Smart Bitches, Trashy Books

Uh. So, the woman did something wrong, unethical, and clearly illegal... and yet y’all are the “bad guys” for placing “undue stress” on “this poor woman”?

Sorry. Just because you’re elderly does not give you the right to break the law. It also doesn’t get you free ticket sympathy, either.

So not a classy thought but it did connect to today’s daily dinosaur comic for me - http://www.qwantz.com/

....because Edwards’ stealing had nothing to do with her problems? It’s everybody else’s fault for pointing out her illegal actions? Huh.

Also: is it too late to get a plane ticket and hotel room in Orlando? Sounds like it will be the place to be for the next RT convention.

led79…your captcha is *skerry*

I like how you got 15 minutes of fame by giving her a stroke. WAY TO GO!

But the reference to you on Cassie’s wikipedia entry will live on, and on. (and on)

And seriously, she broke a law, and her grandchildren probably still love her anyway, so leave off bringing kids into it for more sympathy points. Sheeesh. That’s like… like… faking a heart attack in a court room. And some of us know what that looked like, right? (I’d post a link but OMGWTFBBQ I don’t know how. Google it.)

Isn’t anything happening to Edwards? Or did it fade away into the distance like some romance version of Watergate? (Which, eew, no good images came from that reference.)

I agree with all the other comments! I do think part of the problem is how plagiarism is perceived in our society. People don’t see it as a crime and something bad because they don’t see writing as a commodity produced by a business (I dont’ mean that as disrespectful of the creative process). But if you look at it from a business stand point, the author is a company producing a product, the writing. Therefore when someone steals the product, it is wrong. Some people just see it as words and that they don’t count! I can’t stand it there are people out there that vilify the Smart Bitches and Dear Author for blowing the whistle when you should be applauded!

My grandmother suffered a massive stroke a few years ago.  And yet, she’d never written a romance novel or been accused of plagiarism!  I was so shocked to discover the link between plagiarism and strokes, because now I have to go out hunting the person who caused my nannan’s.

But wait…my dog also suffered a stroke.  And a heart attack.  The vet said one caused the other but now I know the truth.  She was the world’s first romance-plagiarising dog.

I think its ridiculous how its all a hush-hush affair. I mean, in school, if you plagiarize your ass gets kicked out. And thats the way it should be. As a student, its beaten into you that this is the foregone conclusion to that situation. It should be the same way in real life, no? You plagiarize, it goes on your permanent record (i.e. your reputation as a professional writer) and you pay for it. And, please, if you have to use other people’s work anyway, then you sure as hell aren’t a professional anything.

I think you guys are absolutely right to talk about this issue. Its important and is
happening in every genre.

word verification: those38…those 38 pages don’t count as plagiarism, right?

I will say this about fanfic: the majority of people in the fic community—at least, the majority of the ones with a modicum of maturity—abhor plagiarism, and are not above public shaming. And we have long memories.

For example, Cassandra Clare, who is now a published children’s author (and presumably an honest one), is STILL remembered in the Harry Potter communities for the plagiarism scandal she was at the center of—and that was in…2000? 2001? Something like that. Which, in fandom terms, is practically the early Mesozoic period.

Cassandra Clare, who is now a published children’s author (and presumably an honest one), is STILL remembered in the Harry Potter communities for the plagiarism scandal she was at the center of

And that’s had zero effect on her career, and is only of interest to fandom. Seriously. Bringing it up in pro circles will get you a huge yawn and a ‘so what?’

People will deal with stuff only when you rub their noses in it, and they’ll hate you, not the villain, because *you’re* the one making them feel uncomfortable. Which is strictly true, but not fair.

I remember when the Nora Roberts/Janet Dailey scandal went down and there were cries then about poor Janet Dailey, which I thought were complete and utter bullshit. It still burns my butt that Dailey is still being published.

In no way shape or form do I feel sorry for a plagarist. They are thieves who can’t seem to admit they were wrong and blame no one but themselves. Scum.

You know, stroke isn’t caused by stress, although it can be an exacerbating factor.  The most common causes are age, atherosclerosis, high blood pressure, diabetes, high cholesterol, hereditary issues with the blood vessels, blood clots—that kind of thing.  Smoking can up your chances, and it also doesn’t help if you are heavy.  I don’t mean to be unkind, but chances are, Ms. Edward would have suffered her stroke whether or not the plagiarism controversy arose.  And if anyone out there has one of the above health concerns, it might be wise to visit your dr to learn how you can avoid a stroke yourself, because they’re very common as we get *ahem* older, and it’s easy to miss the warning signs (numbness, visual disturbances—there are plenty of good lists of these on the web).

I’m sorry Ms. Edwards’ fans feel that they have to blame bloggers for her condition.  It’s ok to have affection for an author and still realize that s/he did something wrong.  They’d make better use of their energy if they focussed on stroke or heart disease prevention, not stuff like this.  I hope they rethink their actions at RT, and that security will be on hand to control things if they get out of hand.

Wow. Has it been a year? I first discovered SBTB because of the Edward’s brouhaha. My how time flies and all that. I’d planned on going to RT but since my book won’t have been released, I decided the time and expense was better saved for later. I wish now I could be there.

Plagiarism is stealing. How hard is that to understand? It is wrong ethically and legally. I’m sorry the woman had a stroke. According to the Mayo Clinic. risk factors for stroke don’t include being taken to task for plagiarism.

Someone mentioned above that if a student plagiarized, they’d be suspended or expelled. The same is true in academic writing. Ph.D candidates face a review board that picks apart their dissertation, including checking all references and looking for plagiarism. Considering how anal publishing companies are about books/ebooks being pirated, you’d think they would take a tougher stand. *shrugs* I’m betting a new author would have been dropped cold and left to the “wolves” but a venerable soul like Edwards? “But…but…SHE makes money for us.”

Well, I have never purchased Janet Dailey’s books since the scandal and I buy Nora Roberts’ all the time, so the scandal produced a good result for me. Primarily because Roberts’ work is so good and I was reading Daily for the quality (which was not her own) that I thought I saw (and I was a young pup, then).

I do care about plagiarism. I hope others do as well.

And that’s had zero effect on her career, and is only of interest to fandom. Seriously. Bringing it up in pro circles will get you a huge yawn and a ‘so what?’

Yes, very true. My point is, within the fic community at least, she’s done. Not that she cares, b/c it has had zero effect on her pro career (I mean, the handful of us who won’t buy her books hardly count as an effect).

I just meant to say that the “amateur” communities are actually much more invested in plagiarism than the pro communities. And that’s ... sad.

Ph.D candidates face a review board that picks apart their dissertation, including checking all references and looking for plagiarism.

Ha. Not at my university. I mean, I certainly didn’t plagiarize my dissertation, but I know for certain that my committee members didn’t have time to check the references—in fact, I bet most of them didn’t even look at my 20-page bibliography. And as for the review…the only review the university does is for formatting issues. That’s it.

And as for students being suspended or expelled? Again, I say HA. The best we can do for a first offense, no matter how egregious, is fail them on the assignment and recommend them to the judicial board. We can’t even fail them for the class. I can’t remember the last time I heard of a student being expelled for plagiarism at the university level.

The fact is almost no one takes plagiarism seriously.

the “amateur” communities are actually much more invested in plagiarism than the pro communities.

And yet how many in fandom had exactly the same reaction as Edwards’ fans did to her plagiarism? I remember reading post after post defending Clare and slamming those trying to expose her and other fandom frauds. The problem of creative theft remains a huge one for fandom, when the only prize is acclaim and attention.

Fandom does talk about serious issues, including plagiarism, at much greater length and breadth than I’ve seen in romance blogs - partly the passion of youth, partly the participation of so many students and academics. But that just does not translate to the wider world at all.

My Lord. What a steaming pile of crap. First of all, show me the medical journal that says strokes are caused by stress. Secondly—yeah, suffering the fallout from your own incredibly poor choices is stressful, bow howdy. I’m sure it’s even more unpleasant when it’s splashed all over the internet. Perhaps the way to avoid that is to not behave unethically, rather than to count ona culture of silence to protect you, and to sic your half-wit fans on anyone who doesn’t think you’re a victimized saint.

Oh, and having grandhcildren? Doesn’t make you a good person. It makes you a person who’s offspring have themselves reproduced.

I do think that part of the reason that plagiarism is such a tough topic is that in some instances it can be a rather grey area.  If the author changes some of the pieces of a stolen set of writing he or she could claim that it was not identical to the original if the situation were ever noticed.  Morally it seems pretty clear cut because stealing isn’t right, and you always need to do your own work.  But plagiarism is very hard to define in other instances.  In university, I remember avoiding critical literature as much as possible because I was worried about coming to similar conclusions and inadvertently writing about someone else’s idea.  It is possible to independently come up with similar ideas -  Coleridge was approached one day after a lecture by a fellow who told him that had he not known that he had the first editions of Schiller (I’d have to check on the specific German philosopher to be positive- this is off the top of my head) to arrive in England hot off the presses, he would’ve been convinced that Coleridge had copied his ideas.  And later on Coleridge did get in trouble for plagiarism in any case.  But sometimes it’s hard to tell the difference unless you can clearly see the intent.  I’m not defending plagiarism by any means, but I think it’s one of those things that people find very subjective, like trying to define pornography- on the extreme end of the spectrum it’s easy to recognize, but in less extreme cases, it’s harder to pinpoint.

It’s very sad that she became ill but I don’t think that should excuse anyone from doing wrong. And one thing has nothing to do with the other.

It’s unfortunate that after all the hullabaloo that it was just business as usual. That’s very disheartening. Whatever the genre is, it will never be taken seriously if we say “oh well, that’s just ****”. It’s still wrong.

I bet if people would have been plagiarizing Ms. Edwards, instead of the other way around, those “fans” would have been screaming bloody murder.  And now, a year later, it’s still al your fault that she had a stroke?  Come on.  Whose fault was it when she wrote book and book filled with other people’s words?  I assume that this is a basic tenet of growing up in the world: you don’t take something that doesn’t belong to you.  Simple.  Every day people read something, get an idea, write a novel about something they had to research.  Yet, they don’t plagiarize.  If Diana Gabaldon is writing her books from personal experience (I"m reading Outlander.  Yes, Again!) then more power to her, but I’m betting she isn’t.  Yet, she isn’t plagiarizing. 

I’m sorry that their reaction to a horrific event (Ms. Edwards’ stroke) is to come and shout you down at RT.  I wasn’t going to go this year, but this makes me sorely tempted.  I’m sure ya’ll can handle it, though.

Actually, Coleridge was a plagiarizer. Flat-out, no excuses. He plagiarized from *everyone*, I swear.

WHAAAT?

No, just no. You don’t get to do something highly immoral and unethical and then claim that the stress of being caught has ruined your health

If your health is vulnerable to high levels of stress then maybe you should refrain from high risk behaviour - like ripping off other people’s work and violating copyright.

And amen, people have to do something about this. Plagiarism is arrogant and fraudulent. The readers and the authors being ripped off both deserve better than that. And if someone is exposed as a plagiarist then it most certainly is NOT mean to spread the word far and wide and make sure it isn’t just brushed under the carpet and ignored

If it weren’t for people like Dear Author and the Smart Bitches willingness to stand up and speak out against plagiarism and plagiarists who would? The publishers? (not likely!) The rabid fanpoodles yapping round the plagiarist’s feet?

Plagiarism should not be tolerated, ever. But it will be tolerated and forgiven constantly - and it is tolerated and forgiven constantly - and we should, as a community, thank people like the Smart Bitches for taking the stand against this unnacceptable behaviour - even when the fanpoodles come yapping in at their ankles

Everyone is blaming you and your cronies for what happened.

Candy and Sarah, it was REALLY uncool of you to travel back in time and force Cassie Edwards to steal other authors’ work. You really ARE bitches.

With no vested interest in the works of Cassie Edwards, one of the things I got out of last year’s debacle was a list of new authors to read and one in particular to avoid like the plague, based on their reactions to this situation developing here.

Plagiarism is wrong, but a few things bothered me about this case.
How come all the blame goes Edwards’ way? The author is set up to take the blame in the contract, and that’s what happened, but -
the woman had been writing her books this way for years. If her editors didn’t notice, then they’re not doing a very good job of editing. They should have at least noticed the changes of style in the books, maybe even marked them as infodumps and asked her to revise.
If they did know she was copying, they should have told her and advised her that it was illegal. If they had noticed, they should have informed the publisher, since plagiarism is illegal. Either way, they should have taken some of the blame, and they didn’t, they walked away.
I think we should leave the woman alone. She isn’t writing any more, she’s lost all her contracts, and she needs some quiet. I don’t think that letter helps her any, and I don’t think anyone who knows her has ever blamed anyone for her stroke.
Yes, I knew about the stroke shortly afterwards, but, like many other authors, I decided not to mention it anywhere publicly because the stroke effectively signalled the end of her writing career, and she needed some basic human compassion. And some peace and quiet.
Maybe a bit of the quality of mercy.
And there was a lot of schadenfreude involved here. People gloating over her downfall, and frankly, that sickened me. I’m not blaming the Bitches, or the Janes, who brought the matter forward, but some of the commenters were so vicious I didn’t want anything to do with that kind of nastiness.
It’s in the nature of a case study, just as the Dailey/Roberts case is, but it’s over, done. I still think it’s wrong, but since I don’t know the details, who condoned it, who knew about it, what Edwards herself thought, it’s probably better not to hound her to the grave now.
Maybe it might be more helpful to try to trace how it happened, how it went on so long without being noticed by industry professionals, and how to stop it happening again.

Chiming in to say “boo plagiarism,” which is really the most we can do.  Speak up.

I don’t buy plagiarists, and I don’t buy authors known to have taken a permissive stance when their buddies/acquaintances are caught, and even more than that I spread the news to reading aquaintances.  I attended the RWA plagiarism panel and I intend to continue attending such events whenever I’m able to make it to conferences.

Speak up. Put the truth out there.  Explain (repeatedly if necessary) why it’s wrong.  The ripple effect will eventually take effect.

The fact that you’re still receiving hate mail is both unsurprising and disturbing.  I hate to be a worry wart, but - stay safe at RT, mmkay?  Use the buddy system, etc.

plagiarism is illegal

No, it’s not. Plagiarism is *immoral.* Theft of copyright material might be illegal in some jurisdictions, but plagiarism is not.

They should have at least noticed the changes of style in the books, maybe even marked them as infodumps and asked her to revise.

Being a crappy editor is not the same as being a thief. It’s really not.

It’s over, done.

No, it’s not over. For one, so far as she’s concerned, her books are still being issued by a publisher, and the people whose intellectual property she stole, are still not being compensated.

For another, the wider issue of plagiarism is being treated with the same inappropriate sympathy as you’re showing here. No one wants to hound anyone into an early grave. No one showed the slightest desire to, or did so. But full consequences of community disgust? Hell yes.

The people who are still getting it in the neck are those who exposed it, while Edwards is being cooed over as the poor old woman. Other plagiarists are being supported and protected by their fans, their victims suffering villification and their reputations shredded. If you can’t see how very wrong that is, then it demonstrates just how profound the problem is and how far the industry has to go before it can say the problem is dealt with.

I think we should leave the woman alone. She isn’t writing any more, she’s lost all her contracts, and she needs some quiet.

She may need some quiet but she’s not getting it from her publisher or maybe someone ‘borrowed’ her name and wrote the following and she/they are donating profits to the furry creatures?

  Savage Flames   Feb-2008
  Savage Abandon   Sep-2008
  Her Forbidden Pirate   Jan-2009
  Savage Sun   Apr-2009

Lynne, I didn’t want to bring this up, but something you mentioned about the editors not noticing, hence they are, too, at fault got my whatever-the-hell-it-is up.

“If her editors didn’t notice, then they’re not doing a very good job of editing. They should have at least noticed the changes of style in the books, maybe even marked them as infodumps and asked her to revise.
If they did know she was copying, they should have told her and advised her that it was illegal. If they had noticed, they should have informed the publisher, since plagiarism is illegal. Either way, they should have taken some of the blame, and they didn’t, they walked away. “

Really? Seriously? I was not aware that editors had to read other writers to make sure their writers are not plagiarizing those other writers. Gosh. Imagine all those extra books editors have to read.

Kind of makes you feel sorry for them, eh?

Lynne, she has hardly lost all her contracts. I’d highly suggest you check your facts there.

I don’t think that her editors are necessarily to blame, because while the passages she stole were most certainly infodumps and should have been edited—her career began at a time where such was normal in most fiction. By the point that it became considered “bad writing”, she was already making her publishers good money. They don’t fuck with that.

It’s not over. It’s still going on. And for all the Internet activism about the situation, there’s still plenty of people that think we’re making something out of nothing and that we should just “leave the poor old woman alone.” Sorry, no, not when she still has yet to admit she’s done anything wrong.

Exactly, Fionn. It’s ludicrous to expect an editor to have read every bit of fiction and non-fiction out there and thus automatically be a plagiarism-catching machine. It’s not possible.

Combine that with the fact that the style she was plagiarizing was normal for the time period in which she first started her career—yeah. I’m not surprised it took this long for her to get caught.

Don’t blame the editor. Blame the person who did it in the first place and should have known it was wrong. And if she truly didn’t, she should have tried to make some sort of apology and reparation.

The people who are still getting it in the neck are those who exposed it, while Edwards is being cooed over as the poor old woman. Other plagiarists are being supported and protected by their fans, their victims suffering villification and their reputations shredded. If you can’t see how very wrong that is, then it demonstrates just how profound the problem is and how far the industry has to go before it can say the problem is dealt with.

As I said at the start and the finish of my post, I think plagiarism is wrong and should be prosecuted, so yes, I see how wrong it is. In the UK, it’s certainly illegal, and someone can be sued for breach of copyright. I’m not sure how that works in the US.

And, FWIW, I don’t buy books by known plagiarists either. Edwards used to be one of my comfort reads, but I haven’t bought any of her books since the scandal broke. As a reader, it’s the best way I can show my displeasure, and boycotting campaigns do work.

I just can’t see the point of lynching Edwards. She’s not going to be writing any more books, she’s not part of the writing community any more. Maybe her publishers should stop reissuing the books, too.

What I would like to see is a study of where it went wrong, and how it was allowed to continue for so long. Who did it, why it went unnoticed, if it did, that kind of thing. That might lead to a positive result, maybe guidelines being set up, definite rules put in place. I don’t see how persecuting the Bitches and Janes, or on the other hand, persecuting Edwards, will help. If something positive can come of this, then fine, and I’ll certainly support that in any way possible, because of course plagiarism is wrong.

And as for students being suspended or expelled? Again, I say HA. The best we can do for a first offense, no matter how egregious, is fail them on the assignment and recommend them to the judicial board. We can’t even fail them for the class. I can’t remember the last time I heard of a student being expelled for plagiarism at the university level.

When I was doing grad work in history at Ball State Univ. in IN, during the early 90’s, another grad assistant was expelled from the program for what his advisors called “plagiarizing himself.”  He used the same paper—or essentially the same paper in 2 different classes.  I can only imagine what they would have done had he ripped off Frederick Jackson Turner .  Granted, they might have been more lenient with a freshman.  I know that when I did research, I pretty much wrote my notes as verbatim quotes, complete with citations, out of the fear I would accidentally plagizarize someone.  For us, that was defined as “three significant words in a row.”

I just remembered something.
In the UK, several years ago, The Verve had a huge hit with a track called Bittersweet Symphony. I don’t know how it did in the US, but in the UK and Europe it became a massive hit. Lots of dosh.
But The Verve and its songwriter, Richard Ashcroft, sampled (plagiarised) a Rolling Stones track, without permission. The video also played a “homage” to Massive Attack’s “Unfinished Sympathy.”
The Stones took The Verve to court, and won. All the profits from the track, all the royalties, went and continue to go, to the Stones. (Actually, because of a bad contract, the money goes to Allen Klein, which tells you the lawyers always win in the end).
Maybe a principle like this should work in the book business? If, instead of a sum of compensation, the royalties and earnings, present and past, went to the person plagiarised, that would help to put people off and make sure the offending party was properly compensated.

I still see Edwards’ books for sale at the supermarket. Why are her books not being pulled from the shelves? Also, it’s highly doubtful she’s giving her royalties back for her thievery. I’m surprised there haven’t been more lawsuits by the people whose work got stolen.

What happened to accountability? Why is it everbody else’s fault but Edwards’ that she stole bits of other people’s work? Nobody made her do it. As for why she was able to write some 100 books before anyone figured it out…no idea.

Academic plagiarising - this can be done in retrospect, too, ie if a student’s dissertation or thesis have been plagiarised, they can lose a degree they’ve previously been awarded (again, in the UK, don’t know how it works in the US).

I’m a member of an email list with that intent. Professors and lecturers will put up chunks of essays they have doubts about, and ask if anyone has seen it before. That’s why it’s an extremely private list. Sometimes the style alerts the lecturer, sometimes just a vague remembrance that they’ve seen it before. It does mean that when a professional plagiariser is discovered (people sell dissertations, sometimes more than once) they can be put out of action faster.

Plagiarism is wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, dammit.  Why is this such a difficult concept for people to grasp?  Because it’ll take away a favorite writer?  Tough patootie.  You should find out who they plagiarized from—you might enjoy the original work even more.

Honest writers bust ass to create a story.  Just because it’s an assemblage of words that we employ for everyday use doesn’t mean that writing and crafting a good story is easy.  It’s not. 

And I so sick and tired of the plagiarists taking the “I didn’t realize I did it,” defense.  I don’t care.  On some level, they did.  Otherwise they wouldn’t go to such effort to come up with utter bullshit excuses.

It’s interesting though—the one case in recent history I can think of where the plagiarist actually did not get the benefit of public sympathy is Kaavya Viswanathan (How Opal Mehta Got Kissed, Got Wild and Got a Life).  She was a Harvard-bound seventeen year-old who’d received a six-figure deal and was receiving an enormous amount of publisher support (tour, television, etc.) and when it came to light that it appeared she’d plagiarized, rather than jump on the whistle-blowers, the court of public opinion absolutely nailed Viswanathan.

So where’s the difference between Edwards and this girl?  Is it because it’s romance versus YA and in romance we’re supposed to be “nice girls?”  Is it because it was an older, grandmotherly type from a different era versus a young, vibrant entitled, Harvard-bound girl who really, should’ve known better? 

Where do we draw the line in the sand with respect to excuses?  In this case, there is no line.  Viswanathan’s excuses rang remarkably similar to Edwards’ (And Neale Donald Walsch’s for that matter)— didn’t realize she was doing it, it must have stuck with her, so sorry, she really didn’t mean to, blah, blah, blah. 

No line.  Doesn’t matter if it’s a grandmother or a Harvard freshman or a guy who says he talks to God.  You can’t borrow other people’s material and claim it as your own.  Period.  It’s wrong and it infuriates me that to this day there are people who claim that it was Edwards who was wronged because what she did was exposed.

Wow.  Can you tell this is a hot button for me?

Some universities do take it seriously.  When I worked at my alma mater as an academic, we had a scandal where a former student was writing assignments for cash.  It was discovered as plagiarism since he had no difficulty with selling the same assignment to more than one customer.  Several people were charged with fraud and excluded from the university.  We also discovered the university had the power to revoke granted degrees.  (Nice one!)  Since then the university has spent lots of time and effort to educate students about what plagiarism is and why it’s wrong.  Every new student in my school now has to take a short but compulsory non-credit course on plagiarism and proper referencing.  The university has also moved to set assignments that are harder to plagiarize and install and use plagiarism detection systems.  I am proud that my alma mater invested in this.

How dare you bring to light the unethical practices that some authors will go through to get published. *GASP*

I am still trying to figure out what you have done wrong and why you are to blame about the whole Edwards thing, because you have facts to back up everything. I hope there are more panels about plagiarism. It is a topic that still needs to be discussed.

You have caused a lot of innocent people much heartache by your actions.

The ferrets still love you.  As do those of us who still have a few brain cells rubbing together.

this can be done in retrospect, too, ie if a student’s dissertation or thesis have been plagiarised, they can lose a degree they’ve previously been awarded (again, in the UK, don’t know how it works in the US).

Yeah, that happens here, too. It happened here at my school right before I started my graduate work, and the university *pretends* to be really hard on plagiarism as a result. I think they are (justly) harder on graduate students—I was thinking of undergrads, who pretty much get away with murder when it comes to plagiarism.

What I’ve found, though, is that we give a lot of lip service to anti-plagiarism policies, but they don’t really have teeth. I’ve failed plagiarists (including one self-plagiarist) on their assignments, but I doubt I’d be able to fail them for the class, unless they did it twice. And I’ve never caught one twice.

And as for students being suspended or expelled? Again, I say HA. The best we can do for a first offense, no matter how egregious, is fail them on the assignment and recommend them to the judicial board. We can’t even fail them for the class. I can’t remember the last time I heard of a student being expelled for plagiarism at the university level.

I’m a current uni student who went through a fiasco last year where I was wrongfully accused of plagiarism on a lab report. The consequences of being found guilty would have ranged from expulsion from course to expulsion from university (and the policy of my province is that if you’ve been expelled from a uni, you cannot apply to any other uni in the province). Although I was acquitted (there was a scary hearing), my lab partner was found guilty and expelled from the school.

The “plagiarism is evil and you are despicable for doing it” mantra has been drilled into me throughout my school career (I remember teachers handing out F’s on assignments in grade 7 because they were plagiarized). I don’t know how anyone can disregard something that they’ve been taught for so long and then go on to plagiarize in the professional community.

So if my three year old child hits the cat, and I punish her for hitting the cat, then the cat-hitting incident is MY FAULT. That’s esseintially what the nitwit at the start of your article is implying. Yeah. Okay. That makes sense.

As a writer, I take a pretty hard-line stance on plagiarism. Which is to say, kick their ass out. Out of school, out of the publishing industry, out of wherever. They’re liars and thieves. Give ‘em the boot.

That said, in many types of writing, there are very informal ways to give credit where it is due. Many people, from articles to novels, will put a “books I used to write this” or “sources I found helpful” section in somewhere, usually at the end, and for the vast majority of publications I think that is entirely acceptable. But if you’re using a direct quote, you better be putting quotes around it and a footnote at the end.

As usual, the response from the publishing industry is disgusting yet predictable. They don’t give a hoot about ethics, they care about money. They will continue to publish Cassie Edwards novels (even though any of them with proven plagiarism should be pulled), and make the right noises, all the while secretely delighted by the scandal because it will sell more books.

Sympathies to you guys for bearing the brunt of the negative crap; dealing with three-year-olds is a rough gig.

Just an observation, as I’ve been an interested lurker, but having no emotional investment: I was Googling Cassie Edwards and clicked on a site confirming the above mentioned publication of two of her books this year: “Savage Sun” and “Her Forbidden Pirate”. I don’t know when she WROTE these (Pre-Stroke or Post-Stroke) but it seems she had little difficulty signing on with Leisure Books, aka Dorchester Publishing (which Wikipedia claims has the Top Spot in publishing the Horror Genre…). So the Poor Old Lady shall be continuing her income from her Faithful Fanbase, with little break in her stride. I assume that Dorchester is aware of the scandal of a year ago. I’m wondering if they will edit her work with that in mind, wanting to avoid further allegations of plagiarism, or if it’ll just be Business as Usual. I also wonder, did they agree to buy up and re-print all the Works In Question, or just the two or three latest Savages…

One of the reason why I read SB (besides the fact that y’all are hella hilarious) is because of your roles and attitudes towards plagiarism.  As a former academic, a current lawyer, and a future published writer (hopefully), I get incredibly angry when I see a plagiarist get public sympathy while the person who actually did the work gets nothing and the people who bring it to our attention get accused of meaness or causing harm to the plagiarist.

I was plagiarized once, a long time ago, and let me tell you, if I could have held a cage match and beat that girl down, I would have.  Steal my ideas if you want to—if you think you can write a better book than me with those ideas, you’re welcome to try.  But steal my words at your peril. 

HA!  My verification word—period54.  Are you asking me if I’m PMSing, verification word?  :)

To the left of the topic…all those people who were complaining about Barb Sheridan’s Beautiful C*cksucker…where’s the outrage over calling Indians “Savages”? It’s stereotypical and perpetuates a negative image of a people who are most decidedly NOT acting savagely. I grew up near a reservation and have yet to see any of the natives prancing about in a loincloth..much to my dismay.

You know, I’m almost ashamed to share the planet with the person who wrote that letter.

Supporting plagiarists is the moral equivalent of supporting car thieves.

Barb, there’s possibly another twist in the Viswanathan affair – I suspect she had very little to do with writing the book in question.  As I recall, the person who got her in contact with the publisher said that the book Viswanathan showed her initially was a dark, “serious” story and the idea for Opal Metha came from trading emails with Viswanathan and deciding that her somewhat bubbly tone was better suited for a novel.

And then it turned out that they basically based Opal on the author herself – Indian-American whose parents hire an admissions coach to get her into an Ivy League school.  The person who started the ball rolling on the book was, in fact, Viswanathan’s admissions coach.

I’ve suspected since shortly after the story broke that Viswanathan probably didn’t have much to do with the writing of the book that was published.  I imagine it was probably written by a committee, as the co-holder of the copyright for Opal Metha was held by a book-packaging company.  Viswanathan probably found herself in a sticky situation – admit, as a Harvard student, that she plagiarized, or admit that she had little to do with writing a book for which she was paid several hundred thousand dollars.

The difference between the reaction to Viswanathan and other outed plagiarists is two-fold, I think.  The initial and most thorough reporting done on the issue was done by a Harvard school paper.  They were publishing new reports of plagiarized passages often.  The other thing that played against Viswanathan is that they seemed to be marketing Viswanathan herself as much as her book.  There’s not much in the YA category written about, for, or by Indian-American readers, and that’s got to be a market with huge potential.  Cassie Edwards, for all her readers, was not getting a book-signing tour or a movie deal like Viswanathan was.

Plagiarism should not be tolerated anywhere by anyone, and that includes romance, spiritual writing, literary fiction, academic publication, and fanfic.

Well said.

I sympathize Ms. Edwards’ health, and regardless of the plagiarism, I wouldn’t wish any ill on her-there’s no need.  Doing wrong will always catch up with a person.

However, regardless of whether or not stress from work induced the stroke (and sorry, that can’t be proven-too many things play into a stroke, and stress is only part of it), nobody made her plagiarize.

She made the choice and if she suffered consequences after, then she has to deal with them.

And it just now occurs to me, I didn’t address the main issue…yes, publishers/editors/writers/readers all of us need to step up and say plagiarism is wrong, make it clear it isn’t acceptable.

We all work hard.  It doesn’t matter if we’re writing recipe books, material for greeting cards, blogs about whether or not the state of the world will ever improve, fiction, nonfiction, published, unpublished, nobody has the right to take somebody else’s hard work and pass it off as their own.  Nobody.

As a reader I definitely care about plagarism. I first heard of Janet Dailey’s plagarism here and as a result I won’t be buying any of her books. Same goes for Cassie Edwards. Thanks for spreading the word. It’s never okay to plagarize and I for one don’t want you to shut up about it.

It is not an unknown thing for a woman in her 70s to have a stroke.

I’m sure Ms. Edwards was under a great deal of stress, and she and her family have my sympathy.

But she repeatedly made one foolish choice after another over the years by plagiarizing countless times and was finally caught.

Some people can say “It’s a fair cop,” admit they blew it, and move on.

Others continue to live with wet feet while looking at pyramids.

Plagiarism is theft; no one likes a thief. Even her publisher figured that out.

She helped changed the industry though:

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/
showthread.php?p=2600411#post2600411

I had that rider on MY last book contract. My agent tells me it is becoming standard practice. Publishers are covering their a$$es in regard to careless or terminally stupid word thieves and liars.

So in a very twisted way we can thank CE for making some progress in protecting the property of others. Steal from another writer, pay a whacking huge fine in addition to public humiliation and a flushed career.

Her publisher only canceled her contracts; she got off lightly. She is still getting royalties from books still in print.

I’m sorry she’s sick, but don’t blame the SBs. If not them, then someone else would have played Woodward and Bernstein to the scandal.

Cheap shot time. Sorry, I can’t resist:

So, has Kaavya Viswanathen had HER stroke yet?

I think the difference between Viswanathan and the Edwards case is that Edwards has a long time fan base and consequently those people defend her actions no matter what the facts are. 

She’s a nice old woman so leave her alone.

I’m a nice old woman but if I rob someone’s house the police are not going to leave me alone.

Edwards never admitted her guilt and that’s a big a problem. Talk about denial. All the legal advice in the world couldn’t stop a moral person from stepping up to the plate and admitting they had stolen and were sorry. Leaving the victim and the whistleblowers out to dry and to take the heat is just as wrong.

AND STILL people are asking others to stop talking about it.  Act as though it was an unfortunate non-event and just let it go. Be nice, take the higher road, blah, blah, blah. 

People want to be ‘nice’ until it’s their work that is stolen.

where’s the outrage over calling Indians “Savages”? It’s stereotypical and perpetuates a negative image of a people who are most decidedly NOT acting savagely.

Thank you, Emmy. As a Chickasaw/Cherokee married to a Muskogee Creek (three of the five CIVILIZED tribes - but don’t get me started on that either, because I don’t consider any of the other tribes to be UNcivilized), I find Edward’s work offensive. What surprises me, though, is the fact that no tribal activists have called her or her publishers to task. With all the chest-thumping about sports mascots, you’d think this would be a hot button for them.

Sorry. Off topic. But my stand on plagiarism has been stated before and often. No! Just HELL no!

I have never been a Cassie Edwards fan. Not since a leading lady in one of her historicals said that her dad “would have a cow” if he found out that she was carrying on with an Indian. That said, I feel so sorry for her. She made a mistake but being named and shamed to this extent is a disgrace. I don’t enjoy bullying (even cyber bullying) and that is what this has turned into.
I respect that she is a published author, something most people can only aspire to. So I say lets give the old girl a break.

I usually lurk and laugh…as Jay Montville above said, you guys are hilarious.  But I have learned something today….

Smart Bitches cause strokes.
Stealing is good.
And most people are stupid.

Wow! Quite a lot for one day, don’t you think?

My daughter is a grad assistant at Kansas State Univ.  She teaches Beginning Public Speaking while she is getting her masters degree.  One day during her first month of teaching she was sitting in her office reading the written copy of her students’ speeches after listening to the tapes.  Her office mate was listening to her class’ tapes at the same time.  As my daughter is reading her hard copy, it is almost as if she were following along with her office mates tape.  It was almost word for word the same speech from two different students.  Coincidence?  The girls took it to their course director.  At this point it was out of their hands but their course director kept them informed as to what happened.  It seems these two students were roommates and decided to write a speech about an event they attended together.  The decided to write one speech…because who would know?  After the investigation & conferences ended, it was decided that because both kids were freshmen they would not be expelled.  They received a zero for that assignment (which was a big hit on their grade for the entire course, they practically had to get A’s the rest of the semester), sit through an ethics seminar on plagerism & stealing (specifically designed for this sort of thing because as we know freshmen and athletes are stupid; my daughter said they had 50 people in each of 4 seminars-90% freshmen & athletes), and the incident was put in their files in case of a repeat occurance.  I think the decision was fair.  Everyone deserves a second chance.  One of the students was very upset & realized that it was wrong, yadayadayada.  The other threatened to hire a lawyer & sue because he did nothing wrong.  Which student actually wrote the speech?  The one who realized it was wrong.

I’ve suspected since shortly after the story broke that Viswanathan probably didn’t have much to do with the writing of the book that was published.  I imagine it was probably written by a committee, as the co-holder of the copyright for Opal Metha was held by a book-packaging company.  Viswanathan probably found herself in a sticky situation – admit, as a Harvard student, that she plagiarized, or admit that she had little to do with writing a book for which she was paid several hundred thousand dollars.

Raj, of course you’re right in pointing out the differences here.  Alloy (same company behind Gossip Girl and its ilk as well as Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants) has a history, as a book packager of having in house writers or writers for hire; they buy a story concept and farm it out.  So from that standpoint, I think this is one of those cases where we’ll never know for sure, exactly what happened or who exactly was responsible, however, you have to admit, Kaavya was not given any leeway (and rightly so).  Whether it was her or some behind-the scenes ghostwriter, it was her name on the book and she was made to step up and admit responsibility. 

The initial and most thorough reporting done on the issue was done by a Harvard school paper.  They were publishing new reports of plagiarized passages often.

Yet the Harvard Crimson gets kudos for breaking the story and the Smart Bitches get condemnation for doing the same.  Y’all should become affiliated with an Ivy League University, yo.

I’m not in publishing.  I don’t get to see the new riders and what authors and publishers are doing behind the scenes to stop this from happening again.  All the general public sees is that Edwards’ books are still available at the grocery store, on Amazon, and at bookstores like Borders.  Any other defective product gets pulled off store shelves.  So there must not be anything too terribly wrong with plagiarism, right? 

Whether or not they knew about the plagiarism before the story broke, the publishers had a responsibility to pull these books once the situation became clear.  It makes me sick that a year later the books are still for sale, and the “author” and publisher are still profiting from the theft.  No wonder so many people think it’s no big deal.

I think the subject should not be left alone. Each of these Authors who have plagerized , Daily, Edwards, Viswanathan, Walsh need to held up as an example of what NOT to do. Everytime plagerisim is tolerated or swept under the carpet or shouted down with screeches of “you’re just being mean!” I belittles us as readers. It makes us look stupid. So no, I don’t think Cassie Edwards should be left in peace. Nor Janet Daily, nor any one else who is outed as a thief. The story of what they did should be told again and again. And maybe plagerisim will happen less and less.

People who do wrong will always find an excuse for why they’re not responsible and why someone else made them do it, and the people who like that person will always find a reason to back them up.  That whole gang mentality of of pummeling someone trying to stand up and be the voice of “right” into silence has always been a stumper for me, but its a trend in just about anything.  If someone is rich enough, popular enough, “celebrity” enough, they’re allowed to get away with just about anything and anyone who dares to challenge that gets shamed and torn apart.  Romance, literary, fanfic or whatnot, if you take something that doesn’t belong to you… it’s stealing.  You know it.  I know it.  And our mother’s all taught us that when we were 3 and took our first pack of gum from the grocery store.  The rules don’t change just because it’s words and text vs. HubbaBubba.

This is not “bullying” at all.  Bullying would be attacking her for personal or other unrelated reasons.  Bullying would be continuing to hound her when she had admitted to her breach in ethics and made restitution.  Cassie Edwards has never recognized her wrongdoing and continues to profit from it, while the authors from whom she stole are getting nothing for her use of their work.  For her books to stay in print, and for her to have more books upcoming, is a constant reminder that she has continued to profit from unethical behavior. 

I’m not a big fan of cries of “mean girls,” anyway.  It’s a way to stereotype women as being juvenile and petty, and it belittles the seriousness of a situation like this one.

Morgana - I don’t understand how this is a mean girls thing.  Plagiarism is very different from a simple mistake.  It’s a knowing act.  The person who does it takes information they know is not their own and then pass it off as if it is.  I can’t think of a worse thing for an author to do than to steal someone else’s words verbatim, which is what Edwards did.  Yes, it’s terrible that she had a stroke.  No one wants her to be ill.  But it’s also terrible that she stole someone else’s work.  That is something for which she should be ashamed and for which she should be held to account.  It’s an issue about which the writing community should be shocked and disturbed, and we should be able to say is not okay without being named as the bad guys (girls).  Expressing anger at plagiarism is all that people are doing here.  No one is getting personal or nasty.  There certainly isn’t any cyber bullying going on in this discussion.  Throwing that out there when it doesn’t exist only lessens the impact of real cases of cyber bullying.

In general terms, I think plagiarism fails to generate ongoing outrage because it only affects a few people directly.  Yes, it’s bad for us all and bad for the writing community - I know that - but human nature seems to work in such a way that we handle what’s directly in front of us.  If you’re not the victim in the sense that it was your work stolen,  you comment and move on.  That doesn’t mean you think plagiarism is good.  It just means it’s not directly on your radar screen.  I’m not saying this is a right or wrong reaction.  I just think it’s how we work with regard to many issues.  An issue like this comes up and we express our outrage and then, since we aren’t the ones dealing with lawyers and stolen material, we go on about our business.

Right on. But people defend people who do immoral/unethical acts every day. Look at how the Senate’s admitting Roland Burris, who is an amoral slimeball, unworthy of being admitted to the office of dogcatcher much less the Senate. Look at how my evil governor Rod, who appointed him, isn’t getting removed from office yet and wasn’t stopped from appointing him.

I think it’s a society-wide problem, not just a romance community problem.

All I keep thinking of, as I hear these “don’t blame the plagiarizer; it’s the fault of everyone else” arguments from the accused’s side is that we’re really discussing the literary equivalent of rape. Women don’t ask to be raped. No one asks to have their words plagiarized.

Let’s stop looking at who’s fault it is and work on changing the attitudes surrounding the problem. Only then will things change.

The person who wrote the SB that crud, was obviously overwhelmed with anger and had no intent but to do harm. They succeeded. I am certain you are very hurt indeed.

For that wound, I offer this balm:

“Doing the right thing; no matter how difficult; no matter what the consequences- is meaningful.”  Fr Michael Dodd

You did the right thing.

And I’m going to say this again from the last long discussion about the CE issue.

She was not a sweet gray-haired grandma when she first began taking other’s words…continuously. Sweet, I’m sure, but not of ill or failing health.

At the time of the Nora R, JD scandal over just this issue, she could not have been blind to it. By that time she was a well established author with an agent, lawyers, and publishing house lawyers, editors, and the like. While the general masses might have missed the whole thing at the time, those deep within the industry would have known. Internet or not, glad-hand meetings and publishing mags existed then and still exist to this day.

For CE’s fanbase to accept that she was unaware of any unethical behaviour on her part is a slam against her. To suppose that she hasn’t the brains of even a high school student (and some will argue younger ages than that), is a disservice to her and her intellect. This was ongoing, not just a mere slip once or twice. Do you really feel she was that dodgy all those years?

Sigh.

What surprises me, though, is the fact that no tribal activists have called her or her publishers to task.

Actually, I saw a fair amount of commentary about the racism in her books on some livejournal communities like Deadbrowalking and DebunkingWhite.  Just because no organized protest was made doesn’t mean nobody noticed.

I also think the tribal community is so very used to this kind of representation that people decide it’s not worth making a fuss about, or they’d never get anything productive done.  Pick your battles, and all that.

I’m on a board which deals with plagiarism. The bottom line is - it’s wrong. You shouldn’t steal from others. And when you’re caught? You should be ashamed. I see no shame no remorse - and I find that the most disturbing thing of all.

If you haven’t already, please advise RT Orlando conference staff about the not-so-veiled threat made at the end of the post and ask for appropriate security. 

Stay safe, Bitches.

Agreeing with the “be careful” advice, wholeheartedly.

On the tribal activism—or lack thereof—over CE’s continued abuse and stereotyping of Native Americans, I wonder if part of the indifference comes from the whole, “well, it’s just trashy romances, not meaningful stuff” Like, say, sports mascots.

To Morgana: but of course, this is bullying! The entire Bitchery has shown up to CE’s home, chanting for a lynching mob to come and get her.

*sigh*

It’s so disheartening to see that there are people within the academic and writing community who don’t seem to get what plagiarism is.

During the height of last year’s discussions, I had a self-professed middle-school teacher (self-professed ‘cause I don’t know this woman from the man in the moon; for all I know, it’s a three legged alien from Jupiter) tell me that if one comma was added to a sentence then it wasn’t plagiarism.

And this person is teaching youngsters about the moral and ethical evils of plagiarism? No wonder these kids get to college and pull the stunts they do.

(Don’t even get me started on the “poorly integrated research” crack by a published writer)

I also think the tribal community is so very used to this kind of representation that people decide it’s not worth making a fuss about, or they’d never get anything productive done.  Pick your battles, and all that.

Probably the same reason that the Scots clans don’t sue the authors of “highland” novels, or the descendants of some of the nobility don’t take the authors of some Regencies to court.
Mind you, I remember the family of First Officer Murdoch taking the makers of “Titanic” to court and winning.

If the Edwards fanbabes attend Sarah’s workshop at RT and a thief steals their wallets and their ID’s, is it Sarah’s fault?

Theft of intellectual property, ie:  one of the most dearl of a person’s being, their words, should NEVER be condoned.

I want to write something pithy and insightful, but I’m too angry at the idea that someone is trying to blame the SBs for Edwards’ stroke. Yes, it is sad that she has suffered a stroke, but it is NOT the fault of the SBs. The SBs did not make Edwards take other people’s words and claim them as her own, nor are they the originators of the idea that to do so is immoral and wrong.

I’m also infuriated by possibility that any action that the correspondent and their cronies take at the seminar could make others who may have thought about speaking up about plagiarism think twice.

Plagiarism is wrong. Profiting from it (in money, popularity, cookies, whatever) is wrong. Aiding and abetting it is wrong. Supporting it is wrong. Trying to hush it up / sweep it under the carpet / confuse the issue by calling the victim/reporter of plagiarism mean (girls) is wrong.

Grrrr.

You know, when I was in high school, teachers warned me against plagiarism in exams or else I would fail my grades and my future to get in any college or work (GCSEs awarded from high school work go under scrutiny of almost every employer in the country).
Now in college, if I plagiarised I not only lose marks, but also completely squandered my chances in getting to work in a museum, my time working for it, and would be awarded with nothing but a debt of £7,000 from the government (WHILE my family is paid in dollars) JUST for paying my tuition.

As far as I recall, Cassie’s work is STILL on the rack, she got money out of it, and she still has a cult following. HOW could she suffer a stroke?

I second that about having extra security at the Orlando event.

You are there to give your panel, not be harassed by troublemakers with an agenda.

The audience is there to learn and be entertained by you, not be used as a tool by troublemakers.

You two did the right thing. It could not have been easy. 

If some morally selective twits have a problem with that, then they should ask the convention for their own panel slot so they can try to convince writers and potential writers why plagiarism is such an advantage to one’s reputation, not to mention a great career-building move.

I’m not a big fan of cries of “mean girls,” anyway.  It’s a way to stereotype women as being juvenile and petty, and it belittles the seriousness of a situation like this one.

Sazzat
You can be a self actualized, mature, feminist and still be kind and compassinate. The argument that you have to hostile and abrasive only serves to negate the work of strong women.
As for the seriousness of this situation, perhaps a bit of perspective is in order.

Don’t take other people’s stuff.  It seems so obvious.

Do you suppose maybe plagarism has become ever more acceptable because most people take other people’s stuff all the time—downloading music, sharing datafiles, reposting videos, etc.?  Maybe that helps foster a false sense of ‘what’s the harm?’

Sadly, some people will never get the concept of how something like this is wrong.

If they stand in WalMart and watch someone stuffing books from the shelves under their coats, eek, STEALING.

But the words within those books, FAIR GAME.

Sigh

I just wanted to mention for those who were talking about how editors can’t be expected to read every book and catch every instance of plagiarism: there are computer programs for this. You type in any suspect text and get hits if it matches published or online material.  I used one such program when I teaching college, and if my department could afford it I’m sure all the larger publishing houses can, too.

Morgana,

I have seen plenty of compassion towards Ms. Edwards in this discussion.  Many have expressed concern over her stroke and subsequent ill health. 

However, it does not take away the fact that she REPEATEDLY plagarized other authors, has refused to acknowledge said plagarism and never had the decency to show a single shred of remorse for her actions.  That is very serious and worthy of discussion, and IMHO, scorn from folks who understand the depth of her actions. 

She stole.  She lied by omission.  And yet, she still profits from her actions.  Yes, that is worth a little scorn and derision as far as I’m concerned. 

I won’t even go into what I think of the fucktards who have the balls to blame the victims and whistleblowers.

At least, that’s the perspective of this self actualized, mature, feminist.

Jessa, you said

“Do you suppose maybe plagarism has become ever more acceptable because most people take other people’s stuff all the time—downloading music, sharing datafiles, reposting videos, etc.?  Maybe that helps foster a false sense of ‘what’s the harm?’”

What you are talking about is a bit different. But still relevant.

In the instances you are talking about, a person is sharing the artist’s work, not messing with it a bit and claiming it as his/her own.

When you download a new song, remix it a “hair”, give no acknowledgement to the original creators, sell it for profit without seeking approval of the original group, then yeah, you step over the line.

The sharing of files and what not is a bit different than remixing an artist’s work for profit and claiming it as your own. A different animal.

Hmm, hope I expressed that right. LOL

Jessa, I think you’re right about that one.  In the case of say, a store, when something is physically stolen, you can immediately see the impact.  With plagiarism it’s more faceless because you can’t see how the person whose words have been stolen is affected.  In many cases people probably figure that the person whose words they used will never even know. 

Anne Fadiman’s got a great essay on plagiarism (in “Ex Libris” I believe, but I might have my essay collections mixed and it’s in her newer collection, “At Large and At Small”)  in which she talks about how her mother had her wartime correspondences nicked by someone else who then published them under his own name.  The only time her mother got to see her writing in print was under someone else’s name.  That definitely put a fine point on things in my book.

I’ve had strokes.  Numerous, actually, because of a terminal lung disease from which I suffer.  They are nobody’s “fault.”

Perhaps years of living a lie had consequences? 

I really don’t think any legitimate writer is worried about the opinion of a fan who rabidly defends somebody who steals the work of others and becomes belligerant and hostile when caught. 

I don’t see this as cruel irony.  I see it as the universe tweaking her soul and asking her to pay attention.

I hope she listens and heals soon.  No unkindness intended… the world will keep teaching you until you learn.

The argument that you have to hostile and abrasive only serves to negate the work of strong women.

Oh, please. There has been hostility and abrasiveness throughout this debacle.

The funny part is that it’s largely coming from the people who defended Edwards—see the letter above for a classic example.

Was there, perhaps, a tiny modicum of glee in finding out that the books were plagiarized? For me, I mean? Yes. I admit it. I’m probably a horrible person. But I have never felt that Edwards “deserved” an illness—just recognition of her bad acts. Same with everyone who does wrong. Apparently, if we’re not mealy-mouthed pansies, going on about how we shouldn’t speak ill of anyone, we’re hostile and abrasive. Yeah, that’s a feminist argument.

On a totally different note, every time I see Edwards’s books in the store—or, God forbid, a display of them—I have the overwhelming urge to grab a pen and paper and stick a note reading, “This book is plagiarized” inside the covers.

Also, speaking of the reactions of the various tribes to Edwards’s books…when the scandal first broke last year, I was home in Washington state. I grabbed the list of suspect passages Candy had sent me and ran off to the nearest library, which happens to be the library on the reservation of the S’klallam tribe. What did I find there? Two Edwards novels. (Didn’t find the plagiarized passages till after I got back to my university library, either.)

I must have been a plagiarist - I had a stroke in 2004.

Anne Fadiman’s got a great essay on plagiarism (in “Ex Libris” I believe, but I might have my essay collections mixed and it’s in her newer collection, “At Large and At Small”) in which she talks about how her mother had her wartime correspondences nicked by someone else who then published them under his own name

I’ve read Ex Libris (thrilled to see that she has a new essay collection, by the way!) and I thought the essay on her mother was about how her mom wrote the bulk of the book, and is credited on the title page, but the male author got the majority of the acknowledgment. Not really plagiarism so much as a sexist literary community only recognizing the contribution of the male writer. But I could be misremembering this, too. :)

Snarkhunter, you’re probably right - I keep lending out my copies of “Ex Libris” and then having to order new ones, so I was posting from memory there as I’m between copies at the moment.  The part that stuck in my head was when she mentioned how her mother had to read her dispatches in a book with someone else’s name on it. 

I’m thrilled to hear that you’re a fan too!  Definitely check out “At Large and At Small” - it’s just as good as “Ex Libris” though the topics are on more general topics rather than books. 

Strangely when I googled to try to figure out which volume the plagiarism essay was in, I turned up an article talking about how one of Anne’s anecdotes from “Ex Libris” was stolen by another writer a la Neale Donald Walsch.  *sigh* 

http://gawker.com/news/new-york-times-book-review/in-the-nytbr-writers-are-now-plagiarizing-about-books-246924.php

every time I see Edwards’s books in the store—or, God forbid, a display of them—I have the overwhelming urge to grab a pen and paper and stick a note reading, “This book is plagiarized” inside the covers.

Me too! With a post it note!

This is SO familiar to me. No, JD didn’t have a stroke, but people were appraised of and blamed for her health. Her health came up pretty quickly, as I recall. And people said the community should leave her alone and investigate how it happened. Which was impossible, because any discussion of it led to being told to leave her alone. And there were attacks on NR and those supporting her. (Ah, cane of candy, the last but not the least)

Nothing will change. But I say to SB yes on the extra security and I say to anyone blaming the publishers - where does personal responsibility lie? If I, the author, am not to blame for the words I place on the page then who is to blame for anything? There is no malpractice, there is no theft, there is no fraud. As long as the person doing the harm is not the person responsible, there is no wrong. Red Dress theory.

I wish CE better health, I do not wish her anything else, good or bad. As long as she writes her own books, I have no problem with her.

On a totally different note, every time I see Edwards’s books in the store—or, God forbid, a display of them—I have the overwhelming urge to grab a pen and paper and stick a note reading, “This book is plagiarized” inside the covers.

Ooh-ooh! I want those stickers. I will happily stick them ON the cover whenever I come across her books. Though…I suppose, technically, I’d be guilty of vandalism. *sigh* Oh well. I still like the sentiment even if we can’t carry it out.

I want those stickers. I will happily stick them ON the cover whenever I come across her books. Though…I suppose, technically, I’d be guilty of vandalism.

That’s why I was thinking post it notes. If it’s easily removable, it doesn’t count as vandalism, right?

If I show up at the RT convention with Savage blahblah written out longhand, can I get a contract? I’m not doing anything wrong, am I? and those women who are going to slap down SB will even help me, right?

I did know about CE, JD, but not about Jennifer Crusie. I won’t be buying anything by her again, despite having really loved (and got another friend to buy as well!) Agnes and the Hitman.

In the UK, it’s certainly illegal, and someone can be sued for breach of copyright.

Look, you are confusing copyright violation with plagiarism.

Plagiasism is not illegal (Except in academic situations.) You will not be fined, sent to jail or convicted of plagiarism.

You can be fined, sent to jail or convicted of copyright violation. But usually you are sued, not prosecuted.

If I quote Jane Eyre verbatim in large chunks in my novel, it’s not copyright violation, but it is plagiarism.

If I write fanfiction about Stargate Atlantis, it *might* be a copyright violation but is almost certainly not any kind of plagiarism as I am not using other people’s words and pretending they are my own.

Sometimes plagiarism is also copyright violation, and sometimes it’s not. In Edwards’ case, we have both situations.

Can we, after a year of discussing this, try to keep the two concepts straight? It doesn’t help when we don’t even understand what we’re complaining about.

Actually, I saw a fair amount of commentary about the racism in her books on some livejournal communities like Deadbrowalking and DebunkingWhite.  Just because no organized protest was made doesn’t mean nobody noticed.

And going by past behaviour in the romance community, if someone *did* point it out, then someone else would wheel out a Native American who wasn’t bothered by it, to justify it and slam anyone who was upset. Then the original complainant would be accused of not being Native *enough* for their words to matter, and the whole thing would end with that person being accused of being a racist for even mentioning it in the first place.

And then some other person, who lives to stir shit, would say, why didn’t the Native American complain about the way Muslims are portrayed in all the Sheikh stories, and at that point, the Native American who has been trying to raise consciousness over and over about the tokenism and misrepresentations of minority cultures, will realise that white people don’t bloody care about these issues at all, they just love to get their digs in so no one will never take real problems seriously. And then the Native American decides trying to educate idiots is a waste of their time and energy.

Certainly what happened during the Jewel of Medina thing, and during the matter raised oh so innocently above.

Mind you, educating idiots about anything tends to be an exhausting and futile business, as the SBs have found over the plagiarism business.

  every time I see Edwards’s books in the store—or, God forbid, a display of them—I have the overwhelming urge to grab a pen and paper and stick a note reading, “This book is plagiarized” inside the covers.

Me too! With a post it note!

*raises hand* is it really bad form that i have been doing this, and get a gleeful little thrill when i do? *g* there’s a barnes and noble in a little town in california’s central valley whose employees, at least once every couple of months, have to go through the romance aisle, find the scattered cassie edwards novels (i at least don’t take them out of the romance section), turn them spine out, and remove post-its that say “plagiarist”, “thief”, “these words are stolen”, “not an original work”, “based on-no, wait is someone else’s story” and “what about the ferrets?”.

i try to keep it down, cause it’s “my” store, and i like shopping there and like the employees and don’t want to cause too much extra work for them. i wouldn’t want to get caught at it, but i’m almost hoping i do so i can enlighten them as to the reason. i also engage anyone i see picking up a cassie edwards novel while i’m browsing, and tell them why they don’t want to spend their money on it.

i guess my actions could be called “mean” and “hounding”, but-wait!- no, nevermind. thought i felt a twinge of sympathy there, but it was just gas. :)

spamword: hair79 why yes, my hair has been approximately 79 different colors. i’m telling you bitches, this thing is eerie!

i wouldn’t want to get caught at it, but i’m almost hoping i do so i can enlighten them as to the reason.

Wouldnn’t it just be easier to tell them what your issue is? And how much it bothers you as a customer to see what they’re stocking?

Seems to me your actions are pestering the wrong people, and only creating a nuisance. Edwards is the problem, not the book store staff.

Wouldnn’t it just be easier to tell them what your issue is? And how much it bothers you as a customer to see what they’re stocking?

Seems to me your actions are pestering the wrong people, and only creating a nuisance. Edwards is the problem, not the book store staff.

the bookstore staff rarely has any say in what the store stocks, especially a big chain like b&n;. which is why i email corporate monthly doing exactly what you suggest, and telling them why they shouldn’t stock this author. and there again, big chain store, not much effect.
as much as “pestering” the staff, whom i’ve overheard being pleasantly bemused in their speculation, i think my actions cut right to the source, causing whoever finds and picks up that edwards novel to wonder what the deal is, and thus potentially robbing her of an easy sale. and i’m all about not lining the pockets of a thief. you protest this your way, i’ll do it mine.

I did know about CE, JD, but not about Jennifer Crusie. I won’t be buying anything by her again, despite having really loved (and got another friend to buy as well!) Agnes and the Hitman.

I thought I’d been following this thread OK, but now I’m wondering if I missed something. Jennifer Crusie hasn’t plagiarised anything. I do remember that she made a comment in 2008, in response to the plagiarism allegations against Cassie Edwards, which was controversial. If you’re referring to that, have you also seen her post over at her own blog? She explained there that she felt she’d expressed herself very badly at

a blog that does very good reporting and reviewing, albeit savagely with a strong undercurrent of S&D;[snide and demean]. This site has one author that it returns to regularly to hold up for ridicule. It’s the only thing about this site that I don’t like, but I’ve never said anything. And that’s where I screwed up. I should have said something. I should not have sat at home with my laptop and watched the repeated humiliation of this author without saying, “What did she do to you guys, run over your dog?” Then they posted comparisons of her work with non-fiction sources, and it appears clear that she lifted her information word-for-word from those sources which is plagiarism. Normally, I’d have said, “She goes down;” plagiarism is serious and rampant in our industry, and any time we can make the point that it’s wrong, we should. But I read it and thought, “Are they ever going to leave this woman alone?” and posted the run-over-your-dog comment, which was taken as a refutation that plagiarism is a serious thing, and which I deserved because I was, once again, going for snide-and-derision instead of making myself clear. So I went back in and said, “Plagiarism is bad, but what you’re doing to his author is a crime, too,” or words to that effect. Then I left the site. Haven’t been back since. Not going back. Because while it’s a great site by smart passionate women who love romance, I don’t like the S&D;there. I wish them the best, but I’m not their reader, which I’m sure has been pointed out in the comments by now, several times, loudly.

and Candy contributed to the comments thread, and gave her point of view:

When you posted your running-over-our-dog comment, notice how I didn’t jump all over your ass. I laughed, and agreed that yeah, Edwards has been our pinata for a while, and I even felt kind of bad about it. See, if people point out something about me, I’ll cop to it if I think they have a point–otherwise I’ll argue the crap out of it, because you can take a girl out of Debate Team, but you can’t take the Debate Team out of the girl. You and Rich and all the other people who’ve felt oogy about the way we’ve treated Edwards have every right to feel oogy and every right to tell us we’re being cruel. You’re right. I’ve been a stone-cold mean-ass bitch about the Cassie Edwards novels. Do I think I’m justified in saying what I’ve said about them in the past? To be honest: Yes. (I don’t think people who haven’t read them can understand. Which sounds obnoxious, like we’re some sort of sorority with some kind of hazing requirement, but I don’t know how else to put it.) Will I stop now? Yes, but not because I’m a penitent stone-cold mean-ass bitch, but because once it became clear to me just how pervasive the unattributed usage issue was, it stopped being funny. It stopped being about bad taste and it started becoming a ethical issue. Bad taste = funny. Ethics? Not so much.

I did know about CE, JD, but not about Jennifer Crusie. I won’t be buying anything by her again, despite having really loved (and got another friend to buy as well!) Agnes and the Hitman.

How did Crusie get into this conversation?  I know she posted something within hours of the story breaking, basically saying “why are you picking on Edwards again?”  (And I have to admit, my first reaction that day, before I understood the situation, was “another post about Cassie Edwards?”  She was the regular butt of jokes around here before the plagiarism was revealed.)  Lumping her in with Edwards and Dailey implies that she is a plagiarist.  As far as I know, no one has ever made that claim.  If you take offense at her reaction that’s fine, but please be careful when you group people together.  Plagiarism and disagreeing with the popular opinion are two very different sins.

Sorry I lost all respect for Jennifer Crusie with her blog posts.  Basically she can dish it out and it is “funny”, but others are being snide and mean.  She tried to shift the focus off plagerism being a serious issues to those mean girls. 

Also it was just sickening that some of CE fans were taking potshots at Nora Roberts.  She has always been the epitome of professionalism. 

Plagerism disrespects the reader by its dishonesty.  It is a slap in the face to the victim and the readers.  Anyone who supports plagerism shows the same disrespect for the reader-it’s like giving the reader the middle finger.  How can people respect the romance community if large portions can’t respect themselves?

Is there a wee bit of the green eyed monster taking over? Would people be as angry if Cassie Edwards was not the author of a zillion books. Just putting that out there.

Also I do think that it is wrong to copy other peoples work (Of course this is a no brainer) but as far as the other authors needing to be compensated or feeling hard done by. Who are these other authors? Were they romance writers or even in a genre likely to be read by CE readers.

No one has ever ripped off my work (shocking I know) but if they did I would a) be ever so pleased that someone other than my mother and advisor read my work and b) want to send the offender a list of writers far better than me to steal from.

And another minor point, she was not stealing plots or even scenes from other writers. She took research about tribes and used it without citing it but as a fiction writer is she expected to provide a work cited page?