Bitchin' Blog Posts
The More Things Change, The More I Want to Rip a Bodice in Anger
by SB Sarah | by SB Sarah | June 18, 2008 | Wednesday at 5:13 pm | 106 CommentsThanks to Mel Francis and Funky Bunny for the tip: as part of a promotion of Danielle Steel’s new book, the Today show is hosting a quiz: Do you Read Romance Novels?
And of course, there’s no “yes” or “no” option - there’s “yes” or “no” with patronizing embellishments! And no room for comments for me to say, “BITE ME you sanctimonious fucknuts.” You can say, “Yes, yes, yes! Bodice-rippers are my ultimate escape” or “No way. I don’t touch those books.” Or, if you’re feeling really ambivalent about the state of your bodice, “Sometimes, while on vacation or at the beach.”
The poll results reveal that many, many respondents seem to equate “touching a romance novel” akin to “cleaning out the sink trap,” “fishing a really noxious booger out of someone else’s nose,” or “taking out the trash.”
Here. Have a More Funner Poll:
Filed: General Bitching, The Link-O-Lator
Tagged: make the burning stop
Mel-O-Drama said on 06.18.08 at 05:34 PM • [link]
I voted ‘infuriating’ but only because I’ve always wanted to ‘rip my bodice in rage’
seriously, it’s just so unnecessarily condescending. And unrealistic. and annoying.
I think the most appropriate answer to your poll would be “All of the above. Now I’m off to rip my bodice in protest.”
closetcrafter said on 06.18.08 at 05:36 PM • [link]
I try not to let Kathie Lee be my arbiter of good taste
SB Sarah said on 06.18.08 at 05:37 PM • [link]
Mel: Done. See amended poll.
Esri Rose said on 06.18.08 at 05:37 PM • [link]
Asshats.
Mel-O-Drama said on 06.18.08 at 05:39 PM • [link]
Sarah, I cannot tell you how many ways I heart you.
And now I want to rip your bodice off. ;x
FunkyBunny said on 06.18.08 at 05:48 PM • [link]
*Snork*
I Hulk Smash every chance I get. (ANGRY BODICERIP!)
Sara said on 06.18.08 at 05:49 PM • [link]
Infuriating! And a terribly written poll, as anybody who’s taken a basic research methods course would know. I don’t care if it’s not meant to be scientific; it’s embarrassingly shoddy.
I believe there is a spot for comments, if anybody has the strength to try to engage in it: click here.
Sara said on 06.18.08 at 05:51 PM • [link]
Oh, dear. I’m just a dizzy romance reader who can’t make the link work. Copy and paste everything after the colon to get to the comment page.
Sharon Buchbinder said on 06.18.08 at 05:54 PM • [link]
I think the hosts of the Today Show should be required to wear bodices, then have them ripped off LIVE! IN PERSON! AT ROCKA-FELLA PLAZA!
Kristen said on 06.18.08 at 06:01 PM • [link]
Once again, Mel is the bringer of awesome casserole.
Toddson said on 06.18.08 at 06:01 PM • [link]
I found it especially amusing that on the same page was a link to their segment called “hottest bachelor laughs about loincloth pose” and had pictures recreating “sexy poses” ... suitable for cheesy cover pictures.
Jennifer Armintrout said on 06.18.08 at 06:21 PM • [link]
Yeah, I’m totally going to let The Today Show make me feel inferior for wanting to read romances. Since they’re such hipsters over there.
Sarabeth said on 06.18.08 at 06:25 PM • [link]
I chose infuriating because I like to Hulk smash and don’t get a chance to do it often enough. The bodice ripping? Could be fun!
corrine said on 06.18.08 at 06:31 PM • [link]
At least they’re not alone; did anyone ever see Nora Roberts on Good Morning America? There’s nothing like a little condescending Charlie Gibson to start your morning off right.
But it makes one wonder: if it had been a Stephen King or James Patterson book coming out, what kind of patronizing questions (if any) would have been posted then?
It also makes one wonder: when did Danielle Steele become the poster child of the romance genre?
Claire said on 06.18.08 at 06:33 PM • [link]
10 points to Sarah for Hulk Smash!
holly said on 06.18.08 at 06:38 PM • [link]
Well, after my breast reduction a few years ago I threw out all my bodices; hell, sometimes I go without a bra. I think I can dig up a camisole to throw away. (And you know what? If you get a breast reduction, you basically get a free lift with it. 44 year old boobs with no sag. Wish I could say the same about all points south….)
And - excuse me for a minute, all you Jackie Collins and Danielle Steele fans - but I can’t stand either author, and it pisses me off that they are the two that are always trotted out when some talking head starts talking about romance novels. I can name 10 authors off the top of my head who kick Steele and Collins’ outdated, ungrammatical, inexcusably formulaic (does Danielle dictate her novels, a la Barbara Cartland?) asses.
And when someone smirks at my romance habit, I smile sweetly and say, “English lit major, 3.5, master in library science. And you?”
Jaci Burton said on 06.18.08 at 06:39 PM • [link]
I had to vote all of the above in order to make Mel’s day. ;-)
Mel-O-Drama said on 06.18.08 at 06:40 PM • [link]
I had to vote all of the above in order to make Mel’s day. ;-)
Jaci! You know me so well. *smooches*
Chrisbookarama said on 06.18.08 at 06:42 PM • [link]
*Hulk Smash* LOL!
Well, at least 55% say they do read romance, even if it’s at the beach (Who put the sand in the vaseline?)
Anyway, they put Kathy Lee back on TV. They’re already on my shit list.
Chelle_St said on 06.18.08 at 06:56 PM • [link]
Myself, I giggled at the You-Might-Also-Be-Interested-In-The-Following-Headlines section:
Send us photos of your bald and proud men - His Bald Pride, coming to a bookstore near you.
Also, naturally, the sweetly condescending and everso-helpful:
Want to save your marriage with sex? Write to us
Having trouble sleeping? E-mail us
Know a woman with a cause? Tell us about it
Are you a fashion disaster? Tell us about it
My personal favourite is
Photo gallery: Your festive wedding pets
because it conjures the mental image of my turtles in white bondage gear.
Mel-O-Drama said on 06.18.08 at 06:57 PM • [link]
I started a discussion on newsvine about the article. Feel free to comment.
http://oatmellow.newsvine.com/_news/2008/06/18/1587523-vote-do-you-read-romance-novels
(hoping the link shows up correctly…)
katiebabs said on 06.18.08 at 07:00 PM • [link]
Why do they ask if you read bodice rippers? I am trying to figure out when the last time I read a “bodice ripper” was? Maybe they should ask when was the last time you read a romance with the heroine as a hermaphrodite?
Jeaniene Frost said on 06.18.08 at 07:05 PM • [link]
I voted all the above.
Corrine said, “But it makes one wonder: if it had been a Stephen King or James Patterson book coming out, what kind of patronizing questions (if any) would have been posted then?”
Good point. I know I get sneered at just as much for reading horror as I do for reading/writing romance. The most common response I get when I say I read horror is, “Ew. You like that sick stuff?” as if there could be nothing literary or well-written or thought-provoking about a horror novel. Much like the wink-wink, nudge-nudge of people who sneer at romance saying, “Ew. You like that cheesy stuff?” as if there’s nothing literary, well-written, or thought provoking about that either.
And of course, if you ask the people who sneer at romance/horror, they will nine times out of ten confess that they haven’t read in either genre in a decade or more, if at all.
*rips bodice, revs chainsaw* ;-)
Mel-O-Drama said on 06.18.08 at 07:08 PM • [link]
sigh.
Let me try the discussion link again;
http://oatmellow.newsvine.com/
Jan said on 06.18.08 at 07:09 PM • [link]
Where is the PR from RWA when stuff like this hits the fan? I thought giving romance a better rep was part of the mission. Sic ‘em RWA.
Shanna said on 06.18.08 at 07:10 PM • [link]
Any network show that would hire Kathie Lee is obviously *not* in touch with what the public likes.
Cyranetta said on 06.18.08 at 07:20 PM • [link]
Just yesterday there was a conversation-starter in the Guardian circling a related wagon:
http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/books/2008/06/why_i_love_chicklit.html
I particularly like the damn-your-eyes photo of Joanna Trollope, who looks like she could freeze Kathy Lee in mid-inanity.
karmelrio said on 06.18.08 at 07:47 PM • [link]
Suck it, Kathie Lee.
Deb Kinnard said on 06.18.08 at 07:51 PM • [link]
I’m 100% with whomever said Kathie Lee should not be on TV. How/why could she stand being on so many years with the Ugliest Celebrity Alive? I think he got his start in the media when some producer types got silly over lunch and said to each other, “Let’s go out on Rodeo Drive and find the worst face we can, and hey! I know! Give him a talk show! Giggle snort.” Man, his very face makes me wanna hurl, and she’s not too far behind.
Arbiters of my reading material? I think not.
Mel-O-Drama said on 06.18.08 at 07:57 PM • [link]
FYI:
Barbara Vey (Publishers Weekly Blogger) is on it, too.
http://www.publishersweekly.com/blog/88000…/460028246.html
SB Sarah said on 06.18.08 at 07:58 PM • [link]
Oh, noes! Deb, dost thou dis the Reege? I love the Reege! He’s just so completely teflon unflappable! He listens to Dean Martin! He’s the REEGE!
He’s right up there with The Hoff in Sarah’s Galaxy of awesome.
But neither of them better tell me what I ought to be reading.
SonomaLass said on 06.18.08 at 08:13 PM • [link]
Here’s what I posted (or am trying to post) on Newsvine:
Christine Fletcher said on 06.18.08 at 08:24 PM • [link]
SonomaLass, good thing I wasn’t drinking coffee, or I’d a ruint my keyboard. Kudos!
Leeann Burke said on 06.18.08 at 08:52 PM • [link]
I read the options they’d posted on their website and my jaw dropped. How dare they qualify all wonderful romance books under such a name?
I don’t know about any other romance reader out there but when I think of a romance author Danielle Steel doesn’t come to mind. She’s probably the last author I’d consider as being a romance author.
snarkhunter said on 06.18.08 at 08:59 PM • [link]
I was under the impression that Danielle Steele’s books were ghost-written.
I haven’t read her, and don’t plan to, but I’ve heard they’re mind-bogglingly terrible. And given some of the stuff I have read (Fern Michaels, I’m glancing in your general direction), I have to wonder what that means.
Tina C. said on 06.18.08 at 09:09 PM • [link]
Or even better, they say they don’t read. (Or the ever popular excuse, “Oh, I don’t have time to read.”) I just want to say, “So you don’t read anything more taxing than a fast food menu or a stop sign and you presume to comment on what I’m reading? Bite me.” I’m too polite to actually say that out-loud, though, so I content myself with a raised eyebrow and an “Oh.” and leave it at that.
Nadia said on 06.18.08 at 09:11 PM • [link]
Oh, now I gave up on DS years and years ago, but I do retain a soft spot in my heart for her. The Promise was a bucketful of awesomeness to this 8th grade girl. But no, I don’t think of her when I think Poster Author for Romancelandia. And Jackie Collins is a whole different ballgame.
horse84: Surely Palomino was published by ‘84.
RStewie said on 06.18.08 at 09:12 PM • [link]
I voted here, voted there…AND left a comment!! Fuck MSNBC.
(If you scroll down, it has a link where you can “Discuss Story”.
I Discussed.
Chrisbookarama said on 06.18.08 at 09:26 PM • [link]
I particularly like the damn-your-eyes photo of Joanna Trollope
Snort! She has a “Kathy Lee, you disgust me” look about her. Is it Kathy or Kathie? Did she change it? I don’t watch her but she gave a hard time to a Mommy blogger on the show. I watched it on the ‘puter. The Mom looked like she was mentally setting her on fire.
I don’t think Danielle Steele is romance either, but I’ve only read maybe 2 in my life. I don’t care for her.
Suze said on 06.18.08 at 09:38 PM • [link]
Hey, I’m writing a romance where the heroine is a hermaphrodite!
I read a Danielle Steel when I was about 16 (and still willing to slog through a book I’m not enjoying), and never picked up another one by her. I’ve never tried Jackie Collins.
I did take a marketing seminar once, when they told us to make up questionnaires and word them such that every choice started with Yes!
Yes! Please send me a coupon for your service.
Yes! Please add me to your mailing list.
Yes! Please remove me from your mailing list.
Okay, then…
Ashley said on 06.18.08 at 09:42 PM • [link]
Why are these called bodice rippers? I haven’t read a bodice ripper since the ‘70s. No one writes them any more. They write Romance—Happily Ever After—Good Grief General Public, get it right!
Chrisbookarama said on 06.18.08 at 10:02 PM • [link]
Is a bodice a requirement in romance? Does the yoga loving, Prada wearing executive heroine wear a bodice under that suit just in case she meets a hero dying to rip it? Well? Is it?!
NavyMomSS said on 06.18.08 at 10:13 PM • [link]
NBC and the Today Show = Clueless!!!
shiloh walker said on 06.18.08 at 10:26 PM • [link]
Oh, I went with all of the above.
:) BTW, there’s an email addy at the bottom of the page for those who’d like to email their hulk-smash, bodice ripping, enraged comments…
.(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)
corinne said on 06.18.08 at 10:32 PM • [link]
bodice rippers??
Nifty said on 06.18.08 at 10:42 PM • [link]
No kidding. I definitely don’t consider her books to be romance novels, generally speaking. (She’s not even shelved in Romance. Why should she get credit for writing romance novels?)
Ri L. said on 06.18.08 at 10:42 PM • [link]
I look down on romance. I’m a supreme hater.
BUT.
Who the hell has the right to openly condescend to a legitimate fanbase on TV? That’s damn inconsiderate, and I share your outrage.
I know I’m completely misinformed about the genre, as my opinion has largely been swayed by dealing with Harlequin and its execrable marketing, which I find condescending itself. But I feel your pain because the stuff I enjoy—animation, cartoons, comics—is treated similarly. It’s a neverending battle to explain to some people that you like what you like and, for god’s sake, that’s your problem.
Kay Webb Harrison said on 06.18.08 at 11:26 PM • [link]
Below is the email I sent to .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address). I wrote and sent it before I read the comments here. I don’t usually include my qualifications, but I felt obliged to do so in my closing to this message.
Kay
[I copied and pasted the “quiz”; under it I wrote the following:]
This is a joke, right? Don’t “romance novels” account for at least 25% of all books sold? If you wanted to do a real readers’ survey, why did you add those ridiculous qualifiers? I don’t remember Matt L. asking Danielle Steele about the “bodice-rippers” she writes.
My answer is “Yes, I read romance novels, but very few of them are bodice-rippers.” I like romances with mystery/suspense elements and paranormal elements; I read historical and contemporary and futuristic romances. Maybe you should interview Nora Roberts who has written in all those romance genres, with nary a “bodice-ripper” among the over one hundred books she has crafted.
With disdain,
Kay Webb Harrison
B. S. (Secondary Education/Spanish), Old Dominion University, Jan., 1972
M. A. (Spanish), University of Virginia, May, 1975
Teacher of Spanish, retired
Norfolk, VA, USA
Gina Black said on 06.18.08 at 11:59 PM • [link]
I’m an all of the above, Mel dahlink.
And as far as the Today Show goes, they are so yesterday.
Chrissy said on 06.19.08 at 12:19 AM • [link]
Sorry about the bodice, sweetums, but at least you’ve got major league cleavage. Those gals are game day players.
You have to love Danielle Steele being held up as a standard.
wrd: south84
That’s a Mel-O note!
MoJo said on 06.19.08 at 12:32 AM • [link]
Uhm. I just want to be able to look good in a bodice. Where do I express my outrage over this injustice?
Jo said on 06.19.08 at 12:40 AM • [link]
Wow. This from a network that launched “Women@NBCU” with all the fanfare a few months ago (a, and I quote: combination of media targeting the valuable female demographic). No wonder they are the number four network. Geez.
I agree time to wear some bodices to the Rock. Or at least write some letters.
Leeann Burke said on 06.19.08 at 12:46 AM • [link]
Well said Kay. I share your comments. I’ll have to think long and hard about my email to NBC. I wonder if enough romance readers and authors email them if they will apologize. I doubt it!
Mac said on 06.19.08 at 01:03 AM • [link]
It’s funny how people like to sneer at genre, and then genre turns around and outsells everything. When did we become so embarrassed of fun? *clutches fantasy novels to bosom*
Like Poe and Dickens and Shakespeare were all high-brow. Yeah right.
Mac said on 06.19.08 at 01:05 AM • [link]
Re: Danielle Steele as poster child—isn’t she the highest selling author in the galaxy or something? That’s probably why, even if she’s pretty much her own genre, if you ask me. (Does she even write her own stuff anymore, or does she have a team? Or has she been replaced by a computer program?)
Jenns said on 06.19.08 at 01:07 AM • [link]
So many truly terrific, hilarious comments I don’t think there’s anything more (and certainly not better!) that I can hope to add.
Thank the inventor of bodices I wasn’t taking a sip of water as I read; I’d still be trying to clean up the mess.
I noticed that, as well as Danielle Steel, they added a link to an article about Jackie Collins beneath their quaint little poll. I think it’s general lack of understanding about the differences between women’s fiction with romantic (or, sometimes in Collins’ case, blatant sexual) elements, and the romance genre, that confuse non-romance readers.
As for the Today show, I think they’re pretty clueless about pop culture and women in general these days. (Adding Kathie Lee
is a huge giveaway about that.) How are they staying on the air?
amy lane said on 06.19.08 at 01:07 AM • [link]
I had no idea the prickweenies from my English department ran the Today Show! Damn, you’d think they’d be making enough money to get out of my hair….
Ms Manna said on 06.19.08 at 01:13 AM • [link]
I’m too busy giggling to be outraged, as I’m now picturing the Incredible Hulk doing HULK SMAAAAAAAASH while wearing a lacy little bodice.
Tae said on 06.19.08 at 01:13 AM • [link]
Oh, now I gave up on DS years and years ago,
Nadia, when I read this, the first thing I thought of was my Nintendo DS Lite because we often refer to it as a DS. My second thought was, WHY have you given up on the DS?
Then I read the rest of your post and realized we weren’t thinking of the same things. I’ve never read D.S. and I’ve never been inclined to either. I’m always surprised at how many of her books get made into TV movies though. I’m also surprised at how many hardcovers she has out. No one I know seems to read her books, so who is buying all of them???? Even when I worked at the public library we used to buy a bizillian copies of each of her books and they’d take up so much space.
kirsten saell said on 06.19.08 at 01:27 AM • [link]
I knew it! She’s in cahoots with the public library! Oh, sure, you librarians all look so innocent in your pearls and pince-nez, but I know what you’re up to, and the day will come, Mrs. Steinmetz, when you and your card catalogue will get your comeuppance! Mark. My. Words.
Bwahahahaha!!!
Mac said on 06.19.08 at 01:34 AM • [link]
Heh—you know, in my Translation Studies class we had lectures on romance novels, how the get translated differently both in other languages and in other countries, and what elements are changed, and what audience is targeted. (I think one English-language line that went something like “The ranch goes to whatever brother can hold onto it!” changed to “The ranch goes to the oldest brother!” in Italian. The story involved a woman who was trying to hold onto aforesaid ranch after all her brothers died, or disappeared, or turned into crappy people or something. And apparently the Italian books took some of the sex out. I think. This was a while ago.)
Virginia Shultz-Charette said on 06.19.08 at 01:43 AM • [link]
As if the Today Show actually had any intellectual content! Maybe if this poll were done on TV shows that had audiences that could read a book (and would know that Jackie Collins and Danielle Steele are not what most Romance readers consider the epitome of the genre), you would get the higher than 40% who said they read these books to escape.
I teach U.S. History and I let my students know that I read contemporary and historical romance. I, of course, also let them know that I read a great deal of non-fiction. At the History Association meeting I asked the students if they read historical romance or historical fiction - the answer was a resounding “yes”!
Writers like Jo Beverley really research their work and give us pedagogical types a flavor of the time period.
Kathie Lee, get a life- read a book- any book!
Michele said on 06.19.08 at 02:21 AM • [link]
Kathie Lee Gifford doesn’t strike me as the type who can read. And just thinking about her makes me want to gag as her brand of brainless perkiness is nauseating.
And when someone asks me what I read and write I say romance with a look that dares them to say something. And if they say something stupid and show misinformed they are about the genre I call them on it and make them look dumber than they already are.
Just like the Today show people.
ARomanceReader said on 06.19.08 at 02:52 AM • [link]
I posted at the MSNBC Today Show message board. It was a little easier to deal with than Newsvine.
Today Show message board
Freda said on 06.19.08 at 03:08 AM • [link]
In March of this year. And the hero was a satyr.
word: wish92
No, I don’t wish for 92 more stories featuring hermaphrodites and satyrs.
Keira Soleore said on 06.19.08 at 03:39 AM • [link]
How very annoying!! I voted at MSNBC and posted about it on my Facebook.
Cora said on 06.19.08 at 04:05 AM • [link]
This mainly happens to translated category romances, which are published either by an international Harlequin/Mills and Boon subsidiary or by a local publisher affiliated with them. Some changes are made to suit local customs/laws, which is what I imagine happened in the case cited (in much of Europe, it is still a traditional if not legal requirement that the oldest son inherits the farm). However, more commonly, scenes are shortened or cut altogether to meet the length requirements. In Germany, for example, anything from a 55000 word Harlequin Presents to a 85000 word Harlequin Superromance are published in the same 250 page booklets, which are much thinner than your average US/British category romance. Plus, English texts translated into German tend to turn out approx 10% longer than the source texts, due to differences and grammar and syntax, i.e. needing more words to say the same thing. I assume the same is true for Italian.
Hence, cuts are necessary in order to fit a translated category romance into the designated 250 page length. Sex scenes tend to be cut particularly often, because these are frequently the most superfluous bits of a book, which can be cut without losing much. Oh yes, and translators cannot be blamed for the cuts, because that’s usually the editor’s doing.
Regarding the topic, I read one Jackie Collins novel as a teenager and wouldn’t consider it romance. I may have read Danielle Steel, but don’t remember it. And I probably watched the Today Show at some point while in holiday in the US, but don’t remember that either. And yes, the poll was condescending.
Cora said on 06.19.08 at 04:13 AM • [link]
Fern Michaels has the dishonorable distinction of having written one of the first (and nearly last) romances I ever read, Valentina, first published in 1978. I got my hands on it approximately ten years later. That books could definitely be classified as a bodiceripper, featuring slavery, rape, torture and even a bit of lesbianism (with spanking!) during the crusades. And yes, it was as bad as it sounds.
When I got back into reading romance after having been nearly turned off the genre for good by the likes of Valentina, I was stunned to realize that Ms. Michaels was still writing, though she seems to be doing contemporaries these days. I’ve never tried another, the memory of Valentina was too painful.
briony said on 06.19.08 at 04:29 AM • [link]
Um, I think I’ll take reading an old-fashioned bodice ripper over watching the nimrods at the Today Show allow Fergie to grind her crotch and shake her tits at a bunch of twelve year olds in the front row of her concert on the plaza.
serious96: yup, 96% serious that there are bunch of dumbasses over at NBC
ajie said on 06.19.08 at 04:56 AM • [link]
Im not sure if y’all saw this already, but on the subject of bodice rippers:
http://pics.livejournal.com/magnetic_rose/pic/000qbgtf
That cover totally rocks! :D
Chris M. said on 06.19.08 at 05:52 AM • [link]
Okay, I voted all of the above. I’m not sure that I could add anything else to all that has been said above, and rather than risk repeating or looking/sounding like an idiot compared to all you smartypants… I just say… “Ditto”
And, ajie… that cover is hilarious. So, does that mean HIS bodice got ripped?
Sindee said on 06.19.08 at 05:59 AM • [link]
All I can say is “OUCH!”
Anyhow, the “bodice rippers” have now taken the lead. Ha! How do you like that, NBC?
ev said on 06.19.08 at 01:58 PM • [link]
Holly- I am considering a breast reduction. Everyone I know that has had one loves that they aren’t hanging below the equator anymore.
were19
Mel-O-Drama said on 06.19.08 at 03:04 PM • [link]
The results as of this morning:
TODAY’s Question
Do you read romance novels? * 8271 responses
46% Yes, yes, yes! Bodice-rippers are my ultimate escape.
31% No way. I don’t touch those books.
23% Sometimes, while on vacation or at the beach.
since “sometimes” is a “yes” it looks like 69% of the 8271 people who participated do, in fact, read bodice rippers. Gee, who knew?
Of course, it not being scientific at all, I’m sure the percentages will be discounted…
Oh and thanks to everyone who ripped my bodice yesterday. I woke this morning, thoroughly ravished and very satisfied.
snarkhunter said on 06.19.08 at 03:38 PM • [link]
Cora—I read one of her contemporaries at my parents’ place a couple of years back, and I was *appalled*. The plot was some sad sack making a life for herself, which involved a make-over. The book was written and published in the mid- to late-90s. The makeover? Would’ve been haute couture in the mid-80s. And we all know how weird haute couture is anyway.
Plus, the plot just ... it was weird. Characters appeared and disappeared with no rhyme or reason. There was a “mystery,” but it was profoundly stupid and ended with someone killing herself with a hot shower. Yes. A hot shower. Who knew?
karmelrio said on 06.19.08 at 03:49 PM • [link]
Re: “bodice ripper” - there’s an untold Janet Jackson joke in here somewhere…
Mel-O-Drama said on 06.19.08 at 03:52 PM • [link]
[quotethere’s an untold Janet Jackson joke in here somewhere… ]
LMAO
“Please excuse my book’s wardrobe malfunction…”
Sandra D said on 06.19.08 at 04:14 PM • [link]
Ajie, that cover really twists it around doesn’t it, usually the hero is the prick.
badaBA! I’ll be here all week, try the veal!
Katie Reus said on 06.19.08 at 04:34 PM • [link]
Sonomalass….your poll is hilarious! I almost spit out my Starbucks (and received a few odd stares)!!
Miri said on 06.19.08 at 05:14 PM • [link]
Oh Oh! could I have Hulk or rather David Banner (as played by Edward Norton) rip my bodice?
Morning and Talk shows make me vomit, I out grew them a very long time ago. I saw the Kathie Lee v. Dooce Interview on Dooces website. Kathie Lee sounded like an ignorant 60 yearold cheerleader. And Dooce was all class, ALL class.
katiebabs said on 06.19.08 at 05:36 PM • [link]
If I had my bodice ripped I would think it was hot and then later ask for money to get my dress fixed.
Holly said on 06.19.08 at 05:51 PM • [link]
Ev - that is so true. The doctor who did mine - he also did my sister some 15 years ago - said that every woman he’s ever done one for was happy - he NEVER met a reduction patient who regretted it. Some women regret getting them enlarged, no one regrets getting them cut off. You suddenly have a visible waist - it’s incredible.
The pain was somewhat less than I’d expected, and Darvocet was plenty strong enough to handle it. I attended a New Years Eve party two days later with my bandages all peeping out of my top (it was family and close friends).
You can’t pick up anything >5 pounds for a few weeks, so that was kind of difficult cause I had a small child, but that was the only difficulty.
I LOVE my boobs. I know that sounds icky, but I just…I love them.
Mac said on 06.19.08 at 05:56 PM • [link]
Holly—I know enough people in your situation that it doesn’t sound icky at all. I’m happy for you!
Cora:
(I love learning industry inside info like this. ^___^)
(Holy alliteration!)
I can see this. A magazine I worked for had to cut 20 percent of every article for the Japanese edition, kanji being larger than Roman type. The translator wouldn’t be responsible for marketing decisions or final-content judgement calls. Actually, I think cuts were made by editorial before the copy went to the translation department.
They really didn’t cover any of what you’re saying in my class. It was all theoretical: Did the absence of sex reflect Italian sensibilities (the Italian students were divided on this), or did all the sex being there in the first place represent American public repression busting out in the privacy of literature, and which countries had laws that stayed out of the bedrooms of private citizens NOT LIKE YOU YANKS (at which point I hid under my desk, as the only Yank there)...
Needless to say, the industry info would have been slightly more relevant to my current life.
Lori said on 06.19.08 at 06:24 PM • [link]
Re: the weirdness of Fern Michaels
If I remember correctly “Ms. Michaels” is actually two people who each write different parts of the book. I read one and got the impression that they don’t communicate very well when it comes to putting the parts together. Thus, the weird.
Lori Borrill said on 06.19.08 at 07:06 PM • [link]
How dare they call them bodice rippers. Everyone knows it’s referred to as “porn” these days!
Nicolette Rivers said on 06.19.08 at 07:20 PM • [link]
I thought Fern Michaels was sisters. One of them had a son or spouse named Michael. Maybe both. I could be dreaming this.
Eh, I don’t really disdain the old romances, because styles change and the stuff was according to contemporary sensibilities at that time. Having just turned 40 (dammit, dammit, dammit), my formative years were spent reading Fern Michaels, Danielle Steele, VC Andrews (version 1), Patricia Matthews, Bertrice Small…
Most of those books wouldn’t interest me today, but I love them when I was a kid, and indeed they answered some questions about the birds and the bees I couldn’t ask elsewhere. And I took a whole lot of grief from teachers. Well, once I got out of Catholic School where the VC was well hidden in my book bag. Those teachers taught me the meaning of condescending.
Styles and sensibilities will continue to change, and twenty years most of the books in favor now will seem dated. It happens, and it’s okay, because the writers then will still owe a debt to the women I read and the ones who are read today.
girls54: Nah, this girl is only 40. (Dammit, dammit, dammit!)
Holly said on 06.19.08 at 07:30 PM • [link]
Nicolette: word, sister (I am 44. still getting used to it).
I read bodice rippers - the old timey stuff, Kathleen E. Woodiwiss, Rosemary Rogers, Tender Loving Rape and that kind of stuff - in junior high, which was the 70s (my mom monitored my TV and movies, never glanced at what I read; the romance stuff did no lasting damage but after reading The Last Picture Show at age 11, it took me YEARS to work up the nerve to read McMurtry again. As I recall, it was something about the heiffer….don’t ask.)
Anyway, yes, the styles do change; back in the 70s the heroines were all impossibly sheltered 17 year olds and the action would today probably be called BDSM and sometimes it really was rape -am I remember correctly? I mean, modern romances still tend to feature virgins who enjoy their first time, noviates who spontaneously decide that going down seems like a delicious thing to do, etc. etc., but I when I remember the bodice rippers from the 70s, I tend to think “ick! we thought that was okay?”
AgTigress said on 06.19.08 at 07:36 PM • [link]
According to Wikipedia, Fern Michaels is one female person:
Of course, Wikipedia is not always right!
:)
Cheryl Kaye Tardif said on 06.19.08 at 08:04 PM • [link]
Okay, I’ll say this…in a whisper…I have been reading bodice rippers since I was a teen and found my mother’s stash. Of course, back then, the ripping wasn’t quite so graphic (darn!) as it is now.
But even now, twenty years later (ok, thirty!), I’m drawn to tales of the south, when women were either wealthy and graceful or impoverished and had to marry the nearest land owner to survive. And what about those men? Strong, lurking hulks with attitude! ‘Calgon, take me away!’
Nothing like a good dose of fantasy before reality slaps you in the face. Let the ripping begin!
Cheryl Kaye Tardif,
suspense author
(ok, I add a bit of spicy romance to the mix, but nothing like my mother’s books—YET! lol)
Lori said on 06.19.08 at 08:04 PM • [link]
Huh, I was sure I remembered Fern Michaels being a pen name for two people, derived from a house plant and the fact that both women were married to men named Michael. I really hope Wikipedia is wrong because if I made up that houseplant thing I’m seriously worried about myself.
Cheryl Kaye Tardif said on 06.19.08 at 08:11 PM • [link]
Sorry, Lori. Fern Michaels is one person, but she sees herself as two…
From Accessmy library.com:
Fern Michaels is the pen name and alter-ego of Kuczkir, and Fern, the author, occasionally peeks out behind Mary’s eyes. Kuczkir makes the distinction between her two personas. “Fern acts like a lady. She wears Armani, drives a Mercedes Benz, wears Bruno Magli shoes, loves Chanel handbags and sports a few diamonds on her ears and fingers. “Mary drives a four-wheel drive, wears sneakers and blue jeans, drinks beer and smokes cigarettes,” Kuczkir says with a smile…
Cheryl Kaye Tardif, suspense author
Lori said on 06.19.08 at 08:16 PM • [link]
Darn. My only comfort is that I think that’s a little weirder than my imagined houseplant.
Leslie Dicken said on 06.19.08 at 08:34 PM • [link]
Can’t comment on it any better than what Barbara Vey said at her blog:
Judith Loue said on 06.19.08 at 09:55 PM • [link]
first off…who in their right mind would take the TODAY SHOW seriously…i’m 57 and remember when it did mean…something…now it’s a bunch of “pretty"people trying to upstage each other while discussing meaningless topics…with KATHIE LEE on board that ship is sinking fast….so what they don’t know about Romance Fiction is proportional to what they don’t know about jackshit to begin with…we’re all safe then they count for naught my sweeties…what is a good bodice ripper anyway? i need titles!
Tae said on 06.20.08 at 02:45 AM • [link]
Judith Michael is the husband and wife team of Judith Barnard and Michael Fain
I remember seeing their books on the shelves when I was reshelving the Fern Michaels books.
I love that working in a public library teaches me things like this
holly said on 06.20.08 at 03:54 AM • [link]
the only husband and wife writing team I’ve ever liked was Tom and Sharon Curtis, who as Laura London wrote my all time favorite romance novel - EVA - called The Windflower. First romance I ever read (this was years ago) that was really well written - lyrical, moving, funny, poignant, with three dimensional characters and obscure literary references and everything. Love that book. I think readers bugged them for a while to do a sequel featuring Cat - the cabin boy-slash-heir to an Earldom with blonde hair down to his butt, a childhood spent in a Carribean brothel (he was merchandise), and an indeterminate (or at least unspecified) sexual orientation. I mean really, I’d never dreamed a romance novel would go places like that - maybe that was one of the first, I’m not really up on the historical progression of romance fiction (not being facetious - I know that there has been progressive development in the romance genre, and I think it’s worthy of study, particularly as it relates to and reflects popular culture - as in, Rosemary Rogers and the 70s. discuss.)
And with that thread jack, I depart.
Mary Lynn said on 06.20.08 at 05:03 AM • [link]
Please. Today has the WORST interviewers EVER.- Lauer, Viera, Gibson and now TSTL Gifford?!! Today lost any claim to valid journalistic integrity years ago!
Nicolette Rivers said on 06.20.08 at 06:21 AM • [link]
Holly,
Oh, there was definite rape. It was pretty standard. But it was okay, because he was the hero. (Yes, I am being sarcastic.) I remember one book where the heroine lost her virginity to a rape by the hero, he continued to have hate sex her during a sea voyage, he falls off the ship (maybe, anyhow, he’s gone for a while), the crew rapes her, causing her to miscarry the hero’s baby, she eventually has an affair with a pirate, meets the hero again, finds out he’s married, continues to have violent and misogynistic sex with him, marries a guy she later finds out is gay, is sold into white slavery by the hero’s wife where she is raped again, hooks up with the hero again, becomes pregnant, runs off, and the hero comes looking for her after his wife is killed by her insane and bisexual cousin.
I clearly remember the hero looking at the son he didn’t know he had with a look of “stuptified amazement,” which spell check is telling me isn’t a word.
Anyhow, back then there seemed to be some sort of weird belief that a hero had to be mean, and was vindicated by the fact that the heroine orgasmed when he forced himself on her, and I swear that a whole lot of readers must have bought into it. Of course, these were the days of Luke and Laura.
Even the category stuff bought into it. A woman in a Harlequin had a good chance of making it through the book with her virginity, but there was still a lot of forceful stuff at the hands of some playboy count who was 15 years older or so. Often the playboy count would think the heroine was a tramp, which was laughable because the standard heroine was a blushing, simpering innocent. I remember one book, a Harlequin, I’m thinking the writer was a woman named Jessica Steele, in which the hero attempts to rape the heroine—thinking she is the town bike, which makes it okay—and the heroine tells him that when he realizes what he’d done self-disgust would rise up like bile in his throat.
That’s right—I can remember Harlequins from nearly 30 years ago, but I can’t remember my telephone number some days. :)
The first “bodice ripper” I ever read was Blaze of Passion by Stephanie Blake, and I think that was a guy writing under a female pen name. The most memorable things about it was the light bulb moment when I found out about erections—my friend had told me the basics about, but the missing detail was the turgidness—and thinking the heroine, who was in her thirties at the end, was really old.
Patricia Matthews was my favorite. The heroine was usually with two different men, and the way you knew which one was the hero was to read carefully and decipher which one was more hung. Sometimes the heroine would just gape at it. Well, I’m sure she was gaping after, too, but let’s not go there.
The first Harlequin I read was Yesterday’s Scars by Carole Mortimer. The hero’s name might have been Ran, but I could be confusing the name with a guy in a Barbara Michaels book. This was back when category writers mentioned hard thighs a lot, and we were supposed to pick up on the euphemism. If they were bold, they’d talk about manhoods. If tornadoes or vortexes were mentioned it meant the heroine had orgasmed.
I loved me some Janet Dailey as a kid—before she lost her mind and started thinking she was Nora Roberts.
And this has been: Tales of An Old Chick’s Bodice Ripper Reading Past. Where did I leave my glasses?
ev said on 06.20.08 at 02:55 PM • [link]
Holly- I was just gifted with a copy of the Windflower by a fellow Bella over at Lifetime. She is always going on and on and on about it. So when she came up with a copy (do you know they sell for $30 and more, in pb???), I snagged it. I wanted to see what all the hype was about.
I am soooo glad that I did. It is by far now one of my fave books. I spent an afternoon sitting on my swing outside just devouring it. (It was close to 100 degrees outside- so I put a fan on me, instead of getting up and going in. I didn’t want to be disturbed by anything.)
I really wish they had written a follow up to it with Cat. I did find an interview with them that said they were writing another book, but it never came to be. That was there last one for some reason.
As for the boobs, I just had a hysterectomy in March and there was a woman across the hall from me who had a reduction and went home the next day. Said she was sore but it wasn’t too bad. I don’t think she remembers that in the middle of the night she was screaming in pain. The surgery is actually my next step. Between my dr and I we will get the insurance to pay for it- backaches and headaches need to go away. I, however, am using it as a bribe to myself, once I lose more weight. Otherwise I will be off balance or out of wack, or just out of proportion.
I have had the big boobs since 6th grade but then it was more of a Dolly Parton look- I was a size 2. Now I have lost 35 lbs and have more to lose. I will get there someday.
holly said on 06.20.08 at 03:27 PM • [link]
Ev: I had a hysterectomy a year before the breast reduction. The hyseterectomy was way more painful. I can’t believe WF is selling for $30.00 - I need to track down a copy - this will be like my third, and I’m not losing this one! I’m an English lit major. I barely remember any poetry and I can’t quote the classics, but I remember whole lines from The Windflower.
Nicolette: girl, you are bringing back memories; I hadn’t thought about those old books in years. I remember exactly how shocked I was reading about erections, cause that was how I first learned the mechanics of the whole thing. Of course, for years afterwards I thought it was standard for a man and a woman to orgasm simulatneously.
Even back then I didn’t have any patience for the “clouds of bliss” and “throbbing manhoods” style - I wanted details. I think I remember Janet Dailey’s first “explicit”, non-Harlequin romance - it involved a chick who got involved with a South American revolutionary - in one scene he whipped her - like, whipped her, in front of other people - but it was necessary, you see, cause she had challeneged his authority and everyone’s life depended on him, and he needed everyone’s loyalty and he couldn’t be seen to favor her - or something stupid like that.
There was another one in the Southern plantation subgenre - the heroine was an English chick who was raped and subsequently married off to a pirate/planation owner; there’s a scene with her, the hero and his brother back at the plantation, and they’re trying to get her to talk with a Southern accent, and she tries but it comes out like the slaves’ accents. And they all think that’s just hi-larious.
And then there was Rosemary Rogers, who I remember as a kind of Jackie Susann type - very much a product and exemplar of the whole sick 70s culture.
And Nicolette, you’re my new BTF (Best Thread Friend) for your use of the word turgidness.
LeaF said on 06.20.08 at 03:51 PM • [link]
LOL - Great come back. My favourite is the person who smirks and makes a comment such as, “Oh ah, you, like read those books, my Mom (meaning an “old” person such as myself with a bodice) like reads those (grimance of facial expression) too.”
I usually respond, “Did you know that ‘like’ is a preposition used in the English language to introduce a simile? Therefore, you have used the word ‘like’ in an incorrect context on 2 occassions in that sentence. Perhaps if you read a book, or was awake in English class in school you may know the correct use of the preposition ‘like’.” I know - mean. But, hey, if you dish it out you must learn to take it too!!!
It does seem that television hosts have “interview favourites”, no matter what the area of discussion. But, Collins and Steele? Pleese, not good examples of romance writing at its best…
Having said that, I don’t watch the “Today Show”, (too busy reading bodice rippers) but maybe a topic for discussion on that show could be English language and grammatical usage. No, too boring and likely beneath Kathi Lee….
Oops - sorry - I’m changing topic - I think bodice rippers - reading them, that is, was the area (no pun intended) under discussion. Right there with all you ladies - reading them and ripping….. Enjoyed all your comments, you are too funny!!!
SB Sarah said on 06.20.08 at 03:54 PM • [link]
EV: I had a breast reduction, too. Um.. lemme think…fourteen years ago. The surgery has changed a lot since I had it, and the pain was totally manageable, then, and now.
The main difference as I understand it is technique. There’s also a greater chance of preserving ability to breastfeed now vs. then. I couldn’t make a meal out of what milk I had for either of my children. I was more like a snack - post partum I named my boobs Ben & Jerry. But my friend’s surgeon assured her that her ability to breastfeed should be mostly intact.
But in terms of pain, no worries. Percocet and then Tylenol were all I needed for the first week or so.
Nicolette Rivers said on 06.20.08 at 08:08 PM • [link]
Rosemary Rogers! I remember her. She had a series of books with the same characters—Steve in Ginny—who never seemed to learn any relationship skills. They just kept repeating the same mistakes again and again.
Years later there was a book with their daughter as the heroine and Ginny discussed when she first met Steve and he mistook her for a hooker. Somehow it didn’t seem as romantic.
I think on eof the things that has changed is that few of the characters back then were compatible outside of the insane lust. If they were real people they would pretty much be Denise Richards and Charlie Sheen. Or Pamela and Tommy Lee.
ev said on 06.21.08 at 03:44 AM • [link]
Thank you guys for the pep talk on the boob reduction. At least I won’t have to worry about breast feeding anymore. Especially at my age. Maybe that will be my 50th b’day present to myself!!
The hysterectomy was just so fun. they did it laproscopically (and only took the uterus, so menopause wasn’t triggered) but it hurt like a bitch especially after they took my morphine drip away. Bastards. that was a nice 3 day stay in the hospital. And I needed it. No roomie either. And our maternity ward has these nice, new comfy gel beds that move six ways to sunday.
I have been off work since the end of March and have to go back in July. Don’t want to. I really need to find a new job. sigh.
holly said on 06.21.08 at 06:21 AM • [link]
I had an emergency C section two days before the hysterectomy - which means I got the vertical cut, instead of the nice horizontal one. And a C-section leaves you with the brown paper bag flap on your tummy. There’s a plastic surgeon in town - and he’s apparently really good, he’s done many of my sister’s friends - who is offering a special on tummy tucks this summer. No, I can’t justify the expense. No, I’m not the type of woman who gets, or thinks about getting, plastic surgery. Yes, I’d do it if my husband would let me spend the money. I could get it for 18 months, no interest credit!! I’d love for the stomach to match the boobs. But alas….
Anyone ever read a romance where the heroine has a C section stomach? Maybe I should write one…
ev said on 06.21.08 at 02:23 PM • [link]
I vaguely remember a book about a herione with a c-section, but of course, I think she had a perfect stomache after and just a small scar. Go figure. I think it was years and years ago. One of those dr. ones.
I would love a tummy tuck too. And suck my thighs. I don’t care about gray hair and wrinkles.
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