit the program.

My body fat was around 20%. I weighed 185 pounds.

I can relate to the BBW issue from all sides.  I’ve been (am!) fat, insecure and invisible.  I’ve been comfortable in my own skin, regardless of weight.  I’ve been in that militant ‘I’m okay, you’re the problem’ place, and I’ve also been in that sanctimonious place where ‘since I’ve lost the weight, everyone else should as well, and pity to those who haven’t figured it out yet.’  I can understand all of those POVs and can accept a character who holds them. As long as the author doesn’t throw in unrealistic numbers (fat = size 10), I’m okay.

For myself, I just want a good story that rings true.  If the character is believable, with believable traits, confidence and/or insecurities that seem honest to the character, I’ll read it.  However, I want the story to be about the relationship and the romance – not the weight. I don’t want the author shoving her own agenda of what is/is not acceptable down my throat. I read romances to be entertained, not enlightened (no pun intended).  I guess that’s why I appreciated how the weight issues brought up in HE LOVES LUCY. She had her insecurities, but they rang true to me for that character.  It also looked at weight from the other side, pointing out that too-skinny was equally unhealthy.

One of my all time favorite reads evah is sortof applicable. (Yeah, okay, it’s not, but it’s an outstanding book and y’all should read it anyway.) It’s not about weight but is about perceptions and appearance.  An old category by Jennifer Greene called NIGHT OF THE HUNTER.  She’s plain. He’s gorgeous. She’s confident in all things but her looks. He doesn’t think he can afford love because of the dangerous job he holds.  Woven throughout a very tight, well-written story are two characters who both need to get past the expectations they assume others have of them and get to the heart of the matter:  two very lonely people who have found their soul mates, if they’ll only get past their pride and find the courage to reach out.

Diane

I have to disagree with Rose, who said that Penelope from Romancing Mr. Bridgerton was “on the plump side”.  She had been overweight before the events of that novel - I remember it being stated that she had been 14 stone - basically about 140 lbs.  While I don’t believe her height had ever been explicitly stated, that’s not too terribly terrible, and I say this as someone about the same weight at about 5’2”.

Of course, that was in the past, and in previous novels.  Penelope had lost twenty-eight pounds, making her 112lbs when Romancing Mr. Bridgerton took place.  As soon as I made those calculations, any sympathy I had for her dissipated.

Oooh!  Ladies Number One Detective Agency, Mma Precious Ramotswe!!  She is Botswanan and “traditionally shaped.”

The early books are charming. Unfortunately, in the later books, especially Blue Shoes and Happiness, the author has taken to making stupid fat jokes.

Cam, your sums are horribly off. There are 14 pounds in a stone, making Penelope 196lb. To put that into perspective, Anne Widdecombe is the same height as Penelope and is notably roly-poly at a documented weight of 11 stone and two pounds (figure obtained by watching celebrity fat club, despite my loathing of those sorts of programmes).

So from a general point of view, Penelope may not be some people’s idea of ‘properly fat’, but she certainly isn’t what most people would think of as a slender/skinny heroine. Even after she’d lost weight at twelve stone she would have to be about 5’11’‘/6’0 to be considered a ‘healthy’ or normal (read as ‘thin’) woman by British medical standards I’ve been exposed to (as someone who proofreads for a nurse I am privy to a fair amount of that nonsense.)

Coming late to this party on account of being away from the interwebs of late, but fatness: it has been much on my mind.  I currently possess clothing ranging in sizes from 16 to 26, and they all fit me.  I don’t understand sizes at all.

After this whole long conversation, I feel shallow.  I’m not attracted to fatness in either males or females. I’m fat, my family tends to be fat, most of my beloved friends are fat.  But I don’t find fat people attractive, I don’t really believe anybody who says they do.

My family runs to tall (my shortest adult male relative is 5’10” and I think I’m the shortest woman at 5’6”), and we don’t have much male pattern baldness, either.  I find short men freakish and unnatural, and bald men kind of weird and icky.  It just seems wrong to me.  (Can’t imagine why I’m single…) If some writer (Laura Kinsale, yes indeed I do loves Seize the Fire) pulls off a good story about such people, I’m there, but I don’t go looking for them.  I especially don’t go looking for a story that revolves around these characteristics.

But this:

Thin people can be healthy, but overweight does not automatically mean BAM! instant health problems.

I read an interesting book called “The Obesity Myth” by Paul Campos.  According to him, all those studies telling us that fatness is unhealthy actually show the opposite.  The data consistently showed that having a higher BMI increases life expectency, and a lower BMI increases mortality.  In study after study, the data said fatness wasn’t particularly unhealthy in and of itself, and the conclusions said fatness kills.  It’s like even the people who research obesity are brainwashed that fat=bad, and they can’t bring themselves to even see evidence to the contrary.

(Unless we get into 1000 lb people, which is a whole nother discussion.)

To the extent of recommending the FDA approve weight-loss drugs with significant risks of heart damage and death, because that risk was considered acceptable compared to the imaginary risks of being fat.

The real bad is inactivity, according to Campos’ interpretation of the various studies.

Sorry for the vagueness, I read it a while ago.  It boggled my mind.

What further boggled my mind:  Our local firefighters come by my workplace once per year to test everybody’s blood pressure and such (it’s some health promotion program).  I’m significantly overweight, and not terribly active.  Yet, my blood pressure and cholesterol are in the normal-low range, and my firefighter’s computer told him I’m biologically younger than my chronological age.  So there!

GS: I also liked Kenyon’s Night Play.  It’s the most enjoyable of all of her Dark Hunter books.  I liked the way the relationship played out, and the way the story was about them loving each other the way they were, rather than the endless slog against Teh Eebil.  I don’t think Acheron even had to save anbody, in spite of his cameo.

There are not enough heroines with 34A breasts either! 

Three kids and breastfeeding made mine even smaller.  As the struggling-to-be-proud owner of a pair of curve-less boobies, I’d like to see more heroes drooling over mini-boobs.  Come to think of it, there aren’t many scenes in romance novels in which the hero rubs his face with glee into the woman’s thin, roped-with-muscle arms or gets a boner looking at her bony ankles and wrists.  I’ve got those too thanks to genetics.  So who does admire these features?  Other women??  A few men who had skinny mamas?

I’ve read quite a few good plus-sized romances (Lori Foster has an erotic one, also almost all the Madison Hayes calendar girls are big, except for one too-skinny one).  I love reading the full-figured romance because even if the body isn’t like mine, nor is it an unlikely 36-26-34, size 4. 

I do want to point out that the hero of these books does NOT need to say skinny is ugly/gross in order to say “I love your curves.”  Ya know?  I just want the hero to find the heroine beautiful, and the heroine to see herself in that light as well.

I’ve commented elsewhere about the [duh!] differences between male and female viewpoints. A huge number of men prefer larger women, finding them physically sexier. (I know; I know: sexuality comes from both in- and outside). Though I haven’t read romances outside the oevre of my favorite, Nora Roberts, I’d love to find books in which the, shall we say, statistically larger heroine’s size is treated as neutrally as, say, red hair vs. auburn hair, and—males do wish fulfillment too [double duh!]—said heroine drives men foolish with lust. Some years ago I published three mysteries in which the detective’s main squeeze was Junoesque and then some. More then once, larger readers singled this out in complimenting me.

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