Bitchin' Blog Posts
The Elements of Love and Hate
by SB Sarah | by SB Sarah | September 30, 2008 | Tuesday at 1:49 pm | 80 CommentsIn a recent comment, Jennifer Echols mentioned No Plot? No Problem, a how-to manual by Chris Baty, founder of NaNoWriMo.
According to Echols, “He suggests that before you sit down to write a novel, you make a list of everything you love to see in novels. When you write your own novel, you should put the stuff from your list in there. Then you should make a second list of everything you hate to see in novels. When you write your own novel, you should make sure none of the stuff from that second list creeps in when you’re tired.”
Ooh, neat. But looking at that idea from the perspective of a reader, I can generate an equally useful list - for shopping and seeking recommendations.
Here’s my list:
Things I Love:
Characters who are mysterious, who don’t say much, but whose deeds are wonderfully telling and could reveal a character who keeps a great deal of depth hidden. I’m all about the steamy unspoken ardor.
Example: Gleason’s Max from the Gardella Chronicles, who carries a burnt rose in his pocket from when Victoria lit it on fire to try to see in the dungeon where they were trapped. He kept it - and would be mortified if anyone found out that he did and asked him why.
Characters who are genuinely funny, not just in a slapstick way but in a witty, clever, and realistic way.
Example: Deirdre Martin’s Power Play, in which a soap opera actress falls for a hockey player. The hockey team’s scenes in particular had me giggling to the point that Hubby wanted to know what was wrong with me.
Plots that are sustained by multiple threads of tension, some large and some small, that don’t line up like links on a chain one after another merely for additional pages. Wait, that’s more of a hate. So let’s go there.
Things I Hate:
Dialogue that is completely unrealistic.
Characters getting angry for no good reason, except to sustain conflict. Flipping out over minor things, getting all icy and disdainful for really stupid shit? GAH. (Harlequin Presents and Helen Brooks, I am LOOKING AT YOU.)
What do you want as a reader? What don’t you want? And as a writer, do you write the plots you love to read?
Filed: General Bitching, Random Musings, The Link-O-Lator
Tagged: shopping, recommendations, nanowrimo, harlequin
Lizzie (greeneyed fem) said on 09.30.08 at 02:08 PM • [link]
Man, it would take a lot more time for me to put together a list. The first thing I thought of, though, is a scene or plot thread where the female protagonist rebels. And I don’t mean a mini-bellion, like snapping at her uncle and then apologizing through gritted teeth. I mean a giant balls-out FUCK YOU to her old life.
The first two I thought of were The Blue Castle —I re-read the scene when Valancy goes home and her rosebush is blooming and she gathers roses in her arms and then meets her homecoming-queen cousin on the walk over and over and over again. *sigh*
The other is in a YA novel, The True Confessions of Charlotte Doyle. I love the scene where she cuts off her hair in the hurricane.
Grace said on 09.30.08 at 02:42 PM • [link]
This is how I finally managed to start writing my first novel (still a work in progress). Instead of getting hung up on things I ought to do, I decided just to write the kind of stuff I always love reading. It makes writing a lot easier and a lot more fun!
Elizabeth Wadsworth said on 09.30.08 at 02:56 PM • [link]
Let’s see… things I love:
1. A satisfying ending, which is not necessarily the same as a HEA, but one that makes me go, “Yeah. that’s the way it should be.”
2. Lots of seemingly unconnected plot threads that all come together in a perfect, surprising package—the best example of this I can think of is Dirk Gently’s Holistic Detective Agency, by the late, great Douglas Adams.
3. In first-person narratives, a strong individual voice that draws you into the protagonist’s head—Jim Butcher does a great job of this with Harry Dresden, e.g.
4. Characters I want to meet and hang out with.
5. Consistent and believable world-building—especially important in SF and fantasy
6. Smart, funny, believable dialogue that defines character AND drives the plot
Things I hate:
1. Supposedly bright characters who act like idiots just to further the plot
2. Conflict just for the sake of conflict
3. Deus ex machinas that come out of nowhere
4. Present tense. I know this is supposed to give a sense of immediacy to a narrative, but for me it’s the literary equivalent of eating about half a pound of chocolate-covered espresso beans. It makes me jittery and unfocused, and I refuse to read any book that’s written entirely in the present tense, no matter how good it may be.
5. Paragraphs that go on and on and on—my eyes need a break at some point, or I start to skim.
6. Loathsome or TSTL protagonists that the reader is clearly supposed to like and identify with
There are probably many more, but that’s all I can come up with for now.
Julianna said on 09.30.08 at 03:00 PM • [link]
I love characters who are passionate about something - an ideal, a way of life - and who make you feel that passion.
Kathsan said on 09.30.08 at 03:01 PM • [link]
This is more a thing I hate than a list, but oh well. I am not ashamed to say that I am a fan of the Twilight Series, just because it was fun and distracting. But when I got to the last book, I was disappointed, as were many readers. The reason:
The ending was too. Damn. Happy.
Now, I am a devotee of happy endings. I have been known to imagine my own endings when the real ones aren’t happy enough for me. But it simply didn’t work here. Trying not to spoil the book here, but in short there was this setup for a huge, grandiose battle, a la Lord of the Rings—and it didn’t happen. This can work, but only when written EXTREMELY carefully by the author, and it wasn’t the case here. I also love Harry Potter, and though the ending of the last book broke my heart, it was REAL. It was a battle, and good people, characters I loved, died. It’s a consequence of war. Shit happens.
Basically I hate it when there’s all this dramatic setup and then it just fizzles out. Or jumps off a cliff. Or whatever.
Elizabeth Wadsworth said on 09.30.08 at 03:19 PM • [link]
Oh, and here’s one more for my hate list: overt preaching by an author. I dislike being beaten over the head with a message, even if it’s one I agree with.
sid said on 09.30.08 at 03:36 PM • [link]
Hmmm haven’t given this enough thought ... but i love it when they there’s some sort of suspence and you’re just sitting there on the edge of your seat hoping that the main character doesn’t come into any harm.
Midknyt said on 09.30.08 at 03:41 PM • [link]
Kathsan, I am so with you on the Twilight ending. What the hell was that? I’m half suprised I didn’t see the sentence “And they all walk happily into the sunset together. The end.” Ugh. If I hadn’t been on a twelve hour flight when the Jacob-narrated section ended, I don’t know if I would have bothered to keep reading anyway. Of course, that might have to do with wanting to give Bella a good bitch-slap since the end of Twilight.
That aside, one thing I like, particularly with the historicals that I gravitate towards, is a strong female character. She can have her damsel in distress moment, as long as it’s worthy of distress and she kicks some ass herself. One of my favorites was Kristen in Hearts Aflame - there is not one part in there were she isn’t holding her own, and she even rescues the guy.
But oh, how I hate a woman who is so weak she doesn’t deserve to live. There was one, which was one of the worst historicals I’ve read, and I remember the girl got tied up and after the guy saved her he was all “how could they do such a monstrous thing” and she was in pieces because she was tied up. To a chair. For maybe five minutes. The horror!
This book (which I can’t remember the name, but it was set in the old west) had the worst sex scene ever. So bad, I committed it to memory from rereading it to make sure that was it. I guess this would be another one on my list - if you’re not doing erotica, you need to find the balance where the sex is not so much that it takes away from the story, but not so little that it takes away from the story either.
The sex scene, where she loses her virginity:
And then she felt him place himself where no one but she had touched before.
That’s it. The whole thing, end of the chapter.
He didn’t even tie her up to a chair first. ;)
DS said on 09.30.08 at 03:41 PM • [link]
Even if characters are heroic archetypes, I want them to be real. The first time I remember realizing how much better this oculd be than heroic heroism was T. H. White’s retelling of the Arthur legends.
I hate it when I read a story that seems to be a mishmosh of plot points from another author. Anne Stuart’s The Spinster and the Rake, an out of print but highly sought out regency is essentially bits from Heyer novels stitched together with misinformation and anachronisms. If an author is going to deal with the same themes as another writer it needs to be transformative not imitative.
Hate, hate, hate heroines who are magic healers—especially if they are noble self sacrificing healers. Honestly, that is one stereotype I would like to see buried in a very deep hole.
Ri L. said on 09.30.08 at 03:44 PM • [link]
I love cracks in reality. I’m rereading my beloved and well-thumbed Rumer Godden collection, which is all about the secret inner lives of dolls, and every so often they will wish and sometimes reach a girl’s heart. I love when something paranormal or magical happens that’s written in a way where it could almost—almost—happen in real life.
But I hate when a writer belabors his/her point. I don’t want to hear the same explanation five times in the same chapter of how troubled a character is and why, for example. I just took an editing test for a prospective new job wherein I had to edit a chapter that did exactly that—every other sentence re-explained that this character returning home had no friends and was a pariah in his town because he was a soldier from the South who decided to fight for the Union. GAH. Show, don’t tell.
Keyword: able19—I was able to write better than that when I was 19.
robinjn said on 09.30.08 at 03:47 PM • [link]
I confess I’m a huge sucker for the strong male who reveals much more with his actions than his words. I’m rediscovering Heyer and she’s so often a master at this, especially These Old Shades and Devil’s Cub.
The movie that epitomizes this for me is Tequila Sunrise, where Mel Gibson so obviously has a huge crush on Michelle Pfeiffer, le sigh…
Wendy said on 09.30.08 at 03:57 PM • [link]
Agree! I heard an interview with a female author who had this exact stereotype in her fantasy series, and the interviewer (a man, by the way) straight out asked if she didn’t think it was just a bit sexist that only female wizards were healers and the author said, well, that’s just the way the world is set up. And I went ‘Gah! You make the world you’re writing in! Don’t let assumptions or stereotypes drive it, make conscious choices.’
My list: I like great dialogue from realistic characters; I hate plot for page-filling sake (same series as above, actually), too much description, and sad endings just because the writer thinks that’s ‘literary’.
Ashwinder said on 09.30.08 at 03:57 PM • [link]
I tend to cringe when reading historicals and the heroine starts sounding like a modern feminist. I realise it’s the author’s attempt to get the reader to identify with the heroine, and also to give her some spunk, but come on. Where does this desire to get out from under the masculine oppression come from if she’s never known anything else? It’s just not believable to me. Make your characters products of their times and yet sympathetic and someone I can still identify with, and I’ll love you!
ev said on 09.30.08 at 04:04 PM • [link]
I just finished the first book, the Rest Falls Away, and am looking forward to the rest of the books. Now I really am.
Oh god I hate that. Especially, for me, when they beat you with a religious perspective in a story line that otherwise you are enjoying. Patricia Rosemoor’s The Last Vampire comes to mind.
I love it when the characters are strong and have personalities that don’t depend on someone else- clingy heroines for one, I hate. Go whine somewhere else. Go kick some ass, figuratively or literally, either one. If you are going to cry or scream, make sure it’s for a good reason. Then go kick some ass.
I hate it when sex taks over the story (are you listening LKH???). If you can’t take out the sex scenes and still have a story, it belongs in another section of the bookstore.
I love Jim Butcher. I have #1 sitting right here next to me to re-read. I love the voice in the books, the way they are told and bring you into the story. Simon R. Green does it well too. But you need a really strange bend to your mind to enjoy his stuff. I am bent.
I hate it when a writer goes on and on and on and on to describe something- probably why I could never get throught the Lord of the Rings trilogy.
My spamword- total 69. hehehehe
LadyRhian said on 09.30.08 at 04:09 PM • [link]
Things I hate; Characters we are told are smart, but if you weren’t told they are supposedly smart, you’d think they were the offspring of two village idiots from the way they act and live their lives;
Villains who go from well-nuanced villainy for a reason to sheer unrelenting “kills children and kittens with abandon” batshit crazy within the course of a few pages to a paragraph(!) just because the story needs an OMFG Scary villain to menace the hero/heroine;
Heroines who “do the stupid” because the author needs to eke out a few additional pages to their magnum opus;
Keeping romantic heroes and heroines apart because of reasons that would take less than a minute and an actual conversation to clear up in real life. Additionally, getting pissed off over trivial shit because the author needs some way to keep the two apart and build romantic tension;
Villains who are unashamedly “teh ebbul” and seem to spend their days doing nothing but abusing other people, taking and making slaves, making plans to wipe out their foes or anyone who goes against them, torturing people, killing kittens and small children and whose free time seems to consist of doing things like tripping people for the lulz and taking candy from small babies. They like no one, love no one but themselves and never just rest on their laurels or take an night off to do normal stuff. ie, evil for the sake of evil;
My absolute worst two hates are: heroine falls in love with her rapist and/or a man treats her badly; and when everyone in the story is lying to the hero (including the heroine) and they end up happily together anyway (I’m looking at your novel “Tempted”, Laurel Ames!)
KimberlyD said on 09.30.08 at 04:20 PM • [link]
I’m not going to re-list some of the stuff other people have said, because they’ve all said it so much better than I would. But I have a hate to add to the list. I hate when a male character is all broody and silent and angry and tortured all the time (actually, I like that character. The hate part is coming up so bear with me!) but after he falls in love with the heroine, he turns into a happy guy who’s brimming with affection and good cheer. A lot of Sherilyn Kenyon’s heroes do this. The big, bad scary men suddenly turn into lovable teddy bears. Sure, loving a woman can change you and make you nicer. But thats just an unbelievable 180.
Silver James said on 09.30.08 at 04:36 PM • [link]
No shit! I wrote a manuscript where the “hero” raped the heroine (masked in his eyes as “well, her words said no but I knew she really wanted it”). She prosecuted him in the end. I was told it would never get published because there was no HEA. Dude! Depends on the viewpoint. The heroine was ecstatic that he was tried and convicted! That was also 30 years ago. I quit reading romances not long after for all the dislikes cited by previous posters.
Now that I’m reading them again? Almost all of the above and then specifically -
Likes:
A. A good, tight story
B. Realistic characters and reactions
C. “Different sex” - this means that if I read the first sex scene, it isn’t repeated all but verbatim later in the book or in subsequent books if a series (I’ll add this to my dislikes)
Dislikes:
A. A lazy writer who writes the same book over and over, merely changing the names of the protagonists, and this includes the same, tired old description of the sex. Yes. Writing sex is hard when there are a limited number of positions and descriptions but dude, DON’T COPY THEM VERBATIM! (I’m lookin’ but not pointing fingers)
B. Pat endings - I enjoy a twist now and again
C. Stale or stereotypical characters who are perfect - give me some flaws for interest
As for writing, I try to write a book I’d want to read, tell the story I want to tell. If I wouldn’t want to read it, why would anyone else?
Lori said on 09.30.08 at 05:01 PM • [link]
Most of my serious dislikes have already been covered, but I’ll add one major pet peeve—-ridiculous dialogue. The third time I find myself asking, “Who talks like that?” the book hits the wall, no matter how good the plot or characters are otherwise. I won’t point any fingers, but there are some authors who need to spend a bit of time saying their dialogue out loud and then asking if it sounds like any human beings with whom they’ve ever had actual contact.
I also dislike characters, virtually always women, who are supposed to be “quirky” but are actually just insane or very stupid.
Jan said on 09.30.08 at 05:49 PM • [link]
Excellent discussion and a blog and comments to keep tacked next to the computer and reviewed often while writing! More, more!
JenTurner said on 09.30.08 at 06:05 PM • [link]
As a writer, and this may sound cheesy, I write whatever suits the characters. The heroine in my first novel ended up being a homeless drug addict who was far more jaded than the vampire hero she ended up with. That “concept” broke the traditionally accepted rules of vampires, but I ran with it.
I think as a writer and reader, a good character (whether you can sympathize with them or not) comes to life when you can invision running into someone like them. Even if they’re supernatural, if the person/creature has a believable personality and motives, that’s half the battle.
What I hate - female heriones who are doctors, lawyers, office workers, whatever, who have absolutely no flaws or are so damn morally respectable, I can’t understand them. Where are the heroines who aren’t nice? The ones who scream at the asshole in front of them who just cut them off? The ones who may have a tortured past, but find a way to deal with it and go on living life on their terms? The ones who are just as likely to walk by someone getting their ass kicked in an alley as they are to run in, pristine morals a-shining, and try to help.
That’s my beef. :)
Chris S. said on 09.30.08 at 06:19 PM • [link]
I love when writers recognize that humour is a seasoning, not the whole darn dish. No real person spends all her time cracking wise; characters shouldn’t either.
I truly dislike when characters don’t grow. No character should be the same in book 3 as she was in book 1. And if all she’s done is garner new enemies, she hasn’t grown. Only emo kids and the severely paranoid believe that the world is against them, and that no one understands their (exquisite) pain
Upthread, Ev praised Jim Butcher’s Dresden series: I’ll second that. He’s great at both the funny - Dresden can refrain from the zinger - and he makes allies as well as enemies. In romance, well, you can’t beat Jenny Crusie, or Laura London.
Oh Laura London, won’t you please write Cat’s book? Please, Sharon? Tom?
Leslie H said on 09.30.08 at 06:28 PM • [link]
Here is one of my sister’s dislikes that I hadn’t thought about until she mentioned it: Characters with no family whatsoever. Family brings realisim, stress and backstory; but for some reason writers LOVE to kill them off.
My own: DO NOT EVER Kill the household pets or characters I have invested emotion into. Grievous bodily harm, okay, but not a death as a cheap attmenpt to bring on emotional depth.
Esri Rose said on 09.30.08 at 06:45 PM • [link]
My favorite thing in the world is when I don’t know where the story is going, but the storyteller clearly knows what s/he is doing. It’s so rare. You’re pretty sure it’s going to end well, but you can’t imagine how they’re going to pull it off. Having said that, it’s AWFUL when they choke and don’t manage it.
Successful movie example: The Moguls aka The Amateurs (2005), with Jeff Bridges. I could never have predicted the ending, and it was GREAT.
Fail, fail, fail, movie example: Dan in Real Life (2007). He falls in love with his brother’s girlfriend! His family will never forgive him! And then they all just forgive him, with obligatory punch in the nose. (rolls eyes, mimes shooting self in head) Ugh.
Oh, and I’m a sucker for a funny ghost. Also dogs who turn out to be people in disguise.
Bad things: There are far too many to list. God, I’m picky.
JenB said on 09.30.08 at 06:56 PM • [link]
I want realism. I don’t mean that I want to read about bills and gyno appointments and all the nitty gritty details of everyday life, but I’m tired of romances that pretend real life doesn’t exist. Fantasy and escape are great, but denial gets on my nerves.
I’m also tired of bad endings. I can’t even tell you how many books I’ve read in which the first 2/3 is absolutely fantastic, but the ending feels like it was slapped on for the sake of the deadline and they all lived happily ever after. The end.
possible86 - I’m so bitchy it’s possible I could go on and do 86 more of these.
robinjn said on 09.30.08 at 07:42 PM • [link]
JenTurner, you might really enjoy Lori G. Armstrong’s Julie Collins series, which is wrapping up with the fourth book out tomorrow (le sigh, I will really miss Julie!)
Julie is so flawed that I was really put off by her at first. She smokes, she drinks, she makes bad choices. It’s more mystery/thriller than romance but it has romantic elements and the characters are so real they make your teeth hurt.
Lissa said on 09.30.08 at 07:50 PM • [link]
A perfect heroine will turn me off a book - regardless of the rest of the story. When she is so beautiful, but doesn’t know it, so talented, but so humble about her talent, when all children and dogs adore her and vice versa, when she has the very best friends who tell each other everything, when she has the perfect tiny body with perfect, perky boobs…....YUCK.
Give me a heroine who is a person. Pretty people know they are pretty - be aware of it, but don’t use it. Not all children and dogs are likeable either. I want a real character that I can relate too. That perfect paragon is not someone I would like in real life, or someone I want to read about.
I agree too - with the re-using of a storyline. I just finished a book by an author that I have adored for nearly 30 years. I don’t think I have ever been as disappointed in a book. The re-use of points in this story, kept pulling me out of it, so as to figure out which of her other books this plotline was from. The originals were much better.
Sheila said on 09.30.08 at 07:55 PM • [link]
Right now I’m critiquing twenty stories for my creative writing class in college. Lest this lead anyone to believe I am a cute nubile 19 year old, let me disillusion you.
I’m 37 years old and only 1 1/2 years into a degree plan that will take me at least 7 to complete part time. ;-p
.
As I was slogging through all these stories, a lot of times I was cringing at the dialogue, the ‘tell not show’ problems, the lack of setting, lack of plot, lack of conflict…lack of grammar. (That one is really painful for me.)
To take a break I got out my brand new book I’d bought as a treat. The shiny new Diana Palmer.
OH My God!
I wanted to start scribbling on the pages. “Show me, don’t tell me.” That is completely abnormal for me.
I think my Creative writing class may have ruined me for some of my sillier novels.
Love:
Books where everything has context of some sort.
Silly is not the defining characteristic of the hero/heroine.
Humor isn’t slapstick.
Real life intrudes on romance because hey, when doesn’t it?
Hate:
Solutions appearing out of nowhere.
Telling me stuff I should be able to infer.
Mysteries I can solve one chapter into the book.
Using 20th century slang in 18th century settings.
No reality whatsoever. As in this is so totally implausible I have to put the book away carefully so I don’t throw it. (Hubby is librarian and he frowns on mistreating even stupid books.)
Just my 2 cents worth…actually this is so long it might be worth a whole nickel
Suze said on 09.30.08 at 08:02 PM • [link]
Oh my freaking gods, yes! And interpreting for the idiot reader what you just wrote. Sharon Green wrote a fantasy double-series called The Blending, and for every sentence she wrote, she’d write another (immediately following) starting with “That means…” Gah!
What I like in a book (or any kind of art, really) is emotional authenticity. A character can behave however s/he wants to, but it has to feel true to the character.
So you can’t just say your heroine is spunky, brave, and quirky, you have to show her being that way. And if you don’t know how that kind of behaviour appears, then DON’T write a spunky, brave, and quirky heroine. If you don’t know what confident, alpha male behaviour looks like, don’t try to write that kind of hero. Argh. Do a little observation first.
This is actually a pretty good idea. I’ll have to devote some time to coming up with coherent lists.
Zisu said on 09.30.08 at 08:17 PM • [link]
Here is a really tiny pet peeve: I do not like when two important characters in a book have similar names. I guess once the names are established in my mind, I skim over them. So if their names are close (like Lord Randall and Lord Radcliffe or Michelle and Melissa), I have to work a little harder. Waah f*in’ waah, I know.
Another, bigger no-no for me is when a character (usually the heroine) has unfaltering loyalty toward some sibling/cousin/friend who treats her like absolute shiite, and all the conflict stems from the stupid acts she does on behalf of this asshat. Consistently bad judgment = major character flaw…period.
I love when the hero does something stupid (but not horrific) and then is truly remorseful and begs for forgiveness. Hmm….should I see a therapist for this? :-)
JenTurner said on 09.30.08 at 08:40 PM • [link]
Thanks for the suggestion, robinjn. I’ll have to give the series a look see. :)
Danielle (not that one, the other one) said on 09.30.08 at 08:42 PM • [link]
OT (mostly) but I have to ask SB Sarah about Power Play.
I’ce been jonesing for a GOOD hockey romance forever but all I’ve found so far were clearly written by non-fans—like the Harlequin author (who shall remain nameless) who thought a hockey game had four quarters. The players & the game scenes are completely unrealistic and/or boring.
So does Martin get the hockey, as well as the relationship, right?
isidri said on 09.30.08 at 08:56 PM • [link]
Love:
* Intricate and consistent worldbuilding. I love it when a historical or SF/Fantasy world feels so understandable and real, and love it even more when the book makes me wish I lived in that world.
* A protagnist with a moral code (even if I don’t agree with it), a goal, and some gumption. I was not a fan of the directionless, navel-gazing, whiney “hero” so popular in LitFic a while back.
* Witty and slightly absurd humor. I can’t write funny, and I awed by people who do it well.
Hate:
* Infodumping, especially the dreaded “as you know, Bob.” a.k.a. Soap Opera dialogue. “As you know, Bob, our brother Fred is still in a coma after being hit by a car that swerved to avoid a deer.”
* Big Misunderstandings. My hatred of these began in childhood, when I refused to watch The Flintstones because every plot revolved around a Big Mis that could have been avoided if people would just frigging TALK to one another, and it made me want to put my Big Wheel through our black-and-white TV.
* Victimized martyr progtagonists and ridiculoulsy evil puppy-kicking villains that give me the uncomfortable sense of watching a finger puppet play of the author’s own personal dramas with their exes or parents. Get some therapy, and then come back and rewrite this with believable characters.
Suze said on 09.30.08 at 09:24 PM • [link]
Rachel Gibson’s written a few books featuring hockey players that are quite good, especially See Jane Score.
I’m not a hockey fan, but I’ve been over-exposed to it all my life, and nothing in Gibson’s books jarred me as false or stupid.
Yes, I am Canadian, and don’t like hockey. The hearing to revoke my citizenship comes up next month.
rebyj said on 09.30.08 at 09:28 PM • [link]
Things I love:
1. World building that accents the story and doesn’t take up 3/4 of the book with boring and redundant details.
2. A story that shows there is a reason these two people find love with each other.
3. Humor
4. Interesting secondary characters that may lead to sequels.
5. Sequels!
Things I hate..
1. Heroines who know they’re in horrible danger but go for a walk at night anyway.
2. Blindness, infertility, and other physical disorders magically healed .. Yeah that’s realistic.
3. Overly graphic details of clothing. Seriously, I remember an old Barbara Cartland ( I think) where my mom and I laughed at a 3 page description of a dress. PUHLEEZE
4. Meaningful looks that I can’t figure out the meaning of.
5. 300 pages of exciting action, 2 page resolution .
Like everyone else, I could add lots more!
Leah said on 09.30.08 at 09:31 PM • [link]
Most of my loves/hates have already been covered, but here’s a couple….
Love:
Genuinely creepy ghost stories—I want to be forced to leave the light on!
Heroes/heroines with normal jobs and normal finances
Heroes/heroines with moral compasses. They might be tempted, but they overcome it (after a struggle)—or, they fall, but they make things right.
Chaotic family lives
Authors who can make profound observations in a simple fashion—Adele Parks has some examples of this—and Michael Connelly, in the crime genre.
Hate:
Too much explicit sex
Too much profanity
Unbelieveable amounts of drinking
Infidelity rewarded (not much of this out there, but still)
Kids who are either too good or too bad to be true
Family members in jeopardy. Seriously. If the back cover blurb mentions that the killer has the hero’s/heroine’s great-aunt Thelma in his sights, I will not buy the book
Children who have died or are dying. I won’t buy it. Lots of people don’t mind this. I really don’t like it.
Anachronistic speech and/or behavior.
I don’t want my heroines to be too stupid, or doormats, but why do they all have to be spunky?
Too much shopping. Or unbelieveable buying sprees.
I’ve read enough momlit that the organic la leche freak and the materialistic/achievement obsessed momzilla have started to become a little stereotypical—still fun, but getting a little old.
ev said on 09.30.08 at 10:08 PM • [link]
Um… Maybe after mine for the dislike of Baseball, and especially the Yankees, they will let us just switch countries??
Anj said on 09.30.08 at 10:28 PM • [link]
Not romance related, but this was one of my least favorite things about the Golden Compass series. I managed through the first two books, but by the end of the third book I was gritting my teeth and finishing it out of pure spite.
What I love:
- Good Sexual Tension. When the H/H are kept apart (by something believable, although not necessarily something major). But you get those glimpses into their desire for one another. Or just about any variation of the above.
- Heroines who aren’t whiny/TSTL. I know we’ve mentioned TSTL a lot, but I hate whiny. So life is treating you rotten? Deal. And you get my respect and your deserved Hero. I’m just discovering Heyer and it’s one of my favorite things about her heroines (so far).
- Good backup singers. When the supporting characters are just as interesting and fun as the main characters. When the supporting characters actually support the main characters. Think Crusie.
What I Hate:
- The payoff too early. I like the love slow-developing or drawn-out.
- Whiny Heroines/Heroes (as said above)
- Impractical villains
- Too much sex for sex’s sake (ditto the LKH finger pointing)
- When characters pull 180’s without consulting the reader or explaining their actions. Basically, act completely out of character.
Kerry D. said on 09.30.08 at 10:30 PM • [link]
YES! YES! YES! Especially #4. Nothing drives me crazier (or otherwise makes me feel more stuipd) that all these meaningful looks, pauses etc that mean nothing at all to me. Please, no more.
OH said on 09.30.08 at 10:31 PM • [link]
Ok, this is a genius idea.
I’ll add a major pet peeve to the hate list: Characters who never use contractions. Unless it fits the character- which it RARELY does- very few people speak without contractions. Pulls me out every time.
And another hate: When you have a character not use their powers and/or skills because of some stupid reason, thereby prolonging the book another hundred pages. Ex: If a character needs to die but they put it off in the hopes they won’t have to, and more people end up hurt than if they just did it in the first place…ARGH. The TSTL Moment is just as annoying as TSTL characters.
For the love list, I’ll add a tender moment between the H/H, especially if they are not usually tender people. Just that one moment in the story that I could reread forever.
Silver: I would have loved that story. I absolutely hate rape between H/H, so for the rapist to finally get it is gold in my book. Don’t really think it should be shelved in romance, but hell yeah.
Rosa said on 09.30.08 at 10:41 PM • [link]
After all these years of reading romance, I finally figured out last winter what makes (most of) the difference for me: I want the hero & heroine to like each other for something specific.
I really hate the “his maleness called out to her femaleness” theory of sexual attraction. That would make the heroine fall for every random alpha male that wandered by. And if he only likes her for her slender thighs and luxuriant hair, he’s going to dump her for a newer model in a few years. Not romantic.
But specifically loving someone’s sense of humor and their insights and seeing that their bad behavior is something you can stand and often flows from their good qualities is perfect.
It also prevents rewriting the same plot & characters into a regency, a medieval, and a cowboy book. Which people have already mentioned.
robinjn said on 09.30.08 at 10:53 PM • [link]
I just finished Heyer’s A Civil Contract. Counted by some as perhaps her “least romantic book,” the heroine is Jenny, the overplump mousy-haired daughter of a Cit. The hero, Adam, is desperately in love with another (a much more typical Heyer heroine) but must marry Jenny to save Fontley, his family estate.
The book takes place over a year and a half of marriage and includes Jenny having their first child. Heyer reveals Adam’s growing consideration and love for his wife in slow, subtle layers. The ending of the book is not truly a typical HEA. It’s better. I think this Heyer novel may rank as one of my favorites ever.
Suze said on 09.30.08 at 11:14 PM • [link]
Maybe we could both move to Australia. I’m totally sure I could get into surfing. As a spectator sport. That doesn’t involve below-freezing temperatures. And too many clothes on the athletes (totally ruins the view of the musculature).
Suze said on 09.30.08 at 11:20 PM • [link]
Rosa! I heart you! You’ve nailed it!
I used to really enjoy Susan Johnson, but over the last ten years or so, her couples ALWAYS have long histories of promiscuity, and hook up because they’re bored or horny, and SHAZAM! They’re in LURRRVE!
For no reason that they, or I can figure out, these former sluts are suddenly exclusive and jealous. Over and over again.
WTF?
And robinjn, I agree with you about A Civil Contract.
Deb Kinnard said on 09.30.08 at 11:43 PM • [link]
Love: layers. I’m like Shrek. Hand over the onion.
Hate: anachronistic speech/mores/behavior in a historical. Nothing will make me wallbang one of these faster. Recently read a Harlequin Historical that had ‘em calling it the “Black Death” when that term wasn’t used ‘til the 17th C. Sheesh! If I can find a historical detail, that makes it EASY to find! I’m not that smart!
Love: heroes who aren’t tall, dark and Anglo-Saxon, just once in awhile. Short, sexy and Italian gets my gonads goin’ just as well.
SonomaLass said on 09.30.08 at 11:56 PM • [link]
Wow, great discussion. I agree about consistent and interesting world-building, and TSTL heroines, and believable dialogue, and a buncha other stuff. But I have to agree with Suze and Rosa that a BIG pet peeve of mine is the “instant attraction for no real reason.” That always smacks of the superficial for me, and I don’t want superficial romance. I want deep and lasting.
I like imperfect characters—people with flaws, who make mistakes. I think that’s why I prefer older h/h, because they have had time to make those mistakes and be looking to fix them or to do better next time. I have a real weakness (personal biography) for stories where the h/h make mistakes and then get a second time around when they are more mature and self-aware. Sherry Thomas’ books do that very well, with the intertwined timeline.
I don’t like heroes who, after declaring their undying love, are unable to trust the love they get in return—she’s pregnant and it must be someone else’s, or we agreed not to but she must have done it on purpose. Or he hears something negative from someone else and believes it, rather than believing in her and how she feels about him. I probably don’t like it the other way around, with her not trusting, but lately it seems I’ve read books where the man has that particular problem—usually it’s a device to allow the couple to get together and have steamy sex in the middle of the book, but then have conflict that continues so that the real HEA is at the end.
To borrow a phrase from Hortense Powdermaker on another thread, I hate heroines who are TSTM—Too Stupid to Masturbate! She loathes his values, his attitude, his previous actions, whatever—but then he sexxes her up and nothing else matters. “He who can bring me to orgasm rules my heart, regardless of everything else” —honey, get a vibrator!
Anthea Lawson said on 10.01.08 at 12:08 AM • [link]
(madly scribbling down all this WEALTH of info. Must. Remember. For next book…)
You all put the SMART in Smart Bitches (ok, and the BITCH too, lol. Love the snark). Book lovers that care, that notice, that recognize what’s right AND wrong. Thank you!
merely61—no, not yet, but that’s a nice way to look at it. :)
willa said on 10.01.08 at 12:10 AM • [link]
Ohmigosh, YES YES YES!!! I remember the first time this popped out at me, in A Rose in Winter by Kathleen Woodiwiss. I remember scratching my head in bewilderment as I read the book, going, “Why on earth does the hero even like the heroine? Because she’s really, really beautiful? Pathetic! She has no personality!” And that’s really, honestly it. The hero loved the heroine because she was beautiful and she was forbidden. That’s it. Why? Why? Why?
Writing the same book over and over again but just changing the names bugs me, too.
Again, Ohmigosh, YES YES YES!!!!!
Things I love in a romance:
*strong personal style. When the book doesn’t read like a generic, Mad Libs sort of thing, but the writer’s use of words and storytelling is unique and recognizable. I don’t much like Judith Ivory’s books, but she’s got very strong personal style. I love that in a book.
* hero/heroine with a real personality. Again, not generic. These characters aren’t bland, blank slates, but have actual likes and dislikes, ways of speaking, ways of thinking. They don’t have to be astonishing originals, but they have to be individuals.
* Restrained desire. The hero and heroine don’t jump into bed together in the first chapter, but let the tension build and build and build…. yummy.
*non-generic backgrounds. I love it when the setting of the story is told vividly and interestingly, so that we see the characters not in a vague, watery street in Regency London, but in a street that’s vivid and atmospheric, with details. Not so much detail that it kills the narrative, but enough to evoke somethign, rather than just a blank backdrop.
I could go on….
robinjn said on 10.01.08 at 12:13 AM • [link]
In the vein of not liking it when the hero and heroine take one look at each other and instantly know that this is something they’ve never ever felt before (realistic much?) I also dislike the too-early sex scene, either with the hero/heroine or with one of them screwing someone else. I just really honestly don’t care for having a huge hot and heavy sex scene at the very start of the book before I even know the characters. The only possible exception would be the sex scene that really illustrates the character and informs the plot. But that’s vanishingly rare; the only one I can think of is that I didn’t mind Jason’s early sex scene in TrueBlood because it pretty much told us what we needed to know about his character but, importantly, it wasn’t a complimentary portrait. And it’s a TV show, not a book.
I love the slow, sensual buildup and think that sex is often far more exciting when not brutally explicit, or is explicit in a sensual way. I got far more excited over the single kiss Jean-Claude and Anita exchanged in Bloody Bones than anything in the later novels.
SonomaLass said on 10.01.08 at 12:39 AM • [link]
And to be fair to Charlaine Harris, robinjn, while Jason is having sex from the beginning in the Sookie Stackhouse books, it’s not a POV scene for the reader. The only sex scenes described in the books are Sookies, and they are timed pretty well, IMO.
I agree that early sex scenes often feel gratuitous—one reason I stay away from a lot of erotica is that sense of formula, where you have to have X number of sex scenes, one of which is usually earlier in the plot than I’m comfortable with.
Silver James said on 10.01.08 at 01:01 AM • [link]
OH - I may drag that old chestnut out and dust it off. I wrote it back during the hey-days of “Dallas”, complete with wealthy Alpha Hotel oil man with the requisite fancy downtown office and big ranch. Oh, yeah. Cliched to the max. But there might be something to that story afterall….hrmmmm….
RobinJn - I LOVE the Julie Collins series. I already have my copy of the last one. *sniff* I haven’t the heart to read it yet because I don’t want them to end. I even got the husband to read them.
JenTurner - Read these books!
And I third (or fourth) on Jim Butcher. The Dresden books are awesome!
hope101 said on 10.01.08 at 01:43 AM • [link]
Loves:
1. Ironic humour, where the dialogue may be witty as well, but there’s more a sense of “isn’t human nature funny” that we get to share with the author
2. H and H are best friends
3. Sense of larger community by book’s end
4. Hero who is emotionally vulnerable (Lord of Scoundrels)
5. Another vote for the plot I just can’t anticipate
6. Plots with backwards courtship
7. Sex scenes with humour
Hate:
1. Passive heroines
2. Power discrepancies, where the woman’s growth is more about acquiring the man with sexual experience/power/money, etc. than coming into her own
3. Also hate the “big misunderstanding” plots
ann said on 10.01.08 at 02:19 AM • [link]
One of the most annoying characters for me has to be the sweet lovable girl who could never hold down a job or who constantly screws up (majorly!). This is all too familiar in chick lit although Bridget Jones (the sequel) comes to mind immediately.
This brings me to another pet peeve: the series which drags on with no resolution in sight to major conflicts and issues, and little growth/development of main characters. I also hate literal interpretations of “everyone is out to get me.” I get irritated when the storyline becomes every other chracter hates/is trying to kill the major character. Its such a cliche in the “urban fantasy” genre, and terribly overused by Kim Harrison, Rachel Caine, etc.
Bronwyn Parry said on 10.01.08 at 02:34 AM • [link]
Seconding most of what others have said.
I particularly love:
- seeing respect, attraction and love grow between two people, so that i believe there’s enough between them to last for 60+ years (or eternity, of we’re talking about vampires…)
- ‘ordinary’ heroes and heroines - real-life characters facing life with humour and emotional depth
- historical characters who actually think like characters from their period/place in time
I find very frustrating:
- heroines who are supposed to be smart, successful spies heading up a covert agency with gazillions of resources at their disposal who can’t work out who the guy is and who he works for despite knowing about him for years, when it’s obvious to the reader from chapter 2, if not earlier. Duh.
(Yes, I know it is hard to write suspense and to get everything right. But I shok my head through a lot of that book.)
changes52: yes, it could have done with about that many edits
Kels said on 10.01.08 at 03:01 AM • [link]
A few personal hates:
1. Independence and spunk are not the same as stupidity. I’m thinking of all the westerns in which the gently reared Eastern lady inherits the ranch from her long lost father. She doesn’t know anything about ranching (or horses, the outdoors, guns, physical labor, etc). AND she’s the world’s worst judge of character. Her lawyers told her it was a bad idea to try to run the ranch. The townsfolk tell her it’s a bad idea. The hero tells her it’s the stupidest idea ever. But they’re just trying to keep the woman down. She’ll prove them wrong…or get the hero almost killed as he repeatedly has to pull her out of the deadly situations she gets herself into to prove to everyone that she can take care of herself just fine.
2. Heroines who are unattractive because their legs are too long and slim, their waists too small, their heaving bosoms too voluptuous. If your character is going to be gorgeous, let her be gorgeous. It’s much better than total denial of reality. But why not let her be normal looking? The hero doesn’t fall headfirst in lust with her. He gets to know her, slowly coming to realize that her eyes/smile/hair are the most stunning he’s ever seen.
3. The gratuitous baby ending. First comes love, then comes marriage, then comes the epilogue featuring the hero, heroine, and their dozen children frolicking at their country estate. OK, maybe not a dozen. But I’ve seen an even ten before.
And while Susan Johnson’s heroes and heroines are simply ridiculous, her use of endnotes makes my heart beat faster.
Leah said on 10.01.08 at 03:40 AM • [link]
Thought of some more “hates”
—The ghost story/romance in which the supernatural element starts out great but then just fizzles—Barbara Michaels does this to me ALL the time (yet I read and reread them).
—The gay (male) best friend, or neighbor, or co-worker who seems to exist only to provide the heroine (generally chick-lit) with a sounding board, wise advice, or humour, rather than being a full character in his own right. Ditto the elderly woman who was a regular spitfire in her youth, who can see herself in the heroine.
—I am with the poster who does not like the lack of contractions in dialogue. I, too, have not ever met anyone who speaks that way.
robinjn said on 10.01.08 at 03:42 AM • [link]
Oh I agree. I wasn’t very clear in my post. On the Trueblood thread a lot of people complained about Jason’s sex scene right up front and I defended it from the point of the TV series because I felt it was illustrative of Jason and of the tone of the series. But that’s certainly not how Harris did the book.
Exactly. And it’s not that I’m against explicit sex scenes, I love them when done well (Sherry Thomas, Lisa Klepas come to mind right off the bat). But please let me get to know these two people first. Sex right off the bat in a book is almost somehow like having sex with a stranger. If I’m not emotionally involved with the characters then yes, it’s really more clinical than involving. And offputting. I’m not sure why, but it is.
ev said on 10.01.08 at 04:01 AM • [link]
Works for me. Just need to get a passport.
JennyE. said on 10.01.08 at 04:51 AM • [link]
I hate endless internal monologues—nothing makes me put down a book faster. I don’t usually notice anachronisms, but I have to say I’m damn tired of historical characters getting killed off in carriage accidents. How I long for a case of erysipelas to carry someone off, just for a bit of variety!
Also can’t stand heroines in romantic suspense novels who insist on pretending their lives are bidnis as usual even though a rabid serial killer is stalking their every move. “There’s no way I’m going to let that pesky police escort interfere with my 5 a.m. jog at Remote Lake! I’ll just sneak out the back door.” There have been a couple of times when I found myself whispering, “Stab her, just frigging kill her already,” wishing I had a Choose Your Own Adventure version in which the killer has a chance at success…
And I’m not fond of constant mentions of the hero’s erection, especially when he’s turned on by something ridiculous like the sight of her licking a stamp. During a sex scene I get it, but do I have to know that he’s bursting through his pants in line at the post office? Ew.
Gail Dayton said on 10.01.08 at 05:15 AM • [link]
What are plots with backwards courtship? Not sure I understand those.
Otherwise, I agree with most of the things mentioned. If there is a good enough reason for the character (including a child) to die, other than merely to jerk around the reader’s emotions, then I can live with that. It’s not a deal-breaker. But I’d prefer it otherwise.
I recently read my copy of SILENT IN THE SANCTUARY, which I think was a Rita Winner (can’t remmber the author’s last name—first name is Deanna—and my copy is at home in Galveston. (House came through fine, going home this week, hopefully to stay. Still have to boil water, and no internet, but have electricity and working potties.)) The heroine in it is one of 10 children, and the author makes it work. Large families were the rule rather than the exception in the Victorian era. Babies happen. (sorta like other things that “happen.”) Especially in fertile families. So I don’t have a problem with babies in epilogues.
Unless, of course, it’s one of those miraculous healing situations. Healing does happen, especially if the author has set up the story with a condition that can spontaneously go away. But usually it doesn’t, and it bothers me that some authors think you can’t have a happy ending without a baby, or healing the blindness, or fixing all the family relationship problems. Even if life isn’t perfect, it can be happy.
hope101 said on 10.01.08 at 05:50 AM • [link]
Backwards courtship is sex/prenancy, then marriage, then love (like No One’s Baby but Mine).
Leah said on 10.01.08 at 05:51 AM • [link]
Hilarious!!!!!!!!!!
Moth said on 10.01.08 at 07:19 AM • [link]
How fun! I actually kind of went crazy and came up with a bunch so I posted the rest on my blog.
But here’s a few:
Likes:
Two people from wildly different backgrounds finding each other and falling in love, overcoming it all to stay together. (I actually find Disney’s Pocahontas really romantic, for example…)
Gladiators. But not Russell Crowe (although he is yummy) or any other kidnapped nobleman. No, no. I want me some Spartacus. Slaves who are stuck and have to fight their way up from the dirt, not men who started at the top and have toppled. The gladiator world was so fascinating I wish someone would actually explore that life instead of taking the nobleman shortcut.
Clever, dry-witted old reprobates with a twinkle in their eye and a wineflask up their sleeve. (Cadfael, Robinton, Llewellyn, how I love thee).
A good chase scene over a rickety rope bridge. Don’t ask me why but they are so fun.
Dislikes:
Big Misunderstandings in romance novels that could be resolved in a page if the parties involved would just TALK TO EACH OTHER but instead they spend the last half of the book, uncounted chapters, being apart and mad at each other because the author couldn’t come up with an actual conflict! (I’m lookin’ at you, Jude Deveraux!)
Slutty baddies (always women) going after the sweet young heroine for no apparent reason just to “get” the hero. Um…then shouldn’t you be going after the hero? Oh! And don’t compound the problem by even having the characters in the book recognize how ridiculous your plot point is! (*cough* Anne Stuart *cough*)
Teenagers in otherwise realistic books skirting around using the bad words. In fact, skirting around swear words in general with teen fiction. Most teens swear. A lot. I’m sorry to say this but most of them do not default to “Oh fudgesicle” when the parents aren’t around.
And that’s probably more than enough to be going on with, eh?
Great post!
Moth
lisa said on 10.01.08 at 07:42 AM • [link]
I love: EPIC smackdowns and righteous revenge. In fact, if there were a book called “Epic Smackdowns and Righteous Revenge,” I would buy it. I love seeing villains get p0wned. Not just regular revenge - deport them, try it again and I’ll get you, fall off a cliff, etc - I mean nefariously brilliant hoist-on-your-own-petard rub-their-face-in-it takedowns that have you cackling with glee and kicking your feet because OOOH, that sonofab*tch had it coming. No surprise that I liked Count of Monte Cristo. I also liked Eva Ibbotson’s Countess Below Stairs.
Also love: Neil Simon-style French farce, with doors slamming and people falling out of cupboards and everything coming to a chaotic and hilarious head. The end of Heyer’s Unknown Ajax comes to mind.
Aliciel said on 10.01.08 at 10:38 AM • [link]
I like your list SB Sarah! Especially #1.
When expertly handles, these are a joy to read. I am always dismayed when some authors write a “mysterious” character by pointing out how mysterious the character is. It’s like a giant blinking arrow-shaped neon light proclaiming “Look! This character doesn’t like to say much! None of the other characters know anything about her/him. She/He is MYSTERIOUS.” Oooh.
My pet peeve character is a Too-Much-Drama Guy. The type that’s all I’m-a-dangerous-guy-I-don’t-give-a-shit-about-what-you-think-I-
have-issues-you’d-never-understand-so-I-can-be-as-rude-as-I-want-
but-maybe-with-the-right-person-someday-I-can-change. I’m aware that this is a popular hero mold, but seriously it makes me ill to see their popularity. The psychology behind it alone has me gnashing my teeth in anger and frustration. But hey, to each her own, right?
jennifer echols said on 10.01.08 at 12:34 PM • [link]
I haven’t read Power Play, but Body Check was excellent and I’ll definitely be buying this new book now that Sarah has recommended it. I want to say that Deidre is (or was) a soap opera writer, so she should get the soap opera actress stuff right in Power Play. I live in Alabama so I can’t vouch for the verisimilitude of the hockey. She has like 5 of these hockey books so surely to God.
eaeaea said on 10.01.08 at 12:48 PM • [link]
Everyone has such great lists, hard to find more to add.
Except:
I HATE: -
* Marriage of convenience as a plot device in modern books.
* When authors set a book on a tropical island or cruise ship, just as an excuse to keep H/h bumping into each other and walking around near naked.
I LOVE: -
* Layers - the plot, the characters. You get my drift…
* The setting being part of the story. When an author has a real feel for the city/country that the book takes place, and it’s personality pulses through the book.
( best example ‘Shadow of the Wind’ in romantic, gothic Barcelona)
DS said on 10.01.08 at 03:59 PM • [link]
Heh, I always thought tropical island/cruise ship romances were just an excuse by the author to write a vacation off on their taxes as research.
JennyOH said on 10.01.08 at 04:09 PM • [link]
3. The gratuitous baby ending. First comes love, then comes marriage, then comes the epilogue featuring the hero, heroine, and their dozen children frolicking at their country estate. OK, maybe not a dozen. But I’ve seen an even ten before.
Kels, I totally agree. I don’t understand why these authors even bother; since most seem to end with a marriage, an epilogue is only interesting if it doesn’t end happily. Like if instead of “And they all frolicked on their country estate” it was “After only three months of wedded bliss, Lord Handsomepants was killed in a tragic carriage accident, leaving his wife to raise their child alone etc.” So you either get a twist ending or a setup for a sequel.
Larn said on 10.01.08 at 05:39 PM • [link]
Today’s xkcd is very appropriate to how I feel about books:
http://xkcd.com/483/
Shae said on 10.01.08 at 07:28 PM • [link]
I think the most important part of any book is the lulz. If I do not laugh in the course of reading the book, I have wasted my time. I don’t want to feel down and depressed when reading. I’m reading for enjoyment, and I want to laugh. What makes me laugh changes day to day, but today I got to giggle at the new Lynsay Sands book (I discovered how hilarious cockblocking leeches are). :D
I hate a lot of things in books - I hate when characters have incomes that do not match their careers at all, characters who never learn from their mistakes (when they keep making the same ones over and over), self-inserts, women who are described as “eccentric” who really aren’t (ooh, she’s a vegetarian, EDGY!), and the repeat in books (oh noes, naming names here - Cheryl Holt. My friend Heather shoved a bunch of books on me including hers and it was terrible. The have a very specific formula and there are many instances where entire paragraphs are exactly the same as they were in other books). I haven’t been able to pick up a historical romance since.
I also hate baby stuff. I like pregnancy plots (SEP’s Nobody’s Baby But Mine is one of my favorite books of all time), but absolutely despise “surprise, this is your kid!” plots.
Megan said on 10.01.08 at 07:44 PM • [link]
I absolutely LOVE “No Plot, No Problem”! And I’ve followed the list-making advice myself.
My list of “WANT” and “DO NOT WANT” in fiction is relatively simple. At least I think so. I despise rushed, unrealistic romances in which the characters are completely “swept away” by one another—with no real action to support this. We’re not shown any sexy glances or tiny moments of physical contact; we get no witty banter or deep conversation. We’re supposed to leave these people are just INTO each other—so into each other they’d run away together right now.
I’m just big on the “show, don’t tell” philosophy. Show me what type of person we have here—through their actions, through their choices, through their hurts and discoveries. Sprinkle in some winning, realistic conversation and leave out the strange, sudden changes in place and time and we have a winner!
DeeCee said on 10.01.08 at 08:43 PM • [link]
Like:
Decisive Hero and Heroine-no wishy washy crap over should we or should we not be together (I’m reminded of Der and Mer on Grey’s Anatomy)
Realistic speech-There doesn’t need to be a page and a half of dialogue. Especially when its all in one sentence increments and asking questions.
Comedy-especially one line zingers that don’t overpower the character, but just make you respect them more. Karen Marie Moning has a more subtle comedy in her books, even the Fever series that brighten the story for me.
A genuine mystery or problem-No manufacturing a “relationship”, but a real issue that needs to be resolved that isn’t one sided. That make me care about the issue.
Equal characters-I’m not a big fan of the alpha man. I like characters on equal footing that have an equal relationship.
I love heroes that are secure enough in their masculinity to poke fun at it. By doing “girl things” like loving to cook or clean, wanting to take care of his kids, and wanting to secure a loving marriage or relationship enough to sacrifice.
Real life decision making-no bs over which stiletto heel to wear. I’m talking stuff like his or hers house to live in? Jobs? Kids? If its frivolous, I’m probably gonna skip it because I don’t believe frivolousness is necessary for a convincing heroine.
Hate:
Problem with a relationship, then throw in another person to make the triangle complete.
Preachy characters or points.
Overbearing Alpha-ness to try to push the heroine-I’m reminded of every Lora Leigh book ever printed when the heroine says something to the effect of “Yes baby you’ll love it, and ____ is why.”
Using sex to fill pages-once again looking at Lora Leigh. I get it, its a romance, but does every book in the breed series have to have sex on every other page. How do these couples make it once the heat has worn down?
Spending 3 or more page describing the physical attributes/surroundings of the characters.
Wit-This is a double edged sword. If there is too much or not enough it ruins it for me. It has to be just right for me to enjoy. Sarcasm is only appreciated when it adds to the characters.
Company name dropping-Do I really give a shit if the hero is wearing Armani, or the heroine Dolce and Gabana….um no. I don’t care. Not about clothes, purses, shoes, jewelry, aftershave, lotion, soda, alcohol, electronics, styles or furniture. J. R. Ward, that means you. If I have to skip whole paragraphs of descriptions on which vodka is best, I can’t enjoy the book. I can do just as well if it was just left at vodka.
Nadia said on 10.01.08 at 09:49 PM • [link]
So many of mine have been covered, but here’s a few more for the hatin’:
1) Not fond of secret babies in general, but despise an easily resolved one. “Oh, well, she kept my kid from me for no real good reason for six years, but I luurves her and her magic cooter, so let’s get married with no resentment at all!”
2) And speaking of babies, I absolutely hate, despise, throw-to-the-wall loathe unrealistic post-partum stories. No weeks of bleeding! No leaking boobage! No sleep-deprivation so bad the Geneva Convention should outlaw it! Hormones so perfectly recovered that she is frothing to have sex by the six week check-up! Ha, in what alternate universe does any of that happen?
3) Inhuman sense of smell in an otherwise normal male. Vamps, weres, aliens having the super sniffers that smell the slightest hint of arousal across the room and beneath VS cotton and Levis? Sure, why not. Regular dude in non-para novel with same? Give me a break.
OH said on 10.01.08 at 10:24 PM • [link]
Silver: Let me know when it gets published and I’ll line up to read it :)
LMAO. I have that thought way too many times, though I find the problem even worse in movies. So add that to the hate list: If I’m suggesting (aka screaming at the TV/book) helpful tips to the killer, there is something wrong.
DeeCee: Oh, I am so with you. Frankly I hope Der and Mer fall off the Seattle space needle. Or on it from way above. I’m not picky. As long as their heads fall off so we don’t have to see Mer wander through her mind away from the friggin light again. I liked them in the beginning, but for the love of all that is holy just get over yourselves.
(Hmmm, too strong?)
MB said on 10.01.08 at 11:54 PM • [link]
These are some great lists! I agree, I agree!
Moth, re liking gladiators, do you read fantasy at all? I just read a really fun new book by Kage Baker titled The House of the Stag where the main character is a gladiator. It was a subversively humorous take on the typical male-oriented fantasy novel. I highly recommend it (and her other books as well)!
MB said on 10.01.08 at 11:57 PM • [link]
Oops, re previous comment, if y’all are wondering WHY I brought it up in this forum, “The House of the Stag” is definitely a Fantasy/Romance. HEA, epilogue, and everything. It is great!
orannia said on 10.02.08 at 01:52 AM • [link]
I had to de-lurk for this. The comments are hilarious :) My hates:
- Contractions. I ‘third’ whoever mentioned them. Just because some words can be contracted, doesn’t mean all of them can! There is one book (published earlier this year) that when I think of it I have to sit on my hands so that I don’t email the author and tell her to desist!
- TSTL heroines. I know it has been mentioned before, but I have just (today :) finished a contemporary romance and I am trying to work up the courage to email the author and ask why her main female character (a country doctor with 12 years experience who sees numerous pregnancies) has 2 days of unprotected sex! It is only at the end that she thinks ‘OOPS! I forgot to use the diaphragm!’. (FYI - I know full well that she falls pregnant in a later book.) What I can’t understand is…you’re a doctor…you see numerous teenage pregnancies - HOW CAN YOU FORGET CONTRACEPTION? And no mention is made of condoms….STDs? I need a wall so I can hit my head against it. And no mention of the male character mentioning it….he’s an undercover cop.
- The perfect heroine. Lissa - you put it all perfectly. I am so not perfect it isn’t funny. But it’s like, the more perfect the male, the more perfect the female needs to be. And, why, no matter what century a book is written in, beauty is measured by your size?
- Colouring. Is it just me, or do heroines always seem to have such dramatic colouring - black hair or blonde, and eyes of blue or green (or grey)....and if they mention brown is it described as cinnamon or whatever. Is there something wrong with brown?
orannia *who is very grateful to have been allowed to get that all out of her system*
PS And my word is hair49…..subtle :)
Moth said on 10.02.08 at 02:59 AM • [link]
MB, thanks for the rec. I do read SF and F and I read Terry Pratchett too, which I guess this book is similar to. Unfortunately my local library doesn’t have The House of the Stag. They had the first one in the series, though, so I put that on hold. :D
(Ha my word verification is “held21”...creepy).
MB said on 10.03.08 at 12:54 AM • [link]
Moth, I love Terry Pratchett as well. The House of the Stag’s humor is a little more subtle than TP—it sneaks up on you. I don’t remember The Anvil of the World very well, although I did read it some time ago. But if you like it do try Kage Baker’s Company series. It is to die for although it really only started getting enjoyable for me about 4 books in. I love the combination of SF, cyborgs, conspiracy theory, and bouncing around history! I will never again feel the same about chocolate, Hearst Castle, and neanderthals :-)
(Sorry for highjacking this thread people. I’ll stop now.)
Susan said on 10.11.08 at 07:29 AM • [link]
I agree with you in general/theory.
BUT….
I’m in the middle of trying to finish up a story set in what could be called the Pre-Regency period. In it, the heroine has, indeed, been subjected to not just the usual masculine authority, but brutality. Add to this the publication of Mary Wollstonecraft’s “Vindication of the Rights of Women”, & you have a heroine who has reason & opportunity to spout what could very well be called feminist ideas - and who gets to take all the flak she would get in those days for doing so (&, no, I don’t make the hero agree with her, either. “Better than his counterparts” is all anyone can hope for in the period setting).
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